The Ringer NBA Show - Breaking Down the Top Forwards in the NBA Draft | Upside High

Episode Date: June 16, 2022

J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks start their conversation talking about why teams have been failing at maximizing picks 6 through 10 in the NBA draft in recent years. They then dissect, comp, and speculate the futures of some of their favorite forwards in the upcoming draft, specifically Keegan Murray (8:55), Tari Eason (26:44), and Jeremy Sochan (41:03). Hosts: J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks Production Assistance: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. We're not just reacting to the NBA playoffs on my podcast. We're also doing it on the Ringer NBA show and the Mismatch podcast. They are coming after some of these NBA playoff games. Check it out, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday nights on the Ringer podcast Network. Folks, basketball, very good, always good. Year round. There's always something to talk about. And I, you know, there's no person that I'd rather talk about basketball with than Jonathan Charks. John, how are you doing? I'm not doing as well as you with your beautiful tie-dye shirt. I'll tell you that. Yeah, tie-dye shirt, Blue Jay's hat. I'm kind of, I got it. It's groovy and funky over here. This is upside high, by the way. My name's Jay Kyle Mann. If you want to just call me Kyle Mann, you can do that as well. This is a show where we talk about the youth movement in the basketball world on all fronts. And the front that's most interesting to us at this time of the year is the NBA draft. we're going to be talking about a specific player group and a portion of the draft,

like in the draft order, before we do that. John really quickly, have you been watching the finals? Did you have any quick kind of fly-by thoughts on that? I mean, of course, you know, we're running low on basketball, Kyle. We've got to make the most for this long off season. You know, got to store away all these basketball games and start memory. Yeah, maximum two games left. We got game six.

I watched game five with our esteemed podcast guy, Ben Cruz. the night. I was the good luck charm. I talked all through the game. I'm sure that they love that because I didn't have a rooting interest. I was that guy, you know? Are you like that whenever you're rooting for Texas? Like, do you need to be around people who have the same interest level as you? You know what I mean? Because if it's a big game, if there's somebody next to me that's just talking about God knows what during the game, I have considered strangling those people in the past. Are you picky about your viewing experience for your team? If we're talking about a championship, then yeah, like this is serious business, for sure. Regular season, first.

couple rounds of the playoffs, you know, the adults, but talking about a championship. Right, right, right. I'm pretty picky as well. We're going to mainly focus on the draft here. You can get, there's all kinds of incredible finals coverage. I know we've had people up there at the games. Bill's been at the games and done some really incredible, vulnerable postgame shows. Cudos to him for doing that. I don't know. I would have done that every single one of them. Brought back some painful memories of bad losses in my lifetime. But let's focus on the draft today. So we want to talk about the forwards, basically. At the top this year, we've kind of had bigs.

This is kind of a big forwards who can create. How would you describe, is there commonality between the top three guys? We're not going to go into depth, but it seems like at the top, that type of player is what is being valued the highest in this draft. Yeah, and we're just talking, this draft is a very unusual level of skilled six foot 10 plus players who kind of been highly viewed this whole time. Obviously, Chet, Javari, and Paolo. And then, so we've gone through them a lot. We had a pod last week about the two guards, the most upside. Jaden Ivy and Shane and Sharp.

And now we're moving more into the forwards. And this is kind of, I think, where the draft gets really, really interesting. Kind of guys being projected into the five, six, seven, ten later lottery range. Because I was going over the last few. Like, if you take out 2021, you look at six through 10 in the last couple drafts, there's some absolute crime scenes happening, Kyle. Like, it's unbelievable some of the level of, I guess, the poor play that's in the late lottery a lot of times.

What's your favorite shit show, 6 through 10 range? Do you have one that's particularly, because I have one. I mean, I'm looking at 2019 and you're going, Jared Culver, Kobe White, Jackson Hayes, Rui Hachamara, Cam Reddish. I mean, that's tough. There's still hope for Jackson. I mean, Jackson is young, number one, and has shown a lot of. lot of glimmers that have people really interested. I know his upside. But the other guys,

yeah, absolutely. Reddish is sort of a reclamation project at this point. So is Culver. Kobe White came on a little bit. Rui, similar. He's just kind of had an odd up and down. I was going to say, 16, they didn't really screw it up so badly. 15. Willie, Emmanuel Moodier, Stanley Johnson, Justice Winslow, and then you get into like Kaminsky. Pretty tough. Why do you think that we keep screwing? this part of the draft up every year because it seems like if you go through year to year, this is something we may be touched on in the past, but it's pretty interesting when it comes to how we think about who we should be picking, like the mentality that teams have. Why do you think

this keeps happening? Because in the 10 to 15 range, you go year by year and it's like, wow, there was a, there was like a dude just sitting there. What's the hesitation? Why do you think people keep making mistakes in this range. I think the best example of that, Kyle, if you're talking about like 10 to 12 versus like six to nine, is actually 2018. So 2018, it goes Mo Bamba, Wendell Carter, Colin Sexton, Kevin Knox, six through nine.

And then it goes Mikhail Bridges, SGA, Miles Bridges, 10 to 12. I think the really big picture of it is, more often than not, this is tier two, tier three of players. And so often draft, they'll say, okay, well, the draft falls off around four or five. And it's like, yes, every draft pretty much does. Because after that point, there's no longer as many safe picks.

Like the floors of guys start lowering a lot. And I think this is the range where it's like you've got to be free to like expand your brain a bit, galaxy brain in a bit. And you have to kind of drop the consensus. Like in the top five picks, there's some safety. crowds going on, right? Everyone can kind of like kind of this year. Everyone kind of recognizes, okay, Chet, Jabari, Paolo. These guys probably aren't going to bust. Like there's a lot of debate who's the best player in that group, but their skill sets, their physical tools are so unique that these guys aren't probably going to bust barring something unusual happening. But you're getting the six,

seven, eight, nine, ten man, anything can happen, it seems like. Yeah. And in this draft, I mean, I would lump Ivy in there as safe. I'd be shocked if he busted. You mentioned 18. I mean, some of it obviously is a function of drafts are just, some drafts are just deeper, but in the risk that they take, you were talking about, like, Sexton and Knox. And I'm trying to think if there's any kind of commonality about, like, what types of mistakes were we making? I know, like, with Knox, you're thinking, like, big shooter with, or he just kind of had the appearance of somebody that could be a big shooter, maybe turned into a good, like, flexible finisher. It seems like a lot of the times the guys that end up, um, in that range,

in that like 10 to 14, 10 to 15 range are like good college players that people are unsure about upside, you know? And my theory is just that like sometimes you have a top 10 pick, but it's not in the top five. And you think to yourself, I have a top 10 pick. This is the type of thing I should be trying to get. I should be trying to get like a superstar upside type player. And maybe that leads teams to make mistakes reaching for maybe body types. I know with like Emmanuel, you know, Moodye, Willie, it's maybe guys like that have physical profiles that don't necessarily put it together. Dennis, you know, Dennis Smith Jr., another one. Do you think that there's any kind of pattern there, like a mentality? Because why would we keep, like, putting these guys that are, like,

