The Ringer NBA Show - Cavs Can't Play D, the Raptors' Next Move, and Ball vs. Fox With Kevin O'Connor (Ep. 90)

Episode Date: March 28, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss the Cavs' putrid defensive effort against the Spurs (5:00), historically bad defenses to win titles (12:00), the Celtics taking over the 1-seed (21:00), Toronto's five-year plan (28:00), the 2011 Spurs' thought experiment (39:00), and De'Aaron Fox vs. Lonzo Ball (45:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode is brought to you by The Masked Man Show. It's the biggest time of the year for professional wrestling. WrestleMania is this weekend, and David Shoemaker is going to preview it all with a couple very special guests. In fact, I heard Simmons say he was going to be on the Masked Man Show. You can subscribe to the Masked Man Show on iTunes, SoundCloud, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor.

What up, Chris? Hey, man, so last night I'm going to settle in and I'm going to watch the marquee matchup in the NBA between the Cavaliers and the San Antonio Spurs. And what the hell was that? Oh, boy. Another marquee matchup that was supposed to be a great game. But no, not so much. That looked like that was surprising in many ways. I thought this might be the game where the Cavaliers actually pick it up on the.

the defensive end of the floor. And granted, I guess you would say that they held the spurs to 103. They're a mess on that end, Chris. I feel like there's so many levels to their issues. They have old guys that just aren't good defenders. Their efforts down, maybe that's because they're fatigued after two straight finals runs or six straight for LeBron. There just seems to be a hell of a lot of issues for that team on that end.

Okay, so there's a couple things. A, it seems, it would seem to me it would be impossible to, you know, the stat is going around all the time about them having the second worst defense since the all-star break. Given the amount of crappy teams in the NBA, that seems just implausible to me that you could be that bad, right? Like, you could be that bad. But sure enough, they are. I am more on the side of personnel, which is, okay, they should clearly be better than second

worst in the NBA since the all-star break. And they should be better than 23rd overall. all. But when you are rolling out there, Kyrie Irving and Kyle Corver and Kevin Love and Darren Williams and Channing Fry and J.R. Smith has never been, you know,

he has never been mistaken for Scotty Pippin. I mean, many of your best players, or certainly guys that are in your rotation for the Cavs, are not good defenders. And then of course, right, compromises everything when they're playing at

the same time. And this is what you get. I'm starting to believe that it is a very serious problem that they can't just flip the switch when it comes playoff time. What about you? So I agree with you that I think the personnel is the main cause of their issues because those guys just flat out, you know, some of them flat out just aren't good defensive players. So they have, they have issues on that end. They have more than one week link. However, I do wonder, come playoff time, when they trim that rotation to eight guys, will they be fine? I mean, you look at the top end of their rotation. They'll still have weak lengths. Kevin Love's not a great defensive player. Carrey Irving's not a good defensive player, but they can trim it down to the

point where I think they're a little bit stronger and naturally, I think effort level will rise. You would assume that happens and maybe it doesn't. But I do think that part of what we're seeing right now is they're going deeper into their bench. They're essentially running with a nine or ten man rotation. trim that down to eight in the first, second, and third round, I think they'll be okay. And then usually in the finals, they trim it down to seven, sometimes with the eighth guy. And so if they do make it that far, I think they'll be fine. But at the same time, that doesn't change the fact that they still have more weak links now than I think they did in past years. Because all the guys they added, Kyle Corver, Darren Williams, those guys are good offensive players.

They help on that. And Kyle Corver is an incredible shooter. Darren Williams is a reliable point card. but neither of them are good defensive players. So if you need to bring those guys into the game, they have potential issues. And the other part of it really is just the two straight finals runs for all the other guys. LeBron's been the sixth straight. He's a superhuman.

Fatigue clearly isn't an issue for him. He's, he's an android. However, Thompson is a human. J.R. Smith is a human. Kyrie Irving is a human. Those guys, they might be failing fatigue after two straight finals runs. And sometimes I think there's a little bit too much focus on LeBron being superhuman with what he's doing and less on what these other guys might be going through after such long,

long playoff runs. You know what I've thought about recently, too, because clearly such an onus has been put on how bad they are defensively as I've been watching them. You know what I've found myself thinking? So Tristan Thompson is not somebody that is going to stand back there and be your backline of your defense stalwart, right? They really need that too because they get beat off the dribble so many times. And they are, according to Sport v.

you, the slowest team going. So if you're going to be playing, you know, half-core basketball and even when you do miss shot, it's going to have to play full-core basketball, they're going to have to have somebody that can protect the rim. And Thompson is not getting the job done, probably not the best suited to do that. And I found myself thinking, you know who they could really use? Andrew Bogot. And that is, they had him, right?

