The Ringer NBA Show - Can the Mavericks Get Back to the NBA Finals? Are the Surging Bucks Contenders Again? | Real Ones

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

Michael Pina and Raja Bell discuss the NBA Cup teams and where they currently stand in the league. Are we witnessing an all-time defensive team with this year's OKC Thunder (3:11)? Has the Bucks’ streak with the current core ran its course (22:17)? Do the Knicks have the best offense in the NBA (33:35)? Is Golden State in trouble with their recent skid and attempts to find a consistent lineup (42:33)? Plus, mailbag questions on Shai vs. Jokic for MVP and concerns for the Nuggets. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Michael Pina and Raja Bell Producer: Clifford Augustin Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody. Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the mismatch. And huge welcome as well to my new co-host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week every Tuesday and Friday right here on the mismatch to break down everything that's happening in the league. Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe and hit us with those five-star ratings on Spotify or wherever you get you. your podcast. And also don't forget to follow us on social media that's at ringer nba and check out the full mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history of podcasting right in

the ringer NBA YouTube channel. What's up everybody? Welcome to real ones. My name is Michael Pina. I'm a senior staff writer at the ringer.com and I am still for one more week excited to guest host this fantastic NBA podcast. Joining me on the other line, a man who once averaged 19, point one points with ridiculous 51-51-80 shooting splits for an entire seven-game second-round playoff series in which his Phoenix sons defeated the

Los Angeles Clippers in 2006, the one, the only, Rajabelle. Michael, you've outdone yourself again, sir. Thank you. Thank you. What a time, what a time that was. I needed that this morning, man. You know, I'm running around here. Christmas, a lot of stuff going on.

I needed that little pick-me-up. Take me back in the time machine. I appreciate you. That was a great series. I remember watching it in my dorm room in college. It was fantastic. It was a, it was a, it was a, it was in very, yeah, it was, it was a very cool probably, we probably shouldn't have won that series or the series before that, but it was all good. Awesome. So, Raja, today with the NBA Cup officially entering its single elimination knockout round this week, I figured it'd be fun to, uh, to, to cover. this thing by asking you one quasi-general big picture question about the eight teams that are still

alive. And for those who need a refresher, that's the Thunder, the Mavs, the Magic, the Bucks, Knicks, Hawks, Warriors and Rockets. After that, you know, we'll open up the mailbag and answer a few questions, which I'm super excited about. But until then, Raja, you know, before we get into this, Do you have a prediction about which team will win the NBA Cup? Not a, I don't know. Yeah, it's, it's, no, to answer your question before I just launch into some BS, I really don't. Michael, sorry. Can you pick a team so that we can just, I was going to just say, you pick the team and then I'll go.

I'll pick a team. All right. I'll pick a team for you. I don't, I really don't have a feeling on it. But, um, let's see, man, maybe OKC. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Perfect. Okay. So my question about OKC, pretty simple. Yep. Is this a historically great defense? And, you know, can we start comparing them to the 04 Pistons, the 08 Celtics, the 05 spurs? Or is it too soon for that? Do we need them to do it in the playoffs and, you know, possibly even win the whole thing before we put them besides such revered company? Just what are your thoughts on OKC's defense right now? Yeah, I do think that before you can start, like, truly comparing them to all-time grades, like, it's got to, I think it's got to produce something. That's just what my gut tells me. But when you watch them, when you break the numbers down, the pieces that they have defensively, they're a really, really good defensive unit, man. They're very good on the perimeter.

like they have a bunch of guys that can stay in front of you and contain the ball, you know, which is already an embarrassment of riches when you have that many guys, they can do that. But, but then, you know, with Isaiah and when Chet's healthy, you've got pretty elite rim protection in there too, which is, which is, you know, when you're talking about all-time great defenses, this is what we're talking about. We're not just like a one-level defensive team. Like, we're playing on, they turn you over. They block shots. You know, they, they, you know, they, they're just a really good defensive unit, man. So I, it's hard for me.

It's always hard for me as an older player, as I'm sure it is for a lot of older players. Those, those Detroit Pistons teams, because they were so physical, you know, and they had all the makings of, of, of, of a great defense in terms of, you know, interior wise with body and Rashid and then you had the perimeter defenders. But they also added a level of like just pure physicality. but the game was played like that in a way that it's not now. Right. So that's not really fair to OKC, but I think I would reserve putting them amongst the best of all time until I see this play out.

It's only 20-some games in, right? Yeah, to your point, comparing one defense from one era to another where obviously there's the proliferation of the three-point shot, there's rule changes. It's much more skewed to offense right now. But I just want to kind of add some context to why I'm even saying. saying something so what might be heard as outlandish to a lot of people listening. Right now, OKC not only ranks first in defensive rating, but its defensive rating is 8.9 points per 100 possessions below the current league average, which is the largest margin any team has had since at least the year 2000.

That's crazy. So they're killing it defensively. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, no, just I was going to say, you know, they turned... Their first in opposing turnover rate, they have a roster and a rotation that is like stockpiled with all defensive team candidates. And their first and field goal percentage at the rim, their third and three point percentage defense. Like they can do a lot of stuff. And they haven't been healthy yet, which is the craziest part.

Yeah. No, and that's pretty wild. Like when, you know, you're leading the league in terms of, you know, your first in opponent's points in the paint or, you know, and rim protection, but you're also running them off the three the way they are. I mean, that's elite. You know,

when you're building a defense, typically on teams that I've been on, you're, you know, our Sixers teams had really good defenders, but you had Dekembe behind you, like when I got there, at least, in a way,

and they had Theo before that. Those were erasers. Well, you could, you know, you didn't have to be like lockdown necessarily. You can be in passing lanes and do stuff like that. I was on other teams where we had,

really good guards defensively. You keep them out of the paint, but you might not have had the human eraser behind you. Like putting the two components together is really, you know, it's really critical in those all-time great defenses. But, you know, the one thing they don't do great is, is, like, rebound the ball.

