The Ringer NBA Show - Celtics and Sixers Win Again, and the Bulls Even Up the Series | Group Chat

Episode Date: April 21, 2022

Justin, Rob, and Wos start by discussing the Celtics' comeback victory over the Nets at home to take a 2-0 series lead (2:57). Then, they discuss the Sixers taking a commanding 3-0 series lead thanks to Joel Embiid’s game winner in overtime (21:54). Lastly, they wrap up with the Bulls beating the Bucks on the road and tying up the series 1-1 (37:29). They also look at the impact of Khris Middleton’s injury in the short term for the Bucks and how it affects their title aspirations. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Chris Martin, and me and my buddy Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O Everything, host an NBA podcast called The Mismatch. They call it The Mismatch because I'm awesome and Kevin is a gigantic nerd. No, no, that's not why at all, Chris. They call it the Mismatch because I have a brain and you're a loudmouth bozo. Good grief. Anyway, listen to our amazing NBA podcast, The Mismatch. Or don't.

We really don't care. We're probably going to win a million awards either way. Chris, we do care. So don't say that. Please subscribe and listen to the mismatch only on Spotify. Did you really call me a bozo? Welcome to group chat after dark. I am Justin Verrier.

Big Waz. The guns are out for Waz. Rob Mahoney is here. Gentlemen, what a night of playoff basketball. Waz couldn't keep his shirt off. Exactly. It was getting so hot and heated in here. Watching Alex Caruso so lovingly.

I can't lie to you guys. I felt touch. But yeah, it was just a lot of fun basketball. Just interesting storylines going forward. This is dope. Yeah, I can't wait for another, what, thousand times where I see that same Matt Stafford commercial because good Lord, I've seen it so many times already.

I'm going to go nuts based on this one thing. You know how you can avoid that? You can actually watch League Pass, watch the games on League Pass via the app, which is what I've been doing. Interesting. But the only thing is you would have to switch back to T&T to get a halftime show.

Otherwise, you get stuck watching the lady kicked the bowls to her head on the one. Red Panda. The lady. Come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a respect on Red Panda's name. Exactly. On the Matt Stafford front, not to get too far afield up top, but does he have the kind of face recognition

where you don't even need to say his name in the commercial and everyone is supposed to know who he is? because I got to admit, I had no idea who he was the first time. No shot. He's a football player. I saw that commercial. Stop it. You played football in Detroit for like 13 years.

Nobody knows you. I've seen it so often that I'm actually in the Zabruder zone already where I'm like, I actually don't think that girl who's in all those commercials was even in there. Because if you look at it from the front side, the hair is different color than the back. I'm just saying. We're getting, we're getting into it. And for the record, my partner thought that it was Haley Joel Osmond in that ad. So that's kind of where we're at.

Interesting. Yeah, he's a little shorter. All right, a lot of playoff action tonight here. Three really good games. I'm actually kind of disappointed that they overlap so much because I only caught certain halves of some of the later games. But the first game, let's start pretty big implications from this one. The Celtics beat the Nets.

Let's start here. I was feeling after game one where Jason Tateham hit that obviously incredible shot, that this is a tough one for the Nets, not only because of obvious reasons, but because everything they got in that game seemed hard, right? And while they played well early in this game, in the second half, things got very, very, very hard yet again,

especially for one Kevin Durant. I guess the question is, Rob, are the Celtics guarding Kevin Durant better than you've seen anyone guard Kevin Durant throughout his illustrious career? I think so. And certainly since he's reached supernatural prime era Kevin Durant.

Since Tony Allen. Absolutely. Since guys were able to kind of push him off his spot, can't really do that anymore. But as the Celtics are showing, you can throw a lot of bodies at him. You can put a lot of length on him. And Kevin Durant, I mean, he looks exhausted, for one. And even stranger, it just looks like he doesn't have

the answers for the first time in five or six years, frankly. And so it's strange to watch. And I don't know about you guys, but I think what's been most striking to me, and it was from the opening possessions of game one, he has been mishandling the ball a lot more than usual. There are hands constantly poking away his dribble, forcing him to second-guess things. He had six turnovers in game one, six turnovers in this game two.

That's concerning for me, for a guy who has always been in such command of how to get and get into and create his shot. Yeah, I mean, KD, we could get into some of the shots that he was taking throughout this game. But I thought on the main outside of like just his general shot selection, you know, he was, again, he was getting the ball out quickly. Bruce Brown freaking to start the game scored their first nine points. They were loading up on these guys and they were like, all right, our ancillary guys are getting wide open practice type shots. You know, they're getting to the basket.

They're getting to spots that they're very comfortable hitting. And it was working to be honest, as bad as case. AD and Kyrie were this game, they were in control of this thing going into the fourth quarter. They had a comfortable lead. It was basically going from 9 to 13, 14, the whole entire time. And then they stopped making shots. I thought they, you know, I thought they defended well enough against this Boston team. It's not like Tatum and Brown were killers today.

I just think their shot distribution, both he and Kyrie were kind of. of horrific. Mostly, I think the worst example of this was when Kyrie took that step back against Horford. And what complicates this is that KD and Durand are the two best bad shot makers in the game. However, friend of the pot, Aralabob Valgaris sent me a stat. He said in the last four years, no, five years, excuse me, only one team has shot over

40% of their shot distribution being long twos. the Nets and that one team that did it, they lost. One team's done it in five years in the playoffs. The Nets are at 45% right now, which is just like, Darryor Worry's got to be spinning in his grave right now watching these Nets. Waz bringing the stats.

