The Ringer NBA Show - Carmelo Is Back, and He's the Same As Ever. Plus: Luka, Harden, LeBron, and Giannis Tangle for MVP Front-runner | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 20, 2019

We dive deep on the Blazers' roster building and how it created a need for Carmelo Anthony just two months into the season (1:16). Then, Jonathan Tjarks joins the pod to discuss Luka Doncic’s gaudy box scores, James Harden being a 6-foot-5 Wilt Chamberlain, LeBron and Anthony Davis sharing the MVP narrative, and Giannis representing the Eastern Conference (19:05). Hosts: Chris Ryan, Justin Verrier Guest: Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show on the Ringer podcast network is brought to you by State Farm. Just like basketball, the game of life is unpredictable. Talk to a state farm agent and get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected and help you handle whatever life throws your way. You know, I think that the people of Portland probably did not expect Carmel and Anthony to be a trailblazer. Here we are. Yeah, I was blazing a path to the playoffs. Well, we'll see.

I do think, one thing I was wondering, do you think that Mello, like, would you ever have imagined, like Carmelo feels like he felt like a rocket, felt like a Nick, you know? I don't know if he felt like a nugget, but I appreciated it. He's back in the mid,

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should shoot more mid-range jumpers. More players should have Trey Young's hairstyle. The Utah Jazz name actually makes sense. Basketball is very good. Hello, and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's with Justin Verrier.

Hello, friends. And I'm Chris Ryan, and we will be joined by Jonathan Sharks shortly. J.V., what's up? It's raining in Los Angeles. It's Wednesday morning. I thrive. Yeah. It's like we've all become Portland. Right. We've all become. We're all going on. We're going to talk about the Blazers and the return of Mello.

We're going to talk about Luca Donch, which is MVP run that he is on right now, and whether or not that's real or not. KOC has a really good piece on The Ringer today that asks that very question about, he asked that about lots of different things in the NBA, but he addresses the Luca MVP debate. I think Stiney Moe is on the Bill Simmons podcast. He's back. Talking about Luca.

So Luca's in the news. He's in our public consciousness. But we're going to start off group chat from, you know, we like to, we'd like to come from a place of personally held beliefs and what we believe in passionately. And, you know, my personally held belief this week, it's more of an apology. I feel like I have to address something on this podcast.

This is big. As some of you may know, I appear semi-frequently on a podcast called The Hottest Take, which is on Spotify, and it's usually like five or six minutes, and it's like ringer staffers sharing their hottest takes and then people yell at each other. And last week, I appeared on a,

or this week it was aired, but last week I recorded a podcast with Bill Simmons, Joe House, and Roger Sherman, in which Bill Simmons said, what's the deal with music at NBA arenas? Why do we keep playing in the club and everybody clapped your hands

and this incessant noise? And it's like, can't we get past this? And then I, I think, got even more militant, was like, stop playing music. Let the symphony of basketball be the soundtrack to your experience.

Interesting. I'd like to apologize for that, too. Last night, I went to the second. of back-to-back staple center nights from me which is quite quite a journey

and I went and saw Lakers Thunder and I was you know I went as a civilian so I was seated in just the regular seats

with the Lakers faithful and about five minutes into the game the foul was called and Chris Paul had some thoughts on the foul call

and the guy right in front of me just screamed out shut the fuck up CP3 little ass trick and I was like you know

what? I can see why we have music now. I was not expecting this at all. I expect you to launch into a Ben Simmons rant. I have a Ben Simmons thing completely prepared. But I did want to just say, I don't want to do an L.A. thing, but I just was like, Lakers fans, man. You guys still got your fastball. Congratulations. And you know what? You're really feeling it. And it was a very impressive victory last night. I got CAD and LeBron for the first time live together. LeBron looks phenomenal.

LeBron looks like friggin MVP Adrian Peterson out there right now. Like his fast breaks were amazing. Yeah. They look like a really competent basketball team.

So my apologies for saying you guys were going to go to 5 and 10. My apologies for suggesting that we stopped playing Kesha and 50 Cent incessantly during NBA games because I remembered why. I think the Lakers among all

arenas, like, they do the best job of pumping in the music. Because they also have a mix, I think, since LeBron, of like playing West Coast specifically rap, but also weaving in the history of playing the organ and playing songs on it. Yeah, TDE was, like, Top Dog was sitting right

next to the bench. They were playing... The guy who runs the Kendrick's label, Top Dog. I have no idea who this is. And, like, it just felt very, like, the, like, staple center was back a little bit. Like, like that, like that Fortress Lakers thing was back. My deeply helped personal belief about the Ben Simmons thing was just that like Ben Simmons is not the problem here.

You just want to bury that. No, I think this is going to be a theme of the entire pod, though. Because I, you know, I think like we're almost about 15 games in. And I think we're doing a lot of like, you know, are we surprised by this? Are we, should we panic about that? Is there anxiety about this? Or what are we impressed by what's real? But I was thinking a lot about like how much turnover there's been over the summer,

the era of player movement, everything we used. always say, and watching that play itself out. And I think that there was on display, it's been on display for the Sixers, because I think for as much as like, Ben Simmons is not taking any three-pointers this year, so I'm going to lose our bet, I bet you and I have about how many attempts he has this year. It's tough. 25. It's tough. I'm really pressing the under there. A lot of it, I think also, like, when Ben Simmons is on the floor, as Ben Dietrich did a whole thread about this on Twitter, when Benson is on the floor and he is not playing with Kyle O'Kin or Mattias Stuybal, like the Sixers' offensive rating is very high.

Like, he runs a good offense. But the real thing is probably A, he should probably not be the point guard, even though he is a generational talent when it comes to passing. And B, it's not like he's surrounded by a lot of shooters. And I was thinking about like the way the Sixers put their team together and the gambit that they're making to be enormous and a defensive juggernaut and clogging the lane and basically being a

yana stopping team, which is essentially what I think that they're built for. But they're going to be regular season games where they just look like shit. And they're still learning how to play with each other and I think a lot of teams are. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that over the course of the pod.

I know you have some deeply held personal beliefs about another team that had a lot of roster turnover. Yeah. So the Mellow Bowl was last night. Yeah. He's back guys. Yeah. It's back in our lives.

