The Ringer NBA Show - Cavs Pod! Why Cleveland Is Our Team of the Season. Plus, a Sit-Down With Jarrett Allen. | Group Chat

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos are here to talk about their team of the season, the Cleveland Cavaliers! They dive deep into the five reasons why this team was such a success. Then they discuss how the team got made, what-ifs, and any trends the Cavs showed that teams will try to replicate. Finally, they hand out some superlatives, including team MVP, best moment of the season, and more. Then they are joined by the Cavs' All-Star center, Jarrett Allen, and he explains what the key to their improvement this season has been, what it’s been like to have Kenny Atkinson as a coach again, and some of his interests outside of basketball as well. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Guest: Jarrett Allen Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to The Ringer MBA show presented by Fandul. Fandul has made it easier than ever to see how your bets are doing without even opening the app. Because now you can get the latest updates and follow along in real time directly from your phone's lock screen or Apple Watch. No login required. Just head to your MyBets page to turn it on. And if you don't already have it, download the Fandual Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. The Ringer is committed to responsible gambling. please visit rg dash help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details.

Must be 21 plus and present in select states gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit rg dash help.com. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Varyer and joining me. Rob Mahoney, Bigwas, no banter up top in this podcast because we have one goal here today. And that is to talk about the Cleveland Cavalier. years. That's right. We are doing for the first time to kick off award season, our team of the season, a new little bit we're going to do every year in order to honor not necessarily the best team of

the season, not necessarily even the most intriguing, but some combination of different criteria, the secret sauce, if you will, in order to come up with one team for one pod. We just spent so much time just in talking news, talking trends, talking games. I don't want to lose. Macro-economics. Honestly, more than you would expect, especially in our pre-show chat. I don't want to miss the forest for the trees.

I don't want to get so lost in every trade rumor that we don't take a moment to zoom out as we do often at the end of the season. We're taking stock of everything. We're looking at playoff races. We're doing our awards voting as we will be next week. But let's take a moment to honor the team of the greatest, I would say overall significance this season,

the thing that stood out to us the most, that's not, as you said, just excellent, but I think represents something a bit larger than that. Yeah, you might be saying to yourself at home, well, what about the Oklahoma City Thunder? They could win 70 games, potentially historic net rating, but it's not about the best.

In fact, I think part of it was is just the surprise of what the cows were this season. In fact, in our preseason power rankings, we collectively, these three analysts, These crack just like critics of NBA basketball ranked the Cavaliers 13 overall in the NBA. Yeah, I think it's mainly about just this sense of discovery about what the Cavs were doing on a week to week, month to month basis, the stuff that they kept going and things that they approved upon and just seeing this team evolved, frankly, from what they had been the previous two years to what they've,

basically become throughout the course of this season has been, to me, the story of the NBA season. And I'm happy that we're highlighting them and giving them their flowers, if you will, today. I don't even think that's a media writerly kind of schick either. I know we kind of overindex sometimes on what is surprising to us, on what comes out of left field, on what catches us off guard. That's, of course, a real thing. And we want to talk about those things as they come up. But the calves changing shape the way that they did without actually.

materially changing their roster that much is a huge NBA story. And it's the kind of NBA story that as we've been talking throughout the season and looking at other teams, it changes the way you look at the leak. It changes the way you talk about team building. It changes the way certainly that the course of this season is played out, which is, in particular in the East, stratified so much into a Celtics and Cavs and everyone else conversation. And with our preseason power rankings as evidence, I did not see that part coming.

I did not think the calves were going to hit that kind of gear in this way. And because they did, I think it forced you to ask a lot of questions about a lot of different teams. And they kind of hit first and then basically were a buzzsaw from the rest of the way. They were good immediately from the jump and they really haven't looked back. So at this point, as we're recording this on Thursday, 61 and 15, the only other 61 team this season most likely going to be the Oklahoma City Thunder, which outside chance for the Celtics. Yeah, that in itself very unusual in these modern times. Like post-Warriors dynasty, this is kind of the first time we've had multiple 60-win teams in the same season.

It was kind of a regularity before that. But as the NBA has reached a bit more of a parity state, oddly enough, the result of that is that you just get a lot of kind of 50-win, high-40-win glut. And not anyone actually hitting the high-achieving marks, even if it is like four or five teams as it has been at some points in NBA history. Yep. also rarity in Cavs history. So only two other teams before this had won 60 or more games, both of them, had LeBron, the most wins, 66 wins, 2008, 2009. I remember those back in the day.

I think it was like first full season I covered the NBA. I was doing the Sunday dime getting ready for those LeBron games where they were wearing like the old school orange and blue jerseys and Yuby Brown. Hell yeah. Was doing the call and all this other stuff. So just to get the particulars out there, though, second in net rating plus 9.8. best offense in the league, eighth defense in the league. We're going to now go through our top five reasons.

And then we're going to get into some team building. We're getting into some superlatives. Jared Allen, as you probably saw in the title of this podcast, is going to join us in the back end to talk about all these different things. Plus, you know, some pop culture stuff because we love to do that. And he loved to do that as well. So that was a lot of fun. But first, top five reasons why the calves this season are a success,

one to five. Rob, do you want to kick us off with your number one? I think it just has to be Kenny Atkinson's effect on the offense. And as an extension of that, these players buying into those ideas. Is there anywhere else we can go with number one other than that? So for me, is Donovan Mitchell buy-in? Yes. To me, everything kind of flows out of that.

It's like one, because Donovan Mitchell, basically the last two years in Utah, the first two years in Cleveland, every single NBA report, report or rumor that you read was that this guy is going to force his way to New York by the time his deal is done. We've been hearing this for four years, okay? The Knicks ultimately end up not trading for him, which, you know, we can get into that at some other point, I'm sure. And the calves end up getting him. And even still, it's like, oh, this guy's not long for Cleveland. This guy's long for a bigger market, blah, blah, blah, blah.

they got this guy to come back. And not only did he come back, he's buying into the Kenny Ackinson part of it. Because this stuff that is impossible if the best player or the most, the player with the most accomplishments, right, on the team doesn't have full buying with this new coach and this new direction.

And to me, that's the number one reason for all of this stuff happening, is getting Donovan Mitchell to resign and thereby just believing in the vision for the future course of the team. team. Yeah. So I have Mitchell in like a pairing with Garland and their synergy later down on my list.

So we can get to that then. But I think the Big Ten item that I think all of us will probably circle around here is just the Atkinson effect. Last year they were 16th on offense with virtually the same personnel made a couple moves on the fringes there. Tid Jerome who we'll talk about was healthy this season. Obviously they got DeAndre Hunter over this trade deadline. But Rob, this is largely the same team with the same core four. And yet they have one of the best offenses in NBA history this year.

And this is why we were so low on them coming into the season relative to what they turned out to be. It was this idea of, okay, if you have more or less the same players, where is the transformation going to come from? How much can a coaching change really do? Yeah, Kenny Adkinson can clean up some stuff around the edges, maybe give them a little bit more flow to their offense. And boy, did he. I think what's amazing about the Cavaliers this year is that where their shots come from is not so different from where it was before. but how they get there feels totally different. It's so much more ball movement involved.

It's so much more actual offensive flow. And as a result of that, not only you're getting better, cleaner shots for better, like better, more advanced players as they've developed year every year. But you're also turning the calves into one of the lowest turnover teams in the league because you're not working out of a slog against a set defense. The defense constantly has to move and revolve to try to keep up with everybody on the floor. And so I almost was expecting there to be a bigger jump in terms of, like the three point rate or something, for example, for the Cavs.

It just hasn't really happened. They still are a really high shooting team in terms of their three point frequency. They maybe get to the rim, honestly, a little bit less than they used to because they don't have to. They're getting such quality shots elsewhere on the floor. But overall, there's just an ethic of ball movement that carries what they want to accomplish. And the fact that you can get that starting with Donovan Mitchell, who, as you said was, his willingness to opt in to what the Cavas are trying to do, commit to the team in the process, while having the kind of season

that ultimately could go down as maybe his lowest points per game scoring season in like seven years is just a remarkable turn of events for both him and the team. Yeah, and the reason why I certainly was low on them, it's not that I didn't believe in Kenny Atkins' sensibility as a coach. It's just I don't know why I was supposed to watch what they did against the magic specifically

in that first round series last year where there were games in the 80s guys. in 2020, in 24, I guess it was last year. And the idea that they would go from that to being one of the two or three best offenses in the NBA just seemed unfathomable to me

without some personnel shakeup, which they didn't have. And so watching them go from what they did against the magic to what they've done over the course of what's about to be 80-something games has just been nothing short of a miracle, to be honest. Yeah, about a month and a half ago, Justin, when they played the match,

magic and wax them by 40, it just felt like such a stark moment in the evolution of those two teams, right? Like one of them is sort of idling in place still trying to figure it out. And the calves, they don't look the same at all despite the fact that it's more or less the same guys. Yeah, and it doesn't feel like the type of leap that the Celtics underwent last year, where they pushed the three point volume so far that it completely warped the way that they play. Now, the calves are shooting way more threes. And I think it's funny, like they're shooting over 40 at this point, which last year would have been historic. Sure.