I know. What an upset. Stats Lambrey over here. We can think Bob. He's probably put some money on the game. He's got some good stats back in here. I mean, but did it seem like that throughout the course of the game? Like, it didn't strike me as KD was taking

particularly bad shots in this one. Because it's KD. Yeah, those mid-range shots are like the shots that he's always going to tape and he's going to make them most of the time. I thought the bigger thing was more just like the hands that is Rob kind of alluded to. They were just all over him. And KD had a quote to this effect that they were sending

two, three guys at him. Al Horford founded of youth for El Horford basically just roughing him up and being a difference maker on both ends. I don't know. I just credit the Celtics defense. Just seems like even without Rob Williams, they're playing at a level like Detroit Pistons O4 style or even like actually I was going to ask you guys this.

The switchability with the size, that sort of combination, I can't think of a single defense since the Warriors dynasty. Like can you guys because the Rockets for instance had success being switchable, but that was mostly with like smaller fire plug type of guys. I can't remember a team like this doing basically what the Warriors did. I think and we're going to get into a playoff bucks in a second, but, or playoff bud, we should say. But I think there were times where the bucks finally started doing this last year. And I think that's when they ultimately took off when they were like, wait a minute, we got PJ Tucker, we have Janice Santo Ducco, Chris Middleton, we have Drew Holiday, who's the best

perimeter of a defender in the whole freaking world, the strongest dude at his size for his position. Yeah, let's start switching stuff a lot. And it unlocked what they could do defensively. But yeah, the Celtics, but we all thought this going into the playoffs that their defense would carry the day because they've been, you know, all world

basically since December. And that was the case tonight for sure. And again, there's something to be said for the shots that they're making Kyrie and KD take. But at the same time, it's like, just step back a couple of steps and take a three. Like, just get the extra points. Like, just do it, guys.

There is something, too, though, between, knowing that the defense is this good and seeing it against Kevin Durant in a series of this magnitude to go up to zero, which is, I mean, that's an incredible, it's not quite a stranglehold, but quite a position of strength to go forward for the Celtics. And to do it with not just Rob Williams, but as Justin mentioned, Al Horford switching, who's had a really great defensive season. And right now is looking like Florida Al, running the floor, just a bundle of energy. Grant Williams has been such a great switch big for them. they're playing Daniel Tice's serious minutes and there was points where he was one of the most important players in the game, that they're getting those minutes from their bigs.

I mean, that's the series right there. Yeah, I think I'm just struck by it. One, because the defense has been so dominant, again, such a great offensive team. And to see any defense be this dominant in an era where offenses are just out of control is surprising. And also because I think even though all of the math suggested that the Celtics could be a juggernaut, even in Zach Crams-Ringer odds machine, they have the best title odds of anyone.

I think it's the same for most statistical models. I think they still needed to prove it against a very good team. And they've done all of that thus far to the point where I'm racking my brain here, I'm like, what can the Nets do in order to counter this? Because as we kind of talked about already, the Celtics offense wasn't that good this night. I don't know if anyone had a particularly awesome night offensively. It was more of a by committee, a couple of guys shipping in here and there.

Like, nobody was particularly bad. No one was particularly good. And so on a night like that, you would expect the Nets to steal one. If they can't win a game like this, Rob, like, what are the next moves here? I think it's for Kevin Durant to make more than a quarter of his shots. Like, that's what it has to be.

If their stars are not scoring at an elite level, they're probably going to lose. That's the way their team is constructed right now, especially, you know, with a very important player in the roster, Ben Simmons sitting on the bench. If he comes back at this point, I don't know what kind of shape he would really be in,

realistically, to help them. But they just have, they don't have a lot. They have these supporting guys who are going to be able to play off of double teams. But if you're asking Seth Curry to create looks on a bum ankle, that's not going to go great. Patty Mills has not had a good, especially second half of the season. This was Goran Dragach's best game yet, and it just didn't matter. Like, they need, they need so much more in order to keep up

in a series like this, but the good news is Kyring Durant can give them so much more. Yeah, you know, at a certain point, some of this is make-or-miss league stuff where they just got to make shots. And I think, again, like I mentioned with the shot distribution, like, yeah, bro, like, go downhill.

Stop posting KD up. You make this dude so much easier to double and triple that way. Like, he's not a freaking post player. Like, use him for what he's got. He's a threat to score from wherever he is out of, on the floor. So yes, why don't you make it harder on the defense and stretch their asses out

that way? wording, that was strange. But, you know, at the same time, God, in the drumming minutes, I'm over it. I'm done. I'm over it. They weren't even that bad. I get it, Rob. Yeah.

He's someone large, you know. Yeah, what else do you want them to do, I guess, would be the question. I mean, at this point, it's got to, you got to have a two-man center rotation. of KD and Claxton, or, I don't know, dust off Blake Griffin, dust off Lamarcus Alders. Let's see what those fools got. I realize that they're AARP at this point,

but try something different. But yeah, other than that, man, I think, because here's the thing, I think they're getting away with a lot with their guard rotation at the Celtics have still not found a way to exploit to this point in the series yet. And I find it,

hard that they're just not going to figure out how to attack Patty Mills and Kyrie and like, like they haven't done it yet. But I feel like that's coming at some point as well. Yeah, the fact that they haven't done it is not proof that it's safe. It's kind of the ticking clock of the series is like we saw in this game, they're just trying to lob passes over the top of Bruce Brown and Seth Curry to Jalen Brown and stuff inside. And those passages aren't on point yet, but they will be. You give them four, five, six cracks at it.

