The Ringer NBA Show - Brooklyn’s Head Coaching Search, Chris Paul’s Hesitance to Return Too Fast, and More Mailbag Questions | The Mismatch

Episode Date: April 24, 2020

We discuss the short list (read: Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving’s list) for Kenny Atkinson’s replacement in Brooklyn (2:13). Then, we take a look at NBPA president Chris Paul’s reluctance to bring the NBA back without giving players at least a month to get their bodies ready (7:19). Finally, we open the 'Mismatch' mailbag again to answer your questions about the draft, the Grizzlies, our dream 3v3 partners, and more (11:53).  Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Please give whatever you can. The money goes directly to World Central Kitchen, and it's a charitable donation. Once again, that's the ringer.com slash WCK. Now time for the mismatch. The Ringer NBA show, I'm Chris Vernon. Enjoyed him as he does every Friday from the ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor Kevin O'Connorcavernessy. Kevin O'Berno, what's going on, man?

Well, we are going to do a big mailbag today. But before we get into that and answering listener questions, a couple pieces of news from the week that we do need to discuss, first of which is a little news on possibly who could be manning the Nets sideline going forward. I think both of us were surprised when Kenny Atkinson was let go, especially with the timing of it all, and especially that they are a playoff team, but Kenny Atkinson and the Nets parted ways, so they are going to be going in a different direction with head coach, and we did get a little news on that. What did you think? Well, the names that were reported were Tyron Liu, Jason Kidd, Jeff Van Gundy, Mark Jackson,

and that's according to Mark Stein of the New York Times. And Jack Bond, the interim head coach, is also under consideration as well. And I mean, these are some of the names that have been thrown around for quite some time now in relation to KD or Kyrie Irving. So the names themselves aren't surprising. It's just like, as you said, the Kenny Ackinson getting let go when he did was shocking with the timing everything. But with these names, none of these guys are surprising.

You get the two guys from the ESPN broadcast booth and two current assistants who are formerly head coaches. It's going to be interesting to see here. I mean, I think for this team, that Ty Lou Kyrie Irving relationship that already exists, in my eyes, must make him some type of favorite here. But I can't help but wonder if Jeff Van Gundy or Mark Jackson being out of coaching for so long, maybe there's something there between those guys with a deep, deep desire to get back into coaching where they're willing to

adapt to the system and do it the way Brooklyn wants to do it the way Katie and Kyrie wants to do it because it's clear. It is clear that this is Katie and Kyrie's coaching list not necessarily Sean Marks in the next front office. Yeah, I mean, probably

look, Jeff Van Gundy that's not going to be a fit with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant. This is going to have to be who the guys get along with. They just got rid of a good head coach, right, because of the personality of it all. And so what are those guys going to be happy with? Who are they going to play for? Who can command respect from them? You brought up Tyloo, so you have that prior relationship with Kyrie Irving. And obviously, we know that Kevin Durant has fancied Mark Jackson for some time.

I would think that it would be between those two guys in terms of who those guys are going to respect, who those guys are going to play for, who those guys are not going to roll their eyes at or throw under the bus. You know, again, this isn't about being a fantastic basketball coach. Jeff Van Gundy had a lot of success when he was on the sidelines and is very highly respected, still a clinician to this day. but I don't think his personality would mesh at all with those guys. So I'd guess it will either be Tailu or Mark Jackson. And it's interesting with Van Gundy. As far as I can remember, Kyrie hasn't been on Team USA when Van Gundy's been an assistant coach.

Van Gundy's been with Team USA since 2017. And the last time, if I can remember correctly, Kyrie played was 2016. So those guys don't necessarily have an existing relationship from Team USA basketball either. Yeah. So I guess it'll be Lou or Mark Jackson. Again, that's, that's, you know, that's the times that we are in, that the players are obviously incredibly powerful. And so who is that triumphant of Durant, Irving and DeAndre Jordan, for that matter, going to be cool, going to be cool with, you know what I mean? And ultimately, that matters, too. I mean, I know there's some people who are like, yeah, you're not letting the front office make the little. here, but the players are the people who interact with this coach every single day.

And they're the ones who ultimately, their choice and their preference does matter here when it comes to building proper team chemistry, especially for the Nets, a team that you've already, like, Kyrie has already made comments about how, you know, this isn't necessarily the team that we're going to need to win a championship. There could be more changes to come. Getting that right chemistry mix is critical to their success whenever basketball resumes, or next season. Well, and we have to restate.

They didn't just fire a bad coach. That guy will have a job next year. Yeah. Kenny Agons is a good coach and a guy. A lot of people are respected. I mean, we've seen Jared Dudley and I believe DeMarie Carroll have remarked about how incredible of an experience they had with him in Brooklyn and the chemistry that team had last season

in the year before that. I mean, look, they made the playoffs, but this wasn't a contending team. And for what I've been told from, I talked to DeMari Carroll during the season when he's with San Antonio. And I asked him about Brooklyn compared to San Antonio. And he told me Brooklyn had that college vibe. But it was like a family. And right now that's, of course, gone.

So they need to try to find a new coach who can instill that, but with maybe more of a championship mentality, whatever that means in the eyes of Kyrie and Kady and Sean Marks and the guys making that decision. It is not going to be easy with those two personalities either. It's going to be fun for us. us. It's going to be fun for us, but I would not. Look, that is not an easy job. That is not an easy job with those two. The other story that came out was Chris Paul and his comments about a season and a possible reboot of a season. And the reason this is so significant is because Chris Paul is in his seventh year as the NBA Players Association president. He was on a conference call and he said, I'm just letting you know, and I don't think the league would do it anyway.

