The Ringer NBA Show - Can the Sixers Fix Themselves With a Trade? Plus: The Never-ending Kevin Love Speculation | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 6, 2020

The Sixers are 3-7 in their last 10 games—is the floor really dropping out from under them, or are they not suited to win regular-season games (1:07)? Plus: Where will Kevin Love end up? Are the Hawks just the Process Sixers but worse? And should the Thunder move Chris Paul? Hosts: Chris Ryan, Justin Verrier, Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. We've published some great episodes in the month of December, including a rewatchable with Quentin Tarrantino on Dunker. Sean Fennessey set down with Greta Gerwig to talk about her new film Little Women on The Big Picture, and Adam Sandler and Kevin Garnett appeared on the Bill Simmons podcast to talk about their newest film on Cut Jems. Happy New Year from The Ringer. Basketball is very good. The Nuggets should trade no one.

The Y should rest even more games. The Knicks should build around Marcus Morris. Basketball is very good. Hello, and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. My name is Chris Ryan. It's group chat. My group today, as it always is, is Justin Verrier. Hello.

And Jonathan Charks in Texas. What's up, Charks? What's up, guys? I wanted to talk about the winter of discontent. We get out of this holiday season. The Phil Specter music is put back in the ornament chest. nobody is happy nobody is feeling giving anymore

everybody is mad well speak for yourself no I'm talking about these NBA teams because for a while Justin and I were like oh you know there's no drama this year you know where's the storylines where's everywhere and then you went to Philly

and then I well I mean it just didn't even correspond with that we were fine in Philadelphia yeah but now a bunch of teams broke themselves over the last week or so so you got the Sixers three and seven in their last 10 losers of four straight guys taking shots at Simmons not so veiled shots

at Simmons and his reluctance to shoot. They lost to the Rockets on Friday. I get the feeling like I'm the only person who spent us Friday night watching the Rockets and the Sixers. Charks, did you? I caught a little bit of it, not the whole game, though. What did you do otherwise?

I have a wife, Chris. Yeah, and I have a dog now. Okay. All right, I was at a bar by myself watching the Sixers Rockets. It sounds like a great time. It was okay. I was there with like,

there was a Lakers fan there who was really feeling himself. Did people accost you? And like when the Sixers go down and they're like, Chris, look at it, look at this. Like at the bar? Yeah. No. Nobody know who I was.

He's not as famous as you, Justin. But, you know, so the Sixers had basically, they never looked like they were going to beat the rockets. They got it within like six or eight. But it was a microcosm of what's been going on, which is that this is a team capable of playing really good defense. They have a couple of elite defenders. And they look completely close in their half court offense. There was a moment I wanted to just mention this is just great stuff to start the week.

By the way, welcome the Ringer NBA show. Welcome to 2020. I wanted to mention this one moment where Rockets were in Half Court, Eric Gordon, Austin Rivers, at the top of the key. Austin Rivers, just kind of like small, like six foot pass over to Eric Gordon. Immediate touch pass back to Austin Rivers,

three-point or top of the key switch. And I was like, oh, I haven't seen that Sixers ever have a play like that this season. It's like a level of, like chemistry and kind of freedom that the rocket seem to play with, that the Sixers just completely lack. Now, part of that is just because they don't have those kinds of players. I think if they had five Trey Berks, there'd be...

Two guys who can shoot threes. Yeah, they have touch passes out coming out of their ears. But that's just kind of where they're at. And it's obviously starting to... The cracks are starting to show a little bit, because you've got Josh Richardson and Al Horford, both expressing their displeasure with the accountability of the team, Horford with his role on the team.

And Bede said that the losing was taking a top of, whole one. It's like it's been four games, dude. Just fucking relax. Right. And meanwhile, it seems like a lot of the focus is coming in on Simmons. And this is now, you know, it's not just the Sixers. We've seen some sort of discontent happening in Denver over the last couple of games. Obviously in Cleveland, shit is going really wrong. Trey Young kind of complaining about like his supporting cast in Atlanta. So it's like, it's starting to, teams that are not good or teams that are not playing up to their potential are starting to make that known.

Yeah, I think the biggest issue is, as you mentioned, the sky isn't really falling here. It's just a losing streak. The thing that really gives me pause and really makes me worry about them going forward is that and Bede is taking this one situation and really like fed into it. It's almost like a fight with the significant other where it's like it's just a minor inconvenience or small thing. They're not really supposed to beat Houston on the road. Yeah, exactly.

But he's turning this into just like a whole existential crisis. Yeah. And that is what worries about me. Because as we've talked about now for two years, there does seem to be this like collision course happening with Ben and Joel and it hasn't gotten better and it doesn't feel like Joelle feels like it's getting better. That's the most important part. Sharks, do you think that Embed is right to be this upset about what's going on?

I think he's looking at all his numbers going down. Right? he's like he was an MVP candidate last year. Now they got a bigger team around him and he's not. He's 25. He's like, this guy, Ben, I mean, he's going to give him my way. Yeah, that's a really good point because it does feel like Joel is fighting multiple fronts right now. Or yes, he's also like trying to figure out the Sixers and his fit with Ben making the best of that.

But there's also like tons of people constantly coming into the mix criticizing him for not playing the right way. specifically the Shacks, the Chucks. And so it feels like he needs to validate himself as a big man, and he also needs to validate himself on the team level. Yeah, and I think that big men can, I think big men can be complainers, you know, because there's a lot that they have to do that kind of gets overlooked, and there is a lot that has to happen for them to get the right kinds of offensive possessions. And Embed's willingness to play back to basket on the block,

I'm kind of indifferent about. I mean, he seems more than comfortable standing out there at the top of the key. And I guess the reason why he does that is because the lane is clocked by Horford and Simmons and everything. But, you know, this stuff is all happening as the NBA trade deadline is starting to heat up

and the trade talks are starting to heat up. The same thing goes for the clippers who were six and four in their last 10, but like, you know, and still have the third best point differential in the West, and I still think are easily, like when the chips come down are going to be the best playoff team,

which is really all that matters. But they lost a brunch match to the Gris on Saturday, and they needed to score 135 points to beat the Knicks on Sunday. And there's a lot of stops to start with them with George one night and Kauai the other night. And it's like they rarely have their best five ready and rocking. And, you know, as that stuff goes on and, you know, Montres Harrell after the Grizzlies game kind of did a little bit of, well, you know, the locker room isn't on the same page. You just never know how much, how real this stuff is.