But now they're fourth because as the NBA evolves, as people pick up on some of the trends with the Celtics, 41.2.3s a game just seems like a normal NBA game. But I think you hit it there. The fact that they married that with a lack of turnovers just speaks to how crisp things is moving. I think it really also speaks to how smart all of the players that they have and rely on because you have a lot of good willing ball movers. I think was hit it with Mitchell, like the fact that he kind of bought in and is now one of those guys. There's just so much flow and optionality.

I go back to the story Jared Weiss wrote in The Athletic earlier this season, which if you listen to this podcast, I recommend that you check it out. Definitely. It just feels like Kenny Ackison tapped into the fact that these guys can play within a flow that also highlights like their, but it's not the Warriors brand of Ball Five, finds like energy because that team was actually a high turnover team. This is actually just something that really just unlocks the crispness and the

efficiency that they all have kind of baked into how they play. Well, I think it speaks to the players involved too, right? The calves for better or worse don't have the Steph level of daring, right? Like they have guys who will take shots, who will take risks, but Steph walks a line that kind of no other player in the history of the game has been able to walk in the way that he does. Most of the guys on the Caz are much more pragmatic than that. Like Darius Garland is a really creative passer, but he's not the most adventurous passer in the world. He just has good vision and good instincts and knows how to play and flow and has been

just really remarkable for them this season. And watching him kind of put his game back together after his struggles last year has been a huge part of this formula too. But Mitchell's a part of this too, like a very utilitarian kind of playmaker. Drive, draw the double, make the simple play. And he's had to evolve into making more complex reads out of that sort of action. But ultimately, they want to do the simple stuff. They want to make the simple pass out to three, let that guy either take the shot or make the swing with a quick decision. And overall, that's a formula that just works.

that just has like infinitely replicable results, especially in a regular season context. Since we're talking about Mitchell and Garland, let's go to my number three, because I have the synergy specifically between Mitchell and Garland. Obviously, we just talked about Mitchell and Garland separately and how they're both in their own ways pretty dynamic, but last year and in years prior,

just seemed like they were on two different pages. Just seemed like they were almost in two different bands, both successful, but there just something wasn't right to that point, plus 4.4 net rating between the two of them last year, this year, plus 10.4 when they're both sharing the court together. And I think the big thing is the fact that they are staggering, but it isn't as stark as it was last year. Obviously, Garland had the jaw injury that limited his minutes and his games. Also just limited how comfortable he was when he played, clearly. How comfortable was to breathe, I assume.

Mitchell and Garland were the seventh most used pairing amongst Garland's pairing. So he and another player, Mitchell was seven on that list for 39.4 percentage of his minutes this year, thirdmost, up to 50% in the time. So half the time he's sharing the floor with Mitchell, which was last year seemed like you wanted to separate those guys as much as possible. Yeah, it felt like one of their fatal flaws that the back court just didn't play with any level of flow or compliment to one another. And I think it's because the nature of their offense was so. predictable. It's just one of these guys is going to run a high screen and roll. That's the nature of the offense. And guess what? A majority of the time is going to be Mitchell that does it because he's higher on the pecking order. He's number one on a call sheet, if you will, to borrow a different

metaphor from a different industry. And, you know, I think this is why Atkins, and, you know, just to let people in on how I sort of did my right. I'm going to go player first, because in my opinion, players actually have more to do with the winning and the losing than the coaches. So to me, the way that Atkinson has gotten these guys to coalesce around one another is important, right? And, you know, just watching it last year, the sort of your turn, my turn, as Bill would say, the dueling banjos, nature of what they were doing was just nasty to watch. And I think most of it, if I'm being playing about it, was Mitchell's refusal to be a threat when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.

And he's learned to be more complimentary to his guys. Let his gravity actually affect the defense when he's not directly on the ball. To me, that's been the biggest difference in what you're seeing. is Mitchell's willingness to step back and be like, you know what? I don't need to be a 30% usage guy all the freaking time. Right? Like, I can empower my other guys. To me, that's what's let this thing go way up, up, up, and away.

I mean, he can be a good catch and shoot player whenever he wants to be and release some of the responsibility to guys like Garland, two guys like Mobley. And they've thrived with that this season. But I would say more than that, the sort of shared responsibility has put Garland in particular in someone like so many. better positions. He's catching the ball when the defense has already shifted a little bit. He's getting it with an advantage. And for someone like Garland, if you wanted to just play him as a very traditional spam pick and roll point guard, you could do it. And I think he would be successful to a point.

But his size can also be a limiting factor in that kind of role. It asks a lot of him to dig his way out of those crowds over and over and over again. And so how do you make everyone's life easier? You know, you actually move the ball. You actually connect these dots. You put Garland. in a place where not only is he a really good three-point option, but pull up and catch and shoot, but he's getting into the mid-range so much more. And he's looking so much more comfortable with his floater this year than he did last year. And so all the elements of his game, I think, are coming together because of what Mitchell has been willing to release in his. Yeah, Garland kind of gets lost in the shuffle, despite the fact that he has been an absolute efficiency monster. And it does feel

like he plays that he could be on ball, but also swing off ball that they probably thought of when they first swung the trade for Mitchell originally. Yeah. Like that he is almost the skeleton key to unlock that sort of pairing and the dynamism of like the rest of the offense. I also have just loved the way that it almost seems he's, he's pretty mature in the way that he uses his superpower, which is his speed.

Like he's almost using it to set up the defense and he's almost like a play ahead. And then he's already like dumping it off to Allen. You see that all the time. I'm like, this guy is just like the flash out there and not just because he's fast, but he's also seeing ahead into the next play. Yeah. Was, what else is on your list?

So I had Atkinson one. I had Mitchell and Garland three. It sounded like you had Mitchell one. What's number two? Mowgli's ascension into superstardom or knocking on the door of superstardom at times where this guy looks like a top five player in the league when he's completely, when all of his shit is working,

meaning he's dominating defensively, which is just what he does every single night. And then on offense, he's making his three-pointer and he's dominating in the pain and he's like crashing the offensive boards. And it's just like, wow, like these setting guys up with the past, like when all of his stuff comes together, he's a top five player in the NBA.

Now, he hasn't got to the point where he's doing as consistently as guys like Tatum and Yokic and Shay are. Like these guys do it every single day. Yeah. Right. He's not doing that yet, but when he does, when he brings it, he's close to that level. When you accumulate his impact, right? And so for me, it's the Mobley leap that all of this nice stuff that's happening on offense, more ball movement, more egalitarian, less predictable.

It's cute. But if Mobley's not a guy, it doesn't really matter. Yeah. And if you don't have, because ultimately, The way Mitchell and Garland are trying to get their buck, it's a pretty duplicative, right? You need another element to how you score. And it has to have some size, has to threaten the paint, you know, at times.

And that's what he's providing for them. He's given that offense the balance where it's like whether it's the pressure relief from being a stretch big or being a big man, a big man playing big and dominating in the paint, that balance that he's providing is. you know, it's incalculable, honestly. And to me, that's the number two. It's like this kid is finally, you know,

becoming a fully realized version of himself and to spoil our interview with Jared Allen. When I'm like, yo, what's the difference this year? The first thing he says is Evan. Yeah. It's Evan. The difference this year is Evan Mobley. It's not even necessarily there

in like the box score production in a way that would register with the actual on-court impact. Like, that's commensurate with what he's actually doing. because you're right, Waz. You can't run this style that the Cavs are trying to play without more, like, I would say, utility and playmaking than they had last year. Like, Donovan Mitchell, yes, maybe he was kind of like insisting upon himself

last season in a way because of his stardoms, because of the kind of creator he was. I wouldn't say Garland was playing well enough to justify a dramatic reimagining of the offense at that point in time, not to say anything about his talent or who he can be or who he's been. and Mowgli too was not doing the things with the ball last season that he is this season. And so having a big who can open up so many elements of your offense,

whether that's attacking mismatches, whether that's making plays from the middle of the floor, as you said, stretching as a shooter as well, that's what's really cleared the way for the Cavs to become the Cavs. It's sort of like forces, forces finally meeting finesse with Evan Mowbly. And all of those elements of his game are coming together offensively in a way that makes him a more complete player and makes the Cavs a more complete team.

Yeah, I was pretty startled when I looked up Mobley's stats just before this pod. And he's only averaging three assists a game. Because if you were to ask me without looking at it, I would have said like five or six. Yeah. Because he's just a conductor of good offense. And it just almost feels like we need like an ensemble award, basically like they have for the sag. Because it just feels like all these guys collectively are so good, such good playmakers and playing off of each other and making plays just almost as a collective. The popular thing to say about Mobley going into this season,

he would need to be able to shoot threes in order to unlock this team and unlock kind of some of the best attributes of his game. Then the popular thing about him became he doesn't actually have to shoot threes because he's doing all this other stuff. I think the most correct answer is that he's just doing all of it because not only is he canning 37% of his threes on like decent volume three game. That's like no, it's double what he was last year. It's like it's a good amount in order to unlock everything else that he's doing because he's also facing up. and also playing with power. Just the force that he's just nailing guys with, particularly in his face-up moves in order to get to the basket,

has been unbelievable. So it's almost like it's not that he was adding one thing to his game in the way that veteran players had. Like LeBron is like, oh, he very consciously became a good defender this time. And then like he became a good shooter at this point of his career. Like it almost feels like Mowgli did everything all at once. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, but and what folks got to understand, it's like, well, it's not reflected in the box score. It's, it's reflected in the freaking offensive rating. Defenses have to play the calves more honestly because of all the threats that this guy presents. So, you know, when you're playing against a big who you know is no threat to pass, you can be more aggressive when you send help. You can, like, you can cheat when you know what the end result. of his decision making is going to be. When you have no idea, and the option is take a three,

face up and take you off the dribble, you know, make a beautiful pass, make a beautiful read, you know, set a screen, pop out. Like, you don't know what this guy's going to do and so defenses have to be, they have to second guess themselves. And guess what?