Like, you know, they get beat up on the glass with the second chance points. And, like, when I'm comparing them, like, we're nitpicking, right? So when I'm comparing, like, those Detroit teams that I'm talking about, San Antonio, like physical, long, probably not as switchable because we didn't switch as much in that era, you know, different coverages for sure, built differently, but like could contain the ball, had deterrence at the rim, but then they cleaned their glass up. And, you know,

if we're, I mean, we're nitpicking. That would be the one thing I'd say, probably. I think that that's why they got Hartnstein. Like last year, they couldn't rebound. This year, they haven't had both of their bigs healthy at the same time for a second this season. And they're still 29th, I think, in defensive rebound rate. So I want to see them get healthy. I want to see them play both bigs at the same time and just see how chaotic and imposing that will be. Rajah, before we move on to the next team, I'm curious, what's the best defense you ever

played against? Yeah, I'd probably say those pistons. Those piston squads, yeah. Because even guys like, I mean, Chauncey was really good defender. Tayshan was really good. Even Rip, you know, was a 6-6 Energizer Bunny with like probably like a 7-4 wingspan. And then you had, you had Rashid and Ben and I think McDice was coming off for a while. And they were good because they had the physical components, but schematically they were really good.

And then they were nasty. So like those three things and you got a pretty good defense. Yeah, the very impressive. I'm just, I'm curious to see if OKC can, I guess, run the table with this defense. I mean, defense has been their identity this season, and it's why they're one of the best teams in the NBA. Let's move on to the Dallas Mavericks, because they are playing the Oklahoma City Thunder in the quarterfinals here. Raja, should Dallas be considered the favorites to win the West right now? And I say that because Luca is back-looking like an MVP

candidate. Kairie is having one of his best seasons, which is very scary and kind of ridiculous. their defense is legit. The pieces that they've added, Clay, Quentin Grimes, Najee Marshall, have all played really well so far this season. So what do you think? Is Dallas like should be,

should Dallas be the favorite right now? This was a tough one for me, right? Because I mean, you asked me to pick and just on the spot, I picked OKC. They match up in the quarter. So that would suggest that I'd say no. But, you know, since,

since I do see it as kind of a toss-up out there and the Mavs are the reigning like Western Conference champs. I'll say yes. And I'll say it, you know, all the reasons you just said. And I think what it boils down to for me is like if you're, they're one of the best offenses in the league. They're a top 10 defense in the league. But what I love about them is now because of the additions that you just talked about,

they could play two ways if they have to. They could play as an ensemble, like where Luca is and he's brilliant at just, you know, got having the ball and doing what we talked about last episode, which is just moving the chess pieces around the board. And then he's delivering it. And you've got capable people now. Or, you know, they can, they can go to like, hey, man, it's me and then it's you in a game where, you know, let's say an opposing defense decides to kind of take away

that ensemble cast. I mean, they've got two bona fide superstar closers. And, you know, that's really tough in the playoffs. like to deal with that dilemma. I've talked at lengths about, you know, you're talking about watching our sons in the playoffs. Most people tried to stop Steve or Amari. Well, that let me get 15 or the 19 that you talked about and Boris.

And now we're all cooking in a way that it just, it rings to 125. You can't score that much. Well, well, the Spurs, what they would do, like the best defenses, would take us out of the game as the supporting cast. and then it was like Amari and Steve beat us, right? And so that's the dilemma that a lot of teams fall into playoff time, seven, six game series time, where we're trying to make that call from night to night. Well, the match can beat you either way.

Going back to last year, when we watched Luca in the finals, does that, does that his performance on the defensive end concern you at all? Or do you feel like that was kind of like a, you know, he was hurt, he's going up against this team that is just like basically unfair offensively. And it's more of an aberration in that his defense isn't as great a concern as people were saying at the time. Where do you come down on that? Yeah, I mean, I think you could, the Boston Celtics were a well-oiled machine. And two things can be true. They could have been that and it might not have mattered.

But I can also have concern for Luca's effort at times, right? And, you know, I don't think anyone's going to to lobby for Luka being a second or third team all defensive player with the responsibilities that he has offensively for that team. But giving consistent effort for his team so that he's not the point of breakdown in your defensive philosophy is really important for trying to win a championship for them. And I'd be lying if I didn't say I had concerns. But as it relates to the finals last year, you know, I think that. that's part of his growth process. You're tired at that point. That's a lot of work.

That's a grueling season. You've, you've, you've just emptied the tank in a way that you're running on fumes. Everyone is in the finals. Like, you're just running on adrenaline and fumes. And so I say that to say that, you know, what you do and where you grow from that is you start to prepare in a way the next year and take care of yourself in a way

that hopefully when we get back to that situation, you've got a little bit more left in the tank. And I think Luca will learn those lessons. He is learning those lessons in real time. So I'm not really worried about it, Michael. I'm concerned because quite frankly, we can't have that. But I'm not worried. I think that gets fixed.

I think I agree with you. I think he's the second best player alive and offensively the way he can just totally take over a game, elevate all of his teammates makes him so special. I also think that, you know, I think teams are going to hunt him aggressively for the rest of his career. And if you have the personnel where he can't hide anywhere, then it gets a little tricky. To answer this question before we move on, you know, no disrespect to Dallas. I think they're really good. I think I like the Thundermore. I think I would pick the nuggets in a playoff series over them.

And to be honest, I think I also picked the Memphis Grizzlies. And I could be on an island there. I like Memphis a lot. I think Memphis is the deepest team in the league. I think that they don't, you know, Bain and Jha aren't Luca and Kyrie, of course, as, you know, high volume, high frequency ball handling closers. but I just think as a team and as a unit, the way they play in their identity

in terms of pace, defensive intensity, how they crash the glass. If they can get enough shooting in a playoff series, I think that they couldn't beat anybody. I don't know how you feel about Memphis. I know I'm sidetracking there,

but I... Yeah, they were one of my favorite teams coming into the season. It was one of the ones that Howard and I talked about, like I wanted to keep an eye on them and I was intrigued by what they could potentially be. You know, styles make fights. You laid out a good case.

