The Ringer NBA Show - Carmelo's New Home in Oklahoma City (Ep. 139)

Episode Date: September 26, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss Carmelo Anthony's trade to the Thunder (2:30), the history behind superteam success (10:00), the new-look Cavs (19:00), Chicago's complete overhaul (28:00), LeBron vs. Western Conference contenders (34:00), and potential changes to the current playoff format (44:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.k.a. Kevin O'Connor, A.K.K.A. Kevin O'Connor. What up? Kevin. Chris, what's going on? I don't have any nicknames for you today.

What's going on, man? For all of our listeners out there, there was after our last episode, last Tuesday, I was inundated with the photos of Dragon Ball Z and your reference from Dragon Ball Z. And in addition to that, I will say that I think the flattery continued with people that were hitting us up that had listened to the podcast worldwide. Once we shouted out, it all started with, I believe it was Galway, Ireland. And then we just mentioned that in passing. And then now everybody that's hitting us up from all over the world in this last week, we have. I've gotten Sydney, Australia, we've gotten Luxembourg, we've gotten Switzerland, we've gotten Chile, we've gotten Thailand, we've gotten Israel, we've gotten, let's see, where else we got?

Glasgow, Scotland, Poland, all over. I mean, tons of them. And I'm going to leave something out. New Zealand, I know, hit us up. But there's a bunch. So, very appreciative for those of you that are not United States in the United States property. that are listening to us wherever you may be listening. We just said that in passing because we thought it was cool. There were some guys were listening in Ireland. And then it's like every week it's getting now it's getting ridiculous. I really cannot believe it. It's crazy, man. Basketball's worldwide.

Certainly cool. Love it. Okay, so let's start with the big news, which is hoodie mellow, Carmelo, Anthony, was at Media Day yesterday. And he was at the Oklahoma City Media Day because he is now a member of the Thunder. On Saturday, I was at a college football party where they had games on like a cookout of sorts. And there was all kinds of games going on whatever. And so I was just, I was kind of focused on the football games, whatever.

My phone starts going off. My friends are all texting me. And then I see and then I'm at the party and immediately somebody says, Did you just see Carmelo's on the Thunder? And my immediate reaction was for who? And of course I was disappointed when I heard about the return. Because the first thing that ran through my mind is like, who, how did they get Carmelo Anthony and what did they give up? This is clearly an amazing moment for Sam Presti.

Take me through where you were on Saturday and the level of surprise you had when you realized Carmelo Anthony is going to be playing for the Thunder. this year. So, like, I think personally, Chris, the trade return is probably better than what the Pacers got for Paul George. It's still not a great return, but it's probably better than that, which is kind of saying a lot. I think that Bulls pick, the second round 2018 pick they're getting from the Bulls, I think that could be a good pick.

That could be number 31. That can get you a really good player. So that's a solid return from them. Doug McDermott, obviously, like, he is just really, really. really, really bad on defense. But he's still only 25, 26 years old. He can stroke threes. Let's give him the rest of his rookie contract to see how he does.

I'm less optimistic about him than I was at the draft, but I still like to give him more time in Canter. I mean, everybody knows Ennis Cantor in his game. Really, it's, he would be probably a good offensive player if he could shoot three, but he can't. So he hurts your spacing. And I don't really love the dynamic with him next to Chris aps, poor Zengis. But look, like, the main thing here is that for the Knicks, they wash their

hands of Mello, and they can now focus on player development. And for the Oklahoma City Thunder, it's a no-risk acquisition, just like the Paul George trade. They got two superstar scorers who, really, they didn't give up a whole lot. And now they have an opportunity to maybe go toe-to-to-to-to with the Warriors. I don't think that they're on that level, but at least they have more of a shot now than they did before these deals. I think we part ways on the whole what they got in return. I would much rather have, and I know the contract's not good, but as a player, there is a big gap between Ola Depot and the others, for me.

I would rather have, I would much rather. You're right. You get a factor in the contract, though. Four years, $84 million. Like, the money can't be overlooked. And that's, that's, like, what really hurts his value for me. Like, that's what makes him a negative is that contract. Like, that's a joke.

that they even got that money. But at least he's up. But at least, all right, let me defend a little bit. A, I think Oladipo can be better than what we have seen thus far. And number two, he is a starter who can play big minutes. And if I do happen to, and I know the Pacers are not going to be some kind of playoff contender. That being said, if I do get into the playoffs, there's no scenario in which I can't have Oladipo on the court. Whereas Canter's contract sucks too.

and he has rendered totally useless at the highest levels. So to me, Ola Depot has like, he still has value. Like every contract is immovable. We live in a world where we once saw Joe Johnson get traded and everybody thought you'd never be able to trade that. And we've seen all manner of contracts getting traded in the past.

To me, at least Ola Depot is a guy that could log big, big minutes and is useful, no matter the scenario. So he could, you know, I would think there's still going to be teams that would want that or need that. Whereas to me, Canter, it's like, you know, I mean, I just can't get out of my mind, Billy Donovan, when they zoomed in and during the playoffs, and he turns to the guy and he says, can't play him. We cannot play him. You know, because isn't like, isn't that like almost just like who, in some ways if you're the Knicks, Like, who cares about Cantor?