established college players that are going to be good role players? Is that what it is? Do you think that like teams just get overzealous to reach for somebody with Star Upside and they pass on somebody with like solid role player like potential? That's an interesting theory. I think in the 2018 drafts a good example of that. I think sometimes we chase youth a little too much. So Kevin Knox, okay, he was considered the high upside freshman. And then Mikhail and Miles Bridges,

they were kind of glumped together as like solid role playing, older established college players, maybe not the high upside of this young, blue chip, six foot nine swing forward. But it didn't really work out like that. And sometimes star potential can be found in older prospects. It's not always just freshmen who have star potential, even though sometimes we put older prospects into these buckets of role playing. I think that's a good transition to talking to some of the forwards we want to like Gilly get into in this week in this episode's pod. I think starting with Keegan Murray from Iowa, who is one of the more

interesting players in the draft. And the more I've studied him, the more I kind of starting to like them. Oh, so did you have some movement kind of in your feelings on him? Where did you start and where are you now? Well, just, okay, so I guess to start with. So Keegan Murray, Iowa star. He was a role player as a freshman. And then this year he really exploded as a sophomore. One of the best scores in the country, six foot eight led Iowa to like one of their best seasons in a long time first team all-American was pretty much dominant from day one to the end of the season yeah yeah very productive season let's describe him as an athlete before we get going you said he's six foot eight would you say what what tier of what level of athlete for people who know nothing about him how would you

describe him athletically i would say he's probably average to slightly above average he's a guy he's a little older. He's maximized the most of his physical tools. And he's just been so insanely productive at the college level that he's really, I think he's probably seen as a safest pick. And he's usually being mocked as high as four to Sacramento and probably most likely won't fall below six to Indiana. I think you're right. I think, you know, like we said, good size. He's not like a bulky guy. He's more of, um, he doesn't really have any kind of outstanding explosiveness. I think that he moves pretty well. for his size. He seemed like he's kind of like low-hipped. How many of you ever heard people talk about that? He doesn't strike me as somebody that can kind of bend and contort. He's not like

really elastic. He's a little bit more stiff is a tough word. He's just not as flexible, I would say. But like you were saying, he had a crazy productive year this year. There were some interesting ways that he went about doing that. Keegan's like offensive profile is pretty unique. Talk a little bit about that to get us going. First off, I really respect his stat line this year. So this guy averaged 23.5 points and 1.5 assists a game. Like this is a man who is here to get buckets. And you've got to like, that's a ratio. I think it's like 10 shots every time he passed the ball basically. And like that initially was kind of concerning for me. But the more I watched his game, the more the player he kind of reminded me of was T.J. Ward and that this guy scored

an absolute ton in college, but he didn't hold the ball while doing it. Like Keegan Murray made sure, like either I'm going to shoot the ball or I'll move it to someone else, and I'll find other ways to score. He can cut really well off the ball. He's a really good shooter. He's got great touch. He makes the most, you're kind of saying he's not a great athlete, but he makes a takes the most of his athletic ability, he kind of just finds ways to get buckets. I think that's probably the easiest way to say it is he finds ways to get buckets. And I think that reminds me of TJ is that in a similar way when TJ Warren was in college, his freshman year he was a sixth man and his sophomore year he was like the star.

And in both situations, he scored crazy efficiently. And Keegan's the same way. Kegan shot over 60% from two both years in college as a, as a guy that, a really small role than as a guy as in a monster role. And I just tells you this is a guy who just finds ways to score. Yeah, I was telling you, I would imagine defending Keegan is like when you,

the comparison I made to you is like imagine going to a place that you know is like an expensive resort that's going to like nickel and dime you and paper cuts you to death with charges. And you go in there going, all right, we're not going to spend this amount of money on this. We're going to prevent this from happening.

And then you just, when you get to the end of the trip, what you wanted to be like an $800 trip ended up being like a $1,200, or $1,200, you know. And the way he does that, you're absolutely right. If you go down and you look at like the primary modes of offense for him just going by synergy, he averages that amount of points on that efficiency in transition, spot up, post up, off screen. You have to go way down the list before you start getting to like the on ball dominant stuff and the isolation and pick and roll stuff, which we'll talk about more as we talk about the other guys.

The thing that reminds me of TJ, though, when you would watch TJ, a lot of scores are like, I have the ball, you're going to have to counter what I'm doing with the ball as I come towards you, whether it be a dribble move or, you know, here it comes. If you think about like the Jason Tatums, the Lucas, the KDs, the dominant on ball scores in the world. He's similar to TJ in that your job is never done. Like, sort of the offball stuff, I always call it anti-usage. He is affecting the offense because of the way he moves. TJ used to get the ball, and he was so patient. I remember he would catch it high. If he didn't like the matchup, if he didn't like the angle,

he would throw it back to the guard. And they had this sort of like understood thing to their offense where T.J would be like, no, I'm going to go repost immediately. Or I'm going to cut to the other side. I had this stat. He's really, really good. And this is a thing you see with forwards and transition in the NBA is early clock transition mismatch hunting.

he's great at it. He would like, so 155 college players this year logged 100 or more post-ups. And Keegan had the lowest turnover percentage, the highest field goal percentage, and the most free throws generated. So an insanely, insanely efficient, like opportunistic mismatch hunter in the post-up game. I like what you're saying about the casino, because I feel like Keegan would be like king of the overdraft fee. It's like he's sitting you for two bucks every time.

And like, wait a minute, all of a sudden I just got $100 to overdraft these because I bought $20, like $1 thing. Like, what the heck just happened? And that's Keegan Murray because he's scoring without holding the ball and just a thousand small cuts. It's like two points here, two points here, and one, quick three, two points. He accumulates buckets more than he scores them. That's what I was thinking about. It's like a cable company. You're like, what is this?

When did I don't remember this? How does he have 25 points? And that was kind of his offensive season. But it's not just limited to that. Yeah, I mean, he's just like, he's here to get buckets. Like, he's not here to mess around. He's just like, I'm here to get buckets. This is what I do.

I'm going to find a way to score no matter what role I'm in. And I think that's what excites me most about Keegan Murray. Like when I was first looking at him, I was a little concerned because I'm like, man, if this guy's going to be like a primary offensive player, he's not really creating for others. he's not really a mismatch guy in the sense of like, I don't think, okay, at 6-8-220, he can dominate, dictate mismatches at the NBA level as easily as he did in college. So you can't, he's not really a clear-out guy.