Apparently that was like a major thing for people. People were like, let's get, like, I didn't know that, like, we were missing Mello. Well, it's funny because when we do this list now before every season, where it's the X number of things that we think are going to define the season. Oh, yeah. And I put it in front of a couple staff riders. I want to get their opinion on it, wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything, especially some of the more granular stuff, that guys like Charks, for instance, are good at. Yeah. And he sees Mello and he's like, get that out of there.

Really? Like, Mello's not going to be a thing. Yeah. I'm sorry, Charks. Mello is back, and that's what everybody wants to talk about. Unfortunately, my deeply held personal belief is that this is not going to work out. I don't think it was a real encouraging start for Mello. Obviously, his first game back, I don't think he even had a full shoot-around.

It was in New Orleans, wasn't even in Portland, so Damien Lillard did not play, so they started Anthony Simons and this rag-tag kind of crew. Back spasms, yeah. And so it was hardly just like the optimal environment for him to come back. But I thought it was interesting that it happened against the Pelicans, a team that is kind of progressive in the way it wants to play. It's playing, especially now because of injuries, a lot of guys out of position.

Kendrick Williams was Melo's counterpoint at the four position, and the Pelicans want to run, they want to shoot threes, they want to do all this other things. Yeah, they look good with Jackson Hayes on the floor last night. But Mello is now moving to the four, something that we've been waiting from him for so long. He just had to wait for basketball to change. He didn't want to change. He just needed basketball change.

So out of, I don't know if they're going to keep him there long term, but for now he is their starting four. And it's almost like even now he's still two years too late because the guy on the opposite end of the floor is basically like built like a beefy two. Yeah. And so that sort of theme. So now Melo has to play five. Right. I mean, I don't know. He's probably better than Whiteside. Yeah, the guys that they're throwing out there, Scalibusia as well.

And so I think that was the theme throughout the night where it was like, Mello looks a step behind. And I'm not sure how he's ever going to catch up to that. What is strange turn of events? So what this got announced on Friday? Yeah, that sounds right. And he starts on Tuesday in his first game back in about a year. Uh-huh. When he'd only played like a few games for the Rockets, they got rid of him.

And then, and now he's back and he's immediately in the starting lineup, which I think probably speaks as much to how, how, uh, uncertain Portland is about what they've got on their hands. What a weird rag tag group of people, group of guys. And, you know, I wonder whether or not this is just a band-aid. You know, I mean, Neil Olshey has not been like, we fixed it, we got mellow. What a sign? I mean, I think he knows, like, this is a guy who was, like, lingering around the fringes of the league. And we felt like we could take a run at him and whatever.

It's just going to be all positive. It's a non-guaranteed deal. Zach Collins is out. Like, we don't have anybody who can stretch the floor at all or take some of the scoring burden off of Dame and CJ. We just need somebody out there. Yeah, it seems like he's throwing darts, especially as teams wait for December 15th

when a lot of the guys who were signed over the summer are now trade eligible. So there is this weird limbo period where it's just way more complicated in order to make a big trade. Perhaps that is the ultimate destiny for the Blazers. But right now, they just kind of have to make do I'm a little concerned that Carmel Anthony is their approach to that because I just don't know if he helps them specifically where they need help,

which is on the defensive end. I think if they can figure out Damon C.J. and just kind of entrust to carry the offense, they just need to figure out the defense and specifically the front court. But Mello was just, man, I don't know. It was his first game, so I don't want to completely obliterate him. But he was just careless in a lot of different ways. He just looked old, like careless fouls.

he got stripped by Jackson Hayes like early on I'm like oh my God this is what he's going to be up against all the time now and I just don't know if he's suited for an NBA where him at the 5 is not like outrageous as just a thought experiment well you know it's funny when I was watching it

and I know how old Mello is I know how long he's been playing I know that some of his contemporaries even guys who are old and then him are still in the league but you know one of the tropes you hear a lot especially from the pundit class of NBA guys in terms of the guys are on TV is like this well if they were playing in my day, right?

Like back when we had hand checking and Anthony Mason would break your clavicle if you tried to get a layup. Watching Mello last night was a little bit of what it would be like if guys from like the 90s had to play today. You know what I mean? Yeah.

I mean, Mello is at his best when he's just posting up and shooting over guys. If you looked at all of like the highlight reels they were playing on Instagram where he was in these New York runs, a lot of it was just him like rubbing his back into people and then just jolting off of it. them and then shooting over them somehow.

And throwing Julius Randall on the habachi. Right. And so, like, I just don't know how many of those opportunities he's going to get when you have guys like Damon C.J. who are just accomplished offensive players who are going to need the ball. I think Mello has always needed the ball to operate at his best, or at the very least, he thinks he does. And that's why he's had such a difficult time transition now. I mean, we'll see again. Like, I do wonder if he gets more spot-up attempts. If they use him more in the pick and roll, that was one thing I saw specifically where it was like, Oh, Mello used his size, specifically when they put Frank Jackson on him to start the second quarter.

And he was like, he rubbed him and he got to the rim and he looked good that way. Right. But he will need to play like that. And that is a more physical style of basketball, which A, is he suited to that coming off the street. And B, is he suited to that just mentally considering like where he thinks he is as a player. Is there a 2019-20 Dwight-Hawd version of this Mello on the Blazers? Like the, I do exactly what you need me to do for the... the amount of time you need me,

and at least just optically watching the Lakers last night and watching Dwight, I was like, it seems like he is like plotting his teammates, lifting guys up off the ground, not crying when he doesn't get a post-up look. Like everything is deflections, blocks, rebounds, and flushes. Like, you know,

everything Dwight's doing is additive. And he seems like he has, at least the narrative, especially that the Lakers are pushing, because you could see on the Jumbotron they were like advertising for the infectious energy of Dwight Howard like a Spectrum TV Lakers

like mini doc. Is there a version of that for Mello? Is there a version where he's like the wise 14 points in 18 minutes guy? It could be there. I think Dwight it was easier for him to do it from just a gameplay standpoint

because he does things that theoretically just don't involve giving it to him in the post. Dwight is an elite rebounder throughout his entire career and he can still do that. He can still block shots. He's not as good as he used to be, but he could still move a little bit.

