The Ringer NBA Show - Can the Mavericks Get Back on the Horse? | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 5, 2021

Today we’re joined by The Athletic’s Tim Cato to discuss the Dallas Mavericks’ slow start to the season (02:00). Later, the guys briefly talk about the Knicks performing above expectations (36:00) and take a look at some of the early championship contenders, including the Nets, Clippers, and 76ers (39:00) Hosts: Justin Verrier, Jonathan Tjarks, and Rob Mahoney Guest: Tim Cato Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Group Chat, the Ringers' weekly MBA group discussion, where right now we have no swagger to us. I guess that's all the time for this crew. Joining me today from Dallas, Jonathan Sharks. First off with three Dallas people on this pod, that's a ridiculous statement. I can't believe you'd even say that. Well, I was getting to it. I was going to say also from Dallas, Rob Mahoney.

Hey, guys. Happy New Year to all of you. And also, from Dallas. Yeah, yay. Tim Cato from the athletic. What's up, Tim? Hey, guys. Am I the only one physical?

Well, Charks is physically in Dallas. Do you live in Dallas technically? Are you suburbs? I'm living in Highland Park, baby. I'm out here. Yeah, not, see, not Dallas. That is definitely Dallas. Are you kidding?

No, no. No, that's rich Dallas. We're drawn lines already. We still support the common man in the city of Dallas, the actual limits. Says Tim from his 16th, four high-rise. All right, before we get into the geopolitics,

of Dallas in the Fort Worth area. We're going to talk about the maps today. And then in the back half of the podcast, we're going to talk about some teams who were expected to be contenders and whether or not we believe in them. All of that and more just after this. All right. We're back.

So three people from Dallas. Is this enough for a hoot nanny? Get out. Okay. Get out. Wait, can I keep going? Like, how many of you guys? Oh, no.

horse. Several? I wrote a horse once this summer for the first time. Really? It was really hard. I was freaking out, honestly. Well, you have your city issued horse the moment you move here or are born. Obviously, children get ponies. Yeah, yeah. But if you move here at a later point in life, it's a fully grown horse. Otherwise, how are you going to get around? This is a great point. Sharks, I want to know more about your horse riding this summer. Was this just like a day with the kid? Or what was this? No, it was my wife's idea for like a date.

And I was like, sure, I'd be cool to ride a horse. But it was actually really scary. We were like riding on like hills and stuff. And I was convinced I was going to fall off and like die, basically. Wow. I'm just hearing as you're telling this story, Kid Rocks, I want to be a cowboy baby just playing in the background. Maybe we could splice that in during the whole.

Well, now you're really dating yourself referencing that song. Let's be honest. We don't have Kid Rock money. We can't just be getting those rights. us off the bat like that. That's true. All right, let's get into this.

I'm calling you guys the Texas Triangle, by the way. Just if not, just think about that as we're going through this, that in my head, every question is prefaced with,

hey, the Texas triangle, what do you think about this? But the Mabs, becoming quickly one of the more interesting teams of this early going, I think last night had they not just beat

the rockets, we would be hitting the panic button right now. And this, for the listener at home, I am hitting a panic button for our panels here. Tim, let's start here. How do you feel about the Dallas Mavericks now three and four after last night's one?

I mean, it's always so fun and easy to be reactionary. And sometimes it's, I feel like doing it just anyway, because, you know, you got to get those takes off. But, I mean, I wrote about the, I wrote before the season that I expected a sluggish, slower start. You know, Chris Desperzingis remains out, although he seems like he's going to be back sooner, sooner than later. Donchich looked, still looks a little heavy, you know.

It was even kind of explained that, you know, he had, he had his whole plans to ramp back up. But he had a, he had a plan for a January start. So when the season came back in December, yeah, he wasn't right. Pretty much everybody was, you know, even willing to admit that, you know, it was a, it was hardly a secret because you could watch him and see how he looked and all that. But, you know, it was something even the Mavericks were emitting to an extent and something Carlyle mentioned last night. So I figured it would be a slower start. And, you know, it doesn't mean that some issues haven't popped up that are concerning, that that will persist even when Porzingis does get back, even when Luca, you know, is really firing at all cylinders, if you'll allow the cliche.

But, but yeah, I just, I don't think it's shocking. And I don't think that the preseason expectations of this team as a confident playoff lock, you know, maybe even something slightly better than that. I don't think that we got to throw those, you know, out the window just because, you know, they're three and four, even if they were two and five. I would, you know, be a little more worried, sure, but not, not, you know, full on panicking, not hitting the panic button, you were earlier. So I don't have one of those installed.

So it's just, it's not really possible for me. Tim, I got to ask. So this spin about Luca having a plan for January. Like, is that what happened? Are we buying this? Like, is that what was going on? Thank you, sharks. Yes. I mean, I mean, I think that a 21-year-old,

I thought the most interesting that's actually been said about him, the most honest thing was JJ Berea on the JJ Redick podcast, just a few days ago, I think. And he was talking about how, you know, Luca isn't really working out yet. isn't really, he doesn't really have that work ethic yet. He's 21. He enjoys himself.

You know, clearly he is a, you know, he gets in shape. He's in, you know, way better shape than the four of us, the Texas Triangle combined. If I can, if I can speak for y'all, you know, I don't. I mean, you know, maybe sharks' calves are looking great after that one was riding, my friend. I can tell you. Wouldn't that be more of a quads thing? I don't know. Well, charge you tell us.

Yeah, no, I do wonder how much of this is just like expectation, because this is kind of billed as not only Lucas extension, but like the Mavs ascension into a different tier in the NBA, especially coming off of that playoff loss. So I guess the question really is, A, do we think they can hit that higher level this season just in general? Like, do they have that in them this season the way the team is constructed? And do we think that they can live up to that?

Rob, where are you kind of on the whole just Dallas experience? I don't see a reason why they wouldn't. You know, it is a slow start for sure, as Tim laid out. But fundamentally, this is a pretty similar team to last year with a couple of nice changes, which I think should level them out kind of on both sides of the ball. I like what they've done. Rick Carlisle is historically a coach who will figure out his rotation over time. You give him the opportunity to do that.

And they have a lot of good pieces. It's just a matter of who plays together, who plays when, you know, getting Luca into shape, getting Luca to make more than one three-pointer for a week at a time. Like, that stuff will figure itself out. I think Dallas is still really good. and fundamentally it comes down to do you see this as an elite offense like it was last year or do you see it as kind of

a middle of the road offense which is what they've been so far and I think middle of the road might be generous given some of their performances so if we think Dallas is still a good offense which certainly we have every reason to think that they would be credibly and especially once they get Chris that Spursingis back it still looks like a really good team I think what Rob said is

good point talking about Carlisle being a guy who figures out rotations because he's started to make a lot of changes when you talk about that last night game in Houston. He moved Dwight Powell and Tim Harvey out of the starting lineup and started Willie Colley Stein and Maxie Kleber instead.

So he's starting to move guys around trying to figure out different notations. What's wild is he had 34 different starting lineups last year. And I can't believe it took this long after a slow start, after that starting unit he was using before with Dwight Powell and Hardaway in there.

You know, certainly hadn't looked great in any of the first five games they had together. So it's why it is a little surprising it took that long because 34 starting lineups last season in 75 games has to be pushing up there in terms of how many you might see possibly in one season. Well, and as far as this first game, just an unmitigated success as far as the look of that group.