But I think that is the value of him is that you can plug and play somewhere. And even if you have primary guys who score a lot, Kegan's still going to find a way to get buckets without messing up the flow of your offense. And that's a huge part of drafting guys in this range. is finding guys who fit in next to stars. I mean, you start with like Sacramento at four. And like Sacramento at four is a tough team to draft to because you've got Deeran Fox, ball dominant point guard,

not really a floor spacer. You got DeMontas Sabonis, big time post-up score, not really a floor spacer. There's not a lot of room for other guys to eat on that team, right? If you're a guy who needs the ball and you're playing with Sabonis and Fox, they're kind of out of luck. Those guys, there's just not that much more room

for anybody else in the offense. But Keegan doesn't really need the ball. So he's still going to get buckets playing with those guys, even though they're not cut to run a lot of plays for. He can function as like a low-touch, high-efficiency player. I was looking at assist to usage, which, you know, for, I mean, Iowa, I think it's sort of a question of what can you do versus, like, what should you, what do they want you to be doing?

And that's, you know, in college we see sometimes role, as dictated by the personnel around you can affect what happens. Like Chet is a big example of that. We knew he could do more. I don't know that he's like a great passer. The passing upside in terms of like him seeing when he's created imbalance,

I think he's got a little ways to go on that front. I was kind of talking about drafting him at four. We should also mention that he's like, he's a really, really dependable shooter. Not like a lightning quick, you know, three point shooter, but he can definitely space the floor. for a team that has existing offense that this guy is going to be able to create and get baskets

and help you out in a number of ways without like needing the ball per 100 possessions this year he's shot 8.4 threes and he shot nearly 40 percent he can shoot it with movement pretty well um my question for you in terms of like kegan murray what do you think about taking him at four does he i think it becomes more of a conversation of is he so safe that like i'm not really i'm not going to willing to take him there versus other players. I don't know. I wouldn't take him that high because I just don't. The upside is the question. You know, this show's called upside. That's why we're here. That's what we get excited about. What do you think his upside in terms of like growing as an offensive player is? Do you see him moving into more of an on ball creator role the way, you know, TJ, how did TJ change is as a good

way to sort of compare this? What do you, what do you think about Keegan? Where could he go? I mean, I think Kegan for me is like the bar, like when I was like making like my top 10 list. It's like, I'm not going to rank anyone above Keegan, who I don't think has a lot of upside, because I know he's a pretty safe pick, right? Like, if I draft Keegan Murray, I'm bidding a solid NBA player, probable starter on a decent team for 10 years. I think, one, I would worry about his passing upside because... That's a good top 10 pick. I mean, I think he's a solid top 10.

And I think I would worry about his passing upside because we were talking about how, like, he's such a natural score without being a great athlete. And I think that combination of skills is because you're so scoring oriented. You're finding ways to score without creating a ton of mismatches. But that also kind of limits your ceiling, right? A lot of times the guys who develop as passers are guys who are dominant one-on-one scores who the defense has to collapse on because they're creating so many like wide open shots. Guys like, you know, KB, Kauai, Jason Tatum, Paul George, Chris Middleton, even.

These are guys who've improved a lot as passers in the NBA because there's such great 101 players first. I'm not sure Keegan's going to do that. And I think the concern is, okay, Keegan's going to be my third or fourth option. And if he's your third or fourth option, you want to be a really good team. You want those players to usually contribute besides scoring. And I think that's my question with Keegan is how good can he be defensively? How good can he be as a ball mover? and it's like how good can he be as a floor spacer?

Because those secondary skills, I think, are the question. I think he's not bad any of those things. Is he going to be a plus contributor if he's going to not be one or two option in office? Yeah, you can be a pretty, you know, efficient, consistent score in like one mode. We see this in the playoffs all the time, but the famous thing, like it's the Bob Myers. It's become the cliche at this point. The first thing you do is the thing that's going to be gone. That's where the passing part of it comes.

into it for me. Like you need to be able to, A, hit the shot, but you also need to be able to react and make a decision off of that. The question that you posed is interesting. It's like, do you need to have the reps on ball if you're that size to like make a like a significant leap, like a passer? The situations are different. Like we don't, you know, Katie or these are like, you know, like I said, pray the basketball rosary kind of names to even invoke. But like, like, you think about like Tatum and Katie and guys like that, they got the on ball reps. The defense was reacting to them, he's going to be passing in different situations, you know, probably getting, you know, maybe flash high post, make a pass to a cutter, catching off of, you know, attacking a

closeout. Are we confident enough in him as like a handler? Let's say he is a spacer, which we expect him to be. I think his shooting's going to translate. I'm pretty confident about that. I don't know that you could like run him off of screens and like weaponize like how fast he shoots. How confident are we in him attacking a closeout? And then also, So, you know, the post-up thing is something that he feasted on. Is that going to translate at the next level? I know that, like, he got some criticism in that tournament game for, like, disappearing. And are there examples of guys that have, like, bullied, like, mismatches like this in the past?

It's something I didn't, like, research this. But I'm just wondering about the translating of the things that he does well. And you were talking about the passing. First, the translating. Do you think it's going to translate to the NBA? I would say the translating part is probably more moving without the ball. and finding ways to score. I don't know about, yeah, the posting up

and having the offense run through him. That was more a nice feature of playing in the Big Ten. You're kind of going over his matchups in terms of the best players he faced in his position in the Big Ten. And it's like basically E.J. Liddell, who's a late first round pick. In the Big Ten, there's just not a lot of like big time three, four athletes who the kind of guys he have to face on night to night base.

in the NBA if he was getting more his offense. My initial thought with Kagan, like back earlier in the season, so he has a twin brother at Iowa named Chris Murray. And then I think I always had in the back of my mind, because they play together a lot, kind of like the Morris twins, not they're like exactly the same kind of player, but I feel like that's kind of the impact I'm expecting

along the lines of a Morris T.J. Warren type, just a solid combo form where you can score and then like not kill you in any category. And now Marcus Morris, right? He's found a really good role for himself on the Clippers. He's been on some good teams. Yeah, he's been on some good teams. I could see that.

And I think to ask you back to your original question about taking him at four. I probably wouldn't do that. I don't think I'd have him in my top five because I just don't see if you're saying the star upside. But it's just like Sacramento at four, Indiana at six. Those are probably the two teams who are most like trying to get the eight C. And I feel like drafting Kagan here is trying to get the eight-seat move for sure. My coach used to call that loser's lip. That's just a loser mentality.

That segue was not a loser. I'm not calling Indiana losers. They are all about, like, let's keep this balloon in the air. Like, bottom never fall out. It's an interesting situation for them. He has Carlisle written all over him, right? Don't you think? He's an older player.

