The Ringer NBA Show - Carmelo Destinations, Jimmy Butler’s Future in Minnesota, and the Kawhi Saga | The Ringer NBA Show (Ep. 302)

Episode Date: July 17, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor discuss the report that Houston Rockets GM Daryl Morey spurned the Philadelphia 76ers’ attempt to hire him (0:41), landing spots for Carmelo Anthony (9:02), the Denver Nuggets’ updated roster (18:14), Ben McLemore heading back to the Sacramento Kings (26:24), Jimmy Butler turning down an extension with the Minnesota Timberwolves (30:27), and questions surrounding the remaining free agents (40:13). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Varnie and joining me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com. Is Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'Connor, A.K.K.A. Kevin O'Connor, A.K.K.A. Kevin O'Connor. I don't drink coffee because that wakes me right up. Every time you do that. I'm very excited that we're going to be doing this throughout the off season once a week so we can at least keep tabs on everything that's going on in the NBA. and a big thanks to all of the listeners that said nice things yesterday and even the ones that said mean things. The biggest story in the last 24 hours is Mark Stein's report from the New York Times that the 76ers, who have been without a boss for some time since Brian Colangelo was ousted, took a run at Darryl Morey and were rebuffed. I will tell you, Kevin, that when I first read the headline, I was like, what in the world? Because we know that this is where Sam Hinky came from.

And so what a world that would be if Sam Hinky, who walks away from that job, once they try to install the Calangelo's to work with him, then his somewhat mentor goes in and gets to follow through on. the process. I mean, obviously we don't hear about this until it was already done, right? Like, we find out after the fact. It wasn't like we saw the story, hey, the Sixers want to talk to Daryl Morey. It was the Sixers did talk to Daryl Morey, and Daryl Morey is staying in Houston. And so now we kind of know that that all took place. But I got to tell you, Kevin, I was shocked that, I mean, why not just call Sam Hinky then, right? Bring him back. Well, two things. You can't blame the Philadelphia 76ers for going for one of the better general managers in the league in Daryl Mory. The second part is I get a kick out of how you pronounce his last name.

Moray? Moray, yeah. That's how I've always said it. I know. As long as we've known each other, it's always been Morey. And you say a different, Mory. Yeah, Daryl Mory. But I guess that's beside the point.

You can't blame Philadelphia for going for him. And for Darrell Stain and Houston, it's great. I mean, Houston isn't a wonderful situation. You wonder if maybe when Chris Paul's in year three of that contract, it'll be like, shucks. Maybe I should have taken that Philly gig as Joel and Bean and Ben Simmons are heading into their prime. But you know what, man, you know, the thing with that Philadelphia job, I've heard, you know, the odds are they might hire internally, but they're clearly doing their due diligence looking elsewhere.

Mike's Aaron from the Celtics is another name that's gotten thrown around. I'm not sure he's going to leave that gig now. And honestly, Chris, I'm curious about your thoughts. If you're an executive in the league and you have a path to becoming a general manager and Philadelphia wants you, I often wonder maybe with Philadelphia, it's kind of already set. Like with Colangelo, one of the issues was that Hinky built the team, right? And now you're still on that path of what Hinky built. You're not doing it your own way.

Would you take that job knowing that like it's an easier gig or would you want a greater challenge when you're getting your first general manager opportunity. I would want that job because here's what gets you fired, losing, and you are set up to win. Yeah. Right? I mean, you even saw it last year. And there's only 30 of them.

Calangelo made some good tweaks. I mean, I know it's unpopular to say anything good about him, but the additions that they made off of the scrap heap changed that team and gave them a much greater opportunity. You know, they were not a team that was going to be a top four seed. They had a tremendous run, and I know their schedule got weaker, but they also had guys that they added to the mix that were two of their best plus minus guys for the last 25 games of the season. And so he did make some reasonable moves. Time will tell on some of the others.

And the other thing is this. Replacing the guy that replaced the guy is always easier. What you don't want to do, and wouldn't you say the curating for Sam Hinky, among the, Sixers fans is extremely high. Would we agree? Yeah. Sixers fans love San Hinky. Okay, right.

And they couldn't stay in Colangelo. And there was an extra thing because it wasn't just like he replaced him. It was like he pushed him out, right? Like that they forced him out. Well, it's like Sixers fans say, Sam Hinky died for our sins. Right.

And so now you're replacing Calangelo. You're not replacing Hinky. And so you have a chance to be beloved. That's what I would say. replacing Hinky though. You're still ultimately, I mean, you think about all these guys. I know. You're right. When you replace somebody that is beloved in any sport, it's just an extremely difficult task. It just is because you are held up against. And so it's tough if you're Bill Guthridge and you've got to walk in for Dean Smith or if you're Frank Solich.