And, you know, Maxie was in some foul trouble in this first game. So Tim Hardaway Jr. got a little more playing time than you might have expected given that layout. But basically those two groups with Luca, Josh Richardson, Dorian Finney Smith, Willie Colley Stein, and either Maxie or Hardaway was plus 27 and 13 minutes in this first game. I mean, a lot better, you know, better rebounding potential with that group. But I think the kind of elephant in the room is the Dwight Powell piece of this, Tim,

which I'm curious to get your take, you know, before his injury was a guy who was just kind of pretty reliably, a plus minus monster for them, you know, filled out a lot of lineups nicely with his ability to roll to the rim. What do you think has changed for him? Why was that not the case kind of in the early going of this season? well it's it's all the it's all the achilles it's the achilles injury he suffered in january and that he's um not even quite 12 months removed coming up on the the one year anniversary and and yeah he just he just doesn't look like he has the same burst the same bounds i was willing to be patient you know i think the the mavericks fan base at large

was freaking out about it as soon as the first preasons game ended and maybe even before that i thought you know, if, you know, you want a, you want a functional pal on this roster as the season goes along. If you can, you know, whatever manner you need to, you know, if you think you can get them there this season, whatever manner you decide to choose to, you know, get them back up to speed. If it's just game time, if that's all it's, it's going to take, you know, I think it's, it's worth putting him in the starting lineup for, for reasons like that. But once you get five games in and the starting lineup, just, it still isn't working. You're, I think they, you know, They started one in four and then, you know, two and, or sorry, one in three and then two and four.

So it was clear that they needed some sort of change. And Powell was the obvious one because he just doesn't look like he has the burst. He doesn't have the vertical spacing. You know, I think I've seen him through, I want to say he's completed one alley-oop. And, you know, he was one of the better, you know, upper echelon rim runners, you know, when healthy. But it's just not right there right now. You know, I don't know if he's as quick getting off the floor. All the typical things you see from an Achilles injury.

But it's just he's something that his number one strength was something very tied to athleticism. And that isn't to say in six months he can't get there because we've seen how Achilles often are more of an 18-month recovery process, even if you're cleared to play in 12. But yeah, I don't think he's there right now. And I think that, you know, he's going to play. He's still going to play. He's still going to have a role off the bench. I expect to see him in the starting lineup, just knowing how Carlo kind of operates. But I think for now, benching him in whatever way and bringing him as a.

as a bench rotation player is just a smarter move. And you know, you're setting him up for his success more so than than asking him to start games and guard, you know, Marcusol. He was guarding Anthony Davis. That didn't go very well.

Right, right, right. DeAndre Aiton, the first game was, was his matchup. That's not fair to him. I got some numbers.

Like, I'd hate to just blame Dwight Powell because he's a nice guy. But so in 98 minutes with Dwight Powell, Luca is minus eight. and 96th or without him, he's plus 21. Now, if you take the other four starters, Luca Hardaway, Finney Smith, Richardson, and 54 minutes with Powell, they're minus 12.

And 30 minutes without Powell, they're plus 22. I know this is a small sample size, but I don't care. Like, the number, Dwight is like a one-trick pony without his trick. He's just out there on the floor. So what you're saying is the extra weight Luca is carrying is actually Dwight Powell's deadweight. Wow.

Would you describe the horse you wrote on this summer as a one-trick pony? Well, okay, let me ask you this. How much of this is quietly a Wally-Callie-Steine revival? Do we think, like, some of this is just the trade-off of him playing above his head right now? Like, do we think he is a legit potential center in what they look like with KP back in there?

So he might be a better dissinger than we think. It's the perfect Wully Callie. Stein answer. I have been, you know, in talking to Mavericks people and, you know, looking at the numbers, his defensive numbers when he's on the floor, last season, small sample size, I think it was about 180 minutes, but their defensive rating was like five points better than their, you know, season defensive rating, the best out of any rotational player. That's repeated this season, even smaller sample size, of course.

he doesn't you know he makes when he messes up on defense it's very visible um you know it's it's him not boxing out or it's him just completely getting lost uh you know in in in space and or you know turning his head and just not realizing that is that his man's under the rim you know and those are those are the ones that make rick carlough you know that that's why he doesn't have hair anymore like these are the type of players that caused him to lose it uh over the course of his coaching career um and still not a player that he has much patience for. But when the numbers are good, you know, like maybe he is making more of an impact just because, like, his profile as a very, you know, one of the most athletic seven-footers

in the league, you know, it's a very Javel McGeeb's situation. Like they're almost, you know, if Colley's time, I picked up a ring or two in his career, they would have very similar, you know, kind of archetypes. Yeah, I mean, this is their type, right? Just skinny athletic room protectors who, you. probably will only be there for a year or two because Carlisle will just yell at them too much. This was kind of the right game to roll him out, though,

just in the sense that Christian Wood, for all of his strengths as a player, is not the guy who beats you with fundamentals. And so I think Willie Colley Stein had a chance in that matchup in a way that made sense. If you're going to make this kind of shift, and I mean, Rick Carlisle, he'll do that kind of whenever he wants regardless.

I don't know how much this would have factored into his decision in the first place. But I like the look of it in terms of if you're going to have a soft landing for Willie Colleystein in the starting lineup, this was it. I had a question for you. So we're talking about Carlisle. And I was thinking about it.

And I remember, this is back in the day a little bit, when the former Maverc franchise player, Chandler Parsons, came to preseason one year out of shape. And Rick went out of his way to mention it. I believe the next day Parsons took a shirtless photo of himself on Instagram. This is like Mav's 2014 content. And I just thought about that.

and was like, I don't want Rick really calling out Luca. Like, do you think Rick feels like he can do that? Like, what is their relationship like as coach and player? Did you write a think piece for Mavs Moneyball? Possibly. That was when we were in our peak co-worker days, if that's even the right word for it, for a SB Nation blog. But, uh, Carlisle has absolutely adjusted to Luca.

He is a, Luca is a young point guard. That makes mistakes. He is also a generational basketball talent, who is the future of the franchise. I think that there's been good writing on this, both by me and Tim McMahon and probably others, about how, you know, probably 30 to 40 games into Luca's rookie season, Carlisle really made a shift. And, you know, we saw that rookie season. they traded away all four other starters

Dennis Smith, West Matthews, Harrison Barnes, DeAndre Jordan and they made a shift saying, okay, Luca is the future. We're convinced at this point. But Carlo also had to get there. I think the front office was convinced before him. And over time, Carlo has softened, I guess, in ways, or just understands that he needs to treat Luca a bit differently. So yeah, last night he was the one.

defending, you know, and telling the, well, he thought January and instead it was December, he was the one telling, you know, giving that excuse, telling that story to the extent that it's true. I think it makes some logical sense, but the logic only applies in the sense that we're okay with Luca getting way out of shape and then getting back into it, you know, every off-season. So, so clearly you can quibble with that a bit. So, yeah, you know, I absolutely, Carlisle is someone who treats Luca differently and has to. And frankly, you know, his job is tied to it. You know, if it comes down to one or the other, it's pretty obvious which one he picks.

So, you know, of course he's adjusted. And I think that, you know, for now they have a, they have a plenty fine relationship. You know, I don't think there's any, any major issues there. And I think it shows in situations like this where, you know, he's not going to, he's not going to push a, post a shirtless selfie. You know, there's, he's learned from the Chandler Parsons Day. They might be both like white, you know, six, eight white dudes, but, you know, like, that's where the similarities end. Well, let's talk about Luca here because last night seemed like probably his first standout or just like what we expected for him performance.

At 33 point triple double. My question is the three point shooting. And I'm curious where you fall on this, Tim, because on the one hand, you could suggest, I think he's shooting 19% from three right now, which is like, significant difference from where he started before the game last night. On the one hand, you could suggest, like, well, he's a volume guy. This is just going to come with the territory. Probably won't ever be like a 40% three-point shooter. On the other hand, I do wonder, like, how much of it comes from the fact that he's just

so loosey-goosey with everything that the Luca experience requires you to, like, sit through him just like trying to make these ridiculous passes because he's going to make like 50% of them or just make these incredible plays. And so I guess long-term, is this a concern for him? Or is this just like something you live with? And in particular, probably to your earlier point, is this something that Carlisle has to live with? Yeah, there's like six different ideas that come to mind off, you know,

based off this question. A couple that we talked about. One is, I think a big adjustment that Carlisle made, Lucas Rookie season, was allowing that stepback shot. And I remember early in the season he had a quote about, you know, there are situations where it could be useful. and, you know, we are okay with it then, and there's a quote, like a month later, whereas, like, yeah, we like that shot.