They're going to figure it out. Yeah, it does seem like their counter could be to go with the, it's a small world lineup where it's just KD surrounded by guards. But like, how many like minutes, let alone games do you think that could work for? Especially when Seth Curry has been pretty shaky, when Patty Mills, as you mentioned, has been pretty shaky. And I don't want Kevin Durant playing five full time. I imagine they'll go to it just knowing Steve Nash wanting to just like ride his best

players for as long as possible here. I wouldn't be surprised if they even start like that at some point. Or maybe if Ben Simmons comes in, maybe Ben Simmons plays more minutes at the five and then that's how you get drumming out of there. But like, I don't know, man, it seems like a kind of hope and a prayer that Katie and Kyrie can kind of save you,

which is like a good hope and a prayer. Like maybe that will happen. They can win a couple games here. But overall, this is getting pretty late pretty quickly. This is a very small thing and probably irrelevant, but I kind of, raise an eyebrow when the Nets waved

James Johnson so that they could get Kessler Edwards on their playoff roster. I'd get one in Kessler Edwards, but you couldn't cut one of these other bigs that you're not playing, and maybe there's more going on behind the scenes with James Johnson, we don't know. He didn't have a great year regardless, but just in this conversation, the do we

have to play Andre Drummond conversation? It'd be nice to have another dude who's like 6'9 and can rebound because I would shy away from playing Katie at the 5 as much as you possibly can, because that dude is tapped out going against a tough defense. There's a reason why he's seven feet tall and he had four rebounds in this game.

Like, asking him to do all of that, I think is asking too much. Let's talk about the Celtics now. I mean, we kind of already have, but I'm curious what you guys are thinking was about them now that you've seen two games and they've played so well. Are you reconsidering at all your thoughts about the Celtics and the big picture, finals title picture? No, I mean, I thought they had a reasonable shot. know, all things considered, I'm still very worried about what they do in the half court.

It still looks just, like, nasty and naughty at times. And I'm just, the two big lineup, I'm sorry, it just gets on my nerves, right? Like, I get it. I get why they have to, why they feel like they have to do it. It's just playing Tis and, or Tice, excuse me, and Horford to get, like, this insistence upon it. It's just annoying, especially when you got Grant Williams on the team. I don't know. I just, I'm still worried about what they do in the half-court

because there's moments where Jalen Brown, he just has tunnel vision. Like, the defense sent some help his way, and he takes 20 years to recognize that somebody else is open. And by that time, the lane is closed. It's too late. That passing lane is done. So I still worry about their ability to playmake in like, you know, really high tense against really great playoff opponent defenses.

But yeah, you got to love what they brought the defense. The defense has traveled to the playoffs. This isn't a Utah jazz situation where the defense is dominant in one context. And in the playoffs, it's completely different. But, yeah, you got to be happy if you're a Celtics fan about what you've seen so far. There was kind of an interesting eye test versus the numbers thing going on with Boston's office. tonight because I had the same reaction you did. I'm watching them like trying to exploit

Seth Curry and Andre Drummond and it's just not Swiss watch precision going on out there. But then you look up they shoot 52% from the field for this game. Their offensive rating was 122. That'll do. Yeah, that'll do.

And you know, they were able to get these live ball turnovers where they converted which again, this is the type of shit they need. They didn't play bad offense today. I'm just saying it's the They're not good at defense. And so, like, it just didn't look how you might want it to look. Like, in that first half, the way the nets were dissecting Boston, who's a great defense, you know, by contrast, I was like, man, they were just picking their spots, right?

Every time Boston made a move to try to send, you know, defenders to an area that they felt like they needed to sort of secure, Brooklyn was getting it to the right spot early. their role players felt very decisive in what they wanted to do. That's how you're supposed to look. It doesn't always look like that for Boston. So, yeah, they had a nice offensive rating. This was a big win for them. Obviously, their best win of the season

considering the context. And yeah, this was dope. The spirit of Brad Stevens is alive with that Daniel Thais' starting lineup, man. But on the one hand, like, it's perplexing, I think, to everyone except for Stevens and Doka. on the other hand, they still have the Grant Williams

next to Horford move in their pocket. Like if they wanted to go with that more often, they still have that. And the fact that they haven't had to turn to that, like just all the time, I think is encouraging. I don't even know that it's that perplexing, though. You know, like the Nets play super small

in their second line. They're going to play Andre Drummond to start. If there's going to be a time to play Tice, it's going to be at the beginning. Yeah. I think they would do it regardless. They might. They might.

Some things you just feel in your soul. You know, you just feel compelled to do. Yeah, I will say, like, I don't know what's going on with Derek White. Like, was he ever able to shoot? I remember him making a three. He shot 40% of one. No, but that was in the bubble. I think he shot 40% or something like that.

And he basically hasn't been able to do that since. Yeah, I guess those are the lingering concerns there. I think you guys have nailed it. Like, the offense hasn't been great. Tatum, obviously has had. a couple moments, but where else is it coming from? I don't know, though. Like, they've been the most convincing team, I would say, of the top tier teams thus far.