But if they were like, hey, you got two weeks and then we're going, that's not going to happen. That's not going to happen. Whatever the amount of time is, just know the players will have input the say-so because we're the ones playing. That comes first. We don't ever want to put guys in a situation where their injury risk is higher than ever before. And this comes off of him saying that they will need a runway of at least three to four. weeks for players to be able to prepare to play games. It seems totally reasonable to me, doesn't it to you?

100%. And, you know, that follows up on what Windhorst reported saying the NBA proposed some 25-day program where guys would have about half that time with workouts individually and then about two weeks of, you know, social distancing practices or whatever with their teammates. And, you know, with Chris Paul, he did make another comment too in that story. from Royce Young that there seems to be some skepticism with the way he's looking at this. You know, he says, I don't know a lot. He says, we're dealing with a lot of hypotheticals. Some guys have access to facilities where they can train and others don't. And all these are fair concerns, right? I mean, if games do resume, this sure as hell isn't going to be perfect.

And there's going to be some issues moving forward. We touched on it last week, right? I mean, or earlier this week with Bill Simmons. It's not just, you know, guys being able to get back a shave. It's what's going to happen when they're actually playing. We might see some more, you know, maybe, hopefully no serious injuries, but ankle turns, you know, tighten it up. I mean, there's going to be some problems that guys have if they're being rushed back. So hopefully they're able to give a long enough window as Chris Paul touched on to get healthy. Yeah, and you don't know how long these guys are going to have. There's just so many unknowns. And like you said, he didn't want to deal with too many hypotheticals, but I did

find it very interesting. He said on the conference call, as reported by Royce Young, he has not shot a basketball in a gym since the layup lines prior to his team's game against the Jazz on March 11th. So we have wondered, now, of course, he was in that horse competition. We know he has a goal, but we've wondered, are these guys, you know, seeking out gyms, whether it is school gyms or whatever in the area to be able to go play. Chris Paul, who's the president of the Players Association, says that that last game, where they were getting ready before the Jazz, that's the last time he has been in a gym and shot a basketball.

And I've got to imagine that Chris Paul is not an outlier in this situation. That is true of the majority of almost all, probably, of the 450 players that are in the league. Man, crazy, right? It's wild even when you heard the story. about Steph Curry and his family having to buy a hoop for their home. Because why would you have to have one? You would never.

Yeah. And I just, I think, I don't know, I kind of thought that there were probably a lot of guys that are seeking out or going to gyms and trying to find it. But now that I hear this, I bet that Chris Paul's,

I bet his story is not unlike almost all the others. If he hasn't gone to a gym, now he's got a goal at his house. So, I mean, what would be more fascinating is how many times he's going out and shot on his own goal? You know, is he going out there every day? And he's doing, he's doing drills and whatnot outside. I mean, probably. I don't know.

Maybe guys are just following the Russell Westbrook workout game plan. Did you see that video of him going hard in the sand? No, uh-uh. I mean, he's going hard, man. Westbrook is working out, but he's, as far as we know, he's not shooting. But he's doing drills to stay in good condition. he was at like a sand volleyball place at a park. And he's moving laterally in the sand and his socks.

And yeah, it's intense. There you go. It's the most Russell Westbrook workout that you can imagine, put it that way. Of course. Bobby Wagner, our producer is here as always. And we petitioned our listeners to throw us any questions that they wanted to, that we would answer. Bobby, what do we got this week?

All right, guys. So first question this week. we know the MJ doc is the only thing in the news in the basketball world pretty much so Jack asked my question is with the MJ doc coming out what basketball story would you want to see turned into a documentary no matter of the length so is there anything that pops out to you guys

that you've never seen put on screen? Oh like if I could find out that there was footage of you know behind the scenes of one of the teams or something like that the jailblazers that would be unbelievable.

I mean, that would be unbelievable. It marked the times. It marked the times. It was in Portland, so it wasn't a huge market. And it was like all the stories that came out were, you know, bad stories. I would love to see something on that and on that team and on that moment in time. That was a great basketball team that had maybe the worst news slash public, like all you ever heard was bad. Right. But there's a, I know, and I have been around a couple of the characters that were involved in that time. And I will tell you, they're two of my favorite guys that I've ever been around. One is Damon Stademeyer, who was the point guard and is now the head coach at Pacific University and obviously Zach Randolph, who completely changed his entire image around during the course of his MBA career. And everybody I know that has, you know, that knows.

Sheed. Love Sheed. They just had so many fascinating characters. And you had an old sub bonus on that team. I don't know. I think something on that. I feel like I don't know enough about everything except for, you know, this incredibly negative connotation about that team. I think I would be interested in the inverse of the Jordan Dock. And I would like something on a team that constantly fell short, like the Utah Jazz. I would like to see behind the scenes. of the trials and tribulations that a team like that goes through when they are going against this monstrous player in Jordan, what their game planning is like, what the conversations are that they're having, the amount of stress that you go through when you come so close so many times. I mean, and it, Carl Malone's 18 years with Utah. They made the playoffs every year, every year, and they fell short every year. And I would just be really interested in a story that of that because look, Malone and Stockton are two incredible players. Jerry Sloan

head coach. You get some interesting characters on those teams. I'd want to see a deep dive into a team that just kept falling short. Yeah, there's another one too. For recent times, it would be the Warriors. If you had

any, and if you could span that time, when you're talking about the characters that are on that team and the personalities, especially that they have gone in and out of and different veterans they put in that locker room over the last couple of years. And you could go from them winning the title to then convincing Kevin Durant to come over there

and then that honeymoon and then that falling apart. Even that last year with Kevin Durant because you've already heard people talk about that. And I remember just a few years ago, David West, after they won, saying if people had any idea what was going on with this team, they'd lose their minds, you know. And so, like, what was it really like behind the scenes with that team?