I, you know, I guess maybe the dormant year, if you will, last year has kind of, when you're talking about winning the West, it puts them for me, at least, in a tier maybe right below. Yeah. Those two that I've seen do it, or maybe three, if they're Denver in that, but like, I'm not mad at you for that at all. Let's go to the Orlando Magic. kind of a sad situation here. So last time we spoke, Franz Wagner was my most improved player pick when we did our quarter season. And now he's out indefinitely.

He's out indefinitely. He's out indefinitely. Both with serious oblique injuries. My question is Orlando's season essentially over. Like, is the NBA Cup all they have to play for now? How do you feel about them? Well, first, I don't know, excuse me. I don't know.

timetable on oblique what is that a couple months those are those are both are both no neither player has a timetable right now to return so yeah probably it's probably a wrap for them i i you know it's too much to expect that much of your production to be missing i mean your number one and your number one b guy are both gone um forget about offensive identity. I'm just talking about the, the, you know, mood around the team, the leadership void, the, you know, that's a lot to ask a team to overcome when, when those two pieces go out. And so more than likely, it's probably going to be playing for the cup. And that's it. Now, I would say that I don't have any experience with oblique injuries. I don't really know. If we're talking about

three or four weeks and those guys can come back, well, they're playing, they're playing really good basketball and they're built on the right stuff in terms of defendant and stuff like that. So if that were the case, I don't think it's a rat, but I don't know how long they're out for a couple months. More than likely, probably a rap. Yeah, I kind of went back and forth on this. Like, generating good looks in the half court will be impossible. That's just like it's, that's not going to happen.

I still don't think they'll be fun to play. Like, they'll still defend. They'll still be massive. You know, I still think they can force a lot of turnovers, play in transition, play fast. They're tough as hell. Their benches, gnarly. They still have some depth. And they have the sixth easiest schedule in the conference.

And the conference is completely broken right now. So, you know, I feel like with the cushion that they have, three and a half up on the play and they have a seven-game lead on the 11th seed. So I guess to your point, I don't know when they're coming back. So if they're out for multiple months, then I don't think that cushion really matters, and they could go in a tailspin. Because if Jalen Suggs is your number one option, you're not going to win a lot of NBA basketball games.

So I don't really have it. I don't know what to say because I don't know what these guys are coming back. It's very difficult to answer this question. It's a very difficult question to answer. And it's, I'm going to go inside the mind of like, but everything changes. Like if your assignments, right, like when one guy goes out, you know, the next guy sequentially gets his job. Then the number three guy bumps into the number two role.

You know, and we're just going to move everyone up on them. Right. When those jobs kind of overlap at times. Like one and two can overlap. Two and three can overlap. When you start trying to move dudes multiple spots into like in in that packing order and you're asking a number three now it's different if we've got like two number twos that are bona fide guys. But when you're taking a number three that's a really good supporting player and trying to cast him in that number one role, I mean, that's a lot of that's a lot of pressure. And a lot of guys that tell you they can do it until someone asks you to do it consistently.

Like when I, I got traded to Charlotte and we were a team that had Gerald Wallace, who was probably our number one and Raymond Felton. And, you know, but I think both of them at that point were like, you know, number ones on the Bobcats, but like, probably not every night, you know, you weren't going to get a consistent. So therefore, like Boris Diao and I became like bumped up in a way where like from any given night and sometimes on multiple nights in a row. if I was hot, Larry Brown would run offense to get me shots. Those shots weren't like an accent anymore. Like they were critical. If we didn't get them, we didn't have a chance. Like in Phoenix, those shots were like,

we're going to have a chance if Roger's making or missing. If he's missing, we'll just, you know, like Leandro will hit those shots, no big deal. Well, in Charlotte now, those shots are like, you don't make those or you're tired or you don't have the legs or you get in foul trouble. We're not going to win. not over the course of the entire season, Michael,

but like over three game stretches, I didn't realize how hard that job was in the NBA until someone asked me to do that. It's like they need KCP to play make almost. Like he'll have the ball in his hands. I don't even know who is going to be like the offensive engine here right now because Franz did so much and Palo did so much before he got hurt. So tough, just a really tough situation for Orlando.

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Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. Let's go to the Bucks. Bucks are playing Orlando in the quarterfinals. So with championship robust expectations, now that Chris Middleton is finally back, can this team win the title? I feel like it's the only question

that matters in Milwaukee. I don't know, Michael. I don't know, man. And I mean, I said it last year, I think a lot. My answer was yes whenever you had Janice and Dan. I just, I feel like they're a little bit past their expiration date. I feel like they're a little bit past it. I'd still pull for them.

I'd still, you know, I'm going to give you a puncher's chance. You know, Janus is playing fantastic games, having a nice year. I don't know what Chris Middleton has left in the tank. That's a long time to be out. So how old is he now? Do you know how I forgive me? I don't. I want to say 33 off the top of it.

my head. Listen, man, I remember being 33. Those injuries, you don't come back the same way that you did. And he's been injured for a while. So I don't think he's the guy we saw when they were making those deep, you know, championship runs. Yeah, I think they're a little past their expiration date. I'd still pull for him. I'd give him a punch and chance, but like, I think they're just past it. I don't trust the defense, like in a playoff series. And forget about one playoff series because I think Janus can win a playoff series by himself. He's that good. Dame can get hot, win games by himself, basically.

The defense is just, I know they rank, you know, league average maybe right now, right around there. But, like, in the playoffs, look, like, Dame is kind of an Achilles heel. And I think teams are just going to attack him relentlessly, bring whoever he's guarding into ball screen actions, and go at him. And I just, I think that that's too much to overcome and has been the one element of this team that's prevented me from being excited about them since they traded Drew Holiday and went and got Dame. So I'm pretty down on them. I'm not going to lie.

