The Ringer NBA Show - Cam Reddish and the Explosive Memphis Grizzlies

Episode Date: January 18, 2022

J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks are back to talk about the new and exciting prospects of the NBA. They begin with the promising Cam Reddish of the New York Knicks and how to best utilize his talents (01:47). Then they dive deep on the explosive run the young Memphis Grizzlies have had with Ja Morant at the helm (14:40). Hosts: J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Football is back and so is the Ringer NFL show. Coming at you five days a week with wall-to-wall coverage from recapping the Sunday games, giving a player perspective, deep dives, and previewing the coming slate. Check out the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Folks, I can confirm to you that basketball indeed is very good and it's a chilly but a pleasant day to talk about it. My name is Jay Kyle Mann and welcome to Upside High, the show where we zoom in on the youth movement in the NBA and the NBA draft. all the things that come before that. And I'm joined, per usual, by my co-host,

the Lothario of the Lone State, Mr. Jonathan Charks. Charks, how are you doing, buddy? I like that. Kyle, you've always got good vocab, so I appreciate it. Basketball is really good. I'm still recovering from my cowboys losing in the playoffs. So hate football. I'm not like an NFL person.

I kind of like observed Ural's misery from afar, which was pretty amusing for me. I mean, like, just like the ubiquitous. of it across social media was just, are you like a lifetime, were you like one of those like Emmett Smith, Troy Aikman, did you cut your teeth on those Cowboys teams?

Do you go that far back? For sure. I mean, I'm from Dallas, so I'll always support the Cowboys, but I absolutely hate the team. And it's just a weird thing. They make you miserable, huh?

For sure. You're obviously like a diehard longhorns guy too. So that's your, but basketball is your first love, right? Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. Well, today we're going to be talking about a team and a player, a couple players that got swapped.

So the first thing that we're going to hit on is Cam Reddish, and then we're going to talk more about the Grizzlies and their stars and things like that. But I want to talk about this Reddish trade. I feel like it raised eyebrows more than this type of trade really, I don't know, I guess anytime like a high lottery picks get swapped for each other. At first, I kind of observed the reaction of Nix fans was, initially was elation. Was that kind of what, what was your observation of the way

this trade went down just off the, who did you think won just at a glance from a start? I don't think like the winning framework is the right way

to look at a trade like this, which we can get into. I just think that sometimes is kind of limiting, right? I think ultimately Reddish was not going to work in Atlanta so they had to trade him. And whether or not

he works somewhere else is almost imminent. material to them. So I don't think they could necessarily win the trade, but they couldn't win having him around either. I think it's probably, first off, like, let's talk about Cam Reddish a bit and why he's probably a bigger deal in a lot of basketball circles than maybe his NBA production might initially suggest. Well, he has been, first of all, I would want to say, too, that, like, I mean, the Knicks, I think the Knicks initially felt like they got a, like it was a big time coup for them, I think, because they felt like they got rid of a guy that wasn't playing for a guy

that is playing. But like Reddish, I think this ties into what you're talking about here is that Reddish for a long time. And we discussed some of this in like the ringer slack and we were, and there was talk up, there's always talk about Cam Reddish on Twitter, all over the place. He has this, this like something, something about his game, about the way he looks, about the way he's built, about his gait that really allures people into his upside as a player. And yet, you know,

and going into that college season, the 2018-19th season with Zion and R.J. Barrett, or was that 17-18? I think it was 18-19 now. But there was some thought that he was going to be like a top three pick that he was going to be like a really truly kind of special player. And some of his warts came out

during that college season. some of the, where did he actually end up going? I don't have that in front of me. He wasn't three, was he? Yeah, okay. So they're both two players picked at 10 swap for each other. What do you think that it is about him that is so alluring? Because it's definitely there.

What is it about Cam Redish that it's going to give people, keep them like taking chances on him? I love how you're acting like it's so mysterious, like his feminine allure. It's really simple. He's freaking huge. He's 6'8, 220. So right there, that's one of the bigger wings in the league. He moves really, really well for a guy his size. I think that's more what it is.

Less so the size. I think it's the second thing you said. Well, it's a combination of size and speed. And then he's got a good-looking jump shot. And then he was the exact same size at 18. And as usual, you did not really give the background, so I'll give it for the people. So the background is Cam Reddish was seen as a top player

in his high school class for a long time. because he was so big, he was such a good shooter, and he was so fluid. Everyone said, this guy's a future star. Everyone knew who he was at like 15 years old. And what happened was he commits to Duke first, and he's thinking, I'm going to be the next Jason Tatum, Jabari Parker, Brandon Ingram, big star Duke wing comes a top two pick. And then RJ Barrett and then Zion commit to Duke as well. And when that happens, it pushes Cam all the way down the peck.