He's just got two years left. The real interesting part here is, like, Carmelo is going to go from the number one guy to the number three guy, probably. Is he? Like, over the course of the full season. Yeah, maybe. I mean, if he's not going to be number three, he's going to be number two. So, I mean, that's the big fascinating change that's going to happen here.

Is Carmelo, in my opinion, there's risk in that maybe he won't be able to adjust to that role. He's had, like, a usage rate of over 28, I think, I believe every year of his career, which is a remarkable feat for him. So he's going to have to adjust in kind of not necessarily getting all the shots. That's still going to be Russell Westbrook, I think. So Carmelo is going to have to make a big adjustment. And that could really help him because he's an excellent spot-op shooter. I think you could see him maybe put a little bit more effort into other areas of his game

instead of isolation scoring. But at the same time, there's no guarantees that that adjustment comes seamlessly for him because it's such a big move. But we've seen the signs of it before when he's played with other great players. when he's played with Chaunty Billups, when he's played with great point guards, he's been better in those seasons. But at the same time, there's still an element of risk where this could not work at all. This could be disastrous.

But I'm excited for it, Chris. I don't know how you're feeling about that, that I'm big three. Oh, I'm really excited to see how it plays out. You know, somebody has to sacrifice big time. Clearly, when we saw this in Miami, Um, Bosch is the one. Bosch is the one that sacrificed, I think the most. I think that's fair to say, wouldn't you agree?

Bosch is the one that sacrificed the most. So, okay, so. Yeah, but he can contribute in other areas, though. Okay, but I'm saying. Whereas Carmelo really can't. Who's the Bosch in this scenario? That's what I'm saying. And then I think it's fair to say long ago, uh, Ray Allen, I think was probably the guy.

You know, his, his numbers could have been higher if he, if he were playing elsewhere. But he went and joined on with Pierce and gone. Barnett. And so somebody has to be able to fall into the background. We've seen Bosch do it. We have seen, we saw Kevin Love do it. We have seen, I think, you know, previously it was Kevin Durant. Or I'm sorry, not Kevin, Clay Thompson, right? He's kind of the guy that you think could probably have more. We saw James Harden do it in his first stint when he was with Oklahoma City. it would be interesting to see what happens with the Kyrie and Hayward and Horford. You know, Parker, Genobilly and Duncan, I think it stands to reason that

Genobly's numbers could have been way bigger if you were played in a different scenario. So the point is somebody has to sacrifice that somebody's numbers take a big hit. You hope their efficiency doesn't take a big hit, but they've got to fall back a little bit. And I think that is the, it seems to me that George, would be more likely to be that guy than Carmelo. But I don't know. Do you feel that way because he's kind of, because he hasn't like necessarily always asserted himself as that guy in the past.

So like naturally he, I guess from like a psychological perspective, he might be the guy to take that backseat. Like is that kind of your reasoning there? Because I think a lot of people will hear that and say, well, no, Paul George is a better player than Carmelo Anthony, which he is. But I think,

I think what you're saying is that just from his personality, he might take that back. He has less of that alpha personality. I don't think there's any doubt about that. I think that's fair. People could say it's misguided for Carmelo, that he should have been more of a teen guy, whatever. But Carmelo is more of the I'm the man kind of guy.

Again, everybody can be forced to be the man when they are clearly the best guy on the team, like we saw with Bosch. Bosch's numbers were fantastic in Toronto. I mean, his team wasn't winning on the highest level, but his numbers were great. And he wasn't some kind of radically different player when he went to Miami, but he had to play a role.

He had to kind of figure out how to be with those other two guys. And so, yeah, I think personality-wise, I could see it. I feel it's much more likely that George, would be the guy that would assimilate more so the Carmelo. And if they don't, if neither of them do, that's when it becomes a problem. I mean, I was thinking about this the other night. Once upon a time, there was a cover of a Sports Illustrated where it was like,

this is going to be fun. And every media member and everybody in the free world picked the Lakers once they assembled Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, and Dwight Howard. Everybody. And that was a disaster. I don't, I think that's the only one, though. I can think of that was three what we thought at the time were great, great players joining up together and then it becoming an unmitigated disaster, right?

Like obviously that stands out because it was the cover Sports Illustrated and it was a premier franchise and whatever else. So we haven't seen one that is rendered horrible results. Most of these teams have figured it out, whether it was my answer. or LeBron when he went to the Cavs or Boston with the with the Garnett Pierce Allen. Most of the big three stuff has worked out so far when they've thrown the guys together and they've just kind of figured it out. Could you think of any others? Like I can't think of any others that were like.

I was just thinking while you were talking, Chris, about the Stunder Big Three. And I think I think this team is going to be good in the regular season, right? Like they were going to be good with Melo. They're going to be good without Melo. It doesn't really matter. Like the team's going to be good with Westbrook and Paul George really leading the way. The question is like how does this dynamic evolve and how do they learn to adapt to each other like in those playoffs situations? I mean for Carmelo like in the past, like I think back to Nuggets, Lakers.