Because that would clearly broach what has been the most famous of the player transactions that we've had in the league. Any of that, I would love to get, you know, pull the curtain back on what happened with the Warriors and see what that's really like and how, you know, and get them to really talk because Lord knows, Draymond's already talking about it. And it's not like it's 20 years. later. It's one year later and he's already popping. You're all right? Like usually guys wait like 15 years to say what they really think about crap. He's saying it right now. So that would be good

too. Another story this past decade, Oklahoma City Thunder with Katie, Russell Westbrook, James Hard. And it would be able to get into the Harden trade. It would get into some of the locker room stuff that they went through. You know, and KD just last week, I think, had said that everyone made a sacrifice except him and him being James Hardin with that trio. And I just would imagine that there's probably a lot more stories behind the scenes that touch on exactly what Katie was alluding to there saying everyone made a sacrifice except him. How did he not make a sacrifice? He was the one coming off the bench.

I don't know. That's what I wonder. You know, it's funny. I'm doing this bit where we're watching old Great Grizzlies games and me and Tony Allen are commentating them. and it's the first time that I have watched an Oklahoma City game that featured James Harden in forever because we did game four of the Western Conference semifinals, a triple overtime game against that Oklahoma City team.

I actually watched the game yesterday, and it was so funny as we're watching it. Hardin never passes. It's the funniest thing. It really is. He plays exactly like James Hardin, like now, except he's obviously bigger and better than he was in 2011. but it's odd to watch it

and that team there is it's just so much I take a turn you take a turn I take a turn I take a turn and by the way that comment I said everyone made the sacrifice except James that was from Kendrick Perkins Perk said that

and that was with a conversation with Stephen A. Smith yeah not Katie so that was from Perk next question all right let's do a couple Grizzlies questions so Aiden wants to know

So he's a fan of the Grizzlies and loves Jha and Jaron Jackson as a duo. We've already seen how good Jha can be. What are your thoughts on Jaron Jackson's potential, like his absolute ceiling? And I guess my follow up to that would be, is that the top two on your championship version of the Grizzlies? Yes. Without question. Would you agree? Yeah.

Well, Jaron Jackson has everything you want in a modern big. He's switchable on defense. He can be a shop locker around the rim. he can switch on to guards and wings and he can survive for you. And then on offense, he can shoot threes at a high level for a big. He can do a little bit off the dribble for you. Or he can be that guy around the rim, like a more traditional big man if you need him to be. He can be using any role on either end of the floor.

And that versatility could be plug and played onto any team, any team in basketball. And that's what makes it work for Memphis because you can use different types of bigs like Brandon Clark or you can, you know, play smaller if you want to and put Jackson at the five. You can run pick and roll. He can space the floor. What more could you want, baby? There's only two things. Obviously, he will fill out. He is still very, very young. He came into the league. He was earlier than his peers, even amongst those one and duns that came into the league. He'll fill out and he has to become a better rebounder, number one. And he has got to get the fouls under control.

You know, part of the reason he only average 28 minutes a game in the season that we saw so far is because he gets in real foul trouble. In fact, he has been tops in the league or one of the top five in terms of foul rate in his two seasons in the league. But once he fills out and becomes a little bit of rebounder, and once he gets, once he, you know, is truly able to guard without fouling, because the kid tries to block everything. But he picked up fouls, you know, running through screens or he'll pick up a foul on a guard 35 feet away from the basket. And that'll all come with maturity.

He is going to be a devastating NBA player. Oh, his ceiling? His ceiling is multiple, multiple all-star teams. No doubt. For sure. And that's a ceiling. But, you know, the two concerns you touched on were exactly the concerns pre-drafts. That's right.

It's he files too much and he doesn't rebound as much as you would like for a true, for a big man. And that, the filing really didn't improve from his first year or two his second year. It may be marginally. I mean, I pulled up the numbers here. He averaged 7.2 files per 100 possessions as a rookie to 6.8 his second year. So a very subtle difference there. But it was very, very bad at the beginning of this season and did get better.

It did. the first month of the season, he was miserable. And it was just always going to the bench by the time before you could get to the first, like, media time out. And by the way, just to put those numbers in perspective, 7.2 and 6.8 per 100 possession, Mark a soul, you know, for his career has averaged 4.5. Right. And that's very, very low per 100 possessions. So, you know, for Jared Jackson, that's the big, big, big area of improvement for him.

Because he's got to be able to play more minutes. Simple as that. And obviously, I know these kids well. I'm around them all the time. They are an absolute perfect fit personality-wise because Jaron is not the kind, there's not the battle for who's the alpha dog, who's the guy, like, John Moran's the guy. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows John Moran is the superstar on this team.

And Jaron Jackson has got the personality to be just fine, being the guy that can be Robin. And I think that, you're right. You're right. He does. massive, you know, that is a massive hurdle that a lot of great teams have to go over. So if they both can fulfill their destiny, I mean, obviously that's the hope. But you have two kids that love each other, their, you know, thickest thieves off the court. And they both got these completely different personalities.