and whether or not it's going to play into teams looking to make deals at the deadline. I am of the belief that games on a weekend in a metropolitan city before 2 p.m., let's say, should not count. It's just, it doesn't, those results don't matter because someone, somewhere on that roster has gone out the night before. And that's what that game against the Grizzly suggested to me. Now, they also had a really poor showing in the first half against the Knicks. it strikes me as the sort of situation where the clippers probably they have, they know everything

that they need to know about themselves at this point. Maybe they might want to augment a few things on the fringes, maybe look at a couple things at the trade deadline, but this team works. We saw it on Christmas Day where against the best team in the West,

all they needed to do was kind of turn around in the fourth and they did that. Yeah, and it's, sharks, see, the thing about the clippers that kind of blows my mind is that how often they win when they don't think

that they're playing at their best. Yeah, I think they've had their full roster for one game for that Christmas Day. I think I saw it somewhere. That was the only game all season where they've had like their whole eight-man rotation. Yeah, that's the biggest part of it. They've been like throwing in Rodney McGruder. They don't really practice. Doc has kind of complained about this recently, even though he's one of the biggest culprits in that.

But it just feels like they're mixing and matching at this point and they really haven't had their full boat. I do think it would be interesting if they did try to really. push forward at the deadline, though. Right. So what are their pieces? What are the Clippers pieces? Shamit. Shammett.

I mean, if they wanted to make a smaller trade, they could get rid of Harkless and a draft pick because they do have their... That'd be enough to get something. Yeah. Or if they just want to jump the line on Audrey Ucadala to prevent him going to a Dallas or if he goes in a buyout with the Lakers. It makes a lot of sense. Marcus Morris is another guy that's been floated for them.

Yeah. All of a sudden, Marcus Morris is like... Marcus Morris is, is that clutch? Yes. Well, no, he left clutch because of what happened. Oh, after the Spurs thing, yeah, right. Which has really gone well for him. He ended up getting money and going to New York,

and now it seems like every team needs him. Yes. Yeah, the Sixers are apparently in the Marcus Morris sweepstakes. So, yeah. This is a Philadelphia homecoming for you. So you've got the Clippers and the Sixers, both very good teams, maybe not playing up to their potential,

but I think both teams are constructed with an eye towards the playoffs, right? Yeah. Both teams have an idea about what they want to be in the spring rather than what they need to be in January. Well, yeah, that's a really good point,

specifically to go back to the Sixers here. The obvious kind of contrast for them is the Bucks, just because the Bucks are almost built to dominate in the regular season. But as we saw in the playoffs, they came against Kauai and the Raptors and didn't end up having that next level

in order to beat that sort of team. The Bucks are still that team. now seems like everything they do is almost, I don't know, there's, it's a very clear directive of how they play, where it's just driving kick, Yannis plays more like a modern big rather than Joelle who plays more like a traditional big. Do we feel like the Sixers issues are specifically regular season issues? Or do we think that there's the sheer amount of talent they have, they'll be able to figure that out in the playoffs when a lot of those guys are playing more? I think they're a perimeter playmaker away from being a serious Eastern Conference contender even.

I think that they have a team that's designed to beat Milwaukee. I don't know if they can do it in seven games. I think they can do it at home on Christmas when it's like they're jeed up to do it. But I'm not sure that they have a team that can crack that code for seven game series. Yeah, they never replaced Jimmy Butler. Yeah. It's the same issue. Like they still don't have a point guard who can play pick and roll with Joel or

Ben, really. Yeah, I mean, Embed Simmons can't run pick and roll. Like, Simmons is actually more effective as a screener right now. Right. Yeah, that was the one thing in that Rockets game,

he was doing a little more. They moved Embed out of the way had Simmons setting screens for people. Like, when he's doing that, he's obviously very effective. Yes, right. And so where they get that playmaker? Because I feel like a bunch of teams

are looking for that, or looking for that one extra guy in the back court, whether it's the Lakers who don't probably want to rely on Rondo and Caruso in the playoffs. Although last night, the Caruso show, baby.

Caruso is like... Caruso. That's a thing. Caroo showtime? Yeah, that's a thing. For you? Well, for me and also it seems like Twitter. Yeah.

Okay. Has it crossed over to mainstream Lakers fandom? Is Caruso like a cult hero? What do you think, Charks? God. He's on TV enough, I guess. I think... But if we're talking perimeter playmakers,

all roads go through Bogdanovich. That's the guy who could swing this whole thing. All right, well, we could talk a little bit about these trade targets. I want to talk about the cabs, too. I mean, needless to say, the cabs are the rivers on fire. Sure. And, you know, Kevin Love has expressed his disappointment in his situation there.

He had a blow up with Colin Sexton on the floor. He posted a image of Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker on his Instagram and said, Mood, which you hate to see that. I didn't see that. Yeah, and then he... Come on big picture. He apparently, come on in the picture, and he apparently had a,

what is one of multiple blowups he's had at Kobe Altman about the state of the team. So we could talk about the Cavs, but, you know, as we were sort of coming in to recording, the Kyle Kuzma trade talk started heating up a lot more with rumors that the Kings were interested in taking on Kuzma. Charks, what was your reaction when you heard that Bogdan might be the make-weight for Kuzma going the other way?

I think that would be a great trade for the Lakers. I think Bogdan, to me, could really swing the hole. He's a good enough player to get on a good team. If he's your third score, he's a great shooter, a great playmaker, he's a veteran. He plays decent enough defense. To me, he could really push L.A. over the top. If I was the Lakers, I do that in a second. It's probably the most terrifying trade on the board, if you're any other team, except for the Lakers.

