The Ringer NBA Show - Cavs Sweep Raptors, Sixers Hang On Against Celtics, SVG Out of Detroit, and Fiz In New York | The Ringer NBA Show (Ep. 264)

Episode Date: May 8, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor react to the Cleveland Cavaliers defeating the Toronto Raptors in a historic sweep (0:11) and the Philadelphia 76ers avoiding a sweep from the Boston Celtics (30:42). Then, they preview the two Western Conference series (41:06) and discuss coaching changes around the league (55:46). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday, which we're recording on a Monday night, actually in the fourth quarter of the Cleveland Toronto game, which we believe we have made an early call and think it's already been decided. It's Kevin O'Connor from Theringer.com, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Conflict, A.K.K.A. Kevin O'Conflict, Mr. Blow it up himself. Kevin!

Blow it up! Blow it up! You're not even going to let this game end. They're only down 28. No, you know, Chris, I wrote about it this week. And blowing it up would be nice. But I think you get a, you probably get a play out the next two years. And just try to build and try to maximize it. Because I don't know if the return's going to be there.

Not just a jump straight into it. This is not what I signed up for. I did not sign up for measured Kevin. So if you want to start to show over again with, they should just leave them all in Cleveland. I mean, this is now you feel that way

one year later. Now you do. Now you're on my team. I'm going to tell you this. Listen, this one, this is supposed to be your grand slam effort, right? Backs totally against the wall. If you lose your seasons over and they have laid down. And so, I mean, that is the most

discouraging thing of everything. You know, if you've got a team that scratches and fights and claws and you lose in the end, then there's a level of pride in that and there's a level of hope in that. But when you lay down like this, yikes. It's like DeMarieuze and said, his team thrives off of adversity, but that has not happened at all. Has it, Chris? Especially tonight, it's Cleveland, I mean, right out of the gate, really.

I mean, they were getting what they wanted. You know, LeBron James is a LeBron James and Kevin Love has been stellar, the past three games. And Kyle Corver has been fantastic tonight for Cleveland. Just Toronto's effort has just been really dismal. Nice to see $10 million Norman Powell making an appearance. For sure. Yeah.

And Bay Day also had a quick little two-minute stint and went minus 10 over those two minutes. Rough for Toronto, Chris. Well, here's the other thing. And I will honestly be measured for a moment. Okay. They've run into him early the last two years. I believe it's possible they were the second best team in the Eastern Conference last year. They ran into him before they would have that opportunity to prove that, right?

They could have been better than that Boston team. I don't think that that's a crazy argument. And this year, by virtue of the Cavaliers having an underwhelming regular season, they have to run into them a year or a round earlier, right? Like, you know that this Cleveland team is an Eastern Conference finals opponent. I mean, at least LeBron has been your Eastern Conference opponent every single year. And by virtue of the way the standings have gone, the poor Raptors, like, there is, listen, you can at least when you make the Eastern Conference finals, you can say, we're right there.

We were one step away from making the NBA finals. But they've gotten bounced around before that. And the only reason I think they've gotten bounced around before that is because they've run into LeBron around before that. And so I will say that in their defense. They clearly cannot beat this guy. So their best chance is to stay away from him. And they haven't been able to stay away from him for two years. Yeah.

And that was one of the points made in my article where it's like, LeBron has done this to your other teams, right? He put the Pacers, the Bulls, and the Hawks all into playoff purgatory. And the same thing has happened with the Toronto Raptors the past couple of seasons. And it's not Toronto's fault, you know, that they run into LeBron James every year in the playoffs. It's not their fault. Like, they have a good team. But the fact is that this was the team that was supposed to be good enough to beat a weaker Cleveland roster.

And look, look, they had close game one, right? LeBron hit a miracle shot in game three. it's not like they got blown out every single game, right? But the fact is that they still got swept, despite having their best team in franchise history, despite really assembling from top to bottom, a really good overall team. But you know what?

The difference is that Demardorosen and Kyle Lari still probably haven't been the best player in a playoff series since 2014 when they faced old Kevin Garnett, old Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson and that Nets team and they lost that series too and seven in the first round back in 2014.

I don't know what the next move is for Toronto. I really don't because they don't have a lot of moves to do. History will tell us outside of that 2004 Pistons team, one of the five best guys in the league wins the title, right? Exactly. That's what happens. We've been through that before.

We don't agree on how to get that player, but we do agree on that. Okay. So if that's being, said and you realize your plight is that you don't have that, then you need to do it with a collection of, right? It needs to be some of all parts. And I think that yes, Damar and Lowry have not been good enough. I also think that it has been so crucial that they get a third guy. That's what I'm saying. If you don't have the guy, then you need to have three.

and they don't have, they went and they spent all that money on Damari Carroll. And he just wasn't the third wheel that panned out for him. Do they have two of the guys, though? Do they have two? Yes, they've got two all-star caliber players. They need a third one. Ibaka stinks. He stinks.

When I say that, like, I realize, like how this sounds, they're martyors and how a lot of really good players, but they have really not that been that great in the playoffs. Well, here's what I'm going to tell you, Kev, if you don't have the third peg, then you can in a playoff series make life help for those two. And what I'm telling you is if they had a third, the same thing's going on with the Blazers. They've got two.

You can make it an indictment of Lillard and McCollum if you want. I think it's two at the same position. Two with the same position as well, right? Both guards. Yeah, and they don't have a third guy. Who's the third guy that's going to loosen it up for those two? Who's the guy that can go off for 30 if, you know, on a random night or 26 on a random night.

They don't have anybody that can do that. They don't have that guy. And, you know, ideally you would hope that player is O.G. And Anobi. But I don't look, here's the thing. Like, I don't think O.G. would be that guy over the next two years if O.G. ever becomes that guy at all.

He's a great defensive player as a rookie and only 20 years old, all already very good defensively. But the offense, realistically, what he's going to be is a good, you know, three-point shooter, spot-up attempts that can attack close-out. and throw down some really spectacular dunks for you, but I don't see him as a creator. No. He's going to be an outstanding role player, right?

A ceiling would be like Iguidala. And you'd be happy with that. For sure. But it wouldn't come in time for this core because Lowry is, the contracts for all these Raptors players are up. You know, some have player options. Some have team options. But 2019, 20, 20,

That's the last season for, effectively for Lari, DeRosen, Abaca, Valanchunis, and C.J. Miles. So they're five highest paid players, not including Norman Powell, when his contract kicks in next season, around $10 million. Their current five highest paid players are up in 2020. And over the next two years, if you're Toronto, what you need to be thinking about is, are we going to be able to maximize these two years? Are we going to be able to add a player that does make the difference? whether or not LeBron leaves because if LeBron stays, obviously I don't think you're getting through him.

But if he leaves, the Celtics are still going to get better because they're going to get Gordon Hayward, Carrie Irving back. They have a lot of moves that they can make as well. Then the Sixers should get better as well with Joe Lombie, Ben Simmons growing with all their max cap space and flexibility. Toronto probably isn't going to

be a favorite anymore for the next two years. So you need to find a way to get better or maybe you take a couple steps back and think about reloading in 2020, which is what we argued about passionately last year. That was the original idea for blowing up. Well, like I said,

I think the whiff is the third guy. They tried to make it to Mara Carroll. Didn't work. They tried to make it a Baca. I mean, you wrote that article and you listed their salary cap and I was like, oh, geez. I mean, because next year you know, and no discredit to Valenatudence

who's played as well as he could. Good player. And he had a good game tonight too. Yeah, but I mean, you're talking about 30, $38 million put into Ibaka and Valachunas? I mean, that is untenable. That was the risk last summer, right? Last summer, I mean, just to refer to the article last year on the ringer, which was like, the raptors are good, but for them to be great, they may need to blow it up, right?