That's going to open up the floor for everybody around him. And I think that's what's been the biggest difference, right? I think about somebody like Draymond Green where, you know, because he couldn't shoot worth his life, like a lot of times defenses would be like, you know, we're just going to sag off a Draymond and that'll be that. And then Drayman was like, you know what you're not going to do? Sag off for me because I'm just going to screen for one of my ace shooters at the perimeter. And you're going to be all the way at the rim of, you know, not being able to show or hedge or blitz. Right.

Like there's ways that you got to get around what the defense is trying to do to your offense. And the best players will figure out how to make the defense play them more honestly. And Mowgli's doing that in like five, six, seven different ways this year. And just so much more. And just so the people that's listening to this at home, Rob Mahoney can't take the freaking smile off of his face. Talking about his son, Evan Mowgli. He's a proud father today. You know what?

You know what's, I'm not taking that. stepping away from any proud Papa comparisons. But what's better than having to talk about Evan Mobley myself is Donovan Mitchling this thing and I'm going to step back and let you guys talk about him, ultimately much more rewarding for me. This is going to

sound overly hyperbolic but I do think the leap that he's making has a chance to change the shape of the NBA for like the next couple years. That is how big of a development it is. And he still seems like he has another ceiling because he's only like really scoring like 20 points a game. Like there's very clearly like a 27 points per game.

Yeah. Like five assists like nine rebound season. Like this guy's going to be in the MVP conversation very quickly. But this is why the calves were so surprising. This is why this is a season of such incredible significance, right? It is we've gone from a team that looked like it was facing a roadblock trying to figure out how to make all of its best players, how to put all of its best players in good positions to now they all just fit together and work together and they make sense together.

and they do in part because Mobley ceiling is so high and feels honestly higher than it's ever been, even from the moment he was drafted where he was lauded as a future star in this league, it's one thing to think that and it's another thing to see how it might come together. And he's really showing us every night. So I have Atkinson 1, Mobley 2, Mitchell Garland 3.

Rob, do you have anything else within that top 3 or you want to go to your number 4? That's basically my number 3. My number 4 is they have real depth for the first time in the history of this core. And so there's the depth part of that conversation just in terms of the sheer number of good players who were contributing to the team this season.

And then there's the flexibility that is now coming from that depth. And when you have a team that is two small guards and two bigs, you really need that flexibility. Yeah, that was my same thing. Basically, the fact that they had juice outside of the big three. Even before, Karis Leverk, before he got traded, was doing great work for them. them, you know, to start the season.

Obviously, Ty Jerome, New York City guy, black guy, apparently, doing great work for these guys, six man of the year candidate, just an incredible confidence, you know, sort of carry a bench unit kind of guy. Like, these are things that they just didn't possess in previous iterations of the team. And I think that's been the biggest factors, like, outside of what Mobley, or the big four, I should say, because Jared Allen has been a consistent contributor for them. Outside of the big four, they basically could count on nothing from anybody in big moments. And that's been so different this year, such a departure.

Yeah, I basically have these two things in concert for four and five. I will take the tie Jerome piece first because that's who I have at number four. Because his emergence from journeyman, like guard that every smart team was thinking about, right? He was in Oklahoma City and they're like, oh, like, we just can't fit you in. We got nine point guards here. We got meat just like chomping at the bitch just trying to get minutes here. We can't send you to the blue. So we're just going to get rid of you.

The fact that he has just become one of the best backup point cards in the league is just stunning because then it gives them this nice three guard rotation where they're able to rest Mitchell. They're able to rest Garland. You could play him with virtually any of them. And then Jerome is just kind of becoming a factor in his own right. I think Rob, you mentioned a sixth man in the year. candidate, but one of the best floaters in the game right now, just like unstoppable. And also

one of the best pick and roll ball handers in the league. This is the team that runs the most pick and rolls in the entire NBA. And on top of that, I believe Jerome running the pick and roll is one of the most efficient plays in the NBA this season, not just like for the calves. Yeah. In the entire NBA, Jerome running it is one of the best plays you could run in basketball. I mean, this is the thing is, yeah, it's not just he's a great sub. Like, he's just, one of the most dynamic players on one of the best teams in the league. Like, full stop. That's,

that's where Ty Drum's career has now taken him. And so it's, it's recontextualized who he can be and ultimately, like how he contributes on the floor. But you watch him, he's so resourceful. He's such a ballsy score. Like,

he's, he's finding ways and finding avenues to, to carry lineups that otherwise might have difficulty scoring, right? Like, he is the engine of so many different groups for the Cavs. And is, as you alluded to, Justin,

like, a mechanism of relief for the guys who are otherwise having to do a lot of heavy lifting for this team. And so you have Ty Jerome. You have DeAndre Hunter at the trade deadline who was. I'm glad you shouted out Karis Leverk. I think Leverts's buy-in with this team, which I would say stylistically may have been as dramatic as anybody out there. A catch and hold kind of guy who did not play that way. He's a bow pounder.

Yes. He wants to pound and he did his part. And it's unfortunate that he didn't get to see it through. But DeAndre Hunter. the t-shirt, ball pounder. Geras Levert. Wants to pound. DeAndre Hunter opens up something completely different

in terms of his size and length and the role he plays with the team. That's obviously crucial. Max Struce, just a constant threat who knows how to play in this style. And part of the reason, Justin, as you were saying, that Evan Mowgli's assist are a little lower than you might expect, is because he's kicking out to guys like Struz, who then drive and kick or Alan is sharing in some of the responsibility of that, like, that playmaking within the center of that.

the offense. So many guys are getting assists on the board. And and Struz is a huge part of that too. Dean Wade is the kind of player who last year when he got hurt was a massive, massive deal. Because the Cavs did not have the means to replace him. Now he's almost been... He's an eclipsed. He's been

really eclipsed by DeAndre Hunter in particular in terms of his use to this team. But a good guy just waiting in the wings. Speaking of waiting in the wings, Isaac Okoro, just waiting in the left corner to knock down any shot. You can give him really high energy defender even still. Sam Merrill I like and I think helps with some of these weird in between lineups that Cleveland

gets by with, especially in the regular season. I even think that Craig Porter Jr. is turning into a real player. I'm not saying he's going to be an impact guy in the playoffs. But going forward, I would not be shocked if Craig Porter Jr. It's just a rotation guy for the Cavs or otherwise. Yeah, let me throw the needle on these two ideas because I do think Jerome's emergence allowed them to go out and make the trade for Hunter. I do think they had wing options, which in years past,

they weren't even at that point. The fact that, like, they lived and died by Dean Wade being able to hit shot, Merrill hitting shots just seemed like they were on a razor's edge, especially if those guys were going to get hurt. Jerome emerges. You were able to trade Lavert and Nying, who is just a helpful-ass player wherever he goes, in order to make that upgrade in order to get Hunter. And now you are too deep.

And guys who I think are playoff ready wings who you know can hit a shot. And then with Hunter, we'll probably talk about this a little later on. Like, he's the guy you need in order to go. guard the best players on the other team, especially if Boston's going to be your main obstacle to get there. Deoretically. Right. So they basically, they had this depth with they, with a manufacturer just by making like sharp

reeds on the fringes. And this is why I'm always wants to give credit to teams and just talk about nailing second round picks, finding guys off the scrap heap, because those things compound to the point where you can get to to hear where you trade a Levert in order to upgrade, not a weakness, but something that you definitely needed to shore up in order to be as serious as possible in the point. playoffs with Hunter. Well, what do we have left? We've talked through the depth. We've talked through the stars. Justin, what do you have a number five? Well, I had just had that credible wing options. Got you. They have Hunter and Struz. Akoro isn't shooting well of late, but the

on-off stuff is still very good from because he's such a menace defensively. We'll see. He had that injury and he really hasn't shot well since he came back. We'll talk about that a little later as well. But you're right. They're going like three, four deep with wing guys at this point. And so I think it just fits their whole mold where if you're going to ask your four guys to do so much, you need those guys to hit shots and those guys are hitting shots. Yeah. I think the only other thing that comes to mind for me as far as my number five

is the health of this team, which is not a virtue in like the team building or even performance sense, although in the training sense, absolutely, and the strength and conditioning sense, absolutely. All four of Cleveland's core guys are going to cross that 65 game threshold this season. I don't know how many teams can really say that. And it's a huge part of why they've been, so dominant, why they've been so consistent, and why ultimately for a team that has had one of those

four out at so many points over the last, of the previous two seasons, like in the Donovan Mitchell era of Cavaliers basketball, they haven't had as much time to coalesce as you might have wanted. And you're seeing it this year, but you're seeing it still in kind of restrained doses, right? They do have all this depth. They're blowing out so many teams. They don't have to stretch this thing to Tibby and levels and run guys into the ground. They can get into the playoffs with all of their their best players intact ready to roll ready to play give or take like a little day or like day to day thing here and there but ultimately like this is a team that has found a way to execute when they don't have one guy in the lineup but ultimately has really benefited from

having one of the healthier seasons of any of the major contenders we've talked about this all season depth matters so much more in the regular season than ever before because you could no longer as we did 10 years ago at this point, just build a big three and just be like, eh, we are so talented. We will just overwhelm teams in the regular season. You not only need a big three or a big four in the case of the calves. You need the depth in order to slog through an 82 game regular season and be at the top of the standings in order to have home court.