That's exactly the type of player they need to really round out this team, because as we've seen that, Kyle Kuzma will just come on, like, once every seven games or so, and he looks good. But for the most part, he doesn't fit what they're doing. And in the playoffs, if they want to go more AD and LeBron at the five and the four, that basically means that Kuzma is your three, and it just doesn't feel like he's that perfect fit there. Having Bogdanovich is kind of like your heat check guy next to LeBron, that's incredible. You don't think that they need a point guard more than they need another shooter, But Bogdan can run point, though.

That's what makes him so good. He was running point a lot when Fox was out in Sacramento. Like Bogdan, what makes him so special? He's one of the rare elite shooters. Oh, during that run when they, like, didn't have Bagley and Fox and, like, the whole time. Yeah, they won, like, seven red games. Yeah. It's really disappointing because that means the crew show would just get pushed aside.

I mean, does Caruso step ahead of Rondo? There's the real headline there. Is Caruso higher up in the pecking order than Rondo at this point, though? In my personal, like, one, yeah. Right. But not Rhonda. That's what matters, though. Yeah, exactly.

Who are some other, let's talk about some of these other trade possibilities, because Haley obviously wrote about Kevin Love destinations last week. But even some of her destinations as of, like, a week ago, like the Portland reunion, for instance. Portland, I know are notorious for their second half of the season runs, but they kind of need to get their shit together pretty soon. Yeah, they're kind of at the point where I wonder if it makes sense to really push all in this season. Yeah.

Like, why wouldn't you just kind of pack it in and just worry about the future at this point? Especially because Love, as we've talked about, is just an uneasy fit for a lot of teams. And the issue with him, with trading for him, is just like his contract. Yeah. Like even if you find a way to like pair him with the perfect front partner, how do you deal with all the capital? applications. And his health issues. Health issues.

And his attitude. Yeah. And his lack of defense. Like, who's paying this $100 million in his mid-30s? That's tough. What about Horford for love? Wow. It's gotten that bad, Chris?

No, I'm just, it's just an idea. I'm not even sure. That just came into my mind and I said it. That's great podcast. But I think that the Sixers could make up for some of his defensive liabilities. He stretches the floor more than Horford. a better three-point shooter than Horford. I mean, it'd be like quadrupling down.

That's been fully the last three years. It'd be fun to watch. I guess if you're Cleveland... And then you reroute... Can you just reroute Horford after that? Or you do a three-way trade or something like that. Yeah, he would have to go somewhere where a team needed. I mean, maybe like a Dallas.

Uh-huh. I like it. They looked at him over the summer. Yeah, he's just a... It's a hard fit for a lot of centers these days. I mean, Andre Drummond is a guy who's come up in trade talks. Yeah, right. but be the same problem with Horford and he's way older.

You were talking about Portland as a team that might want to look at tearing it down this season maybe? When you say, so when you say like pack it in, do you mean tear it down or do you just mean like... Just don't push for it. Really? Just kind of go forward with what you have. Who doesn't push for it? You either tank or you don't, right? Yeah.

Well, just don't trade for Kevin Love. That's what he's saying. Oh, I see what you're saying. You could either really make a go for it and, like, try to do as best as you can this season, or you could look at the bigger picture and realize maybe this just isn't your year. I think that would make sense with Portland considering just how poorly they've done. On the other hand, though, I mean, the West is there for the taking. Have you seen, like, a team like the Pelicans goes on a whatever it is, six and two run,

and all of a sudden, it looks like, hey, maybe Zion comes back and they make the playoffs. Yeah, right. So, I don't know. To play the Lakers in the first round. It's hard to go all in to do that. There's that, too, yeah. Yes, right. I mean, like, that's why it's actually, like,

what the Thunderer are doing makes sense. Because if the Thunder are the 7th or to succeed, that's a more reasonable reason. Like, I can see why you would want to go all in if you were the Thunder at this point. Also, like, that's just an incredible story for them. Like, they should not trade Chris Paul. Chris, can you imagine if it was Rocket's Thunder in the first round?

Oh, my God. That would be incredible. I actually think that's a series. It'd be so much fun. Oh, my gosh. There's a stat floating around. I don't know the specifics, but I believe the Thunder

are about as good as they were last year around this time. Really? Yeah. Since trading George, Westbrook, and Jeremy Green. Yeah, and they're like among the best teams since December 3rd, I think it is.

They're 9 and 1 in their past 10. Right, and the trio of Schroeder, Paul and SGA is like a top 5 NBA trio right now. Chris, take your victory lap. This is my victory lap. I don't make a lot of calls anymore. You know what I mean? Like, I like to just try to keep the ball moving.

I'm the Alex Caruso of this pod. But when I call something and I'm right, I'm going to take a lap. And the SGA, Chris Paul, Schroeder, three-headed monster backcourt is my shit. It's so fun. They're good. And Basley's good, yeah, man.

They've been a fun story to watch. I just wonder going into the deadline, though, if you're looking at the bigger picture, aren't you still looking to be a seller? Let me tell you something. This one goes, Sam. Sam. Sam, Presti,

don't do it. Don't sell high. Let the people in Oklahoma enjoy this. This is cool. Don't trade Gallo. Don't trade Terrence, don't trade Adams. Let this team play it out. Didn't you see a thing of how there could be a buyer at the deadline?

They have so many draft picks. I know, that's the thing. Yeah, but what does that really give you? Is it just like for pride's sake that you What's the point of having a franchise then? It's a great point. I don't know. Why can't Oklahoma City be like what Portland's been the last 10 years,

where it's like this frisky team that's in the middle of the pack? Some years are better than others. And, you know, who knows? One year they might get like a nice seating break. You know, the West is the West. I understand it's hard to see anybody eclipsing the two L.A. teams to say nothing of Houston. Yeah, and they don't really have to worry about,

in the immediate, all of their draft picks that they're getting from the Clippers are probably just going to be at the bottom of the first round anyway. Sure. You can bundle those, yeah. So they have literally like 10 draft picks with the rockets and the clippers. They have to them they can even use. Right. But they're all going to end up at the bottom of the first round. So you do wonder if they are going the hard reset,

how much ground can they really make over the next two to three years? Why wouldn't it make sense just to go for it right now? Because like if they're going to be this good or if they can't fail enough in order to get into the top of the first round, it does feel like they'll be caught in the middle regardless. Yeah. But I think that there's... Yeah, there's no point in tanking to go from like 15 to 10 in the draft. That's pointless. Right. But like I think that when...

