The Ringer NBA Show - Can the Grizzlies Change Team-Building? | The Answer

Episode Date: April 9, 2022

Chris and Seerat start the pod by giving props to the Memphis Grizzlies and analyzing their amazing success this season as a small-market franchise. Next, they discuss how their winning ways could inspire other teams in the same situation (16:49) and detail how they were able to build such a potent team through smart drafting and trades.(20:16) After the break, they debate which teams could be following their lead (25:28) and wrap up their conversation by speculating how owner Bob Para can make further improvements going into next season.(38:00) Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Are you ever curious what's going on behind the scenes in Hollywood? You watch a Netflix show or a Marvel movie and you wonder, why was that person in it? Why did this movie get made? I'm Matt Bellany, founding partner of Puck News, and I'm covering the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. With my new show, The Town, on the Ringer podcast network, I'm going to take you inside Hollywood with exclusive insight on what people in show business are actually talking about. Multiple times a week, we're going to bring you short, digestible episodes. featuring some of the smartest people I know breaking down the hottest topics in entertainment

to tell you what's really going on. Follow the town now and listen on Spotify. Hello and welcome to the Ringer MBA show. My name is Chris Ryan. It's the answer. I'm joined as always by Siritt Soey. What's up, Siritt? How's it going, Chris?

Let's go to Memphis. Let's go. I'm excited. Let's go to Beale Street. I don't even know if Beale Street is really popping anymore. I don't know if there's a different, like, cooler part of Memphis to hang out. It's been a minute since I've been there.

But Memphis is all my mind because as we finish up this season. I think we can say that while we're going to be getting a lot of post-mortems on the Lakers to fill our time between now and the playoffs, Memphis was the story of the season, this Grizzlies team. And one of the interesting things that came out of this amazing season that they had where they obviously took the leap. John Morant made himself at least briefly an MVP candidate, definitely an all-MBA candidate. And they got contributions from all up and down their roster and were pretty unbeatable even without Jha. The thing that's out of it is whether or not Memphis is somehow like an antidote to the super team paradigm of

team building. And the idea of like going out, trying to find yourself two to three superstars to build your roster around, is there another way? And I think small market teams have been searching for that other way and have been toying around with that other way for a while. But Memphis is among the first teams to really, truly hit on that. And so we wanted to talk a little bit today about whether or not Memphis is Memphis and you can't copy what they did or or whether or not Memphis should give hope to teams like Detroit or teams like Indiana or teams like Charlotte on how they could go about maybe getting out of the middle. So, Siritt, thank you for joining me today on the Answer podcast to talk about Memphis.

No problem. I'll be here every week. Everybody's like, it's their second favorite team. Memphis has become like the darlings of the NBA. Do you share that sentiment? Yeah, they might be my favorite team though. As somebody who doesn't have an actual favorite team, like they've been my favorite team for like, Probably like a year and a half now, honestly. I was very high on them in the off season, which is to say I thought that they could be the fifth seed. Yes.

So they've exceeded pretty much every expectation. But yeah, like how could you not like this team, honestly? You can count like pretty much any moment in this season. The one that I'm probably like most fixated on recently was like, they beat the suns, like, sans jaw, no Jaron Jackson, no Stephen Adams, no Desmond Bain, Dylan Brooks, is talking shit to the guy who you don't talk shit to. Like, Devin Booker is the ultimate fuck around and find out player in the NBA.

And Dylan Brooks was like, yeah, no, I'll piss him off. And Desmond Bain is like, yeah, I'll piss LeBron off. Like, they don't really care and they enjoy it. And they also expect it. They invite it. Tim McMahon did an article for ESPN on, you know, their culture and everything. And Jaron Jackson was like, yeah, you know, like, I think there comes a time in, like, a lot of these games when teams and players just get pissed off.

And, like, we kind of, we see it coming. And it's, it is what it is. And it's fun. and we don't really let it impact us. And yeah, it's just, I don't know, they're really, they're old school. They're the closest thing to a college team this league has. And I mean that both in the Cinderella, everybody's falling in love with St. Peter's way. And I also mean it in the badass Michigan UNLV swagger way.

Yeah. Where, you know, like, there's a little bit of like, oh, nobody believes in Memphis. Nobody saw this coming. And then they play like, we're the one seat. You guys are in our house. like we'll play the game we want to play and you know you mentioned the game recently where basically the entire team was out except for Dylan Brooks and there was a guy who I'd never heard of before and haven't heard of since who had like a pretty sick dunk and the bench reaction was like a high

school game like you would think that they just won like the Catholic League title in a like a city somewhere in the States like in a high school league because it was just like pandemonium it's pandemonium. It's pandemonium, and I think in a modern league where it can feel pretty stayed, and it's not uncommon to turn on a TV, and it's the third quarter, and no one in Miami is back at their seats yet. And nobody on the bench really, like, moves. And in a lot of ways, this season has been about what, like, kind of didn't work,

whether it's the Lakers or the Nets or the Jazz or whoever, where it's like, oh, it's too bad. Or even teams like the Bulls that were really, like, fun in the beginning and weren't able to sustain it because of injuries. Memphis has persevered throughout this entire thing and haven't really had since the first 10 games or whatever, the first 20 games, have not had a blit. They were like 10 and 10 and since then have gone absolutely nuts. Yeah, that player was, I'm going to learn how to pronounce his name. Maybe we'll all know his name by the end of the playoffs.