The article, the article we argued about last March. The focus of that was, if Toronto brings back all these guys, they're going to be locked into that situation. Right now they are. about $126 million and guaranteed contracts next season. Like you said, $22 million for Ibaka, $17 for Valenciunas, eight for C.J. Miles, 10 for Norman Powell. They're locked in to that team.

And there's not a lot of cap flexibility. They don't have asset flexibility in terms of maybe younger guys to trade. Powell and Ibaka are the killers on that. I mean, just absolute salary cap killers. You know what you could do? But you couldn't blame them for bringing them back, though. Right? Like, you couldn't knock them for it necessarily.

If the choice is pay Surge Abaka $20 million or don't pay that was the conversation last year. It's like, do you really want to bring these guys back for this money just to run it back? Like that was that was the conversation last March. Do you really want to resign these guys? Do you really want to take that monumental risk? And the whole idea of like the plan last year was bring it back, see if it works. And guess what it did? They changed the system.

They hit on their rookie and OG and Ninobe. Like their young players played a. exceptionally well. Demardo Rosen and Kyle Laueri effectively changed within Dwayne Casey's revised system with more threes and more ball movement. It all worked. It's just, it's still not enough. And that's where it's like, well, shit, man.

Now what do you do? Like, everything worked the way it was supposed to. Even better than people could have expected it to. And it's still not enough. I mean, and obviously this is up to Messiah to figure this out because you never know the way it's all going to play out. You don't. In the end, I would have thought that the Carroll contract was one that you weren't going to be able to get off of. And he got off it.

He did. He got off that deal. Now, can you get off that Ibaka deal? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Well, and that's the problem, right? They gave up the first round pick to get off the Carroll deal.

And that's the price. That's going to be the price moving forward. If you want to get off the Sergei Baca deal, if you want to get off, you know, even Norah Powell, for that matter, with four years left on his deal. Well, the problem is the Abaca one's got 44 million left on it. Yeah. It's, um, I mean, the Carroll thing, you didn't have to take on 44 million. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't even know honestly how you could move that.

Carol had the two years, 29 million total, about close to $30 million total when they dumped them to the nets for, um, the first round pick. And so he bought it, like he said. And he was actually pretty good this year, Carol. Oh, yeah, he's still a solid player. I think, uh, you look, I mean, here's the thing. even if you dump a Baca, theoretically, let's say you just dump Ibaka,

he vanishes. Like you get a, you get a pick for him, let's just say, you're still over the cap. Like you still have, you still have a lot of money where you're not going to be able to.

Well, that would be my thing. How do you get the third guy? You can't. You can't. Tough spot. You really can't. If you were moving one of the stars,

Demar's the one, don't you think? I think you'd get more back for DeMond de Rosen. Because with Kyle Lari, we're talking about a 32-year-old point guard that's going to make over $30 million the next two years.

Whereas DeMar Rosen, granted he's a flawed player. He's younger. I think that works in his favor, and he's probably better overall. But then again, then again, you can make a strong argument

that Lowry's better because Laurie is a really good defensive point guard still, and he's still a better passer than DeMard de Rosen, too. That argument is fairly strong, even though DeRosen's a more dynamic scorer. DeRosen, granted he shot the three better this year.

He really only shot it better through December and then after that he went back to his same old like 27 28% from three my thing is and this was the argument last year was I was saying if the bar is going to be you can't beat lebron then i don't know if you just keep on making decisions because of that right we can't beat lebron and so it's not good enough and so we need to right tear it down because it's not good enough um that's that's the thing because nobody has this is now a years, right, that nobody's been able to pull that off. And the same thing goes on the coaching front.

Not only have we picked apart rosters over the years that have lost to LeBron, we have picked apart many a coach that have lost to LeBron, right? And there is part of me that wonders, you know, if you do it every year, if we pick apart these teams and say that they're not good enough, and we pick apart these coaches, And we say, like, do you really think, let's throw aside Brad Stevens, Greg Popovich, Rick Carlisle, whoever you think are the four or five best guys, right? Okay, so the rest of the guys, do you really think that the Raptors outcome in this series would have been dramatically different with a different coach? Probably not. Probably not.

I think that also on the flip side, Chris, is the argument, you know, a lot of Raptors fans are like Fire, Duane Casey. the fire during casing. It's like, well, sure. You know, you can poke holes at some of his decisions when it comes to calling plays or lineups he puts in the game. He's definitely not a perfect coach. He took until this season to overhaul the system, right? Like, it took long enough to start having a team shoot more threes and move the ball.

He's certainly a flawed coach, but if you're Toronto, it's like, well, sure, but he's also had a really successful season. What is the alternative? I think if you're Toronto, when you're, when you're Masayuji, and you're that front office and ownership and you're making that choice, you need to be sure that whoever the potential replacement would be

is actually an upgrade. Just to clarify, I do think, you know, a guy like Nurse, their assistant coach is, you know, highly regarded across the league. I think he would be,

you know, a realistic choice if they were going to look internally. Well, here's what I'll say. The Casey thing, I think he did a good job this year, but you know the playoffs

is where you make your money, right? You are only making your adjustments for the, the team that you are playing against and you're seeing them. It's not a one-off game, right? You're not getting to play a Tuesday night in San Antonio or they may be flying from a back to back against whatever.

I mean, you are now this is the money time for players. It's the money time for coaches. And if you have successive failures, now I'm going to say, if you're going to fire him because he's losing to LeBron, I don't think that's fair. If you're going to fire him because you just think, hey, we need a new voice. If we, we can't change the whole roster, right? Because of the situation we're in salary cap wise. But maybe we can jolt this roster.

You know, at least if we run it back with all the same thing, same roster, same coach, how are we going to expect a different result? And unfortunately, the coach is the easiest thing to change. Sure. That's what that's. Yeah. I think that's incredibly fair. If you're Toronto, it's a type of thing where, you know, we open the show. I mentioned how ideally you would blow it.

I think I would still blow it up. I would still blow it up same argument as last year that, you know, that we went like 40 minutes on. It's still the same thing. I would still blow it up. The thing is, is in order to blow it up, any deal that you would have to make has to make sense, right?

I don't think there's much of a demand for 32-year-old point guards set to make $60 million the next year. So many teams already have point guards. And the teams that don't have point guards, they're probably going to try to draft one or sign a younger guy. They're probably not trading for a 32-year-old. year old guy. Then with the Marta Rosen, from what I heard last summer, just from a couple of executives, don't, like, read much into it. But the vibe I get is that there's not a lot of the

man for him. Like maybe he's not as highly regarded across the league. So perhaps anything you might not get, that you might get in return for him isn't worth it. Isn't worth giving up the next two years where guess what? A tweaked ankle opens up the opportunity for you to make it to the championship. or maybe O.G. and Ovi suddenly develops into something you don't expect, right? Maybe you get a lucky break and Cleveland gets upset by somebody else in the first round and you have an easier path of the playoffs. I don't think there's a deal realistically out there that would make giving up that chance over the next two years worth it.

But if it is, then you do it. Then you pull the plug on the whole thing because you're setting up for a brighter future in 2020, just like, again, like we argued about last year. it's about putting your team in the best position to have success. I just don't know if the deal is out there for them to deal one of their two best players right now. I just don't. This doesn't seem realistic for them. All right.

Enough about Toronto because, and I'm sorry to all Raptors fans who I do love dearly, but this team has embarrassed itself tonight. I mean, they're down by 30-something points and they are not worthy of any more conversation. Let's clip to the other side, which is Cleveland. Yeah. Are they better than we thought they were? or is this a function of Toronto embarrassing themselves? I think it's two things. A, they have unlocked Kevin Love.

