The Ringer NBA Show - Bucks Win Game 5 to Take a 3-2 Series Lead | Postgame

Episode Date: July 18, 2021

Immediately following Game 5, KOC and J. Kyle Mann get together to discuss another exciting Bucks win. They start with Jrue Holiday's impressive performance (1:30), then they discuss the evolution of Giannis (12:00) and if the Suns will be able to force a Game 7 (22:45). Plus, have the Finals taught us anything about how teams should approach the draft (29:00)? Hosts: Kevin O'Connor and J. Kyle Mann Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Flying Coach is back for a second season. Peter Schrager and Rams head coach Sean McVeigh are joined by guests from around the sports and entertainment world. They're discussing the latest NFL news, telling stories from their careers, and breaking down games from their unique perspectives. Check out Flying Coach Season 2 on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Kevin O'Connor, joined here today by Jay Kyle O'Man, following the Bucks 123-19, Game 5 win on the road over the suns to take a three-two C. serious lead. Kyle, it felt like at one point it was going to be a big suns blowout, 16 point lead in the first quarter. It feels like at one point it's going to be a huge bucks blowout. And then it gets

tight at the end and we got a really good game down the stretch. That was fun to watch, man. I loved it. Incredible game. I mean, a lot of fortitude on both sides to not go away and to come back. Like you said, we had a lot of lead shifts and changes. You know, the bucks fought back from that big deficit early. We had big shots. We had big miss shots. It was sort of a Shakespearean play there towards Ziena. It's amazing. If that one had ended with like a game winner or something, that would have gone down as a pretty memorable finals game.

Not that it won't anyway, but yeah, really entertaining, a lot of drama. Heck of a, heck of a gutsy performance by Milwaukee. No doubt about it. And we have to start on that Milwaukee side with Drew Holiday.

27 points, 13 assists, only two turnovers had three steals. He had two of the steals are going to stick in my mind for a long time. In the third quarter, he had the on ball steal against Devin Booker, then took a pull-up three in transition. And in the final minute of the game, helping off ball on a drive by Devin Booker, strips the ball.

Yannis runs the floor and he throws the alley-up to him for the dunk at Holiday. Both ends of the court, all those Eric Bletsow comparisons from games one and two feel like such a distant memory, Kyle. Holiday was extraordinary. I mean, what a freaking performance of both ends. Big balls. That's the only thing that comes. I mean, like those plays that he made, that one three that he took after he just straight up Rip Booker. I was just stunned that he had the stones to take that. And he nailed it. Yeah. And then the presence of mind, you know, the refs aren't going to necessarily call a foul like that every time in a situation like that. I mean, he kind of forced them to make a call. He got a little bit of wrist, a little bit of hand on that swipe down when he came over a weak side to steal that from Booker. But, But yeah, when he threw that lob to Janus, I almost thought he threw it over the cylinder.

Like it almost looked like he threw it into the cylinder. And when he did that, I stood up in my office. I just couldn't believe it. I mean, he's just, he's been so up and down with his approval in these playoffs. I feel like, you know, in terms of like we were, we were lauding him for being underappreciated and then we were dinging him for not showing up. But man, he is, he's really, really answered the bell throughout these playoffs. Like you said, I mean, 13 assists tonight. The creation from him has been huge, you know, gigantic. He was extraordinary. And it didn't start out well either, though, because he had the two early files. Bud took him out of the game around like the 640 mark of the first quarter, down five points. And at that moment, I'm thinking this to myself, Kyle. Is Bud making the

right decision here? Should he be riding with Drew Holiday the rest of the first half when Phoenix, first quarter when Phoenix is looking good offensively? And then the lead, lead balloon to 16. And I'm thinking, oh, no, big mistake. Like, that's going to be one of the things we're talking about after the game. But it kind of worked out because bringing Drew Holiday back late in the first quarter and then into the second quarter, he was feasting during that stretch when Aiton was out of the game, getting to the room with ease, hitting jump shots, and continuing to play elite defense as he had through the entire series. And that just didn't stop through the entire rest of the game. It was just from after the.

two fouls early on. It was a dominant performance. And I watched this guy and obviously the Bucks gave up a lot for him, multiple first round draft picks. And at the time, you know, it's worth it to get Yonis to resign and to get this player who is a very good player. But for a long time, people talk about, well, guard defense, you know, how important is it at peak levels in the postseason when offensive players are so hard to stop?