And I don't know how they, I just don't know what the big picture steps are for them to actually get where they want to go with Janus on the roster. Yeah, there's going to, they're going to be some real creative sessions with the front office and ownership as to where, as to where they go after this one, I would imagine. You know, defensively, when they were vying for those championships and where they were right in the mix, like that, that was the calling card. Like, they were a really good defensive team. So, I mean, I know they lost some pieces, clearly Dame for Drew in terms of defensive ability is a huge thing. but I just felt like some of the guys that were on, when that's bred into you in that way, when you've had success and you've won doing it, I mean, you can have a change of coach,

a change of philosophy and stuff like that, but typically like that's in your DNA in a way that you, you know, and I just haven't felt, I haven't felt like it's all on coaching, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. You know, so, yeah, I don't know, man, but they're, yeah, I don't know where they go. if I'm telling you they're past their expiration date now with the roster they have.

Like, I don't know where you go. To be honest with you, like, when they lost PJ Tucker from the championship team, I thought that that was a significant blow to them, like, I don't even know, like culturally, I guess. And just like having the tough guy who's going to be like, I'm going to guard Kevin Durant in this playoff series, you know, and they don't have that guy on their roster anymore, which is tough. Let's go move on to the Atlanta Hawks. Raja, from what you've seen this year, does it feel like the Hawks will inevitably move on from Trey Young?

Or is it smart for Atlanta to keep him and grow with what could someday be a perfect supporting cast? Do you want me to answer this one first? Yes, please. Go, you go. So I am a skeptical Trey Young believer. Try to make sense of that while I speak. I think his passing and his shooting range and his IQ are really high level. I think as a pick and roll playmaker, he can be the top option on a very good playoff team.

We've seen him get to the conference finals. And I really like this supporting cast. I feel like he has the best teammate he's ever had in Jalen Johnson right now, who is like 2010 and 5 efficiently. And I don't know if he'll be an all-star this season. but he has this case if they keep winning. You know, they just drafted Zachary Risha Shea. Fascinating player, 19 years old, number one overall pick. Dyson Daniels, who we talked about in our last episode,

he's probably going to make an all-defensive team. He was built in a lab to share a back court with Trey Young. He's also just 21. So, honestly, you know, there's been a lot of trade talk with Trey over the past three, four years. And where I come down on it is I think that they actually have something worth being patient with around him for the first time in forever. And that says a lot more about, I think, or as much about the supporting cast and the players than it does his own foibles and his shortcomings. But I think that they should just kind of let this ride for a couple of years and see where it takes them. What do you think?

Yeah, I like where you went with that because I was, you know, admittedly kind of torn. between that and then you know i've had my own i've had my own thoughts on tray but but in fairness to to the way he he was playing he he almost had to play like that um as a smaller guard i i i like him more in in this in this capacity where like clearly he can get buckets he can shoot the ball he can do that but but he's he's also setting the table in a way for guys that that allows them to support him. And it's not like live or die, whether he has 40, the tail of the tape, whether they win a game or not. And so I like him in that space. And I think that speaks to what you're saying, which is like the roster. Like even DeAndre Hunter in there, like the roster

is, is, is, is, is, is better, right? Like, there are better pieces. There's better vision for where we could go. And I, and I, and I, and I, and I, I don't know what, what you bring in. for him that pairs well enough with the rest of those guys in terms of the facilitating that he can do, if that makes sense when you're running. Like you don't want to bring in something that puts, let's say it's a bigger version of a scoring guard that's going to, hey, I need this ball,

I'm going to shoot all of these shots and it's going to stunt everyone else around me and I think we're going to be better. I kind of like him with them. And so I could, yeah, you talk me into it. I talk myself into it. But I like that. I do.

because I like him, I like him, I like his supporting cast and what it allows him to be as a player better. I have a philosophical question for you off of how Atlanta has kind of built their team. I'm not saying Atlanta should be perceived as a championship contender or anything like that. But theoretically, can you win a title if your best player or best offensive player or just an integral part of your team who can't be benched in a playoff series is just so bad on defense and is such a net negative throughout his whole career on that side of the ball and will be hunted and targeted. And we just, you know, we talked about Luca, but Luca's like big. And so it's a little, little different.

I feel like, you know, Trey or we talked about Memphis, John Morant, just like smaller players who are so important, because you don't see teams win the title who have guys like that. Do you feel like it's like a fool's errand to even try to have someone like that on your team who's so important offensively? But, you know, or Dame is another example. Just like you'll get, the playoffs are just all about macho punting, I feel like. And I don't know. I don't think it's possible to win at the highest level with these guys.

Yeah, that's a good question. It's a tough one. I don't think it's not worth the exercise because I think, you know, I think you can get it right, but there's a lot that has to go right in terms of team building around them to give them the chance to do that. You know, like when those teams have to be built with real size, real defensive chops, like real tangible things that make up for maybe the lack of size. I've said before I'm not going to run from this statement. You know, when we talked about Dame and CJ,

I thought it was really, really difficult or it was going to be really, really difficult and it proved to be really difficult for the two small guards to win. Like I think that's really hard. But if you're telling me you have one, I just got to get the recipe right around it. You know, and he's got to be,

not unlike what I said with Luca. you don't have to be a great defender, my boy. Like, I'm not sitting here telling you that I look at you and see that in your future. I need you to be a dog. I need everybody else on the team to look at you and know that you're given a valiant effort in that way. And if we can do that, like, that's the start of being able to figure this thing out. So I'm not going to say it's not worth the time. I'm not going to say you can't win.

Two small guards, I'm out. One small guard, you know, we just got to figure out. what's right. Like if, again, you talked about, you talked about Dyson Daniels being made in a lab to play next to a, next to a tray, right? Like the Sixers team that I was blessed to be dropped on in the playoff run, the reason I was on that team, aside from Pepe Sanchez getting traded and them not being able to get in back in time for the playoffs, but they could have targeted anyone. Wow, it was six, five wing, like a guy who could guard ones. So like, you know, you had East Snow was a, a, big body PG. Right. Aaron McKee was a relatively big guard and you had big wings like George, you know, uh, Lynch and your big people.

Yeah, I feel like if you had, if the person we're talking about is extra special offensively, right. Then that nullified. I mean, Steve Nash is another example. One of the best offensive players in NBA history.