Santi Almata out of Spain, he's got to be a rookie. I mean, I've been waived by now. I have no idea. But you know, these guys all like each other too. I really think that they take joy in each other's successes right now, like every single time that, you know, Jaron Jackson doesn't get up for a pump fake or, or, you know, John Morant, somebody goes under a screen and he hits a three. Like, that is something that they understand to be like a collective win for all of them. But yeah, I mean, 20 and 4 without him, they had some breaks in that as well.

I agree with you. I went back through their season, just like looking at their streaks here and there. and it's kind of nice to know the universe does work this way a little bit but for all the bad luck some teams have had Memphis when they would get warm they were able to get hot because they got to play crappy teams

like they did go on like runs where it was like you know spurs rockets like they would rack up some good like confidence building wins I think in some of those streaks and then they would go off and beat real teams and sometimes beat real teams without job obviously but yeah they caught they caught some breaks

Yeah, they got injured Golden State. They just got like, they beat the Sun's full strength, but they got the Sixers without Joel, Clippers without Paul George, a couple of those. Mavericks, without Luca, but it's also Memphis without Jock, right? So they're dealing with the same deficit. I love the synergy between team and city, and they embody all of these sort of cliched things that just happened to be very true for them. Like the blue collar city's relationship with its chippy, defensive-minded team.

that doesn't, you know, care what you think about them. And I think, like, the thing that makes them really fun is the fact that all that stuff is actually genuine. And also, there's ways to want to prove people wrong, right? Like, we've seen this type of team come out before. Like, they've been compared to the Hawks. And the Hawks kind of felt like they had a bit of an inferiority complex. Sure.

But with the Grizzlies, it's a little bit different. I almost feel like they have a lot of players who, I mean, we know Jaws' story, went to Murray State, like, I think every single feature about him has somehow referenced that he grew up around a lot of, like, blue chip teams. Yeah. Like, just, you know, a stone stroll away from Kentucky, like, you know, growing up in South Carolina and, you know, North Carolina basketball dominates and everything. But I think that they have a lot of players on the team that grew up in those circumstances and, you know, were in those circumstances long enough to actually understand that the hype machine isn't really that indicative of how good you are as an individual. And they want to be recognized for sure. But I also like, it's just a subtle psychological difference that I think can like prevent a team like Memphis from, you know, letting that seep into the locker room too much. Does that make sense? Of course.

Yeah. I mean, look, I think that there's alternate timeline Memphis's that are out there in the multiverse where they're a 30 win team that relies too heavily on Jha and Jaron Jackson hasn't worked out. Or they're a 42 win team. and guys like Desmond Bain and Dylan Brooks are like, we're not really good enough for me not to be getting more opportunities. You know what I mean?

And, you know, like we may meet that Memphis team in a couple of years when everybody needs to get paid. And you have to make decisions about whether or not the seventh or eighth or ninth guy on this team should be making $10 million or not. And even if that player might go earn that contract somewhere else, they're going to have to make some decisions eventually. but this Memphis team kind of got high on their own confidence.

Like their own sensory awareness of how good they could be has done nothing but power them up rather than create any kind of frailty. Like there are a lot of teams out there that crumple under new expectations or a new spotlight. And in some ways, like I wonder whether the Memphis of it, like being not a major market, Verneau had a lot of fun at the expense of ESPN spending the day in Memphis to do like Memphis Day for their coverage. And they were using like pictures of a background of Memphis from like 20 years ago and the skyline didn't even look that way. And they're talking about all this and all this stuff. And I wonder whether or not just being outside of the spotlight for some of this developmental period helped. And now we come to the playoffs and it's really their coming out party.

Yeah. Ultimately for them maybe just isn't about other people, right? That's when the expectations can get to you. And for them, everything just seems so internal. Yeah, I don't know. It's really interesting. I feel like they really enjoy the fact that nobody believes in them. They expect it.