order number three. And so then Duke in that one year of Duke, Cam's playing off RJ and Zion, not really doing very much, very inconsistent, but then he has his flashes. It's like, man, he's so big, that jump shot looks so good. What happens when he puts it all together? Maybe in the NBA, he'll be the same, he'll get a bigger role. And then he'll really show his star potential everyone's always thought he's had. And then he gets to the NBA and basically the same thing happens again where he's playing off Trey Young. He's behind DeAndre Hunter, who the Hawks drafted in the same draft at number four. And he's never really getting that lead role. And he's always kind of tantalizing. And that's kind of where he still is like four years later is people see the

talent and they're waiting for the production to come around. Yeah, it's interesting to go and read if you read like talent evaluators from the time, you read. I think people were just seeing this upside of like you said big wing fluid they expect him to kind of put it together i kind of feel like he's maybe playing in the wrong era a little bit for like his body type like he's he strikes me as somebody that if he had played like in the 2000s like in the early 2000s he probably would have it would have been fine in a time when basketball was a little bit different but it's interesting that he and we talked about kevin knox being traded for him honestly it's funny that like zaire kevin knox and reddish all three are like these big wings zayers less skill

and Reddish, but it's interesting that they all kind of similar challenges. They're very skinny, they're very tall, but like the creating for themselves off the bounce, like, and then expanding to anything beyond scoring for themselves has been like a challenge. Reddish, though, I think that it's, we had some work done for us, like, on the ringer about, like, who, what really are the Knicks getting in this situation? To me, I think that they're getting a more aggressive and more, like hyper-confident version of what Kevin Knox was hypothetically. You know, like he's, he really is going to jump in there. And I know that, like, Knox has struggled with, like, confidence issues forever.

I don't know whether or not he's going to be able to, like, flesh out with Atlanta or if they're even planning on keeping him, they may, they may not be. Do you expect the Knicks to get anything serious? Do you expect him to address their concerns at all in the short term or the, or the relatively short term? I would say to double back, I wouldn't frame it as they're trading Reddish for Knox. They're trading Reddish for a future draft pick. And Knox is the best salary balancer.

I don't necessarily think they're really looking at Knox as a potential piece for them in Atlanta. And I think you're right. They all went, it is interesting, Reddish Knox and Zaire Williams, who the greatest took at number 10 in this year's draft, all went at number 10, or I think Knox is number nine, actually. But the reason that's going on is because at a certain point in the lottery, all the surefire picks are gone. And in the same spot in all three drafts, the teams are like, you know what, this is a very tall athletic wing with a good jump shot. F it, let's just take them now. At some point, the talent, let's just gamble on the talent and see what happens.

And that's what all three teams have done. It'll be really interesting to see what happens with Cam in New York. Because my big thing with Cam is, so the story is that Cam went in, Travis Schlank, the Hawks' GM, talked about this to the media after the trade. He said, before the start of this season, Reddish said, I'd like a bigger role. And if I can't get one here, I would like to be traded. And then Schenck said, okay. And he immediately began trying to see, can I get a first round pick back for Reddish? And this gets back into what I was saying about,

I don't think the Hawks could win this trade because what happened was the Hawks have drafted this very talented young player who has a very high opinion of himself and who wants a bigger role. The problem is he's not earned one. And I think that is the Cam Reddish problem right now. Because if you're going to ask for a bigger role,

you have to succeed in the role you're in now. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense. And his three years in Atlanta, Cam has never been a positive player. They've always been better with him off the floor than on the floor. And he has never been an efficient player. Where do you think he's hurting them, though? Where do you think that the inefficiencies are coming from?

Because I think that's the crux of the issue here. What's going on is he's taking a lot of shots and not making them, and he's gambling on defense constantly. It's pretty basic stuff. And it's funny, right? You were saying in this era, maybe, but ultimately, like, the problem with Cam Reddish is, like, it's so simple, it's almost stupid. Like he takes a lot of shots and doesn't make them very efficient, doesn't make a lot of them.

And he gambles on defense constantly and doesn't justify his gambles. So then he goes into the Hawks' GM's office and says, I want a bigger role. And Schlenk is like, well, why? I'm going to take away shots from Bogdanovich or Trey Young or Kevin Herder. These are proven players who are better than you now. And I'm going to give them a smaller role so you can, because you think you're a top player, We'll prove it on the court. And I think where I look at it with Cam,

I would say the reverse, we're talking about these guys in the late lottery. What Cam should be thinking of is Miles Bridges. And Miles Bridges, he's a guy who was drafted number 12 year before Cam. Now he's in his fourth year. He might be an all-star this year. And you look at his progression,

he always succeeded in a smaller role. So the Hornets kept giving him a bigger and bigger role every year. They said, you are succeeding. We do believe in you. we're going to expand your role. Whereas Cam, it's more, we know you have talent, so we'll give you a chance to play, but you're not really justifying getting a bigger role,

even though you want one. It's an interesting thing. And some of this is kind of like reading into who these people are just as people. Like what is ultimately, would it even have been the best thing for Schlink to give Reddish that much, give him that opportunity without proving it like you talked about?

So it's like there's maybe a maturation thing going on. and maybe he's on this path. You said something interesting to me over text just about, you know, he's one of those like two or three teams from now type guys, and he's in his early 20s still. Is he, what is he, 21, 22, 22. He's, it might take him a while to realize that.