I think if that is the case, you can win a title. Um, so fast, just a fast, little philosophical thing I wanted to bring up with the Atlanta Hawks and how they're kind of moving forward here. Let's move on to the New York Knicks. Simple one. Simple one for you, Roger. Is this the best offense in the NBA? Go. Man, that's tough. That's a tough one, man. Like, oh, TBD? TBD. I can't let you up, but this is podcasting, Roger. Come on.

This is podcasting. I mean, yes. The statistics say yes. right now, right? Like, they do. Like, are they number one in, their number one in offensive rating right now in offensive efficiency? Look, here's what, here's what I say. I don't know that they wind up being the number one offense in the league next week. But I just say this, when you, when you watch them play now, first of all, I'm pat myself on the back. I really liked cat for them. I thought he was, I mean, what he creates in terms of spacing and he's an elite passer, like he can really pass the ball. He plays ball. But Jay, Jalen Brunson has decided,

I'm going to take a little bit less in terms of ball dominance. And money. And money. And money. They're moving better as a unit. Like people are flying around. The ball is moving.

And it's moving like quicker if that makes sense. Like it's like hitting hands and then hitting another set of hands. Like it's just moving and they're giving up shots to get other people great shots, giving up good shots to get great shots the old saying and stuff like that and so i know out of at a necessity it sometimes last year it was isoball like but but i really like the way they're playing aesthetically this year i think it allows for the scenario that i was telling you about with the sons which is i mean sure you're going to have the lion's share of our points jeline brunson and cat but all the rest of us now can can eat a little bit too and that just makes us better

i love that point you make about the unselfishness because that's really what i see when i watch this team play, especially compared to last year and how Jalen Brunson had this ridiculous burden. He's still getting his numbers and he's still going to make an all-star team. He's been incredible. But when you watch him play, it's like night and day. And I think it's for the better for his body and just for the general makeup and demeanor of the team. And Towns at the Five, I've also been a big townsperson his whole career and I think that a lot of the issues in Minnesota were not his fault. Offensively, when he's at the five, I don't care who's around him, it's going to be awesome. Like, he's so special and he's having like the best season of his career. He leads the

league in defensive rebounding. He's shooting 45% behind the three point line. And he has just so much space around him to operate. So it'll be interesting when, you know, Mitchell Robinson comes back and it'll be interesting just to see how the rotation shakes out. But him at the five offensively is, I mean, it's basically what the Celtics did with Chris Stap's Porzingis, right? There's really no difference there. I've yet to see Josh Hart miss a layup this season. I've yet to see Deuce McBride miss a pull-up jumper. I mean, they're just hitting everything. They look great. I still think the Celtics have the best offense.

And I think they rank third right now, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere around there. Do you, like, when push comes to shove, do you feel like? Yes, look, that's why I was, I mean, I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't, right? Like, they are the number one offense in the league, but if you made me pick between the pieces

and the possibilities. with the Celtics and what they can do to you offensively or the Knicks, that's a no-brainer for me. McKell Bridges is quietly starting to hit shots too, which is, that's the guy they gave up five first round picks for, whatever it is. I mean, I saw the videos that went viral this summer of what he was doing to his shot, so I'm excited he's making some now because that was brutal to watch for a minute. Why would someone do that? I don't know.

That's psychological. I don't know. I don't know. You know, it's not unlike the portion of, I think, the portion of golfers that wind up getting the yips and stuff like that. Like sometimes you could just get too into your own head with something that should be kind of natural, you know. Did you or anyone you played with ever consider like tweaking their shot in the middle of their career, especially when there was nothing wrong? I mean, he was a, very good shooter before. So I don't, like, whether it be like, I need to make the release faster, I need to have the release point higher, anything like that where it's like, okay, I need to just

fundamentally change this thing that's like foundational to me as a basketball player. Yeah. Well, I didn't make many shots in Philly as a shooter. And I did change mine. Yeah, I brought, I did. I did after after Dallas I think um no no no sorry after Philly maybe I changed my shot before I went to Dallas it was it was it was a fractional change um and I didn't overhaul it which is I would suggest anytime you're changing something like that like don't try to just completely overhaul it you have to stay within the confines of what feels comfortable for you like anatomically speaking you know like your shoulders only move in certain ways and whatnot um so So I did, but it's more mental.

You know, there are some physical components of the shot that I had to change, albeit not an overhaul, but it was more mental than anything. It was just being in a, being in a confident state about it and feeling like, you know, I've done this kind of my whole life. You know, you just, I've, who would we do a pod with? I think it was Shane Badiere who came on and we got kind of deep in the rabbit. hole about the chip England and shooting the ball and stuff and you know I've said this to i've said this to my son's offensive coordinator when he was a freshman in high school as a football player um and he got

really angry with me because he was trying to change my son's throwing motion right and i i i i it happened organically i asked him how he was doing one day and the guy was like no he's doing great man he's doing great but he's got to he's got to change this and so it provided me an opportunity to be like hey man listen i'd rather you not do that now now mind you this guy's like a lawyer by trade like he's not like a a quarterback coach he's just a OC at a high school and and so i didn't really get upset with him but i what i said to him was was look it's like a jump shot and i i would be qualified to take a kid and try to recreate his jump shot because I did it at a super high level for a long time. But A, I don't, I don't, I'm not trained to do that.

And so I don't really want to like start messing with that. And B, and probably more importantly, I don't want to get inside that kid's head and have him, you know, if he couldn't make a jump shot, that's one thing. If my son couldn't hit his target, that'd be one thing. But if he's hitting the target over and over again, where this kid's shooting. 43% from three. Yeah. I'm not climbing in his head in a way that's going to make him start doubting that. And that's what I find about jump shots a lot.

Like you're getting inside someone's head and you're tinkering around, tinkering around, tinkering around, and you don't know how to get out. And now you're stuck in there. And he hears you every time he shoots or tries to throw a football. Don't do that. And so for a lot of NBA players, like that, that's what I felt mine was most about Michael is like the guy who did it, Marvin Harvey shot out. He didn't climb in my head in a way that would have me like hearing him when I slept at night.