And it's so hard to stop a guy like a Damien Lowe or to Stefan Curry, Chris Paul, a Devin Booker. Drew Holliday is showing the value in it. Like, he is making life really hard on Chris Paul when he's defending him primarily. And then anytime he's on Booker, it's way harder on Booker. Yeah. His hands are just so, he has those like lanky, strong hands that if you get, and he's like deceptively strong, like, that's a big thing too is that like, Drew can take bot can absorb body bumps in a way that's not like demonstrative. So like it's not going to be as conducive to fouls, which means he can play more physical. And he still has a lot of foot speed, whereas PJ has that quality, but PJ still is a little slower, you know, and can't recover as

quickly. Yeah, I mean, it's important throughout. Guard defense obviously is always important. You make a lot of good points here, though. Like the shot making throughout this game, that's kind of what some of these playoff games come down to. It's like the schemes can gridlock at some point. Both of these teams that reach this level, obviously you're executing at a high level. And it comes down to shot makers. And I thought, you know, Booker and CP3 made their fair share. CP3 had some incredible shots. That one where he went to the baseline and shot that fade just straight up. I mean, CP3 is like six feet tall. That's an incredible shot that he hit. But yeah, I mean, I agree. Holiday has redeemed himself in these last, well, tonight and these last. And these last

couple games. He's been he's been phenomenal. And you mentioned shot making, Chris Middleton as well. He had another massive game for the bucks, 29 points, 23 shots, five assists, hit that massive stepback three late in the fourth quarter, extend the lead from five to eight. And you mentioned how sometimes, Kyle, the offenses can get a little bit stagling at times. You know, when you go a lot of pick and roll, sometimes that can happen. But I do like how the bucks are utilizing Janus as a screener, 32 points for him tonight. Sixth and says zero turnovers. I like the Middleton, Janice Pick and Roll that tends to lead to good results. And for all three of those guys,

Janus, Chris Middleton, and Drew Holliday, there was a great stat that ESPN tweeted out tonight. Janice, Drew Holliday, and Chris Middleton are the fifth trio in NBA finals history to each record 25 points on 50% shooting in the game. They're the first to do it since James Worthy, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Magic Johnson in 19. That stat kind of just sums of what we saw from the three of them clicking all on the same nine at the same time. Like this is, it's hard to beat the bucks when they have Janus. It's really, really challenging to beat the bucks when you also have Chris Middleton

and Drew Holiday just going off. Is there anything the suns can do to slow these guys down? Or is it just the nature sometimes of their games? They are streaky shooters. It doesn't matter what the defense is doing. They're going to be on or they're going to be off. They had a lot of success and like dribble pull-ups out of. the pick and roll in like that third quarter span. I didn't write down the time. I mean,

that's insanely difficult to do if they're going to drop there. Like, you know, the bucks were kind of hunting for their mismatches. If CP3's in the game, that's always going to kind of be a tradeoff. I mean, Middleton's one of the best dribble pull-up shooters in the game. Then you have one of the best hard rollers. I mean, or I think Janus is one of the best downhill penetrators at his size ever. And you've got to contend with that. That's always something that can collapse your defense. And yeah, and then when if Drew is getting to the rim or Drew's hitting shots, if they're functioning on all cylinders like that, they're insanely tough to stop. I don't, those things are so, they're not like scheme dependent so much as they are just sort of these forces that can kind of take place at any time in the offense, whether it's in like the secondary part of the offense or late clock. They also have shot makers late clock.