But I personally have more confidence in players who demonstrate what you were talking about. And that's something that comes up over and over again. I feel like in our draft discussions is when we look at, and I think it ties. into the team that we're getting ready to talk about in the way that they evaluate. I'm really like pointing my notebook like a head coach

right now, but I'm going to roll it up like Joe B. I think I think it might take a little while for Reddish. I don't know that heading to, I don't know that heading to New York. I don't know that he's going to alleviate alleviate like the issues and the concerns that they have in the short

term. I could be totally wrong about that. One thing I will say about Reddish is he's a big game player. We've seen him show up. I kind of have expected him to get traded. during the offseason. I thought somebody might come after the flashes that he showed in Atlanta. But who knows what the intel is out there on him? In the short term, though, maybe he'll give something to New York,

but I'm not confident that it's going to be. What do you make about the thing, too, about there have been whispers about R.J. and Zion and Reddish, sort of the chemistry stuff there. Do you think that the R.J. Reddish reunion is going to, like, blossom into something productive for them for the Knicks? maybe. I think it's a little too easy to say, oh, they were all college teammates. Everyone has this idea, oh, they all played college together, their best friends, and they want to reconnect and da-da-da-da-da. And that happens sometimes, like with John Wall and DeMarcus cousins, right? Because

those guys' games fit together. I think Cam Reddish looked at his time of Duke and says, man, I was really held back. I couldn't show what I did. I don't know if there's necessarily a ton of positive feelings about that. And I think he's about to walk in that same situation in New York. What we are just talking about, it's hard in the NBA to get a big role because every team is full of guys who want, you know, minutes and shots.

So he's going to go to New York. They've already got, they're starting Alec Berks, Evan Fornier, R.J. Barrett, Julius Randall. Those are all kind of high usage players. Off the bench, you've got a manual quickly, high usage player. You've got Kemba Walker floating around

trying to get back, establish himself in the league. a high usage player. And really, Reddish is going to have to compete with Quentin Grimes just for minutes in that three and D role. I think it's going to be the same thing. It's kind of like... We're circling to the same problems that he had in Atlanta.

You're going to have to prove it through a small role efficiency. Exactly. Before we move on to talk about the Memphis Grizzlies, one of the most exciting and promising young teams in the NBA, we are going to take a break. All right. So the Memphis Grizzlies are on a tear right now. They have been on a tear for the past little bit. They are 19 and 5 since December 1st.

I went through, you know, we're not totally sure who the playoff teams are, but 15 of those are against, you know, perceived playoff teams. Third in the West behind Golden State and Phoenix. What in the world is clicking for Memphis right now? I mean, everything, right? They're probably the biggest story in the NBA, I would think. And we figured we are a young player's podcast. pretty much all their success is powered by young players.

So let's talk about it. One swoop, their whole team, they're relevant to us, yeah. We'll be the 50th podcast to talk about the Grizzlies. Hopefully we can put our own unique spin on it. But, yeah, they've been dominant. It's been interesting because they've had jaw in one. Then jaw went out for a while. They still kept winning.

They're just winning almost regards of who's out there. It's pretty incredible. What did you think about the conversations that I know we briefly touched on it? I know how I feel about this. but like what did what did you think about the jaw morant they played better with job without jaw for that brief time what did you make of that conversation i think the important point to make is sometimes when a team elevates like this we want to give all the success credit one player because we're such a star driven league so it's easy to look at because i've always said the most relevant stats it always

comes back to points per game and wins and losses so when you score a lot of points on a team that wins a lot of games, you get all the credit for it. And I don't necessarily think it means all that much that they won without JAA. So they were 10 and 2 without them. What it tells you is it's not just Jaws. This is a team-wide rise. And I think if you're a Memphis fan, that's the most encouraging part, is that it isn't just one player. It's three and four and five young players all rolling together at the same time. That's a nice segue to something that's interesting about this Memphis group. Now, we can go down the like itemized player by player development discussions, and I want to do that quickly. But something about their culture that you and I talked about that was

interesting and relevant, kind of jutting off of the of the Cam Reddish thing that's relevant is how they go about, you know, Memphis is a team that over the past few years has had some picks. They've used the picks pretty, pretty phenomenally. I think we can agree on that. And what do what was it you, you texted me the other day about how they choose? their personnel. What do you think just from afar? I don't have any, we're speculating about this. I don't know anything specific. What is it

about they pick players do you think that's showing up in the product this soon? That's already working this soon. Is there anything that jumps out to you? I think when you look at the players they draft and I really do think sometimes we make things more complicated

than they actually are. And what Memphis does really well is there's just, you know, there's obviously this very long conversation that goes back to like, I don't know, 20 years now. I test for stats, analytics for scouts, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What Memphis does is they say, if you are a really good player, you should leave some kind of statistical impact on the game at the college level. It might not be the statistics that necessarily points, rebounds, steals, assists, but there should be some inkling on the court that you're impacting the game.