We can get into the team building side of this because I think that that actually really informs what, you know, this culture that's kind of like somewhere organically but also very much intentionally kind of propped up here. It's hard to imagine that this isn't like an algorithm working out. Like, you know, obviously. We can get into like how like Robert Para, the owner and the money that he's put into the team, the money that he may have to spend on the team down the line. There was a really interesting Brian Windhorter.

article about that, how rich he is and whether or not he'll pay the tax if it comes time to break off money for Bain and for Brooks and for other guys on the team. But I almost feel like these guys benefited from other teams poor fortune in a lot of ways. If Utah had worked out this year, if the Lakers had worked out this year, if Lillard had stayed healthy this year and the Trailblazers were able to put something together with Powell and McCollum and him and be better than what they were, which was an abomination. If Zion had been healthy and the pelicans had been good, a couple of these, like, elements that kind of, like, cleared out a little bit of space

for a team like Memphis to make the kind of jump that the suns did out of the bubble with Chris Paul, you know, like the following season. I think that they really benefited from circumstances, but the genius of the team was, like, seizing that moment and recognizing that opportunity and putting themselves in that position. Yeah. I don't think they thought they were going to be this good this year. It's hard to imagine. I mean, like, they have a, what is.

Is it six-night-two winning percentage? The last three years when Morant's been on the team, since they've drafted Morant, they have gotten steadily better each season. You know, obviously a bubble season, but like they've gotten steadily better. This is a huge leap, though, from the season to last season.

Yeah, and they all have, right? They all have. And this is like, this is where the team-building part is really interesting. Because I think that there is like this idea in drafting, like the conventional wisdom of drafting guys that are a little bit older or that didn't rank highly in high school

is that, you know, they've worked really hard, but that also puts a cap on their ceiling because they might have gotten like the most that they can out of it, right? I think that's part of the reason that guy like Desmond Bain, who by the way played for the TCU Horn Frogs. The Horn Frogs, you guys, was their name. The example that I think crystallizes what you're talking about

is it's the difference between drafting Zaire Smith and McHale Bridges. It's drafting the guy where all you see on the tape is everything that could be and you ignore the dude who shows you everything he is. Yeah. So you're passing on a Villanova star who will do everything. everything you need him to do on the floor to get your team to a win. Yeah. Versus this dude who's like, well, he can jump out of the gym.

We just need to teach him how to play basketball. Just don't pass up on guys that spent three or four years at Villanova. I know. Especially when their mom works for the Sixers. And then check the other guy's allergies. Like, this is basic stuff. Do you have any allergies I should know about before we go forward? Like, it's just like, it's so maddening.

Sixers have, like, some athletic problems, some shooting problems. some defense problems on the perimeter. I wonder who could have solved that. Sorry. Oh, it would have been perfect. Yeah. It's okay. Get it out.

It's just like, it's like, oh, no, Matisse Stuyble can't go to Toronto. Like, it's like, do you think that was what was the difference last night for the Sixers' Raptors games? No. Oh, man. It's all right. It's okay, Chris. It's okay. You were saying, locating the type of player you draft.

Yeah. So Desmond Bayne did four years in college. Xavier Tillman did four years in college, in which he lost weight every single year, got a little bit better every single year, like went to the Draymont Green School of learning how to screen. Kind of like bridges. Like, it's Villanova and Michigan State are two schools that I think that do a really good job of teaching the fundamentals of the game. Ironically, actually, this is something that, so when the Warriors, out of the Warriors

lost to the Grizzlies, the last time, I think this was late March. Iguodala had a press conference after. This was the same night that Dylan Brooks was like, you know, talking about how, when Igueda got traded to the Grizzlies. is he didn't want to, you know, dress for the team. He was waiting for a way out to a contender. Dylan Brooks now is like, well, we saw the vision. He didn't.

That same night, Iguodala, being asked about his own team, like, you know, helping the young guys in his own team. Like, he gets into this conversation with the reporters about, you know, the differences between how players used to be and how they are now. And he was self-conscious about it, it felt like. He was like, you know, like, I don't really want to be an old head about it. But, like, I feel like my job is to reinforce, like, the fundamentals and the true essence of the game. He kind of made a reference to like, you know, the top level talent

is amazing, but the bottom is getting lower. Yeah. And, you know, as gatekeepers of the game, we have to make sure that we help sustain it and we pass down the right things. And he compared it to, he compared the modern NBA to a pickup game where, you know, guys just don't really know the tendencies of their opponent. Like the defense can have effort, but it doesn't necessarily, you know, like it's just really easy to take advantage of. And players don't necessarily care about getting scored on. Yeah. He talks about the art of the game.

And I was watching this and I was like, you know, he's not going to say it. And maybe he's not even thinking it. But man, like that is exactly what the Grizzlies are. Sure. Like that is exactly what the Grizzlies are. Like they have young players that spent a lot of time in college or you have a guy like Jaron Jackson who, you know, has a dad who's in the NBA, a mom who's also a basketball player and went to like at high school.

And then, you know, actually went to Michigan State. I think like looking to toughen up a little bit. It was very intentional about his development. They're seamless communicating on defense. Like, they're really smart. They are much smarter than your average young NBA team. So I think that there's, you know, I wonder if there's a, like, while there are, like, a lot of vets that they're playing that are getting pissed off playing them and pissed off about the things that the Grizzlies are saying, I wonder if there's also, like, kind of a begrudging respect that is developed as well. There's that money ball line where it's like, we'll be card counters at the casino.