You got to walk in for Tom Osborne or your whoever, you know, Lane Kiffin, you've got to walk in for a Phil former. Anybody, whether it's college or pro, anybody that was once beloved and now you're, you're, the next guy, you're really up against it. You're right. You changed my mind already. Like what I said just a couple seconds ago, silly, because the difference of the Colangelo thing was the fact that his father and Brian Colangelo were both kind of just squeezed into the situation pushing Hinky out, as you said, whereas this is just a flat out hiring. That's really all it is. I guess it is a little different. I do wonder though maybe general managers would rather have a job that's a little bit of a challenge. But then again, as you said, the job security

factor. With Philadelphia, you were set up to win for not just the next couple years, but for a very, very long time, a very long time if you pull the right strings along the way. And you know what? Even with this team right now, Philadelphia is not the favorite in the Eastern Conference. It's Boston moving forward. As of right now, Boston is the favorite for the foreseeable future. So there's still moves that need to be made by whoever is the next Sixers general manager, whether that's tough decisions and trades, deciding on who to move and who not to move. Some of the like Markell Fultz, things like Ben Simmons shooting with the wrong hand, draw and

and bead conditioning and continuing to improve his offensive efficiency. The team's not totally set. They still have cap space moving forward. They have more future picks coming in. There's big decisions that need to be made. So I do think it's still a challenge just to, I guess, answer my own question earlier. And really,

I actually wonder the opposite is if this is a job, executives regret possibly passing on because it is so good. And maybe they just said in a meeting amongst themselves and they said, is there anybody that has a public Twitter account that's a general manager? And then somebody said, Daryl Morey, right? Because there aren't that many out there. So, I mean, you don't have to worry about Daryl having a multitude of burners because Daryl has his own

and he uses his name. That at least checks that off the list. But him with the prior relationship with Hinky is just kind of bizarre. It would kind of be full circle. right? Yeah, well, it even said in Stein's article, the people around the league were surprised by this. Like of all the people, you're going to go to probably the, probably without question, the guy with the best relationship with Sam Hinky, of all of them? Which team is closer to a title right now, Chris? Is it Houston or Philadelphia? Houston. I don't think that's, am I assuming Capella's back? Yeah, sure.

Yeah, if I assume Capella's back. Yeah, that question was posed in, um, our NBA slack yesterday at the ringer. And I agree with you, Houston. Right now, it's like I listed some of the questions with Philadelphia earlier. They're probably better set up long term, but right now Houston's closer to a title.

They're like a Chris Paul injury away from going to the finals and beating Cleveland. They went seven games at the Golden State. The only thing that would concern me a little bit, is it fair to say neither of those two teams have gotten better this offseason thus far? Oh, that's fair, for sure. And possibly worse, very possibly.

Yeah. Oh, I mean, look, Houston's too long. at Ford, those can't be overlooked. They're going to need to be replaced at some point between now and the trade deadline or with waivers like last year with Philadelphia picking up Erson, Ilyossova, and Marco Bellinelli. Those guys are going to have to be replaced at some point. And so far they haven't been.

There's time, though, that the team building process doesn't end on July 17th. It ends when waivers are over. That's when it ends. Ends at the trade deadline. Right now is not that time. So Houston is time. But yeah, those guys are important. and they're going to be missed.

The Carmelo Anthony thing's still hanging out there. Would you like that fit in Houston? On paper, yes. Last year, when the Carmelo rumors were swirling, I remember pitching my editors like, hey, you know, I think this would be a great fit for Houston, you know, if it happens, this is my idea for how I would cover it. And it didn't happen.

He ended up going to Oklahoma City, and I covered it basically the same way, where it's like, hey, playing alongside Russell Westbrook and Paul George is an opportunity for Carmelo Anthony become the team. Team USA version of himself. Spot-up threes, trying harder on defense, cutting, screening, all this type of cool stuff. And it didn't work out. It just didn't work at all.

The Team USA version of Carmelo Anthony wasn't good in Oklahoma City. Maybe things would be different in Houston. I have question marks, especially after last year in OKC, but I'd still be very, very intrigued to see it. I think Houston could do a lot of creative things with him, either as a screener. Let's imagine this. Like instead of Ryan Anderson setting those little slip screens,

at the top of the key and popping for three. If you have Carmelo Anthony doing that, granted he's not as great of a shooter as Anderson, but he is better at attacking off closeouts. I think he would add a new dimension to their team, but then again, I thought the same damn thing of Oklahoma City, and I was dead-ass wrong about that. So I don't know.

I do think he's worth a risk. He adds a little bit of variance to their team, and what did Darrell say last year, Chris? What was it? We need to raise our risk profile or something along those lines. That's what I think Carmelo Anthony would provide for the Houston Rockets if it happens. And De Antony's creativity works so well for Carmelo and Anthony the first time around.

He quit his job because everybody's publicly admitted it. And also Carbello really known as a screen setter and all around team basketball player. What in the hell are you talking about? Isaac, this is where you're supposed to come in and go, he's whoa. Isaac, come on, sing it. Carmelo Anthony setting screens. was a good one, Kemp. Come on.

Okay, so I just pulled up Carmelo's synergy stats from last season. Carmelo, Anthony, has set seven screens in his career. He set more than that. So last season,

he finished 93 possessions, shooting, drawing a foul, or turning the ball over out of the pick and roll when he set the screen. He did well in the pick and pop. He didn't do well

and slipping the screen, a similar motion as a pick and pop. It depends on how it's defined by the synergy video team. 93 is. 93 is. The numbers are you said... Put this way.

The numbers aren't good. Did you say... 93? 93 total possessions. Wow, that's a little more than won a game. It's impressive. And he is in the 10th percentile for scoring, which is not good. But it's such a small sample.