Jai is a killer now. And he's that more low-key, you know, reserved kind of kid. Whereas Jared is like life of the party could work. walk into a, you can put him at a sponsorship event and walk into a group of season ticket holders or a group of sponsorship or a group of, you know, boys and girls club kids. And he is the life of the party immediately. He's got this huge personality. But so it fits because you've kind of got the guy that doesn't care about talking to the, with the guy that loves to talk, you know. All right. The next one, and this is the last Chris. This one, but this comes from Evan,

who says that they became a Grizzlies fan right after the OJ Mayo era and you can tell how nervous some small market fans are but through Jaws super fun season I often get nervous as his stats and records are put on a list just beating OJ Mayo records can you guys give me some peace of mind and explain

why his job better than OJ Mayo okay all right number one well OJ Mayo was really good at the beginning he put up a lot of stats one rookie of the year so it's not an unreasonable question. I just, I feel, I feel, I feel bad forever because he just sounds so scarred. I'm sorry, Evan. I tell you this is someone who do this very day loves O.J. Mayo. Okay. O.J. and when I talk about players and the situations they come into and how that can change their

entire careers and the type of thing that they are around and the type of thing they are asked to do and how their careers can change. Okay, so OJ Mayo came into the league. All right. Number one, the reason that you can be heartened is John Morant is much better than OJ Mayo ever was. Number two, John Morant's all these numbers that you are seeing, the most important one is wins. The Grizzlies, in fact, have a winning record when John Morant plays in games. I think they're one and seven without him this year. So add that to their record. They would be a healthy dose above 500 if he played every game. But it's the winning. That OJ team lost 60 games.

I went to all of them. And OJ was outstanding. But it was you put up big numbers because somebody's got to put up big numbers if you lose every single night. And he is a perfect example of how when I talk about guys putting up numbers, on bad teams and how this can affect them going forward. He is a kid I think about all the time because he comes in. He's able to take whatever shot he wants. He is like a star type player and has these great numbers and this great season.

And then when the team gets good, his destiny is to be and he could have had a long, great career being the Lou Williams type, being the Eddie House type, being the guy that comes off the bench and just gets buckets. But he wanted to be a star. And, you know, he had been on magazines from the time he was in high school all the way. And then he was a star at USC his year in college. And then he comes into the NBA and he scores 20-something points a game. But that's not going to be your destiny when you're part of a winning team.

And I don't, I think he always had trouble coping with that, you know, when you're the guy that can score. 30 points in a game, then you think that, but you're not the guy that can score 30 points at a game if your team's winning a bunch. And so that's the difference. Those stats were put up losing over and over and over again, whereas Moran, he has shown he is absolutely able to contribute to winning. And I think with Jha as well, he has a super, super high basketball IQ and feel for the game. He has that that he can fall back on as a playmaking point card. What happened with OJ Mayo is very unusual, you know, I mean, even at the end when he did get suspended, I think in 2016 or 2017, he was a bench player. You know, he was still

hanging around and it just hasn't been back since. But with John Morant, he has a baseline of skills that he can fall back on, even if he doesn't reach some level of upside. But as you said, Chris, he's already. than OJ Mayo ever was. Yeah. I mean, look, once upon a time

Michael Carter Williams won rookie of the year and was putting up triple doubles all the time. Right? I mean, it does happen where I do think that's the context.

But sometimes you have to decide. NCW is sort of similar to the OJ Mayo circumstances that you were touching on. He did that in a losing situation, a Sixers team that won 19 games. A lot of guys did that. You know what I mean?

A lot of guys put up, you know, somebody's got to score if your team sucks. You know, like your team's, Still, even the sorry teams are scoring 100 points. So how are you getting there? And you get to do whatever you want.

You get to shoot whatever you want. And then when it comes time for being a part of winning, how do you fit in on a winning team? And you're not the star anymore. And I think it's very, very hard to handle. And by the way, that's another NBA story, the process sixers that I would love to see a last dance style documentary done on. there's probably like seven documentaries already going for that. Hell yeah, baby.

That's so recent. There's so much footage, I bet. I know. Next question. All right. Casey wants to know. This one's a lot of work, but I think we could power through it.

Casey wants to know if there was a hypothetical draft that had all the number one picks since 2010 in it at once. What order would they go in? So I'll read off the names for you guys. John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis, Anthony Bennett, Andrew Wiggins,

Carl Anthony Towns, Ben Simmons, Mark Hell Foltz, DeAndre, and Zion Williamson. So the question to me is Davis or Zion? I think it's Davis number one. It has to be, especially because he's still younger, right? He is a winning player now. He still has a lot of years left.

He's proven to be a superstar. 80s number one, right? Oh, I think without question, yes. And to me, it was the question between those two. And we're only going back to 2010. So look, I almost think it's easier. to start from the bottom, don't you? Really?

Anthony Bennett's last. Okay, so now we're arguing between Fultz and Wiggins. Fultz, of course. All right, so Fultz. All right, so there we got that one. And then Wiggins. Okay, this isn't that hard. Now we got Wiggins.

And so now I think D'Andre Aiton's got to be next. Aiton's got to be next. Okay. So now we're to. And then we got Simmons Towns Irving Wall. That's it. Simmons Towns. These guys can be argued a number of different ways.

That's for sure. I think from, I think I'd put John Wall next because of the major surgery that he just had. Granted, he looked amazing in the workouts. Then again, maybe. Because we do, yeah, do we, I guess what we're doing is we know the way their careers are playing out. Right. We're not saying at the time of the draft. Okay, then yes, John Wall has not had as good a career as Kyrie Irving.

I mean, look, if you're just talking accomplishment, John Wall has had more accomplishments than Carl Anthony Towns. He has. He might not be the superior player. But I mean, John Wall, you know, he was on playoff teams. He was an all-NBA player, first team, all-NBA. It's one of the top five players in the league in 2017. So I don't know if any of these other guys,

Kyrie's probably made an all NBA, right? I don't know if he's made first team all NBA. So this is the order of this. A.D. Zion, Ben Simmons, Carl Anthony Towns, Dawnwall, Kyrie, Ait, Wiggins, Fultz Bennett. Is that the order? Maybe you can shift around some of those guys from Simmons to Kyrie, the three to six range.