We understand that, you know, even when sometimes it doesn't go down, you know, it's a net positive for the offense. And it is. I think it's better for Luca to shoot eight times, even if he's only going to hit two, then to really restrict him and turn defenses into thinking, okay, he's not a threat there. He's not going to shoot from there. You know, some of it is just that, you know, inherent gravity and, you know, to how players

like Marcus Smart have always had more gravity than their percentages really point to or would suggest just because players think of them as being a dangerous shooter and thus, you know, even subconsciously stick closer to him. So I definitely think that it is something he needs to keep doing, to keep shooting. Back to the part, you know, about Brea saying he hasn't really focused in yet, I do wonder if that's what it's going to take for him to, you know, ever kind of move past the, you know, this low 30s percent because he's going to work back up to the low 30s like i'm not worried about that maybe you know i think the worst case scenario was like a 29 percent um and and so he he i think over time like i think it probably will take more of a conscious you know fundamental mentality shift for

him um and who knows when that will come or or if or what exactly it's going to look like uh so so yeah i think that you know you even saw it in the game last night against against the rockets where in the opening, you know, probably six minutes, he made a point to take three good threes, you know, not the stepbacks, but where he's going around his screen, his defender cuts under, and he just steps into the three. He did that once. He also had a face-up shot, you know, where the defender was a little ways off him. And he was just like, I'm just going to shoot this.

I'm just going to rise up. I think he won't one of three. But, but like I saw those shots and I could tell that looks like a conscious effort from him. And then late in the game, he's shooting stepbacks again, you know, in clutch time. And it's just like, all right, where's that focus you had? Just a second, like, you know, like an hour ago. It seemed like you were focused and you're zoned in again. And now he's back to, you know, just tossing up a 30-footer because he starts feeling himself again.

So you just got to live with that. My favorite part of that answer is basically what Tim just said was Rick adjusted by letting Luca do whatever he wants. It's a good coaching adjustment when you have Luca Donge's on your team. Do whatever you want. It's just so wild, though, because, like, My impulse is to just, like, just berate him for taking some of these shots. But then you almost have to stop yourself.

So I wonder if this is like the Carlisle-E experience because you know, like, this is just part of it. And you know that there are so many ancillary benefits to doing this. I think my question, though, is long-term. Here's the thing. Do we notice it more because it's just like the one glaring flaw in what is an otherwise just like sterling package? Like you could look at his statistical line and just see that just like really obvious flaw there and you wonder like, hey, this seems like it could get better and he would just be a so much better player. But like, I almost wonder if it's intrinsic to like what he's doing

and like what that means for the rest of the team. And then what it means for like their ceiling overall. He was he was 31% on threes last season. If he had shot 35, that's one more made three a week just about. It's sticking up from like 2.9 makes to like 3.2 makes. So I think to some extent, yes, there is a, you know, we set benchmarks based off percentages. Like if a player is a 40% shooter, they're a good shooter. You know, obviously, and he has enough volume, but it does matter more. But yeah, I'm not, I don't think that he's not going to win an MVP because until he shoots 40%, if, you know, that's kind of what the question is.

I just love hearing about this cranky voice in the back of Justin's head telling him to berate Luca Dodgich for not being good enough. That's what I want to really dig into here. It's not in the back of my head. It's at the front of my head. Okay, so the number I've been watching with Luca is so this year, he's taken seven catch and shoot shots versus 51 off the jumper, off the dribble shots. And that's pretty much held constant his first three years in Dallas, is he never really

gets shots from other people because he's just holding the ball all the time. And I kind of wonder, it's like a two-fold thing. Like one, at some point, does he have to adjust? his game a little bit to give other guys more offensive freedom. And two, if he let other guys set him up, would that increase his percentages? Because traditionally, right, the catch-and-shoot shots can be easier to make than some of these step-back 30-footers that he loves. He doesn't actually shoot better on catch-and- shoot jumpers.

It's very funny. Yeah. I think it does go directly to the, you know, mindset consistency. see. But he's like a, I think his rookie season, he was a better pull-up shooter than a catch-and-shooter on threes. And it's been about even, you know, in his career ever since. I wish, I wish podcast could like one episode, like just 10 seconds of video, there was a moment in last, and I know we're having a bigger picture than the game against the Rockets, but there was a moment where he was wide open in the corner. Somebody running at him easily could have

taking the shot. He pumped faked, stepped out of it. And it's, it's like, he had an open corner three. This is, this is probably the first, he hasn't taken a shot in the corner all season. And it's just, it's, it's, yes, it is kind of infuriating. Like, like, like, I can, I can hear the, the voice at the top of your, at the front of your head, very you. Like, I know, I know, I know you're upset right now. Yes, I am. But, and, and I, I don't, I don't quite know how to explain it, but I don't know. It's just, it's, it's, it's, It's something, I do think you said it best. It's something we dwell on because there isn't much else you can right now. Yeah, it just also seems like it's there for him if he just takes it to your point.

And it's like, we all know like those are the easiest shots. That's where like the bump and the percentages come from. Like just take it. But the fact that he's like actively getting out of that situation and bailing is kind of the point. And I think it actually like speaks to a bigger picture conversation about the Mazz. it's just, so Janus is off the board for next season. They have all this cap space. Like, what is the ideal third guy there for assuming that KP is going to be there long term and be that second guy?

Like, what do they need? And then who is that? And does that player exist? I think that right now is my big existential question about this franchise. Because, like, the answer to it could, if we're being honest, like, just shape the NBA for the next couple years. Does that player exist as a question I also have. I don't know if. It's probably Kauai, I guess.

Kauai, yeah, that's like best case. Yeah. I mean, someone like Autoporter, a better than people think two-way player, there aren't a lot of great free agency names that are just perfect fits. I know that a player like Kimba Walker, who they tried to sign two summers ago or last summer, time isn't real. Like that would not have been the right fit for all the reasons, talking about that Luca right now is has knows how he wants to play and is very comfortable in that

way and I think you need a more gradual process to push him to do things like give the ball up to other players and you know allow them to pass him the ball when he's open in the corner and actually shoot that three instead of just triple out and say all right I have the ball again we're I am now creating offense again you know he's just I do think that is you know a big question is is how comfortable and how much you can tweak his play style um If you were to get in a third star, I think that Kimball Walker would have been probably too much too soon.

Just to use an example of a player, they're very, very close to signing. So yeah, is there a name out there that I'm not thinking of? I mean, the name is Ola Depot. He's probably the biggest name that's going to be out there next summer. Does he make sense, though? Yeah, even then, like, Victor's a good defender,

but he's a good off-ball defender. Like, he's a good help roving defender. What the MAVs need is someone who's really versatile who can guard basically 2, 3, 4, so they can move Luca rounds, they can do what they need to do defensively. You hope that KP can be the rim protector that you need and he'll be on the floor enough to be that.

But to find a guy who's that kind of defensive versatility, who also is good off the ball so that Luca can have it, but also can run a pick and roll if the ball swings his way, can do secondary action. That's a very small list of guys, and they all cost a lot of money, probably more than the MAZ will be able to acquire. Is Richardson not enough of that type of player for you, Rob?

I think he gets at it. And that's why that addition is exciting, is he gets at those ideas, but you lose a little bit of the defensive range in terms of guarding the threes and four types that you might need to down the line. Like, Richardson's a really good one and two defender. And then pick and roll-wise,

I think we saw some of his warts in Philadelphia, as far as that goes. It looked really clean doing that kind of stuff in Miami. And then Philly, when things got jammed up a little bit, when we kind of met a first level of resistance, wasn't a successful running pick and roll doing stuff off the dribble for himself. So we'll see if the spacing in Dallas

can eventually open up that side of his game again. But I think he's a good answer for now. I don't know if he's the piece that unlocks the future contending Mavs per se. Well, and when you say spacing, I think that gets back to the KP discussion, which I don't think we can always keep over that part of the score number three.