Do you guys think of anybody else? In the East, at least, right? Yeah. What you want to throw in the Warriors? I mean, some would say Golden State. I would say the Warriors are in there. Yeah. Golden State, though, is playing the worst team in the real playoffs, in my opinion.

The Nuggets have been pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That team is really bad. When we had Adam Marez on the show on our weekend show, he was like, the playoffs, this team is like really easy to figure out. It's like nobody's going to have a hard time figuring out what to do against the Nuggets. Well, they have one dude who's in the role he's supposed to be in.

Not a great recipe for success. Austin Rivers? Yes, exactly. Austin Rivers. Actually, too. Bryn Forbes also into the role he's supposed to be in. Hey, Hoops fans. Don't just watch all the NBA playoffs.

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ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. 1-8009 with it in Indiana, 18777-7-70 stop in Louisiana, 18778, Hope-N-Y, or text Hope N.Y, 467-369 in New York, Tennessee Red Line, 1-800-889-9-9-8-8-9-8-9-8-1-8-2-2-4-7-0 in Wyoming, or visit www.1-Gambler.net in West Virginia. Yeah. All right. Well, let's turn to another team that has been winning rather convincingly, or maybe not depending on how you're looking at it. The Philadelphia 76ers now 3 and O up on the Toronto Raptors after a big win in Toronto with John beat hitting the not buzzer beater, but what was it?

Like two seconds left on the clock, 0.8 seconds left on the shot clock. So they did it. They won. But Waz, I don't know if I'm feeling as warm and fuzzy about the Sixers. So full disclosure, I missed the first half where they were getting their asses kicked, their teeth kicked in. I would love for Rob to elaborate on that because I was watching Brooklyn. And I don't have five TVs in my house like some other people. I'm like Rob. I just got a DVR, y'all.

It's not that complicated. But, no, but, but, but, but, uh, What I will say is by the time the second half rolled around and this thing got really close, it felt like inevitable that the Sixers were going to be able to get the requisite stops against, you know, Pascal Seacom Isos, you know what I'm saying? Like at a certain point, like a Pascal Seacom stepback being the best that your offense can generate, you're just not, that's not how this goes in the postseason. So once it got close.

like hero ball, like flailing into the defender. Come on, come on, man. And these are guys that I like. I really like these guys as role players, but they can't be the focal point of an offense. And so I'm not surprised that this got close and B basically rode this thing out to the finish. Yeah, the only reason this game was close

and significantly closer than the first two was that the Raptor's defense was much better, at least for the first half, and still even largely in the second half. They just had that thing going on where Maxie was getting to the rim anytime he wanted in those first two games and Hardin was picking guys for threes and Embedd was getting whatever he wanted you can't win that way and so they were at least able to muck it up a little bit

for some turnovers they played a much better possession game in this one where 12 fewer turnovers Sixers set their season high for turnovers in this game with 22 that's a recipe for a game you can win and if precious Sachua makes one free throw with you know when he goes to the line with a couple seconds left in regulation, you know, maybe you do win it. But it's brutal. It's brutal for their offense trying to score against Joel Embed. The conundrum that he puts you in specifically, I'm very curious to see how other teams try

to solve it because obviously you have to have a big on the floor or else Embedde is just going to eat and eat and eat. But if you do, he's going to stand in the paint or at the elbow. And whatever you try to create out of ISO or pick and roll, he's just hanging out. And now, like, Pascal Seacom, Fred Van Vleet, OG, all he's. guys were trying to make things happen. And Abed is, there's just a tall shadow over every single action they tried to run.

So, Waz and I saw the end of this one, which means we saw Doc Rivers drawing up stuff. Mostly Joel M. Bid facing up from like half court multiple times in multiple crucial possessions. He did hit the go-ahead bucket, which was like a catch and like turn around

three-pointer, which for a guy who's seven feet tall and like 300 pounds, wherever the hell he is, That was unbelievable. Just your classic MVP center hitting a turnaround three. No big deal, you know. Right. But Rob, you cut the entire thing. So the view from the CN Tower here give us, like, was it any better for the Sixers?

Because what we saw wasn't particularly great. It was a little better. And I would say, yeah, the defense, as we mentioned. And then also health-wise, I think there's some promise. Just the fact that Gary Trent Jr. was back. He's been out with illness really over the last two games. He tried to give it a go in Game 2 didn't really work. So he was looking great.

And theoretically, they seem optimistic about getting Scotty Barnes back for game four. But if you're down 03, I'm not sure how much game four, it might be a little too little, too late in that regard. So they just haven't been able to generate clean offense. It'll be a little better with Barnes if he's able to come back. I think there's some micro things that are really promising. You know, just the fact that in overtime of this game, Tyrese Maxie and Juel and B tried to run that pick and roll over and over and over. And Preches to Chew and OG and Nobie were just switching it and blowing it up every time. That's cool to see projecting forward for what this team could be.