And it's like, the Grizzlies, like, market. in efficiency is giving a shit. And I think that there's a world in which Brandon Clark, for instance, gets drafted by the Wizards or the Rockets or something post-harden and plays a couple of years in the NBA and then towards the end of his rookie deal is on a bad team and tries to get to a place where he's a 20 and 10 guy or an 18 and 9 guy or something and gets like a nice, healthy second contract somewhere, maybe not culturally a fit, maybe not going in the right direction, but whatever, it's a second deal.

kudos to like all these guys who are beneath that job bane jackson brooks tier who are like this might not translate to raw stats to get me my second deal or to get me like stability going forward but they're basically betting on making a deep playoff run and being on national television and having everybody be like wait who's Xavier Tillman who is this guy's awesome and that being their path to their future. And in the meantime, like, they might go to the finals. You know, like, in the meantime, they, like, they are seizing this now thing. And that's kind of where I wanted to start asking you a little bit about what ripple effects this team could have and what the wider MBA could kind of learn from it because as a Sixers fan and as a person who lived through, like, the process and this idea that, like, you know, everything comes along slowly and you draft these superstars and then you start to assemble talent. And then as Hinky led to Alangelo led to Mori, you kind of saw it become a little bit more like what we need is stars.

And we'll do anything for these stars. And that's how you wind up with Hardin. But I don't know if Memphis is going to do that. You know what I mean? Like I think that there was some chatter in January about like, I mean, if anybody's going to make a deal for Beal, Memphis should do it because Memphis has all of these picks and they have all of these guys who are pretty useful that they could fill out salary with. They don't maybe have like the giant contract that could go one for one with a Beal, but they could get close to there by trading a bunch of filler with their picks. But it's like, I'm pretty glad that they didn't trade for Beal.

I want to see this team in the playoffs. Yeah, they've been really patient about their timeline. And ironically, that patience is exactly what has now allowed them to really vault up. But it's really interesting how they built their team. Like Brandon Clark, you mentioned also another guy, did two years at San Jose, then transferred to Gonzaga before he was drafted too. That's one thing that Memphis really keyed in on. And that I think like smarter teams when they drafts are now keying in on too is like you can look at a guy's potential.

But like what if previous improvement is actually the best indicator for future improvement? You know, you look at some of these teams and you say, well, A, there's a lot of luck involved. But you also like you see a team like, again, Atlanta where there's this expectation of constant improvement. And that I think is sometimes where you get lost in team building is just the assumption that things are always going to go up. And that wasn't necessarily like necessary going to happen in Memphis. Like, let's, before we really get into it, like, let's get one thing out of the way about luck as well. The Grizzlies could have drafted Tray Young instead of Jaron Jackson. And if they draft Trey Young instead of Jaron, they never draft John Morat.

And I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have Trey Young, but I think that then you are looking at a very different team with a very different identity and we don't really know what it is. It could still be great, but, you know, could be very different. So, like, that's, they hit on Jod, they hit on Jaron. Those guys are great culture fits. They're compliments to each other. They're complimentary players. It's like I watched Sixers Pistons the other week and was pretty intrigued by that Pistons team.

I've tried to check them out a little bit more, even as they are trying to get better odds for the lottery. And I was thinking a lot about who goes with Cade, you know, because on one hand, you're Detroit and you haven't been good in a while. And maybe you just get the best guy you possibly can with the pick you have, even if it seems duplicative with some of the things that Cade does, although Cade's a pretty unique player. But I would love to see them get a Jabari Smith, who is just like a complete knockdown shooter. that you can then kind of build that offense around those two components of Cade and a shooter. It's not always like those single draft that you have to get right. It's the two or three drafts that you had to get right

while you're still bad, you know? Yeah, they just took a lot of shots, I think. This is what small market teams have to do. They maximized on the guys that they were going to lose. So I went through the Gasol trade and the Conley trade. I kind of just wanted to figure out how they put their rotation together, essentially. So let's get into it a little bit. And incidentally, can we just say,

very few teams handle a changing of a face of the franchise this well. Yeah. I feel like Conley and Gasol will both have their numbers retired by Memphis and will be remembered as grisly as when they are done, even though Gasol won a title with Toronto and Conley's been on Utah for a couple years. For sure. So Gasol they have for the first year of Jaron Jackson. No, they traded him in Jaron's first year.

Just to speak to, you know, creating room, right? Like just like the Cade conversation you were having. They traded him for C.J. Miles, Yonis, Valentunas, Dilan Rite, a 2024 second round pick. The Dillon Wright trade that happens after that, they use those guys in rotation, but then they get Brandon Boston Jr., who then they put into the Jonas Valentunus swap for Stephen Adams. Right. And that also gets some Zaire Williams. So they are still benefiting from that right now. But the big one is really like the Mike Conley trade.