Yeah, I mean, Kyrie's, I mean, geez. He's made all NBA. He has not made a first team all NBA, but he has made. Is this, I mean, like with this hypothetical, is this for drafting for moving forward from today? Like, this is day one and you're drafting a player? Or is this like based off accomplishments? The best of the picks.

Yeah, well, I think it's like if you could reset them to all year one and they were all entering this draft, but you could have some foresight on to who they were going to be. The question is who is third? That's the question, right? We agree. We would take. we would take Davis one Zion two yep and then it's either Simmons Towns

Wall or Irving of the next group of four Kyrie's the most accomplished yeah he is I mean like it's but I said like what are you drafting for though and we're projecting on Zion you know what I mean

Yep yep Would you rather have John Wall Kyrie Irving or Ben Simmons Let's just do the guards Hmm I mean like I said with John Wall, he's coming off a major injury. I know. A major injury.

So that has to knock him down a peg. Kyrie Irving, always injury prone as well. It's got to be Kyrie, though. It does have to be Kyrie. I think Kyrie, with what he's done on the biggest stage and the biggest moments, it has to be Kyrie. And then I think it, and then Simmons and Wall, I'll give it to Wall because of his accomplishments so far.

Even I know he's got the injury, but if we're going back in time, this guy was a first-team all-N-B-A-level player. I mean, he was one of the best guards in the whole league. I know Simmons is too, but he hadn't done it yet. And he has got to, you know, be a guy that somebody has to guard in the playoffs when it matters most. You know, and I think one of the- He's in the dunker spot. He's in the dunker spot.

One of the underrated aspects of John Wall is he has gotten better as a shooter. He's shot over 40% on catch and shoot 3s the last two seasons. And that when Bradley Biel returns to the court, that's going to be critical for him, is improving as an off ball player with his movements, but at least already he's gotten better as a shooter off the catch. And I think that's something because he's always had the ball in his sand so much, has got a little bit overlooked and under the radar. But that's going to be critical for the Wizards whenever those guys are able to play together again.

And I think I'd go Simmons over towns, just because, I think it would be harder to have a crappy team with Ben Simmons than it would be with Carl Towns. So we got 80 Zion, Kyrie, John Wall, Ben Simmons, Carl Anthony Towns, DeAndreate, and Andrew Wiggins, Markle Fultz, Anthony Bennett. That's a fun question, Casey. Thank you. I can't believe we didn't fight a lot over that. Yeah, that was very civil. I'm very proud of you guys. Do you think any... Hey, inevitably, there's going to be people out there that are mad about it or think it's goofy.

Did anything strike you as overtly goofy, Bobby? I don't think goofy. I'm surprised that John Wall would be in the top five of those. It's been forgotten how good he was. I really don't know what we're drafting for. I mean, if we're drafting,

if we're drafting, this essential crisis over the parameters of the question. I mean, if we're drafting from today, John Wall shouldn't be in that spot. Oh, of course not.

Whatever. Thank you. How about this? How about this? How about this? From today, would you rather have John Wall or Markill full? John Wall?

You would? yeah from today i'm saying you know he's coming back from what is it Achilles Achilles now yeah i'd want john wall okay yes well you are done with Fultz I mean false still I mean look he got he had a nice year and he had a nice year with Orlando but he still can't shoot all right Bobby next question let's do some draft stuff uh Antonio asks in a bubble he knows development and who's on the board is subjective and everything. But when do you think it's okay to draft a guy that you see only being a role player? How high up on the board? It depends on the draft, right? Yeah, I mean, in this year's draft,

that happens early. But I would say there are certain times over the years when you're drafting a guy thinking he might, oh, maybe he'll be a nice rotation player for us. And then he pops and becomes a star. And, you know, think about somebody like Draymond Green that fell and you look at him as a potential rotation player. And that's a number one example, obviously. but that ties into what you mentioned about how situation plays such a role here and what a guy becomes. And I think in this year's draft, I've had a lot of debates with myself about how I want to rank these guys. Because you have someone like Lamello Ball who I can see him failing. I can see Lamello Ball if his shot never comes along because he's such a piss poor defender with his

effort and his focus. You know, there's a chance that his playmaking prowess never matters. And so much needs to get better for him. And if it does get better, he's going to be a star. But there's a chance he's a bus too. And I question, do I want to put a guy like that ahead of a Tyrese Halliburton, who I have a strong feeling will be at worst a high-end role player, a winning player on your team? But that may be all he ever is. He may never be a star. it's a real difficult philosophical debate within me and I'm sure executives and scouts are having these same conversations with each other and with themselves and I think this year you could argue like it's number one it's number one where you can start asking that question

because even though when is it okay to draft the guy you only see being a role player you know that there's a chance he's always going to be more than a role player and it's about finding those guys yeah it's just you know this was the just the general menaceous of my, you know, guys that won't suck, right? Just try to find the guys. And, but I do think there is a difference between a guy that you, you have a very difficult time seeing ever becoming a star, but you know he is going to be good, right? Like, he's got a high floor.

And sometimes, like you said, those guys end up being a lot better. The Malcolm Brogdens of the world. We've recently just had it this year of that rookie class we saw, which has been so fantastic. from a couple years ago that featured Luca and Trey Young, etc. Like in the second round, the Hornets took Devante Graham. He's obviously better than just being a role guy, right?

Like, he looks like a bucket getter and could have a destiny as being one of those Lou Williams types, possibly. So you ended up doing better than what you thought you were going to do. But I don't know, like, let's say a couple of years ago, in that draft, I had a very difficult time foreseeing a circumstance where McKell Bridges is some kind of a big star. But I also thought McKell Bridges, I mean, he's going to be good.

