The Ringer NBA Show - Caitlin Clark and the Fever’s Rise, Sky’s Youth Movement and the Aces’ Three-Peat Quest | Ringer WNBA Show

Episode Date: September 6, 2024

Seerat Sohi kicks off the debut episode of ‘The Ringer WNBA Show’ by talking with Indiana Fever play-by-play commentator Pat Boylan to discuss the Fever’s latest hot streak and the rise of Caitlin Clark (1:36). Seerat is then joined by Annie Costabile of the Chicago Sun-Times to discuss Angel Reese and the rest of the youth movement happening with the Chicago Sky (32:38). The show wraps with an in-depth conversation with Nekias Duncan about the defending champion Las Vegas Aces and the bumps on the road they’ve hit on their quest for a three-peat (55:08). Host: Seerat Sohi Guests: Pat Boylan, Annie Costabile, Nekias Duncan Producer: Brian H. Waters Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, humanoids. It's the Maskman David Shoemaker. It's a new era in professional wrestling, and that means a new era here at the Ringer Wrestling show. Kaz here, every Monday and Thursday hang out with me and my guys' shoes on the Masked Man show. And Ben Cruz here. Come kick it with me, Cal and Brian on Tuesdays for Ringer Wrestling worldwide, where we hit on the most interesting headlines and even react to some of Maskedmans and even your hottest takes. Don't tap out. Tap in to the Ringer Wrestling show feed now on Spotify. or wherever you get your podcasts. Worldwide. Welcome to the inaugural episode of the Ringer WNBA show. I'm your host here at Sohi.

I am so excited for the episode we have coming up for you guys. We're talking to Pat Boylan, the play-by-play voice of the Indiana Fever about the Caitlin Clark effect about the Indiana Fever's recent success, the momentum that is building around her around the WNBA in general. Really great conversation. Then we're bringing in any cost of bile of the Chicago Sun Time to talk about the Chicago Sky, their recent skid, the culture that they are trying to build on that team. Then we're going to close it out with Nikias Duncan, the host of the Dunker Spot, one of the best basketball thinkers that I know. We talk about Asia Wilson, the Aces, the links, and the playoff picture.

So without further ado, let's get into it. All right. Without further ado, our first guest is Pat Boylan, the play-by-play voice of the Indiana Fever, who was also ranked recently with his broadcast partner, Debbie Antinelli, as the number one broadcaster for the WNBA by awful announcing, which is not necessarily the website name that you want to be, give you that ranking, but, you know, they do know their stuff. So congratulations. Just one of the many members of the Indiana fever lately that are piling up accolades. Yeah.

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I did have to explain to my wife. This fortunately does not mean I was number one most awful. It is actually a very nice praise. And we have brought Debbie Finnelli back this year. She was with our telecast for a long time and well before I got here. And we've added Kelsey Casper.

And we have a great production crew. So really this feels like a team award. And it's cool to get recognition what's been obviously just a thrilling season here. You're just deflecting credit like Caitlin Clark here, you know, making sure everybody's involved. Love to see it, man. I'd love to see it. But no, really, you guys do an awesome job. It's part of the reason I wanted to have you on.

I'm really excited to talk to you. You have been in the center, the voice of one of the biggest stories in sports. It's Caitlin Clark's rookie WNBA season, which has recently included her winning Eastern Conference rookie of the month, player of the month, Kelsey Mitchell, leading the east in scoring. Second in the WNBA since the break behind only Asia Wilson. You got Caitlin leading the W in assists, all rookies in assists. It's just, it's been an incredible time. like it's been a lot of fun to watch.

And I think the thing that I keep going back to now, especially after the break, with the 8-1 start to the break, the fourth best of league over that span, second-best offense, just everything firing off all cylinders, this energy, this ball finds energy joy that's emanating around the team. It feels like the Iowa phenomenon has finally completely touched down in Indiana. And I'm just wondering, you know, from your perspective, as somebody who is in the city, who is around the team all the time, what's this been like for you? Have you had any like, holy shit? This is really, really real right now moments.

Yeah, before I answer that, I want to make it very clear that, you know, the WNBA and the Indiana fever too, even though times have been a little tough year for a while, is been in a really good place for a long time now. And the upward trajectory has been there and it's been there for this league. it would be there with or without Caitlin Clark. But just her arrival has turbocharged all of that. And of course, nowhere is that felt stronger here than in Indianapolis and Indiana. And with the fever, have I had one of those moments? I have like 10 per day. I mean, I feel like I just walk around scraping my jaw off the floor 24-7.

And it's so, so cool. I think I've had this just smile on my face out for like four months because to have this level of attention and recognition that in a lot of ways probably should have been there before this moment, but is here now because of just the spectacular arrival of Caitlin Clark. It's just been so thrilling to be a small part of what's going on right now. You know, you go into our building every single night and it's completely sold out. And not the sellout that we used to have, which was somewhere but the balcony, it's every seat. And you walk around. And you walk around, Indianapolis a few hours before a game like we're getting ready to have here. And you see

22 jerseys and gear at the level of like Indiana, Indianapolis sports history like Reggie Miller and like Peyton Manning. And it's like a light switch flipped one day and all of this changed so dramatically. And you know, it's just been so gratifying to be a part of the ride here. And you touched on it. I mean, she's just she's been the whole package. I mean, everything on the floor has been spectacular, but also just witnessing how she handles every single challenging question that's been thrown her way with grace and with intelligence. And she never says the wrong thing. And it's great to know that this is an ending, right? I mean, usually as the regular season is coming to an end, at least the last few years, we've been getting ready to close up shop. But we know the playoffs are

back here for the first time since 2016. Yep. Yeah, clinched a playoff spot. A really special moment. just, it feels like, you know, to your point about maybe the credit should have been here before, I can definitely, you know, definitely, yes. But at the same time, there is this magnetism that she has. You know, I think it's just one of those inherent realities of anybody who's in public life is that some people, they have a way of just connecting, just capturing the public's imagination in a way that just makes you want to follow them. And Caitlin just has that ineffable things. And Caitlin just has that ineffable thing. It's just, it's really, it's really hard to describe, but you know it when you see it. And I think the thing that's been so fun and so interesting to watch, um, with her, um, especially as you

get more into the details of it. Yes, there is, you know, the play style, which I definitely want to get into with you, especially with how good they've been after the break. Um, it's fun. She's just, she whips passes that nobody's ever seen before. There's a logo three's. There's just a style. combination of so many different players that you've seen before that have, you know, captivated our imagination, which, you know, I love, I love playing that parlor game if you ever, if you want to get into that at any point as well. But the one thing that, you know, really strikes out to me with her is that she's just completely unafraid of trying, of what it's going to take to become the type of player she wants to be. And I think that's the core thing that has

captivated us and has now translated now that we're seeing that how quickly she is like traversed this learning curve and is capable of taking control on the WNBA stage in the same way that she was at Iowa. It's like all that investment is back again. It's like can she do it? Can she achieve all this greatness that she wants to achieve like the scope of ambitions are so they're so great and they're greater than proving her own individual greatness which I think is really cool too. Like I think in Iowa, you felt this sense that she really wanted to put the team, the city on the map. Like, she was really invested in that. And you kind of see that same sense of purpose kind of coming across in Indiana too.