And he was humbled to the point where he was willing to do that. Mello, in theory, is at that point in his career. I just don't know specifically what role he would fit in order to alleviate the concerns the Blazers have now. The one role he definitely fits in as a catch-and-shoot three-point shooter.

But is he going to want to do that specifically. I think that's still up in the air. Well, this is the difference between asset accumulation and team building. Dwight is a filling a very, very specific need for the Lakers.

They needed front court depth. They needed somebody who would selflessly play center and not be like, you know, like basically like we have the best big man in the NBA. You just need to make it so that he doesn't have to play down low all the time.

Yeah. And that's what he's doing for Anthony Davis. Dwight can also play five in the second unit with Rondo. And it was kind of interesting watching Lakers stagger their guys last night because it was like LeBron and AD at various points, but they were doing the Lakers thing of like one of LeBron and AD was usually on the floor. Now, I just was like mesmerized by like how seamlessly Dwight seemed to do all the stuff that Davis is like, I can do it, but just don't make me do it every night.

and they are a really intimidating four or five combo in terms of room protection. I don't know what Mello does for the Blazers. It seems like the Blazers, and we can bring Charx in for this, but the Blazers are kind of a minor tragedy and not keeping the continuity that they had. And I don't know that we necessarily understood

the extent to which having a Minu, Harkless, Turner, and the guys who had been on that team for a few years, And getting rid of all of them and replacing them with Anthony Simons and Scal and Hizonia and Mello is a real downgrade. And I understand why they had to do it. But I have a major question about why they had to do it. And we should bring Charkson to talk about this. We're going to get to Jonathan Charkson just a second, but first a quick word from our sponsored The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Fandul Sportsbook. Now available in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Indiana.

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From most improved to most valuable. Yeah, it's happened before. Yonis did it. He's definitely taking the leap. I don't know if he has the narrative push behind his rise here, but I think the fact that the Raptors are coming off that title, he is going to be in the public aisle, and they're going to be there in the late playoffs.

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Refund issued as non-withdrawable site credit and expires 14 days after receipt. Terms apply. Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler or in West Virginia. visit 1-800 gambler.net or in Indiana, call 1-8009 with it. Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Brilliant Earth. Create your own one-of-a-kind engagement ring from a variety of ethically sourced diamonds, gemstones, metal types, and settings with Brilliant Earth. Brilliant Earth has exclusive unique designs you can't find anywhere else brought to life by master jewelers.

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To see terms for this special offer and to shop all Brilliant Earth's selections, go to BrilliantEarth.com slash ringer MBA. That's BrilliantEarth.com slash ringer MBA. All right, Charks is here. Welcome, Jonathan. How are you? How are you guys doing? We're doing good. We were just talking about Carmelo and Anthony.

I think that there is a little bit of like Summer of the Shark with Carmelo. I don't get that reference. Yes, you do. I'm not following either. Summer of the shark was the summer. I'm not being weird. It was the summer before 9-11. and it was like there was nothing happening

so everybody got really interested in these shark attacks and it was like that was like the major story was like the sharks Bobby do you know about this? Absolutely not I was like four in 2000 We were all too young for this Chris

You're showing your age here I remember when shark shows became a thing I didn't know he was called age shamed about this I didn't know what they called it the summer of the sharks The summer before 9-11 is remembered as the summer of the shark

because it's like can you believe that we cared about sharks before that. You know what I mean? And it was like one of those classic Augusts where there was just like the Little League World Series, nothing much happening. And then the shark attacks were happening.

And everybody was like, oh my God, sharks everywhere. This is the summer of the shark. This is what Mello is. There's just like we're having a little bit of a lull. We got it. Luke is good. Understood.

The Lakers are good. We got it. So there's a little bit of a lull. And then Carmelo comes along at the perfect time for everybody to be like, I have a million Carmelo thing piece. So he's like the Meg, the movie? I see what you're trying to do.

I'm going to give it to you. But, Charks, the reason why I want to continue this, at the end of our mellow discussion, Varyer and I were kind of talking about the turnover that happened on the Blazers over the course of this off-season. And a lot of the guys who had been sort of veteran staples around that team like Harkless and Minu and Turner,

regardless of what you think about their contributions to the team, they obviously provided a degree of continuity and now the Blazers, while they still have the same core and the same two stars, have had to remix their depth, basically. And it was really interesting watching them earlier this week.

They lost to the Rockets 132-108. The Rockets just fucking stupendous, which they still make me want to tear my eyeballs out watching them, but they are pretty electric on offense. But they are also surrounding two stars with yes, Capella, but now without Gordon who's hurt,

it's just like a bunch of guys off the scrap heap. And I was curious if you guys could talk to me a little bit about how you're feeling about this idea that, you know, how do you build around stars? And whether or not, you know, like the rockets made a choice to singularly focus on Hardin, bring in Westbrook, but Hardin is obviously the sun that everything revolves around there. Should the Blazers have made a similar decision about Dame or CJ

and gotten a better team around them rather than keeping those two guys and just constantly having every three years to rebuild the team around them? I think the first thing worth mentioning is that Houston's just better at this than Portland. Like, when Darrell Morey's not causing geopolitical disasters,

he's getting the G-League, and he's finding guys like Daniel House. Daniel House would be perfect in Portland. He's a legitimate 3-Indee player they'd never had. And that was a guy that the Blazers could have signed that anybody could have signed. And, like, if you're going to build around two guards, you've got to be able to fill in the pieces.

And, I mean, I think that's a start of it. Is that more are you just a better GM than Olshe? I think the Rockets last year are a particularly good comp for the Blazers this year. Oh, okay. Where over the summer, the Rockets let Trevor Areza walk. They let Luke Rashar and Bahamute walk. And they tried to make do with guys who just, like, were retreads.