I think the other thing that's important that I had written down here was just that, you know, this Milwaukee big three is legitimately two-way when they have it going. Like if they have it going offensively, they're just really, really tough to stop. And the shot making, when they're hitting shots, man, they are a legitimate, I know that we've kind of talked about how, you know, there are some, who here is really like a worthy title team in any other. their given year. But I mean, they are, they are like a historically tough team when they're playing the defense that they've been playing and hitting shots like that. So, I mean, some of those things are, it's going to be, it's going to be really tough for Phoenix to, to game plan for some of the just primary things that Milwaukee throws at them. And that's kind of what I expected going into the series, to be honest. What you just said reminded me of, well, made me think of the Philadelphia

76ers. And we've seen the bucks now reach the finals up three, two. They're on the doorstep of winning at all. The Sixers have fallen short every year with the Joel Bid Ben Simmons core. And I'm just thinking about how you have this dominant interior presence in Janus and the formula we're seeing here is perimeter shot makers and Drew Holliday and Chris Middleton, who sometimes they go off, sometimes they don't. But they're good. They're very, very good players overall on the offensive end. And Drew Holliday is an elite defender. Like the Bucks found the way to build around an elite interior player in Janus. The Sixers haven't. You know, like the Bucks have done a good job. I think credit needs to be given where it's due

here with the way in which the Bucks have constructed the roster around Janus, especially with spacing in today's NBA, this is how you do it. And for this Buc's team, they're getting that two-way play. The Sons aren't necessarily always getting that. You know, you mentioned Chris Paul earlier, Kyle, and I feel weird saying this because he has 21 points. He has 11 assists and only one turnover. but it's just it doesn't feel like Chris Paul is 100% right now. He only played 35 minutes. There's so many instances in which where I don't find him attacking with the same level of aggression as he did earlier in the playoffs.

And of course, you know, he's dealing with a wrist injury. He was out for two games with like the health and safety protocols. He like historically has had some lower body injuries. Of course, earlier in the postseason was out. I even though the stats look good and he had some magnificent moments as you said with some of those mid-range jumpers are just unbelievable. I still don't feel like Chris Paul was all the way 100%. Do you agree with me about that? Or am I seeing things here?

I think it's a combination of things. I don't know that it's necessarily one thing. They're defending him pretty damn well in the mid-range. I mean, that's another part of it. And also, I mean, he's not really, he hasn't been a rim attacking guy for a, while. I mean, he really does live on getting you into that mid-range and manipulating you with his, you know, step back, side-step kind of stuff. He doesn't totally look right. I mean, he only had one turnover. You know, so I guess he's not hurting you on that front necessarily,

11 assists in this game. I was really interested. I had a question I wanted to ask you about Janus. So, you know, we love talking about development. Yonis is only 26 years old still. He may have turn 27. That's just what B-Beeball reference said. But do we think that Janus in these playoffs has sort of hit a turning point? Because it definitely seemed like he was obsessed with like, I have to expand my game to the perimeter in order to become a, you know, a dynamic enough superstar to be like truly unstoppable. I feel like we've seen a shift from him of really embracing the idea of creating offense through screening through like getting rid of the ball early offense you could kind of

see him doing that tonight what have you observed on that front are you seeing similar things from him i'm 100% with you and with yonis it's the type of thing what i was thinking about tonight watching is a lot of all-time great players figured this out how to conserve energy throughout the game and explode in the fourth quarter yonis was very much pass first and he did have a moment of exhaustion where he did look tired to be fair over the first three quarters. But he was largely pass first, like you said, creation through screening, through playmaking. And he stepped up his aggression in the fourth quarter as well with his attacking mentality. He was able to run the floor hard on that Drew holiday lob opportunity.

And I think that shows a sign that he's seasoned. He is figuring things out in how to play 40 plus minutes in the playoffs. I mean, this is something weeks ago during the play. playoffs we're talking, is Bud going to play Yonis more than 35, 36 minutes? Well, yeah, he is going to start doing it. And Yonis is figuring out how to dominate over the course of those 40 plus minutes. And that is something all the great players you hope figure out at some point, is how to sustain elite play while also playing more than you ever usually do. Is that where you sort of come from as well on your thought about the evolution that we're seeing during this postseason with