There's a good chance they'll finish out strong. There's six of their next seven games. They're at home. That feels like a bit of a reward for how crazy their start to the season was. All those games jam-packed into 20 days. And I'm kind of curious what you think about the playoff picture because, you know, right now it's looking like they're either going to play the Minnesota Lynx or the Connecticut Sun. It feels like they are probably, there probably just isn't enough time left in the season unless they run the table and the storm lose out every game, basically, for them to sneak into that fifth seed. So it looks like they're going to be locked into that six.

the Sun and the links are tied right now. The Sun hold the tiebreaker. I think both of those matchups are so compelling for so many different reasons. But I'm curious, is there a team that you would rather see? Is there a matchup just from a media sports writer, like sports analyst's perspective that you would be more excited about? What are your thoughts? Well, I think I first go in and analyze that. And I think as we've looked at the playoff picture here over the last few weeks,

and from the quote-unquote analyst perspective, I'm okay missing New York. The fever have beaten New York, but I mean, they seem, look, they're loaded, and they seem on a mission. And I know that this has not been a typical regular season for Las Vegas, but the fever I've only beaten the aces, I think, one time since they moved to Las Vegas.

So that's also another team. Look, back-to-back champions, all sorts of Hall of Famers all over the roster. if you don't play one of those two teams, I think you're in a position where you've got a real chance at pulling off an upset. And I do think it would be an upset because if they're going to be the road team,

they're not going to get high enough to have home court advantage. And the way the playoff works is you've got to win on the road to even have a chance to come back and play at home. Minnesota and Connecticut are both veteran-laden teams with a lot of talent. And if you told me one of those two teams ended up in the finals, it wouldn't shock me at all. That said, I think they're fairly favorable matchups for Indiana. Indiana's beaten both of those teams already once this year.

They're going to try to beat Minnesota a second time on Friday night. But I think they are winnable matchups. Will they be the favorite if they play there? No, I don't think so. They probably should be. Both those teams have had great, great years. But if you look at the fever from June 1st to now, they're 17 and 8, which I believe is the third best record in the WNBA.

So outside of the first two and a half weeks in the just absolute insanity of the beginning of the season, the fever have been playing at a Connecticut and at a Minnesota level. And I look at it, you know, the question kind of reverse or flipped. If I'm one of those two teams and I'm looking at potential opponents, I would have to say the fever are at the bottom of that list, at least of potential teams that you can play in that first round series.

So it's great to be talking playoff matchups, haven't had a been able to do that in quite some time. And as the playoff picture gets a little more crystal, crystallized, I think we'll have a chance to maybe hone in just a little bit more specifically on those matchups. But I think the fever have a great opportunity, if they do end up in sixth,

depending on really whoever they play. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I personally, I want to see the links matchup. I just think that it would be so much fun, like the two best offenses in the W, my two favorite teams to watch just because of the style of play, the passing, like all the, you know, the links are impossible, honestly. Like, you know, I think I would probably, if I was thinking about the fever going farther,

I'd probably would rather see them play the sun just because of how hot the links have been and, like, they make themselves completely unguardable. But, I mean, the feet, like, it's just, that would be a high, like, high-powered, high-octane offensive series. That's the one that I want to see. But, you know, you mentioned the crazy start to the season. I really want to dig into how we got to now, basically. Because I think that there were a lot of factors.

But I want to start with how bleak things looked. Because I think with how good things are right now, it's really, really easy to forget. And I just don't think it can be understated how quickly and dramatically things have flipped, both in the win column and in the general vibe around the team. Like, we're talking about, you know, those first nine games as a season,

you have, oh, there's a one and eight start just in general, but you have a lot of stuff going on, you know, it's, everybody's dealing with this unprecedented level of attention. Alia Boston,

she misses a game-tying layup against the sun. She has to delete her social media because she's getting death threats and she just needs to take a break from all of this, like swirl of negativity. Every day is a different culture war. Everybody wants Christy's head. She looks, I mean, I don't know.

I mean, maybe stress is just Christy's general posture because even with the wind, she is squatting just as much. Her head isn't her hands just as much she's just, maybe that's just a way that she operates in general. But it just felt like there was so much pressure around the team, so many eyeballs,

so much scrutiny. and the simple fact of nobody likes losing, you know, like let alone Caitlin Clark, who's never lost that many games in her career. Like, I'm just curious what your experience of watching the team was in that moment. If there's anything that you would say, you know,

just being around them that was important in helping them pull themselves out of that place. Aside from, we'll talk about some of the common sense stuff because I do think there were, there are just like as extraordinary as this has been. The reasons have been kind of ordinary, but just, you know, was there anything behind the scenes going on? Like, who was kind of pulling them through? Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, you're right in that it was just an absolute pressure cooker.

I mean, it was, it was every eyeball, in America it felt like on this team that everybody thought was going to take off. And then all of a sudden, you're one and eight. I mean, Christie's sides has, I think, overcome as much adversity. as any coach in recent memory that I can think of in any sport. And you think about her being coach of the month here as we're talking and then go back to some of the betrayal that she was getting back in late May. I mean, the turnaround there simply in of itself is stunning. And it was one of those situations where, you know, I was on a million different radio

interviews here in town and nationally. And I kept trying to stress, listen, you can't. not evaluate this team fully right now because all they have done is play just about every single of the best teams in the WNBA. Almost all of those games were on the road. And with a team that's brand new to each other, your leading scores, say after Kelsey Mitchell are all first, second, and third year players, you're going to have to give this thing and the schedule normalizing before you truly judge them. Yet, of course we know that's not how sports works,

fandom works. Now you get judged based on what's happened. And oftentimes, you know, that is exaggerated in the beginning of the season because it's the only thing we have to go off of. And I was just kind of cautiously optimistic during all of that because, look, Caitlin Clark's playing at a much higher level now than she was then. But even in those early games, she was showing some real signs. of stardom to come.

I've seen what Kelsey Mitchell can do for a long time. We saw what Alia Boston could do last year and have seen it in college. So I was optimistic that this would turn around from the perspective of the pressure cooker was going to relieve itself. And the hard part about it is you can't control any of that, right? I mean, you can't control getting 11 games in 20 days, playing Connecticut three times, New York twice, Vegas once, Seattle, two or three times. I mean, it was just a murderer's row of the yearly schedule,

but everything always balances out. It's a schedule. Everyone's is about the same by the end of the season. And so now we're seeing that as the schedule has normalized and gotten a lot easier, the fever of taking advantage. But there was a moment in Connecticut, and I think this was maybe lost number nine. I think it was that moved them to two and nine.

If I'm remembering correctly, they got blown out in the first half. The game was over by half. halftime. But in that game, Christy Seid's, you know, decided to sit most of the starters for a lot of the second half, but left Alia Boston in there. And Boston got going. And if you remember, she had struggled in the early few weeks of the season. And from that moment on, Alia Boston was the Alia Boston of old. Going from that game forward, she was terrific. And it was almost like that is what was needed to relieve pressure on everybody else.

You know, Caitlin's gotten going, Kelsey's gotten going, the schedule's gotten easier. And I think Christy did a really good job of when times were tough early in June. I mean, there was a practice where they got done early and they just went and played pickleball. And there was a time when during the Olympic break that they went and played baseball. And just to try to relieve some of that pressure that everyone was feeling. And I think that was really needed at the time. And, you know, the other thing that I think shouldn't be understated here or can't be overstated about this turnaround is, for example, in the NBA, you get 82 games. You get months to kind of figure things out early on.

Lynn Dunn, one of my favorite phrases to describe a WNBA versus an NBA season came from Lynn Dunn years ago. It was now the GM, but she was the coach at the time. And she said the WN, the NBA is a marathon and the WNBA is a sprint. And so if you think about the turnaround, the fever had had, and they've been afforded half the amount of time to do it that an NBA, that an NBA team would, I think it makes it even more impressive. And it is, it is stark to go back and look at the first three weeks of the season and to look at them now. But I think, you know, really everybody on that roster, the coaching staff deserves credit for getting it turned around. Because I think it was easy to imagine the fever looking like they do now, but maybe not this year. And for them to look like that this year right now, it is really significant, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. And I loved hearing Chrissy's side to talk about joy. I think it was, I can't remember what game it was now. It was a couple games ago, but she had a press conference where, you know, she was just saying there was like there just wasn't the joy that she wanted. She wanted to emphasize that. And it was just kind of hard to string that out of, you know, the fatigue and the pressure of all those early games.