It's just like the divide has never been bigger between the teams with star power and depth and the teams with just star power. Look at the Phoenix Suns. Look at the nuggets who should be. one of the best teams in the NBA. They just don't have enough credible guys at the point where Yogic has to have a 60 point triple double in order to contend with a two overtime game

and they still lose because of Russ. That's a whole other stuff. Genuinely heartbreaking to watch. Very tough. Anything else we need to mention or should we go to the team building section? I think we're good. Yeah, we cover it. Okay. All right. How did this team get made?

So just a breeze through it. We have Garland, Okoro, O'Coro, Merrill got drafted. They traded for Jared Allen, Donovan Mitchell, DeAndre Hunter, and they signed Dean Wade, Shrews, Tide Jerome, Border, and Thompson. Rob, as you're looking at the board here, if you're looking at just like how this team got put together, what jumps out to you? This is the small market model, which is draft very well,

and pick your spots very wisely and very carefully. Like you need to wait for a star like Donovan Mitchell to come available. You also need to be pretty sure that he's the right star. And I think there's the combination of this thing, of the right kind of opportunism for the Cavs, obviously drafting and having Mobily be on the board when it was their time to select as a huge churn of events.

But then when they get these guys in house, they did something that's kind of radical in today's MBA, which is give them actual time. Give them time to sort this thing out and to figure out who they can be to each other. And understand that when you run into a roadblock, it doesn't have to be the end of the line. It does not have to be the point of detonation.

You can make a coaching change. You can trade for someone like, say, a DeAndre Hunter level deal and dramatically shift how the team feels at the end of the day. And the fact that they were able to encounter the difficulties that they have as a team, to fight through some of the adversity, to battle through some playoff losses and some tough series. And that everyone now, like the overall, the level of internal enthusiasm is so high, I think is a real feat. And that's sort of, I think, where the Cavs have thrived this season is based off that energy of giving these guys a renewable sense of, of we're doing something here that works, that's sustainable, that you can be a part of,

and that you can believe in. Yeah, I think for me, what sticks out the most is that they drafted, they brought in two All-Stars via the NBA draft. And these picks were their own picks. Everything flows out of that. Even, and I've said this a bunch of times, O KC looks at, oh, they're the model of a rebuild.

No, they're not. they traded Paul George, okay, who at the very peak of his powers once finished third in MVP voting for a guy who finished second last year already and is about to win the MVP. That never happens. And that's why they're at the cusp

of being in championship contention. It's not because it's Shet. It's not because it J-dub who they actually drafted. It's because of this dude that they fell into. Okay, they actually traded for. an MVP candidate. What the Cavs have done is more in line with what teams think they're trying to do

in a rebuild. Meaning we're drafting two bona fide all-stars. We drafted Garland and Mobley and in between Akoro. Nobody's... Not on the level of those two guys, but a good player. A good player, right?

And everything flows out of that. It's like we drafted two guys that we know are going to be perennial all-star threats and now we're not afraid to take a chance on Donovan Mitchell and like throw these kids into the deep end. And to me, that's what's the most important about this. It's like they didn't trade for some young guy

or they didn't, you know, some disgrunt to where they had to give up pieces or, you know, they had to carve out some crazy amount of cap space or whatever. They drafted these kids. And now on rookie deals, these guys are plus NBA players and they could go out and try to figure out some stuff around it before the extensions kick in and all this other stuff. And to me, that's what, you know,

that's the core of what makes this team what it is, is that they drafted these two guys with their own picks. And now, you know, they're on their way to being like a perennial contender. Yeah. Yeah. I think the Thunder have done a pretty good job. I'm just going to point that out there. It's not that they didn't do a good job.

You can't count on that. Yes. The number of teams that have traded for. You can't plan for that. Yeah. They clearly identified and believed in Shea, but the number of teams who have traded for a player like Shea at that point in his career are exceedingly few. One of them may be the Lakers. Yeah.

I think two things that jump out to me are one, that the Mitchell trade just worked. Like the fact that like that wasn't, there was no downside to that in the long term. And in fact, like I think at the time, both Mitchell and Gobert were traded for similar packages. And those both just kind of worked. You know, those guys stayed there. That's a big factor in it. And that's something that the teams that traded them had to worry about, Utah, with Mitchell in particular. But there was no penalty for making that big old swing in the same way that, like, for instance, the Spurs and the Hawks, like the Dejante Murray one looks very bad for the Hawks.

And they're still going to be recovering that from a while. The second one is the Allen trade, which I think gets lost in the shuffle. But that's like a classic case of just like stacking good decisions. and where the James Harden trade happens, and it just doesn't seem like the Rockets want to keep Levert or Allen because they just want to be as bad as humanly possible in order to tank. And it has worked out for them,

but there was a lot of luck involved in that, the fact that they've always managed to get the picks in order to get the guys in order to stack all those draft picks. But with Allen, it was just like, oh, we don't really have to pay much. It was Exum and a buck's future first that ended up being Marjohn Bochamp, which, L.O.L.

they just like, we're like, we'll just take this good guy and we'll just figure it out later. When they traded for Allen, when they just brought him in, they had Sexton Garland, because RIP, the Sexland backcourt that we never ultimately got, Akuro, Nance Drummond. They had no reason just trading for a potential All-Star Center, but they're just like, eh, let's just get him. Why wouldn't you? Yeah. It's still, I get where the rockets were coming from in a certain sense, but there's a

threshold of player that's just too good to not want because you don't want to be better than you are now. And I think Jared Allen is above that threshold. He's not a perfect center. He's not an infallible player, but an impact guy on both sides of the floor, a big time rebounder, a big time defender, can catch in the middle and make plays, can finish. Like, why are you looking at a guy like that sideways if you're the Houston Rockets, even in the post-James Hardin era? Why are you looking at that sideways if you're the Brooklyn Nets? I think is also the bigger question. We know the answer to that one, unfortunately. Lord have mercy.

Okay. What about what ifs though with this team? There's a lot of crossroads that got us to this point. Watts, for you, is there one decision that sticks out like, oh, if this went differently, this would be a completely different situation. It's got to be Leon Rose and then passing up on Donovan Mitchell. And at the time, I thought they did the right thing. And looking back, I still think they did the right thing.

It's one of those things where the team that you're trading for, It's not like, oh, Donovan Mitchell has a set value. It's like, no, because you have X, Y, and Z available, this is what I want from you in order to get Donovan Mitchell. The Knicks were looking at it like, if they would have allowed us to give them the same package that the Cavs offered, we would have Donovan Mitchell, but they didn't. They wanted, they expected us to give up the entire farm,

whereas with Cleveland, it was just like, all right, cool, give it up. And then, of course, the Knicks didn't have. the luxury of already again in-house possessing two kids that they could credibly look at and be like, yo, these are two future all-stars. Right? Which the Cavs already felt like that when they made

the Mitchell trade. And in fact, I think the Mitchell trade was a double down on that truth. Was like, not only have we heard the New York whispers, we believe in our kids so much that Donovan Mitchell is going to love being here with these guys. We're about to build something fantastic.

So not only is the price justified, we're going to keep this guy and he's going to be happy with what we have here in the Knicks, they could not make that same argument to themselves. And so to me, that's the like, the biggest like, what if it's like, what if the Nix were the Nix of the past and said, let's send

a farm for Donovan Mitchell while having absolutely nothing around him at all to speak of right now? And that thing would have flamed out horribly by now. We know that already. Yeah, there are a lot of like tentacles off of that too, where it's like, what if

the Mavs just signed Jalen Brunson to the bargain deal that was on the table. Also, what if they didn't include Lori Markinen in the deal that they ultimately made with the jazz? Like, they're just such different permutations of that. Like, what if they just didn't make the Donovan Mitchell trade at all? And all of a sudden, it is what their current team is with Allen Mobley, Markinen Garland, and then just use your picks to go out and get a different backcourt mate with Garland in there. I think they would still be a good team. I think it speaks to that the guts of this team. Like there was something here.

It just took one extra move in order to push them over the top. Yeah. I think, look, with any great team, there are these moments of decisions you make or don't make. And I think the ones that are most compelling for me with the Cavs are the ones that were out of their hands. It is the Knicks with Mitchell. It is the 2021 draft. And what happens if the Rockets take Evan Mobley?

Because if they do, I don't even know that the Cavs would have taken Jalen Green, but maybe they would, like, they either. You want to redraft that draft again? I mean, it's a new week. We just do this all the time. But the thought exercise of a team that already does have Sexton and Garland, would they take another guard? Or would they swing and I would presume miss on a Jonathan Cumminga?