It was really simple. It was really clean. And it was, it kept me really confident about it. I think the word confidence is so important and something that people who watch from afar, watch from the outside, don't really understand because, hey, you've made it to the NBA. You must be confident when you wake up in the morning, confident when you go back to bed at night. This is what you do. this is your craft, this is what you're getting paid so much money, um, to perform as. And I feel like confidence is something that is fleeting in all of us. And so that's, uh, but he's hitting the shot, he's hit, McHalebridge is hitting shots now. So I guess he's, uh, he's got to throw it.

Okay. So, uh, let's move on to the, uh, the Golden State Warriors. Um, interesting team here. Uh, with their starting lineup in constant, constant flux, you know, Dremont went to the bench on Friday night. And, you know, guys are falling in and out of their rotation after there was this whole we're going to play 12 guys thing to start the season. Is Golden State in more trouble than they've led on? Or do you trust the, you know, Kerr, Curry, Draymond, alchemy, and plus some of the young talent, just to kind of figure it out? And can I ask you a follow up question before you answer? Yeah. How hard it is, how hard is it as an NBA player to not know how many minutes you're going to play from night to night? That's something I've asked many players throughout my career as a writer. And the answer I usually get is it's really hard. So, like, I, what's going on there?

It's really, really difficult to, to have no stability in terms of expectation minutes-wise. from a preparation standpoint in terms of I know I need to be warm at this point sitting on the bench or I got to get my heat packs. This sounds this sounds corny but you know the body is cold you know after you warm it up and then it's cold as you're sitting there on the bench like guys have routines in terms when they're going to get their heat packs when they might hop on the bike to start warming themselves up to just try to make sure that they're they're running the right way when they hit the court um you know general role is affected by the minutes played sometimes. And so, like, not knowing what that's going to

look like from night to night. I was, most NBA players, even the best scores on the planet, they talk about getting to their spots, right? So knowing where those shots are going to come from, like, you, you know, maybe know the frequency of them or how many you'll get, you know, from game to game, but you kind of know where they're coming from. And so all of that goes into, like, playing 82 to, I don't know, however many, 100 games, whatever it is. Um, if you go to the finals, but like knowing pretty much what that looks like from night to night becomes really important to professional athletes. So it's incredibly hard. I remember watching the heat was the first time I was really like, you know, when they were winning with,

with LeBron and D. Wade and around the edges of that, like Spowe would like play somebody one night and then not playing. Like these guys were just being used in the, to my eye at the time, the wild this way. And I remember asking some of those dudes after it, like, hey, man, was that like, they were like, bro, it was incredibly hard and frustrating. We're professionals, so we made that work, but like, it was incredibly hard and frustrating. And so, yeah, it's really, really difficult. And to the question about Golden State, I don't know what they are. I don't, it's hard for me to tell you exactly what they are. My gut says to trust Steve Kerr, Draymond, and Steph to keep that thing afloat and keep it viable.

I don't trust it to win anything significant in the West, I don't think. You know, what I've been lobbying for, I think personally as a fan of Stephs, I would like to see them go out and go hunting for something that of real significance to pair with him for this last run that he has left, whatever is left in the tank. And I don't see this team as being one that can, as he continues to age gracefully, do the things that it's going to need to do around him, just quite frankly. So they're cool, you know, but I don't pick them to do much out there. I agree.

I think that they, you know, in the context of actually winning an NBA championship, which is something that Steph obviously wants to do, they're in trouble. Like, and I think that if you look at their actions in the offseason, they wanted to make a consolidation trade. They wanted to get Lowry Markinen. They wanted to get Paul George. They did not extend Jonathan Cumminga, which makes him easier to trade in season. So to me, it's like they clearly want more talent.

They clearly want another all-star caliber player. I don't know who that's going to be. You know, last year they made this, I don't really know how to frame it, but they almost got LeBron James. There was like something going on there that was real. Could that be revisited? Maybe. I don't know.

That would be really interesting. Jimmy Butler's out there. There was a report today that, you know, if Jimmy, you know, the heater listening to offers and Jimmy wants to go to a contender and the Warriors were one team that were listed as a possibility. I just think they need a set rotation. I don't think bringing Draymond off the best. bench when Draymond plus Steph has been the formula to success forever. Like, splitting them up

makes absolutely no sense to me. And I don't know if that's going to be a long-term thing. He obviously started their next game after he went to the bench. So just a weird situation there. Can I ask you a question that just popped into my head, Roger, when I mentioned when I mentioned LeBron. You're not LeBron. I know that. So, you know, I don't want you to speak for. him necessarily. It's impossible. But why do you think he would not want to go to the Golden State Warriors if he has a 0% chance of winning a title with the Lakers and if he was all about winning and that was the end game priority, played with his son, won a title with L.A., etc. Why would he not want to go to the Warriors and compete for a title with Steph. Yeah, so are you asking me to make

the case for him, or is this something he said that he didn't, he, this is. Well, his agent was on the record last year saying, you know, we didn't want to do that. We didn't want to go to the Golden State Warriors. I mean, you know, I, I spent time with the Cavs when they first, you know, when LeBron first came back with Kyrie and Kevin Lovewin went to the finals that first year. And I was still connected to them in that second year. Like I took my boys up to the finals games in Cleveland, even though I wasn't a part of the organization anymore. The beef was real with the two organizations at the time.