They made do with Mello, specifically, Michael Carter Williams, some other guys. And they were just relying. on the fact that they had enough, they would figure it out eventually, that they had the guts of a team that pushed the Warriors, and eventually they would be able to figure it out. Unfortunately, they ran to a situation where they needed to just get by. And it feels like the Blazers are in that situation now where they let Farooke go, they let Harkless go, and they were more focused on raising their ceiling when the floor has just bottomed out

because they were just pereously thin at certain positions of need. Yeah. And so it really comes down to when do you make the push, I think. And like the Blazers, similar situation, they made the Western Conference Finals. Maybe they're feeling good about themselves. But I just don't know if a Rodney Hood was the right approach when it still seemed like last regular season, around this time last year, we weren't really sure what they were. Yeah, I mean, the Blazers tend to be streaky. I think, like, you know, they've had like really good second halves of the season. So I'm not writing them off right now. But the group that they had last year, That was the third year of improvement from that team.

I think they were like, I think they went like 41, then they won 44, then they won 53 and got to the conference finals. That's the team that you, it feels like you want to try. If you're going to get rid of some of the core vets that are around that team, you probably want to bring in a star to replace them. And it just feels like this team, Hizonia, Scow, Tolover, the weird white side trade. it feels like a team that was like coping with the chaos of the offseason and making deals just to make them.

Well, it's funny Justin mentions Carmelo because there's the difference right there. The Rockets had Carmelo decided this is a terrible idea and went and got good players. Whereas the Blazers needed good players and signed Carmelo. Yeah, I think another big distinction between the two teams because I think it's really interesting to juxtapose them. The Blazers have also made a conscious effort

to invest in youth. The past couple drafts, they've really tried to focus in on guys who would ultimately be able to grow with Damon C.J. Zach Collins is the shining example of that, a guy that everyone is high on, especially on this podcast.

Zer Little is a guy they drafted. Anthony Simons, another guy who is playing significant minutes for them. And so that's the difference between them and the Rockets, because the Rockets just kind of really wanted to maximize the window, whereas the Blazers, I think,

because of their market and maybe because of just like, I don't know, situational things, they focused on the long term. It seems like they're much more worried about the, like, the long road ahead. Right. They want long term sustainability rather than burning out to fade away, you know, right? Charks, do you think that Damon C.J is the, is, do you think that they should keep

Damon C.J. together? Or do you think that that's just, this is what they are and that we shouldn't even be having this conversation? I mean, I did a thing last year where I said they should trade C.J. for Aaron Gordon. And I still believe that. Yeah. I do think that your two point guard teams, there's just a ceiling because two point guards, it's hard to like them both to be good at the same time.

They're a little redundant, right? Because Dame and Tij aren't guarding anybody. They're not making each other better really. They're playing my turn, your turn. And you saw it in Houston too, like Houston Brington star point guards. And those guys become less aversion of themselves. But they've got James Hardin instead of Dame. So to me, yeah, I feel like any team who's best two players are point guards is going to

be having uphill battle against your L.A., your Lakers, your clippers, who've got, you know, 6-7, 6-8 monsters. You guys want to talk about the Rockets for a second? Sure. Because I'm so rude about them, so I feel like we might as well acknowledge what a heater they've been on. What are you seeing, and we could vary if you want to jump in here. What's your grade on the Westbrook Hardin Partnership and why is this working to the tune

of, I think, eight in a row now, including a couple where they just absolutely. absolutely teed off on people and just won by 23, 20, 24. I mean, at this point, it's kind of an incomplete. Or at the very least, the grading rubric feels like it's just like an exact because what I think is happening is Westbrook is kind of deferring to the Hardin show. Right. It just feels like Westbrook is adapting, finally, to what is going on in Houston, which has always been built to maximize Hardin's scoring potential. It just seems like Hardin, even though he's less efficient than last year, is just like, scoring at rates that we've never seen before since

Wilts Chamberlain. And so I guess... Westbrook said, don't normalize his greatness. Right. So I guess in that regard, it's going well. I still have the same, like, reservations about the fit. And if anything, I think perhaps they're even more, like, I'm more worried because, like, if Westbrook isn't going to be involved as more,

then he has to be more of, like, a spot-up shooter, play off of Hardin. But it's working for now, and it's working because Hardin has just been absolutely brilliant. Trucks, one thing I noticed, and it kind of goes back to the rockets are just better at this than the Blazers, I think they're better than the Thunder, too. Because when you watch Westbrook out there without Hardin, they're spreading the floor. There's wide open driving lanes. And even though Westbrook is shooting pretty garbage numbers, it doesn't seem to matter. And he's getting to the rim with ease that I don't think he has in several years.

for sure. I think I haven't seen the numbers, but I know he's shooting a much higher percentage at the rim than he has in a long time. And yeah, just to go back what Justin was saying, it's a lot like with Chris Paul. Like remember when they got Chris Paul and everyone's like, okay, how are Hardin and Paul going to fit together? And it was like, they aren't. Harding to whatever he wants and Paul's figuring it out. Same thing with Westbrook. Like Hardens the man, bro, get your shots from you can. Otherwise, I'm doing my thing. Deal with it. Yeah, I think it's also helped that a guy like Capella, who we talked about pretty recently as, like,

the third guy who needs to be engaged on that team, he's also playing well. And I even had the snide remark of, like, playing with Russell Westbrook is actually going to help Capella because he has so many more available rebounds. The Russi assist. Yeah. Exactly.

But he seems more engaged, and that's made a significant impact, I think. Yeah, I mean, they're playing through this without Gordon. And it's really hard to imagine this team being a good playoff team for some reason. The defense has, it hasn't really mattered that much, I guess,

if you're putting up, you know, they're guarding, though. They've been guarding the last few weeks since they started off since that Miami game,

basically. I started playing games after that. John, do you have any, are you out of words to describe what Hardin's doing? I mean,

give the man as props, right? He's breaking the game. He's scoring it well. He's like a 6-5 Will Chamberlain. I mean, what are you going to do?