I'll start with number two. Tim, you're pretty plugged in Dallas. What's the level of concern about KP's just health? I mean, I didn't tell she was really scary because it came out of nowhere. like in the middle of that playoff series, all of a sudden, no his knee is gone.

He's out for the season. Yeah, the injury itself in a vacuum is not concerning. He had another, and this one, I do believe, he expected the season to come back in January and actually delayed the surgery that he ended up undergoing,

which was a meniscus repair, a very common known injury that usually just takes an off-season. And so that specific injury, and especially because they say it was a contact injury suffered. It's an injury he played through. He suffered in game one.

He wasn't ruled out until game four. So all of these circumstances, everything lines up that that specific injury is not super concerning. And you know, had he had you know, had he known when the season would return, he would probably be back now. He probably would have had the surgery sooner.

Obviously, there's concern overall, big picture, you know, for a player to continue to have knee injuries even if they're relatively minor like the meniscus is is not a great thing for a 7-3 player he is the

you know the most you know out of all the 7-3s in NBA history you know none have ever played like him in the modern era they don't have the same you know just movement like just players move more they cover more space they cover more ground

there aren't a lot of examples of a you know fluid athlete like Porzingis is. And so there's not like a game, you know, a game plan moving forward to exactly how to, you know, prevent this necessarily.

Certainly a lot of doctors have a lot of ideas and he's not totally dissimilar to players in the past. But, you know, just the unicorn thing is, you know, works both ways, I guess is what I'm saying. You know,

there is, you know, the fact that he is so unique and different, uh, could also just mean that he is, you know, uniquely suited or prone to just constant injuries. And that's what we've seen so far.

Yeah, it's interesting because the Janus thing almost washed away any sort of hope that there would be just an easy answer to this question that's looming over them. Because on the one hand, like we're saying, there isn't just an obvious free agent in next year's market that makes a ton of sense. You just plug and play them. And all of a sudden, you're a title contender, your best team in the web. and if KP isn't healthy, and at the very least it seems like the health injuries are going to loom over him for probably the rest of his career, like, do you have that big piece in order to go out and trade for that next guy? Like Bradley Beale perhaps is someone who is a close approximation to the guy we're talking about.

Maybe he doesn't defend bigger guys, but can shoot secondary playmaker gives you everything you probably want next to Luca for the most part. But like, how do you trade for him unless you get rid of every first round pick in your cupboard and get into the, questions of like how much, how many picks you can give up because of the next picks. Yeah, they've already given up too for KP. Right. And then like, what is, what are you giving up? Like, who are you giving up? Are any of the young guys interesting to the other teams? And I look at the Ross and it's like, I mean, Josh Richardson, but he's on expiring KP's like he is the guy. And so I don't know, it's a complicated question. It seems like this situation, in some ways it's cut and dry. Luke is amazing. They're going to be

great. But to get to the next level is a little bit more complicated than I think you would like it to be at this stage. Yeah, to me, it's all about KP. Because I thought they played really well together last season. I was very impressed with how KP, because KP in New York was very much like in Carmelos shadow. I'm going to hold the ball, Jack, mid-range jumpers. But in Dallas, he really became this like 7-3-2 guard almost,

where he was taking seven-threes a game. And when he was on shooting, it was like automatic. And to me, if that's the player they've got to have, and I just don't know how confident you can be in that. But if he's there, then they've really got it. awesome. Well, and that's why there's a version of this team where Luca takes these next steps we've been talking about, taking the offseason more seriously, upping his percentages, just even a

marginal amount, KP delivers up to the player we've seen and potentially even better. A version of that team could be competing for titles pretty easily, you know, with an auto porter level addition more so than a Kauai Leonard level addition. You know, like there's a range of opportunity here that Luca gives you just by being as good as he has, and you see the model, basically in Milwaukee with Janus and with some of these other teams that are more one superstar driven as well. Like you can do that.

It's just a little more difficult, you know, depending on the matchups you hit along the way. I think that's the hope. I actually wrote an article, which was not well received in a fun way, that I didn't want Janus. Oh, I remember that. That was ridiculous. That was a ridiculous article. I had fun with it.

I had fun with it. But it's, Janus was the, okay, this is, you know, this is KD going to. to the warriors. I guess just the slightest step below that. But I guess in my mind, there's no way that wouldn't work. It lost all intrigue in terms of how would it work. You know,

was there a chance of failure, et cetera, et cetera. Because those two are, you know, Luca and Janice alone are perfect fits. And as long as KP is healthy, you know,

he is, you know, the perfect third compliment. I know super teams, you know, sometimes struggle more than you expect. But then they end up winning anyway. Like, you know, sure, Miami took a while to come together, but they were in the finals four times after that.

So I don't know. I thought that Janus, you know, as much as it would absolutely make sense from a basketball perspective, and of course the Dallas front office should want to sign him. I didn't, you know, from a basketball fit perspective or basketball entry perspective, I didn't find it terribly interesting, you know, on the court, off the court. It would have been fascinating. So, so, yeah. And I guess the other reason is, you know, I think Luca and KP alone are good enough.

You probably still need one more player. But if you don't have a third star, quote unquote, you know, it's a league of star duos right now. That's where everything has shifted. And I see that to some if Prasinkas can stay healthy as being good enough, you know, maybe with one more piece around them. But the big question is injury. And the saying around the league is that, you know, your third star is insurance for one of them getting hurt. You know, that's why you have trios.

We saw it with Oklahoma City year after year after year after year after they went in 2012. And so, you know, especially with one of these two stars that might be good enough if he's healthy, you know, with all these injury concerns he has, you know, that was the actual reason to go get a, you know, someone who is a proper third, quote unquote, star. So, yeah, it's a weird question. You know, you can talk in circles all day about it, I feel like. Yeah, that's why we have three Dallas representatives on this podcast, not just two right now. We're talking in triangles today. Who's getting injured? Oh, it's definitely jokes.

I mean, did you not hear the horse discussion? That horse just straight kicks them off. All right. Tim, thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, happy to be one point of a wonderful triangle. Nice. There you go. All right, we're going to take a quick break.

When we come back, we're going to talk about some other contending teams. All right, we're back in a much more intimate setting between just the non-Dalys big three here. We're going to talk about some other contending teams. Basically, do we believe in some expected contenders based on the early results? We're going to talk Sixers, Clippers, Nets, and Bucks. But first, I want to talk about the unexpected contender, just briefly because they deserve. our attention. The New York Knicks are four and three. And I keep waiting to have a full-blown discussion about them on this podcast because I just assume things are going

to crater, especially as Julius Randall flirts with more and more triple doubles. You just assume that this is going to run out eventually. But here they are and the internet is a buzz about them. We won't talk about it too much, but do you guys have any thoughts about the Renaissance that is happening in New York? My first thought is one of the top 10 defenses in the league right now is manned by Julius Randall, Reggie Bullock, Alfred Payton, and yes, Mitchell Robinson doing all the great and sometimes infuriating things that Mitchell Robinson does, and RJ Barrett, who, you know, a young player who really hasn't figured out how to defend yet, I have no idea how this is happening.

Like put the Julius Randall stuff in its own box off to the side of just incomprehensibility of the lines he's been putting up. But how is this team as good defensively as it is? Tibbs, baby. It's all Tibbs magic. That's the only answer. Charks, what do you think? Are you believing in the next?

I will say this. Julius Randall's been waiting a long time to have a team built around him. No one's had the courage to do it until Tom Tibido said, I'm going to play Julius 38 minutes a game, give him career high in shots, points, assists.

He's got the ball. It's a Julius Randall show. I guess there's a new franchise player in New York. We'll see how it turns out for them. I mean, I'll also say this. in these dark times, there's something legitimately heartwarming about the look on Tom Tivodeau's face whenever he's asked about Emmanuel quickly in a press conference. It's great.