Would they take a chance on someone like Josh Giddy? Or would they have swung to a different kind of guard and gone like Jalen Suggs or somebody like that who's a really good player? And I think it would be an awesome bit with Garland, but has been hurt for the majority, like a vast... Yeah. A significant part of his impact. NBA career so far.

So Scotty Barnes is something. Absolutely. I just think getting mobily at the time and position they did change the course of the team, period. Yes. Yeah, I think the draft ones are pretty fascinating because you also have the Garland one because and I remember thinking this at the time that the Pelicans who got the Lakers number four pick in the Anthony Davis trade, they traded down in order to pick up eventually

to kill Alexander Walker, Jackson Hayes, rather than just. staying at four and just taking Garland, just taking the best player available. And I have to wonder, like, maybe they saw a vision where Zion would be handling the ball more. And they're like, obviously Garland presents defensive issues, but like, just take the best player. And then the Cavs just wouldn't have been in the situation. Garland was kind of a controversial prospect, if I remember correctly. Yes, because he didn't play a lot. Yeah.

Yeah, he's small. So obviously, you need to see something in him, but the Cavs did. quote unquote reach to to take him at number five. Like the tape that he put out at Vanderbilt was really good. Like he was good when he played. But it was just like, yeah, you know, Vanderbilt, like barely played. Like, what are we doing? Top five.

This seems like a lot. You know, doesn't have the physical profile. Like, is the three-point shot going to train? There was a lot of like, you know, hate to be honest. Well, definite believers, but a really wide. range of opinion on who Darius Garland was going to be as a pro. I think they should have taken them.

I mean, I'm not disagree. I mean, I agree. Should the Pelicans have drafted player X instead of whoever they took? A tale is old this time. Hindsight is always 50-50. Well, I thought, I don't think. My hindsight was 100%

because I thought it at the fucking time is what I'm saying. Any trends from this? We love talking big picture trends here. Is there anything that like based on the Cavs success? teams are going to start to replicate. Rob, anything that jumps out to you? I would hope it helps teams lean a little more into their continuity.

I know that's difficult with the roster constructions and the contract lengths of the NBA today. You don't always get to dictate terms on wanting to keep the core of your team together for three or four years. But I really do hope it gives teams particularly small and mid-market teams, an avenue to think,

if we just do these things around the edges or we just change something about our core philosophy of play, rather than who is participating in it, that there's room for us and there's an avenue for us to really improve. And I don't know that I would have believed it if you told me that about the Cavs a year ago at this time. But we've seen it and we've seen how dramatically it can shift the fortunes, not just of the Cavs, but of everyone else who's competing with them in the Eastern Conference. And so on a certain level, it's kind of inarguable.

For me, what it harkens to is the Rockets, even to a lesser extent, Detroit. When we think we have good young players, let's get good other players around them. Let's not just be like, no, no, no, no. If you have good guys around them, you can't get another ping pong ball. Like, no, like, if you have good young guys, put good players next to them

so that they can grow instead of being a slave to the damn lottery odds. That's what I would hope the trend is, you know, a la what the Cavs did when they said, oh, let's go out and get an all-stop. star in here. Yeah, this group hasn't achieved jack shit, but guess what? We think we get an all star here. We can change

the sort of vision and the trajectory of what this young core is about to try to do instead of being like, no, let's buy our time because that helps with my job security and I can get everybody in the media to say I'm a genius because I'm taking my sweet time with my freaking

rebuild. I love look, this is a common was talking point. And I largely agree with you that there are a lot of people in the NBA working towards their own job security. The thunder, though, like, break the model. The thunder is different. Sam Presti, I stopped taking pot shots at hand.

Honestly, that's growth. That's growth on your part. I appreciate it. I stopped with the Presti slurpage being annoyed by it when he talked Paul George into resigning there. I was like, you know what? There's actually a lot more to this guy than the math, you know, gaming the system.

Like, this dude talked Paul George. who had been telling everybody with an earshot that he wanted to be in L.A. To stay in OKC. I was like, this is a GM who's actually doing all of it. He's like selling ownership on a vision. He's selling the players. He's bringing in good coaches. He's like doing all it.

Like, Presti is to me in his own category, honestly. Well, my kind of big picture trend that I've been tracking, honestly, for the past couple of years here, it kind of goes with what was saying there about just bringing in Mitchell earlier in the process than I think a lot of team. teams would is this idea of the rookie quarterback in the NBA, which I kind of have been talking around a little bit for a couple years now, where in the NFL, when you have a very good rookie quarterback, there's this blueprint where you spend now because the quarterback is so good,

he's going to outperform his rookie scale contract. And now in the NBA, it's a much more difficult situation because how many good rookies are just plus players, just in the rookie year, let alone just like All-Star Calibler in their second year. Mobley wasn't even that. And I think that's why you've seen it take a little bit longer, even with Mitchell in there in order to get going. But the most recent example has honestly been the Deeran Fox deal with Vector Webbenyama. And so it feels like a one percenter sort of thing,

but I think it's something to keep an eye on. I think you could say Minnesota did a similar thing when they traded for Gobert too. Yeah. It's like, you know, Ann Edwards about to be a superstar. Yeah. Let's go out and get our bona fide rim protector, make our team a serious outfit. We really believe in what Ann Edwards can do going forward.

It's a really dangerous line to walk. It is. You have to really- You got to have balls to do it. You got to have balls. You got to really believe in your guy. And these are some bets that have really paid off. Believing in Anthony Edwards,

believing in Evan Mobley and Darius Scarlin. Those are franchise altering levels of confidence, ultimately. You pick the wrong guy and you trade four draft picks to make the early trade, ultimately that could really put your team back. But I think the key is what you're saying, Justin, which is you kind of have to make that move so early, not just based on the confidence,

but before other teams realize how good Evan Mobley is going to be, how good Anthony Edwards already is, right? Like these guys are on the cusp of something. And therefore, if we wait until next season to trade these picks, they're going to be worth 70% of what they're worth now, because teams are already going to know how good our best guys are. Yeah. I think the main difference is that a rookie QB is going to have his hands on the ball every possession,

whereas that if you bring in a Donovan Mitchell type or just anybody who needs the ball, you're taking reps away from your future face of the franchise that obviously is going to need those reps in order to develop. And so it's just a fascinating little wrinkle that I personally have been tracking for a couple of years now. Obviously, it has worked out for the Cavs. I assume it's going to work out for the Spurs. It's working out in a different way with Minnesota. But, you know, when you put Julius Randall next to Anthony Edwards, you know, good things are going to happen. All right.

Let's flip the superlatives now. We're going to do this lightning rod style because typically we have gone over even the bigger estimates that we had going into this podcast. Team MVP, I have Evan Mobley. It's just,

it's Donovan Mitchell, though. Oh, okay. Like, make the case. He's the best player on the team and his willingness to not participate in the way that he likes to participate is crucial in terms of actualizing what the Cavs ultimately were able to be.

Yeah, it's Evan Mobley for me. to pick a guy because he's doing less, the team is doing more. Sorry. Yeah. Give it to the guy. Because he's doing more. The team is doing better. Yeah.

Evan Mowgli's my MVP at a cabs this year. You're not going to make me argue against it. He does more for the team than anybody else. Okay. Best moment of the season was, what do you have? The Boston comeback. Yes. Because it's just like, this is obviously the giant and the demon that they need to slay.

And that they saw them, they actually experienced themselves doing. something regular season, but it matters. So that's for me, it's the Boston comeback. I have the same one. This is the February 28th game against the Celtics. It was 20. I got to here game. The fuck out of your game.

It was 25 to 3 after five minutes. They came back in one. Huge win. Woz nailed it. Like the Celtics match of is so important. And proving that you can not just compete, but win and not just win, but lock up the Celtics offense down the stretch.

I thought was such a crucial part of that game. It's also one of my favorite Donovan Mitchell games of the season, he was just fucking bawling. And he's had so many of these things. Like, we talked so much about his, like, modulating and giving up and sacrificing for their players. He's doing that and delivering in crunch time whenever the calves need him to deliver in crunch time.

He has such a great sense of the moment. I thought he had such great sense of the moment in that game, also proof of concept in that game for DeAndre Hunter as Cleveland Cavaliers in a what we brought you here for since. So a lot to take away, but I think that's the one. I think so to other honorable mentions I have on here. when they win and won 16 games a row. That's a franchise record.

Also, probably the biggest early game of the season when they beat OKC, ending OKC 15 game win streak. That was also a big one. And then most recently, just the other day, Jared Allen trying to do the LeBron breakaway dunk failing and talking about it in the postgame press conference being like, I tried, but it didn't look anything like that while wearing a let him meow t-shirt playing off of the let them know. slogan they have for this season. Obviously, Alan is a cat daddy, but him, yeah. Nothing but respect for my president. Yes.

So. Okay. Just one award. We're aping the Rwatchables category. Basically, one person or player or coach or executive, whatever you want to say gets one award. Who is it for this season? Kenny Atkinson for Coach of the Year. Yep.

That's what I have. Oh, for me, it's Kobe Altman, executive of the year. Really? Yeah, yes. To me, Kobe Alton, like, talking Mitchell into staying, not folding on Garling, being pissed about how season ended. Remember, Rich Paul was telling Shams like, yo, we're trying to get the hell up out of there.