They trade Mike Conley for Grayson Allen, Jay Crowder, Darius Basley, Kyle Corver, and a 2020 first round pick. Basley and a second rounder turn into Brandon Clark. Crowder, Solomon Hill, Andre Goddala traded for Justice Winslow and Gorgie Jank. Winslow could have actually really hit for them, but he gets hurt before the first game of the bubble. I can't talk about Winslow. I've always loved his game and it bums me out. It really sucks. The first press conference that he had in the bubble, he was so hyped.

Like, he was so excited. And I think, like, two days later, we find out that he's going to be out. It was, that was brutal. Then they turned, they turned Corver, who, like, they weren't really probably going to do anything with. They turned Corver and Javon Carter into the Josh Jackson deal with the sons. Yeah. Trying to do, like, a second draft thing with Josh Jackson. That doesn't work out, but it gets some DeAnthony Mountain in a second round pick and a 22 second round pick,

which they then used to trade for Xavier Tillman. And then they get Desmond Bain trading two second round picks for the Celtics 30th pick. I think that was actually his son's pick. But basically you've got, you know, Conley turns into Clark Melton and Tillman and Gassol turns into Stephen Adams and Zaire Williams. Dylan Brooks is like a pre-climbing guy. Funny enough, he was, I think on draft night, traded for Anthony Melton just like a second round swap. And then they get Conchart was undrafted in 2019. Kyle Anderson and Tyos Jones sign as free agents for less than 10 million a year each.

And now, you know, this is the Grizzlies, right? Like outside of, like, they hit on John and Jaron, but the rest of the rotation is just, man, it's no crumbs. Yeah. There's no crumbs in this at all. There's a couple things that just didn't hit. And I think it was really interesting to go through the players that they tried on that didn't work out because I think we have this conception of, like,

small market teams can't fail. They can't get anything wrong. I don't think that's necessarily true. I think you just have to keep kind of trying. And, like, the Grizzlies have always been there at, like, the opportune moments. Like, getting Andre Iqigua. it was an opportune moment. It's like seeing that like the warriors

are going to need to make space at that moment. I think it was like when, when KD was going to the Nets and they wanted to get Russell back. That's just seeing things. That's just being active. That's like being in the conversation.

Like they're always, there's, they're always in it. They made like 40 deals for like Patrick Beverly and Eric Bledso this summer that were like centered around it. That didn't really,

nothing really came out of them. But that, to me, has kind of been like, I guess like the closest thing to a strategy for them. You could have this conversation where it's like, is all of this stuff

window dressing around, the fact that they drafted a guy number two who is playing like a number one pick. You know, they got John Morant, and John Morant is having a better career than Zion Williamson. What if they got the first pick in that draft, right? I mean, they would definitely have taken Zion. You had to take him that year, but... You had to, but it's interesting.

I think, like, I remember talking to somebody on the Pelicans that year, and this was before Jaws rookie year and before Zion's injury. Like, it was a conversation. Sure. And it was a conversation because of Zion's health and because of whose jaw was. Yeah, because I think that people saw that sneaker explode and they were like, this could this could go poorly. And I think you could reasonably look at John and be like, he plays with that Westbrookian abandoned and there's going to be a time where he comes down on his back or he comes

down on his knee and it doesn't look great, you know? And the thing is, is that they've missed him a lot this season. Like he's only played, what, 56 games, 57 games or something like that. Like, they have experienced life without Jod. This is not a one-man show. This is not like an elite player bringing a bunch of like savvy role players along with him like there's like plenty of evidence to suggest that this team is just as good without Jaws they are with him now I think when you get into a playoff situation and you need the defenses are more intense and you need that elite talent to create baskets for themselves and others like Jaws going to be indispensable and his health is going to pretty much determine how far they can go in the playoffs but geez like this is not a one-man show

you know and this is not a matter of Steph elevating a bunch of guys around him or something like that. This is like what would happen if Steph missed a third of the season and the Warriors just kept cruising, you know? Yeah. If this was a team without a jaw, they would be exactly like the original Grit and Grand Grizzlies, right? Where you'd be saying like, man, they could really use a guy like Jha. I look around some of the other teams that are in various stages of their rebuilding project.

For instance, like the Rockets, which have been kind of like a way station for bad contracts and also have like, you know, they have wall on the books. They still have Eric Gordon, Christian Wood, who's kind of like a stats guy, but like I don't know is necessarily like a winning player per se. And then you've got Jalen Green in who can clearly get 32 a night if you give him the opportunity to do it. But I don't know if he has that like jaw quality to him that's like I can take this team over the top, start building around me.

I think the problem with that team is what Iigodala was talking about. Is like the fundamentals. Yeah. Maybe. I mean, I think you're probably right. The closest thing that I see to a Memphis on the horizon is Detroit. Just because I think Detroit has drafted some really interesting players aside from Cade and then clearly just hit the motherload with Cade.