It really is a beautiful thing. I mean, yeah, this feels like the typical Tibbs experience. So as I look at the box score here, Julius Randall played 43 minutes last night. RJ Barrett, the young precocious sophomore NBA player, played 44 minutes last night. And they played eight guys total. although one of them was the rookie Emmanuel quickly. So perhaps there is some light there. There is

hope on the horizon, but I don't know. If they're still blowing teams out by this time next week, we'll talk about it then. On to a team that nobody ever talks about the Philadelphia 76ers. So, I've been watching a lot of the Sixers lately.

They're six and one now after last night's went over the Hornets. And they look great. Like, the defensive numbers are off the charts. Daryl Morey is tweeting at the bloggers who are talking about those defensive numbers. He's talking about Reese's peanut buttercups. He's like, he is just living it up. Wait, who is he tweeting at? I don't, who is, yeah, who's he, who's he, who's he shot now? So, so Bodnar was tweeting about their defensive numbers last night. And Mori's like,

wait, well, did you see, did you see their net rating when it's, uh, the big three? No, he called them the holy trinity of Benjo in, in Tobias Harris. Holy Trinity. Holy Trinity. I mean, honestly, pretty accurate considering to Tobias Harris has elevated to a higher plane all of a sudden? He has. And I mean, M. Bid is like just passing out of double teams and it just looks beautiful. Like the spacing is real, whether it's the shooting or the or the NBA double teams. But I look at this team and I can't help but think, man, wouldn't this team just be infinitely

better with James Hardin instead of Ben Simmons? Like, this is a nice start. I think most of it is real. I think the Sixers are going to be a good team. They definitely look more organized. But like, instead of Ben using all that beautiful lush space in order to just dribble into the paint and then make just like this twisting jump pass

or just to miss a point-blank layup because he doesn't want to get followed or people are just waiting for him in order to draw a charge. Like, wouldn't it be better if Hardin was, you know, just jacking up a three-pointer or passing to a wide-open guy for a three-pointer? I don't know. you just got done talking about their off the charts defensive numbers and your solution to that is trading away their second best defender for James Harden as if as if that's just going to hold

like like Ben Simmons the I mean obviously that's always going to be a work in progress but right now the Sixers are top five in transition frequency and their top five in posto frequency like they are they are juggling that as well as you're going to juggle it in terms of serving what both of those guys do well and I think a lot of that a lot of that comes down to the guys they brought in it's Seth Curry, it's Danny Green. It's, you know, even Tyrese coming off the bench and giving them good minutes. Like, they're finding the rotation guys they need

to play Simmons and Embed effectively together. I think they're walking that line pretty well, well enough where I would think long and hard about a hard and train. I mean, obviously, that's a difficult conversation to start with, but Ben Simmons is really good, and I'm not sure I'm ready to punt on that just yet. I think before we get too carried away,

I'm going to read you their schedule, and you tell me who the best team they've played is. Wizards, Nix, Cavs, Raptors, magic. Well, you said Nix, right? Can we just stop? Is it the Nix? I mean, it might actually be the Nix,

like if we're being serious, right? Of that seven team. I mean, they're not exactly really pushing themselves right now against the league competition. So let's see what it looks like before we get too carried away. Yeah, this is kind of the flip side of these baseball theories that I kept hearing all about

like people were excited about because, hey, maybe rivalries will like spring up here, it seems like most of the time, A, the stars don't play in both games. And B, it's just like you could just load up on wins early if you just happen to have like the Hornets back to back or the Wizards back to back. And like the results are almost tougher to really parse through right now because so many teams are playing bad teams back to back to back, if that makes sense. There's definitely some of that happening. But there's also like I like the adjustment that's happening in some of those series too. You know, new starters into the lineup for that second

game, like get different strategies, you know, a little more zone in the follow-up. Like, there is a little bit of that going on that makes it kind of nice. They can swing, you know, Milwaukee setting a record for hitting threes in a game against the heat in one game to the heat edging out a win in game, too. Like, I really do kind of like that dynamic. I think it's something that would be great for the regular season long term. And certainly the travel benefits are great for what they are. Mm-hmm.

Okay. So back to the Sixers here. I think Rob brings up a very good point. I think the trade-off with Hardin is obviously on the defense event. But then I guess the question is in the playoffs, which is all that matters for this team. Are we ultimately going to crash headfirst, perhaps Ben Simmons-style, into the same issues that they've had in the past if they don't fix this one offensive quirk to them? Because I could just see teams just like slinking back and then all of a sudden Embed maybe wants his post touches,

but he's getting swarmed, and all of a sudden this becomes a potter keg yet again. Well, it seems like the change, I don't know if it's like a conscious change, but Ben is shooting less and Tobias is shooting more efficiently. I just wonder, can that hold up over the season? I don't know. Like Tobias is shooting lights out right now. I mean, he was not shooting in the playoffs last year, 47% from three. I do wonder if like maybe that's some of the, that's the Doc Rivers effect maybe because he had his best year for ever's career in LA with Doc Rivers. So maybe that was like the hidden benefit of the dock signing was improving Harris a little bit.

If Harris can play this well, I just after the last two playoffs, I really can't believe he will against the lead competition at this point. Remember we were talking about this a couple weeks ago, even in the playoffs? And I was saying, like, why does everyone keep thinking that Tobias Harris is just like sunk costs? Like, there was a time where we were talking about his contract as if he was on par with Al Horford. And while I get that Harris probably will never live up to the amount he makes, like he's actually a. a useful player who could be like a significant contributor. And like maybe this is just a hot streak. I think he was Eastern Conference player of the week for the week that just happened.

On the other hand, like maybe this is just a product of having space and not being crowded constantly when like, you know, his main value is going to be to stretch the floor and just be like a big body on defense. I don't know. It's just I think people jumped way too far on that conversation. I'm glad that at the very least there are indications that it's balanced out. Well, there's no doubt that as a. collective media body, we are very bad at extricating players from their contracts.

And not talking about it. But I mean, what's going on with Tobias is to me, that's the case for real Sixers optimism. If Tobias Harris can be that not only that effective shooting, but that decisive, and then you are also getting all these other contributions from across the board that goes back to what you mentioned off the top, Justin, which is, you know, Joe L. and B. passing well out of the post a little bit more effectively, a little more cleanly. when you're getting Ben Simmons shifting around defensively

so that Tobias doesn't have to guard the problematic matchup. So Seth Curry doesn't have to guard point guards if you don't want him to on a given night. There's just a lot to like in the balance of this team right now. And they're missing a couple of bench guys too

in terms of Mike Scott and Furcon and Korkmaz too who not world beaters exactly, but we'll round out your rotation when you get back, give you another couple options off the bench. This looks like a really good team to me. And it starts, it kind of starts and ends with the defense,

but if you can just get Joelle bowling people over, you know, smaller bigs, basically anyone you put in front of him, Ben doing his thing, Tobias hitting lots of threes. This is a great recipe so far. I think that's a good point about balance, especially if you've got Ben Tobias, Seth. And I personally would do the Ben for Hardin trade, but I do kind of seem like this roster is build more for Ben Simmons. Because like Rob was saying, if you're going to play Seth Curry, James Hardin, Tobias Harris, you're going to need two Joelle Embeds to cover for those guys in the big. time playoff series. That's not a lot of defense. Well, what if PJ Tucker comes along with him? Probably not the ideal guy in order for what they would need if you make that trade. But like, I don't know, I think they could paper together. I just feel like what they're benefiting from only, especially on offense specifically,

only becomes better with more space and with what Hardin would provide. I wouldn't Joel M.B. be more of a monster down low when he just has one guy in order to be seen and he doesn't have to. be passing out of these double teams. It's just a one-on-one situation. Wouldn't Harris be better if he's just wide open catch and shoot opportunities? I mean, Danny Green,

how long can we count on him and Seth Curry to just shoot at the clip that they are? And you would want to provide them with more open shots? I don't know. Maybe it comes down to the fact that I'm just like overrating what Joe could do as just like a stopper to clean up for Hardin on the other end. But I don't know, man.