It's incredible. So does He Udell move? into this LeBron category where now we expect this level of greatness and our eyes wander. Because this is leading into, I think, our MVP debate, which after 15 games, I bet, is obviously premature. But because this season, I think, has been defined by some of the new faces that we have in the league, like Luca. Like, Janus is not new, but I think Janus is fully established himself as one of the two or three best players in the league, if not the best. You got guys like Trey, you know, all these younger kids coming up.

towns is having a breakout year. But, you know, does that mean guys like LeBron and Hardin just sort of like we just accept their eye-watering greatness and then put them to the side because they're not the shiny unit thing anymore? Yeah, I think the MVP discussion is shaping up to be particularly interesting. And it's interesting because it's so similar to last year. If Hardin, if we're just assuming that Hardin and Janus are going to be one, two, or at the very least going to be in that mix, yet again, I think we're kind of heading toward this moment

where it's really going to force us to, A, have the same arguments about what value is and, like, what do we want from our MVP? And also, to interrogate, like, how much the narrative actually matters because Janus was on the rise last year, Hardin had just come off the MVP year, and now it's switched. And all of a sudden, Hardin, being better than last year, seems like the more sexy narrative, even though Janus, quietly, has been better himself. Yeah. Well, we were, I mean, why don't we do the MVP conversation now? I mean, I want to talk about Luca, but let me ask this for starters. I think there's a lot of mini debates within the MVP debate itself. So let's go through a couple of them, just off the top of my head.

Who's the MVP that's on the Lakers? I would have said Anthony Davis, and I think I might have as recently as last week, it seems like it's flipping a little bit. It seems like Davis has been dominant on the defensive end, but LeBron has taken more control over the offense. I think the interesting kind of thing it sets up is it's almost like a little mini Derek Rose debate where the Lakers are winning on defense.

And Davis is the focal point there. I think he's leaving the league in blocks. He's just completely warped the court that way and they've been dominant as a result. But LeBron is very much taking the reins a little bit more and you're seeing it these days where he's just putting up like 30 point triple doubles. And so it almost is like what do you value more?

LeBron is the emotional leader and the offensive focal point, or not focal point, but the guy who's, like, really doing a lot of the work, the guy who's initiating a lot of what's happening out there versus Davis,

who's really the source of why they're winning? No, Sharks, I'll tell you this. Like, last night when I went and watched the game, Davis had a quiet, like, 34 or whatever it was, and he didn't even go to the line that much. It was, like, just pure, like, offensive wizardry. But I didn't really notice it. I noticed LeBron.

I mean, I noticed, like, I noticed LeBron because LeBron, because LeBron has that, like, gravitational pull that, like, it happens on both ends of the court. Even if he's just hiding out on Darius Basley, like, he's just roaming around out there on defense. And as soon as there's a turnover, your eyes just immediately go to him. But on offense, he is orchestrating everything. And the Lakers seem to have found a real chemistry among this group of players. If you had to pick an MVP out of just the Lakers, who would you pick, John?

I mean, to me, it's LeBron, because it's still his... team. He hasn't given Davis the keys to the offense. And to me, that's a bad thing. If I'm the Lakers, I don't want LeBron to my MVP. I want my 26-year-old franchise big man to my MVP. I want to have the ball in his hands. I want him creating for others. Because that's what's going to matter in the playoffs. But to me, until LeBron, because LeBron talked a big game of the off season, oh, it's going to be Davis's team. But I don't think he really bought into it. I think it's still LeBron's team. We're still living in the LeBron show. And he wants to be the man. And until they to step back, I think the Lakers aren't

as good as they could be, honestly. Yeah, I think it's interesting, especially to look at what Charks wrote about Anthony Davis going into the season. This idea that perhaps his fate lies as one of these bigger wings who seems to be dominating the league and Davis would need to be

the next, like, Kauai, right? You would just have to be a giant version of him and really kind of dominate the ball in that regard. It hasn't happened. And like, I think just from an aesthetics and, like, entertainment value, you gravitate toward the guy who is initiating things and really just attacking things. And Davis seems to be the end point still. And it's working. They're winning.

It's just, I don't know if he'll ever get the credit in the MVP discussion that perhaps maybe he deserves. Okay. So it seems like we've all kind of like landed on James as like at least the front runner and the latecomer to the MVP race in the Lakers. Who is the MVP in Los Angeles? I would still say LeBron. I mean, Kauai's just not playing as often. I'm going to say it's Paul George's shoulder surgeon. Because, nice job, bro. You did it.

Seriously. First of all, Paul George walking around being like, I have two new shoulders. That's a strange way of putting it. It's like, where'd you get them? Did they come from Robocop? Because you look pretty good. He's been pretty fantastic over the few nights he's played, and he still hasn't played a game with Kauai Leonard.

as Paul George has kind of returned and as drawn all this attention, I think it's kind of like taken away from the Kauai Leonard thing went from a pure rest thing to now like we're speculating on the jump as to whether or not he looks unsteady on his knee. Well, he's been hurt, right? I don't know.

I mean, I've last three games with a knee injury. No, I know. I'm not like skeptical about that. I just think that like with Kauai comes mystery. You know, with Kauai becomes the undone. known of like, what are we doing here? Is this like, is just just managing something that's, that's chronic and that you're

going to have all the time and you're going to play 60 games a year and then you're going to, you know, dominate the playoffs. In which case, that actually is going to question like the paradigm we have about what an MVP is and who the best player in the league is. If Kauai Leonard wins the title with the clippers and it becomes the, I think would be the first guy to win the title with three teams, I think that's right. To say nothing is the best player, probably. Yeah.

Yeah. I think you get into. real questions about like what do we what do we kind of like how do we evaluate the quote unquote best player in the league or the most valuable player in the league is the most valuable yeah chris um play seven no go ahead i was saying speaking on that like i was looking at the last 20 years the MVP has only won the title five times out of those 20 years and i think it goes back to these conversations because it always comes back to oh who has the most help well if i have less help i'm the MVP well congratulations if you have less help you're not getting a championship yeah

And then Kauai's smart. He sees the big picture. Yeah. I mean, I do think, though, that it swings, like, right? Like, sometimes there are narrative years like Westbrook and in Oklahoma City. And sometimes there are years where it's just like best player, best team. Whoever's the best player on the best team gets it, the best regular season team, right? And Janus completely made sense last year, 60 win team or whatever they were.

Best player on that team, making the leap. It didn't seem to be much of a debate, even though Hardin made a real push for it. So, okay, you guys aren't seeing either of the Clippers guys rising out and challenging James in this debate here. I mean, if it's a regular season award, it's tough because, I mean, the Clippers really messaged from the jump, like, where they were going to be, what was their priority by just, like, not even playing Paul George until recently. Yeah. Like, they're sitting Kauai for three games. And even when they're on national TV, they don't even bother to, like, feed into that. Is he playing today against the Celtics?