Let's get creative, though. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Let's get creative. I realize I'm not standing for Carmelo Anthony here. I don't... I've never been a big Carmelo fan, even in his prime. My point is, is that it's,

possible. You catch him on a season where he just, he's hot. He's had seasons where he shot the ball better. He had a season where he shot 40.2% from three. He had a season where he shot 38% from three. It just so happens that this season, they caught him on a year where he shot right around his average, 36% from three. But Houston could get him more open shots, different spots of the floor. It could just be a different result, even if he is essentially the same overall player. The thing I would worry about is the amount of minutes that he's going to log on the wing because now you are then putting, you know, James Harden, who is not necessarily known as Mr. Lockdown, you're not going to have, you would now have, but that's an understatement.

You've got that front line of Paul and you've got the back line of Capella, but you know where I stood on the ability to make Golden State uncomfortable and play them in a lower scoring game. This is a added firepower, and maybe we could play them 128 to 122. And you know where I stand on that. I think that's a fool's errand, and nobody's going to beat Golden State playing fast-paced all-star game type game and trying to outscore them. The key is to try to make them uncomfortable, which you were able to do with PJ Tucker and Trevor Riza and the like. because you had four guys at minimum that were really out there grinding with Areza, Tucker, Capella, Paul.

And so you're able to withstand if James Harden isn't exactly, you know, Scotty Pippin out there. And you're adding Carmelo Anthony to that. We keep on wanting to think that Carmelo Anthony is going to be able to move into being a role player. But I'm not so sure that that is. Some guys have a very difficult time doing that, right? Including Carmelo Anthony. They didn't want to have the bench roll. Right.

And that's something, unfortunately, that I think he'll have to accept at one point. But if he starts, it doesn't mean that he has the finish, right? I know, but that can cause real problems, especially with somebody that is that accomplished. I mean, I lived it for two weeks, two weeks, and this is something that gets lost in history. But in one offseason, the grizzlies added Alan Iverson. Alan Iverson was just not going to be fine being Mike Conley's backup and sitting at the end of games. And within four games time, his quote after the game, people asked him if he was healthy. Because that's the kind of stuff you get when you are a star like that, right, or a former star like

that. They said, are you healthy? This is one of my favorite quotes ever. And he said, am I healthy? And they said, yeah, do you feel okay? And he said, my butt hurts from sitting on the bench. my butt hurts from sitting on the bench was his quote and there was a quick divorce you know what I mean like some guys that's just not I don't know it's not in them to not be what they've always been which is the man or a star

and I don't think Carmelo Anthony's willing to give up on I'm not a big star anymore that's what I'd say this is the end of that I just pulled it up. He says, I'm not a bench player. I'm not a sixth man.

Look at my resume and that'll show I'm not a sixth man. I don't think it has anything to do with me being selfish. It's just who I am. I don't want to change what gave me all the success that I've had since I've been in this league. I'm not a sixth man. And that's that. Similar to Carmelo Anthony.

Not wanting to accept the bench roll. And that's unfortunate because you think about Alan Iverson, granted that was his final season. He finished out with Philadelphia after he made his way back there. but maybe things could have been a little bit different. He was certainly declining,

but maybe moving forward he could have been a spark plug off the bench, right? 100% Alan I was beat up. You know what I mean? It was not physically there. He wasn't healthy. It was more than just his butt hurting.

For sure. So he was not physically, you know, going to be able to play a lot more years, but there's no way that Alan Iverson couldn't have given you low minutes. for a couple more years

and really changed up. He could have flipped a lot of games for a team if that was in his personality to be that guy. Same thing with Mello. I mean, he played 32 minutes per game last season, which was a career low, by the way. A career low for him. Well, listen, the other one,

I lived it with Zibo two years ago with Fisdale when Fisdale moved into the bench and it was awful because after every single game, the guy got, I mean, he was the man in town and he got asked every single game, every game. Now, he was the consummate professional about it, but even to the end of the season. But the thing was, what you have to do with somebody like that is they have to, A, swallow their pride a little bit, and B, you just run everything to them in the second unit. The second unit's theirs. So then you could keep going to them and say,

hey, your shot attempts aren't going down. The second unit is, you. You know, yours. And my God, if you could, I mean, Carmelo Anthony would blast second units. If you just made it, you know, the second unit's yours. You're the man on that when the bench comes in. Well, they did use him against some second units to be fair last year with OKC. You mean going all in, right? Like he comes out the bench with five minutes left in the first quarter, you know, and he plays until like there's 10 in the second quarter, something like that. Listen, once upon a time, Bill Walton won six men at the year playing for the Celtics. years down the road, right?

There's nothing wrong with being a six man. There's a lot of great six men in league history. One of the guys right now towards the end of his career, Manu Genoblee. Yes. Manu, in his career, has played 3.009 games. Started. Only 349 games came off the bench for 708 games.

And that's regular season only. And he's just obviously, I mean, one of the most important players of the last 20 years on the San Antonio Spurs. And he accepted that bench roll. And he flourished in it. And it was an incredible part of their team. Flipping to another guy, because we need to talk about some of the other news that's come out since last week. Isaiah Thomas, since we last spoke, ended up with the Nuggets.

Is that what he is? And is he going to be fine with that? We'll see. He wasn't a couple years ago in Boston. I remember there was a story or maybe a public comment. I'm not sure. But Danny Aange essentially said a similar thing that you just brought up about great six men in league history. He brought up the great six men in.

