The Ringer NBA Show - Celtics Palooza With Jackie MacMullan | Real Ones

Episode Date: January 24, 2022

Logan is joined by The Ringer’s Jackie MacMullan to talk about the Celtics' past, present, and future, including the team’s issues holding onto talent, how Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum can play together, and her favorite stories about Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, and more. Host: Logan Murdock Guest: Jackie MacMullan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ring Your Wrestling show is getting you closer to all things pro wrestling. The Masked Show with David and Kaz drops every Thursday on the feed, along with the new show hosted by pro wrestling superfan Evan Mack called MacMania. Plus, hear instant reactions to all the biggest WWE pay-per-view events with their post-paperview shows. Check out The Ring Your Wrestling Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here. Raj is not in today.

But we have a very, very special guest for our Celtics Paloosa. edition of ruins. I'm very honored for this. It's been a long time coming. We have Jackie Mack on the program. Hi, Jackie. It's been a long time. I'm so happy to have you on. How you doing? Thank you, Logan. It's a pleasure to be with you. I'm sorry I've missed Raja, but maybe another time, huh? Maybe another time. It's, you know, we've been talking about this for a long time. I want to get you on the pod, but we're here to talk about the Celtics. And one of the things that was funny, I came to you before the pod, Like, oh, man, Jason Tatum scored 51 points. This is great.

This is great for the league. This is amazing. This is awesome. This is fantastic. And then you had it. You said something about consistency, and that I think that is the, that's what colors the whole, the whole season for the Celtics is a lack of consistency and things of that nature. What's going on with the Celtics now? They're 24 and 24.

What gives right now, Jackie? Logan, that's, that's who they are. You know, at some point, you just have to look at it and say, this is who we are. I think their record over the last two seasons, if you go back, is about 500. They're a 500 team. They're a flawed team. They have a transcendent talent in Jason Tatum. I mean, he's remarkable.

He's, you know, they'd be crazy to trade him and they won't. I mean, they're building around him. And they, the number two, Jalen Brown is also a very talented guy. They've got to learn to play together better. they don't play well together. They don't move the ball particularly well together. You know, earlier in the year, there was some defensive issues. They've cleaned some of those up.

I mean, they're a top 10 defensive team now. I think even top six or seven. The problem is they can't score. They don't move the ball. And they can't close out games, most importantly. And you're not going anywhere in this league if you can't close out games. I believe they're down the bottom or at the bottom of the league in terms of closing out basketball games. So we can go a hundred different ways here.

Their offensive rating at the time puts them 22nd in the league. So you were just talking about the win over the Wizards where Tatum drops 51. He's been having, you know, he's having a career low year shooting from the three-point line. He's at around 32%. That's after adding the numbers he just got against the Wizards, which were good. And so this team, they don't have three-point shooting. Horford early in the year, very early in the year. He would, you know, they'd kick it around.

they double Tatum, kick it back out to Horfidy, knock it down. He's shooting a career low, 28.4% from the three-point line. Tatum is at a career low, around 32%. We know he's better than that, and he will be. Marcus Smart is shooting around 30% from the three-point line. That's not a career low, but it's the worst he's been in about four or five seasons. So you could see the problems here. They need a shooter, but most importantly, in my mind, they need a point guard,

A real point guard. A God bless Ricky Rubio who's out with the tourney ACL. A Ricky Rubio type veteran that moves the ball, keeps it moving, gets it to you in the exact spot where you want it and isn't worried about scoring. A Ricky Rubio type guy, those are some of their needs. And you talk about their needs and you talked about the point guard position. But I think that when I look at the Celtics, and this is something that me and Rajah talked about is they're such a young team. But I don't see the leadership on them. this team. When I do see a market smart as a guy and I and I see market smart as a guy that will speak up, but you know, in covering the Golden S.A. Warriors and being around teams like that, you know, I've seen a Draymond Green that can work when you have a guy that might not necessarily be the star, be the leader, but I don't see a leader on the team that commands this type of respect on this roster, whether it's coach, coach M.A. Udocha or anybody on this team, where can they find their leadership sort of And do you think that that is more of a symptom of why they're bad?

Because when you see, it's one thing for the coach to say, oh, I'm disappointed in the team. But I think that with these guys, they're so young that they haven't had enough experience in the league that can carry them into wins down the stretch and things like that. What do you think that is there a move that they can make to do anything? What can they do? Well, you know what? I'm going to push back on what you just said because they are young. There's no question. I mean, if we're talking about the core, the core to me is Marcus Smart, Jason Tatum,

Well, let's put Marcus Smart last. Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, and Marcus Smart is, in essence, your core, in my opinion. Those guys have been to the conference finals. I mean, the problem was they went when they were so young, and they got used to being there. And what they didn't realize was they weren't the only reason they got there, you know? Say what you want about Kyrie Irvin and Boston fans like to. Guys had otherworldly talent. Gordon Haywood, again, Boston fans, say what you want about him.

but when he walked away from your franchise, your ball movement stopped, you stopped having a big guard that can defend on the perimeter for you? These guys mattered. Vintage Al Horford as opposed to an aging Al Horford that you have now was part of that. So these guys started to think, oh, well, it's easy to get here. Well, you know what? It's not. It's not easy to get there. And so your point about leadership is absolutely correct.