And that is so clearly apparent and abundant now on the roster. And she just finished it off just saying, like, I've never been more proud of a group of players. And I thought that was really interesting. Again, it gave me the sense that, like, regardless of what happened in terms of what it meant for the win total for that season, that that, that run really seemed to galvanize them over the long term. And like, almost maybe culminated in the game against the sun earlier this week where Kelsey Mitchell going into it is basically saying, we are not getting bullied. Like, that is the one thing. And they, you know, they pull off their first win against the sun all season. And I think their first win since 2021 against the Sun, this team that just kind of has an ability to push them around, get them out of their offense, you know, make them work to just even get into basic actions.

And like the fact that they're able to now win these types of games is really, really encouraging. Because like, you know, going in, Nick, you think, okay, like, you know that the games that Clark goes off and the shooting is hot, that things are going to go well. And, you know, when her, when her passes are hitting on target, like those are the, those are the games. games where you have a real shot, but they're winning these games now where they don't necessarily have all of that going. But they're finding ways to grid it out. And I just think that like alongside that start, the many changes in the starting lineup, I think have been so important because it feels like they have found this perfect balance now with Lexi Hull and, and Temi Fekbenle in the starting lineup, like just as far as like this mix of,

defense, shooting, size, cutting, transition. Like, I love what Temi does for the pace every time she's in the game. Loved it early, then she got hurt. So she wasn't available. And now, like, it just feels like they are hitting on all cylinders. In terms of, like, that kind of, you need this alchemy as a starting lineup, I think, to thrive in basketball. Like, you kind of have to have multiple elements going. And they seem to have all of these elements that allow them not only,

only to get off and transition and run, but to also be really good in the half court. Like, I feel like Alia Boston is that sort of the yin to the yang of all of the running. She just, it has been incredible in the, like, in the half court off the short roll when Caitlin gets trapped. She's throwing out incredible passes. And just sort of, and honestly, Melissa Smith, too. It just feels like somebody that we don't, we haven't really. about a lot as a collective in terms of deserving credit for sacrificing. It feels like she has just

turned herself into this roving potential dribble handoff candidate that also just creates a lot of gravity at the rim and has been rebounding and blocking shots and just probably is sacrificed and adapted more than anybody on the team. And it's just, it's really, it's really fun to see it all come together. Like that's kind of, it's why we're here, right? It's why we watch sports. No question. And I think your comments on Alyssa Smith are absolutely true. And I think maybe the most underrated storyline of this Indiana fever season is Alia Boston's ability to do just that. Because there have been stretches where the fever had needed her to go be

the 18 and 10 and 4 block type of player. And then there have been stretches where Kelsey Mitchell is on another planet and can't miss and Caitlin Clark's doing her thing and the fever haven't needed her to be quite as involved offensively and her ability to be permeable what the team needs that night and to provide that in the fever's last game she statistically was fantastic double double 14 rebounds was really good defensively at the rim she's a great screen setter um the fever needed her to beat that to beat the sparks. But in Dallas, and in some games recently, as Kelsey Mitchell has caught fire, the fever haven't needed her to be a big time score. And that has not been a problem that has caused no issue. And the way that she can kind of transform,

I mean, she's just the ultimate big from that perspective in that whatever you need from her, she can provide it. It's not going to be a problem with her. She is not going to cause any sort of locker room issues. She's just going to go out there and do what the team needs. And sometimes that's only taking five or six shots per game and it's to defend the rim. And sometimes it's, we're going to toss you the ball 20 times on that low block and you're going to, you know, spin your defender into into a cyclone and you're going to dominate. And I think without having a player that's not just willing, but capable to do that, the fever are not here right now. Um, She's been the one, I think, that has adjusted the most game in and game out.

And there's an intelligence to that, too. It's an understanding. And it's a picking up on this is the type of game. So early on against Los Angeles, they were double teaming on the perimeter. They were sending all sorts of pressure. And so it was one-on-one down in the post with Alia. We're going to let Alia eat. And she did.

And she was fantastic. And then there are games where, you know, that maybe they send a couple of bodies her direction. and Kelsey's hot and they don't need her to do that and that's not an issue. So I would say that is the most under-discussed storyline of the 2024 Indiana fever season here so far. We've seen all of the terrific displays from Clark and Mitchell and of course at times Boston too and Lexi Hull has been such a glue piece to all of this. But it's Boston's ability to know what the fever need nighted and night out and provided. I think that's been just absolutely massive for this group.

And look, we're talking about somebody who was the number one pick, who was a rookie of the year last year. Like, this is not an easy thing to do for someone who has been in that position, who was the center of the offense and the center of the franchise to have somebody like Caitlin Clark come in. And, you know, it's also something that I've seen some of the players talk about, some of the Christy Sides talk about too, is her leadership as well, her ability to kind of be the vocal yet like soft-spoken person. in that locker room. I'm curious if we have you been able to to bear witness to any moments like that where she's kind of just helped them you know because it also it feels like like Caitlin in particular like she's she's talked about how much it helps her to have somebody like a leo around and you love seeing their sort of like their pregame ritual of like you're going to be you're

going to play amazing because you are amazing like that stuff that stuff is really fun to watch but it feels like they're developing a really a really good relationship. and seems to be credited in part to, like, Boston's just grace in handling everything that's come their way. Yeah, I think the balance and personalities there is really noteworthy because off the floor, she's easygoing and a great speaker and all that, but you get her on the floor and she's extremely tense, she can be tightly wired. It's what makes her great, right? But it's, it's that switch that she puts on. And don't get me wrong, like, Alia can turn into that too. I'm not trying to say that she didn't have the killer instinct. She absolutely does. But you were mentioning

Christy sides a little bit earlier here in this podcast and how she's very intense also, right? Like you never have to wonder what Christy's thinking. You never have to wonder what Christy's feeling. She's running up and down the floor, you know, hands in the air when something's going good, crouching down with her fist clench when something's going bad. There was a moment and I'm unfortunately spacing which game it was, but it was within the first 10 to 12 of the season. and mostly during the stretch where things were not going all that well. And at one point, Alia just kind of came over.

And I think she could tell that Christy was really fired up and taking, you know, a lot of pressure and just trying to persevere through all of that. And Alia just came over. Never do you see this. It was, I thought it's such a cool moment. The player came over to the coach and she put her arm around her and basically said

something to the effect of, we're going to be all right, coach. He talked about. that after saying it was just it it was what i needed in that moment um and for a player to be able to deliver that is really significant and for a player in her second season people forget this too alia boston's young for her grade or her draft class she's also 22 so alie is 22 and katelyn's 22 and alie is only about three or four months older than kately so yes it is her second year. Yes, she is, you know, grade-wise and all of the draft class wise a year older,

but she's basically Caitlin in terms of time on this planet, right? And I mean, so just maturity that she has been able to bring this team, one of the biggest things that young teams in any sport sometimes struggle with is not having enough veteran leadership and not having somebody that can do that. Now, I do think the fever have that. I mean, Erica Wheeler is absolutely that. Demiristontis is impactful in that regard. But they've, some of their young players are just wise and mature beyond their years. And I think Alia's personality really just meshes well with Caitlin's and with Christie's. And, you know, Kelsey is a little different. Kelsey, when she came into the WNBA, was so, so soft spoken. And

she still is soft spoken. But like, she's kind of found her voice. a little bit too in all of this. And so it's been fulfilling to see just all of these different players because they came together for the first time only a few months ago. I mean, that's so easy to forget it too. This isn't fantasy sports or this isn't a video game.

Like, it takes time to game chemistry. It takes time to get to know your teammates and to figure out how each other works on and off the floor. And I think if there's one theme of this season here so far to me, it's just how quickly all of that has progressed. That's such a great moment. And it takes so much emotional intelligence.