Yanis? Yeah, and I think it's sort of a broad conversation about like what stars do as they add to their bag as they go through their career. I know, I just feel like the thing that we, and it could be just sort of the public discourse is just misguided on this, but I feel like with superstars, a lot of times they'll add a facet of offense of like self-created offense. Now, I still think that Yonis should shoot 10,000 followways this summer. That's always been the shot that I want him to master because I feel like it would be unstoppable. But, um, he's sort of not totally doing it that way because I feel like he was stubbornly having this like this I don't mean bipolar and like the mental illness way I mean like

this dual pole thing where he was like saying I have to either do this mode of offense or this mode of offense and he's sort of relaxed on that I feel like that dualities I guess a better word for it um he's focusing on one of them you mean like he's all downhill now he's not worried about shooting threes well he's he is he is still embracing his downhill potency, but he's not saying like either I'm going downhill or I'm going to pull up. Like he was doing that even in these playoffs and I was ready to like throw my remote through my TV. I know a lot of people were. And I feel like he's eased up on that and embraced what screening, what getting rid of the ball early in the offense can do for the buck's offense because we saw

it over and over again when he would ram his head into the wall. It's just like no one's moving when he does that. The defense is set when he gets rid of it early and you saw it. them late in this game, they were running primary offense where they would run through these wrinkles and it would end with Janus catching it at the elbow with some space to attack. You know, because Aitin is going from focusing on these first few actions, whether it be like a dribble handoff or something so his eyes are moving. And then, okay, the end of the play here is Janus catches it with a step on him going to the rim. And that's where he's at his best, you know, as opposed to him catching it early clock or in transition and just being like, I'm going to, I'm going to

ram my head into the wall and get to the basket. It's just changed up the way he attacks and made him more effective. I mean, he's, he's been tremendous, but he did look very tired throughout this game. He did, but he still managed to dominate. And, you know, you also have to give credit to that Bucks coaching staff for evolving and putting Giannis in some positions to succeed as well. But with Monty Williams, Kyle, with him, I feel like we mentioned earlier, Chris Paul getting only 35 minutes. Devin Booker had a stretch in that first half where he sat six minutes straight and the suns couldn't generate any offense at all.

And I know it might sound silly to say Booker played 42 total minutes in the game. But are we at the point here in the finals when you're down 3-2 that come game six, one of the slight and easy adjustments for Monty Williams here is to just play Devin Booker who had 40 points tonight on 33 shots more and to play Chris Paul, assuming there's nothing wrong, we don't know that there's anything wrong, more than 35 minutes in a must win game six. That feels like a given to me. I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

That has to be an adjustment. If you're going to go for it on that front, now is the time. I mean, Phoenix. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, both of these franchises have existed since the 68, 69 season. Nice. And they've been around for a while. So, and, you know, the Bucks won a title early on with Kareem and with Big O and Bobby Dandridge and all those fellas. But it's been a long time. So, I mean, now's the time to not be conservative. You know, you might as well go for it. I'm sure Chris Paul is ready to freaking die out there. So I mean, I'm sure that he's willing to just put it all on the line. No load management in the playoffs, please, not in the finals. No, not at this point.

Don't let that happen. You know, who knows if these teams are going to be back here? It's always you have to think about that because sometimes you assume you're going to be back and maybe you won't be because things can play out a certain way. So it's kind of, I don't think that would need to be imparted on these players. They're going full bore for sure here. Interesting too, though. I mean, just some role players that I thought played really well. I mean, I thought Pat Conantton, I've kind of given him.

some spot praise here throughout this series. I mean, four for six from three, 14 points. He had a great game, man. He had some tip out opportunities too, where even if he didn't get the offensive board, he was there and he tried to create an opportunity, little stuff like that that goes beyond the box score that never goes in as anything. That energy is contagious. Bobby Porter's too, right? Yeah. Bobby Porte's, like, Kyle, I have an announcement to make here. I'm a member of the Bobby Portis fan club. I am. He's, he's tough, dude. I know, I know he's not like a a great player. And sometimes he makes mistakes.

Like in the first half, Jeff Van Gundy said, Bobby Portis needs to be more disciplined on defense because he went for steals twice and he missed. But I feel like the decision to go for those steals comes from a place of like trying to be a defensive playmaker. And in the third and the second half, he did get one. He got a, he did get a pick six opportunity. So his aggression is part of the quality that defines the bucks and what's making it

harder on the son's offense. and I love Portis's contagious energy. I love just the eyes and the intensity. I love him. He's a gamer. I'm a Bobby Portis fan, Kyle. Do you think that he was the hardest boss on the game Cuphead? Or was there a harder one?