They had it. And that turned into a catastrophe because he got hurt. in the first game. But I think Bogot, given their defensive problems, could really help them as a backline defender because Thompson has to go up. I mean, you saw them up against Gortod. You know, these big strong guys,

they can really, you know, they can muscle him around. And they don't really have anything else. They don't have another player to play at center outside of Thompson. Unless Larry Sanders, unless Larry Sanders somehow turns out. it around unless he somehow gets himself into basketball, basketball shape by the time they're in the brink of the playoffs, and he's somebody who can offer, you know, room protection for eight to 12 minutes. I don't know if he can. I don't think anybody can really answer that question. Everything

we read about his workouts is that he was reportedly out of basketball shape and he didn't appear ready. The Cavaliers took a chance on him because like you said, they lost out on Bogot. They lost out on the guy that they needed as part of their rotation. But maybe Larry Sanders could become a guy who, hey, maybe he helps them win a game. I don't know. And as for Thompson, you're right that he's not quite a room protector, but I still think in the playoffs, when teams are in the half court and they're switching almost every screen, Thompson's really, really good at switching screens and in defending on the perimeter. So I think he might be able to help you more in playoff situations. But I still go back again to the fact that he's been to

two straight finals. Irving's been the two straight. Jarr Smith has two. And those guys, still might be feeling fatigue. And I do wonder if that'll impact them come April and maybe into May and perhaps into June as well. It doesn't seem like you're being really an alarmist on this, though. I mean, they're 8 and 10, right, in their last 18 games. Yeah. And they're 8 and 10 in their last 18 games.

They just got blown the hell out on national television. I mean, badly. You would figure they would get up for that one, right? I mean, they had the stage. I mean, I thought, okay, even if they've been dicking around, you're going to get a, you're going to get a home run effort out of them tonight. That's what I thought. You know, yeah, I mean, I felt the same way, but I just think back to the last year in January, they fired David Blatt. They fired their head coach because of the problems they were having.

It wasn't as much perhaps on the court. It was more off court, but they still had problems, nonetheless. Two years ago, they got off to that slow start where they were like a 500 team. I think like 16 games into the season or something. They were 8 and 8 and 8 and 7, something like that. And we were wondering, oh, they're going to mesh and they went all the way to the finals. And of course they lost. But I just look at the last two years and they've had bouts with struggles.

They've had times where they couldn't get it done for whatever reason it was. Maybe it was chemistry issues off the court or chemistry problems on the court. Right now, it's defense. And I just wonder if, you know, living in the moment, it feels like this will be a major problem. when they're in game seven of the finals in June, we'll look back and say, hey, wasn't it funny when we were talking about the Cavalier struggles on defense? Haven't they been amazing in the playoffs? I just feel like that's a possibility. I don't know if it will happen because the problems do seem very, very real right now for all the reasons we talked about personnel, fatigue,

and whatever else. But I do think there's a possibility it changes considering the fact that they still have a ton of talent on their team. And on paper, there's a lot. They're still the favorites in the Eastern Conference. So I don't want to dwell too much on how bad they look right now because they've had those moments the last two years. Tyron Liu said that he is in fact he laughed after the game when he talked about the Spurs running circles around him. He said that's the crazy part about it. We start off the right way. But teams are so much faster than us, Lou said.

They just look so much faster than we are. I mean, I mean, damn. It just looks like just beat us on the dribble, transition, just looking faster. And then Ramona Shelburne recounts, according to data from SportsVU on offense, the Spurs rank as the fifth fastest team in the league, while the Cavs rank last in the league. On defense, San Antonio is the third fastest team in the league. Cleveland is 26th. Wow.

Man. I just think it is tough, Kevin, when you're playing, you know what I mean? obviously if you're if those are the numbers on you you clearly play a very slow brand of basketball right um you're playing more half court basketball and the there is the yin and yang of your best offensive players are not it almost feels like you would love to have if you're going to throw out uh it feels like if you're going to have uh kevin love and kary irving and and lebron james out on the court right and now the other position is going to go to Tristan Thompson, who's kind of the, you know, do everything big.

The other guy needs to be an awesome defender, I would think, right, in order to make up for it. And that's just not the case. Whoever that fifth guy is and wherever you're going to play him, because clearly LeBron's malleable, you can play him anywhere. But it feels like that fifth guy, there's got to be, you know, there's stars and role players. And whoever that fifth guy is needs to be a role player and be a defense. of stalwart. And so, like, I don't know.

Is it, you know, I'mon Shumpert? Is it, I don't know. I don't know, right? I mean, you remember how weird it was when the numbers were really good with Delavadova on the court? Well, I think there's a, I think there's something to that, right, in the sense that just going to hassle people, defend his position. He's not going to take shots away from the stars by and large. And so I think there's a real value to the role player and the way it fits.

amongst the stars and I'm just not sure that whoever that fifth guy is that's on the court with those other four that they have a good fit for who the fifth guy is. So I think there's something to that and Delhi absolutely was very important to their success last year. I think we talked about in January or February before they brought in Darren Williams. They needed a point guard to really help ease the way there in terms of they needed somebody to take on the ball handling responsibility. But with that said, I wonder, you know, with Cleveland's issues, I think their main problem on defense,

and this is something you said with the Tyron Lute quote, is they look slow. And I just look at their numbers, and according to Synergy Sports Technology, they have the 30th ranked transition defense, but their half-court defense is 12th. And that's over the full season. I don't know what it is since the All-Star break,

but over the full season, they have the 12th best half-court defense, the worst transition defense. Is that something that changes in the playoffs? Maybe. Maybe it doesn't. But I know that I know everybody knows that in the playoffs, the game tends to slow down a little bit. It tends to become more of a half-court game. So I do wonder if that inherently helps them, even if their transition defense continues to slip. Or if the transition defensive issues are inherently,

all because of the fact that they're fatigued or they have effort. Maybe this is something that continues to be a prong, or maybe it's something that once they turn it on, that's what fixes itself, whereas with their defense, they still maintain what they've been doing, which isn't great, but it's not bad according to the numbers at least.