Sadiq Bay, man, Villanova. Again. Just listen to Jay Wright when he talks, you know? Like, just take his guys. Colin Gillespie, go number one. What do you think when you look around at some of the other teams out there? What's an example of a team that are doing things like maybe the right way in the Memphis mold? Is there any team that you think are?

kind of like starting to follow that or all these teams have the problem that maybe they've got smart players maybe they've got like an interesting core but like they haven't hit this almost like miracle cap situation that the grizzlies find themselves in for like at least i believe one more season right yeah and the miracle cap situation i think is a function of just having a lot of late round picks right like the later a guy is drafted especially in the second round like the less he can make on his second contract too. I think that will probably naturally end up helping Memphis down the line too. Like there's only so much, like they decide that they want to keep a guy like Xavier Tillman that Tillman can make. I don't know the exact numbers, but you can't pay him like

you can pay a first round pick. That, by the way, is just unfair. Sure. It almost speaks to like the general problem with like, you know, scouting and like how we perceive players. Um, like it's baked into the CBA that a player that was drafted in the first round, first 10 picks, would, you know, years later, after experiencing the NBA, deserve more money than a second round pick when, you know, honestly, like, the alternative is probably true because, like, the second round pick probably had to prove a lot more, probably got less opportunities. And, like, you know, in most cases, would have to make it work in circumstances that aren't great,

whereas, like, the first round pick usually gets, like, the opportunities and is put in better positions to succeed. Right. But, yeah, I think that's kind of what Memphis is keyed into. like in terms of, you know, it'll help their cap, but it also helps your culture. They remind me of the Raptors in that way, too, and that they just have a lot of players who have had to work really hard and that learn how to play team basketball as well.

And believe in that and believe that it succeeds. So as a player, when you actually believe that, I think that that can really help you. The cabs, I think, probably have some similarities as well. OKC is a team that I'm thinking about, where I'm like, how many seasons are you going to cap how good you can be, just to try to be in the lottery again. There's a whole other OKC conversation to have about whether or not

this is actually more embarrassing than the process. And whether or not, like, it's strange that the process was like this national sports headline for several years. Well, all of it's fine if you don't talk about it. Right. But the OKC thing is just like fine that like I just assume that the Sixers

can trade Tobias Harris into cap space in the off season or something like that. And that like, so when is the OKC thing going to happen? Is it next season once they, get this picked. And I know they've missed out on, you know, Kade. They missed out on like maybe trying to be in the top of the lottery these last two seasons. But I'm sure the culture is great. Shea's great. Giddy's awesome. Like there's some definitely some cool things happening there. But I kind of just don't know like if this is even an NBA team. Yeah, I, I'm with you there.

Like there's a lack of structure there that I just wonder like long term like these are the players that you're developing. And is that necessarily a good thing for them? Like obviously their asset management has been amazing, but how different is what they're doing from, you know, a team like Houston. Like you said, like they don't have a jaw type of guy, right? And it kind of brings,

like, brings us to a question that you asked as well, where it's like, when do you start building in earnest? Because Cleveland did it very quickly. You know, we'll never know what the Cleveland, if Rubio had stayed healthy or if,

you know, Jared Allen had stayed healthy or if Evan Mobley had stayed healthy or if Colin Sexton. Like, they had a legitimately, intriguing, possibly top half of the Eastern Conference team and were not slouches. They beat really good teams like any given night.

And then injuries just completely decimated that team. But they surrounded a lot of those young guys with the Kevin Loves and the Lori Markanins and they traded for Caris Lavert in the middle of the season as a kind of playoff infusion. And it didn't quite work, obviously. And now they've got some decisions to make about Sexton and a bunch of other guys. Yeah. Like when does Oklahoma City say, screw it, like, we'll go for Jeremy Grant or whatever, like start bringing in the like the kind of upper level player to compliment giddy, Shea and whoever they draft in this year's draft.

It's like if I'm, if I'm Shay, right, like first of all, they've already given him $200 million. Yeah, and he seems to love it there. He's posing in a Reuben McIntyre T-shirt. I would also love having $200 million. Sure. Yeah. No, for sure. And I mean, he does seem to love it.

But, you know, he's going to be out for the rest of the season. He, like, you know, he hurt his ankle. And now, like, that's good enough for it. Like, I'm not going to pretend. I know the actual particulars of his injury. But, like, you know, in a team like, okay, see, that's now good enough for him to be out for the rest of the season as opposed to playing games. But, you know, if you look at the, like, the 10 games before that,

like, he's averaging almost, like, 30 points a game. And they only won one of those games. He's arrived. But, like, there is also just, like, a lack of guys around him. Like, they have a lot of young players. Yeah. And they have a lot of players with potential. We keep saying they're going to be really fun. When is that going to happen, I guess?

Maybe this is the off season where they do try to surround, you know, like, I think now they have enough. If they do Shay and Giddy and then they bring in another pick, so let's say they get Chet, Jabari, one of the top picks. And then they could trade for Tobias Harris and just have Tobias Harris be a contributing NBA player on that team. I think that would be fine. Like that you could have a pro like Tobias on the squad. You're manifesting, bro?