It takes so much awareness. And to also, you know, to be in the situation that she is, she's trying to find her own game to still be able to look outside of herself and see that someone else on her team also needs a pickup. And it's her coach of all people. It's just really, that's really cool to see. And yeah, it's like it almost feels like she's like, she's like the release valve for this team, like not only on the court, you know,

passing out of these traps, but also off the court, just being like that sort of the cool wind in a hot, on a hot day sort of thing. And it's also, you know, to your point of how quickly all of this has come together, one, the whole Caitlin Clark experience has been really cool. And I appreciate you coming on here and just shedding some more light, giving us some insight on Caitlin and the fever and this, this incredible run that you're kind of in the center of. I keep, I guess, you know, I hope you, I hope you have fun with the rest of it. And before I get you out of here, like, is there anything you want to plug? No, not really. I, you know, I appreciate the time here very much. It's been a fun conversation

to have. And I guess, you know, just like we started this conversation, like, I'm pinching myself every day. This has been so cool, so gratifying to be a part of it. You know, I think if I'm fortunate to do this line of work for another 30, 40 years. I mean, this will be something that will always go down as one of the most thrilling moments of my career and just personally getting to witness all this firsthand, getting to have a small role in all of it. And, you know, I think I've done more interviews or podcasts or TV news appearances in the last two days than I have in some season. So what it all boils down to for me is it's just so cool seeing this league get this type of attention. It's been so sorely deserved and hats off to Caitlin Clark for

being the type of person and player and working on her game behind the scenes when no one was watching to allow this moment to come. And we're just getting started. I'm so excited to see where all of us are going to go the rest of the season and for years to come. Yeah, it's really cool. Thanks, Pat. And stick with us and we'll be back after a break. We're going to be talking to Annie Costabial about the Chicago Sky. All right. Next, we've got Annie Costabial from the Chicago Sun Times.

She is a great reporter. She covers the WNBA, specifically the Chicago Sky, which have been one of the most fascinating teams in the W this season, open out the gate, really no expectations. you know, had Angel Reese, Camilla Cardoso, both coming in. Everybody assumed this was going to be a rebuild year, and, you know, Kennedy Carter really gets it going. It seems like they're starting to not only win games and buy for a playoff spot, but build a real identity around, like this almost like Bad Boys Pistons-esque style of toughness and grip, but also togetherness. And it felt like there was a lot of, you know, just a whole bunch of really gritty, misunderstood players coming together under Teresa Weatherspoon and finding this organic culture. And then Marina Mabry got traded. And then there was a bunch of, you know, Twitter drama.

And then, you know, you had some players, former players coming out saying things about the franchise. and you get some injuries, potential COVID, just really every, like the thing with the Chicago Sky's skid after all of that, they are one in eight coming out of the Olympic break, is that it feels like it has so many different culprits that you almost, you have to dig in and sort of like separate and compartmentalize each piece. So Annie, we're very happy to have you on to break all of that.

down. I am curious what you initial thoughts on everything that's happened in this very like this unprecedented Chicago sky season. Yeah, first and foremost, congratulations on the podcast. I think it's great to see you guys joining the W space in this way. And it's always, I think, incredible to see more outlets bolstering their W coverage. So just wanted to start by saying congrats on the podcast. And I'm excited to listen and happy to be here. Secondly, to your question, I think for me, this isn't the most shocking thing. And I do think you make a good point in terms of, oh, it seems like there's multiple culprits. Because sure, you could attribute this skid to multiple things.

But what I always go back to is, you know, the analysis from the beginning of the year and my observations from the beginning of the year that obviously come from years of covering this league and years of covering professional sports, right? Like when you're a beat reporter, there's things you can can project before the season even begins. And when you have a team like this one that has such young talent and then you add a first year head coach, the biggest question to me, and not even just young talent, but then inexperienced talent in terms of playing together because they do have veterans on this team, right? Like Lindsay Allen, Diamond DeShields are just two. of them, for example. Some would say Michaela Anywherey, like after the year she's put in,

she's at that kind of middle ground era where she's not exactly, you know, young talent anymore and she's getting into her veteran status, Dana Evans as well. Like, these are experienced players, but they're new playing together. Couple that with obviously the new coach. My projection at the beginning of the year was, or the question I had in my head was at the beginning of the year was, how are they going to handle adversity when it comes? Because there's always adversity that comes, right? There's always a moment in the season where you're exposed, where the kind of the aura fades and now it's, things get real. How are you going to handle that moment? And to me, looking at this team, I knew that would be a challenge. And that's where they are right now. They're in that moment where it's like,

you guys came out of the break. Every team has an understanding of. every other team and you guys have not adjusted to that well. And I think that's, that's kind of, to me, the overarching issue with this team is their youth and experience playing together, going all the way up to the top because when push comes to shove in these moments, that's when the experience matters. That's when the veteran leadership matters. That's when all of that comes together and allows you to pull out these, these two-point games. You know,

that's the difference in a win and a loss in a two-point game is the composure, the experience, and obviously those things are hindering the sky right now.

Yeah, I mean, let's just like, let's go through the laundry list of things that have sort of happened since the break. And, you know, definitely pause me if you have thoughts

on it, on any of it. But going, even before the game started again, there were screen recordings of Kennedy Carter liking a tweet suggesting that she was the biggest part of the sky's turnaround in the first half of the season.

I don't think she's wrong necessarily at all. She's been one of their best crunch time performers. She's been incredible in the clutch all season. She's obviously one of the more unstoppable scores in the W. I think the sky have played. more crunch time games in any team in the W this season and they are five and four since she started since she entered the starting lineup and there were two and seven before that so the the numbers

are right there for you she's always up there like and it feels like that just you know just and also like maybe maybe some of like the the cohesion that I imagine had to happen after you know the whole Caitlin Clark Fiasco really gave them some juice and gave them, you know, just like you got, you either kind of come together or fall apart in those moments. And it felt like initially they, you know, they came together. But I'm curious like just we haven't seen a lot in terms of, you know, off like, you know, in the press conferences or anything like that. But I'm curious if there was any fallout after that happened. Yeah, I think, I think as far as a tweet goes, to me, again,

like, I just, you can't take social media too serious. Like, that's for me, how I perceive things. Like, I remember, you know, this past season with the Bulls. And someone came in and we, like, the media, we were all kind of wondering about

Zach Levine, like, taking the Bulls out of his bio and when that happened. And if it happened after these, like, trade rumors. Right? So there is, like, some, some, I don't even want to say legitimacy, but curiosity when something happens on social media. And that obviously rightfully so. But at the end of the day, these are professionals who are similar to ourselves. Like, you have to be able to disconnect from social media and realize like what's serious and what's not.

So to me, the biggest takeaway from from Kennedy liking those tweets, which again, I never even saw this screen recording. obviously became aware of it because it became this discourse on Twitter, on X, whatever we want to call it. The biggest takeaway for me is, is again, like, this is where experience matters. Like, this is a young player who has had a lot of highs and lows early on in her career. And to me, just as an adult, and I don't, I think a lot of people misconstrue the word ego. I'm about to use it. And I don't want it to get misconstrued. But we, We all have an ego, right? Like we all, and a lot of times we make decisions from an ego-based place.

And so to me, seeing Kennedy like that tweet is her ego acknowledging, like, what you said, what is true. And the thing with sports is you have to balance your ego. You have to be that person who believes in your chest. You're the best person in the room. Like, trust me, I operate that way. Like, I have an ego that I have to tell to calm down because I'm like, Annie, you're not in threat mode here. No one's threatening you.