There's little things that are happening when you watch the Thunder where you can see, like, even if you just read about like the way SGA, at least right now, because like Chris Paul definitely has a sell-by date with in terms of how he interacts with his teammates. But right now, like SGA is super into Chris Paul. Yeah, Chris, you know what? I heard a story about that. They're like super tight now. Like inseparable. What was the story? Just that they were...

I heard someone, someone told me that, that they were, like, really close off the court. Yeah, and, like, I, Eric Horn was writing about this in The Athletic, but he was like, look at this clip of, it was just like an end of the first half buzzer beer, the Chris Paul hit, like, a mid-range jumper. The Chris Paul hit, like, a mid-range jumper to end the first half. I think this is last week. It might be against the Raptors or the Cavs or something. It is the Cavs because it was, like, a dead arena. And it was Chris Paul basically hit the brakes, hits, like, a mid-range jumper to end the first half. And Alexander comes running over from the far corner and, like, jumps in in in front of Stephen Adams to, like, come.

and celebrate with Chris Paul because he loves the move so much he starts celebrating before Paul even takes the jumper. And I was like, oh, these guys really like each other. This is like a fun chemistry experiment. And I understand like practically it makes sense,

oh, you know, see if you can get a buyer for Chris Paul while his contract is now somehow bounced back from where a lot of people thought it was like untradable toxicity. And now maybe a Miami goes all in on him or something like that. No, man, like you make your, run. Make the run.

So what you're saying is James Hardin was the one they should have traded in Houston? No, I do think the dynamic that's playing out with Shea is particularly interesting because Paul has a history of relating to point guards differently on his own team. It seemed like Eric Bledsoe, who was clearly the number two,

they got along fine until Bledsoe wanted more kind of asked for his way out and he ended up going to Phoenix eventually. It seems like Paul has much more of an issue with his peers. He could talk down to people, but he can't work with someone. Sure. And that ultimately is the story of Chris Paul. And it seems like that's playing out yet again where this mentorship or whatever with

Shay is really working to both of their benefits. I think, too, this is the role that actually makes sense for Chris Paul, like not going for a championship, but being more of like the guy who makes a trillion dollars and helps other players get better. Yeah. That's probably a more realistic expectation for him at this stage of his career anyways. Well, we've talked a lot about Westbrook's impact in Houston.

Considering that Paul has been not only good but healthy, do you think that the rockets have buyers or mores? I think it's the rockets are different because the rockets are traders. So it's like they... As in they trade. or they are traitors. No, I think they're, no, like, they are like day traders.

Like, I think of them almost being like, it doesn't matter if we have buyers remorse because we're only as good as the next deal we make. So I've got a theory about this, actually, with Chris Paul and the Rockets. Because remember there was a story out that Chris Paul wanted to be traded? That was, like, the rumor at first.

Yeah, I think so. And I'm thinking he might have, like, looked at the Rockets and said, James Hardin's not going to win. I don't want to stay in a corner for three years, not winning anyways. Let me go somewhere else and play my game again because this is not very fun for me.

I'm not going to win it anyways. Right. And he gets, even though SGA is technically a point guard, he's young enough and malleable enough and the Thunder are probably excited enough to get somebody with the sticker value of Paul. You can at least put on a billboard and at least say like Chris Paul in the Oklahoma City Thunder tonight,

that they can move SGA to an off ball position. And honestly, like for as much as I love watching World Westbrook play, having him out of the building allowed them to do a little bit of a tactical reset. They run so much pick and roll now. Yeah. And is it not the most Chris Paul thing to want to go to the team

that everyone says is rebuilding and just completely rebuild them into a contender within a year? Like on the one hand, I worry about Paul being kind of a ticking time bomb where maybe a year from now. Let's say he lasts this season were in November of next season.

The Thunder aren't really an elite team. He realizes he's really old. LeBron is still competing for titles, and that's just not good enough. But on the other hand, I'm like, Chris Paul, more than anything,

like to tell people to fuck off, and it would be the biggest fuck you to turn this team into a Western Conference elite team, like another Denver, just within the year of being traded to them. Yeah,

I mean, I don't know about elite, but I think that is what he's at best at. It's like making good teams better, but then you talk about, like, making a great team, a championship team, Paul at this stage

his career can't do that anymore. But he can't still do this, it's probably more fun for him too. I mean, where would you even put him? Miami is the team that keeps getting mentioned, but where would you even send Paul? This is the weird thing about this trade deadline this year. Okay, I've got where I would send him if I was like gambling,

I'd send him to Milwaukee. Badly the team, maybe it could use him. What's the deal then? Interesting. What would you have to give up? Bledso and some salaries, like Bledsoe I'll use over something. Poor Bledsoe, man. Maybe more.

I don't know. I was getting the short end of Chris Paul. If I was going to send Chris Paul, Chris Paul to a contender at the Milwaukee. Hmm. Yeah. I won't. So the two things I worry about there is,

A, it would seem to me that Chris Paul is a little bit of like it takes a while to mesh. And the Bucks thing, even though it remains to be seen whether the Bucs thing is going to work deep into the playoffs. They are really clicking. I mean, every power ranking, Bucks number one. The Bucks are routinely on some multi-game winning streak. like they are the, they have, I think, top defense second offense, right?

Yeah, they're up there. I mean, the metrics say the bucks are the best team in the NBA, so it would seem strange for them to screw with it too much. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm just thinking in terms of Paul's fit. I feel like in Miami,

it'd be more him and Jimmy playing like, who's to cut the ball in their hands, whereas in Milwaukee, he could play, pick and roll with Yannis, and that'd probably be the best way to use them. Yeah, to me, the best fit is the one that we talked about after it seemed like Miami had moved on for him,

which is the Timberwolves. Like the guy that everyone wants to talk about as a fit with Towns is DeAngelo Russell. And we'll see what the Warriors want to do with him after, you know, they get a full season of him in their system. But to me, what the wolves need is an organizing presence like Paul. They need someone like Paul to do what Paul has done to the Thunder. Because it is still a young team and Towns is such a young star

that they really need someone to make something out of the chaos. And I think that's the type of player I would target if I'm the wolves rather than a Russell who is going to introduce even more chaotic elements. Well, I mean, he's going to get his points. He's going to want to get his points on a nightly basis. At a certain point, the wolves have to look at what they have and see their record as a referendum on towns

as much as it is on the talent that surrounds them. Have you been watching much wolves, John? I keep up with them. I mean, I think you, look at them and they're just not a very good team. Like, they're playing like Josh Okoji and Jared Culver and Trevionne Graham. There's just no chance some of the guys are playing.