And they're not just going to draft a guy based on his stats, but they're going to use stats to help themselves find players. So not to get too far down into a rabbit hole, but you look at guys like Brandon Clark, the Anthony Melton, Desmond Bain. These were all late first round picks, early second round picks. They were all advanced stats darlings in college. And what they all had in common was they lacked the ideal physical dimensions that teams look for. Brandon Clark is 6'8, really more of a center. The Anthony Melton's 6'2, more of a shooting guard. These don't necessarily fit your prototypical dimensions.

Desmond Bain. Six foot four, very short arms. So those guys lack the statistical things teams look for. What Memphis says, not statistical, they like the physical traits. Memphis said, hey, yes, they might lack certain things, but they also have certain advantages that they have on the court. Clark, phenomenal athlete. Desmond Bain, phenomenal shooter.

The Anthony Melton, really, really smart player. And that allows them to have an impact on the game more than their physical tools might suggest. So we're just going to grab them. And I think what makes Memphis so interesting is you go up and down their roster. They have like 13 good players, 14 good players. It's that depth. When guys go out, they just keep rolling. And then there's guys

like John Conchar. He was an advanced stats darling. He's a 6'5 post player from where U.E Fort Wayne or something. Purdue, Fort Wayne. Four year player from Purdue, Fort Wayne. And he basically, if there was a guy who had crazy advanced stats numbers in college, but NBA scouts did like wrote him off, he probably wound up in Memphis. Yeah, I think, I think that's very true. Now, they do have a couple freaks. I mean, Darren Jackson, Jr. was, I mean, yeah, 6-11 with a 7-foot-6 wingspan, 10-inch hands, 10-by-10-inch hands. I mean, he's just a physical freak. I want to talk more about him. But I think something else that I've noticed, too, is that there is a sort of commonality between these players and their ability to create disruption defensively. Now, they're all, like, smart. I do think

that they have a collection of, like, pretty smart players, in my opinion. But they have a lot of guys who can create disruption in the form of live ball turnovers. And we can see that because they're number two in the league in deflections first and fast break points. And the other thing, too, is that a lot of these players stylistically, I've noticed that Memphis really embraces the middle game. They not just pull-up jumpers, but they embrace the floater game. No team is shooting as many floaters as they do.

I mean, Brandon Clark is incredible at it. John Moran's incredible at it. They have a lot of guys who like to take that shot, but the defense is key. Hold on, Kyle. I think the floater thing is important because here's why the floater thing is important. Because Memphis lives at the intersection of guys who impact the game efficiently without ideal physical tools. And that intersection exists.

A lot of those guys use floaters because the floater allows you to play bigger than what you are. So I don't think they necessarily target guys who use floaters a lot. But if you use a floater, if you're not someone with ideal physical tools, you should probably have a floater in your game. And that's why Brandon Clark is a good example of the floater and how powerful it can be for an undersized big man. Yeah. And because the mid-range discussion is really kind of muddled with people being really hung up

on the old school mentality. And then there's like this new wave of like, oh, hey, it is useful. I feel like the people who are really paying attention have noticed that, but like Brandon Clark doesn't need to even work on a mid-range pull-up, straight-up jumper. And I've made this point before. It's really hilarious how cyclical it is because literally in the beginning of basketball, that's the way people shot. It was like it doesn't physically make sense to like plan our feet and jump high

and try to shoot a jump shot. Run and like use the energy. Anyway, if you watch the Grizzlies, they end the top 25, like, players taking floaters per 100 possessions. I texted you that. I think it's like they have like four or five guys. Tyos Jones is also really good at shooting that. The defensive thing, though, I think is key here. And this team has just been wrecking people.

I told you that they're the most efficient team in the league. They allow the fewest points per chance in switching ball screens in the league. Why do you think they're able to do that? That's what would be my question for you. Well, I guess I have to talk about their coach really quickly because he is an old high school teammate of mine. Not that coaches have that much to impact, but shut up my back, Taylor Jenkins. Was Jenkins good?

He was a very smart player. He wasn't one of the stars. His job was to set up the stars. Okay, okay. What position did he play with? Is he a big? He was a power forward, yeah. He was a high post power forward.

He would like pass out of the high post, shoot 15 foot jumpers. We ran kind of a motion offense. Oh, okay, okay. Like hitting cutters, things like that? Yeah, yeah. Imagine a really small Stephen Adams. That was kind of Taylor's, right? on that team. Who is really relevant to this team, I think, because they're so athletic.

Something interesting about this team is that I put this down that they are four and 11 this season whenever they shoot over 40% from three. So this is a team that doesn't rely on like, you know, getting hot to beat you. Like they beat you in this like methodical wear you down, create deflections, get shots in the middle. But I want to talk about their key players. We might as well move on to that, I think. So Jaron Jackson Jr., talking about like the switchability defensively. He hasn't shot the ball as well this year. He's been a little bit down in his efficiency on that front. He, what is it about him that makes him such, we talked about the physical tools. That's one thing. There are a lot of guys out there with physical tools. Jaron Jackson is, he's just one of the most, he had some like fouling issues early on in his career. He's gotten a little bit about that, better about that per 36 this year. What is it about Jaron Jackson and how does he impact their, how they play? to your eyes defensively.