I don't know what year it was 09, something like that where Carmelo was playing defense and he was still scoring at a high level. Can Carmelo do that at this age? Like when Thunder make the playoffs and they're in a playoff series, can those guys play two-way basketball? Can Russell Westbrook step it up on the defensive end if he's taking a little bit less of an offensive load? Carmelo in that third star role, second star role, whatever it is that he gets, can he step it up on the defensive end of the floor? Because I think, I think this could be like a defining year for Carmelo Anthony.

I mean, his legacy has been, I guess, tarnished in some ways after, you know, a failed stint in New York where they really didn't do anything in the playoffs at all. So can Carmelo kind of changed perception of him? Like, here's what I can do when I'm around great players. Because what I wrote about on the ringer this week was Team USA Mello was very, very good. The version we saw there when he's surrounded by great players is someone who's just like hitting spot up threes, attacking off of closeouts, even doing a little bit more playmaking, more so than just stopping the ball and really just iso, ISO, ISO, ISO.

That style we see in the NBA from him. Can he do that? I mean, at his age, can he make that change by April or into May and maybe into June, which I don't think that's going to happen? But I don't know. I mean, that to me is like the difficulty I have with this because they're going to be good in the regular season. Like I don't even, I don't even think that's like a concern at all.

It's about how good will they be by April? And it's interesting because you think about what is your crunch time five, you know, because that's what we always talk about. When we're talking about these big games, these big series, when it matters most, it's nip-tuck down the stretch. You would imagine that there's going to be a lot of times where those three are going to be flanked with

because of what you brought up, the defensive stuff, they're going to be flanked with Roberson, and they're going to be flanks with Patrick Patterson. And that's if everybody goes small, right? I would think that... Robeson's your center. He's like your center there. He's like, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Patterson's your center and right. Roberson's your perimeter guy that can really, you know, how, I mean like Patterson can space. Roberson can't. So like you could put Roberson like on the baseline and Patterson can be your floor space. So on defense it's like the opposite. But on the offensive end like Roberson can operate as like your center because he can't

space the floor for shit. Well, the other thing I'd say is you do need guys that don't need shots to be effective. When you are putting that together, right? when you're putting that together, and sometimes if it's two great players, you got to worry about the other three that are flanking them. And if it's three great players, those two other guys have got to be able to be role players, right? Somebody is not going to be getting shots. And they actually do have perfect guys for that scenario, which are Patterson, right, that can be

efficient. But more importantly, Roberson and Stephen Adams, like, if they don't get the ball, it's not a big deal, right? They just play a role. and somebody's got to be able to play a role on these teams. And they've kind of got guys that will, like those other three, I know that there's going to be, you know, a fight for shots, but there still are, especially with the pace that you play, a lot of shots of game.

And those other two, like if they take five or six shots in a game, and that may be even high, you know what I mean? It's not that big of a deal, right? Like there's going to be, and you look up and down their team, team, and this is by virtue of obviously spending the money on three great players, this is not deep. Like there's nobody on the bench that you go, wow, he should really be playing more, right? So there's going to be moments where they pull out Westbrook, you know, I mean, obviously

it's been horrible. When they pulled out Westbrook, they've been dead to rights. But you better believe they'll pull Westbrook and George out and Carmelo will just be taking every damn shot playing with the second unit guys. I mean, they'll mix and match that for sure. with the second unit. And so I don't know. I think on that sense, it works for sure.

And I also kind of like... That's what could help in some ways. If you're staggering these guys and you get Carmelo feasting on second units, I mean, that's pretty appealing. You're right, though. Like, they don't have a lot else coming off their bench. I mean, Kyler can be playing in minutes. Raymond Felton is at least an upgrade over Kristen.

Abreins is going to have to step up. Got a rookie and Terrence Ferguson, who I don't think he's close to ready to play. or contribute. I think he's going to be solid down the line, but he's not ready now. Jeremy Grant, maybe he makes progress, but not a lot of depth on that team. Really not at all. I mean, you're going to be asking a lot of one of your third star, Carmelo or Paul George, to really be elevating those bench units. Once we saw LeBron, Wade, and Bosch work out the way that it did, and obviously Garnett Pierce and Allen, and we saw with Kyrie and LeBron and Kevin. We saw with Kyrie and Kevin Love. And we've seen so many of these work out that my sense is usually these are great

players. It's a great problem to have. And they'll figure it out. And I do think that George is the meeker of the three, the meekest of the three individuals. And that is not a, I'm not saying that as a slight. I'm saying if I have to predict who kind of falls back, he has to be the Kevin Love that sacrifices. He has to be the Chris Bosch that sacrifices, because I don't know if mellows the guy. that has that in him. Like you see yesterday when it was one of the great moments of the press conference was when they asked him about, they asked Carmelo about, you know,

kind of playing power forward or possibly coming off the bench. And he started laughing as a guy. He's like, who me? Like, I mean, you know, like, we don't have to worry about where he is status within the league, right? He's not going to come off the bench. I'll tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you a fascinating one. After I started thinking so much about this big three and how it meshes and kind of how you build a team and who the others are with you.