It's hard not to look at this team and be like, they could be a lot better than even what they have been thus far. I think in terms of the hardened piece of this, James Hardin's an unbelievable player, but there's a redundancy with him and Embed just in terms of possession usage that would be a problem too. You're kind of trading one problem for another,

and the fact that James Hardin is an unbelievable isolation and pick and roll player, Joel Embed, not actually that good of a role man. You know, like he wants the ball on the block, maybe duck in, maybe get some spot-ups for threes and do his thing out there, but they're not a natural fit. They're both unbelievable talents, but then you're trading two very talented players in a difficult situation for two other very talented players in a slightly different situation. I don't know that I'm

running into that. That is the funny thing about this whole conversation, because if you look at it, isn't Ben Simmons the better fit with James Hardin than Joelle Embed? Right? Because then you have the defensive. Ben Simmons is the defensive small ball five. He's more of the Draymond green to James Hardin than Ambide. And I wonder with Simmons, do you think this is more who he is in terms of taking fewer shots. Because the more I watch him, the more I think maybe he's never going to be a big time score. Maybe he's just a better distributor. He doesn't really score the rim that well for a guy because you kind of think in your head, oh, he's just yonness. He can't shoot and get to the rim. But he doesn't have great touch on the basket. He's just not really a big time score like that.

Like, maybe that makes more sense for his game anyways. He's a lamella ball with an equinox subscription. I don't understand any piece of that comparison. Where do you get an equinox for him? Do your thing, barrier. Yeah, I guess. I mean, well, so that's that's one question. Perhaps like the one thing that they haven't really explored here in the early going as they like worked through what Daryl Morey has suggested is like this trial period where he wants to see all these guys work together is they really haven't changed the offense much.

And like, yeah, Joel NB. doesn't run a lot of pick and rolls. Maybe he isn't ultimately like as effective in that role. But like they could try more. And I do wonder as they get more and more into the season, maybe as they have more practice. time. We get to see that with this current group. And who's to say that isn't their ultimate, like, Embed's an ultimate, like, trajectory, where, like, he will be in these plays more, like, prominently going forward. And then all of a sudden, maybe Hardin is better in that role, too.

But who's the pick and roll guard, though, to run more pick and roles with Joel Embed on this roster? Yeah, it probably is Seth. Yeah, Seth. But then, yeah, maybe Simmons isn't optimized in that situation. But if you had James Harden, is he optimized in this situation? I don't know. Things are going well, but I could see signs on the horizon where maybe this all is just like the schedule, as we're saying. So wait, that's, back to a bigger question.

Do we believe in the early results? I would say I believe in them being better, but I don't believe in them being best in the east better as currently constructed. That's fair. Can you pick you make the finals though, Justin, before the season? The Sixers? Yeah, but now I have actual results in front of me.

I'm a man of data. So then you don't believe. So then compared to where your belief was before, now you have less belief after what you're saying. I change my beliefs all the time. That's what I do here. Build your house on a rock, Justin. The key is for people not to know what you're doing,

to not stand out so much that you could change depending on the way the wind blows. You're right. No, I think that they can be very good. I think that, but I think there is a way for them to be even better. All right, let's move on to the Clippers. Charks, you wrote about them the other day, but they're five and two, and things seem to be going well under the Tailu regime here. Have you guys ever seen the West Anderson American Express commercial from a few years ago?

And he's just like making decisions on the fly. And someone like asked him what gun he would like. He's like, can we have this one with a bayonet? I feel like that is Ty Lou going through this clipper season thus far, where he's just like making all of these easy decisions quickly, and they're all paying off here. Charks, you wrote about this. I'm basically just cribbing from your article.

So they're diminishing the roles of Lou Williams and Pat Bev, and Paul George seems to be benefiting as a result of that. First of all, who's the bayonet in this metaphor? Zubotch. Okay. Naturally. Yeah, so in the article, I think, yeah, it's kind of two main things. I think one, they made some really smart kind of under the radar acquisitions. So they brought in Serge Abaka.

He's been great as a stretch five. And then Nick Batum's hit that Boris D.L. thing where after three or four years in Charlotte, he remembered he can play basketball still. He's on a contender. And you're like, wait, Nick Batum is guarding three positions. He's like running point forward. he's knocking down three. This guy can do a lot of things.

This is kind of incredible. That's one end of it. And the other is what you're talking about where it's like, it's pretty clear look at their numbers. Tai Liu said, all you guys who didn't like Paul and PG and Kauai, like I don't care about you.

Like this is how it's going to be. I mean, to move Lou Williams from number two and touches to number six, that's a really bold like statement of intent. Like here's a war about now. If you don't like it, you can join Montres and the Lakers. I don't care.

Like this is the new way. we're doing things. And it seems to have worked like, this is how we're going to do it. There are a new lineup with George, so they go, Beverly, George, Kawhi, Batum, Serge. They've been the smoking people.

And that, to me, seems fairly sustainable. I mean, earlier when we were making this podcast in a previous week, I was shamed for trying to pick Serge Abaka as one of the most interesting players in the NBA this season. I'd like to give this opportunity to the two of you to apologize for that.

That was Justin. That was mostly Justin. I don't mean to love you into this, John. It's mostly Justin's fault. Yeah. Listen, I think it is all working now. Sergei Baca seems like a lovely man who seems like a profound contribution to this Clippers team. My question is, how long is that lineup that Charks mentioned going to be available?

Because if you followed Nick Batum over the past his entire career, which I wouldn't be mad if you didn't take note of him in Charlotte over the past couple of years, like he's going to be. injured. You played 23 games last year, and it's just, it's going to come eventually. And I think the one thing that worries me is if we're saying this hinges on Nick Batum, like, that seems a little bit more shaky ground than you'd like it to be. Well, that's where you would hope that by scaling back guys like Lou Williams, that when the time comes and they're needed on a given night, you can scale them back up for more minutes, for more touches, for more opportunities. You hope that that's going to be there when you need it. The tricky part is that Luke Conard, you know, the $64 million man is off to a kind of unremarkable start there too, and you would hope he would be in that

stable as well of guys you can call on when those opportunities come. I don't know how reliable either of those guys are going to be. I mean, Lou Will has said all the right things so far in terms of his role. He's been a good sport about it, but that's a tough situation to go from the level of involvement he had before to, you know, shooting eight times a game. Like, you know, it's just not, it's not really his style. I wouldn't say, like, I think also Marcus Morris, right? He's kind of the guy who hasn't played for them yet. He gives you another six, eight, versatile forward, garmaltal position, spread the floor a little bit. And I think that will kind of balance out. And to Rob's point, I would not be sort of Lou Will is not here at the deadline. That would not

surprise me at all if he ends up. I think once you pay Luke Conard all that money, it kind of made Lou Will it's like, well, what's he doing? Also, you're paying Luke Knard like double Lou Will salary. That's just tough to begin with. Well, I mean, the Morris question is an interesting one, because he's the wild guard in this scenario. He hasn't played yet. And I do wonder, like, if Nick Batum just, like, takes over that role, where does Morris fit in? Are you bringing him in off the bench?

Is he going to be okay with that? I guess you could play bigger lineups where you're not playing Bev as much and you just have, like, a bunch of rangy death lineup style guys out there. But I almost feel like Batum and Morris are just, like, the extremes of, like, a similar type of player. And I almost feel like Batoom's calm, easygoing, I will plug in and do whatever you guys need me to do on this team

style is exactly what they need. Whereas Morris jacking up shots, doing weird things in playoffs, stepping on people, etc. is what they don't need. And I wonder if he throws off the calibration as soon as he gets back in there. And what do you do if he does?