Have you played that game? I don't know if I'm getting the right reference here. Kevin and I struggle with our references. Just Google that one, Kevin, and it'll make sense to you. He looks like a villain from Cup. because he just has this cartoonish. Wrong definitely reference in my head. Yeah, he is this just, this just like cartoonish intensity.

But no, I mean, I think I said this to Justin very earlier the other night that. Like I think every good team needs to have just this fire that this sort of uncontrollable fire that you sort of throw out there at different times. Like I've said, you know, it can burn the other team down or it can burn you down. But it's good to have it. it's good to have it during those stretches where you need to pick me up or see there we go look at that that's a that flowers ago anyway yeah i mean con back to connoten briefly but like this is going to be the white guy cliche thing but like he's just a great one step jumper it's like a

great job for him he can make open threes and he's really athletic and i was going to ask you this guy could have been in the melb and he's an NBA player was he just was he just like an athletic god in high school. Can you imagine that guy? He would be like, oh, there's Pat Connettton. I hate that guy. He's good at everything. Anyway, but yeah, yeah, he played well. We got seven minutes from Jeff Teague that were fairly inconsequential. Say Conantin, too. Can you say Conantin in the most Bostonian way possible, say it for me, for me? Pat Conantton. That Conantton guy. Jesus, Christ. That's the guy selling tickets outside of TD Garden. That's a very specific. specific Boston impression. But with Pat Connison, prior to the draft, Kyle, I had him in one of my

iterations of my big board ranked in like 40s or 50s. I forget exactly. And of course, he was drafted 41st in 2015, but I had a GM call me about my rankings that year. And he says to me, he tells me who I'm too high on, who I'm too long on, and like he was wrong about plenty, right about plenty. Pat Conkton, he says to me, this dude should be a top 20 pick. He's like, this guy's this guy's going to be a player for a long time. With the, like, everything we're talking about tonight, I remember that GM saying to me, like, I thought about that while I watched the game, when he went for that tip rebound that I mentioned where he didn't get it, that it popped into my head, the memory of it because, like, he's not a great player. And like, he's not even for that

matter, a great shooter. He's 35% from three for his career, only 37% of, this year. He's not a knockdown 45% guy. But the dude's a gamer. Like I said with Bobby Porters, he just makes plays. He brings energy. This is exactly the type of guy that you want to surround Gianna Sant'A Cumpo, Chris Middleton and Drew Holliday with as guys like Bobby Portis and Pat Conantan. And of course, PJ Tucker being, you know, the guy who symbolizes that type of attitude with what he brings. You know, just watching these bucks in the finals. It's been up. Up and down at time depending on the performance of Drew Holiday or the performance of a Chris Middleton when they can be streaky. But the roster makes sense. And that's why they're here.

And that's why they're up three, two in the finals against another team in the Suns that's constructed very, very well. The Suns are a great team besides the backup center spot. Is there any chance here that this Sun's team down three to, two, having to go on the road now in Milwaukee, really tough to play there, man. Like Deer District outside, they're going to bring that energy into the arena for game six. How do you feel about Phoenix's chances at least forcing a game seven, Kyle? I mean, it's definitely possible

because this series has been so competitive and you have, it's always possible that we've, we don't want to, we shouldn't get misled by the streakiness of the play, like that it has streaked in a good direction for, for Phoenix. But another thing to consider, too, is brutal production from the foul line tonight. I mean, Middleton didn't get to the line.

a night, but Yon, I had a moment there where I was just like, man, is this, Janus has played so well. Is this what we're going to remember that he blew these free throws at the end of this? For the game. Jesus. Yeah, really, really tough. I mean, it's definitely possible. I mean, they could get a little bit more out of Aiton. They could get a little bit more out of bridges. You know, the perimeter players didn't get going as much tonight, but it could happen. I guess the question is, do you think that, do you think that there's anything that Phoenix can do to sort of spread the offense out a little bit to get everybody involved more? Or is this just the way that they're built and Milwaukee has kind of

figured them out in a way? I mean, quote unquote, heavy quote unquote, figured them out because Phoenix almost stole this game tonight. But they've clearly done enough to bother them to make it, make it more difficult. I mean, you and I both picked Phoenix. I picked them in six. I did two in six. I don't know. I throw it back to you. Do you see anything that they could exploit or maybe they could tweak or adjust to attack? It's Chris Paul, I think. I mean, I don't think he's right.