They have completely unlocked him. After game one, when everybody was calling for Ty Lou to start Tristan Thompson, he's like, you know what? Screw that, guys. I'm going to unlock the old Minnesota Kevin Love. Colin Moore plays for him, getting him the ball at the elbow more. He has engaged. He is scoring.

He is playmaking. He is doing everything right now for Cleveland. And it's honestly beautiful to watch. Like, this is what LeBron needed. I have long been on this, that I thought he was the most misused player in the NBA for much of his time in Cleveland. I mean, it seemed like so much of the game.

He's just standing in the corner. And it's just a waste. He is an outstanding passer. And he is extremely good in the post, which can open it up for everybody else. because I and I couldn't have but think about this. I was watching it tonight and he sealed the guy tonight and he did one of his little post moves down low, right?

This isn't something new. When people say Minnesota, Kevin Love, I actually went to Kevin Love's draft workout. It is the best draft workout I've ever seen in my life. Draymond Green was pretty close, but Kevin Loves was the most impressed I've ever been by a basketball player. They ran a drill.

The other players that were at the, the workout were Joey Dorsey, who was the center for the Memphis Tigers national title contending team with Derek Rose and them, Javall McGee, DeAndre Jordan, and one other big. Okay. Okay, yeah. So they did this drill where they put Kevin Love at like, basically you'd get it at the free throw line extended. You catch the ball there, and now you have to make a move and you have to score.

And the other guys, it would be like a rotating line. And so if you score, you get to keep on going. Kevin, I'm telling you, this dude went like, I mean, he went through that line of guys. And these guys were all way bigger than him. And Kevin Love was fat. And he went through that line. I mean, 20-dot, they couldn't stop him. He's stepping back.

I mean, it was like I was watching frigging Kevin McHale. Then they put him out on the NBA three-point line, and he knocked down 20 of 25. Dude, he's a killer on offense. I mean, he is so skilled, man, so skilled. And so propping him up in the corner, you know, in that offense and just LeBron pounding it into the ground, you know, driving or kicking out to somebody every once in while kicking it out to him in the corner. You know, I honestly thought that same thing earlier in this Utah series and how Jay Crowder.

Some guys just, you know, it's hard. It's hard to play sometimes with LeBron. And guess what? Kevin Love has also stepped up on defense. as well. He's had a really good playoff so far overall, especially in the series against the Toronto Raptors positionally on switches,

switches against smaller players in terms of communicating and obviously he's a great rebound. Everybody knows that. He's one of the better defensive rebounds in basketball and has been for his entire career, basically. Kevin Love has been good defensively for Cleveland and that's, this is exactly

what Cleveland needed. I mean, they're still going to probably be complete underdogs in the finals if they make it there against Golden State or Houston just because of the sheer talent on the other side. But the fact is, is that Kevin Love elevating his play on both ends, gives LeBron the partner and crime that he needed, because LeBron is going to be the superstar, the transcendent player that he is, but Kevin Love has stepped up. George Hill was looking better the past two games, especially tonight.

He had that big dunk. If they get contributions from some of those guys with their shortened rotation, putting five or four shooters around LeBron James. Who knows, man. Their offense is pretty spectacular right now. Well, pretty dynamic. And he has, we talked about the mythical shirt, the shirts that you make for, for great teams.

And Kevin Love has at least solidified his shirt name. So it's LeBron and Kevin. And we're still kind of, jury's kind of. He's on there anyway. He stopped Seth Curry on a switch in game seven. He gave LeBron the hug at the end of the game. He's on there. I don't know how much talk this has gotten.

Obviously, it's all like, it all feels like individual LeBron talk and then the rest of the guys are bums and even SNL did that. Yeah, S&L thing. I'm surprised they didn't air that one. But here's the thing. And this happened in the last game of the Indiana series or really with a couple games like that Indian series. You know what's happened? LeBron's just said, the hell with it. Give me all the old guys.

and that's what he's done. Coach LeBron. No, it's just like, stop playing all these guys that we acquired. It's me and J.R. and Kyle and Tristan and Kevin Love. Like, these are guys that he's like been through some wars with guys that want to ring with him. And so it's like all these acquisitions outside of George Hill, I mean, none of them have done anything. Yeah, and then Jordan Clarkson played tonight, but he's not playing a lot. And Clarkson really, really isn't that great.

But, yeah, they cut Larry Nance out of the rotation. They cut Rodney Hood out. And it's really just a lot of LeBron's guys plus George Hill for the most part. And speaking of playing his guys, Thompson has stepped up. He looks more like the Tristan Thompson. That's just a vacuum on the boards, hustling machine, screening, diving to the rim. Again, they're getting contributions from guys that didn't do much all season long. So I saw my buddy Mike Wallace, who I work with every day, posted.

So basically in the East, LeBron ended the Pistons mid-2000s conference stranglehold, stomped out the soldier boys' wizards, went to Miami to clip Boston's big three run, smashed the budding rose bulls, smothered PG's upstart Pacers, and ruined the Raptors, all in the decades' work. I mean, that is the thing, right? If he's the bar, like, I mean, come on, man, on one, one. If LeBron stays in the east, if he stays on Cleveland, that's the bar Boston and Philadelphia. I have to get over too.

Now, we were just talking about how well they've played. I actually think that this was a function of obviously, you know, the basketball itself and Kevin Love being unlocked and whatever has been. They have been much better. Cleveland has. That being said, I do think it is a large percentage of the Raptors. and I don't think they ever believe they could beat him anyway. And I think it will be radically different in an Eastern Conference finals if it's Boston,

which you'd assume it will be no team has ever lost a series after being up 3-0. But I think Brad Stevens will be able to take away. I mean, I'm obviously giving him a lot of credit, but I think he'll be able to take away some of the things that Cleveland does really well. and we had a very big sample size of them not being unbelievable. And we had a sample size in that first round where we know Indiana could have gotten them. I mean, they were right there. If Corver doesn't bury some threes in that game four, they got a three-one lead.

And I really believe Indiana could have won that series. And so I know our opinions sway drastically in, you know, just a week's time. I'm still kind of stuck on that. I'm still kind of stuck on what I saw of them versus the Pacers. I know LeBron's out of his mind. But they throw a rookie on him, and that's who they were counting on, this whole series. I'm not trying to totally shit on the Raptors,

but I think Boston will be a totally different story and that that will actually be a very hard series for Cleveland. And we will, my prediction is, well, here again, well, LeBron's team stinks, you know, He's got nothing around them, blah, blah, blah. That's what I bet. Because I think it's a function of the Raptors. They were a joke this series.

I mean, come on. And then just getting buried like this in an elimination game, come on. At least fight. If Boston takes care of business against the Sixers and advances, right? They had the number one defense in basketball this season. Whereas Toronto, yes, they had a top five defense. But since mid-March, they've ranked smack in the middle with before tonight's game,

107 defensive rating since I believe the date was March 18th. They've really been an average team on defense. So Boston, assuming they advance, which we'll see if that happens, crazier things have happened. Philadelphia is talented.

Yeah, they'd present a tougher challenge based on the fact that they can defend. We've got to get to who they might be facing because that game just went final as we speak, 128 to 93. That is just an absolute embarrassment. Oh, my goodness.

Oh, my God. 1-28. I think I'd be by 35 points with their backs against the wall. I mean, that just goes to prove what I thought, right? They didn't think they had a chance. And then tonight they just punted, right? Like, once they got down 3-0 and he ripped their hearts out in that last game in that third game, then this one was just like, forget about it.