I don't know that it's really going to save this series, but it bodes well for kind of the individual pieces that the Raptors have there. Yeah, and look, I'm kind of off of the Doc Rivers as a decent coach thing. I just don't think he is anymore. That's just not my opinion. However, I will say it's been about three years since somebody's thrown a competent entry pass to Joelle and Bede. Like,

like that, and that was going on before Doc was in there. Like, there's just, these dudes just don't know how to get him the ball. And so it turns into,

like, I want to make sure that my best player, MVP guy gets the rock, and it's this high screen and roll thing. You know, it's not going to be like a pin down or a big to big pin down

or something like that. It's just like, who's going to get him the rock? Like, even if we spring this guy loose, who's going to give him a rock? I need to send you guys a clip because,

the first quarter of this game, Tyrese through maybe the worst entry pass I've ever seen. It was amazing how how far away it was from Joel and Bid and how directly into the hands of Fred Van Vlito was. Just tremendous stuff. So where are we on the

Sixers temperature check here? Because they've had moments, Maxie in particular 38 points in that first game. They are 3 and O about to waltz into the second round here. On the other hand, like, you know, things have been dicey at times. in particular, you know, Hardin has been fine, followed out in this game, but he has been distributing it well.

Was, where are you on just like the Sixers thermometer? Are you like all the way in, which I guess would be like blazing hot? Are you a little cooler? I'm a little cooler because your perimeter shot creation is looking like the best player at it is a second year guy. and this idea that he's going to be able to carry that load. That seems like a dubious one at best to me. And look, man, my man Nate Jones tweeted it. Like, James Hardin cannot get past nobody. He hasn't done it all series.

He's doing his, you know, grifter move, grabbing the arm, throwing it up, doing one-handedness, not the quick first step. And his best move, again, there was a certain. certain defenders on Tarasms, I'm like, look, that's not OG Ananobi. Why are you dribbling 20 times and taking a step back against this kid? And that was his go-to move. So like, I'm still worried about James Hardin when perhaps they play a team like, say, the Celtics down the road.

That ain't going to look good for them, you know, as far as perimeter shot creation. So that's why I'd still be worried about them because, you know, Hardin was supposed to solve that problem for them, right? Like, it was supposed to be like, all right, we've got our perimeter guy. And I don't know that that's the case. And Maxie has shown signs, but can he really be counted upon to be the sole person generating that part of your offense? I don't know.

Well, I think you're absolutely right in truth of the shot creation. But what Hardin does do for you is he gives you. And frankly, I'm ashamed this was so important for the Sixers to get a guy who could dribble once in a while. Very important to play basketball. And so as a handler and most importantly as a passer, Hardin has been very good in this series, even without creating that separation. That's really good to see that he's making Tobias Harris' life as easy as it can possibly be.

And activating- Lord knows his life hasn't been easy enough, right? Let's all pour out some pity for Tobias Harris. But yeah, like George Nying, all these guys, and this was a harrowing one because after James Arden fouled out of this game at the end of regulation, they just, plug George Nyang into the starting lineup for overtime at the three. That's what it really illuminated, how shallow this team is. And so if they aren't making the most of the guys they have, they're not going to go very far.

And I think Hardin is super important in terms of maximizing those role players. Yeah, they're especially shallow when our guy, Thibol is at home polishing his healing crystals. Yeah, Hardin's distribution has been good, right? but there and that has made everything function a lot better but there are times where I'm like is it great that like the bar I have for a pretty recent MVP is like late career Jason kid where he could set everybody up he's not that bad he's not that bad he's better than average Jay kid for sure but I the sentiment is felt trust me late net's Jason kidd um 18 points 10 assists the game about six rebounds.

It reminds me of when we were having all-star discussions going into that and Hardin was averaging about a triple double and you're like, you know, it hasn't been great, but at a certain point like the production is kind of unimpeachable. I just think that, and I tweeted this, one of my few

tweets from over the past couple days, he kind of has settled into this role of like Schmedium Tobias Harrius, whereas he's like, what? He's like a high level role player. No. Right? No, absolutely. money to be insulary. I'm not going to put Tobias Harris on him because

Harris has been good at his playoffs. I'll say that. Even this, even when he's not physically getting stuff done, like he's just headier than everybody on the court most nights, right? Like, he's just smarter. Um, and he makes smart plays all the time. So like, there's ways that he's contributing in like a Cal Lowry, Chris Paul type of way just by how cerebral he is. And I don't people talk about how genius James Hardin is at the game. Like, he really has a knack and understanding that is at the level of anybody you want to name. So he's bringing that as well.

But, you know, it's just the stuff that we wanted from Hardin is, man, that these guys desperately needed. He hasn't shown it. And maybe, you know, maybe he'll turn vegan at some point during the playoffs and he'll get it going. He'll, you know, hit the time machine. Is it that fast acting? Like a couple Impossible Burger?

you're just off to the race. Listen, soy is a miracle food. It's true. Get some O in there too. Let me ask you guys this. Going into this next game, who would you expect

to be the second best player on the Sixers? I think it's hardened. Yeah. But you had to think about it, right? Yeah. I think more because Maxi was so good. Yeah, yeah.

This is a guy who's dropped 40 already in the series, right? So you got to put him on a consideration, but yes, Hardin. It's just, again, and I'm somebody who, when everybody was complaining about, oh, you remember it was the hipster NBA thing to say was, I don't like watching James Hardin play because he gets fouled. You know, like, when everybody was doing that dumb shit, I was like defending Hardin.

I'm like, yo, if somebody's fouling you, because basically they can't stay in front of your ass. That's it. There's no two ways about it. So, you know, I've always had a lot of respect and, like, what Hardin brought to the table is just that he ain't. doing that anymore, man. So that's why it's a question.

But we'll see. Maybe he'll figure out a different way to contribute. And that's another thing. It's like some guys, their skills sort of start to diminish. And obviously it's hard to expect that it would happen rapidly, but they change the way they play. You know, like James Hardin is doing the exact same thing he was doing in 2017 as far as his approach to the game. It's not like he's become this guy that's like, yo, I'm going to run off screens.