So I think they have guys that can take on that fifth role, Chris, but I still get back to in the playoffs, the game changes, and I still think when they trim their rotation, they might have that fifth guy. That being said, they would have to become a radically different defense than what they have. We would both admit that because you look back through history, the 23rd best defense, it doesn't win. It just doesn't.

You got to be, now maybe they can flip the switch and be way better. And they've done that in the past, as you've said, right? We have seen teams that became radically better defensive teams once it came playoff time. Like, wow, where did this come from? but number fire did a good study on that numberfire did a study since 1979 of the X amount of teams that have been to the finals only one only one team had a worse defensive rating than the average defensive rating that season during the regular season that team was the 2000 2001 Lakers only one team and that's a team that

turned it on in the playoffs on the defensive end of the floor but every other team that had a in the bottom half, none of them made the finals. And that's kind of illuminating for the Cavaliers. The thing is, though, not to get harp on this, but that Kobe Shaq team had two of the best players in the league. This Cavaliers team has LeBron James, the best player in the league, and two of the other best players as well, Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love sometimes being the best, one of the better power forwards.

So they have the ability to flip the switch just like that Lakers team did. coincidentally Tyron Loo getting stepped over. Yeah, yes, this is the one that lost only one game in the playoffs after having like a shitty regular season defense. Yeah, they were 15 and 1 in the playoffs. Damn. And they were coming off of finals win the year prior too. So I, that's where I just, that's where I'm not ready to totally leap in and say,

yeah, this is going to hold them back because we've seen, we've seen teams flip the switch. We've seen teams not flip the switch. I just think these guys have the pieces when they just. trim their rotation. When they trim their rotation, I think they'll be okay. But right now, you know, they're extra guys. They're not okay. And if they lose some of their top end guys, they're not going to be okay either because I don't think they have the same depth that they have in past years in terms of they don't have the defensive players that can come in and make that same impact. So it'll be fascinating to see, but I think that's the other part of it. This team

needs to stay healthy. They don't have, they don't have the defensive players to maintain their defense, even if it improves the playoffs. They need to stay healthy. They can't suffer any short-term injuries. For the first time at forever. That's another wrinkle here too. For the first time of forever, if you go look at the standings page today, it is not Cleveland in number one in the east. It's Boston. What are the chances of Boston hangs on to that? What do you think? How's this even happening? I don't know. Surprising. Very surprising, Chris. Well, the other thing, you know what else is surprising to me, Kevin? That whoever wins this thing, let's say, okay, so Boston is 48 and 26, so that's 74, they got eight games left, right?

Okay, so they got eight games. Let's just say they went six and two, right? What's surprising to me is whoever wins the Eastern Conference is probably going to have 53, 54 wins this year, which that is not something I would have suspected. I, you know, being mid-50s where, because mid-50s, I mean, hell, you know, you know, you. you're going to have at least three of those teams. We're going to be in a circumstance where at least three of the teams from the Western Conference are going to have the better record than whoever wins the East this year. Yeah, that is surprising.

I would have thought, you know, we'd have a 60 team winner. But on the other hand, you know, with the Celtics, you look in recent history, the Bulls weren't helped by being the one seed, the Pacers weren't helped by being the one seed, the Hawks weren't helped by being the one seed. And I don't think the Celtics would be helped either. I mean, home court is great. And the Celtics have an incredible home court advantage at home.

But I still look at recent history, and none of those teams that surpassed the Cavaliers in the standings were exactly helped by having home court throughout the playoffs. So I do think it's definitely a surprise that we're not going to have a 60-win team or even perhaps even a high 50s win team. team, but I don't know if it's going to help the Celtics if they maintain the number one seed. Okay, here's what I'll say. It helps against everybody else except LeBron.

Yes. That's what I'd say, right? Because that son of a bitch goes and wins an Oracle, you know, with the whole thing on the line. You know what I mean? Like, you beat a 70 win team in a game seven on the road. Like, if a game seven on the road was ever going to be as significant as possible, it was the Warriors having a game seven last night in their home arena. And the fact that he overcame that.