It's a matter of how good. Now, in fairness, the next pick is Shea Gildes Alexander. So clearly, that is not, right? You'd much rather have Shea Gildes than McKell Bridges. But when you got to that point in the draft, I certainly didn't think that that was unreal. reasonable. So I guess it just depends on the draft. And the other thing is what is just a role player, right? Do you look at Joaquin Noah and say he's a role player? I mean, this guy was all defensive team. He's an all star. He's the anchor of a 60 win, you know, a Bulls team on defense. I mean, is he a role player? He's not a star star. Glue guy. Yeah. I mean, is Al Horford?

It's funny. I don't know. You say glue guy, and I've said that in the past. And sometimes people have said, he's not a glue guy. And I'm like, no, glue guys are important. That's a compliment. Glue guys are critical to success in the NBA for any championship team, for any contending team. Blue guy is a compliment.

You want guys like that because glue guys help connect everything for the stars. They help enhance and compliment those stars. They are so important. I'd say as a general rule, once you get past the lottery, I have absolutely no problem with you taking somebody that you think is going to be a solid NBA player. Yes. As a general rule. And in this year's draft, because it lacks those stars, you know, one, one, two, three,

I wouldn't fall to team for taking a guy that they feel has a higher probability of being a role player and maybe slightly less chances of being a star because there's that floor for that player and they still have a chance to get much better. Yeah. And so if you got a guy that has a 5-10 NBA career and is in your road, if you get a rotation guy from 15 down, you've done well. There's only everybody will always remember, you know, the Manu Genobleys of the world and the yokages of the world and, you know,

swinging for the fences and those hitting. But there are, you have a much greater chance of finding somebody that doesn't even have a second contract. So as a general rule, I would say, you know, for the lottery, if you're a lottery team, I mean, swing for it, right? Yes. And that's why lamella ball might go one, two, or three.

Yeah. If you guys were GMs and like, say both of you got GM jobs at the same time, do you think that big win for the podcast? Can we still do the podcast? Can we still do it? I feel like Adam Silver might have something to say about that. Would you guys view yourselves as risk takers or conservative GMs? I am much more conservative than I was.

But that's just from, I mean, that's from watching, you know, just massive swings and misses from a team that I covered. There's no greater than that year that I brought up a couple weeks ago. I mean, I went to the workouts. I saw all the kids. Draymond Green was going to be good. There's just no way around it. And he would have fit. But that's the perfect example.

They swung for Tony Roten because Tony Rotten was 19 and Tony Rotten was, what is he going to be in three or four years? The answer was, of course, nowhere near as good as Draymond Green. And so I think I have just watched so many monster swing and misses that I would become much more, I have become much more of a sure thing guy, right? Well, you're scarred just like Evan is. Yeah, I saw OJ Mayo, I saw Hashim the beat. I mean, I saw literally over 10 years of horrible drafts.

Horrible. Until John Morant came or until Jaron Jackson, the last successful Grizzlies draft pick was Mike Conley. It's 10 years. And I'm talking like that had a career and made it to a second contract with the franchise. I don't think there was one player. I'm not kidding. That made it to a second contract.

And that includes OJ Mayo and that includes the team to beat. And so that includes like high lottery guys. Oz Javier Henry. I mean, I don't know if anybody, I don't think I don't think I saw one player make it to a second contract. And it was a bunch of big swings and misses. I'm sorry,

but you got to take some risks if you're at a GM job. It's just about taking the right calculated risk. Some risks for sure. During the, during the lifeline or the timeline. of your team and your rebuild, your retooling period, whatever you're in.

I mean, for me, if I were ever in a GM gig, you got a, you probably lean towards risk, but you're somewhere down the middle. I think if you're too conservative, you're just going to win 41 games every year.

There needs to be some element of risk there. Are you in the east? You might be a four seat if you win 41 games. I'm just saying, I'm just saying I was much more risky and thought, that way when I was younger and now I would be a much more conservative. But I think that's true of anybody that gets older. Hey, it's Bill Simmons.

I just wanted to make sure you were listening to podcasts on Spotify. Here's how you do it. First, search for your favorite podcasts on Spotify's app. They have a library of over 750,000 podcasts at this point. So let's say you're searching for the Bill Simmons podcast with rewatchables or Dave Chang's show or binge mode or the ring our NFL show. Once you find them, click on the follow button. That's how you subscribe.

Then click on those letters near the top of the app that say podcasts. You can't miss it. All the podcasts you're following will pop up separated by episodes, downloads, and shows. Wait, it gets better. On Spotify, you can adjust the speed of the pods to seven different speeds. 0.5 times is the slowest. I actually sound drunk at 0.5. Listen to this.

Yeah, you can get drunk bill. You can also do 0.8 times 1.4. Two times, which is my favorite. Everyone sounds like they had a good cup of coffee. You can do 1.5 times. You can do two times. And if you're completely insane, you can do three times. Here's what that sounds like.

Why would you do that? I think that's how we communicate with aliens. Anyway, Spotify's app connects directly to many of the best automobiles in the world. It even has a car play feature. That's pretty cool. It's really, really good. Best of all, it's free. Download Spotify on any device, and you are good to go.

I don't want to app shame you, but you should actually be embarrassed if you're not listening to podcast on Spotify. And if you don't believe me, listen to Drunk Bill at 0.5 speed. Tell him, Drunk Bill, the Bill Simmons podcast. Listen on Spotify. All right, let's do three more. Okay, so Justin wants to know what you all are doing to self-care mentally in this time. This is nothing new for me. I mean, I think ever since maybe a little bit before I moved to L.A. in 2018, I talk through things a lot, sometimes allowed, sometimes to myself. I think I'm very in touch with my own emotions and always have been. And that has been very helpful this past year for me with, you know, my dad gang diagnosed with cancer and everything, you know, that's happened since then.