Or I guess it, no, yeah, ripped their hearts on that last game. But where he hit the, going left and the little. bank runner or whatever. That was like, I guess the series just ended then because playing this game out tonight was just a colossal waste of time. We'll talk about the first game, which saw Philadelphia.

That's a team with their backs against the wall that did believe that they could win and extend the series and fought in order to make this a longer series where Boston's going to have to play a home game on Wednesday night if they're going to be able to close that they're going to be able to close Philly out on Wednesday.

They'll be able to do it at home. We'll talk about that Boston Philly game on the other side after these words. Bring our NBA show brought to you by Seek. Buying tickets can be complicated and confusing, but there's a simpler way to buy with Seat Geek. Seek is the smartest, easiest way to get tickets to every live event. Whether you're catching your favorite musician on tour, shopping for your perfect gift, or searching for a last-minute deal to see your favorite team, Seek Geek helps you find the best seats at the best prices, fully guaranteed.

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Best of all, our listeners get $20 off their first Seat Geek purchase. Just download the Seat Geek app and enter the promo code Ringer NBA today. That's promo code Ringer NBA for $20 off your first seat geek purchase. Seat Geek, right seat right now, right from your phone. All right, Kev, as we mentioned, Sixers won game four, 103 to 92, led by Dario Sarch's, 25 points, eight boards, four assists. T.J. McConnell, career high, 19 points.

Yeah, 19 points. and it did kind of feel like the insertion of T.J. McConnell into their starting lineup did have a profound defect on that team. He's obviously big time energy guy. He played extremely well tonight. And I don't I don't know what kind of odds you could have gotten on T.J. McConnell leading them in scoring. But he's got the career I-19 and beat as 15 and 13. Simmons had 19 to go along with 13 boards. Celtics got very, very frustrated. Three techs, the very rare Brad Stevens tech,

Jalen Brown got a tech, obviously Rozier got a tech with his scuffle with M-Bed. You know, I look at the box score, and the thing that jumps out to me the most is field goal attempts. They both went to the free throw line the same time. The Sixers got, 94 field goal attempts.

The Celtics got 75. The Sixers got 52 points in the paint to the Celtics 30, and they grabbed 16 offensive rebounds. Well, it's basic math, Kev. You ain't got to shoot up. You ain't got to shoot a great percentage if you get to shoot it 19 more times. Advanced analytics, baby. Right?

This is advanced. Here's advanced analytics for you. If I get to shoot it 94 times and you get to shoot it 7.000. I got a pretty good chance in beating you as long as I don't shoot a ridiculous. Because by the way, they still shot like hell from three. What they shoot like 20 something percent? Yeah, both teams didn't shoot well at all. Yeah.

You know why they had that difference because turnovers. Boston was very unusually sloppy on the offensive end of the floor in game four, which again led to Philadelphia getting a lot more of those shot attempts. That was really the difference. This is Boston turned the ball over 15 times to only eight for Philadelphia. T.J. McConnell didn't turn it over once despite possessing the ball such a large chunk of the game. He was unbelievable for them, Chris. He really was.

Do you think that that can have a profound effect on the series going forward? Or do you look at this and say this was a one-off, a team playing in front of their home crowd with their season on the line? And that that is, what do you think? Do you think they're on to something here that could really flip and we look up and they're having to, and Boston's having to play in a game six or a game seven? Or is this a one-off? In your opinion? Look, T.J. McConnell's probably not going to score 19 points again. He's not going to probably shoot nine for 12.

We did say that about Scary Terry 10 times. Sure. But we kept saying he's not going to score 20 points every night. And then he scored 20 points every night. But what McConnell did do, Chris, is that he was getting to the rim, right? Terry Rozier had a really poor defensive game. He's usually quite good, but he had a hard time keeping in front of T.J. McConnell. Maybe it was fatigue. Maybe after a long season, in terms of minutes' workload, the heaviest of his career.

He had a hard time containing T.J. McConnell. And that, honestly, I think, was what helped get Philadelphia a lot more easier shots on the half court. T.J. McConnell getting to the rim at will, which is not something, not words I expected to say, T.J. McConnell got to the room at will and led to Philadelphia 76ers to a game for a win. But it's the truth. He opened things up for the rest of that team and other guys like Dario Sarich

who had struggled thus far in the series was able to get a lot more higher quality shots that led to also him scoring 25 points for Philadelphia. You wonder if the move should have been made earlier? I mean, he obviously bailed on Covington. You were talking about how bad Covington

and I think it was like games one and three is like over 16. So I mean, it's like, come on. How many cracks am I going to give to you, kid? I mean, you're giving me nothing, right? And so he just bailed on Covington in that starting lineup. That was a great call by Brett Brown to do that. Yeah. Fantastic. Is it too late, though? That's the question. Probably. Now, are you saying that because teams up 30 are 129 and 0? No, I'm saying it because it's, it's never really over until it's over, right? Like, it's crazy thing. Someone tweeted me the other night, right? They're like, I'm a Raptor's fan how should I be feeling right it's like well first of all you should be feeling my crap but

there's always there's always a sliver of hope like there's always a sliver of hope like there's let me just go ahead and establish that you should feel like crap yeah and now I'm going to tell you something yeah life affirming yes because there should always be a sliver hope team teams have come back from down three oh in different sports and hockey you know people saw the flyers do it for Philadelphia fans, right? Boston fans have seen it with the Red Sox. They saw the Patriots come back down 28 to 3. Crazy things have happened in sports.

That's what makes sports so exciting, right? There's always hope, right? There always has to be. But of course, yeah, the odds are significantly against Philadelphia have a chance to come back this series because Boston's defense is so great because they are so fundamentally sound, right? they have continuously bounced back from adversity over the course of the season, whether it's Hayward snapping his leg five minutes into the season,

and then them winning 16 in a row or Irving getting hurt, et cetera, et cetera. The odds are not in favor of Philadelphia, but fans should never feel no hope at all. This is only the beginning for the Sixers. All right. I will be absolutely stunned if Boston doesn't close them out in game five. Oh, me too. Like, despite saying all that, yeah, I'd be surprised, too.

All right, you want to hear the craziest thing? The opening line is Sixers minus one and a half. Like, what the hell? They've been favored in every game. How are they favored in that game at Boston, though? They were favorite games one and two as well. And three and four. Yeah, they're favorite.

I think the opening line, I've never seen this on Twitter. The opening line for game three was, I think, nine and a half and it ended up at, I think, at eight. I forget. I just saw this on Twitter. They've been favored in every game. Yeah. I mean, in a way, like, they should be. I mean, they probably should be favored.

Maybe not game five, but I don't think they should be favored in game five. But I think they got it right for the most part earlier on in the series that they should have been favored. Philadelphia has a, has looked. Boston's missing Gordon Hayward and Kyrie Irving and even some of their bench guys like Daniel Tice. They're a depleted team. They are. Whereas Philadelphia was soaring, just absolutely soaring, closing the season with 16 straight wins and then taking care of Miami. they're clicking on clicking man they're fantastic and who gives cleveland a harder series

this is tough and i i think i would lean towards boston just because of their defense right they have the best defense in basketball and they've also been there before against lebron james twice in the last two two uh last three seasons i believe two out of the last three seasons and there's a lot more history there in terms of ways to defend that core that's now lacking Kyrie Irving on the Cleveland side that is whereas Philadelphia again it's still their first time here right they haven't been on the stage before they also got wings to throw at him right

they got wings to throw at the long list of guys on Boston to throw at LeBron James and and the thing is is like throwing those guys at LeBron you still a lot of those guys can still match up against others so Horford can defend love or you can throw them on LeBron if you have to right you know and so on down the line with that roster same with Marcus Morris for that matter too yeah I think that they

I mean, like either of them would have home court advantage in the series. You would pick Cleveland to beat Boston though, right? Yeah, I mean, listen, as I've said, until LeBron loses, I think it's foolishness to bet against them. Yeah, same. But I also think, I do not think that that series would end before six or seven games. Think it would be a long series. I mean, hell, the Pacers took them to seven.