Well, I mean, so we were talking about, like you mentioned, like Memphis has gotten a really good job of finding value late in the draft, but ultimately they do have two top four picks in their team. And they have Jha, they have Jaron Jackson. So I guess we're doing Jackson first. I think for him, he had a lost year development last year because he tore his meniscus in the bubble. He didn't come back until, I think, the last month of regular season,

and he clearly wasn't himself. And so this is year four for him, but really it's year three because he just lost a year. And even now, they're trying to expand his role on offense, give him more freedom. I think to go back a little bit,

one thing I think looks really, really smart for them right now is they made a trade over the summer during the draft where they went from 17 to 10 and they flipped centers and they flipped Jonas Valenciunis for Stephen Adams. And at the time, I remember thinking,

okay, Valenciunis, he was a big part of their team last year, a very dominant low post score, added a jump shot. I said, okay, they're trying to stack future picks and flipping for a worst player now because they're thinking long. But I think what was actually happening is they said, no. Balanchunis, he's a high possession, high usage player. And we want to emphasize our younger players, we've got to get him out of here because Jaron Jackson's only going to be so valuable next to a high usage, low post-scoring big man. Because Jonas is going to demand the ball in the

block. And he is going to, Jaron has to play off him. And it's kind of like going back to the whole Cam Reddish thing. You can't just, okay, I'm going to elevate Jaron over Jonas. because Jonas had more skins on the wall than Jaron. So that would have been very tricky. What they had to do was trade Jonas to create a bigger role for Jaron. And so what they really did is it was addition by a subtraction and they got themselves a free top 10 pick for doing it. That's just really smart management.

And I think Adams has been a much better fit for Jaron because Adams doesn't take a lot of shots is a really good passer. So he sets up Jaron a lot as opposed to Jaron playing off Jonas. So all that to say, Jaron's being put in a better position this season. And what made him so interesting in the draft, what makes it interesting now is he's 6'11, he can shoot and move like a guard. And the number that's really crazy is when they play Jaron at the 5 and Brandon Clark at the 4, they're plus 17 in those lineups. Because they're just to kick back into your saying, they're so switchable. They're so fast.

they spread the floor so well. It's just very, very hard to match up with them. It's hard to penalize them, too. Like for some teams, if you put their bigs out, your bigs out there that have one advantage, but maybe they give something else up, like you can't really do that easily with the Grizzlies because they'll put, they'll go out there

and put Jackson or Clark on the player that they know that you want to switch with. Like they'll move their pieces and they can do that fluidly. Like they're not like, okay, Jaron has to guard the five. Jaron has to guard this guy. Like yesterday was a good example. Yesterday the Grizzlies beat a pretty short-handed Bulls team. And I was noticing just that Jackson was switching on to DeRosen multiple times

and like noticeably bothered him throughout the game. Like he can really, really move super well. We talked about like the bigs in the past few years who have had like defensive impact. It's just nice to see this come around because I think Jackson was probably the last defensive guy that kind of like move the needle quite like Evan Mobley did. I feel like he's sort of, he's a little more powerfully built, though. I don't know if he's wingspan-wise. I don't know that he would reach as far with his height as Mobley does.

But something else that I've noticed is he's attacking off the dribble better this year. Like he's getting to the rim, uses his left really well. His drives per 100 have literally doubled since last year. So he's getting to the rim more, finishing more, more blowbys per game. shooting is down though. What do you think? Do you think it matters, though? What do you make of this, like, their identity as a team?

Like, does the shooting thing matter? What are they going to run into as a team? Do you think potentially in the playoffs and the terms of the way this team works? Well, I mean, I think it's very connected. You're talking about his drives are up and his shooting is down because he's taking harder shots. They're trying to grow him as a player. And I look at Jaron. What I notice when he drives is he's very,

rarely driving to pass. Once he decides I'm going to shoot, like he's going to shoot. And like the defenses are smart. They know if you're going to shoot. They can make your life harder. Jaron is still so young. What the next step for him is,

okay, actually, it's easier to score when I look to pass sometimes because the defense will play off you a little more. Whereas right now, he kind of puts his head down and tries to force his own offense. It's like he's trying to get back that year he lost in one setting. I'm like, I got to get myself to like the Andre Aden's level.

I got to get these shots up. And I think Jaron has a ton of talent. He's still scratching the surface. And I think that's where they'll ultimately, that'll be where the playoffs come into, but that becomes very important is, is Jaron ready for this? Because to me, it feels like Jaws already set

and they've got to raise Jaron up. So we should probably talk about Jawsome too. I think that that's a great segue. So, John Morant, he, I had, I've been kind of thinking back about some of the things I thought about Jha coming out of the draft. I really wondered about him. He's been scoring a little more this year. I know Brooks has kind of been in and out of a lot.