Yesterday we finally got word because all these teams were doing their media day. We kind of got a timeline on Isaiah Thomas. And this is something that I didn't really know. I just didn't know the answer of when Thomas was coming back. And I did not know it was going to be as long as it is. But they basically gave the timeline of January. So the first two and a half months of the season. And of these, quote, big threes, you'd imagine it'd be him, LeBron and Love now, right?

Instead of him, LeBron, Kyrie in love. That's the one that's really hard to meld. Wurgenowski is reporting that Wade's going to sign up with Cleveland more than likely, and it could be done very soon by tomorrow. But, I mean, I think the type of player Isaiah is, and the way he has functioned, he is not one that I think will just easily assimilate into a team that's already been playing together as a unit for two and a half months, right? That one could be a little odd when you're trying to, A, put together a new group of really great players together and B, like, going to be doing it on the fly in January with a team that's already used to functioning the way they function. Don't you see that?

I mean, you're more of a Thomas expert than I. Yeah, no, I agree, Chris, that, you know, it's going to be tough to really, really put him into the system midseason and have him learn the habits of LeBron and Dwayne Wade and all his new teammates. But, you know, at the same time, I'm like, this is kind of like a cop-out answer for me. But it's like, all it matters for that team is that they have it by April. So, I mean, maybe coming back in January, it gives them enough time to work things out. then they have the All-Star break to have time to really get practice time in together. So maybe it can work out. For Isaiah Thomas, I think really the key thing is I'm going to be interested if,

so let's say Cleveland's going to sign Wade, which they're going to. I heard last month during the Kyrie drama, a source told me that like Cleveland was basically planning on it happening before training camp. I thought, I thought Wade would have gotten bought out sooner than he actually did. So I think that's going to happen, like Adrian Wojornowski said, probably by Wednesday. We'll see Wade. Maybe by the time this podcast goes up, we'll get news for that. The interesting thing is, like, Cleveland's got a lot of guards.

How is Tyron Liu going to juggle all those guards? You get Derek Rose, Dwayne Wade, Isaiah Thomas, even Jose Calderon signed there, probably expecting minutes. You got a lot of Maltz to feed. Iman Schumpert, J.R. Smith. Are you going to be playing smaller this year? are we going to see more small ball from the Cleveland Cavaliers where Thompson is the guy who maybe gets less playing time and Kevin Love shifts up to the five and LeBron plays more four and we see more guard-oriented lineups? Because I think that might be the way to really get these guys all with the minutes that they need and deserve, but also create more space for the team. Because that's what was the key for Isaiah Thomas last year in Boston.

When Al Horford spaced the floor and was at the five, there's so much space on the floor. And if Thompson is on the floor with Dwayne Wade, there's not going to be a lot of spacing out there for Isaiah to do what he did in Boston, assuming he's healthy. So I think if you're Cleveland, you're going to want to try to play smaller and faster. And you have the guards that can help you do that. It's a matter of how good some of these guys are. I'm not too high at all on Derek Rose at this point in his career. It depends on how healthy Isaiah Thomas is. It depends on what Dwayne Wade can contribute at his age with a little bit more of a limited role.

So there's a lot of questions there, but maybe there's an interesting mix that can work out and really help Isaiah Excel and kind of continue on the same trajectory that he was on. Yeah, there are going to be those moments where theoretically they could put out, you know, if Wade, as we expect, signs up there. I mean, you think about the star power of the last five to ten years. And I know like we clearly nobody thinks of Derek Rose the same way, but he was still. once upon a time an MVP of the league, right? And when he throw them all out there, it's like Wade and LeBron and love and maybe Isaiah Thomas and Derek Rose, I mean, you're just looking at, these are massive, you know, if nothing else, forget whatever their game is at the current moment.

These are like big celebrities, star power guys that are out there at the same time. Like, even their drags or even their guys that are coming off the bench, like they got a freaking former MVP that's coming off the bench. You know, I mean, it's just, and I could not help but think. I don't know if he saw some of Wade's talk about after the buyout with Chicago. One of the things he mentioned was, I don't know if we're in this spot if, how does it play out if Rondo doesn't go down? And I can't help but think to myself, you know, and you know, I talked about that series. They were up two oh.

Who cares? Huh? that was in April that's my thought think about the way that's played out since what is Boston's offseason if that happens and what is Chicago's

if that happens all I'm saying is Wade and Butler might still be in Chicago if they beat Boston and Rondo for that matter they may all three be in Boston who knows if Gordon Haywis

they'd still be running on the playoff treadmill they'd still be stradling on their way in the middle of the league be, but I'm saying that's where there would be. That series had, and that injury possibly had a massive effect on the NBA. That's what I'd say. That Wade would not be going to Cleveland. I think they still would have lost a series on all likelihood.

But at the same time, even if the series went like seven, right? If it went seven, let's just say. And let's say every game was super, super, super competitive, went down to the wire, right? To the final buzzer. Maybe even then, even if they had they still lost, it would have been a little different heading into the summer. But would that be for the best for Chicago? Could it have been a blessing in disguise that they lost that series?

I mean, I'm just trying to play a little devil's advocate here. But I mean, I don't like the deal that they made trading for marketing. I mean, I mean, listen, you know where I am. You know, I know. I know where I am on this. My answer would be unequivocally no. It would not be better. It's not better because I come from the point of view.