And it's very helpful now, too. And I also think in terms of that mentality, it's, you never want to feel, one of the worst feelings for me personally in my life at certain stages is feeling stagnant. And now is a time where it's hard not to feel stagnant. We're all stuck inside or some of us aren't working. Some of us have loved ones who aren't working or who are sick or, you know, it's hard not to feel like you're stuck or even regressing. And I think focusing on self-improvement is one of those ways to feel like you're not in that rut.

So, you know, when it comes to, you know, like I said, the conversations with yourself or self-assessing or being in touch with your emotions is really figuring out what are your weaknesses as a person. What can you get better at? And how do you get better at it? So even if you're not making strides in your career right now or your dating life or your social life or whatever it may be, at least you can still feel like you're making progress as a human being. and that has been something for me that's been very valuable the last two or three years and something that I continue to do now, trying to make progress as a person, because that feels good. It feels good to get better as a person.

So that's something that I would offer as advice for having a self-care mentality and also for having a growth mentality. So thank you for that, Justin. I would say doing a bunch of stuff that I wouldn't have done other. wise. You know, I rented a dumpster and threw out a ton of stuff because I'm a pack rat. And I, you know, so that gave me some level of relief. I, taking a lot of walks, played with my kids a lot, played video games. I mean, everybody's going through like, you know, mostly the same stuff. You know, you're just trying to, I, I'm, I keep myself busy. You know what I mean? As to not think about this situation that is going on, honestly. So I stay. rather busy. And they try to fight off the boredom. I'll go, you know, I don't know.

I, like, I'll try to exercise. I'll try to, you know, fill the day doing stuff that maybe I wouldn't be doing otherwise, trying to take advantage of, you know, things I would never do, you know. And obviously, I've got two young kids. So that takes up an immense amount of my time. It just does. you know, they're 10 and 6 and so I'm doing stuff with them constantly.

You know what I started doing? I posted this the other night. Some beg me, he's been teaching me how to play Fortnite. I got to tell you, Kevin, I might be one of the 10 worst Fortnite players in America. Fortnite's hard, man.

I mean, I am so bad. And so here's what happens. The building in that game? I don't get it. I don't get it. I feel I'm too old for that. Listen to this. So, you know, they call them emotes.

Those are the dances, right? So the dances, your character can do this. And so you press down on like the sticks, right? If you got a PlayStation controller or the sticks, you press down in order to start dancing. But the problem is it's actually the down arrow. So here's the problem. Every time somebody runs up on me to kill me or something like that, I get real flustered and I start moving the sticks around. And my fat thumb hits the, my thumb's too fat.

So it hits the down button. And so somebody runs up on me, like to have a gunfight, I start dancing. And then they just kill me. And they're like, who is this idiot? And it happened to me like five times where I'll start like, somebody runs up to me and I'm like, oh. and I'm like, you know, ready to like turn to him and aim and pull my gun. And I start like doing the running man or some crap. And then they're shooting me and I can't figure out how to stop dancing.

I've gotten shot while dancing like four times. But the Fortnite thing, you know, obviously a connection, you know, that's what my son and his little buddies. That's how they're actually connecting with each other on their headsets. Is there some playing war zone at all called duty war zone? It's really, they really play Fortnite and they'll play 2K. And that's about it. That's what I've been playing a bit this week with some of my friends. It's been great to reconnect with them.

And that's important. I mean, you know, that's a part of it too is try to reconnect with some old friends, you know, just check in. Maybe give them a phone call or FaceTime with them. All those things add up. Just try to have as many positive moments as you can in your day. Well, and I got really lucky because one of the golf course I go to got the okay when this stuff started, that if they implemented all of these rules, right, these spread, out tea times and the shop's not open and the locker room's not open and you can't touch anything

on the course. You can't even touch the pins, nothing, but you could go out there and you could walk and you can play. And so I have taken advantage of that. And it's been a godsend, a godsend. Because I can go out there. It's wide open air. Not around anybody. I'm not touching anything and able to get some exercise and, you know, play. So I've done that too. Other than that, yeah, I don't. I don't know, trying to get stuff done that I haven't gotten done before or that I wouldn't under any other circumstance, but having to find something to do. I really like that dumpster one. It's a great idea.

Yeah, I do. You know, it wasn't that bad. That's the finest. It was, well, you know, here's the thing. I have, I am a pack rat. Like, I moved everything. Me too. When my parents got rid of their house, I moved all that, all my crap.

I wouldn't let them throw anything away. but guess what? It just moves to my house. And so then all that stuff then gets moved. And that's just packed and packed and packed it drives my wife crazy. So I and now all that, what's the girl on Netflix? Every, every everybody watch. Yeah, Marie Kondo, right? So Marie Kondo, her big thing, I don't watch it, but I'm aware. Every episode's been watched by my wife. She says, you look at something and you say, does this thing bring me joy, right? If a different, if a doesn't, then you chuck it. Here's the problem. Marie Condos never met me. Because if you show me a program that I got at a 1991 game that I went to with my father, I will tell you that that brings me joy, right? You're not throwing that away. That it brings you joy. That's good. Keep it. Keep it. It's cool. I have so many. But I do this with everything, Kevin. I will validate that that brings me joy. Some way somehow, I will tell you, no, no, no, no, I don't want to get rid of it. You haven't looked at it in 10 years.

I know, but I don't want to get rid of it. So I did, I took the leap. That dumpster, I got the dumpster. You should have seen the size of this thing. I should have sent you a picture. It's, I mean, it had to be over 20 feet long. I think it's $500 for 10 days. I filled that thing to the brim.

Filled it. And I still got all kinds of crap. But I did do that. And it did make me feel a lot better. I felt the sense of accomplishment throwing a lot of crap away. I bet there is 2 million baseball cards in that thing. Easy. I kept common cards from my parents' house.