I haven't heard. questionable, I think. Questionable. So who is the MVP coming out of the Western Conference then? Is it LeBron? Is it Harden? If we're saying specifically the Western Conference, I think it's still hardened.

The efficiency is down, but he's been better than last year. I mean, he's pushing 40 points per game. He's at 39.2 right now. Like we were saying, these are just numbers that just don't often get pushed, and all of a sudden, we're just talking about him in comparison to Walt Chamberlain.

Like, that's significant. never do that. Charx? Yeah, to me, if it's not hard and you're just hating at this point. Like, I think, I mean, it's legitimately just hating. Like, the man's getting his numbers. I, yeah, I, uh, it's not like he's doing something, I guess he is doing something this year that he wasn't because the numbers are even better.

I think that, uh, I've just like eventually, I've just like kind of given up. I've given up being sort of like, uh, like critiquing it. And, and I just acknowledge that I don't, I think you could start. around him with literally like a YMCA team and he would get 45 in an NBA game. It just seems, it seems like he's literally unstoppable and is the perfect player for the specific rule set that we have right now in the NBA and the specific style of play that we have right now in the NBA. Is he the MVP out of Texas?

For sure. Luke is doing the same thing as hard and but less effective, in my opinion. What I think I hear you saying is that triple doubles are more important than just points. I'm just asking the question. I'm just a lowly. post. You guys are the talking heads. Do you want us to clear out? Do you want your hardened moment in order to talk about Luca

Donchich? I just think it's funny. I went on desktop and I did spice on this and it was not spice. It was honestly, it was mayonnaise. It was just like it was actually what I think. It was, I just think that like we've

apparently just forgot the two years that NBA Twitter spent shitting on Westbrook for going for triple doubles. Uh-huh. And now, somehow, it's like, we've just discovered basketball reference. We've just discovered all these, like, how do you, like, judge these historical numbers?

And people are freaking out about Donchitz running these triple double numbers up because of these age. Oh, nobody this young has ever done this except for Oscar Robertson. We did the same fucking tweets two years ago. And it's just like, why, like, why was that somehow, like, borderline illegal. And now this Donchich thing is like, no one's ever seen this before. This is just, this is like the miracle of flight. The Wright brothers have just shown up.

This is like acting like the planes don't fly while standing in LAX. So what do you, am I wrong? No. Although I think the major caveat that perhaps we should consider is that we're not putting Luca at the forefront of this MVP discussion. Right now, we're saying Hardin, Janus, maybe even LeBron. and then Luca, because those teams... We are, I think a lot of people aren't.

I think a lot of people are like, Luca's the MVP. Charks, are they saying that in Dallas? I mean, they're chaining at the games. I don't know that everyone expects MVP's this year. I don't know. Maybe people are, I don't know. The MVP chant at the free throw line

needs to stop because we're at the point where like Devin Booker probably gets MVP chance. I mean, you got the dumbest shit. Whatever. Chris has just created this environment I just want to attack things. Well, no, I think that the problem with it is, and this goes back to what we were saying in the beginning of the podcast about the environment in NBA games, is that the NBA needs more nuanced chanting. Is that what they need?

No, because in soccer, in European football matches, all these players have different songs. Like, you sing, like, there's, like, songs for, like, the midfielder who just, like, kind of does the dirty work. Like, everybody has, like, these unique songs. They, like, remix Joy Division songs and sing about guys. And in the NBA, it's just like, MVP, MVP. They sing it for Montrez-Harold. They sing it for, it doesn't matter. Right.

So we got to come up with more nuanced chance for different players. Maybe give some people in the stands like a sitar, like really experiment. Yeah, man. Solo George Harrison. Yeah, I remember watching the Maradonna doc. And like, even though this was probably the 30th thing that was interesting about the dog, I was like, oh, they had a Maradana, like, song that they used to sing at the... Devin Booker needs a song.

Okay. Yeah. Maybe we should do that. I think that that's true, though. I think that we are like, I think that because MVP is like, nobody's chance back-to-back most improved at Pascal Seahakum, they're going to chant MVP. Bust some L-AFC fans in there. They got it down.

That's true. The Clippers need to get some kind of like unified fan behavior going on because it's just, it's still not there, guys. they need to get some fans besides Isaac Lee I will say the one game I have been to it did seem a little bit different it was against Utah

on a Sunday so maybe people were just more available I don't know but like that Clippers fans work nights is that what you're saying I mean it's not necessarily a football town so I wonder if like people are more likely to go on a Sunday

but apparently it wasn't there for the thunder I had a friend even who was like yeah I went for $9 there was a guy sitting baseline at the Thunder game wearing a full Chris Paul Thunder uniform. Uniform. And it wasn't Chris Paul. And I'm not saying that that guy couldn't have done that with the Lakers game, but he couldn't have done that with the Lakers game.

Maybe they came together. Maybe it was like a package deal. Oh, okay. So it's like if you go to NBA.com and you buy the whole uniform, you get baseline seats. At the Clippers game, yeah. Sharks. Okay, so it's either Hardin or James in the Western Conference. right? Is there anyone in the Eastern Conference that you see rivaling those guys? I mean, to me, I feel like it's going to be hard and versus Janus again.

It feels like those two guys, you look at the top teams, everybody else has that second co-star, basically, whereas it's just hardening Janus are just carrying two teams at top of the league. And it feels like it's going to be the same thing all over again. Yeah, Janus's performance since Middleton went down is like, okay, he's running. He's shooting threes now. Yeah. He's shooting threes. He's just marginally better. And it's hard. Let's say this just continues where Hardin is a little bit better and Janus is a little bit better. Like, how do we just give Harden the MVP in this situation when we had this debate last year and we settled on Janus?

I think it's close enough that you just give them both an MVP, right? That's fair. Well, I mean, we've talked about this whether or not there should be like kind of like a player of the year and an MVP. And I guess there is like there's like the Basketball Writers Association gives like a player, right? Isn't there like little awards? I don't think so. I think they give like the one who was most

cooperative with like midi-screens. They should just come up with like a Heisman for NBA where it's like we don't know what this means but it's prestigious. Right, I guess it would be like MVP and then offensive and defensive player. It would be three awards. Hardin would always win offensive MVP.