Now, but I will say this, this is where it gets very, very tricky. I think the Wizards could beat them. That's a team that could possibly, no, hold on now. And I think you want to stay away from three because they wouldn't, because if that took place, right, that's where it becomes very, very significant. obviously you'd want to play you know what I mean depending on who lands in these spots

you'd love to be the number one seed and be able to have home court throughout if you can but I also think there's a significance there whereas if Cleveland I don't think I think the Wizards could give Cleveland a big big problem I don't know if they could I said I think they could

I think they could I don't think the calves should be crazy heavy favorites over them I wasn't laughing at the Cavaliers possibly falling to the three. I was laughing just at the mere thought of going into the season. If you said the Cavaliers are going to be the three seed, everybody would laugh at you. No, no, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Let me rephrase it. I'm not talking about them falling to three, even though that's in play. I'm talking about in your second round, that's who you'd play. Okay, okay. I see. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so if you're having to play Washington in the next round,

I think that's a series that they could get beat in. The Wizards are good. They're good, man. I mean, we talked about how the Cavaliers trimming the rotation down to eight guys. The Wizards top eight is really good. They have some good talent. Oh, and by the way, this past weekend, they just beat the shit out of them. They dropped 71 on them in the first half.

I mean, seriously, 70. 71 points. There's a lot of those bangers happening against the Cleveland Cavaliers the past couple days. That was the last game the Wizards played. What was that? It was once, they scored 71 in the first half

and 127 in the game. Yeah, 1207 to 115 game. I mean, their top seven or eight is really good, man. And they can beat you in different ways, I think. I like their team in the sense that they're one of those playoff teams where they can take on different personalities. They can play big with Gortat if they want to,

or they can shift their guys down a position and play small. So I think they could force the cavaliers to play the way they want to play, or they can adapt to how the cavaliers are playing. And that's why I think, as you said, it would be competitive. And yeah, that's all I'm saying. Listen, any team with LeBron giving his track record of being in the finals every damn year is going to be the favorite. Don't get me wrong in saying that I think,

that they're going to lose, but this is where I think that having a home court for a game seven becomes extremely significant if you are the Celtics because you might not play the calves. You might not. That's true. We admit, and clearly, even if you're going to have to beat LeBron, you'd still rather have a game seven on your home court, right, than being there. So I'm just saying it doesn't make you, I don't sit there and go, oh, well, if the game seven's in Boston instead of Cleveland, then they'll beat Cleveland.

Like, I don't think that. But if you told me that's the case with, say, the wizard or the raptors, then maybe I do think the game seven could swing it, right? And that that would be rather significant. He's the only one that I don't think home court becomes significant when you're talking about your chances against. The rest of them, I do think it matters. There's a game next Wednesday night. I realize we'll probably talk about this on next Tuesday's podcast, but next Wednesday the Celtics and the Cavaliers will play in Boston.

Each team will have five games remaining, and this could be the game that determines who gets home court. Depending on what happens the rest of this week, next week's game could be what determines everything. And I'll be fascinated. Last time they played in Boston, the guys were all out. There was a bunch of guys out for Cleveland.

And Boston won, and I recall reading the next morning, and forgive me if I'm off on this, but I believe this is so, that LeBron, that was LeBron's first loss in Boston since 2011. And I was like, what the hell? Like, how was that even possible? But it was, like, that's how he just never loses there. and so then because people were trying to make a big deal out of it right but then they were like oh with the calves were hurt whatever but i remember reading the next morning i think it was just love though i think just love was out for that oh is that it is that the only one that was i think it was just kevin love gotcha but i mean 2011 shit man that's like six years ago

it's a long time to not lose a game there you know that that game was interesting too because you know going back to that game with the Celtics. That was one of those games where they showed their ability to play so many different styles as well. I know Jonas Durupko had a really good night. That game played about 20 minutes or 25 minutes or something like that. And Amir Johnson, the guy who started the game barely played at all. So I think with the Cavaliers against the Celtics or the Wizards, both those teams are built to play different styles. And that's huge in the playoffs, man, having that ability to play different styles. And the Raptors added that by adding Sergio Baca and PJ Tucker. Those teams,

really loaded up for potential series either against each other or against the cavaliers. So it'll be super fun to watch come April, May, and June. All right, well, let me see. We talked about the Cavs. We talked about their possible matchups. Put your Celtics head on for a minute, which shouldn't be hard. Just go to your bedroom and get it. Oh, come on.

I'll tell you what. Hey, you'll make fun of me for this. I don't think I own any hats. What? I really don't think I do. I don't wear hats. I've never been a hat guy. Why, do you think they look funny on you?

No, I just, I've just never been a hat guy. Like, when I was a kid, I didn't wear hats unless I was, like, playing baseball. What is that? What is a hat guy? Like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I don't know. Like, some people don't like wearing hats. Some people do like wearing hats.

I've never been a hat person. So I don't, I don't own any NBA hats. I'm going to get you. Or any other hats for that matter. I'm going to buy you a hat. So you're going to buy me a hat and a Rishon Holmes jersey. Would you wear a hat if I bought you a hat? Yeah, I'd wear a Rishon Holmes jersey with a hat that you buy me.