Hiring Atkinson, like, to me, it's Kobe Altman executive of the year. I will say this. We're so much better at understanding the moves that are made for executive the year versus the moves that aren't. And the decision to not blow up this team, while it isn't a. Luca Donchich level acquisition, which I imagine Rob Polenko will probably win executive of the year in the final voting.

He ain't do no executive in? I'm just saying, like, whether it fell into his lap or not, that's a huge move by a team, and he technically was in charge of that move. But choosing not to detonate this team is one of the huge what-ifs about its construction, is one of the big factors that contributed to this kind of success. So Kobe Alman deserves a lot of credit for bringing in guys

like DeAndre Hunter, trusting in guys like Ty Jerome, hiring Kenny Atkinson in the first place, believing that this team could be more than what it showed to be the sum of its parts last time. I have Atkinson as well. The irony, of course, is that J.B. Bicker staff, the coach from last year with the Cavs, he's probably his stiffest competition.

He's a good job. He's a starter pack. He's a starter pack coach. It just speaks to that certain coaches are just good at certain types of things and rearing certain types of rosters. He's like your first girlfriend in college. Just like the first time you're like getting serious, learning how to do like boyfriend kind of stuff. You never forget that one. But you're not going to marry the chick.

You know what I mean? It's like, like, come on. Was, what did your first girlfriend in college teach you about life and yourself? This won't surprise you. I didn't have a girlfriend in college. Okay. So strictly a hypothetical first girlfriend in college. I had a girlfriend in high school, though.

Yeah. Okay. can lock yourself down for those college years. I just didn't meet the one. I just didn't meet the one. That's all. Okay. Most likely podium guy,

the guy who from the bench will be able to swing a playoff game. Can we take Tidram off the board? Like it's guaranteed basically that he will have a podium game or many. I could. Coro is going to get left alone. Yeah. All playoffs long. And there's going to be a game where inevitably he makes a few shots.

and it actually matters. Definitely. I promise you, not a single team is going to guard him all playoffs long. Struz has swung playoff games. He's done this before. He's capable of doing this.

He's not new to this. It's true to this. Just a, okay. Just a beautiful man. I just want to point that out there. Jesus Christ. I almost had a Max Struz award

for the player who most looks like somebody on this podcast, but I figure, look, if you want to give yourself, Ann Macs-Druson award. Who are we to stand in your way? Historical precedent.

This is a difficult one. So which team does this Cavs team remind you of in history? This is going to sound like faint praise or sound like criticism. But it's not. And I think they are a much more fully realized version of the 2015 Hawks in terms of sharing the playmaking load, the way that they build action on action. It's like, what if you took that model and you upped the star factor with Donovan Mitchell, where you upped the playmaking with Darius Garland, where you made them bigger and more explosive

and less, I would say overall less system dependent than that team. But I think it goes to show there really isn't a one-to-one comp for this Cavs team that I could find anywhere in NBA history, especially modern history. It's their style is reminiscent of certain other contenders in recent memory or high-level teams, but who has done this much with this sort of formula? There really aren't that many out there. the Hawks comp is the one you hear a lot. Obviously doesn't foretell good things in the postseason or beyond the season.

But you're right. There's way more juice. Yeah, I think they're going to be more successful than the Hawks were ultimately in a playoff setting. But there's something there that they're building on for sure. I went in the opposite direction of Rob. And to me, I came up with the first Phil Jackson Lakers. Wow. where this is a team that has a bunch of all-star

kind of talent on it, but in the playoffs, looked lost and flamed out. And then, of course, they bring Phil in in and win a championship the next season. Right? Like, they didn't look anything like a championship-worthy team with Del Harris, which, L-O-L, Dell Harris. And then Phil Jackson comes in and immediately,

this is a serious outfit. if they go out and win three straight championships. The calves are not going to do that. But to me, they're closer to that than they are the five All-Stars, five Eastern Conference plate of Bobfogs. I don't mean to inspire the eye rules. I agree to you. This is a real contender in a way that that Hawks team wasn't,

which is why I want to make it very clear. This is a more evolved version of that Hawks idea, more than it is an actual version of them. Yeah, but it is difficult going the opposite way and picking a really successful team because it almost seems like you're overselling this Cavs team. But the combination of two guards and two bigs is actually

really tough to find. The one that I kind of zeroed in on was the 05 spurs just because you have Parker and Manu in the back court and then Duncan and then whichever center they decided to plug and play that year was Naze Muhammad, which is like underselling Jared Allen. But like the fact that like Bowen

was just almost like the cherry on top, but those four, three guys were really the driving force there. At the very least, there's like a rough outline of what the Caz have done.

I'm just having like flashbacks of the Spurs during some of their darker moments, just complete inability to score. And it's like, in some ways,

I hear you on the opposite. Yeah, like they're more defense oriented, but you're right. It is, it is guards and bigs. Yes. All right.

Next one, calling this posterized. We're going to create a Costico's brother style NBA poster, which if you don't know, you can Google that. But they're just like 80s posters. It's like Michael Jordan, like, come fly with me.

And he's like in like a Tron style thing. The mailman Carmelone is a very popular one where he's like rippling with his like shirt coming off. But he's given the mail in a mail slot. I would say there's two genres. Yeah, it's like there's the already established mailman style nickname. And then there is complete nonsense. Those are the only two kinds of Costa brothers posters. I went with complete nonsense.

I mean, as did I. It's just really the way to go with this team. So either Evan Mobley either is wearing a massive Swiss Army knife costume where it's like a wine court. Yeah, coming out the sides. And whatever like this like all kinds of things coming out of them. Yep. Or he's just holding or like juggling a bunch of actual Swiss Army knives.

Okay. I like that. One of the two, but something Swiss Army knife related because of the Swiss Army nature of what he can do out there. I have an Evan Mobley, Jared Allen combo pitch. Text, heavy machinery. I want one of them, both on like a factory floor somewhere. One of them is holding a giant wrench. The other one is doing like working a buzz saw or something.

It doesn't really matter. The important thing is just a truly ridiculous number of sparks flying in the background. as is traditional for these sorts of posters. What's the tag? Heavy machinery. Oh, I like that. Look, we're going blue collar. We're going Rust Belt.

I think that's, this is the way to kind of really sell the Cavs Vision. Heavy machinery. It sounds like a beefcake calendar. Well, I had a secondary pitch. This one also sounds like a beefcake calendar a little bit. The conductor. I've got Donovan Mitchell in a train conductor's uniform, but the sleeves have been ripped off.

And he's just shoveling coal. into a locomotive. Is that what a conductor does? I don't think it matters. It doesn't bother me. But we're giving it up for the conductor. All right. My best one, Jared Allen, the smart guy,

but it's him with Taj Mory back to back. I like that. Wow, obviously, the smart guy from the Disney. He's like 40 now, but like facts. Are you doing also rippling? Are you doing present tense? Or are you in like a Photoshopped child back to back with Jared Allen?

That might get complicated, especially if we want to go into the beefcake territory. Yeah, that's true. All right. Last couple here, NBA Jam team with the best two-man combination. Not necessarily the best two-man combination, but best two-man combination for NBA Jam, which is a little different. Yeah. Easy for me. It's Mobley and Allen.

Really? And that's because Mobley can guard guards. Yes. So the second you are, you're going to put a little guy on there two on two. We're backing your little guy down. and we're pummeling you two on two. That's it. I'm going two bigs

because one of my bigs can guard little guys. I like the way you're thinking and I wish I were as evolved an NBA jam player as you are was. But my style is very simple at the expense of giving up my strategy here on a podcast.

I literally only shoot threes. Just only shoot threes. And so I'm taking Donovan Mitchell as my, I'm just literally going to take every shot with him from beyond the arc, maybe a little give and go action and I'll go mobily

as my defensive anchor dirty work guy inside. You're not getting those threes off against my team. We're beating you up and pushing you on the ground. Yeah. I have the same style as Rob where you just want to jack the threes. But I went Garland with Mobley instead of Mitchell because I do think Garland's the type of player who would have 10 speed and also maybe like nine or 10 threes. And guys who could move are impossible to track down. So Garland Mobley. Playoff tension point. Two more here. So what's the biggest question as we're getting to the postseason with the Cal? There's only one. Can they be Boston at Boston's own game, basically? Can they win playing a style that is so similar against a proven champion? That's, I think, really the only question the Cavs have left. They've shown and answered so many other ones. Yeah, for me, it's can any of their guys do to Boston what Aunt Edwards did to Denver on Tuesday night, which is like...

And in the last year's playoffs, we should say. Yes, completely bend the defense. Completely get them out of their base coverages, completely like shape the will of what they're trying to do because you're so freaking good, so dominant, possession after possession. To me, that's what this is ultimately going to come down to.

Yeah, I think we're all circling the same thing here. I have down, can a team built around two guards and two bigs beat a team built with almost entirely wings? You know, and I do think the wings are the, like, real tension point,

like really the thing that might swing things one way, another where it's like, yes, I think they do have Struz and now Hunter, but the depth is a little shaky after that. Okoro hasn't been hitting shots. Wade, as we mentioned, hasn't been the same guy there. Merrill, I think, is just going to be a bit of a target defensively. And so they really need Hunter in a way that, like, you wouldn't expect. It's not just he's a bonus. He would push them over the top. He's essential personnel who is going to have to guard Jalen Brown and Jason Tim. He's also going to have to show up offensive. He's going to have to hit those shots. So I think Hunter might be the swing guy for the entire Eastern Conference playoffs.