Yeah, but you, that Boston team is better than the Pacers. They just are. They just are. Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, I think that there was a mental block that went on with this Toronto thing. Now, I read the other day, Horford playoff record against LeBron is pretty rough, too. I mean, listen, anybody's playoff record against LeBron's pathetic. So, yeah, until he loses, you can't, you can't bank against that guy.

But I also think that I could see Boston putting the fear of God in him. And again, they've got home court advantage, right? They've got home court advantage. That helps. And so I think that that would be a long series. Obviously, I think LeBron always still has to be the favorite. I mean, listen, our boss tweeted out for the world to see how insane it was that he was an underdog in this Toronto series. I mean, I can't, I still can't believe he was an underdog against Toronto.

You know, you mentioned the mental block. You know, I've been thinking about that. sometimes I feel like that can be almost exaggerated sometimes. But, man, like, looking back at some of the moments over the course of that Toronto Cleveland series. He owns them. Yeah, I know. I know. That's why people call it LeBronto.

Every time they started to feel good about themselves, he just, I mean, he just destroyed them again. I mean, I think really the picture of the series was when Jonas Valanchunis fell to his knees at the end of the game, I believe game three or was no, sorry, at the end of game two, right? The end of game two when they had a chance to tip the ball in a bunch of times and it didn't go in. Like, they just had like four offensive rebounds in the final seconds. Just didn't go in. Game went to overtime.

Yeah, that was game one. Sorry, not game two. Mixing it all up. He missed 15 layups at the end of that game. Yeah, that was. Yeah, that said it all. Brutal. All right, let's get to some of the games that are going to be going on tonight, which are

the Houston Rockets and the Utah Jazz. The series is not over yet. No, it's not over. It feels like they're over. Exum going out was really rough. Like if they were going to have a crack coming back the other night, Houston buried them in game three. And I will say, I was really surprised that Utah dropped both of them. After winning game two on the road, I figured at worst they'd split in Utah.

that crowd was unbelievable. Even down a hundred, they were still like cheering for the jazz. I mean, in a lot of cities that place is empty at the end of that game. Instead, they're freaking cheering on David Stockton. I'm like, oh, good. Have some pride. So no offense to David Stockton, but you're down by a thousand. The next game, they, you know,

they had their, I will forever believe this. In game four, they really had their chances. They had a chance to cut that thing to like six and five and four all the way down the stretch. After they had made that little run there at the end of the third quarter where I think they were down 14 going into the fourth. And then they were like chipping away, chipping away, kept on grinding. and every time they had like the big swing play, Capella ruined them. It was the best defensive performance I've seen by anybody this playoffs.

And I know you've been a longtime Capella guy as a rim protector in that game and as a guy, they were constantly switching him, getting him to do the switch so that he was going up against a perimeter guy. Ingalls couldn't score on the guy. Donovan Mitchell couldn't score on the guy. I mean, he was guarding all the perimeter guys step for step. And then he was, you know, that back line of that defense and was just protecting that rim like crazy.

And so the jazz, if they were going to have a chance and they were chipping away and they were getting the necessary stops, they couldn't score and they couldn't score because of him. They'd blow past people and he'd just be there swatting it out. He even hit him with the Mutumbo finger wag. I was like, okay, you see the Akeem Ologiwan in the stands going crazy. Oh, that was fantastic. And, like, they weren't just, you know, basic blocks either. I mean, one of them on Mitchell, he reached pretty much across Mitchell's entire body

and swatted it away with his left hand. And then on Gobert on a pick and roll, he swatted him with the right hand, like, right at the peak of Gobert's shot. Like, every block was of a different priority. And that's one of the things with blocking shots, not just putting your hand up on a layup, its ability to block at different angles with either hand. And Capella's unbelievable. He's in the perfect system in Houston for his offense and rim running.

And then his defense, he's developed into one hell of a player. Yeah, the crazy thing was, I looked at that box score at the end of the game. And I think they credited him with six blocks. I'm like, I feel like he had 30. No kidding.

It felt like a lot more. Well, I mean, that's probably the ones he actually, they're giving him credit for getting his hand on. I mean, he altered everything in that game. He was dominant, man. Dominant. Like, he altered so much.

These guys are trying to do up and unders. They're trying to switch hands in midair. And like I said, these guards couldn't even beat him off the dribble. He was just, he was locked in, locked in. And that's a different deal. When he's like that, when he's locked in like that defensively, that gives them. Because I do think they've got in the fourth quarter, they still, they're usually not going to run you out in the fourth. If you can, like I look at it and we can pay attention to this when they inevitably

play the Warriors, you just cannot get buried in quarters one, two, or three. If you can be in a close game against them going into the fourth, which is exactly what Utah was able to do in game two, then you've got a chance at them because they shoot so many threes, you know, inevitably your legs are going to be tired. You're not going to hit as high a percentage when it comes to the fourth. And they also stopped going to the rim as much. And so you've got to really run them off that three point line or contest those. And they're just not going. In fact, there was at one point in the season where their fourth quarter numbers were not great. And I think that holds true, especially in the playoffs. The problem is most these teams are buried by the time you get there.

Right? Like, you don't see the 40 to 20 fourth quarter from them usually. You see the, the 40 to 21st quarter or the 40 to 22nd or sometimes the third. But it's usually not the fourth. And so if you can just not get buried before you get to the fourth, but that is obviously much easier said than done because they just beat the shit out of everyone. And, you know, yeah, they do. And then when Utah did try to make those runs on the fourth quarter, as you said, Capella, you know, he was unbelievable towards the end of the game.

He had five blocks in the last two, three minutes of that game. And I think Clint Capella and, you know, the training staff for Houston deserves a lot of credit in improving his conditioning because he's a guy before this season that didn't play a ton of minutes per game. Even this year, he only played 27 and a half minutes per game. And I remember Mike Dan Tony, I think it was before this season remarked. He's like, you know, Clint's got to still improve his conditioning so he can handle a heavy workload. He played 37 minutes on Sunday in game four. And he was still blocking everything at the end of the game, still hustling up the floor. you know, conditioning is almost something that's overlooked a lot in sports where at the end of those

games when you're on your 35th, 36 minute in the playoffs, you still need to be fresh and Capella looked like he was. And that certainly, certainly is what put a hold to all of Utah's runs. I think there's any chance Utah could get them to have to play a game five in Utah? You mean a game six? Like, yeah, yeah, you say in sports, there's always a chance. I know, Kevin. I mean, I don't think so. I think Houston and, and, and, Golden State to answer the question for the next teams we're going to talk about. I think they're going to close it out. Okay, with Golden State, and I said this earlier in the series, I think I'd be surprised,

I think I'd be surprised that the Pelicans got wiped out. I actually think they're going to play really well against Golden State. I do. They got destroyed in that last game, but they were four for 29 from three. They're four for 29. So, I mean, obviously it looks terrible. and the margin was terrible. But they didn't hit a shot to save their lives.