So to me, like, they can't look at it like this means Towns is bad. The Wolves have a new front office. They came from Houston to have Carl Towns. Right. Giving up him not be kind of crazy. Yeah, and Towns just has been hurt lately. Like, yeah, the team lives and dies with Towns and if he's not going to be on the floor, they don't have a chance. But I do wonder

if he comes back and Paul is there, if his team makes some sense. Like, if we're talking about teams that might want to push over the next half of the season, they would be a prime target for me. Oh, you think the wolf should be buyers of some sort? If towns is healthy enough. It wouldn't surprise me if they moved Covington. It went the other way.

Well, he's probably the most, in a weird way. Like, we could talk about love, talk about Coosma. The Cove deal, man. Like, that, it's such a friendly contract, and that's exactly the kind of guy, a 3-and-D guy that most teams would want. their roster. Like, name an elite team right now that wouldn't want Covington.

It's getting back in Philly, Chris. Dude, don't tell me. I'd be happy. For Tobias? Um, that's a real question. Nah, they need more of shot creators. That would be tough to get rid of one of the only guys No, I know.

It's true. It's true. Bring Dario back first. Dario's not even playing anymore. Have you seen that, by the way? He's, like, not even in rotation in Phoenix. Is he? Tough times.

They're starting Baines and... eight and together. How's that working out for them? Oh, you know. Let's talk a little bit about some of these other Western Conference teams because I wanted to ask about Denver. There's been, in the last couple of days, obviously, we've seen MPJ come back, you know, arrive, really, not come back.

I mean, he's basically been in cotton balls on the bench. And he comes out in the past five games, 13.8 points a game on 72% field goal percentage and almost 44% from 3. In 18 minutes a game. It lit up Indy, had a great game against SAC. And then in those corresponding games, I feel like there's also been a cratering of the Denver defense. Trucks, is that, are those two things correlated?

I don't know. I feel like with Denver, he's only playing like 15 minutes off the bench. So I can't blame him for the defense falling down. I think Denver's in a pretty good spot right now. And I think with Porter coming up, this to me is he next going to make a trade. They have to almost. Because they've got too many guys now. Yeah, because they have Malik Beasley not even playing anymore.

And he's going to be a free agent this summer. So the traveling for a while, I've been thinking Malik Beasley and Mason Plumley for Igwadala. Then he's a sixth man in Denver, you know, gives you good defense. He's played there before. And he can be like the leader of your bench when he wasn't Golden State. I would drive Malik Beasley from Denver and Philadelphia. Yeah, he would make a lot of... He's a really good player.

He should get minutes somewhere. He's too good to be on the bench. The problem with the Sixers, they just, like, they only have overpaid veterans. No, I mean, like, the guys that they would trade are... I mean, first of all, I don't know. Like, for Denver, they're just looking probably to get, get, like, roster spots open.

Like, John says, like, I don't even know... I don't even know what we would send in the other direction. Yeah, I mean, MPJ has been, like, a really fun story over the past couple weeks. does, it's nice because we all expected this and we've been waiting for it for so long and for him to finally get the

opportunity, it does add kind of a curveball into the whole Western conference picture this late in the season, which you don't usually get. I guess my question is... How's he been playing with Yokic? I don't think they've played a lot together, right? Right. Yeah, because he has come off the bench.

Yeah. But, I mean, he's clearly... He did start one game, though, and played really well against the Kings. Yeah, he's a scoring machine. And I think it makes them far more interesting. I just don't know for this season if it changes their picture all that much.

I mean, yeah, I think Charks has a good idea that perhaps this would make them more aggressive at the deadline. And maybe they get a guy like Iguada, someone else in there, and try to really make a go for it. Unfortunately, it feels like what they need is someone with a bit higher of a ceiling or a bit farther along in his development because I would still put them behind

the Clippers and the Lakers. Would you put them behind the Jazz? Would you put them behind the Jax? They're probably all in that same tier. But if you're really going to make a go for it, you need to make sure that on paper, you're better than the Lakers and the Clippers or just capable of beating them in the series.

I just don't know if they're ever at that point. What they need is MPJ to be two years farther down the road. Right. Well, I mean, I think that's where Iguodala comes in because then he gives you someone who can guard LeBron, guard Kauai, right? Because right now they're going to have to have Millsap do it probably or Barton.

So they're going to need that big wing to guard a guy like that. As Justin was saying, it's like to Michael Porter as a rookie, obviously. Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Ladder. Do you have enough life insurance? It's this thing we all know we need, but keep putting off because it sounds like a pain to deal with. Ladder has made getting life insurance easy. All you need to do is answer a few quick questions online. to get a personalized quote. If you qualify, they'll cover you with the click of a button. No salespeople, no paperwork, no waiting period. Just the feeling of doing something right for your family.

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Ladder-Life term policies are issued by Fidelity, Security Life Insurance Company, Kansas City, Missouri, not available in New York. Charks, you wrote a piece last week that I really liked about Donovan Mitchell's recent spike in the absence of Mike Conley. And it was fascinating for a bunch of reasons, but most of all, I was wondering if you could talk about what they will have to do when Conley comes back.

Because clearly, that was a pretty big get for them to land a free agent in a time when, you know, a lot of, or to land Conley and not a free agent, they just traded for him, right? That was a pretty big get for Utah to land somebody like Conley who they wouldn't be able to attract as a free agent normally. But obviously, they're having a hard time integrating him into the system. And Mitchell, it seems like they, Utah goes as far as Mitchell takes them.

what happens when Mike comes back? Yeah, I think the basic gist of my piece was that Utah's really playing well now because Mitchell's playing a point guard. And it's just tough because structurally, if you have Conley and Mitchell, you have two really small guards in your back court. And that moves Mitchell off the ball where he's not nearly as effective. So to me, really, whether the Connolly is there or not, like this is Donovan Mitchell's team.