He can play right away. He's very efficient. In that sense, yeah. Yeah. So just for reference, Kegan is, about he's going to turn he's going to be 22 when he starts now you made a really interesting point i do think we should talk about defensively i think that the athleticism is kind of as we talk about these other players we'll start to sort of draw the lines between where we think they are plus

defender in the NBA i think he is a little ways to go like i mean i think he he in like open space can show you some like vertical explosiveness with like a couple steps not super twitchy i sent you a clip of you know players got into the paint at the and got shots at the rim because i was I wouldn't play like a true five unless one got hurt and I missed it. I wouldn't consistently play like a true five. They had a really efficient offense and we'll talk more about their offense. He's not like super twitchy to the ball. How switchable do you think he'll be before we move on to these other guys?

Because we need to touch on that. I would say you could have him out there. It's probably the best way to say it. With this praise? Well, you know, in the sense of like, I don't know that he's going to be targeted. It isn't like they'd be like, okay, we've got to go, we can go at Keegan Murray for easy baskets right now. And he can be part of his scheme. I wouldn't want him to be the primary defender or maybe even the secondary defender.

Like so much of like the finals, for example, is about, okay, do we have a guy for Jason Tatum? Do we have a guy for Jalen Brown? I don't really expect Keegan to be in those conversations. But he could be out there. Yeah. He could be part of a scheme, I think is probably the best way to say. say it. This is where it gets so interesting. And we'll get into some of the other fours we're talking about in this pot is like, I think Kagan is a safer bet the next two guys we're talking

about. But if we're talking about swinging for the fences, he's not like swing for the fences pick. And that's what makes this range of the draft so compelling. It's like, well, what do you really value? What are we going at? Especially if you're Indiana at four in Sacramento at six. these are teams that have not had much lottery luck or no, isn't that. How many times do you get to buy at the apple for the start you want to go for it? Just take a safe pick. I don't know. The draft to me and I had this kind of thought process with the Shaden thing was like, this is life, you know? How do I avoid making the same mistakes over and over again?

It's hilarious that you and I had that conversation about like, ha, those idiots in 2015, morons, 2017, what were they thinking? And then we talk about these prospects and we're like, Like, well, I don't know. So we're having this conversation and we're talking about dependable versus upside. Now, the next two guys that we're going to talk about, just to let you know, there's a player from Baylor named Jeremy Sohan or LSU's Tari-Eason. We're going to dive into why you might potentially take those guys instead of Keegan Murray after this break. This guy is all over the place.

I've seen some mocks like people who are like deep draft, deep state draft nerds like the big time dorks. I'd include you in that. Losers, you know. That's fair. I can't argue that. The Kakamami draft people that tend to have like strong opinions on things have this guy high. Oh, really? That's awesome.

Well, I've seen a wide range for this player, and that's Tari Isan, who played for LSU this past season. Tari did not start for LSU, came off of the bench. You know, what do you like, just to start with? What do you like about Tari Isan? I think just to go back a bit, you were asking about like how do I not make the same mistakes over and over again. And I was going to say, neither one of us have any idea. That's obvious from our lives. If I had answered that question, Kyle, I wouldn't be sitting where I'm sitting. So Tari Isan, this is an example of what I was talking about, of like, you kind

got to expand your brain a bit. So we're talking about him right after Keegan Murray. But unless, I guess as you're saying, unless you go to some real takes men, most of the mocks have Tari kind of going like 15, early 20s. And this is a guy to me who's like screams. This to me is the guy, I've been one of the most excited players in the draft for me. The guy I'm like, this is a guy I think should be much higher in the conversation. You've been on him for a while. I pretty much demanded.

I was like, we have to talk about Tar Easton on this podcast. Like, we just have to. Most people probably have no clue who this guy is. Now, Tar Easton is, was a sophomore this past season. and six, eight. The thing that's driving it, like I said, you've been on him for a while. You told me you had him at five,

and I about ran off the road that one day when you said that. But, I mean, that's really high. The range that I've heard from people is 12 to 22, is the range where people expect him to go. Why are you so excited about him, like, specifically? What is it about Tari Isan that has you so amped up? What made your eyes pop? And what made you say that back a few months ago when you were on this early?

I think the biggest thing for me with Tari is like, he makes me laugh when I watch when I watch him play. Like I'll laugh a couple times a game just because of like the sheer brutality and physical dominance he plays with. So this guy is like listed at 6-8-215, but he plays like he's like 6-11 240 in terms of if he's a full-on freight train coming at you on both ends of the floor, you send me a great clip of him in some tournament game where he's dribbling. and he bumps the guy at the top of the free throw line and as he's driving and one shoulder bump

and the guy probably moves eight feet he moves from the free throw line to the bottom of the block at least six right like he is moving guys like in terms of physical dominance at the college level for a perimeter player it's very very rare the things that tarry does i'd say number one the measurements are the key thing we need to touch here too. The key thing about the clip that you're talking about is that he barely reacted to that. That was the thing. You watch some guys kind of wind up to take to give a hit. Tari is just like moving through life and causing wreckage just by being himself. Like I don't even know if he noticed that he knocked that guy. Yes. I've been calling him like touchdown Tari Esson because he plays like a football player. And it's just like wherever he goes, bodies are flying.

And so like number one, it's that physical dominance. And that's like, really stands out to me in terms of, okay, if I'm trying to, if I'm looking for a guy with star potential, if you're an elite athlete, that always helps. And you combine being an elite athlete with elite statistical production. So like there's some guys who are an elite athlete, they're still figuring it out. They're not really should be on the court. They're getting by their physical tools. Tari is absolutely dominating people. So I'm, and on both ends of the floor for that matter. So his steel and block. rates are historically great for a college player.

Especially for a 6 foot 8 player. I looked it up in terms of his percentage of steals and blocks. And I think one thing's holding him back. It's kind of as simple as he didn't start at LSU. He came off the bench. So it's like his raw numbers aren't crazy. More on that later. On a permanent basis, he's racking up steals and blocks.

I think the list I had there was like eight guys who've ever done it at the college level. Most of them are playing at low major schools where they're just like the best athlete in the entire conference. But there's two guy, NBA guys in that list besides Tari, Robert Covington, Matisse Stivel. So both guys who've been plus NBA defenders just because they got a really high basketball cue and great physical tools. Now, Tari combines that with dominant scoring. And the thing that's funny about him sometimes is like a lot of the negative scouting reports will say something on the lines of like, well, Tari just bulls his way to the risk. He kind of puts out of control a lot. And it's like, yes.

But when you can do it as good as he can, why the heck not? He came off the bench to average 17 points on 52% shooting, 56% from 2. So like, yeah, why would you not just go to the room and dunk it every time if you can? So that's two. And the third thing about Tari I really, really like is that so he transferred from Cincinnati to LSU this year. Coaching change made him transfer.