Celtics history in regards to Isaiah Thomas and like saying you could be one of those next guys. Actually, I just pulled it up. It was in 2015 that he actually said that about Isaiah Thomas's role as a potential six-man for the Celtics. And for the Nuggets, it'll be intriguing. And I think for Isaiah Thomas, he also needs to think about that as well. There is a benefit to coming off the bench and flourishing within your role, just like he did with Sacramento when he was a half starter. he was a half bench player and then with Phoenix he came off the bench

he flourished came off the bench when he first was traded to Boston he was fantastic then he turned into the starter finishing top five and MVP voting in 2017 it's not that long ago that guy was an elite scorer level player but to get back to that maybe you do have to sacrifice

a little bit and come off the bench for what is a pretty good I mean pretty good overall team with that Denver Nuggets roster their defense is going to struggle but maybe you can mitigate a little bit of that if Isaiah is not sharing the floor as much with Nicola Yokic. It's going to be fascinating with him because I cannot speak to what that locker room is like in Denver. I know that it will help that he has a prior relationship with Malone, their coach, but the hard part about somebody like Thomas, somebody like when we talked about Iverson, somebody like when we talk about Carmelo, is, and especially with, in the Thomas case, so accomplished.

and you know that there is massive chip on his shoulder. You're never going to get back $100 million, but that you are playing this season in order to get a big time payday. Like you're still hoping that that is out there. And so you are going to prove yourself once again this season. Well, what happens if he's not starting? What happens if more importantly, he's not closing games? And like I said, I don't know that locker room.

I don't know who's got the gravitas within it, but I know he is a very vocal guy, and an unhappy Isaiah Thomas can have a profound negative effect. And that was all the stories in Cleveland. I mean, Brian Winhorse was out there telling everyone he talked his way out of Cleveland because he went in there and he was, he was vocal and he rubbed people the wrong way in his time there. And with a young team that probably doesn't have necessarily an established leader that everybody looks to, that's the foil of this, right? He is clearly the most accomplished of the guys within that locker room. Nobody else has been all NBA.

Nobody else has averaged 30 points in the league. Nobody else has been the king of the fourth, all this kind of stuff. And he may not be that guy anymore. But his personality is still of that guy. and so what takes place if he's not starting or he's not closing and this is his one year in order to try to get a reasonable amount of money back he never did get the big payday and so I don't know man like there's a risk with Thomas for sure well you know it'll be interesting because again it wasn't that long ago that Isaiah Thomas was the king in the fourth he had one

of the greatest scoring seasons in the fourth quarter and recorded league history going back the last 20, 30 years. With Denver, of course, you have guys that are going to be on the Florida in the games, Yokic, Milsap, Gary Harris, Jamal Murray, Will Barton, like, that's your top five right there. That's your starting lineup. I'm not sure who Isaiah Thomas plays over in those situations when you're paying Will Barton so much money. When Nicole Yokic is your best overall player and Paul Millsap is a two-way fixture of your

team, maybe Isaiah Thomas is an offensive weapon and they pull them off on. defensive possessions. But then again, that creates complications with timeouts and situations and all that type of stuff. But I do wonder

who he plays over to close those games. But then again, man, like, really for Denver, you know what it is? It's just a gamble. Again,

it's like with Carmelo Anthony earlier for Houston. Like, he is a high variance player where he might swing things your way if you catch him on a good year. Isaiah Thomas,

we don't really know what player he'll be coming back. Again, from the injury. We don't know what type of player he's going to be. But if he is similar to that guy,

you know, when he finished top five in MVP voting and he was an all NBA player, well, you know what, man? Like, you're going to love to have the guy on your team, but if he's a total shell

of his former self, well, either he's going to have to accept that or they're going to have to find somebody else to take on the backup point card role. It is a weird deal because I thought last year that one of their issues,

I thought they could have won a good amount of games if they would have just had somebody they could settle them down and get them into some sets when, you know, so many of the games come down to the last two, three minutes of the game, right? And they kept playing without a point guard, and they did it all year. And I can't tell you how many games I watched. And at the end of Denver games, it just appeared to be an equal opportunity, whoever got the ball. And sometimes they throw it to Yokic and run an offense through him. But whether it was

Barton, or whether it was Harris, or whether it was Jamal Murray, none of those guys were elite at making other people better, right? Setting up somebody else for a really good shot or running a set. And sometimes there is a real value to just having a point guard that can settle everything down and get you into something good, you know, where you're just running your basic picking rolls and I'm either kicking to the corner, I'm going, or I'm picking a pop. And it just seemed like so many times it was scatterbrained at the end rather than settled down. And, I mean, Isaiah Thomas is another one that is,

typically if I've got the ball I'm jacking. So we'll see. We'll see. You know, with that team, you have multiple playmakers. Nicola Yolkich is the best passing big man in basketball. Jamal Murray can run a little bit of pick and roll. Will Barton is a funky player who can run pick and roll. Isaiah Thomas, yeah, he can take on that pure point guard role.

But even within this team, you don't need a pure point guard. Like even Isaiah Thomas, he was arguably, his last season in Boston, he was arguably better off ball. than he was on ball. As great as he was on ball, Brad Stevens running him through screens, dribble handoffs. All the weird stuff they did with him off the ball was arguably more effective

and more of efficient of a play than it was on ball. And I think that's the misconception. He's not going to come in and necessarily steal the ball away from Yokic and Murray. And those guys, he can play off ball and compliment them as a shooting weapon.