Like it would be the outfit together. I'm so happy that these Philly fans are having something to root on and care about for the rest of the season. Because they've been a must watch. All right. So if you are the Celtics, would you rather play the Wizards of the Raptors? Um, I'd rather play. If I want drama, I want to face the wizards just because of the bad blood those two teams have. But if I want to win the series and have a better chance at winning the series, I'd prefer to face the Raptors.

But both of those are tough matchups, to be fair. But I'd rather face the Raptors. All right, Kevin, I'm going to ask you about your Raptors article. But first, these words. The NBA playoff chase is heating up and Seatgeek is the smartest, easiest way to get tickets to your favorite team's games. With Seat Geek's seamless mobile experience, you can buy and sell tickets with just two taps. Seat Geek helps you find the best seats at the best price is fully guaranteed, and there's nothing like being in a stadium for the biggest plays of the year.

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because your infatuation with blowing up teams drives me insane. You know this drives me insane. And here we go with another Kevin O'Connor at the ringer. Oh, here's another good team we can blow up. Let me write this article about how Maasai Uri should blow up the number four Cs, in the Eastern Conference that's actually having a really good season and has a chance to make a playoff run possibly if they get Lowry back totally healthy.

And here you go. You wrote the article about the Raptors and then instead of allowing Raptors fans to just kick back and enjoy this season, you want to talk about an eye for the future and and then implore that, hey, maybe it's best for your team to go ahead and suck for the next five years. I'm sure that that's being well received. No, that's not what I'm saying, though. I'm not, that's exactly, I mean, people might read it that way, but that's not what I'm saying. It's like, I'm not saying take a Sam Hinky approach and tank for four or five years.

I don't think the team would be built for that anyway. Like, all, you know, I think not to like defend myself, you know, with my idea here, it's like, I just think you look at their team and they can compete. And there's a window this year possibly to not. off the cavaliers as we just talked about. But my thing is sustainability and the way Maasai builds his teams is the back end of that roster is all young and the top end of the roster, Kyle Lari and DeMarre de Rosen and Sergei Baca and PJ Tucker, those guys are all going to be so expensive this summer.

And if they sign all those guys, they lock themselves into that team. The same exact way the cavaliers locked themselves in and they have to get guys like Darren Williams and Andrew Bogot and or spend a first round draft pick on an 35 year old guy and Kyle Corver in order to add to their roster. That's what they're forced to do. That's what the Clippers are forced to do because they're the luxury attacks and they're forced to add those fringe players. The Raptors would have to do the same damn thing if they sign all those guys this summer. And I don't think their core is even on the Clippers or Cavaliers level. So the point is that they might need to make tweaks. I don't think it's as simple as bringing the band back. You can

be a competitive team and you can hang more division banners. And that's fun. This core is incredibly fun. But I think if your aim is really for a championship, it might come after this De Rosen and Lowry error, as sad as it is to say. And it's just a forward thinking, future focused look at the team. That's fine. But all right, so let's say you have to make a choice. I mean, so here, let me just go one by one. First question, would you give Lowry the contract that he is going to be able to command this off season. Absolutely 100%. And the reason why is because, A, I think you should get, I think you should go into this summer with the intentions of trying to improve your team to make a run next season. I think that's what you should do. And I think you should take that team

into the season as well. But there's a high probability that you don't because of the, because of the lack of flexibility your team's going to have. Maybe a young player makes a surprise development. But if it's really the same old same old i think you have to look at that team for the reasons i just stayed in and say well maybe we'd be better off trading kyle lorry to team x for a first round pick maybe we'd be better off flipping deros into the lakers and and ripping off magic johnson maybe we'd be better off taking advantage of this loaded 2017 draft class and the loaded 20th uh the top of the 2018 draft class maybe you'd be better of taking taking advantage of these draft classes that i think might define the next decade of basketball with the prospects sort of coming out. And that's really my

perspective here is that these guys are so good. Kyle Lowry is a superstar, one of the best point guards in the basketball earlier this season, but he's 31 years old, plays an incredibly hard style, and he's only, he's small. And he's had lingering injury issues over the past couple years, and he'd be signing him to a five-year contract. Demar de Rosen, great player, incredibly fun scorer, but still he plays a classic style of play with the mid-range game. Maybe he adds the three, but maybe he doesn't. I just question, I just question their core making sustained playoff runs based on history and based on the fact that they can't add to it. So I do think they should keep them, though, Chris, to answer your question simply, they should keep them.

The big whiff is Carol. That's the big whiff. It is. That's one of the size whiffs in Denver, too. They brought, they had Carol and Denver, and then they, they waved them. No, but I mean, he blew it by signing him. He did. Like, that has just not panned out. It just hasn't. He got that huge deal after he left Atlanta. He had the awesome season in Atlanta.

And it's just not the best fit next to Carole next to DeRosen and Lowry. And it's, I don't know. Is it fit as much as its injuries, though? Huh? Is it fit as much as its injuries, though? I mean, that knee injury is really limited in. I don't know if it's fit. as much as the guys just

There's no question. Unfortunate injuries. But if you watch them, there is a lot of standing around for Damare Carroll. That is a perimeter-based team. You know what I'm saying? And so I'm just saying you don't have to. I think two-fold. All right, you do need to give him a little bit of leeway because of the injuries, okay?