Yeah. At Cincinnati, he shot 57% from the free throw line. So it was like, okay, it's a classic, great athlete can't shoot. What's his role in the NBA? This season at LSU, he shot 80% from the free throw line. So he jumped almost 25 points from the free throw line. His three point percentage went up,

but that I feel like it can be very fluky. He didn't take a ton of threes. But the fact that he improved that much as a free throw shooter says to me, A, he's got some natural touch. And then B, he's a real. really hard worker. You don't just do that. It doesn't happen very often. So when I combine those three things, physical dominance, elite statistics, and proven improvement in college over time, that to me just screams high upside potential. Yeah, it does. And the thing about like

disruptiveness is kind of what we're talking about on defense. Like that translates a lot of the time. Now, the positional part of that is another question. You know, Tibel has had trouble lately. like in terms of he's really disruptive but doesn't have the body type necessarily to wall up defenders. We saw that a little bit like Mikhail, uh, ran into some issues, obviously. You hesitate to like measure it against like the best players in the world. Like, oh yeah, you can't guard Luca. No one can guard Luca. But the reality is that is who we're measuring it against.

That's the measuring stick that if you want to have like an elite defender. Uh, you got to, you got to include those guys, unfortunately. But the physical tools are a big part of this, you know. and he's basically just lean muscle like he's built like a truck, but he's not. And then he has huge hands. That's the thing when you watch him, 11 inch hands.

You had a stat on that. What was the stat you had on guys, his height with 11 inch hands? So the NBA started measuring hand size about a decade ago. Way too late. There's only been like 16 guys in the combine with hands,

11 inches his hands. And of those 16, only five of them are 6 foot 8 and smaller, which is telling you like, okay, most guys in hands like that are big old stiffs. Like they're big old centers, like they get big hands or big bodies, whatever. But the guys below at six foot eight and below with those kind of hands, it's like him, Kwai Leonard, and the great Royce White. Royce had great hands, man.

Which is a whole different conversation. Royce was a dominant college player. He didn't, that's a whole different. Yeah, we'll go. Point being like, like, Tari, that's the other thing Tari does really well is he'll just grab the ball from people. Like that's why his steal rate is so high. Is it, that's what's about like,

since I'm just laugh watching and play, because you know, he's just on the, he's guarding guy in the post, the guards driving by minding his own business and Tari just plucks the ball. Like, I'll take that now. Like that's mine. And you were talking about like, okay,

Mikhail Bridges and like, Luca bullied Mikhail Bridges. And not to say Tari's gonna like shut down Luke or anything, but no one's bully in Tari's. Right. Like whatever flaws will have in the NBA, he's not getting put under the back it by anybody. And to me, like you draft Tari Easton thinking, we were talking about before how, like, in the finals, I don't think Kagan could be a guy I could stick on Jalen Brown or stick

on Jason Tainan athletically. Tari Easton's a guy I could stick on those guys. And he can't least match up with them physically, I think. Yes. Wingspan, seven foot two. Something interesting I was going to bring up to you. Well, he's six, eight inch shoes, standing reach eight foot 11 um yeah he just he just like erases people like he he he has like an ability to like snatch the ball out of traffic really well like he'll and he has good like anticipation and like in control with it he'll just like steal it from a player before they even realize what happening he's just he's bringing like strength and length to his position that makes players uncomfortable like if there's like a play if there's a ball like an open space and like two guys are going for it tarry was getting it

I mean, I would, I don't have like that, I don't know if we have like a loose ball 50-50 numbers, but if Tari was in the vicinity, he was going to get it. Let's talk about offensively, though. You talked about him bullying to the rim. He's a little clumsy with his handle, not super fluid. I wouldn't say, I think that he's a long way away from being ready to be any kind of a creator. I think you're kind of hoping that he's somebody that is a plus defender on one end,

and then on the other end, you're getting by with him as a finisher, with him like generating fouls, but he is absolutely chaotic at times, creating anything for himself. For sure. And I think he's been a little bit of a victim, I think. And I think one reason he's not as high in the mock because I would have him. So the backstory is LSU. They are pretty much the closest thing to an outlaw program in college basketball in the last few years. Their coach, Will Wade. Did you watch, did you watch the scheme, Kyle, the HBO, I didn't. I was going to say he's the embodiment of the Leo meme from Wolf of Wall Street. He's like, I'm not going. He is. He literally is the wolf of Wall Street. So a couple of years

ago, like just really quickly, for those who are followed college basketball, the FBI set up an elaborate sting is the dumbest thing you'd ever hear of. For some reason, they were so worried about college basketball players getting paid cash under the table. The FBI conducts an elaborate, like three-year scheme to fight to oh we're going to catch college coaches paying their players probably syracuse alums they catch tarry's coach will wade on the telephone talking about how much i'm paying my guys how much my guys are getting good offers all this stuff and it's all outlined in an hbio documentary called the scheme which i watch just as we're doing this podcast it's absolutely hilarious it's well worth your time the guy on the scheme is actually in christian dockins the agent who's like in

the middle of it. And now he runs the company representing Javari Smith in this draft. So there's a lot of elements to it. All that to say, Will Wade both of Wall Street. It's like two years ago, they got him on hate. And he's like, you know what? I'm not talking to the NCAA. I'm not talking to my school. I'm lowering up. If you want to fire me, you can, but I'm getting my money. And so the last couple of years, he's been recruiting players. The team's been chaotic. I believe he was He was suspended for both NCAA tournaments they were in for these various allegations. He didn't finish the season. No, this year.

They ended up firing before the NCAA tournament this year. And the team's kind of been in a state of chaos in that time. And I think Tari, that's really hurt Tari. He's not had a really a steady point guard. They didn't have much floor spacing. And it was just kind of like, ah, whatever, man, figure it out. And he's like, all right, I'll just go dunk on everyone. Right.

There's more that we'll circle to on that in a minute. I think that I want to touch too, just for time's sake, as a shooter, bizarre shot. I mean, he has sort of like one of those, like, towny shots that's kind of like funky, and it's like sometimes it goes in, shoots from his shoulder. The numbers I have here are a little deceptive based on what I saw. He has, I'd say he has decent touch, but it's going to be a work in progress, like offensively, things like that. In the paint, he was probably the weakest efficiency finisher, 40% by,

college basketball analytics, and about a quarter of his shots came in the pain. He only shot 40% there. You brought something else up, though, about like, stylistically, how players can kind of pay the price based on what system they're in. Iowa versus LSU, what was the point you were going to make about that? Well, essentially, if you look at the numbers for Iowa versus LSU, so Iowa runs the most pristine half-court offense in the country, basically. They're really good at three-point attempts, three-point percentage, really high assists, really low turnover. So when you're playing in Iowa, it's almost like you're playing the game on easy. Like the floor is spread all the way out.

They don't turn it over. They move the ball really well. LSU is the exact opposite. Like there's no floor spacing. No one shoots threes. Nobody passes the ball. Everybody turns it over. Like their rankings are like reverse opposites.

And to be sure, Tari contributes to that. If he turns it over plenty because he's forcing it. But he's playing the game on heart. Like there was no one creating open shots for Tari and there was no one's spacing the floor for him. And it was just kind of a free for all. Yeah, he definitely is somebody that you want to be. If you look at basketball possessions as like a linear, like here's the end point. You want him somewhere near the end point and not the beginning like in the flow of something.