And that's what's going to be really intriguing to see how he's utilized there in Denver. What did you think about Jabari Parker's two-year deal in Chicago? I wrote about this this week on The Ringer. I love it for both sides. For Jabari, it's a good opportunity to go home, play with a young roster. You're part of you are along a similar trajectory as a lot of those other guys.

And for Chicago, it is a one year, maybe two year chance to look at a guy who just a couple years ago was a number two pick, who was a top, top hotly recruited high school prospect, a guy who before he tore his ACL the second time, had a pretty good scoring season for the Milwaukee Bucks, and now you're installing them in a system that emphasizes shooting the three. It's a little bit more modernized, a little bit more motion-based. Maybe Jabari Parker can get back on the developmental track with the Chicago Bulls. Yeah, he has concerns about defense and passing, and there's a little overlap with Zach Levine on the offensive end of the floor.

But guess what, man, he's another guy to add to their stockpile of young players, and maybe one of them pops. how about this for timing Kevin we got some breaking news I know what this one is I wasn't even going to bring it up it involves the Grizzlies are you moving to Memphis to cover the Grizzlies

because in between Kyle Anderson and now Garrett Temple it is on Sacramento is finalizing a trade that's going to send Garrett Temple to Memphis for Ben McLemore, Deontay Davis and Cash League sources tell the SPN I will tell you this

Memphis was able to find the one team that still really likes Ben McElmore, which is Dave Yeager liked him. He likes Ben McElmore. His season last year in Memphis was an unmitigated disaster. And there's only one year left on his deal. And Deontay Davis, I mean, it was a third summer league and he just did not show. Last night, he got absolute, oh, I mean, Swanagan destroyed him.

I felt bad. I was like, you know, get in the car before he comes to locker room and beat your ass again. Because it was bad. You better run to the bus. Funny thing is, I had him ranked like 14th or something like that. And I remember, I remember thinking of myself like, geez, this is a major risk. I mean, like, this kid is like so, he's certainly very, very quiet, right? Chris, Deonté Davis.

Sweet. Oh, he, listen. Yeah, very sweet kid. Yeah, I'm not sure there's the killer rim protector in there. what I mean, right? I think that's fair to say, right? I think Deonti, and I really like the kid for certain, but I don't think Deontay loves basketball. Yeah, there's a little bit of that. That's the thing. Yeah. And I mean, I know it. And I genuinely like him as a person. And I would tell him, I tell him that, I don't think he loves

basketball. And you can't fix that. You can't fix. You can't just, you know what I mean? And this is, this is not untrue. There's never, there's never fire when watching him at Michigan State. Having him ranked that highly, I think I clearly missed or I didn't weigh that factor enough that he just doesn't have that fire. And that's one of the reasons why he fell into the draft into the 31st pick where Memphis acquired him. Oh, yeah. Everybody said he was a lottery talent. Yeah. He was worth the risk at 31.

You can't blame Memphis for taking him. It's a good spot to take that gamble. Yeah, but in retrospect, that draft is now a waste. I don't know. It depends on what Garrett Temple does. And then you get Wade Baldwin as well. Well, no, no, no. They took, they traded.

That's how the Boston pick is going there. They got Deonté Davis and then a kid named Rod Age Zagorak. Yep. Who I love another guy that I thought was pretty solid as well. Oh, good grief. For the second round. Rodais of Gorgon. I mean, no offense, but he could not beat me in a foot race.

I know. I mean, he was a solid, again, he was a solid gamble in the second round. But I'm still stunned at some of the guys that fell in that draft. like Zagorak went one pick ahead of Malcolm Brogden, three picks ahead of Pat McCaw. Yeah. Not to mention, yeah. No, right.

And one of them was rookie of the year for God. The next pick was rookie of the year for goodness. Essentially, I think this is for Memphis, a trade for a better player. Like they probably... No, this is a home run as far as... Again.

Garrett Temple. Home run! No. Hey, listen. The bar is so low. The bar is so low Listen, this guy could at least play The other two can't play

I know, exactly So I traded two guys that can't play For one that can At least I got that Yeah, it's all about It's funny, I wasn't even gonna I wasn't even gonna bring up the deal I saw the tweet earlier

And now you're calling it a home run For the Grizzlies Oh you have no idea There might be a damn parade in Memphis today Garrett Semple Yeah He definitely helps over Ben MacLamai that's for sure. There you go. And trading

Deante Davis opens up playing time for Jaron Jackson as if he wasn't going to play over him in the first place. Yeah, for sure. Let's get to one other big story that has happened over the course of the last week, which is Jimmy Butler turning down a four-year 100 million extension from the Minnesota Timberwolves.

Now, there are some guys that have gotten burned betting on themselves, i.e. Nerlands, Noel, and others. Jimmy Butler does not fall into that category. Once upon a time, Chicago offered Jimmy Butler a four-year $44 million deal. He turned that down, played out the year, became the NBA's most improved player, and ended

up signing a $90 million deal. And so Butler has bet on himself before and come out in the mega positive. Now it appears he is doing that once again. There's $100 million on the table. Saying no to $100 billion is not easy. I can imagine. But he stands too. If he comes back, has another great season,

has an all-star caliber season. He stands to make even more than that. What do you think about Minnesota attempting to lock him in for the $100 million? And what do you think of Butler saying, I'm good. I'll play this one out and see what happens next off-season. You know, for both sides, for Minnesota,

it's a no-brainer to make the offer. and for Jimmy Butler, it's a no-brainer to turn it down because next summer you could potentially be eligible for around five years, $190 million from Minnesota or anywhere else across the league, four years about $145 million, $140, $145 million. So you'd be set to earn about $50 million more next summer just by waiting to sign the deal.