And they got run out, obviously, in their home gym. And I don't know, man. I kind of think New Orleans, I don't know if they're not going to win the series. I don't think that they're going to lay down like that Raptors team did tonight. By the way, I don't think Utah will either. I don't think either of those two teams. I would be surprised, though their odds are long now, I would not be surprised if both are competitive,

but I kind of feel more like the Pelicans, I'm more confident that they're going to be competitive against Golden State. I don't know. I'm not. I'm not. I think the reason why is because Rajan Rondo, the guy who was having his renaissance in the playoffs, Golden State made him look like a liability in game four. And, you know, he shot only two for 10.

Floor was collapsed. I mean, Golden State's defense essentially was not defending Rondo. They were collapsing the floor. which took away driving lanes, which took away those driving kick opportunities for them. Fronda was critical. This is the thing.

Golden State's had a really good defense for the last couple years. If you let them set up their half-court defense, they're great. They really are. And how can you do that? Well,

how about you don't take the ball out of the basket every damn possession? And I think Golden State only had like three turnovers in the first half of that game. I mean, they were so awesome. them offensively. And they're moving the ball around and never turning it over.

And the Pelicans were just constantly taking the ball out of the net. And they're not going to be able to hang with them like that. And so I kind of feel like, you know, they'll be a lot better defensively. And they'll be able to be in that game. I still think the Pelicans are pretty damn good. I do. I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't.

Yeah, they are. But they're going against the Golden State Warriors with Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry, Clay Thompson, Traymong Green, they're starting their their Hampton 5 lineup now with Andrea Iguadala in there as well. Golden State has

elevated their play to another level on both ends of the floor. Like you mentioned, the lack of turnovers in the first half. That was an issue, you know, over the course of the season and even a little bit

in the playoffs with some sloppy passes. But in game four, they, I mean, it doesn't mean it'll carry over to game five, but they've been getting

progressively better, I do think. All right. If one of the two forced a game six, which do you believe is more likely? And this is actually a totally fair question because both are roughly 12 point underdogs. Utah. Utah. Really? Yeah. I think so. Are you saying that because of all of the gacks in Chris Paul and James Hardin's careers? Yeah, set it another way. Set it another way, there's more variants with the Houston Rockets. That's the nerdy way to say it. Because they vomited on themselves with close-out games.

Yeah, there's more variance. Oh, okay. Yeah. I guess you're your etiquette's a little better than mine. It's like Chris Paul said. I believe he said it after game four. He's like, I've been up three ones before, right? That's what you said?

It doesn't mean it's over. By the way, just to throw this back into the Boston Philly series, like, did you see Marcus Morris throwing up the three O to Joe Al-Lambide when they were talking trashed to each other during the game? It's like, dude, being up three nothing doesn't mean anything. It really doesn't. Serious isn't over. It's not.

Got a ticket one game at a time. I know that's a sports cliche, but it's really the truth. Yeah, but I mean, come on. Embed's talking crazy to him. I know. Why should he have been like $129 and no? Is that what he should have said, 129 and no historically?

No, I mean, I like Mb. I do. But like, come on, man, humble yourself a little. There's always a first, Chris. There's always a first to do it. Are you serious? Yeah, there is always a first. Oh, my God.

It's not going to happen, but it's going to happen eventually. All right, bet me on this one. Bet me on this one. I'm not bet you because I think bosses win in game five. But you're not. But if you're a Sixers fan, if you're a Sixers player, you're thinking, okay, win game five in Boston. We played them pretty close, you know, in game two, right? That means back in Philly for six, home crowd behind us.

We can turn this into a game seven. That's what you're thinking if you're a player on that team. And it's happened before in different sports, just not in basketball. I'm just saying, dude, like you can never, dude, someday it's going to happen. It might not happen for 30 years, but someday a team. in basketball is going to come back from down 3-0. I'm sure it will happen at some point.

You're right. Yes. It's just not this particular series. Therefore, your entire diatribe is non-applicable. 129 and no, about to be 130 and now, right? Yeah, I think it's going to be 130 and no.

We've got to take one more quick break where we come back. We will talk about the head coach in the NBA that lost his job today and a couple of the jobs that have already been filled. We'll do that on the other side. Bringer NBA show today brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Hiring. Every business needs great people and a better way to find them, something better than posting your job online and just praying for the right people to see it. ZipRecruiter knew there was a smarter way so they built a platform that finds the right job candidates for you. ZipRecruiter learns what you're looking for, identifies people with

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shave 30 and save 30% on a start bundle today. That's B-A-K-Blaid.com. promo code shave 30, because at Backblade, we've got your back. All right, Kev, so today was the day that we've, found out that Stan Van Gundy is no longer going to be a big wig for the Detroit Pistons. So he won't be on their sidelines anymore. First thing that ran through my mind

was, boy, I hope he becomes a broadcaster, because I think he'd be great at it. Obviously, we've heard his brother for many years be a broadcaster, but I think Stan would be extremely good. I get an idea. Pistons hire Mark Jackson, then ESPN

hire Stan Van Gundy. Mike Breen, Stan Van Gundy, and Jeff Van Gundy, all in the booth. I'm in. Can you imagine the Van Gundy brothers together? It would be like the best thing or the worst thing. No, it would be the best thing. The absolute best thing. I'd love it.

I would love it to happen at least once, just to see how it goes. That'd be fun. Yes. We can get to the failures in Detroit. I really thought that that was a good hire and I thought that was going to work out. Let me just say that right off the bat. I had a very high opinion of Stan Van Gundy. and as I've said many times on this show and others,

I do think that it is a different skill set to roster construction and then actually coaching the team, right? I mean, who knows if Brad Stevens, who we laud and magnify for his ability to coach on the sidelines, who knows if you told him like, okay, and you're in charge of the roster too, right? And you're the one drafting guys,

and you're the one like Danny Ains has been masterful and putting together the roster. The best. And I know there's already an article on the ringer by shocker about Stan Van Gundy's exit signals the end of the coach GM. I mean, you and I talked about this with the Doc Rivers when he got his title taken away, and we thought that Stan Van might.

You know, if you don't get your title taken away, you lose the whole job completely, which is exactly what happened. Tibido's kind of last man standing, right? Like, I mean, he's in Minnesota, in terms of dual role. because I know that Popovich has a higher role than just had coach, but I mean,

he's always had R.C. Buford as his GM. I think Tibados are the last one, right? Yeah, yep. He is. It's a tough gig, man. You can't coach a team and prepare game to game and do pro personnel scouting, watching the rest of the league,

and watch all of college basketball. You can't travel overseas. You know who coaches love? Coaches always love guys that bust their ass. that's who they love. And they've always got higher opinions of guys that bust their ass. I'm talking about when you coach against them, right? That's the level of player personnel.

I mean, Doc did that for years. I've been around 10 different coaches now over the years. They always think that the guy that, you know, gave them buckets one night or that had a really great game against them one night, they've always got much higher opinions of those guys because they were, you know, killers of their team. teams because you're right. You think any of these guys are going home and watching the rest of the league?

Like when you were saying beyond the draft thing, because that can be a little overrated in terms of just evaluating the best players in the draft. I don't think that you necessarily have to be the guy that's watched 100 million hours of film. Being there live, though. Yeah, I know. But these guys also have time. I mean, you inevitably are going to have scouting departments that can, hopefully you hire people that can trust.

The draft is one thing, and it's hard anyway. The draft is a hard thing to figure out or to get right. But I think you're dead on when you talk about the pro personnel. That's what you miss out on, right? And because you're not watching the rest of the league. You're so focused on that night. And you also have opinions of guys on your. roster that a coach's opinion of a guy is obviously going to be much different than someone

that is separated from that guy. And sometimes that's for the good and sometimes that's for the bad. But sometimes coaches have to be forced to do things. And so you just trade people, right? So I've always thought that it's two different skill sets, almost impossible to master both. I mean, the day's a red hour back 100 years ago. They're gone. I mean, you saw how shitty Phil Jackson was at it.