Like you want him finishing not not overly relied on. I think that he's definitely one of those like offensively challenged but not a terrible starting point, but offensively challenged guys that could be a plus defender. So moving on to our next guy, somebody, I think that we've touched on in terms of like our tournament talk, but Jeremy Sohan was a freshman this past year at Baylor. He played high school basketball at La Lumiere for a bit in Indiana. I actually played with Jayne Ivy.

And they've produced a lot of players, Jaron Jackson Jr., Jordan Poole, Keon Brooks, world famous. You know, beef stew for the Pistons. Trey Liles. Yes, Trey Liles, another Kentucky legend. right uh sohan kind of came on he had a couple big games like he was quiet he was like ranked in the 40s in high school a good recruit but not somebody that people were like going wild over he's played for the polis national team this past year um but he entered the the giraffe conversation really because

of baler's big guy charma chashua yes really big active guy got hurt had had a really bad injury and so baler had to adjust on the fly so they start playing Sohan, some at the five throughout the year. We saw it a lot in that game against North Carolina, but he had two big games, 17 points, and people were like, okay, this guy's really interesting. What are your thoughts broadly on Jeremy Sohan? Sohan's a lot like Isson and that he rose a lot during the year. He came off the bench all season.

So he was kind of overshadowed by a different five-star recruit, Kendall Brown, at Baylor. And then like as the year went on, you started hearing whispers out of bear like actually Sohan might be the better prospect. I remember talking to someone around the program like in the middle of the season and they told me that and I was like, wow, that's a, that's quite a take. And now it's just funny like now four months later like Kendall Brown's barely in the first round and Sohan's probably going to be a lottery pick. So it shows you how quickly perceptions can change and how fluid this whole process can be.

And I think that's something worth remembering, especially for people who don't follow the draft over the course of the year and are kind of parachuting in at the end. And I think what happens so often is they'll say, okay, so here's tier one, then tier two is like seven players and Jeremy Sohan's in that. But it's like none of this was written in like Old Testament stone coming down from Mount Sinai.

I guess it's all happened really fast, the consensus to form. So it's just like worth holding all this with an open hand, is what I'm saying, one. So two, Sohan, I think the biggest thing, like he was very, very good defensively as a freshman, very unusual, a very high IQ player, a very good passer. He really fit and well. Baylor obviously won a national title last two years ago. And then they brought back up, they had a lot of their stars left, but a lot of veterans still. And Sohan, I think really benefited comparing to Kendall Brown, who was more highly touted, but it was a little more of a wild place.

player, didn't really know how to fit into a smaller role and kind of struggled a lot to make an impact. Whereas Sohan came in right away, very solid two-way player. Six-nine, he's probably, I'm looking at his number. So six nine, two-thirty, kind of a combo forward, small ball center, passing defensive player. I'd say that's probably the best to sum up his game. Yes, very active. I was positing to you in terms of like, we use this word, we have all kinds We were talking about like draft jargon can be funny. You can, like sometimes draft jargon can be, for the people who are in it all the time, it can be so intense.

And sometimes we, sometimes we just flat out make up words that aren't, that don't need to exist. For sure. Or we just overcomplicate. I do this too. You know, I'm like, well, I don't know how famously, but I'm very guilty of it. You could definitely make fun of me on that front. But I think that like the word that came to mind was processor. You hear that used a lot.

Really, we're just talking about defensive thinkers. spatial awareness. In my opinion, Tari's spatial awareness is probably the lowest of these three guys in terms of like always thinking about

where the flow of the court is going, where I should be, where the action's going to be coming. Coming is anticipation is good. Agree or disagree with this. I think behind Chet, I think that Sohan probably has

the most impressive defensive mind for processing the defensive end of the floor of anybody like in the lottery. like in the lottery range. What do you think? Oh, that's a tough one.

I'd have to go and look at that. When I expound that a little bit because that's an interesting thing to say. Well, I just think that he has a really, A, he has an active mind for it. He has a lot of Fiba experience. So he has a lot of experience, like, outside of the American game in terms of, you know, his mom, like, was a basketball coach. It's another, we have several, like, female, like, players with, like, their moms were basketball presences in their lives.

But he's another one. He just has mental motor that seems really developed. Like he positionally is really smart. He's at the right place at the right time a lot and consistently. The thing that I love the most about him is willingness to give multiple efforts. Like one of the biggest examples was that UNC game where they came back like UNC like really crap the bed and let them come back. But a lot of that game, Sohan was playing Armando Baycott, a true college five.

I mean, he was bothering him and constantly, like, prodding at the ball, being where he needs to be, making multiple efforts. And he's pretty switchable. Like, I expect him to be, I don't know if he'll be like a point of attack guy, but like two through four, I feel pretty confident about Jeremy Sohan guarding at the next level. Like, he's just a really clever defender, in my opinion. Yeah, I would say, like, the UNC game, for sure. That was an absolutely preposterous game.

It was a second round of the NCAA tournament. UNC gets out to a 25-point lead in the second half, and then Baylor comes all the way back, and then ends up blowing it in overtime. And that was the game that really put so hot on the map nationally. I think also he kind of developed like this defensive pest, defensive menace kind of reputation, which is also helped by the fact that he was constantly dying his hair

over the course of the year. It helped, it helped. It helped. Hey, man. It's all marketing. It kind of gives a little bit of the more. Like, you know, yeah, like, I'm a little unhinged. I'm a little out there.

I'm not afraid to push the boundaries. Like, look at me. Like, whatever. But, like, that was something else worth. And I think Sohan defensively, yes, is very impressive. My concern is on the offensive end of the floor. And I think this is where the number meets the road for Sohan is, like, what is his role on offense?

That's what I just, I couldn't quite figure it out. So Texas, we played them in a game. game. At one point, we just started stashing our like 6-3-2 guard on him because it was like, ah, whatever, he's not doing anything anyways. Well, I think a difference between the college and the NBA levels is if you're talking about like how you can scheme to keep him out there, if you have a shooting five, you put Sohan in the dunker spot on offense and have him roam as a cutter, really clever cutter, um, assist usage higher than the other two guys. You know, his was, his assist usage was 0.62, which, you know, you talked about him being a clever pass.

those like short low touch time making a good decision i'm pretty confident um on him on that level like i think that he can play within the flow of an offense the question is the shooting you know do we think that he can like get to the point where he's a dependable spacer at least in the catch and shoot since um i don't know that i have like necessarily have like a true kind of comp for him 30% three point shooter on two point seven attempts not a great free throw shooter That's one thing if you're going to kind of project him, we saw, but my question for you, he was a 58.9, basically a 59% free throw shooter, but he racks up good plays. Defensively, I think that he's going to hold up.