They've had lineup weirdness like everybody. John Morant in terms of the all-star discussion, in or out, what do you think? I mean, that's not even a question. Is it? Like, he's obviously in. Sometimes I feel like with Jha, they're trying to, like, muster up negativity and like, Who's ever hated on John Moran? I feel like he's the most beloved player in the league.

Am I wrong on that? I've noticed lately that I told you, I feel like he has been a little chippier lately. Well, maybe you asked me, but I mean, we both had noticed it. He has seemed a little, I've been wondering if maybe he's a Reggie Miller type that needs to have like a Mark Jackson in his ear, making him mad because he's been a big part of what has made them play better

over this stretch here. And this roster is really interesting. because I think that it is built to support someone of hit. Because in the playoffs, I think that it's possible that they could run. You know, like, their back court is pretty small as athletic and efficient at what they do. Like, they could run into some situations where, like, bigger kind of playmaking, scoring, three, fours could, like, bother them. Of course, those players bother everybody. And in the West, you know, this year, like, Kau is out.

PG is out. But the other night, like, Luca gave them a hard time. Why do you think that is? Well, Brooks was out. And so Brooks is, that's why makes Brooks touch an important part of this team. He's a big bodied wing. He kind of has to take that challenge because Bain's undersized. Jaws a smaller guy.

Yeah, and Luke could just absolutely demolish them in the fourth quarter. I guess it was last Friday or something. Yeah, I mean, that'll be the question for them is when the game slows down. Because I feel like, especially with Jha and charge of things, I love when they play fast. That, to me, is what makes them special, is their ability to get out and run. And you have, Jaws, he's probably one of, he's in that conversation now of fastest guys in the league with the ball in their hands. And he's such a good passer for that speed. And I think that's what makes Jod different than a lot of the other young point guards in the league.

Guys like Luka, guys like Trey, Hardin's not a young player, but a lot of times these great passers, they like to control the game, slow it down, and make the play in the house. half court, whereas I feel like Jaws at his best running and gunning. If you go and look at some of the most, like, hyper, high-end athletes for his position, he's more skilled than a lot of those guys. Like, if you think about the John Walls, I think he has more like vision and, like, feel than like a John Wall, a Derek Rose, a... Deer & Fox. Like, the Deer and Foxes.

And I think he's become a little bit better shooter than I expected, too. Like, in the middle of the floor, he, like, holds his space. pretty well for how skinny he is. And his defensive effort, obviously, is a lot higher. I think you're right about the All-Star discussion there. He's honestly just don't really pay a ton of attention to the All-Star thing because it's become so it's like the top players in the league is like a totally different conversation than what's actually going to happen.

But Morant in year three has, we were talking about the way this team was built. Do you think that there are any, I've heard some kind of commonalities between, I said this team reminds me of like kind of the 14-15 warriors. in it's a young, not in terms of like, I don't think that they're going to accomplish what the Warriors did. I don't think so. Maybe they'll prove me wrong.

But they remind me that it's like a team. Maybe you're the hater John needs, Kyle. He needs your negative energy. I'd love to motivate you, Joe. Go ahead. Put that on your billboard, however you get it down to your bulletin board. But in terms of a team that is like a head of schedule,

like a team, but it also just that it's a team that the league has looked at them and thought, well, they don't necessarily fit our ideas of what like a traditional star-driven, team would do in the past. It's like a cohesive unit that does something really well. You brought up another team, though, that they remind you of. Yeah, to

me, they're less the warriors and they're more the sons. Like, with Jaws, Nash. Not that these are all, and if these are always very rough comparisons, right? For sure. I looked at them, like, they're at their best when they have Jaron at the five. They're spreading the

court and running. So he's kind of like the Amari type. Jaws Nash. And I think what's going to be key for them to go back what we were talking about before is that wing defense is the sean marion type do they have enough wing defense from clark from brooks and i think it's possible ultimately they have to use jaron in that role as your wing stopper i think that might be kind of the ceiling for this team because you start you start game planning out if they play the lakers in a series who's actually going to guard lebron james

Right? They play the Mavs in a series. Who's actually going to guard Luca Donchich? Well, they have some people to throw at him. I mean, yeah, I mean, they've, like, they have a bunch of good team defenders, too, which is interesting. Like, Kyle Anderson, I was telling you this,

like, he just is so, he, it's, what a luxury to have, like, a guy who is a converted point guard who's six foot nine that you can just plug in there. And a shot that just defies everything in my, in my basketball DNA. Like, the way he shoots, I just can never, ever get used to it. But quickly before we do that, I think what I'm kind of talking about, too, with the team thing is, like,

those teams all sort of like predated like a paradigm shift in the NBA. I've wondered a little bit if, like, the rule changes have benefited Memphis's, like, mentality and style of play because they're real, we've talked about, they love to defend. They defend as a team. They're smart. I don't know that we're ever, I don't know how often you're going to see a paradigm shift like you saw in like 14, 15 with the warriors that, like, people didn't see and it caused, like,

mass mis-evaluation of players. I don't know if we're seeing that, but Memphis does seem like they're on to something with how they accrue talent. Quickly, I want to, like, jump through. Desmond Bain, most improved player,

what do you think about that? Is there validity to that? Sure. Though, I hate giving most improved player to second-year players because they're supposed to improve. Like, that pisses some people off when you say that.