You see the way? I know it's title or bust. But on the other hand, if I'm a Chicago fan, I go, at least I got to go to the Dam Arena or tune in at night. And I get to root for Jimmy Butler and I get to root for Dwayne Wade. And yeah, the team's frustrating. But look at who they're either going to the stands to watch or watching on TV this year. And when does this? And you don't trust your front office.

and you don't know, you're worried about your coach and like, look up and down my roster. Like, what, A, what am I rooting for B? Like, what's the, what's happening here? Like, where, what's the end game? How long is it going to be to watch somebody win again? You know how they do the introductions and they did like this? They announced the star player last. Who's the fifth guy they announced with their opening that starting line.

It's like Bobby Portis. Who's the last guy they announced? All right. Lowry Marketing doesn't start. Who's their fifth guy? Chris Dunn? I think it's Zach Levine. Robin Lopez.

No, Zach Levine probably won't be playing because of the torn ACL. So if Levine's out, if Levine's out, I mean, who is it? Robin Lopez? No, I think it's, I, this is sick, but it's probably Meritich just because he's been there. Yeah, it could be Meritich. That's true. He's the elder statesman. Oh, man.

That's sad. They're going to be really sad this year. I mean, what is your way? I mean, you just got to hope that Levine comes back and is, you know, A, turns into a better slash different player, which may be far-fetched or that, and then you got to, I mean, Chris Dunn becoming a star is really like your only hope. Like that Chris Dunn turns out to be an extremely awesome NBA player. And that all I'll say to Chicago Bulls fans, just watch a lot of college basketball this year. Watch a lot of college basketball and feel good about watching Michael Porter and DeAndre Aiton and Marvin Bagley. And watch some international basketball and feel good about watching Luca Donchich.

I mean, just watch those guys and imagine them in a Bulls uniform. And you will feel really good when you watch the Bulls lose. That's all I have to say. Just watch those guys and feel good about the Bulls losing this year. I think most people are the best. All right, let me get back to the mellow thing because I think most people's expectations or where or their predictions for the upcoming season were that nothing will change regarding where people have the Warriors. People will still have the Warriors as the number one team in the Western Conference. What goes on behind them will be a source of debate.

I think most people had Houston second after the Chris Paul acquisition going into. this past weekend. I kind of feel like a lot of people have switched on that, right? I think you will see more people. And then the Spurs become like the forgotten team, right? Somehow they become the forgotten team, the team that people keep pushing down the list. But don't you think if most people had Houston as the number two team behind Golden State, I guessed what do you think will happen with most of those predictions?

And has your mind changed at all? You know, I still have Houston second, ahead of Oklahoma City in San Antonio. I'd still probably have San Antonio ahead of Oklahoma City just by a hair because of their system and continuity. And we've seen it for 18, 19, 20 years running that no matter who they plug into their system, those guys just happen to elevate their play in Excel. And let's be serious here.

We also can't discount the possibility that Kauai Leonard, continues getting better. I think that needs to be factored into the conversation with San Antonio as well. He's made improvements every year of his career. He's only turned 26 this summer. There's no saying that he's not capable of elevating his play further than he did even last year. So I think that, that for me keeps them at three. So I'm still at Warriors 1, Rockets 2, San Antonio 3 and Oklahoma City 4. But Oklahoma City certainly did a good job helping close the gap, though, with that deal. I mean, and we have to remember last year, San Antonio won 61 games, and that included losing, hey, that includes losing four of their last five.

I mean, going into the last week of the season, they were 60 and 17. 60 and 17. Yeah. They were like a game behind the Warriors for large portions of the season for best record. I mean, they were like hair just right next to them, a large majority of the season. But so you would have San Antonio, then this did not. I mean, wouldn't you have had Oklahoma City four prior to this weekend? The Carmelo Anthony acquisition did not move the needle at all in terms of playoff seed for you?

No. I mean, it moved the needle in terms of this team is more of a competitor than they were before the trade. But it didn't move the needle in terms of ranking. So like one, two, three, four is the. the same, right? But if you're like grading the teams, like let's say the Warriors are 100 and the rockets are like a 90 and the spurs are like an 84, maybe the Thunder are now like a 80 instead of a 72. You know what I mean? Like they moved up in terms of how I feel about them, but they didn't necessarily move up their rankings. So they got better. Don't get me wrong. They definitely

got better. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Kibbman. They had four. 47 wins last year, and that's without Paul Georgia, Carmelo Anthony. I mean, I got to think those guys are worth, and I know that the kid averaged a triple double, Westbrook, but still, I mean, they had 47 last year. It wasn't like, it's almost like, you know, at some points we kind of think that the Oklahoma City Thunder were a team struggling to get into the playoffs

or maybe like a 500-level team, I mean, they won 47 with what they had last year. And now you're adding whatever you, wherever you want to say Carmelo is ranked, that's fine. Everybody has a super high opinion of Paul George. Paul George is, you know, he's been the best player on what has been a really good team, a team that made an Eastern Conference Finals appearance a few years back, which, by the way, either one of them probably make the Eastern Conference Finals. That's, you know, that Nick's team, that super bizarre 50-plus win team,

I mean, had a shot. They had a shot at the East Final, right? The Pacers beat them, right? The Pacers beat them with that whole Carmelo going to the rim and Hibbert meeting him at the rim. And those games that went down to the wire. But bizarrely, that Knicks team could have gone to the Eastern Conference Finals that all just fell apart after that season.