No, but it doesn't have to be another Horford or Kemba rental, like, where you're just like, we're just, we'll set you up with a good situation next. Yeah, like, isn't the situation of Chris Paul helping you get to the playoffs better for your player development long, long term anyways? The Sons would say it's worth it. Yeah. Yeah. So Memphis is currently going to, they're the second seat, correct?

Yeah. And so they will play one of the play-in teams coming out of that rigmarole. Let's say they get through that second round. I will say, like, not, I mean, I think they'll get through it. But if they get the wolves, that's going to be a really interesting series. I think they can beat the wolves. I guess maybe I'm also not as convinced about Minnesota as some other people are. But they come out, they play the seven seed.

They do that. And then they'll play the 3-6 seed, which could be the Warriors or the Nuggets if the season ended today. So let's say they all lose to the Warriors in the second round. A, would you consider this season a success? And B, would you go into the Beal market? Would you go into the superstar player market? Would you go and try and find a big time star to put next to all these guys, even if it meant saying goodbye to some of the hometown heroes that you have?

Yeah, losing to the Warriors is nothing to be ashamed of, you know? Yeah, but they don't have room for all the picks that they have. Like, they should probably get off some of them. You know, if you ask me in the off season, is that success? I would say yes. But I think that's actually going to be really the biggest test for them. Like up until now, they have looked at every single part. of their success as almost separate from their decision making.

Like they've been really patient. Like you said, they didn't get into the beal market. And I don't really think that they ever had much of an intention to unless, you know, something really obvious popped up in front of them. Like they've just wanted to see how this thing goes for a while. And then I think like it's just a question of like your internal metal there. Like are you now that, you know, you've hypothetically arrived. and you've lost on this big stage,

which, by the way, a Warriors Grizzly series, I'm not necessarily giving it to the Warriors. Like, they, they show that they can, they can really frustrate the hell out of the Warriors. Like, this is, like, this is the exact type of team that the Warriors hated playing in their championship years, and it's the same type of team that they hate playing now. Like, it's like the Gritt and Grand Grizzlies,

except there's no Tony Allen for you to try to take out of the game. And, you know, John Morant is just going to be a much better score in an impossible question. wandering for your defense in a way that that team never presented. So that series, I think, would be very real. But if the Grizzies were to lose it, I think it's like, it's almost like the circumstance of how they lose. Like, if you look at their loss to Utah last year, they kind of ended up spending that offseason doing what Utah didn't, which is like they looked at the reasons that they lost in the margins. Like, there's obviously things that, you know,

I think Jaws game management has gotten a lot better. And it still needs to continue to improve. Like, you look at that Wolves game. Like, he just, the Wolves perimeter defense, frustrated him and he pulls up for like this this horrible three with five seconds left on the clock and and Memphis loses that game like he's made a lot of strides there and that's like I'm sure it's something you'll continue to do but and they they did a good job of figuring out what they needed to internally improve but the front office also did a good job of being like oh okay so Jonas Valan Chunis is not going to be able to hang in the playoffs like we should probably try to find a trade for him and they go and get kind of the perfect guy to replace him

and that like in Stephen Adams like another five another great offense rebounder. They don't lose that part of their identity, but who's also just going to be much better on defense. And who also is like one of the legendary locker room guys. For sure. Good point. And then they get, they get rid of Grayson Allen too, who like, you know, like Donovan Mitchell was just licking his chops every single time with that one. Yeah. So I think it kind of depends on the circumstances in which they lose. Like if it turns out that it's like, you know, maybe Jaws taking 30 shots a game and it's like, oh, this is just too much for him. Like, yeah, maybe they do have to go a little bit big game hunting. But I don't know. I think it completely depends on what happens. Because like, you know, What kind of superstar do you think would fit well on Memphis and make them better?

Paul George. That's a really good one, yeah. Like somebody who maybe doesn't have to bear the face of the franchise stuff, but I mean, Clippers aren't getting rid of Paul George and Paul, but George doesn't want to leave LA. I don't think, but like the type. That is, that's it. Yeah. Like elite perimeter defender gets can make his own shot, can go off, but also doesn't need to be the highest usage rate guy.

The Beal thing is interesting. The flip side of this, which I don't even know how they would really pull this off since, by all accounts, this is like a four or five guy draft, and then everything below that is kind of throwing darts at a wall blindfolded. Not blindfolded, but like you might hit somebody at 9 or 12 who's just as good as the guy at 6. The flip side of this is Memphis using a bunch of their draft capital and maybe some sweeteners to get up into that top four. Now, I can't imagine any of the projected teams who are going to be at the top of the draft being like, what we really want to do is trade down and give Memphis a shot at Jabari Chet or Jaden Ivy or whoever. Yeah. But man, like, that would be also very interesting if Memphis, like, we're going to go full young guns and try to get like an elite guy out of this draft with all the stuff that we have.