I'm not too worried about it just in the sense that they do have those pieces that they can move around And ultimately, when playoff time comes, a lot of these problems will resolve itself. You're just not going to play, whether Luzda on the team or Luke Kinnard or Reggie Jackson, Marcus Morris, if it comes to that, like the core guys are going to play a lot. And you're really relying, no matter how you shake it out, Paul George and Quay Leonard have to be healthy in the end. They have to be really, really good.

And you're going to lean pretty heavily on Abaka, on Zubots, like a lot of these supplementary guys that aren't quite in this question-mark space that we've been kind of hovering around. Because as we've seen, if Kauai is out for a game, this is a team that can lose by 50 points. They have that kind of potential in them as well. So it's almost a moot point to me,

the Marcus Morrises of the world. They're going to be helpful in some games, not helpful in others, but I'm not too concerned about that piece of the rotation, I don't think. To me, I like what Justin said, I'm looking at it like, if I could close a game

with Paul George, Nick Batum, Kauai, Marcus Morris, Serge Abaka, I can put PG on the point guard. I can have five, six, eight guys who can all shoot threes and all that have had multi-positions. I've got a lot of playmaking. That is an absolutely disgusting lineup

that I would be scared to pull up against. That is not a joke at all. We should give a moment to Paul George, too, who is in kind of an unstoppable zone, in that Kauai space of, I don't even know what you're supposed to do when he's shooting like this, just because of his range and the way he moves

and the way he's been able to shoot, that's a tough cover for anybody if he's going to be playing like this. And I talked about this in my article yesterday and just one thing I remember from the MAV series was that there were all these times where he's struggling to shoot. It's like, well, then just put him in a pick and roll

with Luca. Like, don't make those too complicated. You can just space the floor and get him to attack a weak defender. And that's what Thai Liu is doing a lot. So they played the sun, I guess it was Sunday night. And it was like, oh, we'll put Paul George in pick and roll against Dario Sarich

or against Langston Galloway. And I think that is where you make his life easier. Because sometimes with Paul George, he can make the most ridiculous shots, right? Come around a screen, catch a 30 feet, like Clay Thompson shots. But if he's not making them,

he can also make easier shots. Let's make his life easier. And that's what's happened this season. Paul George playing like an All-Star. Imagine that. All right, let's move on to the Brooklyn Nets. They are now three and four after what was just a barnstorming

start to this K-Dade. Kyrie era. Things are getting a little dicey here because people keep dropping like flies. Spencer Dinwiddie is out for the season. It doesn't seem like he's going to come back anytime soon. Even before, so Katie has now has to sit out

seven days, which I think equates the four games because of just contact tracing and quarantine and all that stuff. And even before that he and Kyrie were sitting out games. You'd expect that to continue, especially as we mentioned, with back-to-backs, a thing in the NBA now. How are we feeling about this team now? Because I think all of the concerns that I think people were worried about coming into the season or starting to show

their head. Not only what I just mentioned with just like absences, but also defense, turnovers, rebounding. Are we saying that this team has enough talent on hand to overcome that? Is this early starts? Rob, where are you on the Nets? I would say of this group of teams we're talking about here with the same. Sixers and the Clippers and we're going to get into the bucks a little bit too. The Nets are the team that I'm worried about the most. And that's saying something considering those other three teams flamed out in pretty spectacular fashion in the playoffs.

So I think the Nets, I don't want to step on it too much because I want to write about this a little bit, but there are minutes without Katie and Kyrie on the floor and some of that, as you mentioned, Justin, is manufactured by them sitting those guys for certain games. You're kind of putting a lot of those reserves in tough situations. But they're getting crushed. and you know, Steve Nash, Steve Nash has tried to play those guys together

as much as possible. The Nets to this point have played a third of their minutes with neither guy on the floor and have just gotten obliterated during that time. That has to change. This is a team that, you know, as we've talked about on this podcast, has a lot of depth,

but I don't know if that's depth that coalesces in a way that can carry units, that can carry quarters, that can build runs. There's just, there's a little something missing and some of it may come from the fact

that you're kind of starting DeAndre Jordan, for whatever reason when Jared Allen's your actual starter, which makes your bench look a little bit better than it is. And now you're throwing TLC into the starting lineup, who might be able to fill out that group. But again, your starting five isn't as roundly solid as you might have liked it to be with Dinwiddie in there.

So I worry about the nets a little bit. And it's not just the defense. It's just about their ability to sustain 48 minutes of good play, depending on how they want to manage the rotations with Katie and Kyrie. But isn't that an obvious fix at some point, if they're getting killed in those non-Kady Kyrie minutes to just stagger them, right? That's like a simple,

maybe that's simple, but that's a tweak you could make pretty easily. It helps for sure, but it depends on those two guys and what they want. That's the thing is their chemistry together is great. They want to play together

and they came there to play together and whether they have the pull to basically say, like, look, we want to be on the floor together as much as possible or not. An interesting political capital situation in Brooklyn already developing.

But that makes to me, I almost feel like it's better they're struggling, right? Because you know what they don't want, to do to start out like five and ten and again i mean the amount of negative publicity for two guys who read and watch a lot of tv that's going to wear on them a lot and there's a lot of stuff they're doing it's like like you're saying it's just not ideal like starring the andre jordan we were talking

about dwight powell in the last segment i kind of feel like dionre is a bigger dwight powell now where he doesn't really run to the rim anymore he's a little older so what does he do out there He's not shooting, obviously. He's not very skilled. He doesn't move much. He gives those high fives with the back of his hand. He does, do those. Those are cool.

But so to me, though, like, if they're going to be playing badly, they've got to stop running bits, right? Like, Katie and Kerry are running a lot of bits right now. We've got to play our friend at the center. We've got to play together. And the bits work if you're winning games, but if you're not winning games, it's a pretty easy fix. Like, we've got to stop running bits.

Yeah, I mean, I guess the big question with them is all of this fixable. Like you're saying, is this an inevitable tweet to what they're doing where they just realize that DJ just can't be out there for these significant minutes that they have to go with Jared Allen? Is Kyrie and Katie finally get frustrated enough with losing? Do they go on a three-game skid? And all of a sudden, it's like, all right, fuck it. We got to go back to what works. And DJ, I'm sorry, but, like, we'll, like, go on an island vacation with you after the season. Like, that seems inevitable here.

I think my big question with them is, to Rob's point about, like, just a minutes without. Katie and Kyrie, they're kind of all designed in order to empower Keros Lavert into being this super six man, this Mono Genobley type. And if he's not going to be that, then what is he on this team? Because I think the Dinwiddie injury opens that space in the starting lineup. And I don't think it's in the best interest for the Nets for him to be that guy that fills in there. I kind of like this role that Nash is carved out for him.

But if he can't play that, what is he? And does it become more of a situation because he's a guy who just signed a guy. an extension wants to be a bigger deal than he actually is. And is this going to become more messy as the season goes along? I mean, we've talked about him on this pod in terms of having some great singular performances. Like, he has those games in it, but you look over the course of the season so far and he's shooting 37%. Like, that's not going to cut it if you're in that rule. If you're carrying a second unit, especially to the degree that they need him to,

and if they're going to selectively choose to rest KD and Kyrie for games, you got to be better than that. And that's where you start kicking up the dust on whether it's a James Harden conversation, whether it's trading him for somebody else. You don't want to ship out Keras Lavert too soon and jump to any conclusions there. But when we're talking about the depth of this team and how it could be reimagined, the trade piece of it has to come up. It does seem like to me watching him. It feels like he's been forcing it a lot. It's almost like now that he's not starting. He's like, I've got to prove myself.

I got to get all my shots up. Doesn't he always know? I don't know, but it's just not going in. No, I guess he's a difference. Yeah. I mean, he's always been kind of a forcing it player to me, but sometimes in a good way. Yeah.