You know what I mean? It's not easy. And Phil Jackson's like one of the greatest coaches ever by any estimation, right? And so the legacy of Stan Van at the Pistons is crap, right? I thought it was going to be good, Kip. Yeah, it's going to be a tough situation. Whoever gets hired, you know, for the new front office rolls or whoever gets hired his head coach, it's going to be tough. I mean, they have talent in that team to be fair.

I mean, Blake Griffin's a good player, but he gets hurt all the time. Andre Drummond is good. He improved a lot from the free throw line. Luke Conard, quietly had a really good rookie season. Granted, if you're a Pistons fan, you're still pissed off that they didn't take Donovan Mitchell, who worked out for them, and there was rumblings around draft time that they were considering him heavily. You're happy with Conard, but it's not Mitchell. There's good talent. Reggie Bullock's a good player.

Again, it's almost similar to what we talked about with Toronto, except to a lesser extent. They're in a spot now where they have $11 million and guaranteed salary already for next season and definitely more once they get Bullock locked into his $2.5 million deal. There's not a lot of flexibility. For that time, about the guys on the roster.

Obviously, this year was destroyed by Reggie Jackson going out. We know that, right? I mean, they had to start Is Smith for the majority of the season. I don't think Drummond helps you win basketball games. Let me just go ahead and say that. I don't. He's always thrown into the talented guys and, you know, one of the better guys. And I know, I know all of his numbers.

Like, he's one of those guys when I watch him. I'm like, I don't even care what the numbers say at the end of the game. Like, I never feel like it matters as much as what the stats say that I feel like it should matter, right? and he's not much he doesn't like haunt you defensively I just I don't know you got 20 something million dollars sunk into Andre Drummond

he'll get you his whatever million rebounds every night but you'll lose he's a really good player he's almost kind of like the the martyrs of centers or something like like a good player but you know he's not the guy for your team good player though

I mean you can't throw him to him and get a bucket yeah that's true it's fair And he's not guarding the rim for me. Solid rim protector. Whatever. He's not Clint Capella. He's not Rudy Gober. He's solid.

I guess. He's an incredible rebounder. That job is a... He's a good passer. Good screener. That job stinks right now. Yeah. It does.

It really does. It stinks. I know. Who wants that? Unless Blake Griffin magically stays healthy, which I know. That's a pipe dream. It's like beating a 129 and no odds to come back down. 3.

All right. This is the last thing I wanted to close with today. Oh, I do need to mention for all my Knicks fans out there, the Fisdale thing. That job has eaten up better men than Fisdale. And many people know I covered Fisdale. I know Fisdale. I like David Fisdale. I think he can be a perfectly fine NBA coach.

I don't think that, you know, from what I saw, I don't think he is, you know, obviously if the bar, like we say, it's like Brad Stevens or whoever, Greg Popovich or whatever, I don't think that, you know, there's some of these, there's very few guys in the league

that I think your win total is massively offered if they're your coach. So I'm not trying to say this as a slight. I just don't think, I think they've had good coaches before. Mike Dan Tony got chewed up and spit out. And I think Jeff Hornets is like a good coach, and he got chewed up and spit out.

And so I think most of these coaches are, a function of their roster. They're going to be as good as their roster dictates they're going to be. And some of them can help you win a couple extra games. Very few of them are going to help you win a lot more games than whatever you already would. That being said, you know, one of the things that really went sideways in Memphis was a guy that comes from Miami who's, you know, got the chest poked out and they, you know, need

a, you know, just like, you know, we're changing the culture here. You know, you guys haven't accomplished shit and look at these rings and whatever else. Look at these rings. Thanks a LeBron. Yeah, well, right. And you don't think veteran players thought that too. You know what I'm saying? Like, they didn't feel like they needed a culture change.

And whether they did or not, right? They had established this grit grind that this was the Memphis mentality and all this kind of stuff. And they didn't need that culture change that, right? You ain't taken over a bunch of losers, right? you're taking over guys that had accomplished something in the league and it had really good seasons and they are mega beloved like these four you know the core four guys in memphis conley gasol zbo and tony allen and so when you talk about like a you guys you know basically don't you hadn't won anything and you know listen to me because because he hadn't won anything

as a head coach he'd been an assistant coach for a lebron james dwayd christ bosh team and so i just think it went over poorly with that and obviously went over crucially poorly with Gasol. And then it ended. You can pull all that shit off in New York because you do walk into a locker room of a guy's guys that have never done anything. You do need a culture change and you do you can say you guys don't know anything about winning because like they really don't. My question for you is did he become overrated after

the take that for data thing? Oh, I think he's very, very media savvy and I think the media love. loves him for good reason. It just feels like before that ever happened, there was never this talk about Fisdale best coach, one of the best coaches of basketball. Then after that, it's like everybody loved him. I mean, he's a really good coach. Yeah.

I mean, it's just that's simple. Well, listen, part of that is a function nobody gives it crap about Memphis. I mean, if I'm being, if I'm being honest, because all they knew was they took the spurs to six games. Yeah. I mean, the Grizzlies last year, go back and look, from January on, they ston. They stunk. And because Gassol hit a game winner and because they forced six games against San Antonio,

Antonio, who was a really good team, it made everybody forget. That was a underwhelming season by any measure, by any measure. And here's what I'll tell you. What's going to be interesting is you get, and listen, I've lived there, you know, I've lived here for the last 18 years. You get kicked gloves. It's not the same. I'm aware of that. I've never said that, like, small towns don't get it the same way.

or that a small town coach gets it the same way that a big town coach does. It just doesn't happen that way, all right? But like, let's just say like the Zbo thing. So Zbo's the most beloved player, he moves him to the bench. And he says at the beginning of the season, right? You know, he's going to be the best six man in the NBA.

We're going to win six men at the year. He's still going to be closing out games, playing these minutes and blah, blah, blah. And Zibo, though he was not happy, about it was a consummate professional about it, right? And then I think it was all fine until Fizz said at one of these things, he just went a little far and he said nobody in the league's paying him to be a starter anymore. And that's when, and here's not wrong.

Well, he got $12 million in the off season. Yeah. Okay. But here's what I'll say. In Memphis, it's just like Zibo. I'll give you the example. So in Memphis, your headline is Zibo okay with moving to bench or Zbo going to be super sub or whatever, right? Like, that's the headline.

And then there's an article written about the transition that Fisdale's making and how much he's moving to Michael Green to the starting lineup. And this is going to, you know, the Grizzlies are altering the way they play and Zeebo's fine with it, whatever. In New York, that shit is like it's on the back page. you've got like the worst picture of Zach ever like pissed off and it says like Z Bench you know what I mean right and then you have to deal with it and I don't I don't I don't know how he'll handle it in New York I really don't I really don't we'll see that that job has chewed up I mean listen people thought Mike D'antone was a piece of crap when he was there come on yeah it's going to be difficult I mean and now he's lauded for his genius

But you know what? In many ways, like it almost doesn't matter, right? It's like it's about what Christopps Porzengis turns into. It's about Porzinga's staying healthy and continuing to grow. That's really like the key to everything, no matter who the coach is. Yeah. And the last thing I want to just mention to you, because the draft lottery is going to be next Tuesday night. Hell yeah, baby.

It is a week from when most people are listening to this. I got one little gripe, okay? And it's not towards you. Okay, cool. It's not towards you. I appreciate that, Chris. That means a lot. So you know how many times I complain about these mock drafts?