But when you factor in the defense, that's when Yannis really kind of takes over. Yeah, Janus would be the MVP if that was the case. I wonder whether or not also like the fact that we're even talking about MVP 15 games in means that like our brands are broken and we don't really understand how to watch an NBA season. I mean, we're definitely rushing to judgment. Do you know what I mean?

Our brains are definitely broken. I think that's fair to say. I'm always like, is this like the NFLification of this league where we're trying to make it into these like massive narratives when in fact NBA is more of like a baseball style like long marathon of a season? Sure. And so it's like we're just like cut and bait on the blazers immediately. It's like the blazers year after year have proven to us.

that they usually have like runs at some point in their season, but we're burying them. Yeah, I mean, this is what you get with an 82 game season. If you gave me 60 games, maybe I wouldn't be talking about the MVP in like November 20th. Right, but like because we want to have something definitive to say and we're not just like we don't want to spend every week being like, Monty Graham, nice little, nice little game.

I guess we could be talking about the Celtics, but like we wants to do that, right? Charks does. Charks, do you want to talk about the Celtics? Hey, I got a big article today about them. I know, me and Bill out here watching the Celtics. You and Bill, that's it. I got to say, I found your article very convincing. They're legit, man.

And the Tatum and Brown thing, you wrote really well about their ascendance being kind of chopped up a little bit. They hit a speed bump with the arrival of Kyrie and the Hayward stuff last year of trying to integrate Hayward back in the team. And now you wrote about them. And you know, you had a chart there where it's like Hayward and Brown have like an offensive rating that is what better than some of the best in the league, right? Yeah, basically when Taylor and Breyer in the game, like, tell us just kill teams because they have these two six-eight-do-everything wings.

And it's funny, I was looking at the numbers, it wasn't even just Kyrie and Hayward. Terry Rozier had more touches than those guys last season. The whole thing was a complete mess. Like, that team was a disaster. And this team almost by subtraction seems to make complete sense now. They brought in guys like, they have like Brad Wanamaker. They have Grant Williams.

Like, this team just makes more sense because all their role players accept their roles. And they say, okay, these two or three guys are the guys, everybody else is going to kind of play with it themselves. Whereas last year you had Marcus Morris jacking shots, Terry Rozier jacking shots. It was all out of whack. Yeah, I am curious, I guess the one like little shred of doubt I have there

is since Hayward has been down, the schedule has been a little soft. Like they get wins against the Suns, a team that's on the rise, but I'm not like fully into the idea that they are like a playoff team. They're probably like 500 or just believe 500 team. Yeah. Like they're way better than that. I think we thought they'd be.

Right. They beat the Mavericks. I think the team is ultimately better with Hayward. And then the question is always like in the front court. Like are they going to have enough against like a Bucks or a Sixers. Those are still the two teams that I think they're going to have to go through. Or like even the Raptors. Like the Raptors are huge up front if they're going to keep Kassal and Siakum is their front line.

See, what's your level of belief in Time Lord then? Let's talk Time Lord. Okay. Charks. I'm being completely serious. How many centers are better than Time Lord right now? I have to go to a list, but I'll tell you this, not many centers have his tools.

He's a crazy athlete. And think about Time Lord, he's a really good pastor, which you would never expect. He's actually a really skilled, fairly smart basketball player. I think his ceiling is a lot higher. People forget he fell because of all his dumb stuff.

But in terms of talent, I had him right there with like Bomba and Wendez. and all those guys last year. He was the lottery talent that went 27 because of off-the-court things. And would you take him, if I offered you Wendell or Bamba or Time Lord now, who would you take?

I think I would take Time Lord, honestly. Oh, wow. What would you take? Sharks. Varyer, who would you take? So it's Bomba, Carter, or Time Lord? This is the exact opposite of having the MVP race conversation. It's having a conversation about whether you want Wendell,

Carter, Jr., Mo Bamba, or Robert Williams. I mean, I'm out on Bamba, I think, for a little while until he shows he's better than Ken Birch. Probably Carter. The thing with Time Lord is like, he's only playing still like 10 minutes a night. Carter is the guy who I think Carter is like a, the fact that Carter's not better or that, I don't know, it just feels like that's a pretty big indictment of what the polls are doing, is that like you've got a guy who does everything, who wants to do everything right on a modern

NBA team. And it's like, just make me Al Horford, like, please. And somehow they're not, they're just. not, they're not doing that. The Bulls have found a way to like diminish all of their more recent draft picks that they've actually, I think they've hit on a few like Lori Marketing and Carter has potential, but like even Markanin is just down, his scoring is down and just like, I don't know how he fits into a Zach Levine system.

I think of Lori Markinen, I think Lori Markinen literally gets his name said because his name is cool. Like if his name is Lawrence Martin, I just think people are like, he's all right. I mean, he was pretty good his first two years until he got injured and then they started prioritizing the other guys. I guess you're right. Like, who are they prioritizing now? Levine.

Levine. It's the Levine show. Let's get back to the Celtics for a second. I liked what you were saying. It seems like the Celtics almost kind of correspond to the Rockets a little bit here. And what we're saying about they're playing so beautifully together right now, but you do wonder tactically whether or not they're built for the playoffs. Charks, did you give that much thought when you were writing about the rise of Brown and Tatum this year?

Yeah, I mean, I kind of mentioned the end of the piece what Justin said, right? There's these two seven-foot, you know, the Leviathans in the East, you know, Embed and Yanis. I think if you're Boston, you might be waiting those guys out, right? If your best two players are 21 and 23, you've got a long runway ahead of you. Whereas who knows how long those guys will be around in the East. Yeah, that's a great point. I do wonder, like, long-term, like, which team is best situated? I also wonder, let's throw the Raptors into that discussion.

I think you should. I think if we're looking at those four teams is perhaps the biggest threats in the East, which one is built moving forward because the Sixers, as we mentioned, up top. Do you think that there's only four? I think that the East is like flat out of five-team race right now. It's hard to be like my-heaping for good. Yeah, it's hard to be like Miami's just early like heat. Well, if we're talking about Windows, Butler is 30.