I'm going to do this. I'm going to be an off ball threat. I'm going to cut off ball. I'm going to do all of this stuff. Like, I'm going to, I must make them start running elevators so I could pop out for three-pointers and all. No. He's just, just give me my usage, dribble the air out of the ball. Hopefully it works.

Sionara. See you later. Yeah, I guess my point is just, it seems like they're all kind of on the same level now. Harden, a maxi, a Harris. He's falling into that tier. I don't even know how to make sense of that because you're slandering Hardin. Watson's been slandering Maxi for like two years running now. I don't know.

I don't know where that puts any of these guys. I like Maxie. He's young, though. That's it. I like Maxie. I like Maxie. I like that he lives downhill. I love that about him.

He's fearless. But he's a young guy. And I'm sorry, young guys don't get it done for you. That's just has not traditionally been the case in high stakes NBA basketball. That's why I don't want to be. too dismissive of the guy, but he's a second year dude. I'm sorry. You was barely getting off against the Arkansas Razorbacks two years ago.

And now I'm supposed to be like, oh, he's going to be the savior in the playoffs. I can't do it. Yeah, I'm not putting him at that level yet, Justin. We haven't had a chance to see Maxie fail yet. And I think he's going to need to be in some bigger moments before we say, hey, you're as good as one of the best offensive players we've ever seen. But you might consider him surprisingly great, right? Kind of like our friends at State Farm.

Yeah. You know? Absolutely. At the end of the regular season, some teams have questionable losses that make fans skeptical of their chances. But then they flip the switch when the playoffs start and surprise fans by beating the best teams in the league and showing how much they want to win a ring. Rob, other than how buff bigwazes, are there any other surprisingly great teams from

this playoffs? Well, I think the teams we were just talking about, in particular the Sixers, the fact that they're up 3-0 is surprising. The fact that they have controlled the series in the way that they have, that they fought through this competitive game 3 in particular. I didn't think they were going to make it out alive at certain points, especially late in regulation and an overtime. But they figured it out. Dwell and beat is unstoppable. He hits shots that no seven-footer, maybe other than Kevin Durant could possibly hit. And here we are.

I got to say, I'm surprised by the Pells. This has been such a ridiculous, absurd season, really chaotic. Their best player hasn't played at all. Some might say, I think even by some I mean us, we made that argument on the show that they had nothing to play for. But they've come out and shown a level of professionalism and just effort level that I'm surprised by. And it's really cool to see that they're playing with some level of pride, man.

They're playing against the team that basically ran through the NBA this year. and they're showing up and they're giving them everything that they can handle. And so shout's to the pelicans for that. They surprise me. Well, even when you assume a team may not have all the pieces in place, they surprise everyone by proving they're worthy of a championship. It's like people that assume they can't afford great insurance, but then they discover that State Farm has surprisingly great rates.

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. All right. Let's wrap this up with the last game of the night. quite the slob knocker, which we weren't expecting. I was just hoping to cruise through this last game, but really had to plug in into the second half because the Bulls came back, or not came back,

they actually kind of dominated this game. Bulls $1.14,109 to even the series. DeMarter Rosen, 41 points. Let's start with the Bulls end of this, Rob. Here's my question for you, because the Bulls were in the first game in game one, but then they kind of let it slip away at the end there. Did we underestimate the Bulls going into this postseason?

Clearly. I would have picked this as one of the series that could have been a sweep, could have been a five-game series, could, I mean, maybe it still will. It's only one-one. I don't want to overstate things too much. But I will say we both underestimated what the Bulls could do in terms of applying pressure, in terms of Demar being a playoff performer, in terms of what their defense and the problems it could cause.

And we probably overestimated the Bucks half-court offense, which continues to play with fire or really something more mundane than that. Like they leave the iron on or something. thing, but they are serious risk of just like burning possessions that are critical to them. And the Bulls have taken full advantage of that, not only with DeMars setting, you know, his new playoff career high, but so many of their role guys have stepped up. This has been a big Vouch series. This has been a huge Alex Crusoe series.

They're getting lots of key contributions from lots of guys. I mean, to me, the Vooch thing that's most important is that he's not getting completely mauled inside. He's doing the mauling. Like, he's posting up Yonis. this series. Exactly, which is not what I would have expected coming into the series. And, yo, God bless the Bulls. Of course, we know superhero Alex Caruso. We already know what he does defensively. But as a team effort, because with Janus, it has to be a team effort to keep him

out of the paint. They're doing it, man, and they're doing it well. And, you know, it's got the, the, the box half-court offense has that old feeling of just sludge. When I watched him play, I just see just nasty, just black sludge just dripping just slowly out of a freaking landfill. It's just, ugh, it's just disgusting to watch at times. Sorry, folks, for that visual. But it's just so bad to watch at times. And then, you know, Drew Holiday, like, at the end of the day, he can't stink offensively if the bucks. Very low bar, but yeah, he needs to get over that.

Like, you can't just be abjectly bad, bro, if the bucks are going to succeed in the playoffs this year. And he had some record scratch possessions where he was just scared to shoot the three. At one point, he bricked a wide open layup. Just smoked it. Just completely, just nobody was there and he just missed it. Six of 16 from the field. You know, like, at a certain point, Drew Holliday's got to be competent. offensively. And I think that does mean

him having the ball in the half court and creating around the gravity that Yannis can draw. Just making smart decisions. Yonis gets so much defensive attention. It's not like this dude has to be Chris Paul out there, which by the way, just imagine Chris Paul was on his freaking team.