But, I mean, you're talking about two outstanding basketball players and you're adding that to Westbrook and a team that already won 47. I don't know, man. I think there's a chance. If they figured that thing out, they could be devastating for sure. I'm a question for you, Chris.

Would you put any of the top four Eastern Conference teams ahead of any of those four Western Conference teams? I'm talking about Cleveland, Toronto, Washington, and Boston. Would any of those four be ahead of any of the four, top four West teams in your eyes? Regular season or the whole thing? I guess like I just general power rankings during the year.

I mean kind of like what the context we were discussing. I mean, I do not think LeBron would win the West. So that's for certain. So now the question is would they be better than two, three or four? And I would say, I would not think you're insane.

Now again, I got to know that they're just going to go all out. because we know they didn't go all out last year. I mean, that's a team that didn't care if they had home court advantage. It did not come back to bite them, so I guess in some sense they're validated. Might have played longer series than they would have if they would have had home court. But yeah, if you told me Cleveland this upcoming year, in the end, when it comes time to bank on who's, like, let's say something catastrophic happened to the Warriors. They lost a couple guys and they're not going to be the finals rep.

I mean, if they had Wade, I think my opinion would be on the surface. I would pick the calves over any of the other three. If I frame it that way, I would pick the cavaliers. If you told me, let's just fast forward. Let's act like the season just happened. But the warriors aren't going to be there because of extenuating circumstances. They got beat. So they're not the rep.

So it's going to be the Spurs. It's going to be the Rockets or it's going to be the Thunder. I think I would pick the calves over any of those three. And then if you told me the Warriors are going to be there, obviously I'm taking the Warriors. As we're talking about this, Chris, you're mentioning regular season or playoffs. I'm thinking of myself, wouldn't it be nice if the regular season had more importance? I mean, we're talking about, like, Cleveland coasting into the playoffs. I mean, I wish the NBA had like a buy week for the top two seeds like the NFL does or something

like that because then you would have these teams they would have to fight to get one of those top two Cs in order to get a buy week or something like that it's interesting you say that because I that would be cool I was actually thinking about this the other day because I am one of those that grew up in a totally different structure of which many of the baseball lifers clung on to in a in a great great way right people baseball was so so seriously about its traditions as were its longtime fans. And so it was division, you had to win your division to be playing in that. Or you had to win your division to be playing in the playoffs.

Or teams, the only time you would ever play against another league is when you got to the World Series. And so they had to take these steps throughout the last several years. And so I'm saying that for a reason. I am a St. Louis Cardinals fan, right? I don't talk a lot of baseball. It's not like something that I, like I have a fantasy team of which I've, you know, I've been in a fantasy league for years and years and years and years. And I don't really, like, in terms of where I've been, the market I've been in,

football and basketball are so huge and baseball is not huge. And it's kind of like what I, it's weirdly like the sport that I don't talk about that much, but it's kind of an escape. I just get to watch it for fun, right? I don't feel like I have to. I keep up with the team, whatever. So I've been a Cardinals fan for a long time, and obviously they've been great for a long time.

But this particular year, like they're playing the Cubs, right, tonight and tomorrow on ESPN, and then they have four games after that with the Brewers. I have hated this season, right? They've just been, and it's been frustrating. Their bullpen is blown like 30 games. And there's a point to this, and that is they still have a chance at the wild card because of that stupid thing they put in years ago, right?

There's two teams that have a shot at that. And so even if it's just for the end and their season is epically long, like I have to, like they've roped me back into caring for this last like week because they might make the playoffs of which I thought they had no chance in hell for most of the season. But now they do. And so I was trying to think about that in terms of basketball. Like if there's something you could do like that, and I'm never one that has particularly cared. Like it is kind of goofy. They play 162. And if you get that second wild card, you play a one game playoff to see who gets to go play the top seat.

Right. So that's kind of the position they're in right now. And I was trying to think if there's a way basketball-wise. Because it did not make me care about the- There is. Yeah, it didn't make me care about the- It didn't make me care about the regular season for the Cardinals much more. But I'll be damned if it didn't make me care about this last week and a half more, right?

I'll tell you what. I wrote last week on the Ringer, we did our preview week, league hack week. And I did something on there that was kind of about ideas from NBA executives, coaches, trainers, whoever. And my favorite idea was from a player manager. And I'm just going to read straight from the article. But this is what he suggested. It's exactly what I think you're kind of hinting on him. Chris, a playoff wildcard play-in tournament.

What he said was allow teams who had no chance of making the playoffs to get in NCAA tournament style. It could be a one-game playoff like Major League Baseball uses with its wildcard matchup, or it could be more like March Madness with all four lower seeds up for grabs and one-game tournaments. The hope is it would add excitement to the bottom half of the league. The playing game and the potential extra playoff games should that team advance, would add more revenue to.