Like, you don't have to walk into the room, like, with your chest out and your Superman, superwoman, like, you know, under shirt showing. It's like, just show up and let your work speak for itself. And so I think for Kennedy, you know, there is no denying what the numbers are saying. And it's that the sky are a better team when she's on the court. Now, the problem with that, or not even problem, but then the challenge maybe. The what needs to happen then is as a team, you need to understand that your greatness doesn't diminish another person's. And then that also is your teammates' job to understand is like, my teammates' greatness doesn't diminish my own.

And so I think those are the challenges for young players to navigate at a young team, an inexperienced team to navigate is like, okay, this is how all of our personalities mesh together and how can I show up and leave and check my ego one day and you show up and check yours the next day. Like these are all the things that contribute to a successful team. And I know that having covered, you know, a championship team. Like I always use the 2021 season as a point of reference because you're talking about players with who could show up like you're talking about candace parker can'ts parker could show up in every room and if she wanted to be like i'm the best i'm the best i'm the best i'm the best i'm the best and and maybe some days she did have to

show up and say you all need to fall in line i'm not saying she did that i'm just saying she could if she wanted to and so again part of being successful together is learning how to fit all the puzzle pieces together, ego is included because ego is part of sport. You need an ego to be successful in professional sports. You need to be highly competitive to be successful in professional sports. So that's just my take on it. Yeah, I mean, I imagine that it probably even twofold for Kennedy, too. Like, I love that you sort of mentioned, like, when you go into a room, you have to sort of remember sometimes, like, I'm not in a threat situation. I don't want to psychoanalyze too much for somebody that I don't personally know. But I imagine for someone who has had like her ups

and downs in basketball, has been in and out of the WNBA, but has always been really talented, that she probably feels like she has to be more of an advocate for herself than somebody who has gotten all of the credit and has had more of a traditional path and had that security to, like, knowing their role on a team. And this, you know, to go from being where she was to now getting all of this credit, you know, really being considered going into the break, like one of the biggest all-star snubs, like just things that she hadn't really experienced before. It's a lot for a young person. It's a lot for a young person in the spotlight. Like, you're, it's like navigating success really is one of the hardest things. And I also love that you mentioned the whole social

media thing because it just does seem to be this thing that the rest, like the team, Angel specifically, seems to understand because of the way that she uses social media. Like she has this way of being able to just get everybody bent out of shape, but then like log off to a degree. I was listening to her podcast, the first episode of her podcast, unapologetically Angel. And one of the things she said that she's learned is that social media isn't real. And for Angel, for Caitlin, for Kennedy,

for like, for the athletes like in the W right now that are young and have been, thrust into this unprecedented spot. Like that just feels like one of the biggest lessons for all of them to take away, really is just that like none of you, you can't get sucked into all this stuff. Like I imagine you and I just in our, our job sometimes gets sucked into it. And it's like the degree to which we face it is so much less and we're older and like have, you know, it's just, it's just been honestly like one of the more fascinating things about getting more into the WNBA and women's sports

has been watching how these young women find different ways to navigate scrutiny because there are so many ways that you can do it and it's just I don't know I just I just I find it very interesting and you look at this team specifically it does feel like you know like you mentioned ego I think like kind of building off of that like I think shadows are are a big part of of like any, any person's identity, any team identity. Like, if you build an identity based on what they were building off of,

you know, what they are trying to build off of this toughness, this grit, these people who have been misunderstood, and are trying to come together. And, you know, it feels like organic. It feels like this thing just sort of naturally developed. I do think we are kind of seeing the other side, the dark sides of those traits sometimes too. Or like when you are struggling, then if you do feel like you're somebody who's

misunderstood. It can be a little bit harder to, or just like, I guess, more of a challenge in a way to bounce back. And then like with the on-court stuff, it just feels like, it feels like there's more combustibility. There's a lot of potential in this locker room. There's so much talent. And there's so much fire. You know, Angel Reese has fire. Camilla Cardoso has fire. I don't, I don't think that that's something that a lot of, like, that's, her story has not really necessarily been told that way, but she's very competitive and she also just seems like somebody who's very loyal. But at the same time, it's just a lot of energy. It's a lot of energy in one locker room, I guess. As you learn about who you are as a team, I'm curious how it will go in terms of

reconfiguring potentially around Camilla, who just seems like she's a better offensive option at this point. Yeah, I love this conversation because, again, I mean, haters are going to hate. It just, we've all experienced it. It is what it is. It's part of life. And so everybody loves to talk about Angel's efficiency and Angels are professional. So Angel can talk about her efficiency too. Like Angel's not blind to the fact that her efficiency needs to improve.

She's talked about it. It's something that she is going to be actively improving and actually is actively putting in the work now. I mean, she works directly with the Sky Skills and Development Coach every day before and, or I guess I shouldn't say before because I'm usually not there before, but like shoot-around's practices. She's usually the last one or one of the last ones in the gym getting that one-on-one work with him. So anyways, Angel's efficiency, when you look at, again, her track record and the player she is

and the workhorse she is, the person she's shown herself to be. be in this game. You've got, you, you have to go based on what we've seen thus far. And, and she's proven, she's year by year improved her game. So again, at professional level, you, you got to assume, based on what she's done in the past, she's going to continue to improve. Now, the one thing that she talks a lot about as well is, is being a stretch for. And that's something in the future that will lead to a better connection between Camilla and, and, herself because the sky needs somebody that's going to space the floor, right, in order to get Camilla involved in a way that will lead to ultimate success. Because at this point, you've got

two bigs, like you kind of said, when defenders are able to sag off of Angel and double Camilla, it's like that's not going to be able to happen if Angel's extending her shot and is able to extend her shot and improve her efficiency because they're not going to be able to sag off of her in that way. And so that's going to create, you know, more options, more opportunities for Camilla. So again, yes, to your point, like, Camilla is a star in this league. I remember talking to GMs about, you know, the player she is and coaches. And because early in the draft projections, excuse me, there was some questions about,

whether the sky we're going to take her here or not. And so Camilla is not a player you can pass up on. You know, she's not because she's got a lot of people compared her to BG. And I think obviously BG is the ultimate. And players will say that, coaches will say that it's a fuck. Sorry, I almost said the F word. It's a back. You're fine.

Yeah. I was going to be a backing back, but it's a bad. Sorry. But the thing about Camilla is her speed and her agility, her agility and her speed and her ability to sprint the court as big as she is is something that we haven't seen. Right? Like her, if she can add the footwork of BG in the post and combine that with her speed and agility and and her ability to run the floor with guards, I mean, we're talking, yeah, she's going to be the offensive hub. And then again, you combine that with angels goals of expanding her game and growing into a stretch four. That's a dangerous combination. But that's not what we're seeing right now because those skill sets are still developing. And so that is where when you talk about

the youth of this team, it's factoring into, again, this losing streak and where they're at in things and why the question of maybe making the playoffs is not the best move for them going forward because what's the rush right now to make it? But I think that's something that, you know, the goal is that's where the game for them will go. Time will tell if it actually does. But again, that's, I think, the direction, the sky are hoping they head in when you think about these two bigs, these two skyscrapers, as the fans have dubbed them. Because, again, when you've got two bigs like them, both operating in the post, it's not a recipe for success in the way the game's being played now. It's just not. but when you think about the way that Angel again wants to expand her game,

you can see that it could be successful if they're able to bring that to fruition. Well, there's a lot of moving parts there. Angel mentioned in her podcast too. She's been the only person who's been in the starting lineup all season long. That kind of just tells you how much change there's been, how much things are shifting. a lot of fascinating pieces, a lot of fascinating people. One of the teams that I'm just the most curious about in the W,

so thanks Annie so much for, you know, just walking us through it all. Really enjoy talking to you. Before we let you go, is there anything you want to plug? No, I just want to say thank you to all of our loyal readers. You know, this covering this league is important to me. We've been doing it at the Sun times.

full time since 2019 and before that, myself and my colleague, former colleague, Maddie Kenny, were doing it even before that. So I just am very grateful that I work for a paper that, you know, has prioritized covering the W in this way and not as a charity, but as a sport, because that's what it is. The WMBA is a sport. These players are professional athletes. These coaches our professionals, and we can and we will continue to cover them the same as we cover every single other sport in Chicago. That's the way it should be. So I'm grateful that I work for a paper who prioritizes that. Love that. You can read Annie at the Sun Times, follow her at Annie Costable on Twitter. Thanks so much. And stick around with us. We're going to take a little break,

and then we'll be back to talk more hoops. All right, we're back. And we've got a lot lot of playoff stuff to get through. We got a lot of aces to talk and there's nobody that I would be more excited to talk about with all of this. And Nikias Duncan, one of the best thinkers in basketball, women's men's, just generally. I imagine he's a rec league king. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be shocked. Nikias, what is your, do you have a player comp? Oh, Lord. Not at this stage. I really, I need to get back into Hooping consistently, honestly. very much a fill the gaps, do a little bit of everything person when I was playing consistently. So insert forward here that can be a connector.