This is why I think they're going to feel the Dinwiddie loss, maybe more than people assume. I think people see like, oh, he was, you know, the third guy on that starting lineup. He was like their fourth point guard in a pretty crowded back court. They just don't have that buffer zone there where I feel like if Dinwiddie was there

to maybe play more minutes with Caras, like maybe there would have been a little bit more of just a margin for error or when Kyrie wants to sit, hey, then we have Dinwiddie to go out there and to carry some of the load. I mean, this is a guy who pretty much was the star of their team for large stretches last season.

I do like it long. I do long term, I think they probably would have been better off putting more of a 3 and D guy in his spot in the starting lineup. Like even when they were rolling, I felt like that was probably going to be the inevitable conclusion of like how they stacker things.

But like, I don't don't know if TLC is that guy and like I look at up and down the roster they have all these options and like I don't know who it is like Prince just seems like he just never is getting it Bruce Brown like maybe he ultimately becomes the guy Landry Schammett just like doesn't know how to shoot anymore and I do wonder if like even as bad as Luke Conard is like maybe the clippers pulled the wool over the net's eyes with that one I don't know maybe made a small sample but there are a lot of little things that are starting to add up here I think this is where you see we're going to need Steve Nash to earn whatever it is that he makes.

This is a coach's job is to find these kind of answers, is to go through your bench, make these adjustments, then kind of react quickly to those adjustments and figure out what's working and what's not, to move around and pieces of your rotation. That's where it's going to be important, right? Whether it's Shamit or TLC, whoever it is on the bench, you need your coach to find that answer. And I think with Dinwiddie, now that I think about it, I wish you talked about Dinwiddie with the Mavs, because he'll be a free agent in the summer.

That actually kind of makes sense to me as him and maybe in Dallas, but that's a different conversation. Well, I think that distinction, though, as far as the coaching is important, though, Charks, which is this is not to me a doom and gloom kind of situation. This is, it's time to go to work. Like, now we have to really do the work of going through a regular season and figure this shit out.

Yeah. Before transitioning to another coach who is known for figuring the shit out, do you believe in the Nets? I'm going to say yes. Sure. Yeah, I think ultimately they get there. But again, we have some problems to solve. They're just too talented.

Yeah. You know, like I just look up and down the east and I just see, I see Kyrie and Kady on paper. I'm just like, man, it's just, if they're firing in all cylinders, I don't see how another team like really puts up much of a fight there. But I guess this would be the team to do it, Milwaukee Bucks. So I don't know what to do with the Bucks these days, because on the one hand, they're just like getting blown out by the Knicks,

and then they're just setting a record for threes made. And all of a sudden, you look at the net rating leaderboard, and they're right there at the top again, and just look at all bucks. But the big question with this team is the ultimate one, which is just like what this new construction looks like in the playoffs. And so I kind of find myself in a shrug situation where I don't believe in them simply because of what happened before.

But I'm not sure because, like, the more. more they have these good results, I'm like, God damn, if they could just, like, not run into a wall in the playoffs, this would be an incredible team. Charks, where are you on the box right now? I mean, I think Drew's been amazing. I've loved to see Drew Middleton and Janus had been like everything you expect. But then you just watch some of their bench lineups. I was watching the game this morning from last night, the Pistons game. And there was one point where they were playing DJ Augustine, Bryn Forbes, and the Vincenzo. and I guess he's at the 3 at 6'2 and it was just like very deeply depressing

I was like this is not an NBA lineup you're running out here right now and like I'm watching Thanasas play actual minutes and I'm like what is he even doing out there like what it that part is very concerning to me just the bench it's really bad there's been a lot more than I was expecting to watch this season and not just like throwing him out there

for garbage time as John said playing the rotation oh hey go guard Goron Dragich full court for this this second quarter or whatever. It's, but is really leaning on him. I mean, I don't know whether that says more about him

or more about DJ Wilson, but it's saying a lot about somebody. Do we think that was part of the extension agreement that Yana signed? Like, if we start to see Alex and Teddikumpo on this team in a couple of years whenever he comes out of college,

like I think we'll know something is up. Well, rather than the salary share that the Morris twins were on, there's like a minute's share for Yonis and Thanassus. So if you don't want to play, you know, if it's a blowout, Thanos has got to get in there. We got to hit a minute,

total here. The honest is like, well, if I calculate my value to this franchise, maybe you could max out the Nossus, and then those two salaries combined, it really has my value. The Morris Twins joint contracts, the more and more we go on here is the wildest thing that's happened in the NBA in recent years. And that the sun's just turned around and just immediately. Immediately. That is like dirty. That in the Carlos Boozer like opting out just to sign with another team thing is like, that. Those are the two of the worst things like I've seen in the NBA.

Contract-wise, there's probably been much worse things. I guess we're just going to have to wait on the bucks here. I mean, maybe the question is like, do they have a move in them? Are we sold on Dante Divenzo's future with this team? Or is he just like a piece

that potentially they can spin into something else of the deadline? Where are you guys on Spicey D? I would want a little more time. And some of it, to your point, Justin, about needing to wait and see,

they just haven't played in that many close games yet. We haven't really seen what their crunch time lineups are going to look like. And it's been games that aren't close on both sides. They've had some bad losses too. But when they have had tough situations, it's been the three guys you would expect. It looks like Brooke Lopez is going to have to be out there

just because of the way the rotation is laid out now, unless the matchup is completely atrocious for him. And then it's one of Dante DiVincenzo or Pat Connocton. That's what you're rolling with right now. And if you're satisfied with that for contention, then that's kind of what it's going to be. Dante is by far the more promising option there, and I think he's had a decent start to the season

in terms of fitting in, looking a little, just a little calmer than he did in the bubble. But you're, again, as we've come around to a lot in talking about the bucks, a lot is leaning on Dante DiVinenza this season. I'd say I'm worried less about him as your fifth best player

as Conitin, Augustin, Bobby Portis, is 6, 7, 8. Because you've got to have at least a 7-man rotation, right, in a playoff series. So right now, I'm just going through the rosters. I'm looking for who's going to get bought out. I feel like they just have to get a buyout guy.

I don't know who that's going to be, but they have to. We're like two weeks into the season. We're already looking at bio guys for this team. That's not a good place to be in. The other thing, to be fair, about the bucks, we can talk about their playoff struggles and the teams they've run up against, and certainly they put themselves in a category

where that's the conversation. How does this team get to the finals? How does this team win the championship? But you watch some of these games, and you're really reminded out at how hard it is to build the wall against Janus. You know, the book is out. Like, everyone knows what to do.

But then, you know, the pistons roll out there, the poor Detroit pistons, and Janus is just dropping 43 on them because they can't get back in transition and set up the right way. And some of that, you know, some of that is kind of regular season teams versus playoff teams. But I think we overestimate the non-Miamy heat, the non, like, super elite defense contingent of the East and their ability to match up with Yonnas, especially if the Raptors aren't going to be the Raptors this season. How many teams are there in the East who are really going to be able to get back in transition and wall up the bucks the way that they're going to need to? I guess the Sixers are in that conversation too. Yeah, I wonder if the answer is for Bud to just play these guys more.

Like, maybe we're overestimating just how stringent he's going to be that approach after just failing so dramatically two years in a row with it. Like, maybe the bench doesn't become an issue because you're playing Janice, Middleton, and Drew 40 minutes in every playoff game. And all of a sudden, like, Bobby Portis just, like, isn't playing, and you're playing Janus is, like, you're staggering the minute. So Janus is the center with some of those second unit teams. I don't know. I can't buy this approach, Justin. You're saying, like, the bucks are, like, working against their own coach.

Like, we are actively going to prevent you from playing more than, like, six players. Yeah, they jerry rigged the lineup in order, they bud-proof the lineup in order to get these guys in more. Well, he used to find his inner Tom Tibado, apparently. And Janus needs to find his inner Julius Rand, and everything will be fine. They did get blown up by the next year other day, so maybe we're on to something here. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you to Tim for dropping some Dallas knowledge, especially about the metro area and their usage of horses. We will be back next week on Tuesday, yet again, our new time, our new place. Until then, we will see you then.