He has to play point guard. He's a 6-1 guard who slashes to the basket. it, he has to be the point card for your team for going to be a good team. So how does Conley fit? I'm not really sure, but I think Conley's going to have to learn to play off the ball,

which will be really new for him. I think people definitely underestimated how much that would be a transition for both those guys. Like, Conley's had the ball and Stens his whole career in Memphis. Yeah, what a bad beat for Mike Conley. Yeah.

Our guy. Like, it seemed like he was finally going to get everything he ever wanted by going to Utah. Like, Utah in a lot of ways, is kind of the newer version. version of what Critt and Grine was, right? They play, they're plotting, they win with defense.

They're more of an old school type of team in this modern NBA. And it seemed like after a couple down years in Memphis, Connolly was going to get his opportunity to go back to that, just like Gasol got in Toronto. And now here he is, he might end up being the problem. That's like, that's rough. But that's on Utah to figure that out. I mean, like, you can't, all these teams out there who are looking for perimeter

playmakers and you're telling me that they can't figure out a way to make Conley and Mitchell work? I mean, is it a matter of staggering their minutes? That can help, but then you're not playing Conley as much, right? So it's not that I can't make it work. It's like the levels to making it work, right? Like, Conley and Mitchell is still top six team in the West. That's fine. But in a playoff series against an elite team, you're just really, really small in the back court. Yeah. And like Utah doesn't make a lot of these all-in moves. And this was supposed to be their Trump card, right? Right. They go out and they get Bogdanovich, they go out and get Conley, they really want to take advantage of this window

that they've established with this good team. And it doesn't really necessarily feel like how they're being deployed so much as it is Conley, just like the style of point guard that he's played before just doesn't really fit. Like there was talk both from Conley and Gobert about like how he was delivering his passes to Gobert were different than how he used to with Gasol, because Gasol's going to pop more. sure. Whereas, Gobert, all you need to do is lob it at the rim.

And he was almost like the very granular mechanics of it. Like he just wasn't used to lobbing it as opposed to dishing at all. Well, that's it. John, you wrote about this in your piece, but it's not necessarily even Conley versus Mitchell as much as Mitchell loosening up the rest of that team, especially Ingalls, who comes in and plays, I guess, stretch four, right? Well, he's really like the two guard.

He's like the backup point guard next to Conley. And so now you're going 6-1, 6-7, 6-6-6-8. instead of 6161. Right. So that's only the thing. And I was thinking like, so I watched a bunch of jazz for the story and I was hard to think,

really, I think they have it all wrong. Like the window isn't now to begin with. Mitchell's 23. The window is like two or three years from now when he's at his ceiling. Yeah. And it does feel like we talk about old school centers

being the dinosaurs in the NBA, right? Mm-hmm. But it does feel like... Small guards. Small guards, right? And it does feel like we're like a lot of teams their best approach. is to lean into these score first guards as their primary ball handler,

which mitigates a guy like Conley, who is more on the ball and getting other guys involved, a little bit more passe. He's obviously a very versatile player. He could work with Mitchell in an ideal setting, but it just seems like both for Mitchell and the Jazz, the best approach is to lean into him as some version of your heart and your Bradley Beale.

Right. So I do wonder, like, I mean, the Wizards, another prime example of that, the Charks and I have talked about in the past. Like, obviously, John Wall is a complicated picture, and, like, he's going to be that way regardless. And we don't even know, like, what his athleticism is when and if he comes back.

Sure, but even the game feels like it's going away from that working. Sure, right. I wanted to talk a little bit about another team that's been sort of surging in the West, which is the Pelicans. So, according to Griffin, Zion, Zion will play when he is ready,

but he will be a rise. to a team that has a little bit better prospects than the one that's, you know, that we've seen for most of the season. Pelicans are six and two. After losing 13 in a row, they've gone six and two. I think this is basically the best run of Lonzo's career that we've seen recently.

And they've turned things around with favors. They are seven and three when he plays more than 25 minutes and five and 21 when he doesn't. And they had the worst fives in the league. That was, you know, they were playing like Jackson Hayes. and Jalil O'Kafour. Yeah, Jalil, man, it's over for him, unfortunately.

So tell me a little bit about this New Orleans Renaissance, Justin. They're back, baby. Uh-huh. Or it seems like, I don't know. They're here more than they're back. Yes, they've arrived to mediocre. I don't really know what to make of the Pelicans at this point because just before this kind of hot streak,

where I believe they went on a six and two run, they'd lost the 13, like 13 games in a row, which is the worst that... It has ever been. Is gentry going to make it? Right. Yeah. And like I've seen some pretty bad Pelicans basketball in my life, which is like a weird thing that I'm able to say now.

But this was the worst. It just things weren't working and on top of that they were all young. It just feel like they figured things out. I do wonder even though if the West is wide open, if even they have enough at this point. To get to the eight seat? Yeah. Probably not to get past like. San Antonio's experience, right?

So I did a story on them for a Tuesday, and so I kind of got to look at a little bit. And I think they did kind of figure something out. Because what's been going on is the big change has been with favors at the five. And then you have Ingram is shooting threes now. Lonzo is shooting threes now. And you still have Drew and JJ Reddick

and Josh Hart and Etouin Moore. So you have all these perimeter guys. They can all offend but Reddick. They have multiple creators. The problem, like Chris was saying, was that they had favors that sent, but favors out, they had a 19-year-old center, Jackson Hayes, who kept being in foul trouble. Then they had Julio O'Kefofer playing huge minutes.

Like, think about that. Yeah, I remember. Like in 2020, Jill playing big minutes. That's just going to be, I think they were like minus 10 with him on the floor. And behind him, they had Nicole O'Malley, who was a European stretch big man at center, and they're minus 12 with him. It's all about going back to basics, baby. Get favors in there.

Get those guys out of there. And then if you put Zion at the five and you go Drew, Reddick, Lonzo, Ingram, Zion, that's a really good team. But then how are you going to win if you don't have favors on the floor? Well, he's just the center position, right?