There's no reason for him to sign the deal now, as tough as it might be to turn down that money. You already just signed a $90 million contract last time around. Right. You might also want to not lock yourself into Minnesota. You might want to look at your other options that are out there like the Los Angeles Clippers next summer. That one just kind of went away, didn't it? The whole Jimmy Butler and Carl Towns stuff.

No, I'm saying in terms of like media narrative and like it was it was hot for a minute there in the summer. and then it went dormant. I'm saying the news were going. I'm not saying the relationship. I'm not saying the relationship got any better. Well, I don't think it's going away, though. I mean, remember last December when we talked about the Minnesota Timberwolves? And, you know, I talked about something.

We discussed, like, some of the chemistry issues that I was hearing about within their locker room. It's not like it's necessarily going away. It just came back. At the time, I remember the, you know, it was like a surprise that there might have been issues within the locker room. I believe I remember saying at the time it was something about guys being against Carl Anthony Towns because of his effort and his attitude. But that doesn't necessarily mean Towns is at fault. It's just there is a little bit of clashing going back and forth. And we'll see if that goes away. Maybe the fact that it's out there now, things are a little bit

better moving forward. Sometimes you need to hit a load to reach a new high. So maybe it'll be a good thing for him. That's going to be very interesting to keep track of because what if it becomes him or me? Well, it's pretty easy. It's Carl Anthony Towns. Goodbye to anybody else. It should be that easy. It should be, right? Do you agree? It should be. Okay, you're suddenly Minnesota Timberwolves owner, Glenn Taylor. Chris Vernon, you now own the Timberwolves. And Tom Thibbitton walks into your offices and he says, I need to trade one of Carl Anthony Towns or Jimmy Butler. How are you advising him? What am I getting? Okay, well, you know what I'm saying. I'm saying you're not training Carl, Anthony Towns. You're not trading him.

We're keeping Cat. Cat is part of the future. He was such a massive disappointment when it mattered most. That's what I have in my head. Yeah, he's 22. And before Butler got there, he was dropping 25 and 12 with super efficiency. And losing 60 games a year. I don't care.

In the second half of that season, I don't care. It's the rest of the roster. It's not his fault. You have to care. Well, the rest of the roster wasn't a problem in the playoffs. He did nothing. Nothing. I know he stunk.

You're right. He stunk in the playoffs. He wasn't. Like, he had any kind of, Yeah, but he was at all. Towns' fault that he had 12 shots a game. One of the best offensive centers in the league. And they feed him 12 shots a game?

I understand. It's a joke. He should be getting fed, force fed shots. And yes, you can say, and I agree with this, part of it is that Carl Anthony Towns was a little bit passive, of not necessarily seeking out a shot. You know, he's not necessarily being as aggressive as he can be establishing low post positioning. But you know what?

He is one of the best offensive centers in the game, and he should not be shooting only 12 shots a game. There should be shot. There should be plays called for him to get shots. There should be more balls being fed to him to get him the ball. 12 shots isn't enough. It's just not. I would be worried that Jimmy Butler leaves me,

and I'm back to now I've built the team around this kid being the man and I'm back to losing. Okay, well, maybe you should trade Jimmy Butler right now, but you shouldn't trade Carl Anthony Towns at 22 years old when he can sign a max contract extension to keep him locked up until he's in his late 20s. You should not be trading Carl Anthony Towns. Maybe you shouldn't have given Andrew Wiggins all that money. Maybe that was the mistake. But Carl Anthony Town...

Maybe that was the mistake. My point is that Carl Anthony Towns is not the problem. That's my point. If you trade towns, you're essentially saying goodbye to your job. Let me play devil's advocate. Listen, I'm with you. He's still young. He's way too, he's grossly talented, and I would love to, and certainly he is the younger

of the players. And so I would love to fancy myself to build around him. That being, the devil's advocate is, Jimmy Butler has been perpetually unhappy. I mean, that's true. So which is it, right? At some point, is it Jimmy Butler or is it everybody else? Well, it's not Carl Anthony Towns. Well, and, you know, Tibodeau and Butler, they're like, you know, blood brothers.

Yep. So that's the hard part, the best player on the team, or at least, how about this? The Bulldog on the team and the coach, you know, both kind of think you're soft. And it's, you know, that's a tough spot, right? Because I can imagine, I can imagine Tibido, Todd. And Butler thinking, this guy is a sissy. You know what I mean? Seriously.

I know. Yeah, maybe that's what it is. And then him being like, you know, like screw you guys. And that's why this, I absolutely believe if we were out for drinks, you know, out in Vegas with those guys, that that's what they would say. And that's where it becomes tough. They might be right. He might be a sissy.

I don't know. Towns is a young kid. He likes to play video games and hang out with his girlfriend. And you know what? He's a really great offensive center. He's fantastic. Yes, you would like for him to be a little bit better defense, a lot better defensively. Yes, you would like him to be a little bit more engaged on the offensive on the floor instead of, you know, you know, fading in and out of games.