Yeah. And I've called them mockery drafts and I've said, hey, they all are right now. Well, when we talk about the group think that goes along with all of this, right? Okay. So I've been keeping up daily with ESPN puts out there like top 100 prospects, right? And I'm not doing this to slander anybody. I'm just saying this is the way stuff is and I find it ridiculous. So you know I'm a big Colin Sexton fan, right?

Yes, you love Colin Sexton. I love him. A week ago, Colin Sexton was like 14th. The 14th best prospect, right? You look it up today, he's nine. So what the fuck happened in the last week? Did I miss Alabama games that took place? Marvin Bagley moved back up to like three.

Like, guys are moving around in this prospect list that's going on. And people are, if you want to, to present it as a mock draft and here's what I think these teams are going to do. But in terms of like ranking players and these are the best players, how in the hell can draft prospect lists change now? As far as I know, Donchich is the only one that you should be able to move up and down. But like what did Colin Sexton do? He was the 14th best prospect last week and now he's the ninth and Marvin Bagley was the fifth best prospect and now he's the third? Like what?

So I think with DX, with Draft Express, I think what their list is is essentially an approximate consensus based off feedback from NBA executives. I believe that's what it is more so than actually Jonathan Gavoni's actual list. I think I think that's what ESPN does. That's what they do with Chad for. And I think that's what it is now, where it's, it's approximately the top 100 based on feedback from NBA executives. So if there's more feedback, if there's more information that, hey, Colin Sexton is a guy that's more likely to be in this range than you bump them up. I honestly don't have a bunch of an issue with it at all. Like Marvin Bagley on my personal board, I have them five right now.

The odds are when we do the update and the ringer's 2018 to be a draft guide next week when we're going to expand to 60 players, odds are I might bump him down to six. It's just a little personal change where let me just let me just add this too, Chris. on DX I think that's their board for me right now a lot of these players are don't look as much at the rankings as much as the range right so if a guy is nine and he's ahead of a guy at 10 he might also might not be that much different than the guy at 13 it's about so what I'm saying is anybody just giving their own opinion

on this stuff or is it all just I talk to some certain GM I don't know told me that this guy's good and so now all of a sudden you know, Gilges Alexander was 19th, but now he's the 12th rest prospect. I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm pretty sure that's what Ford did, and I'm pretty sure that's ESPN does,

where it's just based on feedback from any of the executives. And look, Chris, like, we're at the point right now with the draft where there's a lot of fluidity. It never gets locked in until around mid-June. Like, look, with big boards, there's a difference between ones based on feedback from any executives, and then there's a difference between the ones

that are based on your own. personal rankings. That's what mine are on the ringer draft guy. That's what Charks is on. Let me help you out. Go ahead and get Bagley up at number one or number two and go get college sexton in the top seven. Trust me. Trust me. I'm not. I'm probably going to have Wendell Carter ahead of

Marvin Bagley when it's also done. Oh, that's fucking stupid. No, it's not. What are you talking about? What? And I don't know for sure, man, because guess what? There's a lot more. There's a lot more to learn about these guys. Just trust me. Look, the college season ended in March. But for a lot of them, but it doesn't mean more can change between then and June. How?

Because players train, you learn more things. You learn about potential injury concerns. No, you just talk to people that tell you different stuff. Your opinion should not be able to change drastically. Look, that's why you need to be cautious about some of the information you're receiving about certain guys. But you could also see progress. Like, if a guy's changing their shooting mechanics and like, whoa, like totally overhauls

a shot, or he's working on a weakness and turning it into a strength, seeing a work out with your own eyeballs, that's the type of stuff that can change your opinion on a guy or confirm your opinion on a guy for good or bad. Things change, dude, a lot between end of the season and the draft. They just do. Fordiculous. Look, here's the thing. Don't pay attention to the rankings too much until June. That's all I have to say. You know I already reached out. Especially don't pay attention to mock drafts until like, actually I shouldn't say that because when we put out mock drafts on the ringer. It's like saying, don't look at it.

It's like, but really, mock drafts don't have a lot of value until like a day or two before the draft. All right. Well, here's, listen, I've complained about this so much, right? I said, I'm going to do my own.

I'm going to say, I don't care with it. Hey, I don't care what any of these mock drafts say. Here's what I'm telling you are the best guys. Here's the guys I'd put my neck out for. Here's the guys I'd be scared of. Here's the guy.

Right. Now, to it. I actually, and I have spoken to Chris Ryan, and I believe I'm going to do this for the ringer. So you wait. You just wait, Kevin. You just wait. Because I do talk a lot of trash about this whole draft stuff and the process and all this group think and everything else. But, hey, wait

till Elverno Diablo becomes a writer. I'm coming for your neck. I'm coming for your neck, yeah. There's two draft resources to look at. One, NBA draft. The ringer.com. Check out the Ringer's 2018 18-A draft guide.

Next week, we're updating our big board and we're expanding with 30 more of my draft profiles. Get more stuff coming out as well. Team needs pages. It's going to be dope. And then the second thing

is Chris Vernon's draft rankings. No, I'm not doing anything. I'm not doing anything until after the lottery is. Oh, I know, I know. Yeah. Of course. Yeah, it's not out yet.

You're going to, it's like Mike Mayock doesn't drop his top 100 in the NFL until close to the draft. It's like everybody's anticipating it. that's what that's what your list is Chris you're going to make people wait make them beg for it oh what I'm saying is I just want

somebody to like have like I get the mocks like the interest in the mocks is being right okay and so you can gather information you can try to figure out who that guys who that team's going to take but what happens is all of these are just

a collection of what whoever executives willing to run their mouth and then everybody just copies off each other because all of a sudden guys are moving up and down. And then by the end, everybody's got the same damn lottery. And we know that a couple of the guys out of the top five are going to be bad. And that this guy's... And so I get that like Daniel Jeremiah of the NFL network switches his mock at the last day

to put Baker Mayfield number one. Now, he doesn't think that Baker Mayfield's the number one quarterback, right? That's the difference between mock drafts and big boards. A big board should be probably your own personal opinion. I prefer when a big boards that way. I'd love to know when people have their own personal opinions out there. My issue is when people copy the big boards more than like, who cares about mock drafts? Mock drafts are irrelevant until the day of the draft.

They're clickbait, all of them. I would try to, I would try to, I said I was going to try to help you. I'm done helping you. Don't move bagly and sexting up. And then I'll have them in my thing. Yeah, it's like there's some draft sites out there who like they look at the, the accuracy of rankings, you know, from the prior years drafts, and we have to make sure yours gets on that list. Do like a top, do like a top 60 or something like that.

No, no, no, no. I'm not trying to be accurate. You said you're going to have a more accurate list than me. Oh, in terms of the best players. Yeah. Well, then that means you have an accurate list then. No, I don't care if Phoenix is stupid and takes eight number one. No, it's not about that.

I'm not, I'm talking about the big board. I ain't trying to be right on that. I don't care about that either. I'm talking about projecting the players ahead. Oh. I put my head on a guillotine that Marvin Bagley's better than DeAndre Aiton. Well, your head's falling off, Chris. No, it's not either.

No, it's not either. It's rolling down the street. No, you'll see all these mocks will move around. By the end, it'll probably be Bagley one sexton two by the end of this. It could. It could. Who knows? All right, Kev, it's always a pleasure.

These late nights ones are fun. And by the way, though we crapped on them a lot, shout out to the raptors for getting bombed so badly that we were able to record early. Oh, man. What happened? Yeah, we recorded earlier and then we still went late. Yeah, that's true. All right.

Go get some dinner. Yeah, thank you, Chris. Have a good night. It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. If you think what you're here and go give us a rating and review on iTunes and we will talk to you next week.