But... Look, they won the championship. We don't need to what if Chris Paul. That's fair. You're right. You're right about that. I was just really just thirsty for that thing that happened. It would have been sweet. But yeah, it's just they're at, look, man, I tweeted this. I was like, I thought we were rid of playoff bucks.

I thought we were done with it, but apparently we're not, guys. Well, it's not going to get much easier because as we were recording this, we find out that Chris Middleton has sprained an MCL in his left knee. He left in the fourth quarter. It seemed like he slipped on a play. And then he went back. And it seems like the diagnosis is already out here. Sprangy MCL is what I believe Anthony Davis had,

which made him miss four weeks. I think it was about a month. 17 whole games. So I think the postseason as a whole is in jeopardy for Milton. So I guess the question, Rob, how are we feeling about the Bucks' chances right now? Well, Drew's going to have to be better than competent if Chris Middleton is out for any foreseeable about time.

Forget what I just rip up what I just said. If Chris Middleton can't play, Drew Holiday literally becomes the only other shot creator. Nothing, they got nothing else. Or they got to like throw it to Josh John is of course. Yeah, throw it to Brooke on the block or something.

Like it gets real messy, real fast. And we saw in this game, you know, Bobby Portis also to leave this game after he got smacked in the face. So I would think he'll be back. But without those two guys, you saw how shallow the rest of this roster is. How many few guys they can really rely on right now?

Serge Abaka, their big addition in the middle of season, not really a factor in this series at all so far, not really getting on the floor in the series at all so far. And the rest of their bench, there's a reason why these guys are not prominent parts of the rotation. So I'm very concerned if Chris Middleton can't play. Like this is, and frankly,

even if he can play, because that's a player who does not have athleticism to spare, he relies on every burst and stop and start he can get. And if you have a sprained knee, it puts all of that movement in jeopardy, much less the fact that they have him guarding Demartoros, in a lot of possessions. They haven't playing a crucial

defensive role, and he'd have to do the same thing in future series if they're going to have a long run. So that's some scary news for the bucks, potentially. Remind me, why did they trade for Serger Baca again?

This is an idea. I think I'm higher on Dante DiVincenzo than the consensus, but just having you watched enough Dante DiVincenzo over the last couple, well, I mean,

he even wasn't playing that much in Sacramento over the last couple weeks of the season. Justin clearly was a fan of Jersey. sure, Rob. That's just going on here. A lot of fistpumps behind the Devangelo. But even like the Devenzo cynics, the Raghu pessimists, like he was an able body who he could play in a playoff series. And so it's just like Sergei Bach has literally one minute over the course of two

games, even though Bobby Portis missed a lot of this game. And he was brought in ostensibly to be in a front court rotation with Lopez and Portis and Janus. And so, I don't know what they were thinking here. Absolutely, but let's also be real. Dante DiVincenzo is not a Chris Middleton safety net. Like, if Chris Middleton is out and Dante DiVinchenzo is replacing him, you're still in a really rough spot. Really rough spot.

Well, I guess the question is not only long term, but like how do we feel about them in this series? Because the Bulls gave them all that they can handle tonight. Do you think like the Bulls could even pull off this series if Middleton can't play? I mean, the thing about the Bulls is that some of the net stuff still applies here, right? Like, Damar DeRosen dropped, he dropped 41 points on 16 made field goals, nine made free throws, i.e. all twos. This was all two pointers.

All 16 of his made field goals were two pointers. Like, you're subsisting on a heavy diet of that of mid-rangers, right? And he's your key creator that way. and they went in tonight and it looked great. But we've all been here with DeRosen. Shit, we was there with them game one, right? And so I think the precarious nature of that being your number one way to generate offense, that makes me, you know, that gives me pause as far as the Bulls.

And who knows, maybe Budenhouser will figure out a way to score points against a defense whose backline is the Vucci main. Well, I wouldn't say that the bucks were the most adaptive defensively either because Derozen scored, I think, 37 of those points before he saw a single double team. Yeah, yeah. You could try it, you know? Like, you could try doubling. You could try forcing the ball to Tristan Thompson and see what happens.

Yeah, let Caruso, much as I love Alex Caruso, let him shoot his freaking corner threes, have fun with that. Yeah, Alex Cruz had a good shooting game. I think it's a perfectly viable strategy to say you are going to, take 15 threes tonight. Yeah, go ahead. And we're going to see what happens. Yeah. I think other than like Frank Vogel, no one rides the extremes like Bud.

Like one minute he's the best coach in the league winning a title of the next he could be fired. Like I really don't know where to put him. It's always one of the others. It's nowhere in the middle. But I don't know, man. The Bulls have been scrappy. They've definitely done enough on the fringes.

Patrick Williams has been pretty good. Caruso, as you mentioned, was really, really good in this one. I wonder if they do have enough stuff, like enough stuff in the middle. enough of those 50-50 balls, enough like hustle in order to like make up on the margins and be able to beat a team that's going to be heavily, heavily, heavily relying on Yonnas going forward. Having said that the Bulls bench has been absolutely atrocious. Like they have five guys and that's about it.