You're playing a better center in Zion. That'd be the idea. I don't know. I do agree with you. You're always so skeptical about New Orleans. Any false dawn. I'm too close. Yeah.

I love them too much. No, I think Charks has a point like they're finally healthy and it does feel like that is a big part of it. favors just was never available in the first half of the season. Lonzo, another guy who's dealt with a lot and even like Josh Hart. At the same time, like, these are guys who have had injury issues in the past, Lonzo specifically.

And so I don't know how much you can count on Lonzo to be there. Yeah, quite frankly. And I like Chris do wonder, like, how much, like, what is the ideal amount for favors to play? Is he only a 25 game a minute player? And then, like, do you play him with Zion something? times or how they also just don't know what Zion's going to be or if he's going to be able to stay on the floor that's the biggest one of my fucking favorite athletes of the last 18 months but like he basically like comes and goes like the wind i mean like he he was an exploded shoe away

from not playing from Duke much at all and hasn't played uh hasn't played for new orleans in a regular season yet this season so it's like i need to see that zion can stay on the floor for the rest of the season, essentially, before you start getting into how much of the five is he taking from Derek favors? I did want to ask a more broader question before we get out of here, which is that some of the teams that we've been talking about

as kind of coming off the rails a little bit here, the Cavs, to some extent, I mean, we didn't really talk about Atlanta today, but Atlanta. New Orleans seems to have kind of found their footing when they got away from playing guys like Jackson Hayes too much, and they haven't had Zion this season, And so the youth revolution in New Orleans seems to be mitigated somewhat by like guys like Derek Favors and JJ Reddick. Where are we at with turning over the keys to young teams too early?

Because I think that that's kind of an interesting storyline this season because, you know, I think coming into this season, we're so excited about like, oh, you know, Atlanta and even teams like Orlando and stuff like that. And, you know, over and over again in different teams, the Bulls, you know, with the expectations. exception of Memphis, who's a pretty good field good story. Memphis is like the one feel good

story that's driven by youth. For the most part, teams that are driven by youth are like really struggling in the NBA this season. Even the wolves.

Yeah, I think it's... Well, I mean, the Mavs. That's a youth team. Yeah, but the Mavs it's, it's Dantitch who's played in the European

Super League, surrounded by pretty savvy, like Brunson... Is an older draft pick. Yeah, no. And yeah, it makes sense.

I think the Pelicans are the more interesting example, just because some of their veterans are way more established, and you're at the point where in any other situation, JJ Reddick should probably be playing for a team that's looking to win a title. And Derek Favors, another guy. And so they have the more interesting balancing act to do, especially because they're still trying to figure out their G-League situation.

It seemed like it made them- What do you mean by that? They're still trying to figure out their G-Leaks situation? Do they have a G-League team? Well, they're currently, I believe, working with... No, they have their own team now at the G-League showcase. It was the Erie Bayhawks. That's what it is.

The Erie, like, Pennsylvania Bayhawks? Yeah. That's not very adjased to New Orleans. They're slowly moving it down... Down the Mississippi River. Yeah. It will eventually get there, but for now, they're just like... They're just got a G-League team on a riverboat, like pulling their way down towards

New Orleans. He's going to Birmingham eventually. Okay. It's Portland and Denver teams on a G-League team. Okay. those two. Yeah. But they were getting Hayes and Nikiel Alexander Walker reps at the NBA level.

And you think going forward, if Zion's window for like really hitting it is like two years, three years down the road, then those guys, those reps that they were getting would pay off around then, right? Sure. But all of a sudden we're saying like, hey, the eighth seat is wide open. Favor is really playing well. JJ is really playing well. And all of a sudden, Hayes and Nikiel just like aren't playing. Yeah.

So how do you balance that? Especially because Zion, like, how do you balance it with Zion? How many minutes do you play Zion? They should have Zion on the Jomarant program. Yes, probably. I mean, I don't know the science behind any of this, but, like, that sounds right. That's never mattered before. Let's not worry about that.

Right. Charks then, why does it, I mean, Memphis in some ways are just playing above where we thought they might be. Well, the great Taylor Jenkins, Chris. Coach of the year. That's right. But is there any secret sauce in Memphis, or is it just that their players are better than these other teams players? Well, I think, too, you have to look at injuries and how, like, one player could affect everything. Right? Atlanta, they are counting on John Collins this year.

He either been suspended or hurt the whole season. Like I'll say, with New Orleans, right? So Atlanta was playing Bruno Fernando, Damien Jones, and Alex Lennett Center. Right? Like, that's just not going to be enough. No wonder they want true. Good team or bad team or not. You have to have decent players in your position.

I think the NBA is too good to have a bad player starting, really. That's what comes on to me. If you don't have five good players, it's hard to compete. Charks, if we're taking victory laps today, do you want to talk about Brandon Clark? The great Brandon Clark, yes. Memphis is killing it. We had some stat in the slack about how, like,

Brandon Clark and Tyos Jones, like the most productive pair in the NBA or something. Just as you predicted it, man. Brandon Clark's 64% field goal shooting. Yeah, I mean, definitely he's a really, he's a great player. He's 6-8, he's an elite athlete, and he's got a really high feel for the game. NBA teams overthought that real bad.

I think the Grizzly is getting John Moran and Clark in the same draft is just, you do things like that, you can be a good team and win right away. Right. But I think that the thing that you can take from this episode that we just did is the thing that generally jumped out of me is you saying the jazz should not be trying to win now. They should be trying to win when Mitchell's 26.