I don't think he's 100%. The Chris Paul that we saw to close the series against the Clippers, 24 shots in that final game, 41 points. The Chris Paul, we saw to start the series, 32 points on 19 shots in game one, 23 shots on the 20 shots. in game two, and emphasis on the amount of shots, 24, 19, and 20, since then 14, 13, and 15. I want to see Chris Paul playing 40 plus minutes, and I want to see Chris Paul taking 20 plus shots. I mean, like, I do think it's important to spread the love and, you know, get some creation from everywhere if you can. But you got to have Chris Paul at maximum efficiency, at maximum production on the offensive end. And you didn't get that in terms of score.

scoring tonight. Again, like I know it's weird to say when he had 21 points and 11 assists and only one turnover. But just watching the game, I don't feel like he's there all the way like we just saw him. And that's partially due to Drew Holiday, 100%. But as you said, it's a tough matchup. But as you said, like, he is hitting some extraordinary shots still. Like, I want to see more of it from him. Is it fair to ask? Is that fair? I think that's pretty fair. Kevin. I don't think you're out of line for saying that at all in that game six of the only finals that he may ever plan. I mean, for all we know, you know, I mean, looking at the wings, too, you know, McHale Bridges was five for six and campaign was, uh, campaign was three for seven,

Cam Johnson, two for three. Cam Johnson only 21 minutes tonight. I mean, those guys shot well. It just seems like campaign, um, was involved. They've done a good job keeping him from really, uh, his, his like offensive production, like swelling and really swinging the game. It seemed like, it, just seemed like there was a real lid on that. And, you know, Milwaukee has, like, the switchable length to, that isn't as easily exploitable. So, I mean, I could see how that happened, but, or maybe campaign just got hot and he's kind of cooled off a little bit.

Maybe it's a little bit of both here. But they, they've done a good job putting a cap on that. Yeah. He did have that ankle injury in game three of the Clipper series. And his offense, like, that was one game after he had the 29 points performance when everybody was talking about Cameron Payne and the great story that he is because he's been great all season long. I wonder how much that ankle injury could be affecting him, if at all, or if he's just pressing

in these high pressure moments here. I do wonder which one it is, but he's another guy that needs to be better. You got to get more out of your back court. Are you going to change your prediction for the series, Kyle? Like, obviously it can't be Sonson 6. You don't get to do that. You don't get to do that. No, no, no, no.

You don't get to do that. I'm sticking with it, man. I said up top that I expected Milwaukee to have some of these advantages in their big three. I mean, that's not, that's sort of a flip-floppy thing to say. I mean, I did expect them to give problems, but I still expected Phoenix as sort of cohesive fluidity and strength as a unit to be the thing that would put them over the top. But, man, stars make a big difference in this game. And, you know, Milwaukee has three guys that can create theirs consistently.

Phoenix at a high level and Phoenix has pretty much two. And it's interesting in the next few years how this is going to shake out, like how these young players are going to develop. Because if they can get development, like creation development, I heard McHale Bridges talking on the old man in the, or no, it was on the Longshot podcast, good podcast. I was hearing him talk about his own development. That's something that he really wants to do. You did a great video about that. I mean, that's going to be huge for the suns going forward. I don't know that they're going to get those kind of leaps in the short term unless they like touch the obelisk from 2001 and just like leap forward and in their knowledge but um yeah i mean the sun's just uh sometimes it comes down to stars

and creation honestly that's that's kind of the funny thing about basketball one last question here and i'm also curious for everybody who listen to us record this live on green room on late saturday night early sunday morning depending on your time zone um is there anything from this series or the overall finals, Kyle, that you've taken and thought about it in terms of the context of the NBA draft. This might be our last pod during the finals because there won't be a game seven next Saturday. So I'm just curious about, has you learned anything or is there any player in particular

that has made you think about a certain prospect or a theme or a skill that you might be looking for in the NBA draft? What have we learned about how teams are going to build moving forward, I guess? I don't know how much has really changed. I mean, you obviously want to look for big-time shot creators who can flip their gravity and get rid of the ball and create. You obviously want to have shot makers. We've seen those guys have an impact on these series. Just having switchable big players who have like switchable length but also are strong.