But man, right now my player comp is cash considerations. Gonna be humble on you. You were the glue guy, basically. There we go. Got it. And now you're the injury exception, basically. Correct. Okay.

Got it. Got it. Did something happen? Or is it just a general wear and tear of being alive? Yeah, more of the latter. It's like I'm in the house more doing the watching and the writing and stuff. And it's like, well, I technically work from homes. I can just chill.

That chilling could be dangerous. It can be. Yeah. No, I feel that, you know, you go a couple of days realizing, like you, I look at my steps sometimes on my iPhone and I'm just like, oof, I like, you couldn't waterboard that information out of me. I'm not going to tell you guys what it was, but it's not great. Hey, I'm with you.

I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah. So, Nikai, you were actually. in Las Vegas, I think it was about a week ago, and you got to take an up-close look at the Las Vegas Aces, which are kind of one of the more fascinating teams in the W right now, obviously back-to-back champs trying to go for the gauntlet that is a three-peat,

which I've actually never personally witnessed in my life, so I've been really interested in just how you go about it. And so much of it for the Aces just seems to come down to how much they can continue to put on the shoulders of Asia Wilson, who you know, it feels like is just, you know, on a wrecking course to her third MVP.

And it's just kind of it's really interesting to me when an athlete like Asia ends up in a situation where she is forced to carry more than she is used to because it really puts it really puts her in a situation where she's forced

to expand and, you know, she's somebody has definitely gotten better through the course of her career but also a lot of times great athletes, the height of their abilities, they don't always get those opportunities because they're on teams that are so dominant at the same time. Now, I'm sure she would love to be in the latter situation, but what all of this burden has created is essentially just one of the most incredible runs that we've seen in the regular season.

Over the last five games, she's averaging 31.8 points, 14.2 rebounds. And I think like the most impressive part to me is like the true shooting percentage is the efficiency of all of it. 61% true shooting percentage. Her usage rate is sky high. This, you know, it doesn't feel sustainable, but it's also very fun to watch. What have you taken away from the Aces lately in Asia? I think with Asia, it is a continuation of the expansion that we've seen throughout the Becky Hammond error. She got there.

Becky's told a story a few times. She's just shooting around in the office. He's like, hey, wait a minute, you can really shoot. How about you start experimenting with threes? As the Bill Lambeer era Aces famously did not do a lot of that. Always in 11th or 12th and three-point rate and stuff. So watching it go from Asia taking some threes now to Asia can now come off of screens. Stasher in the corner, come off a pin down.

Now you're going to tag and get to the face-up game. To, hey, Asia, if you grab a rebound and you can now push the ball down floor and initiate the offense or go coast to coast. And to your point about the Aces not being as dominant. as they were last year. It has forced her, I think, and forced the aces to kind of accelerate the expansion that was already happening with her offensive game. And so now you get a situation to where Chelsea Gray misses the first chunk of the season.

So does Jackie Young, who has also experienced a lot of growth for her last two years. She's now, not necessarily pitch a hole, but she's now forced to be more of a primary decision maker. Kelsey Plum has relied on to do more offensively. And now Asia is being moved all around the court and had already been doing that, But now it's a higher volume because Jackie has it shot as well, as we are custom to. Kelsey has a shot as well as you're custom to. You need the volume from Asia.

She's always been someone that can just ramp it up. Like even last year, you had all W seasons from Jackie and Kelsey and things like that. But you get the random night in Atlanta where she ties the scoring record in WMIA history in a single game. So like she's always had that capability. This year has just been an extended stretch of, hey, we kind of need you to do all of this. And she just keeps doing it. she just keeps stacking it. And she's just blasted defenses, one mid-raged jumper, one post-up, one drive, one three-pointer at a time.

It's been incredible to watch. And then you kind of zoom out team-wise, it's like, well, this is kind of concerning. You don't want her having to extend this kind of energy during the regular season, especially once you factor in the Olympic break on top of this, where she had to be the best player on that Olympic team as well. As you got into the medal rounds. So it's been a lot, but it is encouraging that. you're starting to see Jackie look more like herself. You're definitely starting to see Chelsea Gray look more like herself over the last

reason game. So that balance, I feel like is on the way back. But it has been an interesting year for the Aces. Absolutely. And I think like the other thing too is that it's also on the defensive end. Like when you talk about the guard play, it's also forced Asia to have to step up a little bit more.

She's had to make up for a lot more defensively, it feels like. And I think the thing that I don't know, it's just fine. I love Asia post-game press conference. is like she's just kind of the best like she has just like really lovely mix of seriousness and lightness to her that I feel like actually the whole team has like you think about Sid Coulson getting on the stage a couple days ago and basically being like if we keep losing games we're going to be in last place like they are kind of like the most like unserious but very serious team you have to be serious to win as much as they do but I do imagine that lightness

that they can bring in that Asia can bring in um it probably helped you you when you're trying to chase a three p like these things they can start to feel bogged down and it was feeling like that a couple of games ago i think when you were um actually on the ground there and it feels like they have started to find their their stride uh they are picking it up defensively uh but the thing that stuck out to me about asia man was just like somebody asked her a couple days ago if she felt overwhelmed um and she was basically just like no uh she said she was really grateful for the mental toughness and the fact that she hasn't folded but basically that she's good.

She doesn't feel overwhelmed. And the other thing that was terrifying was just saying that she doesn't feel like she's actually had her like, you know, like the, I think she said things getting blurry, having her out of body experience yet. Yeah. I think I heard you in that press conference, so I don't necessarily have to recount it all to you. But it is kind of terrifying to hear somebody playing on that level talk like that right now. but yeah, I don't know. It's just, what do you, what do you kind of make of her style of leadership, I guess?

I've just something I've always been fascinated by. I think she's one of the great leaders in sports, especially like the more and more that I get to kind of watch how she operates and just like this mix of being dominant, but also willing to be vulnerable at the same time. I'm just kind of curious as somebody who's really spent a lot of time around her, what has kind of been like for you to witness that? And I think I've tweeted something similar to this before.

Like, it's easy to dip into the cliche. This person is a great player, but they're an even better person. But like with Asia, it genuinely feels like she's one of the best people that I've been around, which makes it easy for me to appreciate everything else that she's doing because the basketball kind of speaks for itself. Or at the very least, it should speak for itself at this point. We won't go down that road. But in terms of her style of leadership, it's rare that, as you see, said she's able to mix in the, you know, the accountability, the, hey, we're not at the level

that we need to be or I'm not at the level that I need to be. And also just joke and shrug things off when necessary. Like coming off of, I want to say that second links lost. And she's as I've ever seen her, which that first links game, they lost and the defense just got shredded. And even Becky had said post game, yeah, the guards got hit, but some of my big dogs didn't come to play either. And I feel like that was alluding to some of the the mishaps with Asian screen coverage and stuff like that. And they lost a second game, but the defense was much better. And Asia just kind of took that time to say like, hey, this feels like a, she didn't literally

say it feels like improved. But that was kind of the vibe that you get. Like, okay, it's things that we lost. We don't want to lose. But I know that this is a journey. And I need to make sure, one, we are getting to where we need to get to. I can't be down because if I'm down, because if I'm down, the loss is to pile up and stuff like that.