But I also think that even without the injuries, that maybe that he's not the best type of fit next to those two guys. And certainly I don't think that you need to spend the money on that position when you've got those two guys. That's what I'd say. Right? Because they're going to. They're carrying a word. On Carol, if I told you two years ago, which I wouldn't have said this, but if I had told you two years ago, the Hawks should blow it up when they have a 60 win team.

And they're the one seat in the east. If I said they should blow it up before Horford hits free agency, before Carol hits free agency, before Corver's 35 years old, before Jeff Teak hits free agency, and before Paul Millsap hits free agency this summer. If I told you that two years ago, I think the reaction would have been exactly the same as it would be today with the Raptors of the team they're having. And that Hawks team was better than this Raptors team.

I think they were different styles of play, but I think they were a better team within their season. I think maybe me and you were getting a little bit sidetracked on the whole, what is blowing up? Because you could say like, okay, they should have blown it up. up if you're the hawks the hawks are the five seed right now you know what i'm saying like what if what if that's what the raptors are and what if that's what the raptors are for the next two three years just four five seed never never really a true contender just i mean it's fun and

it's exciting but don't you want don't you want your team to be that team that everybody is really aiming to be to be the team that is at the top of the conference because you know the raptors and the celtics and the wizards i just think there's different i just think there's There's different ways to go about that. There's just different ways to go about it. And obviously, you look at the way teams are built because, you know, the best case scenario is that you get the number one pick and the number one pick available is Anthony Davis, right? And look, they haven't done squat with him in his first five, six years in the league. And all I'm saying is there's different ways to go about it.

I sat in an arena one night and watched Zach Randolph drop 17 points in a fourth quarter. against the Spurs team that had won 60 games and they just, and, and, and as an eight seed, knocked off a one seed. That was in 2011, right? The next day, everybody in the free world wrote the death certificate for the Spurs. Everybody. It's over. The time has passed. The Duncan Genobley Parker thing, it's over now. Like, that was it. All right. It was cool. regular season was great, 160 games, but it's over. They got to break it up.

They got to bust it up. That's what everybody wrote. Everybody said that. People live in the moment way too much sometimes. I'm just saying, but then they made the one amazing trade and they nailed a superstar, right? They nailed it. And I know that it is as rare as rare it can be

to be able to trade George Hill to get a draft pick and him turned out to be one of the best five players in the world, but they did. And that's how they were able to reinvent themselves, right, on the fly without turning crappy. You also saw it with Houston. They had those teams that kind of battled along with Lowry and our test and those teams. They never bottomed out.

They never got terrible. And then they were able to mix and match until they were able to, because the whole McGrady Yao Ming thing got totally derailed by injury. And then they tried to reinvent it with Hardin and Howard, and now they've reinvented it again on the fly. All the while, never being a horrible team. So when you say to me, when you talk about blowing it up, the first thing that runs through my head is being horrible. That you are blowing it up with the inference that because you need to be able to get a super high draft pick. And I think the risk is so great in that because then you really have to nail it.

And I'll just say there are different ways to go about it without totally turning your franchise into one where 41 nights a year, your stadium becomes a morgue. And then you just got to nail it. I mean, again, and it's partly because I sat through it, Kevin. It's awful. I went to a draft party. When I threw a draft party, ESPN was there, there's thousands of people, right? It's the Odin and it's the Odin Durant draft. Okay, team had won 20-something games.

There's thousands of people there. And the lottery starts to come, that lottery night, right? And then it pops up, and it's the Grizzlies get the fourth pick overall. Now, that pick in retrospect turned out to be Mike Conley, right? But you didn't get Odin and you didn't get Durant. You didn't get the thing that was going to change your franchise. And then another year, I threw another draft party. And it came up the number two pick in the draft.

and obviously they blew it by taking Hashim Thabit, right? Oh, man. Maybe that's why I'm gun-shy, because the franchise in which I have been around, they did suck and then they blew it over and over again because they just didn't, they either didn't get the right pick or they didn't get the right guy.

And so I am, I'm very, very timid about encouraging people to blow it up because that's the other side of it and it's awful. Okay, so you said a lot of it. lot of interesting things there, Chris, that I want to respond to. I'll kind of like work backwards. So I think, you know, that's one of the main things that I've read from Raptors fans on Reddit and Real GM is like, the response is you don't get it. This franchise has been horrific for 20 years and we are in the best era of Raptors basketball right now. And that's 100% true. This team is incredibly fun.

The past three years have been exhilarating. I've really loved watching the Raptors and they're, I bet their arena be. being in that building is really special. But my thing is, again, it's about sustainability and how can you build this team that can make that extra leap to the next level and sustain it for an extended period of time? So to relate to the draft classes, you're right. Blowing it up absolutely has its risks. It definitely does because of the fact that there's no guarantees with the draft.