He's a little younger than Yason, though, is my thing. So we're going the age, we're going the age upside versus dependability thing. What's the benefit of the doubt that you're giving Tari on the offensive end that you wouldn't give to Jeremy? How do you compare those? because your skepticism didn't feel as present when we were talking about Tari offensively. Where do you see them differing? I would say the main thing is in free throw shooting, number one. I think sometimes with Sky like Sohan, I'll read a lot of these scouting reports,

and they're just kind of assuming the sale. Like he shows shooting touch. Does he like he shot 58% from the free throw line? And yes, that can improve, but not necessarily. There was a great line. Did you ever see the true grit, the one with like Jeff Bridges? You're hitting me with the movie references today. This is like a total role reversal.

A long time ago. I saw it when it came out. I remember liking it though. A, it's a fantastic movie. Everyone should see it. And then at one point in the movie, the little girl is trying to hire Jeff Bridges to be his, to be like her bounty hunter, basically. And she's telling them and she's like, well, I have some money coming in tomorrow.

and he looks out and he's like, no, I don't believe in money coming in tomorrow. When that money comes in, I'll believe it. Until then, have a nice day, ma'am. But I've been around long enough not to believe it. And it's just so for me, I think the thing was Sohan that concerns me. And you say, oh, well, he just needs a shooting five. One, there's not a lot of shooting fives, even in the modern NBA.

Like, if you look at like from six to 13, So you have Portland, New Orleans, San Antonio, Washington, New York, Oklahoma City, Charlotte. In terms of shooting five, you got Miles Turner, Chris Staps, Porzingis. These are guys on massive contracts who have all kinds of fit issues who have been on the trade block for like basically their entire careers. It's just like it's tough to find those players won. So like that always concerns me. Oh, just playing with the shooting five. like sure right like that's that'd be great like wouldn't we all playing with lebron james for the matter

i'm sure it's been great in that role too right it's just hard to find that role conditional fit yeah and then number two with so hon is like i was just thinking about it and like if this guy could shoot how high would he be in the draft where how high would he go do you think it's like okay this guy's a shooter oh high i mean at that point i think you're starting to talk about i mean that's a pretty special player like a two i mean i guess you're kind of looking at like his age. So we're talking about a guy who is just over 19 years old. Think about like shooting improvement. Some of it can depend on where he goes, you know. From what I gather, he's a pretty basketball obsessed player, a worker. Like we said, smart. If you kind of like mirror his,

his IQ on one end, I don't think that he's like quite on the same level as Herb Jones. But it's a similar conversation. What would we have said about Herb Jones at 19? who was kind of a non-shooter. As a freshman at Alabama, Herb was a 27% three-point shooter and 50% from the line. And by the time he was a senior, he up that to 71.3 from the line,

and he was a 35% shooter. A lot of it can depend on where you go. I do, in my gut, believe in Sohan, in terms of, like, his ability to work and become a better player and stay on the floor. In the passing and, like, the flow of the offense stuff, I like a lot, too. His shot is a little slow.

I don't know about him ever as like a true creator. Like he basically has no established kind of identity as like a pick and roll player. He can get to the rim and finish. Like he can attack like a slower big in the mid range and get to the rim and finish. His touch around the room is pretty good. His paint field goal percentage was 56%. That's the best of the three guys. I don't know.

Do you see him as like a, where do you see him falling like in the safe range? You seem more skeptical on him than I do, I think. Yeah, I mean, I think he's an NBA player, for sure. I think that size skill and IQ is going to keep him in the league. I just think there's a lot of assuming the sale with him in terms of improving as a jump shooter. And yes, like Herb Jones got a lot better as a jump shooter over the course of his career. I mean, for sure. But if we're starting to draft guys because Herb Jones improve as a shooter, we could draft 10 guys who are fantastic athletes who can't shoot work and lick.

Well, Herb Jones got better. That's what I was kind of saying about like, I believe it when I see it a little bit with that. Right. It's like. Let's not bank on the crazy. Yeah. So it's like once you make the transition, like just even for example, like the thing with TAR improving as a frito shooter in college, it makes, I'm just so much more comfortable. Like, okay, I've seen it.

Like shooting is one of the hardest things to project generally. So it's just, it's always a toss up with that. And then I'm like, okay, if he improves a shooter, then yeah, he's a great. day player, but if, and for me with Sohan, it reminds me a lot of the conversation last year. Like, I would compare him as a prospect a little bit to Scotty Barnes and Jaylon Johnson. And they're all in the same like bucket to me of these are six nine combo forwards with questionable jumpers, high IQ players, very athletic. And you ask yourself, well, Scottie Barnes is rookie of the year.

Jalen Johnson couldn't get on the floor for Atlanta as a playoff team. That's because Toronto just said, Scotty Barnes, you're going to be one of our. of leading guys on offense. Like, don't worry about not being able to shoot because we're giving you the ball and you're going to cook. I don't see Sohan doing that. Like, to me, he falls more into, like, the Jalen Johnson problem where he's not going to be a primary guy.

And then he's not really a secondary guy either because he can't shoot. The whole, like, keeping you on the floor, like, you got to be plus somewhere. Like, Jalen defensively, he had a lot of, I mean, like, in college, it was awful. And then, you know, an offensively can't space. and then you think Atlanta just has a lot of guys. That's not exactly a place where you can, you know, they draft too well. They have too many people to develop at once. But Sohan, just for some reference here, on guarded catch-and-shoot-3s, he was 34.8%.

And on unguarded, he was 31.3. It's a similar thing to Barnes, if you watch him, if he's deliberate, both feet or under him, it's not like, he's not like throwing rocks. Like, it's not, like, hideous, you know. He does show some things that give me indicators, like I said, and he showed some like crafty ambidextrousness in the lane, finishing. I don't know. I think you could do a lot worse if you were somewhere in that 6 to 10 range.

The big thing here is that like the takeaway, the best teams in the NBA, I was talking with Kevin about this the other day, the best defensive teams in the NBA, unless you have like a dominant defensive big guy, have like efficiency switching like any kind of screen action. If you look at the worst defensive teams in the league, it's like the Kings, the Rockets, the Blazers, the pistons,

like this is the type of guy that could come in and bolster that, if that's something that you need. If you need help like defending ball screens in a variety of situations, he's somebody that fits that. The question is the offense. It's going to take some time. I wanted to rattle off some quickly, just superlatives before we wrap up. up. Of these three guys, most likely to play in a playoff game, this is a lightning round,

most likely to play in a playoff game next year. Who is it? Is that Keegan? Best athlete of the three? Tar. I'll give your answers, too. I think Tari, yeah, explosiveness. In terms of, like, mobility, I actually think Sohan might have a little bit of a, uh, might have him a little bit there. Best shooter, I think it's Keegan by a pretty wide margin. Best creator upside of these three. That's a tricky one. I know I thought about this a lot. What do you think? I'm going to say Tari, just because of the physical dominance he has.