Again, I'm not in LeBron's camp and I'm not in Steph's camp or anybody else's for that matter. So probably squashed by now in a way that it doesn't matter. but like it was real then and so you know i i guess you could you could make that argument i think that everywhere lebron has gone it has been the lebron culture that that that has driven what they've done there in a way that i don't think happens when you go to golden state they've you know for the most part, he's gone to places that haven't been able to get over the hump. And his presence and his culture is what's going to help him get over the hump. Aside from Miami, it was the heat culture,

but it was LeBron's talent. I think that Steph's the culture of Golden State. Yes. You know, so there's a little bit of maybe lack of control, you know, that might not appeal to him. And I don't mean in terms of personal moves. I just mean in terms of like the, hey, the way we're going to conduct self in the locker room, the way whose voice, whose voice is going to permeate through this bad boy? Who's going to be the one that people look to? That's him everywhere. That won't be him in Golden State. So, and again, I don't know this as fact. You asked me, but those are all things that, you know, as you get later in the career, I don't know. It's just, it's fascinating to me because, like, it would be perceived as a bad look to go to Steph's team. And I personally,

as someone who loves the NBA, I could care less about any of this stuff. I think that it would be really cool to see LeBron play for the Warriors. I think that that would be box office, and they'd be really good. I think that they would then be a bona fide contender. So, you know, and I think the Lakers also would be more than willing and happy to move on also or what that's worth. But I just wanted to get your two cents on it, because it's a really interesting thing that could be revisited going forward. Yeah, it is interesting. And I've, I mean, just, I always thought that, like, you know, the argument about the goat stuff and, like, you were not probably catching MJ in terms of, you know, the way he put championships together and whatnot. But like, what

MJ didn't have was everywhere he went, a championship followed, you know, and so far, so good with LeBron, every, you know, except for the first stop in Cleveland before he was ready to really win. But, but, like, I always thought it'd be another little notch on his belt or feather in his cap, if you will, if you, if he had another stop and it rained another championship parade, you know? So, like, I don't know, but I think it'd be interesting, too. I'd like to see it. Let's move on to the Houston Rockets, our last team. How patient with this roster would you be if you were Houston's GM, Raphael Stone? Is this a championship core as is, or will they eventually need an all-star caliber caliber scorer?

They were very interested in adding Donovan Mitchell, for example, before he resigned with the Cleveland Cavaliers. When I say championship corps, I don't mean this season. and just being, you know, in the future. But would they, should they tinker? Should they make trades? Just how patient would you be? Yeah, I'd be pretty patient with them. I'd be patient.

I say that and what I'm about to say next is going to sound like it's in complete conflict with that. But I also think that you're going to need another piece to fill the role that you just kind of talked about. Like, I'm not sure that anyone on that team turns into that in that way. But I really. like the core. I like what they what they do defensively. I like how how physical they are, how rangy they are defensively. I may and the way he gets teams to buy into playing a certain

way is a real thing. It's a real sustainable thing. So I really like them. I wouldn't be in a rush. But I would say that you, you're going to need a piece at some point, but I wouldn't be in a rush to do it. I like what I'm looking at with them. And I think, you know, people are, you're watching, you're watching these guys kind of grow right before your eyes. They don't, they don't shoot the ball very well. Like, they kill, they crash the shit out of the boards. Like, they do some really good stuff for a team that's, that, that, it could be tough to score the ball at times. So you're going to need that, but I'd be patient. 100% agree

I think to again conflict what I just said I agree I think if you added KD or Devin Booker to this team tomorrow I would probably pick them to win the West to be 100% honest with you

but that's not reality I think Shingoon can be that guy who's the hub of an elite offense someday when I look at the roster besides that, it's like, is Reed Shepard going to be Damian Lillard? I don't know. So if he is, great, then you've got something going. If not, then I don't know. Like, Amen Thompson, Tari Isson,

can these guys, like, I just don't think that those types of players. I really love them, but I don't think that they're those types of players. And I'm not a Jalen Green person, personally. I don't know, where you fall in Jalen Green, but well, look, here's the thing. Like, could, Reed or Sengoon, like,

maybe, I tend to agree with you. I don't necessarily, anything can happen. Anything can happen, but like my eyeball says that even at their best, at the best version of themselves

as an offensive, like weight carrying NBA player, I don't, I don't see them as a true number one on that championship, most of that roster, right? So that's no, I always say that, and I feel like I'm disparaging someone's game, and I don't mean to do that at all. Like, they're really, really good players. I just, I think you watch that for a while, and how long do you have to wait for one of them to turn into that?

I don't know, like contractually speaking, like what pieces you're going to lose in the process of waiting around, and now we got to pay guys. I don't have the answer to that. but I think you have a little bit of time to sit there and wait. And then I would imagine you're probably going to have to do it. What you and I are saying is go out and get a piece that fills that void, provided you can keep the nucleus and the foundation around it. I mean, I definitely don't think it's disrespectful.

Like to be, to say this player can probably not be a top five, top six, top seven player in the world. I always feel like I'm just saying someone sucks. And I really, yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. right like I'm sorry yeah all right raja let's uh open up the mailbag cliff our wonderful producer uh we have some questions today yeah we do got some questions today but real quick man you gotta get off the jalen green hate train man my i got to just time it up a little bit this year so child to jalen green but um let me get to the first question real quick uh if i can find it geez uh all right so

i know howard is a strong believer in team success as a prerequisite for MVP consideration a Thunder fan, I'm pretty invested in the race this year. And given the seasons Yokic and Shay are having, I'm wondering what the gap in wins and seating would have to look like to give the award to Shea over Yokic, who is having one of the most impressive seasons we've ever seen, but is on a notably worst team. So that's the question, guys. Go ahead, go ahead, Michael. Okay, so if the Thunder finish first and the Nuggets finish in the plan and Shea averages 30 a game and has impressive. of Onov splits, I think he will be very hard to beat. For me, hypothetically, as someone who does vote,

who is blessed to have a vote in this race, I just think nobody's close to Yokic in terms of production and value. And so long as the nuggets are a world beater with him on the court, and he's putting up historic numbers. I don't think it's like shameful to finish, you know, fifth or sixth in an incredibly competitive conference when you are by far the best player in the world having by far your best season. So that's kind of where I fall on it. I know Thunder fans are going to be mad, but that's my thoughts. Yeah, I don't, I don't disagree with that. Like, I don't, it's hard. I don't, I don't really vote. So I don't, quite frankly, no. The gap would have to be, the game gap would have to be really, really large.