And so I do wonder like how much, like how much longer he could be the focal point on offense. They do have some contracts coming up and maybe they can just get things in there to augment him. And they have been good at unearthing these guys like a Kendrick non-lawful. like a Justice Winslow and really making the best out of them. But it just seems like if we're going by just blue chippers and young guys, like the Celtics just have just this wealth of them.

And they still have perhaps one of the best assets in the league in this Memphis Grizzly's first round pick. Oh, yeah, that's true. I mean, the Sixers, we talked about it up top, like the Ben Simmons Embed thing. I'll buy anybody's Sixers stock. I'm not worried. Okay. Wait, are you sure? Are you selling stock?

I think that they will be better than they have been recently. I have too much confidence in the defense when all of them are there and everything is clicking and they have time to really figure that out. I just still think there's going to be the same issues in the playoffs where it's just the Ben and Joel thing

budding heads. And that too, like with the Philly, who thought I was a good idea to bring in a bunch of guys who can't shoot around Ben Simmons? Like who's running that team right now? I worry about that long term. I worry about that long term too.

I guess Janus, if he stays with the bucks, that is just... Are you talking like down the wrong? road now? I'm saying like two, three years. Let's say three years from now who's the most dominant team in the east. I would guess the Celtics just because of how many young guys they have. Oh, the long-term future of these teams? Yeah. I'm not,

the Celtics are annoyingly, you know, they have like a two-year plan and a five-year plan. I mean, like that's always been the kind of the most frustrating part with the Celtics is they just won't die since this, since they've accumulated all these guys. And even when they make a run like they did with the Kyrie thing, they somehow get out from under that unscate. Right. You know, and they get Kimball Walker, and they seem to have not lost a step.

In fact, they've gotten quicker. Right. And it also kind of turned on them last year where they probably thought too long term, and they invested too much in Kyrie in this meticulous building plan, and then all of a sudden the one piece they needed to work didn't work. And we were just like, is this a Ponzi scheme? Because they keep kicking down the road when they're going to go all the way in. Charks, do you think that in the Eastern Conference,

given the fact that it feels very wide open, but also that this is the year off people have from the Nets because next season the Nets will presumably have Irving and Durant and would have to be considered among the favorites, I think, for the title if Durant is even, like everybody says, even if you get 80% of Durant or 85% of Durant, like that Durant and Irving and that team has to be considered a favorite. So is this the year to go for it?

If you're Miami, even if you're, even if you're the Sixers or the Celtics, or even the Heat, or even the Raptors who are still coming off of a title, do you think about adding to your team to make a run this year? That's a good point. I think if I was Miami, I would for sure go for it. Because I think Milwaukee and Philly have holes. I don't think they're unbeatable at all. And if I'm Miami Butler's best he's ever going to be right now. So yeah, I'd probably go for if I were them.

I have a guy, too, I think that should trade for if I was Miami. Okay, who is it? Drew Holiday. I think he'd feel like Jimmy Butler. I think they have the young piece to make a move. New Orleans hasn't been good this year. Maybe I think long term around Zion. Maybe Drew is available.

I think Drew and Jimmy could really lock up the perimeter against both Milwaukee and Philly. What does Miami have to trade for holiday? Tyler Hero. Oh, wow. I love that. When he fit well with the guys in New Orleans with like Zion and Ingram, Tyler Hero? That'd be a good, a good mix, I think. Young JJ Reddy.

I'm saying with Zion that's what you need. Charks, do you think the pacer's need to go all in now that they have Brogden to build around? Well, they're already all in when you have Malcolm Brogden

you don't need any other pieces. This is when this podcast is just like This is getting off the rails now. This is what happens when I'm not here as you guys are talking about Prognon, right? Yeah, it's just the full 50 minutes

on Brogden, yeah. Are there any other Easter conference teams that you think should be really aggressive this season that I'm not thinking of? I mean, we've covered like seven. Yeah.

I guess that's it. I mean the magic, just because they are kind of all in on this little mini window they've established here, but I don't know. They're kind of hoping that their glut of bigs turns into some sort of lead guard. Because Fultz has been better, but clearly they need something to organize what they have. Right. I mean, KOC mentioned in his spurs piece last week that there had been rumors about them looking at DeRosen. And that would be an interesting addition, I guess,

although it would certainly make them, like, it would pretty much petrify them as like this kind of like big man dinosaur team, right? Even though they had a bunch of kids. Right, yeah. It's the spiting your nose to spite your face. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Fuck, I thought I got right this time.

Summer of the shark barrier, come on. I think we can wrap it up there. Do you guys have anything else you wanted to hit this week? No, I don't have any more idioms I want to throw out there. Sharks? I mean, I guess we'll table your Luca takes for later, I suppose. No, I mean, I did my Luca. I mean, I did my, my Luca take is that is more about, like, the perception of Luca.

It's not about what Luke is doing. Luca's, like, fucking must-cTV. Like, I'm not, I'm not an enemy, you know? I come in peace, but I come in fairness, and I just want us to be honest with ourselves. Right. Do you want to just, do you want to give me, like, the one-minute Luca, uh, him? Actually, I think I'm kind of on board what you're saying. Yeah.

Even though I'm a Dallas guy. And if I convince Sharks, who can't I convince? I should run for public office. Yeah, let's wrap here. The Democratic candidacy, it's wide open. Maybe I should jump in. Would you vote for me? No, I wouldn't.

Really? No, yeah, I don't respect your platform. Wags, would you vote for me? So much Rogan NJ in this room right now. Yeah, I know. It's really, we're getting a little roguing. Of course I would vote for you. Thanks, Bobby.

Sharks, thanks for joining us for Varyer. I'm Chris Ryan. We'll be back next week, I would imagine, mismatch. Tuesdays and Thursdays, he checked Monday, group chat on Wednesdays. Bill, three times a week. He has Stani Mo on this week to talk about Luca, so definitely listen to that. All bullshit aside about Luca. Tons of stuff to read.

Shout out and Brock Mahoney. You joined the Ringer this week. Had a piece about Luca earlier in the week. A lot of great stuff on the site right now. So just check that out. And we will join you next week. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.