My thing is this, though, is I think the top of these drafts are going to be potentially very special. and with the right trade, I don't think it's, I think blowing it up might be a little bit extreme in the sense that it's more of a tweak because you mentioned that that New Orleans roster. They got Anthony Davis and they were terrible. But what else do they have on the back end of their roster? I think this Raptor's team because of the way Maasai has built it and structured it, they have young talent that could be ready to elevate into a role. I don't think they have superstars waiting on their bench and that's what they need and that's their, the thing we need to touch on with the Kawhi Leonard thing you mentioned. I don't think any of them have superstar potential, but a lot of them have potential to be

good players, to be contributors. Some of those guys are going to become expensive soon. Baby is going to become a free agent. Norman Powell is going to become a free agent next summer. Those guys are going to cost money soon. But I think they have talent that can rise up and allow the team to still be competitive, maybe be an eight-seed type of team, not the four or five, not the three-four, but I still think they have the ability to be competitive.

And that's the other part here. With Kauai Leonard, the way the Spurs tweaked, they traded the guy who was supposed to be maybe the successor to Tony Parker. They traded George Hill and I think another draft pick for Kauai Leonard. And that worked out for them, obviously. And there's a chance. This is where, like I said, I think the Raptors should go into the summer with the full intentions of looking to improve their team. And the main way to do that when you're strapped for salary cap space is through the draft because prospects are cheap. and they can be in their good investments.

That's the flaw with what the Cavaliers have done. The back end of their roster is all old geysers. The back end of the Raptors roster is all young guys that have upside. So the Raptors, if I'm them, I'm going into this draft targeting guys in that 10 to 15 range who I think have the chance to become the best player in the draft. Because there's going to be somebody who falls this year who other teams evaluate as more highly than other teams. Maybe you miss and maybe that player doesn't turn into much.

Maybe you get him into camp and you realize on day one, shit, we took a dud. We shouldn't have traded Norman Powell and the 24th pick for this guy, right? Maybe that's what you end up saying. But I think that's the perspective they need to go in because they need that other guy. And there's really not a road for them to get that player unless it's through the draft. So look, I think this team should continue building through the summer, but they need to have in the back of their minds going to, Going into the 2017-18 season, then going into the 2018 summer, they need to have in their back of their minds that maybe we need to make bigger tweaks to this team to this roster in order to not only have success in the short term, but sustained success in the long term. That's what the Spurs have done more than any other team in basketball, is find a way to sustain success through development on the back end of their roster and the correct tweaks at the top of the roster.

All right, Kevin, you just keep on blowing up teams. You just go around the NBA with your TNT. All right, we got to get to what's happened in the NCAA tournament. I got to witness the NCAA Regional this past weekend that included Kentucky and North Carolina and others that were here. And obviously the end of that Carolina-Katucky game is one that will never forget. But I did see Lonzo and Fox in person alongside Magic Johnson, who, by the way, was in the front row. I saw him at the game. Fox's Friday night performance was just otherworldly.

39 is a hard number to get to when you're not a three-point shooter and you only play two 20-minute halves. That one was incredible. Lanzo didn't have that great of a game. Do you think that the Fox Lonzo game and that particular matchup affects anything draft-wise? So I realize this won't come off as a take that a lot of people will expect after that game. I don't think it changes a lot for people who already have decided how they feel about some of these guys.

So I think there's some guys you'll find in the NBA who don't love Lanzo Ball. I think everybody would agree, for the most part, that he has a lot of talent and that he has the potential to be a really good player. But I don't think that I don't think everybody is totally head over heels in love with him like his dad is. I don't think everybody sees that potential in him. Or if they do see that potential on him, they think there's a low, probability that he reaches it. Whereas with the Aaron Fox, seeing those guys side by side, and this was the fascinating part for me, Fox just looked like the far more dynamic player. So much faster on the offensive end, so much quicker laterally on the defensive end,

his ability to really, I think, change pace is there, and he has the top gear to get to if he needs to get there, his ability to get to the rim and finish with both hands, his ability to create space off the dribble. The only flaw. with him is really his shot and he has a little bit of a thin frame so he might have issues against larger point guards but he has almost everything you look for in a point guard to his NBA he makes those wow plays and he had a hell of a lot of them over the weekend and that was really the disparity between ball and fox for me ball just seemed really bland didn't he I mean he just seemed like more of a bland player in that matchup especially juxtaposed against de Aaron Fox

did you feel the same curse after after coming out of the weekend I was saying when I left that arena Friday night and it still has not left me, I think that if before the weekend, if somebody would have taken Deeran Fox before Lanzo Ball, I would have thought that was insane. And now I would not think, I would not think that's insane at all. That's as simply as I can put it.

I'm with you in the sense that I think, I think that's what that game did. I think it made people realize more than anything, else this year's draft up top, in my opinion, after Markell Fultz, you can order these guys in so many different ways, and you can debate, you can debate all you want with some of them, like who should be ahead of others, but ultimately, every team's evaluation of these guys will depend so much on system, how they want to integrate their players, the traits they care about with point guards, it's going to depend on their independent evaluations of these guys

and their upside and their personalities and how they'll fit into the locker room, how the coaches like them. It'll depend so much on independent and valuation because these players are so closely together in terms of talent level. I mean, you could even make the case for Dennis Smith, who wasn't in the tournament, as a guy who deserves to be in that same conversation. I don't love him, but other people do, right? So everybody feels differently about these dudes. One of the things you said that I think is significant is that the whole seeing them side by side because that does matter. I recall years ago during the Derek Rose draft, I remember some NBA scouts telling me there was one of these pre-draft deals that all the players were at, right?