That's again, another team where it's concerning. Like if Vuccivic isn't great, what happens to that particular game? Like they really need Vujovich and Levine and Derozen to all be lights out and to get incredible winning plays from Caruso all game long and for Pat Williams to play four years older than he is and he's done that like he's been pretty steady for them. They need a lot to break

in their favor still because Yannis for as much as we praise the Bulls defense had 33 points in this game was still getting to the rim all the time, was still getting fouled all the time. He was as dominant as you would expect Yonis to be and we know enough about him to know that that doesn't change.

That's just what the Bulls are going to have to contend with every game of this series. Yeah. Bulls haven't had a Levine game yet. You'd expect that if De Rosen does draw attention, that Levine would be free to do a little bit more there. Before we move on, can I make a quality of life proposal regarding the NBA product? Sure.

I don't know where we're going with this, but go ahead. So in the fourth quarter of this Bulls-Bucks game, Drew Holiday blocked Demarder Rosen. As cleanly as I've ever seen a human being block, another human being shot. It was called a foul. It was challenged, overturned, obviously. I kind of think that if a challenge is overturned,

the ref who called it should have to be the one who looks into the lens of the camera and says I was wrong. And he personally apologized to Drew Holiday as a result. Absolutely. Absolutely. You want like a confessional? Yes, that's exactly what I want. Okay.

We want contrition, JV. What the hell? That Catholic upbringing. Acts of contrition, that's right. If there's no guilt, it doesn't count. out. Exactly. All right.

Let's move along now. We got that off of Rob's chest. Big picture, East, Waz, who's the favorite now that Middleton probably out, Celtics are dominating

Sixers somewhere in between there. Man, it's crazy to think, man. It's the Sixers and the Celtics. And that's not to dismiss what Miami's doing, because I think,

I love how they played against Atlanta. They've been, they've been so heat about it, just like, Kyle Lowry's tackling people. He is playing mental mind games with DeAndre Hunter. It's so mean-spirited what he's doing to that young fella. Like, I love what they're doing, the Miami heat of it all.

But again, I worry with a half-court offense, they're super reliant on hero to make stuff happen for them in half-court. And just what he's the type of lunch me he is on defense, I wonder how that balance is going to work for them. So I'm worried about them. But yeah, with the Celtics, I just think the Celtics and the Sixers is crazy as it sounds. You know, the Sixers have the most talent, you know, of anybody left, in my opinion. However, Stock Rivers, some of that talent is wedded to James Hardin.

And we talked about how hard-headed he is about a specific way of playing and how that might transfer in later more difficult series. So, yeah, I think they got the most talent. I just don't think they're going to put it together. in a way that makes sense. But yeah, give me them in Boston as the two if Chris Middleton can't play. Where's the Rob Williams timeline at this point? Somewhere wrapped up

with the Ben Simmons one where it's like maybe he comes back or maybe is realistically targeting game for... Does Rob Williams not qualify for Ewing theory? Is he not prominent a player enough? We're going there. I'm kidding. I love the young fella. He's a good player. No, it feels, the East feels wide open at the moment.

In a, like, I was, as we've talked about, been feeling pretty good about the Bucks all year long. That is contingent on them having three close to or star players. And so without Middleton, I think they go down quite a lot in the competitive standing in the East. So I might be a little bit higher on Miami, but those other three teams, I'm having trouble parsing them, to be honest.

I would say probably just by default, the Celtics might have an inside track at the moment based on not only how well they've played, but the fact that if they win their respective series, Philly and Miami are about to play each other. So, you know, again, one of those teams is going to be disqualified pretty quickly. Yeah, I mean, maybe the computers,

the robots knew that all these injuries were going to happen before they happened, and then the Celtics were going to rise above. What else could the computers tell? Can it tell us the day I'm going to die? Well, maybe Arnold comes back and joins the Celtics. You never know what's going to happen. But yeah, I can't say I'm saying this, but like Celtics look really, really good right now.

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if we get Warrior Celtics in the finals, which would be a really fun finals, by the way. Not the best travel series, though. I don't know if most people want to spend time in Boston and spring. No comment. Tough week, though, for the defending champions in both conferences between Middleton and Devin Booker. That's tough. You talk about Boston. Bay Area.

Ish. Wow. Wow. Not a fan? Yeah. This is Rob's home turf. I'm not. I mean, listen, Oakland is cool.

I've enjoyed myself in Oakland. But again, if you were staying there, you'd be super far from the freaking stadium. In San Francisco, my thing is like, every time I've been there, not a Negro in sight. I'm telling you, not a one. I'm just like, how could a city this populated? There'd be no Negroes anywhere. And maybe it's the area I was in because I was in, like, basically the downtown. area or whatever. It's not. It's not the area.

I mean, okay, so there you go. It's the Bay Area you're in, you know. segregated all the hell. I'm like, God damn, San Francisco. Can I get one? Not even a mixed breed. I couldn't even get a Drizzy Drake type in there. It was just like, who, pure as the driven snow, JV, but yeah.

On the plus side, they'll just hand you like a fleece vest when you show up at the airport. So you got that looking for it, look for it to last. Final zip up. All right. Let's wrap it there. We'll be back Wednesday night next week. We're on a nighttime schedule now.

So get your Cavassier, get your Hennessy, perhaps, and join us for a little... No free ads. No free ads. Any time of the day, I'll give them a free ad. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely for staying up late with us on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We're also chilling in the background. We'll be back next week.

We'll see it.