Very well could be. Crystal ball time. Exact game in the exact round that the Cavs season ends. Game six, conference finals to the Celtics. They're done. Yeah. No finals for the Cavs this year.

Maybe, you know, they learned something. Boston's going to have to give up some of their players because their team costs $500 million a year and like Boston becomes weaker. They become stronger. But this year, They're going down in six. Boston is going to advance to the finals. I'm going to second the larger idea, but make it slightly more painful.

Game seven, Eastern Conference finals. I think the Cavs get, oh, my God. I think they get so painfully close. And it's just like, don't quite have it in the way that, you know, like the bloodbath worth Orlando kind of tilted their way last year. Similar situation, anyone's game, a couple balls go a different way. And this one may just not go theirs. I do think though

I agree with what you guys are saying I think if the Celtics aren't fully there if Chris stops has been playing of late all of a sudden he's dealing with those quadriceps in his mouth those those tangles coming out there because he just can't get out there

the quadriceps yeah the corticeps that's the one yeah not the muscle in your leg okay maybe it's both maybe there are those coming out of his quads that would be a problem

yeah be a huge problem. But I do think they have set themselves up to take advantage of something like that if the Celtics aren't fully healthy. Yes. Able to go. That's it for us. But you will now hear our interview with Jared Allen, which we record on Monday, just so an FYI, in case anything has happened since then. We had an awesome time with him.

Yeah. He was a great guest. He was fun. Yes. Was had some pretty pointed questions to ask him, which I appreciate it. And he was very game for those as well. This was Frost Nixon damn there. Yeah.

that's right uh thank you to isia blakley thank you to ben cruz you'll hear allan now but we'll be back on monday talk to you then all right joining us now the starting center from the cleveland cavaliers jared allen what's up man thanks for joining us yeah i appreciate you guys having me so we're doing this podcast specifically in honor of your season with the cavaliers uh one of the best on record in cleveland i think there's only two other 60 win seasons in Cleveland history, both of them had LeBron. I guess just for you, what's led to such a success this year? It's a combination of a lot of things.

One thing mainly, the continuity of the team, we've been together for almost four years now. A lot of the guys have, and that's something special in this league. You don't see a lot of teams that are able to stay together like this. I think that's the key to our success. Kenny has been excellent. He changed up the offense this year.

I think everybody's striving in that. And, you know, the big piece, Evan. Evan's been on the tear this year. All-Star should be the defensive player of the year. And he's leading our team. Well, in terms of that continuity, Jared, where do you feel that most? Like, where do you see that come out

in terms of the benefits for the team, having a little bit of time to actually coalesce together? I would say, probably off the court mainly, like in the locker room. I'm a big guy on like locker room presence should be at the top one or two things on the teams leading to success. Obviously, you need talent and everything like that. But we're in the locker room.

We're having fun because we know each other because we've been around and we're friends, basically. Yeah. I'm glad you talked about the offense getting switched up because coming into the season, like guys that do what we do for a living. Like most people thought you guys were going to have a good year. But I'm not going to lie. I was a little bit skeptical of like what you guys could do on offense. And you guys came out and just kicked everybody's asses on that end specifically.

And, you know, and I'm sure you've heard people question the logic of the too big lineup. And maybe you won't be able to score. But you guys have defied that logic. What do you think is unlocked that for you guys, specifically. Yeah, I mean, let's be honest, the whole thing, two small guards, too big, is any of it going to work? But honestly, part of it's the continuity and part of it's just Evan just taking off this year. I mean, his three-point shot has succeeded. He's bringing the ball up the court. He's basically playing positionless basketball at this point. Well, you've been with

Evan for most of his career at this point. What do you think is the difference with him this season, as opposed to some of the earlier seasons you were then? He's not timid about it anymore. We all know Evan. He's more in his shell a little bit. I think finally this time this year, he's breaking out of his shell and he's starting to show the world

why he was the top pick. I mean, between Evan coming out of his shell, as you're saying, being a little more assertive, a little more aggressive, some of the additions you guys did make, whether with, you know, Ty Jerome being healthy and he's a guy who has a little edge to him, who has some chirp to him. Do you feel like the team has established a different kind of adversarial identity in terms of

not just being in these games and being competitive, but a different kind of spirit to it this year? Yeah. And like, Ty people didn't even really know he existed last year. If we're being honest, what he played like three or four games, got hurt, and then we just never saw him again. And then now he's like second unit. People like, oh, is he the next key piece of this team taking off, which he is? It's just all been working out. I want to stick on Kenny Ackinson a little bit too because I think he's a pretty fascinating figure for you guys.

I watched a clip. I think it was just yesterday of Jeff Teague saying that Kenny Ackinson was his like skills coach. And he had his best years of his life. under Kenny Atkinson. Yeah, no shoes. No shoes. He's guarding guys with no shoes. Is he still bringing that level of energy every day with you guys?

You think that affects your team? Every single day he brings that energy. That's just who he is. You know, it's not like he's trying to be over the top just for the sake of it. He's just that guy that brings the same type of energy. Interesting aspects to him as a person. But, like, you got to respect it because it's every single day he doesn't. So he spent, like, I guess a gap year in between when he had you first in Brooklyn.

Then he went and was with the Warriors, like, in the Bay Area with robbing them. Do you think he's, like, mellowed out and, like, become, like, a Bay Area, like, Zen, Buddhist type of dude? Or is he still the same Kenny from Brooklyn? He's definitely chilled out a little bit. Oh, see? Look at that. Oh, there's time. when it's like you see flashes.

You know, those PTSD moments of him coming back and the old Kenny coming out. Wait, can we get back to the No Shoes thing, though? Like, had he ever done that with you? And if so, is he still doing that in Cleveland? The No Shoes thing, I haven't seen it here, but I'm guarantee you, if you come here,

you'll see him hopping in drills. He's in defensive slides. He's doing everything. Still guard me. Well, I mean, with the impact that he's had, we talked about from an outside perspective for the media trying to judge what you guys would be capable of this year

and trying to figure out where things could change, where things could evolve. Did you ever think like a coaching change could have such a profound impact on the culture of the team, the offense of the teams? It seems like the energy is just so different with the caps this year.

Yeah, you know, you hear teams when the coaching change, it can go either way. You know, they super buy-in or things just start the shift in the way you don't want them to. We knew our team was going to be fine because we based everything off of the guys that we had on the team. Yeah. You know, our defense hasn't changed.

The personnel hasn't really changed. The only thing that really changed was when he came in and kind of just put us in the right position, move us a little bit around to really just elevate things to where they are now. Was there any part of that offense? that you had to be sold on. That maybe there was a little skepticism out of the gate that you kind of wanted to get up to speed

or to see work in action before you're like, okay, this really could be something. For me, being on the perimeter, I'm like, he wants me, like, diving to the basket. I'm like, I've never done this in my life before. Like, what are we doing? And then the first three games, when we started winning and blowing people out,

I'm like, oh, shit, you might be honest with something. I want to know, because something that I immediately noticed as soon as the season started was Donovan Mitchell, sort of de-emphasizing his own imprint on the offense. I think it's just a role that he's, that he had to assume in Utah and, like, early on with you guys, that he assumed that same role. What's it been like watching Donovan, like, evolve and how he, like, sort of impacts what you guys do on offense? Right. it's been interesting for him because we all know he can be that guy that goes out there and gets 30 any single night, right? Is that what this team needs every night? No.

You know, we got guys Evan, Darius, Ty, they all can go out there and do the same. You know, what he's had to come to realize this year is, yeah, go out there and be yourself. But understand, like, to get this team going, everybody else needs to evolve and everybody else needs to have an imprint on this offense. And he's done an excellent job. This year is the least minutes he's played per game. And it doesn't seem like it slowed them down. So you talked a lot about continuity, but I think if we were to flash back to last postseason

after that second round, I think everyone would have expected something would have happened with you guys over the off season. Like considering the copious amounts of trade rumors, which I'm sure you're quite aware of, did you guys even think that? Did you guys think that something was going to happen with the four of you? Someone was going to get traded over last offseason?

Honestly, who knew? You know, you hear so many different things from so many different sources about what's going to happen. The only thing you can do is just hope that you're going to be out there playing with somebody. You know, we all hoped it was together because we knew we had something special. But at the end of the day, we know how this business is. is we know what happens and whatever happened happens. So I want to know how that works, though, for you as a player because we know, like, you got family and friends hitting you.

They're on the ringer. They're on ESPN. They're reading the different rumors or whatever that you're in. Obviously, you have a direct line. You could call the GM. You could call the assistant GM or whoever. How are you when it comes to managing the chatter around, you know, your team and you as an individual?

I think it helps me because I've been through it before. You know, with the whole James Harton Trade and everything. Ah, yes. Yeah. I was a part of the Chad. They traded you for DeAndre Jordan, man. They said DeAndre Jordan was a better big than you.