We haven't been ourselves post all stuff. I can't really afford to be down even if I want to. And so I do appreciate, like, she has. has a really good sense of like what to say, but more importantly, how to be and how to react to certain things, there have been wins where she's like, hey, where it feels like a loss, there have been losses where it's like, hey, we did, we did. If we keep this up, you know, the ball's going to bounce our way and that type of thing. She just has a real great feel for her locker room.

I feel like she's really had to exert her stuff more than she ever has. And I think back to, I want to say it was the, one of the Liberty loss earlier this year. I wasn't in that presser live when I was at my sister's wedding but getting to tap into that one late and someone... That's fair. I think that's okay. Yeah, a pretty big deal. But in that

presser, someone asked her about how she feels about trying to remember what the exact wording was. But it was something about her teammates and her leadership of how important that is, stuff like that. And she ends up breaking down and talking about how much she loves her team, how much she loves her teammates,

and I'll step out and take these hits for y'all because ultimately I just want us to win. I love everyone in the locker and stuff like this. It's like, wow. like that vulnerability is super cool. Like the part of me kind of worries is like, hey, this has been a heavy season already. Like three pets aren't easy. It's why we haven't seen one, you know, in basketball since what the, the Kobe Shack Lakers.

And we haven't seen one in the W since the Cheryl Swoops led Houston Commons. And so like on one hand, I'm like, ooh, I don't want this to get to her because she is taking on more, you know, on the basketball court, more on board, more on court usage. She's having to put out a lot more fires defensively, which has led to a little bit of slippage on her end as she's trying to regain that trust in her teammates and stuff like that. But I'm just so impressed by how she's been able to handle all of this and keep an eye on what the noise, or keep an ear to what the noise is while not being consumed by what the noise is.

And just being able to handle that. Like that's not an easy thing to do. I really think she should be commended for that part. Yeah, no, it's not. And I think, like, you know, it's interesting. Like you say you worry and I get where you're coming from. But there's also a part of me that's just like, it's almost like you worried more. You'd worry more if she didn't like break down every once in a while.

You know what I mean? Like I think that's a part of it. That's so cool. Like she's very much somebody who's like, I can't get down. But at the same time, she does get down and something that she's talked about historically a lot. Just, you know, dealing with depression after winning the MVP. I love just reading her book. I thought it was just really cool to read about somebody who, you know,

you kind of like athletes portray this level of invincibility. And I think historically it felt like they almost have to. And, you know, I'm admittedly, I'm pretty, I'm relatively new to the W and to really being locked in on women's sports. And one of the biggest differences that I think is so healthy, but also informative to what it takes to lead, is just the fact that she's, and it's not just her,

but she's somebody who is not really going down that path of acting like she's impenetrable. Like, if anything, it's the exact opposite. And I imagine that also just has to have a really, I guess, like, additive, high communication effect on the locker room too. Like, when your best player, I know it's kind of a cliche, but when your best player is somebody who is just like really willing to be honest with themselves about how they're feeling about themselves, the anxiety between like where they are and where they want to be when you know their goals are or what they are. You know, it just, it probably just gives everybody else free rain.

I know just even watching her, like, it gives somebody like me a little bit, like, yo, relax. It's all, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. You feel that energy, which is, you know, one of the many reasons I enjoy getting to talk to her pregame, post game, stuff like that.

Like, she levels with you. She's open and honest. Naturally, when anyone, you have to build that trust to be able to get, like, the full breath of that. But it stands out. Like, you don't. feel fake with Asia. Yeah. Even when you have like again,

going back to some of the losses and she's more upbeat than you would expect. Like you also feel like no, she actually believes this. Right. Yeah. I think it's really important to be able to establish that trust. Yeah. Both, you know, with her too. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. Um, do you like, you know, she, she made a joke a little while ago, you know, I'm trying to boot Candace Parker out of

these record books. Um, And, you know, in reality, she's on the cusp of doing something that Candace never did, winning her third MVP. In that same press conference where she referenced that she cried, she kind of, she talked about how she doesn't do any of this for any of us. Like, it really is for the people in that locker room and that's why it is so emotional for her. Like, that's what she's connected to. She just, you know, seems like she's somebody who's really invested in what it means to be part of a team and what it means to be, like, responsible as a leader of that. But I'm curious, like, does she strike you with somebody who does care about her individual legacy? Is that something – it's probably not something that's front of mind.

But, you know, it does – even with somebody like Asia does seem like something that buzzes in the back of the mind of almost every professional athlete. Yeah, that was going to be my answer. I don't think it's – I don't think that's number one on the list for her. I really do think she wants to – she wants to be the best version of herself. She wants to serve her teammates, her locker room, her organization. And from there, because she's so freaking good and because she has to work that she has, naturally she just puts her stealth in these kind of conversations with your Candace Parker's and other legends like that.

And so I don't think she's striving to, like this year, I don't think she was striving to set the single season scoring record. I think as of recording, she is, what, 30 points away from being the first player in W history to lock 1,000 points in a season. I don't think she entered the year saying I want to do that. It's more ahead. hey, if I get the ball, I need to produce. I want to make life easier for my teammates.

I get these doubles and I can flow into the passing and we can really dice teams up. But I don't think it's let me beat Diana Tarasi in scoring. I don't think it's let's get this MVP so I can put myself above Candace Parker. There's always an element of I want to be the best. So naturally, these are the players that I'm aiming, or these are the players that are in this conversation. These are kind of the benchmarks for me,

but I don't think that's front of mind for her. Yeah, yeah, that tracks. And, you know, it's interesting. Like, she probably would rather not be in, like, the single season scoring conversation if it meant that, you know, she was taking on less of a burden and her team was playing a little bit better. But I'm curious, as the playoffs roll around, right now, the aces and the storm are slated to play against each other.

They are kind of having a bit of a battle for home court that is going to be, you know, defined by the next six or seven games of the season. I'm curious where you're at, like temperature check-wise, they are four-in-one since that slide about their long-term playoff hopes. For Vegas. Vegas, yeah. I think it is encouraging that the defense is starting to look more like itself. And it's interesting that it is coming during this time where they are experimenting with

lineups. They have been toggling between their fifth starter for the last few games at this point. And then you also sprinkle in Jackie Young getting the rest day. Kelsey Plum in the Mercury game, I want to say, tweet the ankle. They were conservative with that held her out in this most recent game. But zooming out, the fact that the defense is starting to look more like itself is super encouraging. The Atlanta game was a pretty solid one. I didn't love it live because it felt like a lot of bot switches and stuff like that in Atlanta missed shots. Watch it the second time. It's like, okay, actually, this isn't as bad as I thought it was. The Mercury game, day just,

it was like, it was 29, 10 in the first quarter. I was like, okay, I think this is kind of what you want this to be if you're the loss of things. So the fact that the defense is starting to look more like itself, again,

Chelsea Gray, looking more comfortable on both ends of the floor, that's something I wanted to ask her about last game. It felt like her best defensive showing of the season so far. And I think naturally you miss Chelsea Gray in the early part of the year. You miss the playmaking, the IQ and the passes and the shot making. I don't think enough is made of how important she is to the ACE's defense.

as a communicator, as someone that can defend up and kind of unlock some of those small ball lineups because she can defend bigger players and communicate switches and scram switches and stuff like that. So the fact that she is now holding up better and teams have tried to go after her these last few games, but the fact that she's holding up better on her own, when she's tasked with helping someone else,

she's flying in for these strips and these tie-ups, and then you add on the shot making coming back, the burst coming back. The passing is always going to be there, and she is one of the best passes I've ever seen. And so the fact that those things are coming together on top of Asia and these white t-shirts pregame just coming in is dropping 31 and 13. I think the Aces are putting themselves in position to make another run. Like it feels like they're not, they're certainly not where they were last year.