And it just so happened that Rose and Westbrook were next to each other in the line. And so obviously they were going and they were doing the drills. And everybody sitting there was like, holy crap, Westbrook's like right there athletically with this kid. Because people forget now, right? Rose is a shell of himself athletically. but coming out, Rose was a top 0.1% athlete in the world. Like he was explode everything.

It was just 100% fast twitch. Westbrook's obviously still been able to keep that to this day. But the whole idea was, you know, because Westbrook, it was a little bit of a surprise that he went forth in that draft if you go back in time. His team got slaughtered by the Memphis team, no less, in the NCAA tournament in the final four. And that moment where they're both at the camp and they're side by side and it's like looking at them. And it was almost as if you get this sense that they were almost mirror images of each other athletically. And it just, I mean, of course, everybody was just like, this is insane.

You know what I mean? Like Rose was supposed to be by far and away the best athlete available. And look at this kid from UCLA who's got, you know, he's jumping jump for jump with this kid. So I do think that matters, you know. Oh, yeah, I mean, especially, especially at the most athletic position in basketball, right? Right. You look at most of the top point guards in the league, almost all of them are great athletes or at least, I think, high level in the sense that they have a top end speed or they have the ability to be a leaper. Lonzo ball has leaping ability, but it's more in open space, more so than in traffic. And I think a lot of the best point guards in recent years have that ability to really explode in traffic.

I talked to some of the guys from Kentucky and one of them said they had interviewed John Wall earlier this year about Fox and Wall was quoted as saying that Fox when he gets to the NBA will be in that class of he and Westbrook and those guys they talk about being the fastest players in the NBA

that that's how fast that kid is which he's got the right last name oh he's got the right last name Fox is great for him You know what, man, and I like their locker room crying video. I like that. It's great. You know what I mean?

Like, give me that guy. I'd want that guy. Yeah. He cares. You know what I'm saying? Like, what the fuck is Alonzo doing talking about? Lanzo was like, I felt like his bags were packed in Memphis. You know what I mean?

Like, he literally like the first thing he said was like, hey, it's been fun. I'm done. You know what I mean? Like, all right. I never think Fox did. another thing Fox did after Friday's game when I forget the question he was asked but it was about him it was about his game

the first thing he did was thank his teammates and that's a little thing just a small little gesture but it says a lot about his character that the first thing he does after scoring 39 damn points is thank his teammates for putting him in a position to succeed and and that's little but it's big man

that says a lot about him okay a couple other things really quickly NCAA tournament's been going on It feels like the kid from Oregon, Jordan Bell, if I had to, let's just pick one because I know we're running short on time. I think Jordan Bell has helped his stock the most of any player in this NCAA tournament. I thought his performance against Kansas was insanely memorable. Those kids didn't even want to drive the ball anymore because he was just havoc.

And he grabs rebounds and he's tough and he blocks shots. And I think he was certainly not on the tip of everybody's tongue going in. He kind of reminds me of a guy that if he would have gotten bounced in the first round or maybe even that Rhode Island game, you know, if he's still not playing, then we're not really, you know, he's certainly not being talked about all the time. We don't get that opportunity to see that monster performance in a huge spot. So I kind of walked away from the weekend thinking that the kid from Oregon, Jordan Bell, helped his stock the most.

when it comes to the draft. What about you? Sandarius Thornwell, not only does he have the best name, perhaps, in the entire draft, but his game looks pretty damn good, man. Cendarius Thornwell, a guard slash wing from South Carolina, his ability to score from different levels, ability to grind in the defensive end of the floor.

I think, I tweeted the other day, that Josh Hart from Villanova is ranked like 25 to 40 everywhere. Thornwell's ranked like 60th to 70th, 70th. I don't think the difference is that great. I think those guys are pretty close to equal players, and Thornwell has definitely done quite a lot for his stock, especially moving up into the high second round. That's a great one because he's probably a second round pick, right? And he's one of those guys. I would think so.

Yeah, if he would have gotten knocked out, if he would have gotten bounced in round one, which a lot of people, you know, had them getting bounced in the first round of the tournament. If he gets bounced in that first round, who knows? but he's probably locked himself into being a first round pick now, I'd say, right? And hell, you know, never bank against a team that defends like they do. I really don't know what's going to happen in these tournament games, but that's how Carolina team has been super fun. They got the one real star, and then they just, Frank Martin ain't nothing to mess with, Kevin.

Hey, man. He seems like a really good guy you can rally behind Frank Martin. That's for sure. It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. Thanks to Kevin O'Connor. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we'll talk to you on Thursday. Get your side hustle on.

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