I think that gives him an edge Kagan and Sohan just don't have. I went back and forth. Yeah, it was like Tari and Sohan are like not going to command any respect shooting the ball, but I feel like it's like downhill finishers. Kegan weirdly not like a guy who's going to go from like top to the rim and like off the dribble. Like he just does it in different ways. Defensive versatility. I'm going to go with Tari again.

I would bank on like Sohan's like middle mode. on that end. I know that like Tari has the like physical tools in terms of like bothering guys and switches. I just see Sohan as being a really good team defender. Most likely to bust of the three. I'm going to say so on con case the jumper never comes. And then what's his role in offense? I lean Tari here because I could see a world where like the offensive game is a little too fast for him and he can't hit a shot and he can't create against NBA pressure. I could see you would have to be the best defensive player in the world to overcome that. I guess before. we get out of here too i'm curious like it's in terms of fits so most like so like fits for all these

guys so most likely kegan's going to go in the four six range right i thought he could pretty much fit anywhere i'm not too worried about that with him like any of those spots i expect him to at least be okay right now so hon to me is an interesting one where would you want to put him in terms of fit in the range he's being projected to uh when i'm like projecting fit i'm just like looking at um that's kind of what I was alluding to with like the defensive versatility. The best, the best, like most switchable, like defensive teams in the league, um, if you're looking at like at the top of the league here, the teams that have switched the most where the Celtics, the Miami Heat and the Warriors were like all three of them were in the top five. So that's, that's something you need to be able to do at a

high level to win in the NBA. You got to have continuity. You got to have the athletes. You got to have the personnel. The teams that really need a huge upgrade there, I mean, they're at the top. of the draft. And you look at like with Orlando being the exception, like the rockets could use him, the kings could use him. The pistons need shooting in like a vertical spacer. I think they, like they're, they're okay, I think, for a young team defensively. Sohan, I think, could come in and he could help the Kings, but I don't think they're going to take him there. I could see the spurs taking Sohan. Doesn't it feel like, I don't know, that's like the international cliche. Do you have a fit that you like? I mean, I could see the Knicks falling in love with his switchability. What do you think?

say he's the best fit at two or three. That's pretty ambitious. No, I'm just looking purely at teams here. No, they're not going to take him there, obviously. We're just purely talking fit teams here. I love your so I love that. Yeah, let's put him up on Palo and Javari. That's great. Oh, no, no, no, no. I'm not to that level. I'm not to that level. I'm just, I was purely not, I wasn't even thinking about, like, should you take him there? I was just like teams. I mean, Cleveland could also be interesting for him, but yeah. I think if I, I guess to go along with like a shooting five who can play off bigger stars and compliment them on defense. I like Washington. I think you could, you know, with Beal and KP, there's most of your usage. They're both

really good shooters. So you know, you could probably have Sohan mucking about. And either one of them's is a great defender. So that might probably be the best fit for him. I like you building any discussion about fit around Chris Depp's Porzingas. There's a laugh. Well, they're paying that made a lot of money. It's like better figure something else. It's more it's less of it. It's working and it's more of a, we're just doing it because we have to situations. I've got a fit for Tari though for a wrap up. Okay. I was just thinking about it. I would absolutely love to see Oklahoma City go full Raptors and draft Chet and Tari with Shea and Giddy and just shrink the floor. Yeah. Like just full on, we're going six nine everywhere and we're just covering up everything. That's going to be so

much fun to watch. It is. It is going to be. And this draft is going to be fun to cover. It feels like this draft's been coming for a while. Any other just kind of like putting a bow on it, thoughts on this, on these guys? Like, we know Tari's your favorite. Well, I think this conversation is a good example when we're talking about at the top of the show. Like, it gets really complicated, really fast. Once you get out of like those top five picks, a lot of, it becomes way more conditional. All these guys have question marks. You're You're kind of playing your favorites. You're kind of playing hunches, going off historical trends.

But it's not simple. And a lot of drafts, 11 through 20, can be, there's players there better than they are six through 10. I think this conversation is a perfect example of how wide these outcomes can be, how tough it is. And like, this is where the rubber meets the road. This is why like you want to get in the top four or five. Because we were going back to those lists of all these recent drafts.

Yeah. you don't have to ask these questions. There's not a ton of busts in the top four or five in most drafts. Like there's a couple usually. But for the most part, the guys top four, top five, the floors are relatively high. You get

the six, seven, eight, nine, ten men, and those floors are at the bottom. Like, there's not a lot of safe picks there. This is really complicated, and this is where NBA teams make their money, man. NBA front offices. This is where it all goes down. This is where the action is pretty intense. Yeah. And when those players don't

work out. They become reclamation projects. I've done whole studies about this where it's like they start changing teams and you start just trying to, it's like you're like ringing like a rag just trying to get any soap out of it. You know, like we were talking about it. The G League thing. It's like your expectations kind of go down because it gets laid early in the NBA. And to be on that trajectory of like a star, the train leaves fast and you better be on it basically is kind of how it works. I know, I'm a big believer. My hesitation. with these guys is like the upside in terms of you know how how sure are we that this is like the exact three that's another thing that we didn't really get into that i wanted to because i'm a big believer in

like handle begetting development in other areas and like i don't know these three guys don't inspire me in that way like there's we're not going to go into it but there are other guys in the draft that are interesting on this level like usman jeng the guy who played for the new zealand breakers who has a really fluid handle is younger uh and is it might be a guy that people take take a swing at because of that, because of the upside. And then there's E.J. Ladell and Nikola Jovich names for another time. Yeah, all that to say, it's like, these are guys we pick because they want to talk about them. Yes, exactly. But this pod could have easily been Keegan Murray and two other guys, other people like Mori. That's, I think, the biggest thing to take away is like this thing is

not set in stone. Tiers after tier one are very relative and they're very subjective. don't get mock draft brain, get galaxy brain, and explore the possibilities of the draft. Yes, there's a whole lot of stuff. Be careful with your mock draft intel because we know that Intel can drive it and Intel can be a fickle mistress to trust. We'll talk about that another time. We'll put a pin in that for next week. How about that? We wanted to hit that. We'll talk about Intel next week. John, great combo, man. I appreciate it. It's good to see you. You feeling good? Yeah, as always. And yeah, and like, obviously, if the Celtics lose, the ringer will be in mourning for a few days. But there's a great combo, man. And then we'll get until the draft is next Thursday, so we'll get the more draft coverage before the draft. KOC, I think, has a new mock draft out on Monday and be big bored. We're going to hit it really hard for like four days.

Because obviously the Celtics are the biggest story in the sports world, obviously. But we'll be here next week. We'll be here for post-draft coverage. I'm really excited. It's going to be fun. Oh, yeah. Best time of the year, man. Love it, love it, love it.

Into Summer League, too, which we'll talk about later. But, yeah. All right, John. It's good to see you, buddy. We're going to be.