I felt the same way. Like, when Luca made that jump to like MVP level, I was like, well, yeah, he was right there. I don't know. That's a funny, that really irritates people when you say that. I say it too, so I don't know.

Most improved to me is kind of a made-up award anyways. It's kind of like a low-key disc because that means you used to be really bad and now you're good or something. I never liked that award. I always thought it was reserved for people who were like coming from off the radar a little bit and they jumped on to a path that we didn't expect.

Because you know what every player is going to say. I was always this good. I asked to get the opportunity. Like 100% they're all going to say that. Yeah. Bain this year, I think we saw some of the like the playmaking. Those things are going to come in time. I think we saw those in Summer League a little bit.

The regular season is a little bit different. I mean, I think Kyle, just give him the stats. Bain has had a massive jump statistically this year. Well, yeah, in terms of his counting stats, he's way up. I mean, he went from 9.2 last year to 17.7 this year, and he's up to 2.4 assist. As a defender, he's basically up to like close to a plus. defender. I mean, we've sung his praises 100 million times on here. I mean, he's a, he's a great

relocating shooter. He can, and if he's going to be able to hit those dribble pull-ups, that's another wrinkle that you can throw in there. I think he's a pretty underrated passer, honestly. But I think more like creating and getting to the rim his size, because he's not like a super explosive athlete, physical driver, but doesn't like get over the rim, things like that. I love Bain. But yeah, anything else you want to add on Bain before we move on? I mean, you look at Desmond Bain. You look at the success he's had as the number 30 pick. And then it's like, man, Boston was at 14 and they drafted Aaron Neesmith for the exact same role. And you saw, okay, Memphis got a much better player 16 picks later. That to me says,

whoever in the Memphis front offices, I expect they're going to start going around the league. I'd expect some guys from that front office to get GM jobs pretty soon. Because what they've done, top to bottom speaks for itself. Yeah, you see like a ripple effect from like innovative thinking. You know, we saw that with Mori. Maybe we'll see that from this Memphis, you know, how they're approaching things for sure. Just some other like guys that I wanted to just bounce around talk here a little bit about. You talked about Stephen Adams kind of finding his groove again.

It is a really nice fit for them. De Anthony Melton is a guy that got shipped. off from Phoenix, I believe, right? And is a guy who's been in a little bit of a rut recently, but is another nice piece for him. If he starts to kind of get back into a rhythm, he was actually somebody that was on the path for Most Improved. I'd heard some people talk about him on that front.

Kyle, I was going to say, I know you want to do a Zaire Williams victory lap. So out with it. No, no, I don't think it's a victory lap. I don't think it's a victory lap. Talk about your love of Zaire Williams, because I don't know if everyone was around last year figure Zeyer Williams' love.

so let's just get into it for a second. I think that me getting credit for it would be... Please take credit. I don't want this fake humility nonsense. Take the credit and talk about the player you like. The whole core of it is that it was stupid. It was like, this is a guy who was like on the radar and the weirdness of last season made people really read into what he was.

But I want people to know, I want people to understand what I say. I'm not expecting this guy to turn into like Paul George or something. I think that Zaire is going to become, a really useful, versatile defender, a guy that's going to be like catch and shoot, get to the rim. I mean, we've seen, he's hit some shots lately, and I think that's a lot of what this has been, and he's a lob threat for Jha. Who is Zaire Williams? Why did you like him? And what has he done this year? I guess I'm assuming if they listen. No, don't assume that. Give him the story. Give him the story. They very quick, the elevator pitch. Tell him who he is. Zire Williams. Okay, he's a guy who

coming out of high school. He's like a six-nine wing. He measured it almost six-10 at the NBA Combine, long arms, really big guy. I played a weird season at Stanford that was abbreviated with COVID, with injury, weird team. Wasn't really a good fit, but he played high school ball with like BJ Boston and Brony James and all these guys at Sierra Canyon. So he's been on the radar for a while. So he comes, he slide, he actually, I mean, he went 10. That was a surprise to people.

There were people that a lot of people, Memphis fans, had me come on the radio because they were just like panicking. They were like, why did we reach for this guy? to me it's a good sign. I think the cool thing about Zaire is that he doesn't have a lot of pressure on him. Like he's in a situation where he can come along slowly and his warts aren't going to like really, really show. We talk about that being important a lot.

His challenge is similar to Reddish like we talked about. It's similar to Kevin Knox. Off the dribble, he's skinny. He loses his balance. He's a pretty awful finisher at times. But he's a great lob threat. So if you're with John Morant, there are enough pieces existing on Memphis right now

that he can kind of, but they've played him a lot. You know, I think people being in and out of the lineup, and they've really invested in his development, I've noticed. Are you still a Zaire believer like me? Yeah, I think what always impress me about Zaire, even when he was struggling in college, it always seemed like he had a good feel for the game. It always seemed like he knew when to pass and when to shoot.