But you know what? Like I said, before they got Jimmy Buller over the second half of the 2016-17 season, that guy was dropping like 28 points, high efficiency with 13 rebounds per season. game and over his three seasons, he's shown flashes of being a good defensive player just as he did in college. And the fact that he took a big step back on the offensive of a floor, four less shots per game, four less points per game. That to me is disappointing, knowing the type of player that he is, 42% from three last season. And 86% free torture. This guy is one of the most efficient scores at the big man position in the league. And the fact he's only, getting 14 shots per game, it's not enough.

It's not enough. That guy needs to be the focal point on the offensive under the floor in order to maximize your chances of really keeping him engaged mentally, but not only that, but improving your offense too. Wiggins is the mistake. There's no way around that. I mean, he doesn't do anything.

No, I'm with you. What do you think, Tibadoe, Taj, and Jimmy Butler think of Carl Towns being in the ESPN body issue? I mean, whatever, man. I can't imagine. I can't imagine their conversation. I never think to myself like, oh, that was a good tweet when it comes to, like, my own tweets. I always think, man, like, I, you know, my tweets stink.

But this one was a good tweet. A couple weeks ago I tweeted this, Chris. The Andrew Wingen's contract is going to be such an albatross unless he starts passing, rebounding, defending, and shooting well. Right? Like, he doesn't do anything well right now. Who wrote that for you? Me. You're like, Drake.

You got a ghost rider. No. That was a good tweet. I don't have many good tweets, but that was a good one. And Andrew Wiggins, unfortunately, yeah, I mean, it sucks, man, because, like, you see the potential sometimes when he stays engaged on defense, like, you can see how he can lock down multiple positions. But the offensive end, the passing's not there.

The rebounding is never there. He's an inefficient score, still too in love with the mid-range. His three-pointer hasn't reached the level that it needs to, 33% for his career. It's just not there, man, and they're going to pay him a boatload of money. They're dropping the bags these next couple of years, and that's scary for them because, yes, maybe he's tradable, but I'm not sure what you get back. Last two things. Do you think it works out with Boston to Marcus Smart, number one? Mark Murphy from the Boston Herald reported that it seems like Marcus Smart might sign his one-year qualifying offer, which would make him an unrestricted free agent next summer.

I mean, Marcus is going to have to realize it's a business. All right. And secondly, everything has gone incredibly silent on the Kauai L. Leonard front. Are you more persuaded now that Kyle Leonard will in fact be a spur next year? Or do you think that this is going to resolve itself before, you know, in the next month and a half? Where he ends up on a different team, I mean. I still think, you know, as, you know, we discussed in May and June.

Same thing, Chris. I still think the spurs could drag this out into training camp and maybe even into the season. No guarantees that happens. I mean, all it takes is for a team to step up and make an acceptable offer. That's all it takes for whether it's Toronto or, you know, Clippers or somebody else, Boston, Philadelphia. All it's going to take is for a team to step up and make an acceptable offer for this all to end. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if San Antonio drags us into the season. And he killed that opportunity. He really did.

Kauai. Yes, by it becoming so public that he does not want to be there, you know, life is leverage. And if you're San Antonio, it feels less like you are competing with every other team. for his services and in terms of putting together the best trade, and you come at it with a standpoint of what are you going to do? Like Stephen A. Smith has said that he may sit out if you keep him. Like you want to do this? Fine. Go ahead. Don't take our deal. You keep him. And that's where it, because it became so public, that's where it became a disaster. But maybe in the end, they will get great return, but there is no doubt in my mind that their possible return was hurt greatly

by this all becoming so public, rather than it happening behind closed doors, them being at odds, and then coming out and then just out of nowhere trading him, right? And then the story comes out. We were at odds. He didn't want to be here anymore. This is why this took place. But the fact that it all played out in public on such a massive stage, I cannot help but think that that hurt their opportunity to get great return probably very badly. I have one other thought too, Chris. Let me hear. It was pointed out on Twitter that the Kings trade with the Grizzlies,

that massive home run deal for Memphis. It opens up cap space for the Kings where now they have $20.5 million in cap space. And that's notable because I've recently heard that, and this is no surprise at all, It's been reported hundreds of times, you know, past couple months that, you know, Houston would be looking for a team to dump Ryan Anderson on that could ease the path to signing Carmelo Anthony. And Sacramento suddenly can fit in Ryan Anderson's $20.4 million deal within their $20.5 million cap. So I do wonder if... What else do they get?

Well, you've got to get something else. Why am I taking... Why am I paying Ryan Anderson $20 million from $4? And then you're paying up $21.3 million next year. So you do need to get more than that back in return. I need every first round pick for the next decade. Oh, come on. No, you don't.

You're negotiating right now, and I would hang up the phone if that's what you said. You're not getting all the picks. What is my benefit? It's just two years. Ryan Anderson's not horrible. What? Why do I want him? Well, why do you want him?

Because you're getting something in return. Yeah, I know. What am I getting? Whether it's a young player or whether it's, I don't know, man. You're getting something back. Whether it's a young player or a family. future pick, you're getting something. A future pick. Or it could be, you know, the flip side is like what Chicago did. They opened up

more cap space and now they're about to make a more wealthy offer sheet onto one of the remaining restricted free agents like Clint Capella. They should ask for that, what's his name, Joe Chi, the Chinese center, they should ask for him so that Vladi Divox's master plan of adding 16 centers can come to fruition. I like Joe Chi. Of course you do. You like everybody that has ever been attached to Philadelphia and Houston. That's not true. You've never said a bad thing about either, any player on either of those two organizations. What are you talking about?