And so basically, like, there's so many different ways you could go with that. You could put, you could put, like, the bottom eight teams that would normally miss the playoffs into a one-game tournament. You could put, like, seeds eight through 12 into a one-game tournament to get just the eight-seed up for grabs. And that would create excitement in the latter half of the season because, like, imagine the heat were so hot at the end of the year, right? The whole second half of the season, if you had them in, like, a one-game playoff against the Bulls for the eight-seed, that would have been really cool to watch, I think. I mean, for that fight for the final spot, I think it would have been fun. I think whoever you talk to, they might have ganked our boss's idea. You know, once upon a time, I remember Bill wrote this, you know, for a long time he was talking about that,

what he called the entertaining as hell tournament. And he was the breakdown was, I think, I can't recall what, how, how he exactly broke it down, but he had like, you know, it was same thing. Number one versus number 16. The top seven seeds in each conference. This is what Bill was always writing about. I went back and pulled up a grant. I see it now.

A grant feature. You're right. So whoever you're talking to just ganked him. The top seven seeds in each conference make the playoffs, a single elimination tournament for the last two playoffs spots. Yeah, that is too funny. That's unbelievable. That is perfect.

That's really funny. I mean, it's a great idea. It's a really good idea. As you're, as you're reciting it, I'm like, I think this is Bill Simmons. I'm pretty sure Bill Simmons has been talking about this. That's right. That's from 20, you got the 2011 article pulled up. He originally proposed it, I think, in 07, right?

I don't know. That is too funny. It's a good idea, though. And I think it would add excitement to the league. I mean, even beyond that, I mean, it's like Kirk Goldsbury talked about this before on Grant Land. If you just get rid of the damn conferences, you can have a one to 16 playoff tournament. I just don't think, I mean, look, the NBA is so great right now.

It would be risky to change things. But at the same time, just because things are great doesn't mean you can't make it better. Because if things are great and you kind of just become complacent, they can get. get worse too. Just kind of look at the NFL as an example for that, how the games kind of degraded in recent years. I do, I do, I do wonder, Kevin, because as, as time goes on, if, if that might actually get more traction. And the reason I say that is because you are, if they de-incentivize teams sucking, right, given the lottery reform. And you have so many of these guys. guys, if this becomes commonplace where the best players, somehow, some way, end up going to play with each other, right? That this becomes very common. It was just the beginning years ago, but that you aren't going to see guys with just their own teams and then a couple other guys.

You're going to see guys make decisions together, which will absolutely happen next summer. There will be packaged deals and decisions to go play with each other. Just like Wade is about to go play with LeBron again in Cleveland or next summer, there's rumors all these guys may go to the Lakers together or all these guys may go and play with whoever together. If that becomes commonplace like Durant went and joined up with the wars last year, do you have a lot of franchises saying we got to find other ways for our fans, to stay engaged the whole season because there's there becomes an immense amount of teams

that sit back at the beginning and unlike the NFL where hope springs eternal and you feel like you always got a chance in the NBA you theoretically could have a lot of teams unless you're a Jets fan yeah the right right or for that matter a Rams fan which I always kind of you know I was kind of defend St. Louis on that I mean I went back and look do you know that they had not had a damn winning

season in 13 years. Like, find me the city that would support that. It's impossible. It is impossible to suck in the NFL for like five years in a row. James. Jared golf is looking pretty good so far. They're two and one, man. Jared golf is looking better in a second year.

I know. Well, no, he's got the frigging 31-year-old quarterback whisperer playing that is his coach there in L.A. That's true. That's true. McVeigh guy. And they got Wade Phillips as their job. defensive coordinator, which by the way,

fun fact, every team that Wade Phillips has gone through for like the last 19 years and he's been to several has made the playoffs. Like he is the defensive Merlin. The guy is he is so good. And their defense has sucked in these last couple of games for sure.

But he is great at what he does. Not to turn into the the ring around the NFL show for a man. But when you think about their core, if golf is good. Todd Gurley, Robert Woods, Sammy Watkins. I mean, they get some good weapons on that offense. I'm coming for that neck. Hey, hey,

Robert Mays, Kevin Clark, Tate, Lombardi, I'm coming from that neck bone. I'm taking that show too. No, all right,

my original point is most NFL franchises can go into the season with some level of hope. If this becomes commonplace, and so many of the best players are always just playing with each other as collections on these teams,

um, did you get to have a lot of teams? and fans of teams that go into the season and know my team has no shot at winning a title this year. Right? And that becomes more prevalent. And so do they look to other ways to make everybody more engaged throughout the season? Right? It is the one kind of thing.

I mean, obviously you feel like you're really up against it when you're talking about Cleveland and Boston. But it is the one bright spot, if I'm a fan of an Eastern Connors, conference team, right? It's like, let's say it all fell into place. Nets fans have hope for the playoffs. Nets fans have hope for the playoffs. That says it all, really. Right?