You know, the same can be sent about the Sixers in some ways who accelerated their sort of window. They like, they like threw the window open right now and got out of that idea of what was that team from a couple years ago where it was like Covington, Sarich, Reddick, Simmons, Embed. You know, and that kind of like a little bit more of an organic, we're all growing together slowly as Simmons and Embed find their footing in the league. that got accelerated when they did the Butler trade

and then subsequently the Harris trade. I wonder whether or not for teams like Memphis, whether their success in this small way will make them feel like they are closer than they actually are. Yeah, Chris, I would say it like this. If you're a rebuilding team, you have to decide who's your best player. Okay, or who you're building around. So if you're Utah, and it's Donovan Mitchell,

like he's a point guard. you've got to bring him players to make him, let him play point. So like from Memphis, you know it's John Morant and Jaron Jackson. So you can try to get better, but don't bring another point card. That'd be kind of pointless, right? Don't bring another stretch for it. Right. Well, these, and that's the thing is that these teams typically are not good, usually,

and they have a lot of like picks, you know, falling in that top 15, 16 in range. Look at the Bulls. This is exactly what happened to the Bulls where they're like, ah, we'll just draft a bunch of guys. And we'll have one of our coaching geniuses figuring, it out. And if you don't have a coaching genius to figure it out, you wind up with a team like the Bulls. Right. So you don't think Jim Boylan really worked a masterstroke thing? Jim Boylan is a perfect example of a guy like, I mean, you know, when you look at what's happening in Cleveland,

maybe it's not having a teacher, quote unquote, is not any better. But that's a perfect example of a guy who's not going to allow for like what are going to be natural mistakes for young kids to be making in the NBA. Yeah, one thing I've been thinking about specifically in regard to the Hawks is how it makes a lot of sense to tear down your roster to studs and get all this cap space because you present yourself with multiple pathways, right? Future flexibility. Sure. It's on the KOC soundboard where it's very helpful to have when you're trying to build a franchise from scratch, just options. You want as many options as possible. You want to have as many bites at the Apple as possible, right? But I do wonder, as the Hawks are talking about getting into the Andre

Drummond trade mix. how much that really matters versus maybe trying to strike a balance, more like what the Pelicans are doing by getting guys like favors, getting guys like JJ Reddick in there, and you're not really leaning in one way too much in order to not be able to pivot in the middle of it if things don't go well, because now they're at the point where perhaps they have to trade an asset

just to get Drummond in there before he hits free agency and then pay him. Yes. Like, to me, that's just a complete, like, misuse of cap space. If you, like, the point of having cap space is to draw elite guys down there in order to take your money. When the, like, a free agent comes along and says, I see what you guys are doing down here with DeAndre Hunter and Kevin Herder and Tray Young and John Collins, you're a me away from being really good in an Eastern conference that can often pivot soft sometimes, you know? Right. That would be in two or three years the time. But obviously the Atlanta ownership group

and the Atlanta fan base and just people sitting there and just being like, I can't watch this shit every night. And Trey Young is chief among them. Trey Young's been the most vocal, I don't want a wait guy of everybody in Atlanta.

Well, if you look at their roster, right? So forget the young guys. Look at some moves they've made. So they traded Kent Baysmore for Evan Turner. That's a massive step down. It's also like... Baysmore is also notoriously a good locker room guy who could probably keep people's heads up when they're on like six game

losing streaks. And they let Dwayne Dedman walk, who was like their starting center last year. And even stuff like they traded Solomon Hill who's playing well from Memphis for Chandler Parsons. And it's like if your back of your roster is so bad that you can't support your young guy, it's going to be tough. Whereas like if they had kept more their veterans to be like a 30, 35 win team instead of going to 15, 20, right? That's to me like the mistake they made was going too far south. because anyways, now with the way the lottery works, you don't have to be one of the worst teams need to get top three pick.

It's all luck anyways. Yeah, wouldn't they be better off getting Dwayne deadman back than going out and getting Andre Drummond? That's a really, really good point. Because, like, if you're trying to wait, if you're trying to just make due until you could strike it big,

paying Deadman whenever he's making 13 million a year, to me seems like more of a hedge than going out and getting Drummond and committing like a max maybe, next year. Well, the one good thing is, like, they can burn the money. They have so much to spend. Like, it wouldn't destroy their long-term cap sheet getting drummins.

Right. I guess it depends on what the goal is there, because what they're messaging is that this could be the next elite team, right? Like, if you have two max slots, which I believe they have available to them this summer, what they're saying is we could build the next super team, not just another Indiana Pacers. I think that is a key difference.

But I think that they have to realize that the warriors were built on Sean Livingston and Andrew Bogot and Andrea Guadala and having really, really, really savvy veteran players in there. So it's like what maybe the Atlanta should do is go out and overpay for those kind of guys. You know what I mean? Rather than paying for Andre Drummond where you're going to get exactly what you think you're going to get and probably maybe unlock a part of Tray Young's game that's not there right now. But maybe it's more like you shouldn't have gotten rid of Baysmore. And if you're going to get Evan Turner in, play him, and actually, like, have some competency. I don't know what Evan Turner did to just go completely out of the rotation. And that Parsons deal looks stupid now in retrospect.

But, yeah, like, if you think that what you did is drafted a generation of talent in Hunter and Trey and, I guess, Reddish, I guess. I don't know. I mean, like, you know, then you should surround those guys. If you think that's the young core, you got to surround those guys. with the veterans who have showed them how to play in the NBA on a night-to-night basis. Right. The longer this goes on, the more it feels like the process. Yes. Like, what is different about what they're doing right now than what Sam Hinky was doing?

If anything, this is the playbook, right down to the point of drafting a player who might not be all that good. Like, Hunter, it feels like fits what they're doing. And I kind of get the idea of just, like, assembling a team in full as opposed to... I almost think they drafted Hunter too because they were like, University, you know, he's a Virginia guy who plays hard-nosed defense

and has got some savvy and has won a trophy. Like, I almost feel like they thought they were getting Iguodala when they got Hunter. Where it's like, no,

you have to get a guy who's been in the league for like 12 years to get Iguodala. Yeah, I just, it was weird to just go for fit over talent,

especially because what they're trying to do is kind of like reach for the stars. Yes. Yes. But I just don't see how like, Cam Reddish isn't just like some version of like a Julio O'Ocalfour.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You know if we're talking about the Hawks, it's the end of the pot. So we'll wrap it up there. This week we've got mismatch tomorrow and then heat check will be on Wednesday this week. So no group chat on Wednesday. But we'll be back next week at our regularly scheduled time.

I think it'll just be Charks and Justin next week because I am out of the office. But thanks for listening to thanks to Bobby. Thanks to Bobby for recording. We'll be back. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.