And then you continue to kick the salary can down the road. And you don't have B-O on a Supermax or you don't have like a Paul George. I don't know who else is out there that they could get, you know? that would be interesting. That would be like... James Hardin. Look, the phone's there, and it works. You know, and I would be interested.

I don't know whether or not... But the thing is, is that, like, if you do picks and, like, Bain and two other guys for Hardin, I don't know if those guys are as good in Philly as they are in Memphis. I certainly don't know that you really want Hardin playing next to job. I don't really see the point of that, really. I appreciate you, like, giving me an out there. Yeah.

I mean, Maury and Clim and both guys that seem to work the phones a lot. Should we end by talking a little bit about whether Big Bob Perra is going to open the checkbook for these guys when the time comes? Looks like it. I mean, looks like his company is doing well. Yeah. Like he's, as Brian Winhor's putting, is deep pockets that are deepening. He's the third richest owner. Congratulations to him behind Balmer and Dan Gilbert.

And I think we've just seen with the Lakers, we've seen over and over again that, like, yeah, you don't necessarily can't buy championships, but you certainly have to pay for them. So once a team has achieved us. certain level of success and everybody's contract comes up, you may need to go deep into the tax to keep that team around. Our guy, Lightears, Joe Laker is trying to split the atom by having the next generation coming up behind Clay, Steph, and Dremond. And a lot of people have obviously said, like, well, what you could have done is, you know, packaged a bunch of these picks to get a fourth star for, for the Warriors now that would have made them a dynasty, like the literal old dynasty, but he wants to have the Duncan to Kauai turnover here with Cominga and Moody

and Wiseman, presumably. Winning never stops, baby. But at a certain point, you know, Jackson's gotten his extension, Jaws up for his extension. I know you mentioned that some of these guys can't even be paid that much, but this team will get more expensive. Right now, if you look at their cap sheet, it's like a miracle. It's Stephen Adams is the most expensive player and everybody else is pretty much at around $9 million, including Kyle Anderson.

So are we going to see a situation where? where, well, look, like we're not like a big market team and we can't afford to keep everybody and we wish them well and we just trust our culture to replenish a la the spurs maybe? Or do you think this is a team that deserves to be invested in? Based on that story, it seems like Pera is not going to have problem spending on a team that deserves to, you know,

have that money spent on them. And it just seems like it's really good timing for him as well. And that's like, we got some other stuff in that story just about like, you know, things outside of the team that he's been willing to pay for. Just like resources that they needed. Exactly.

Exactly. Um, and I think that's always like a good sell like, you know, money talks. So he's been able, he's been, he's been willing to spend it. And the other end, like, you know, some of the moves that the Grizzies have made that, you know,

I didn't necessarily mention have been a lot of it has been like, you know, making room for a trade exception and, you know, waving a certain guy. So I think they've been also. smart with your cap management as well. And I think from there, like, it's, it's like the Miami heat question, right? Like that offseason they had where they paid Dion Waiters and they paid Hassan White Side. Like, I look back at that and I'm like, well, could you have just trusted your own

culture to like replenish those guys? Right. And I think on some level, yeah, it just kind of depends on the player, right? Like, well, you look at a guy like Desmond Bain. I would probably pay Desmond Bain. Sure. Bain specifically has a skill that would make him an asset. Like any team would bend over backwards to get Desmond Bain into their building. So even if you pay Desmond Bain, I don't think that you're going to have a hard time moving in if it comes to that. The heat thing is interesting because even though that seemed nuts at the time, there was a certain, like, Miami takes care of its guys thing happening there

that I think was actually like a cool signal to the league that's like, we're never, like, this is like a different kind of franchise. Like if you perform for us, if you give us what we need, we're going to take care of you. And there's not a lot of franchises like that. We'll see if Memphis becomes one. Yeah, it's an interesting distinction, too, between the heat and the raptors. Like, I think the heat have always looked at player development as, like,

you're going to develop within our system, but we know that at the end of the day, you want to get paid. And I think the implicit promise of that is that if you do the things that you're supposed to do, you'll get paid. And I think the Toronto version of that has always been like, somebody will pay you. Like, it might not be us. Exactly. But that also bears itself out to be true, and it might be true with somebody like Desmond Bain,

and it ended up being true for them with like, with Norman Powell. Yeah. And then like, like, Gary Trent Jr. comes in and ends up basically being a younger Norman Powell with a hot shooting stroke. And this actually kind of would probably get similarly paid. Sure. But yeah, I don't know. That's kind of like going to be the major question for them.

A very expensive question eventually. Very expensive question. Yeah, at some point. But not yet. But like, it'll be interesting to go, to look back in like six weeks and see if we're We're talking about Western Conference Finals or if we're talking about, oh, that was a fun story. I guess that was a little bit, they were playing a little bit above their heads. Sierra, thank you so much for joining me this week.

We'll talk next week about something, probably a playoff preview. We were produced by Chris Sutton. Thanks for listening to The Ringer NBA show. And we'll catch you next week.