Or like, hey, let's say, let's say you've gone through the, you've gone through the wars of having to watch all these 60 lost seasons and you're a Sixers fan. Like, this is, this could happen right now. Not when, you know, but like your team could actually be in the playoffs and get playoff experience this year. And in most decades or scenarios, a team that young still, they ain't ready, right, to be making playoffs yet,

especially because the big minutes are going to be played by guys like a Fultz, like a Simmons. Even Embed for that matter has only got 31 games log. Like guys that just don't have experience. Even Durant and Westbrook, you know, took a couple years before they're, you know, a team that's playing in the playoffs. but like that is the one you know shining light of all these stars moving off and so many of these teams not being any good um is that you've got to you know there's a lot more teams that i don't know who you could be a fan of in the east

i guess if you're chicago you got like no hope right nicks probably no hope but i could see yeah i mean maybe if poor zingis becomes like 28 point program score out of nowhere. I mean, he just totally puts a team on his back. Maybe if that's what happens and he stays healthy. But yeah, I agree. Bulls no chance. Pacers maybe no chance. No, yeah. I'm a tough time.

I'm still reluctant to still say no chance though. I know. No. Easter's always a chance. But you would, but you would admit if we're Indiana fans, probably if we're Hawk fans, you got a tough time talking yourself into it, you know?

Yep. But I'm, you better believe Miami fans. That's really about it. No, if you're a fan of Miami, Detroit, Charlotte, uh, Orlando, I still be pretty down. Like, I mean, what, what, I don't, right?

It'd be pretty hard to foresee. I mean, who's going to drop out of the playoffs this year? Atlanta drops out Indiana and Chicago. So there's like three new spots up for grab. So Miami eases into one of them. Yeah. Then you get the two others up for grabs. I'm probably putting money on Philly.

is one of them and Charlotte is the other yeah yeah no matter anybody maybe if maybe if philly philly doesn't really live up to expectations if mb doesn't say healthy if you know simmons gets off those slow start then maybe that other spot is up for grab for somebody else i think you're right i think charlotte should get in they should we'll see what happens i'll tell you this with given the insanity of the whole last weekend with that you know the the the trump and the Curry and the Warrior stuff, and then we had the hoodie mellow getting moved to Oklahoma City. And then we have, by today, we're talking about inevitably by the next time we're talking, more than likely, Dwayne Wade is going to be a member of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Holy mackerel. I mean, this thing, this thing stayed hot and something was going on. There was a little break in August when most every national NBA writer clocked out, and many were out of the country, and then that whole Cavs and Celtics thing happened. But I think since the season ended, since we saw the Warriors hold up that trophy, all the way to now, which should usually be pretty silent given training camps opening, right? nothing has been settled like this has been

and I'm not using hyperbole the most insane off season I can ever remember I mean I it all the way to literally this morning we're talking about a guy who has got rings

who has made tons of all-star teams just deciding who he's going to go latch on with and Dwayne Wade and in any other you know in any other world all in most any other offseason any of these stories just dominates all conversation and instead it feels like we've had two or three a week by the time donald trump or sends an invitation to the world champions we're already talking about garmello

with dwayne wade right dude it's it's a it's a wild wild we world we live in now just period just the world is crazy the NBA for NBA fans where NBA is a big part of your world it was just extra crazy. I mean, it was really just like we were in a tornado the entire summer. And we are going to be... Constantly getting swirled around with constant news. It was wild. And obviously the solemn prayer for anybody

and all of these, you know, fans of the NBA, you know, at large and also fans of specific teams, the only thing we pray for is right, the next, these games are going to start about a week from today, training camps are this week, and that by, you know, you

knock on wood and you just pray that by next Tuesday we're not talking about how our opinions have already been altered greatly because of some godforsaken injury, right? That's what you hope. You hope you can get out of this preseason. Get out of these training camps. Get out of these preseason without, you know, without losing some of the big guns that we, you know, now we're going to get to see play together and play for these different teams.

And, I mean, there's so much friggin intrigue. I can't wait for the season to start now. preseason games are starting a week from or less than a week away. They'll be starting by this weekend. Crazy. It's already here, Kevin. It came fast, man. There was no offseason.

It was just a full 12 calendar season. It was fun. I'm looking forward to actual games being played, though. And then we get an early trade deadline. February 6th. February 6th is the new deadline before All-Star break. So rumors could be starting up earlier during the season. I could see trades happening sooner.

Those random January trades could instead happen maybe in December. That'll be interesting to see. I am ready for regular season games too, though I will. I'll be watching preseason basketball. I've already got a circle, Kevin. I'm going to go watch the Grizzlies Big Three of Conley, Gasol, and Parsons take on the Orlando Magic next Monday night. Oh, yeah. Is Chandler, how many games is Chandler Parsons flying this year?

I hope he stays healthy. He said he feels great. He said he feels great. I hope he feels great. Everybody feels great at Media Day. Best he's felt in three years. Watch out. And by the way, anybody wants to go to that good ticket is still available.

Like all of them. Grizzly's magic preseason. I can't wait. I've got it circled. They got to get your Michael Green back, baby. You ain't like. I got to get them back. Kevin, you have an unbelievable week and I'll talk to you next Tuesday.

Thanks, brother. You too, Chris. That was fun. Thanks to all of our Ringer NBA show listeners. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes. We will talk to you next week.