That was crazy. In real time, that was insane, Jared. That's how it was. That's my guy. You know, it's, I understood the situation that I was in. Let me put the most political Maybe you should have showed them to a couple extra poker games or something, man. Godly.

I understand how this league works. I understand not everything's black and white. It's stuff that goes on behind the scenes. At the end of the day, you just got to make sure yourself is good. Well, to the extent that you guys did make a big move, is bringing in DeAndre Hunter, changing up the team a little bit. I'm curious from your perspective, in what ways do you feel like he fits what you guys do

and in what ways do you feel like he adds or kind of transforms specifically like some of the smaller looks you guys can throw out there? Yeah, first he adds to the defense. I mean, that was probably one of the first and foremost things that they wanted to make sure came in seamlessly. Defend that's what he's known for. He has a freakishly long, we can span, able to change people's shots.

You put him on anybody, you feel like he can guard one through five. I always say locker room-wise, great guy. You know, just a dude that came in and matched well with anybody. You would have thought he'd been on the team the whole year. You know, when he came in, sitting on the plane and everything, just a great addition to the team. Well, we kind of talked around Ty Jerome before, but I almost want to hear, like,

what happened with Ty Jerome this season? He obviously had been on so many different teams. Like, why has he been so successful for you guys this season? Right. Ty's always been a great player. Like before he got hurt and during training camp, last year, two years ago, before he got hurt, he was killing.

It was like, oh, this is going to be something special. You know, and obviously the injury happened and he wasn't able to showcase his game. But now he's come back with like a vengeance, like shooting every shot, you know, and just making sure he know, people know that Ty Jerome's here to stay. So I feel like you in Boston,

you guys in Boston have separated yourselves in the Eastern Conference. And to me, the two obviously best teams in the conference. I think coming into the season, I was one of those people that thought the NICS might be as good as you guys. I was clearly wrong about that. You and the Celtics are the two teams. And so, like, do you think about a potential playoff matchup? What do you think you guys would have to do to win in a potential matchup against the Celtics?

I mean, everybody knows that to get to the finals is going to have to go through one of those two teams. At the end of the day, it's one and two seats. Both of us are going to have home court advantage and all that throughout the playoffs. We just got to play good basketball. I mean, let's just be honest, they're an excellent team. They're the reigning champ.

They did all this before us. We're chasing them still. We have to come to a realization that there's, still the ones that won it and they have the experience and we don't know what it's like to be in the final. So all we can do is put our best foot forward. So your day job is obviously as an NBA player, but I think your part-time job is also being one of the biggest cultural vultors in the NBA. We have to ask a couple of questions about that. Like what are you watching lately? Like what's on your reading list? Like give us some recommendations.

Reading list. I've been reading a lot lately. know, for some reason, it's just books have been my go-to. Now, are you actually reading or you doing audiobooks? I'm on the train. Audio books do not count as a year. I agree. You're right. 100%.

Because you don't read the radio. You know what I mean? Listening to a book is not the same thing. Lord have mercy. So, I mean, books that I've been reading, or Project Hell Mary. That's a good book. The Three Body Problem series.

It's what it was translated from Chinese. Excellent science fiction series, by the way. Like, top of the line for me. I saw this movie called Ash recently, sci-fi movie. Yeah, that's really it recently. Well, you're teeing me up, Jared, because what I really want to know is your all-time favorite sci-fi classics. You can go books, you can go movies, you can go shows, series, anything you like. What is your sci-fi Mount Rushmore?

Star Wars is up there. You know, Star Wars, obviously, you got the, that's... The original trilogy, or are you young enough to be a prequels defender, is my question. I will die on the hill saying the prequels deserve more love than they get. Okay, all right. I will See, I'm already getting defensive about it You're a Jar Jar Jar Guy We get it

Yeah, yeah, yeah I am I am Star Trek is on there I just remember my dad watching it And I'm like What is he watching? It's always in the background

You know, Spock doing all that You know The three body problem series that I mentioned. Yep. That's one of the best sci-fi that I've read. I mean, you've covered

some of the big bases. You know, you've got your modern classic. You've got the institutions. I think there's room here if you have like an off-the-beaten path favorite. You know, this special to you, but maybe not as a claim. This would be the time for it.

Ooh. So a curveball with a cowboy beepop. Would that be? Hell yes, it would. Absolutely sci-fi. Scor. scorching soundtrack.

Look, you're going straight from my heart, Jared. I appreciate it. I did want to play one little Cavs game with you, which is which teammate would you trust under these various scenarios. First, which teammate are you trusting with the ox? If you need a music choice, if you need a DJ for any occasion, who are you trusting with that responsibility? I'm going to give it to DG.

Yeah. DG knows what. what song to play and win. I'll give it to him. He has a huge discography. Is that how you said? Yeah. I think of your big words here.

And he might throw some country in the mix, some R&B, obviously your hip-hop. He knows his stuff. I mean, knowing what to play and what is a point-guard skill set if I've ever heard one. It's really lining up for him. But which teammate would you trust to cook you dinner? If they were going to have you over to their place to cook you dinner,

who would you trust? I'm going safe bet. I'm going to say Sam Merrill. Really? Safe bet, yeah. He seems like he can cook a solid meal. Will it be the best thing I've ever had? I'm questioning, you know, but I think he gets. Do you think he has, it has the right palate? I'm concerned.

I wasn't going to go into the whole thing. I don't know who the guy is. But I will trust Sam to cook me a Monday through Friday meal. Well, we know that you, like our friend was here, is a cat, or you're a cat daddy. Sir. Who would you trust to take care of your cats if such an occasion were to come up? Ooh. This is a great question.

You know, I would give it to Evan. I feel like Evan is a responsible person. he's going to look out for the tad. He might not want to do it. You know, let's be honest. Nobody really wants to do something like that. But Evan would, like, give it his full attention. Okay.

So we had a little fun up here the other day, and we did a draft of the best white American players in the NBA. And there was some controversy because we weren't sure if Ty Jerome was eligible or not. And when did you find out that Ty Jerome had some more spice to him? Because I'm not going to lie. It was like two weeks ago for me. Yeah. He just has that thing about it.

He just has that vibe. You know, I didn't know he was, I didn't know he was black, like, half black at first. But it's like, you give him the side eye and you're like, is he not? I feel like it's impossible to follow up on that one. Oh, yeah. Yeah, where do you go from there? Well, I will say, as I read a bunch of stories about you, it feels like every single one, you're like, you're exploring a new hobby. Like, there's gardening, your woodworking, and all this other stuff.

Is there anything that you're into these days? Like, are you exploring nuclear fission at this point? Not yet. You know, I haven't got my license for that yet, but. reading books that's just that's just what i've been uh oh actually architecture oh i'm looking at i don't know why but that stuff's so intriguing to me what from what perspective like what are you reading about or watching what are you getting into uh anything and everything you know um just house tour videos you know mansion tours uh reading books about it uh contemporary you know i'm a

modern guy. I love the straight lines and everything. It's just, it's just entreating. Yeah, go watch Gwyneth Paltrow on Architectural Digest on YouTube. You will enjoy that episode. There you go. Okay. How does it feel, though, Jared, to be, you know,

clearly you're indulging us talking about all these different parts of yourself and your interests and your personality, but to be kind of typecast as a player of, quote-unquote, eclectic interests? Oh. Like, what kind of space is? that put you and how do you feel about kind of your place within the NBA ecosystem as as the person you are? That's like a great question. It's been a journey with it. You know, when I first got

drafted to the league, it was a trouble getting drafted because I didn't love basketball. That was like the big saying. More many different interests and everything. It's like I wasn't locked in. I didn't fit the mold. But then I was able to stay like, keep myself, be who I am, and still show that I'm good at basketball, you know, and I shut a lot of people up. Let's just be honest. Like, I go out and watch movies, do read books, and then go drop 20 and 10 or something like that, you know, and it's like, what are you going to say to me? You know, I think, I think people respect me more for me staying true to my interest than trying to fit into a mold where I don't belong. Yeah. And I'm not.

I would say you're not being typecast. Like, the truth of the matter is these other guys in the NBA don't share your interest. It's just true. It's like you said, it's just an interest thing. Everybody has their own interest. Yeah. Why do you think that happens in terms of the scouts and the GMs in the league when they, they at least in some places are looking for players who are so solely focused on basketball?

Why, you know, in any other line of work in any other place in the world, I think like a diversity of interest. and a wide-ranging kind of intellectual approach would be appreciated? What is it that's different about sports or about the NBA, do you think? Money. I mean, it is a lot of money to give to somebody to even question if they're going to fit into the mold, you know, into the NBA. And I get it. I completely understand because I'd probably honestly do the same.

I'd be like, is Jared Allen really the guy for us? You know, he's out here building legos every other night. Is he going to be the guy to be out there and guard, be honest every single night? I completely get it. Well, we appreciate you not only as a basketball player, but also your legal architecture skills and also your cat daddy rearing. But we appreciate your time with us,

and we'll get you out on that one. But good luck the rest of the season, man. Thank you for coming on, bro. Thanks, Jared. Appreciate you. Absolutely. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas. in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C.

Gambling problem, call 1,800 gambler or visit RG-Helpsheel.com. Call 1-88-889-777-7-7 or visit cpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MDGamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline, ma.org or 800 327-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 18777-8-8-8-Hob8-8 Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.