It would have to be significant. I think for all the reasons you just said, Michael, we talked about, we talked about... Yeah, we hit this in the last episode, yeah. It would have to be a significant gap, and I don't not turn to take anything away from Shea. But he's just doing, like, remarkable. Now, if Yolkech has some slippage,

and we're not talking about, you know, the same type of production at this point, you know, later in the season, we're having a different conversation clearly, but what he's doing right now is crazy. All right, Yokish right now, second in points, first and rebound, second in assists. That's crazy. Averaging a triple double. Also, Thunder fans should never be mad if Yokic did get the MVP, because Russ got an MVP getting a triple double as well.

So let's not forget that. Right, you are. Question number two. Raja, who are one or two of your favorite assistant coaches during your playing days at any level? and what did they do that earned your respect and appreciation? What advice would you have for an inspiring college coach? Oh, man. That's a tough question because it's a good question, but it's a tough question.

I had some great coaches. Mike Woodson was one of my favorite assistant coaches when I had him in Philly. Woodrow would play me one-on-one before every game. bad knee and all he was he was the first dude to kind of hit me to being a professional in terms of the way I dressed and he gifted me a bunch of suits and stuff like that like that you know um talk to me in a way about what people expected from me that year and and and how to handle myself in those spaces like I thought he was he was really really good as an assistant coach um You know, the staff in Phoenix with Phil, Phil Weber, Alvin Gentry, and Dan D. Antony, Mark Ivaroni, all of them had a role. I spent a lot of time with Phil Weber. He was my guy off to the side that would shoot with me every day and stuff like that. But they had a unique staff where all of them would touch you a little bit. Like some staffs, like you have a guy. You know, like as an assistant, Michael's going to be my guy.

And so I deal with Michael. Michael never really deals with Cliff in any capacity. I think the Sons did it a little bit in a rotation where everybody had a little bit of a Gordi Chiesa. Gordon Chiasa with the Utah Jazz was my dude. Like real talk. Like Gordon Chiazza was my guy. I'm trying to think, man. I had some really good coaches, man.

I don't know. I hope that does it. My advice to an assistant coach, you know, anywhere would be. learn like go go home at night put stuff in your in your notebook or in your binder things you like things you want to try to aspire to do when you get the job um things things that you don't want to do things that you think were mistakes you don't have to throw anybody under the bus but like those are equally as important to know like what do i not want to do how did maybe you saw something that made a player feel a way that that took his confidence or something like that and

you're like, yeah, I don't want to repeat that. Do that. Build relationships with, with the players. That, that, that's always important because in the dynamic of like coaching, oftentimes that that head guy's got to be the bad cop. And those dudes need you to be there as their, as their good cop, somebody that'll listen to them. It's not that you can't hold them accountable and coach them too, but, but you're going to have to have a different relationship than the head guy does with them. It's a safe space for players a lot of times. you know and then uh i don't know it's a lot man before before before before anything figure out if you if you enjoy being a head coach or an assistant coach like i like being an assistant coach i've been a

head coach at at at the high school level and and at the youth level and youth programs i enjoy being an assistant coach more people would be like oh you want to be an assistant high school coach i fucking like it more i do like i know that though so that that that be the first order of business so anyway Hope that helped. Great answer. I enjoyed that. That is a good one. All right.

You ready for this last one? This is from Jesse. What's up, real ones? Ken and should the Nuggets trade, Michael Porter Jr., Darryl Sarech, Jalen Pickett, Zik Naji, and draft picks for Bogdan Bogdanovich, DeAndre Hunter, and Larry Nance, Jr.

How much does the Wizards game, unfortunately highlight the Nugget season, and do you think big changes are only arising in the organization or team? Or do you think these are just the woes of a small market team? Y'all are awesome. Keep it up, Jesse. Uh, this one kind of. Yes, on the trade. I'm just that. You got, you have the floor, Michael. You have the floor. I'm not going to get any deeper into it than that. You do what you do. So I get all that for MPJ and, uh, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, take them. Take them. Uh, yeah, we're good. Uh, so the nuggets have, uh, they're not allowed to trade any draft picks first of all. So that, the, the trade can't happen. legally.

They don't even have a first rounder. If I'm not mistaken, I don't think they have a first rounder anyway. No, they can't. They have no future picks that they can move. I don't, I don't think either of these teams would say yes to this. I think that the Hawks probably don't do it because Hunter's having a great season off the bench. Bogdanovich is awesome.

Larry Nance Jr. is a pro's pro. I just I don't think that Michael Porter Jr. is moving the needle for you in any way. I think that you have, we talked about the Hawks earlier in this episode. I think they have a really good growing nucleus here. And if you're the Nuggets, like, I guess it's intriguing, but Michael Porter Jr. is probably still the best player in the trade. And you're trying to win a title. So I don't necessarily think that makes you better. Roger, do you think he's the best player in the trade?

Yeah, the best player in the trade, yeah. But I don't know that I'd say good enough to matter in this context. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But clearly the best player in the trade, but like I, you know, I'm getting, you know, DeAndre is having a really, really good year relatively young, but Donovich is a, is a, is a baller. Like I get, I love Larry Nance, Jr., like I get a lot back. I probably.

In a vacuum, I probably would, but I hear what you're saying. Yeah. Maybe they do. Maybe they would. I don't know. But regardless, they don't have any picks. They can't move them. That's not allowed.

So, Jesse, love the question, though. No doubt. And that does it for our questions segment. That's our show, everybody. Yeah, that's it. What, I mean, so do I need to do the, if you guys have any mailbag questions, like send your, send your questions to real ones mailbag at gmail.com, real ones mailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com.

Wait, do that again? Now we're done. Hey, Raja, can you do that at Fort Thompson? No, three is the limit on that, though. Thank you, Raja, for everything today. Wonderful, wonderful stuff. As usual, Cliff, thank you so much for being the best producer in the universe. Thanks to our audience for listening.

Appreciate you guys. Thank you for the questions. And we'll see you later this week. Must be 21 plus in president, Select States, for Kansas and affiliates. with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Hallhap.com. Call 188-789-7777 or visit CCPpG.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit

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