It's true. Wait, Philly or Houston? Yes. What are you talking about? Every time I talk about Ben Simmons, I say Ben Simmons shoots with the wrong hand. Every single time. Good grief. You don't slander Ben Simmons.

Yeah, you can't. Yeah, what are you talking about? Ben Simmons is great, though. Yeah, you nitpick. You nitpick, Ben Simmons. Because I'm nitpicking to say a guy can't shoot. But I even thought about it last night when I was watching Summer League. I'm like, oh, God.

I was like, I wonder if I was like, this guy is. We're just talking about Markle Fulte eat cheese fries last week. That was a Colangelo guy. Oh, you mean a hinky guys? Yeah. Oh, come on. Oh, God. Like, you know what I mean?

They could sign Robert Coving did a $300 million. And you'd write how great it was. That's not true. It's like the bright. Hey, it's like the bright. Hey, by the way, oh, I forgot. I got to get this in here before we get out of your day. forgot about your bright future sons.

Josh Jackson got like 12% from the field. Dragon Bender had a couple more points than I did at Summerlee. They stink. They stink. And they just paid Devin Booker at $900 billion. So they're bright future sons are in great shape. The sons, I said to somebody at Summerlee, I think it was a fan. He was like, thank you for, you know, being the only national writer who, like, supports the sons.

That, like, sees their bright future. And I was like, yeah, no problem, man. Like, I mean it. Like, I really think the team has a bright future. And I said to him, I was like, you guys are like the Golden State Warriors or Summer League. And they got eliminated in like the first or second round. Of course they did. Dandre ate at flashbacks of playing Buffalo.

And I love Josh Jackson's new look with the sleek hair, but he couldn't hit a shot to save his life. Jackson, Jackson, I never loved him in the drafts. never loved them and the shot again like you know i mean he can at least shoot at a competent level like a below average level but um he's got a long long way to go in order to become an effective shooter he's not there yet i would have taken isaac over him for our phoenix last year last thing uh there is the summer league final that is going on tonight and i will tell you that i was intensely i have been intensely impressed with josh harrow throughout the Summer League.

I think without question, he is going to end up the Summer League MVP and watching him last night. And again, you can just say it's just Summer League, but this is a guy that is very, very good on both ends.

He is one that I regret a little bit going into the draft, not going to war for him. He's an example of one of those guys that you watch in college, and he is clearly good, right? And then the ageism comes into play, And it's like, yeah, but what is he going to be?

You know what turned, I don't want to say sour, but you know what cooled me on Josh Hart and whether or not I thought he was going to be able to really be good at the next level. If you go back, his combine was an absolute disaster. Oh, his first one, his first year especially, he was horrific. No, but I mean, even his, like, you know, you saw some of these like vertical leaps, right?

And guys were posting 40-something inches, like even a DeVincenzo or something like that, right? his was like 27 or something. I mean, it was not, it not only was it not like high caliber athlete, it was you could find high school kids. And then like the shuttle drills and like just the numbers that came back, he is a great example of be wary of the athletic testing sometimes

because I remember reading all about his athletic testing and being like, geez, man, I really liked him, but he just may not be good enough. enough athlete. If he can't, if that's as high as he can jump and that's as fast as he can move, like he might be one of those guys that was just a great college player. And, because I always liked him at Villanova. But man, oh man, it looks, watching him, you know, throughout this summer league, the Lakers, I think they really, I mean, there's no question. They nailed that pick, considering where they took him. Oh, no doubt. I underrated him for sure. I had him ranked 35th for

some of the same concerns you just mentioned, Chris. And he's come, it was just two years ago, his first time after his junior year at Villanova, when he struggled at the Combine and he went back to school, he was better as a senior. And then he did better at the Combine the following year, even though, as you said, the athletic testing still wasn't great. Yeah, there was a lot of it was ageism with him,

22 entering the draft. Athleticism still wasn't great, creating his own shot. But you know what? That dude balls. And we're seeing that right now. He balls. Flat winner. for sure.

And so anyways, I suspect he will win the Summer League MVP. And I think the Lakers will probably win the Summer League once again. There's a rematch of all things. A rematch of last year's. Oh, it's a rematch. I didn't realize it was a rematch. Yeah, I knew Lakers. Oh, cool.

Same two teams. Yeah, interesting. That played in last years. Funny thing is, is Hart makes sense based on his skill set to start for the Lakers. Oh, yeah. He makes sense, like ball, heart, Ingram, LeBron Center, McGee or Zubatz or Mo Wagner, the best center in basketball. It'll be intriguing to see what type of lineup there run out there.

But certainly heart starting makes some sense. I would like to see that. He could be a fantastic role player for sure. Yeah, definitely for a long time. You get a lot of open looks with LeBron out there. Yeah, long. And he also, the thing I like about him is he passes the ball. Oh, yeah.

So many of the guys that are really successful. in Summer League or are successful in summer league just because they're jacking all the time. But he's a good team basketball player. I really like him. I do. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. I'm glad we're going to be able to chat throughout the summer

over the course of the next couple weeks. Inevitably something will happen. I have to head to go get my Garrett Temple jersey made. Hell, yes. Can you get me one too? The Garrett Temple era begins. I think this is a franchise changing move for the Grizzlies. Garrett Temple.

I can see it now. Statues outside the forum. Tony Allen, Zach Randolph, Garrett Temple. All right, that's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk to you next week.