And that's something that I've had to kind of balance out. We're looking at some of their process stuff. The expectation can't be be as good as last season because they were quite literally like one of the most prolific teams in WMBA history. highest offensive rating in W history. They led the W in defensive rating on top of that and actually led net rating. It's not going to be that. But there is a gap between that and still

like best team in the league. They haven't hit that bar consistently. But it feels like they're starting to trend that way. And that's starting with the defense, being able to play out of transition. You're getting easier looks for Asia. Chelsea looking more like herself. You get Jackie back,

hopefully finding some of her flow. You get Kelsey back in the mix. and as they figure out how they want to start, if they want to go bigger with Megan Guffington or Kia Stokes, if they want to start smaller with Alicia Clark, as they start to gain that chemistry or they close that out, like I think they're going to be in position to make another run again. Yeah, no, and it's a great point about the lineup changes too.

That is one of the things that was a little bit, you know, you just, it is concerning when you're at this point of the season. And I know they've had their health issues and stuff too, but, you know, even when they are healthy, they do seem to be just going back and forth with like, who they're going to start to your point. And yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it, like a sort of recalibration of what your expectations are of them and that it's not going to be perfection like it was last

season. But at the same time, man, like, you look at everybody else, they've leveled up too. So I think it's kind of hard to be confident, as confident as you were in the Aces last year, even if they were the same team exactly, they're not. but you know, you look at the rest of the league and everybody's really leveled up. Like, you know, the Liberty after going 2 and O against Seattle last week, it feels like they've created a cushion for the number one seed. The Minnesota Lynx have been awesome.

Like, they've been one of my favorite teams to watch all season. And I think, like, those two back-to-back games were kind of instructive and concerning for me, at least, but also very encouraging from the Link's perspective. but it just felt like the lynx just had way too much movement and speed for the Aces guards. And it's just like that if they meet up again in the postseason, that's just something that I just don't know if they're going to be able to deal with. But, you know, I guess the larger point there is more that I don't know if there's anybody who can deal with the links and what they're doing right now. They've just been blistering out of the break. They have the best offense in the league by a mile.

and Nefisa Collier has been awesome and I just love how they play like they have this interchangeability that's just made them downright unguardable you know like they're just one of the more fun teams to watch and just what they kind of, even like what they kind of

did to Asia I can't remember which game it was was now I think it was the second game but they're basically like you know they're not only are they tripling her but they're making the catch so hard you know for like for somebody who is also like she's improved her playmaking quite a bit, and that's probably the next step in her evolution. But,

you know, for a team that suppresses assists and suppresses passing as much as they do, it felt like they just sort of took the tack of, all right, let's make, let's make Asia find a way to get out of this riddle that we're going to create for her. And we have all this size, and we have, you know, a defensive player of the year candidate Nefisa Collier, who's going to spend a lot of time on her. And we have a lot of length. And we also, you know, we bolstered our front court as well at the trade deadline. And it feels like that was also a move to, you know, stay out of foul trouble and to say, okay, like if we do face, you know, not just, not just Asia, but, you know, if you do face like the Liberty back court or the Liberty Front Court, for example, in the postseason,

we want to be prepared for it. What do you kind of, what do you make of where the links are? Are they, have they gotten to the point now where would you consider them favorites over the aces? Where are the liberty in that discussion for you? I'm just kind of, I'm curious where your head's at, like, as far as the finals go. I would say, I think it's fair to favor Minnesota over the aces based on just what we've seen this year. I don't know if I would get there quite yet in a playoff setting as they. ACE is round and the form and as they get healthier, there is just a level of championship pedigree there.

Like, I do think Asia would be the best player on the floor in that series. Though, again, those bat-to-bat matchups that I was there, at least for the Vegas portion, the fee was incredible. And so I don't want to, you know, denigrate her in any way. But I think it's fair to think that highly up the means.

As you mentioned, like, the defense has been elite all year long, where I think they're a third defensive rating now, but like they've basically been one and three all year long. the offense has been high power. I think the one thing that kind of keeps me from just full-blown pressing the links button, just looking at what they do, they haven't been a good rebounding team at all this year. And I do think as they have matched up with teams like the Liberty,

who they've beaten Liberty, Liberty, Liberty of beating them, they can get God on the offensive class. They have not beat. I think the only team they have not beaten so far this year is the Connecticut Sun, who are one of the best defenses in the league, also they've been around top three, top four and offensive rebound rate all year long. And so like there are things that you can poke at

with the links. I think they've answered a lot of questions that I had. Like entering the year, I was much higher on their office than their defense. And one of my preseason questions was, will the defense be good enough for this offense to matter? And it's basically been flipped where the defense has been better

than the offense for most of the year. I worry about what is it going to look like against switching as the season went on. Hey, if the three point shooting dips at all, was that going to look like? And they are continuing to answer these questions with their movement and just the overall versatility that they provide. So I would say I think it'd be more pick-em in an AIS series for me right now. I think it's more than fair to say they should be favorite based on what they've showcased.

And I guess zooming out beyond that specific matchup, I do think the Liberty have been the best team of the league this year. And just kind of looking at their roster and things they provide in terms of the collective size and length. the shot making, things like that. Like I do think the links, I mean, the Liberty have the best roster in the W right now. So I would say the Liberty should probably be your favorites if you're just zooming out, especially since the Aces just haven't hit their level consistently so far this year. Yeah. I don't know if I'm ready to just fully say, hey, they're just not going to do it this year.

But I would say Liberty links would probably be by top two right now. All right. Nikaius Duncan, awesome to have you on. Thank you so much for sparing some time. You are the co-host of the Dunker SpotPod with Steve Jones. You guys do great stuff on the WNBA and the NBA. Honestly, I'm sure that everyone who's listening to this already knows who you are. So, you know, I don't know that you need too much of an introduction.

But you're awesome. It was really nice to talk to you. Is there anything that you want to plug before you get? out of here. Well, first, thank you for the kind words. Second, in terms of plugging things, subscribe to the Dunker Spot podcast, as you mentioned, it's an exit of nose lens,

but on the NBA and the WMBA side. So no true offseason for us as we had the NBA into the W into the Olympics, back into W now at NBA season. What a month and some change away. So we're going to be getting into season previews relatively soon. We've got to plot that out.

But that's going to be the big thing. Can I get one more comment in on Las Vegas AISA? Absolutely, yeah. I just want to say quickly because I brain just did a thing as we were talking about some of the players that stepped up recently. Tiffany Hayes making a real push for six player of the year. It feels like she has not missed a three in three weeks at this point. The drive's been important. And as the Aces have been trying to shuffle in different starting lineups and stuff like that, especially with Jackie missing some time, Kelsey missing some time.

She's coming as a spot starter as well. And she's just bombing away right now. And so I did want to highlight how important she's been. Becky Hammond recently spoke about how important Tiffany Hayes has been. She flat out said, I don't know where this team would be without Tiffany A's. And so I didn't want to get out of here before mentioning how well she's played. But other than that, subscribe to the Dunker Spot. Follow me on Twitter at Nikai's NBA.

I think that's all I got right now. Thanks for tuning into the first episode of the Ringer WNBA show. I hope you guys had a lot of fun. I know I did. If you ever have any feedback, anything you'd like us to, cover definitely hit me up i'm at cyr and so he on twitter and instagram um and we will talk to you next friday