If you notice, that's something about the Milwaukee players that's important. Lanky strength is important. You know, Janice has that. They all can kind of, gosh, I mean, like, there are times where Drew can check five. I mean, he's so strong. He can't, like, he can't, like, body and, like, stop like a post-up, but sometimes he can. It's, that's important. So, I mean, you know, shot making and defensive versatility, I think those things have

been true for the last few years. I don't know that anything has, like, seismically shifted on that front for me. Has anything for you? No, not really. I think a couple of things in the chat. Matthew M. said drafting older players doesn't seem as bad. Of course,

we've seen that with somebody like Cameron Johnson. It never was. It never was. It never was. It never was. It was always just a thing that, you know, people have said. And maybe you won't draft them high over some of those younger, higher upside prospects. But it's really nice to have a quality player at a rookie deal, you know, because Cameron

Johnson would be getting paid $12, $15 plus million dollars if he hit the open market this offseason. and Matt W. said, draft the bloke that can get you a bucket. And that has me thinking about one guy that I'm going to be ranked. I'm going to have ranked much higher than I think I've seen anywhere else. Can I guess? Take a guess. It's one of a few people. Is it Bones Highland?

No. Or is it, let's see, is it Trey Mann? No. Is it Book Knight? I do have Book Night higher than I did in my past rankings. but the guy I'm thinking about is Cam Thomas at LSU. He's a, Yeah, he's a guy that I bumped from the first round the other day.

I mean, we all did. But like with Cam Thomas, that dude's a bucket, man. He's a bucket. He can score from anywhere, hand in his face, get to the rim. I don't know. Like he, like I think about can this guy play in the series in two years, three years? Oh, yeah. That's a question to ask yourself when it comes to draft prospects.

But we'll be doing some more draft prospects. stuff in the coming weeks, Kyle. You get a video you're working on about Jalen Green, big breakdown about that. Are you working on anything else around the draft or around the finals? Not specifically around the finals of the draft, but I have another, I have another longer thing that I've been working on for a while that's going to come out hopefully, you know, right after the draft about a pretty legendary player that is still in the league right now. Okay. Cough, Kevin Durant. Thought a secret. Okay. Yeah, not a secret, really. I said it on Twitter.

anyway. But yeah, those are the two things I've been doing. But watch us. We're going to be doing a lot of draft coverage coming up and talking about the draft. Lots of draft coverage coming up. But of course, we have at least one more finals game, Kyle. I'm looking forward to game six next week. I'm thinking we're going to get a seven here. We're going to get a game seven. That'll be our prediction. We're going to get a game seven.

Man, both of these teams are playing their asses off. Like it is not that they don't typically in the finals, but this has just been fun to watch to two franchises that haven't been here in a while, two fan bases that are like legitimately like not well I won't say that but I mean about other fan bases but they're just they're passionate fan bases and they love basketball and it's been fun to observe for me and yeah I hope we get a game seven yeah I really do because this series kind of deserves it these teams deserve historically this deserves that drama I think no doubt about it I hope we get it like you said players playing hard DeAndre eight and 45 minutes grinding

defending yannis it's been a lot of great performances individual games, great moments, the holiday to Yanoslab. I hope we get two more games of that. I hope we get two thrillers. That's what I want. Two thrillers, Kyle. But this was fun, Kyle. Good chatting with you on this Saturday night, man. Always, man. Always. Let's do it again. Thank you for listening to today's episode of the Ringer NBA show. And thank you to Carlos for producing it. If you like the show, please be sure to share it with your friends. And also be sure to subscribe to the Ringer NBA show. We'll be having live green room recordings of the NBA finals. So we'll have one after game six.

And then there'll be another one potentially after game seven. And I'll also be recording the mismatch with Chris Vernon on Tuesday night and Thursday night this coming week. And Jake Alman will have a video coming out, I believe either next week or the week after. I'm looking forward to seeing that. Thank you again, everybody for listening. Hope you have a fun rest of your weekend.