And I just threw all of them out. All of them. So that was therapeutic. I like it. I like a Marie Kondo reference on the Ringer NBA show. You like that? You have to love it. Let's do these last two.

Let's fire through them quick. Aaron wants to know. I love this question. My question for you guys is if you could play a 3V3 basketball tournament where you had to be on the team, who would be the other two guys? LeBron James. That's one. And Kevin Durant.

I'm not, all right, I'm going to let you have Durant post Achilles. I got to see him first. Right? A three on three. Not James Harden. I promise you that. Oh, yeah.

Of course you wouldn't pick him. He'd be actually a good choice for a three on three. I'm trying to win the thing, right? Well, well, Steph Curry has to be one of the guys, right?

So I'm taking Curry and Janus. That's pretty good. That'd be a heck of a matchup. Listeners got to let us know who wins that. You would hold them back so badly. I could contribute. Hell, they throw the ball.

ball to me versus Kevin. We'll see about that. I'd have the best matchup. Chris, Chris, I'm a try hard on defense. You're a try hard. Oh,

you're a foul. You're a fowler. I'm a try hard. I never said I foul. I'm a try hard. But on the, on the offensive end, I'm not productive offensively,

except as a passer. And I'll screen a little bit. I'm not sure I'd want to screen Yonis on to the Kumpo. So I'm just, so I'm just, hey, we're just, we're just discounting you and I'm getting the, I'm getting to run in and dig on a double team

every time those guys get the ball. I like that question though. That would be a hell of a game. That'd be fun. Actually, that's actually a good idea for, you know, some type of content in the future. Get like a common man. A normal person.

Yeah. I mean, do you know, I don't know how much everybody would be rooting for the normal guy to just score a bucket. That would be funny. I mean, we have the Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Tiger Woodsville-Mickinson golf tournament, you know, which is obviously far different, but similar concepts, you know, I'd love to see this. I want to see it. You know?

By the way, before we get out of here today, last thing, earlier in the week, we talked about the NFL draft. I'm a Cowboys fan. C.D. Lamb is about the most fun pick in the history of picks. So, of course, I was on Cloud 9 last night. You, in typical Patriots form, traded down to get a couple more picks. Were you depressed as the draft went on? Are you happy and now looking forward to this weekend even more? No, I mean, I'm used to it.

I mean, I'm used to Patriots trading down. This is nothing new. There was nobody when their pick came up, there was nobody that you were yearning for. No, I have eyes for Jalen Hertz. Oh, boy. I'm interested, very interested in Jalen Hertz. All right.

Jalen Hertz. Well, we'll see. We'll see if maybe you end up with, end up with Jalen Hertz. You know what? Probably not as a, you know, over the years, as a Patriots fan.

I can never remember a time. The Patriots drafted the guy that I've won them to draft. A lot of the times those guys have ended up being successes. The early days I wanted Stephen Jackson. I wanted Tyron Matthew. Those guys ended up being successes.

There's some guys that ended up being bust that I wanted, you know? I think I wanted Vernon Goldston one year. And that's okay. I'm used to the Patriots dealing it their own way. And trading down has proven to be a success. And by the way, starting to be a common trend in the NBA as well at the top of the draft. It's a good way to pick up more assets. Sometimes, and sometimes, you know, the boring thing is the thing that,

up being the best for your team. I mean, I'll never forget a couple of years ago. I'm sitting there and the kid had obviously just played at Texas A&M. He's dropping down. Oh, my goodness. The Cowboys are really going to get Johnny football and he's going to back up, you know, Tony Romo until the Romo era is gone. And it comes the pick and everybody's like, oh, my God, is he really going to do it?

And they end up taking Zach Martin, offensive lineman from Notre Dame. And everybody was like, oh, what a buzzkill, right? Well, Zach Martin is like an all pro every year. He's been part of this amazing offensive line. And Johnny Mansell isn't even like in the XFL anymore. And how about the Packers drafting Jordan Love? Oh, wow. I mean, I mean, shocking.

Aaron Rogers is so mad today. So mad. God, did you, how heavy was that Jordan Love stuff? Were you still watching? No, I wasn't. watch them. Oh my God. This poor kid. Both parents in law enforcement, he's 14 years old, goes to a basketball tournament, mom calls back home, his dad's a policeman, uh, mom calls back home, she knows something's wrong, leaves the basketball tournament, goes home, that guy has, he's committed suicide.

When his father, and the kid is 14 years old, you want to talk about a kid that you want to talk, You don't talk about a kid that you can't, you don't know adversity. My God, I was watching that. I'm like, this is the heaviest thing I've ever seen. I can't imagine. Oh, my God. I'll root for that kid because Lord knows he has been to hell and back. That's the worst thing I ever heard.

Man. Yeah. I hate to be a downer at the end, but that Jordan love story, that Jordan love story got, for anybody that didn't know it as you're watching the draft, you're like, oh, my God. You know, though, this sort of ties to what we talked about earlier in the week. you know, with Bill. You know, Scotty Piffin's background with his dad and his brother being, you know, in wheelchairs and the poverty that they had growing up.

And, you know, these are, these shape who these people are. And I'm sure Jordan Love has become quite a leader and quite a person that Green Bay is going to want to build their franchise around. That's right. And you never know what somebody's been through, you know. How many times have we talked about that before? You talked about that all through what you. you are going through. Be nice to people because everybody's got something.

Everybody's got something. Everybody does. Everybody's had something or has something now or will someday. So might as well just be kind to people. Thanks as always for listening to another episode of The Mismatch. Bobby, you're the man. Thanks for Bobby Wagner for producing another episode and we will

talk to everybody on Tuesday. Have a great weekend.