He didn't take a ton of shots outside the flow of the offense. And I remember actually talking to Taylor at Summer League about this, And we were talking about how with some of these rookies sometimes, it's hard for a good team to play a rookie if he doesn't know how to play within the flow of the offense. And I thought that was always Zaire's biggest calling card is that, okay, this guy knows what he needs to do, and he's not going to extend himself too much.

The shots he takes, even if they don't go in, those are good shots from the take more often than not. He's just a smart. I guess I'll boil it down, he's a very smart player. He is bright, and that was another thing. You listen to him. You listen to him. And I was going back and watching, like, some earlier kind of comps.

I'm not saying he'll become this, but if you go look at guys like Otto Porter who are like, or McHale Bridgett who are like physically, he doesn't have as long arms as those guys. But he physically is built like them. And at 19, none of those guys were like great shooters from three, but they were good foul shooters. And they kind of slowly developed as they went. And it's kind of, he's, to me, it's just a fast. thing to think of where some of those guys were when they were at 19 and where they are now. And we weren't given Zaire that same kind of leeway, which I just was all I always thought was kind of ridiculous.

If he was a senior, would he have been and playing really well? Would he have been a top five pick or top 10 pick? Who knows? Probably. Anybody else that you want to jump on for the gris before we wrap it up? Was there a player jumping out for you or anything? Any other thoughts? I would say what I'm most curious about, and this is a lineup we haven't seen really all

season because guys have been in and out. So it's Jackson at the five, Brandon Clark at the four, Dylan Brooks, Desmond Bain, John Morant. And it feels like those five guys fit really well together. They're all really young. They can all grow together. And I think sometimes, oh, Memphis has a lot of cap space this summer, but I don't necessarily think they're going to do anything. I think at this point, that's your five, an internal improvement might be enough for those five to be a great team for a long time. Yeah, that hits on the question I asked you about, like, are they missing a piece? I'm kind of wondering if they still need that elite shot creator because, you know, Jha, even though he has gotten better as a shooter, can you rely on him in the half court? You know, he does get a lot of baskets in like the, he does, he reverse is kind of what like Chris Paul likes to do.

He likes to do like right side snake back and do like a little floater in the middle of lane thing. But can you rely on him in that sense? Is Bain going to be enough of a shot creator? Is Jaron Jackson? I'm kind of wondering about that in a playoff series when the scheming kind of gets to gridlock and you need somebody to get a bucket. Do they have a guy like that? Do you have somebody that they think is Jha the most likely? What do you think about that?

Well, I mean, he's obviously the most likely. He's getting 25 points a game. He's at all start. But that doesn't necessarily mean, it's a different game. think that it necessarily means it's a shoe in certainty thing because you get into the playoffs, it's a different sport, as we've seen. I mean, I have been really impressed with Job, but those things kind of linger as like, we'll see, maybe possibly, because even great players have gotten. Can they win a playoff series, I guess is the question. Can they win more

than one playoff series? What do you think, depending on the matchups, I guess? It'll be really fun to see. I mean, I'd be very curious. I do think it is funny sometimes. I remember watching the Mavs Now, obviously, I'm from Dallas, so I'm a bit biased. But the Mavs Grizzles come on ESPN. And all the panelists were like, oh, yeah, I'd pick Jove or Luca. And I'm just like, all right, it does seem like sometimes the next thing, everyone gets very excited. The Grizzlies are the next thing. They've been a great story.

But now it gets real. Now it gets real. Now, I was telling you, if I had to guess, they're either going to see LeBron James in the first round or Luca Donchich. And that's going to be heck of fun to watch. watched and I can't wait. Yeah, there's so many series that I would love to see. I would love to see Memphis Golden State. I'd love to see Memphis Phoenix. Any combination of those, but those are going to be big boy. Oh, God, I said a cliche there, but those are going to be a real test to kind of level up and see, similar to like the way OKC back in early 2010s had to kind of, you know, had to kind

go through people to beat the man to be the man type of a thing. Charks, what are you working on right now? I'm actually working on a Duke piece. I think we'll probably talk about Paolo next week. I think it's time to have the Paolo Boncherro discussion. It's time to talk about Palo, Bencaro. It indeed is. Oh, is it Bencaro? I just butcher his name, huh?

Is that how you say it? I've heard so many, I said Benchero for years. We're going to have to look this up so we don't sound too stupid next week. We'll iron that out. We'll make sure that we're on top of that. And I have something coming up soon here about it's going to be surprise. I'm not going to say what it is. It's a video, though. So come on

to the ringer.com and why check out all the other... Give people an reason to watch. What are you doing? It's a surprise. It's a surprise. Just watch for it. You'll like it. Charks is really on me today. So check out all the other awesome work that we have coming up all the time on

the ringer.com and all the other great podcast that we have on Spotify and on the ringer feed, Bill's feed, all over the place. So, Charks, good to see you, man. Yeah, as always. I'm with me way