If we're talking about the step back larger picture of the Boston Celtics, I think, think they're in trouble. I just don't see, I don't see when the game is on the line. So we could talk about the Washington game we want or we could talk about the Portland game, where Portland went to a zone. That's all they did. It was a zone, Logan. And that Celtics missed their last 10 shots. They didn't score for over seven minutes. And what happens is there's this urgency about this Boston team. Too little too late. Like they get to the end of the game and they have all this urgency, but you have to have urgency. If you're going to be a playoff team, a contending team, you have to have urgency in the second quarter when a team rips off 10 in a row

against you. You've got to fight back then. The urgency has to be there all the time. And it isn't with this team. And the urgency is a problem. And finishing games, as I mentioned before, is a major problem. And that does all point to leadership. And Marcus likes to be the leader. He likes to get in their faces. He was doing the tough love thing before the Washington game, telling him how much he loves them and how much he's proud of them and all that. And But they've been hearing Marcus's voice for a while, and sometimes it gets old. It's a bad rally effect, huh? It can be.

It can be. You hear the voice and the yelling and where it kind of tune out. Right. And I don't want to suggest that Marcus Smart is why they struggle because Marcus Smart is both the problem and the solution pretty much every minute of his life. Like, he's a guy that any contending team would want because he's going to make a defensive play at the end of a game or during a game that you're going to go, oh, my God. Marcus Smart's one of those guys that every game he does something. you go, wow. I was there when he goaded James Hardin

to two offensive fouls when he was playing with the Houston Rockets and literally stole the game from the Rockets who were a better team at that time. So I have great respect and affection for Marcus Smart. Jason Tatum's a young guy. He doesn't strike me as he's not a killer. Let's get in people's faces. Jalen Brown, I think, likes to lead,

likes to express things. But there's too many, too many, voice is all in the mix and not one voice that's saying, come on, let's do this. And you have a young coach, a rookie coach. He's been on the bench. He's been in the league a while, but he's still a rookie head coach. And everyone will tell you that going from that assistant seat to the head seat is a big transition. So I don't see this team doing anything this year. And I wouldn't be surprised, Logan, if the Celtics front office and the ownership says, you know what, we're in the luxury tax. Let's get below the luxury tax. This is a lost year. let's decide at the end of the year, all right, I'm pretty sure they're going to build around those two still, Tatum and Brown. Let's decide how we build from there. Is Marcus Smart a trade piece? So you ask me, what will they do? They need a shooter. They need a three-point shooter. They need a point guard. I just really think, and I don't hear them ever say that, but that's what I think they need. And so Schrooter, you know, they're paying Schrooter almost $6 million. He's a bargain. He has good

numbers, but he's part of the problem, frankly. And it's, look, he's playing for a contract. Now, right? He is. Played for contract. He's playing for numbers. The ball sticks in his hands. Ball movement.

I want ball movement, the guy that makes the extra pass. So people, you know, some of the people in Boston, clamming for Isaiah Thomas, because what a wonderful, you know, short but brilliant period. He had, right. Yeah. But he's not what they need. He's not what they need either. They don't need another score.

They need someone that can distribute the ball and help the shooters they have. maximize the abilities of those two guys. And Horford, you know, Horford, like I said, was doing it earlier. He's, you know, they kick it back out to him. The teams are leaving him alone for threes and everyone's going to play them zone because there's no shooters. I mean, Neesmith, you know, they drafted him thinking he was going to be the guy. He can't get off the bench.

He shoots 25% from the three point line. He's lost his confidence. I, you asked me what I would do. I would play him more. You know, Pritch, Pritchard was buried at the end of the bench. and then had to play because of COVID stuff. And he got a little run in, and he got his confidence back. And now he's part of the rotation again, and he's helped them a bit, you know.

It's funny. I want to go back to what something you said about getting it too early and just the overall. And I think that made me think about when I look at the Celtics. Now, they have, they drafted really well. Danny Ains got, he hit on Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. But there was so much turnover. Talk about Gordon Hayward leaving, Kyrie leaving. Yeah.

Brad Stevens leaving the bench, which I don't think a lot of people put enough stock into. Like that is a big deal when you're seeing someone every day and then you put a whole other new guy into the fault. How are we not giving enough, are we not giving enough respect to the fact that this team has had so much turnover? Because I feel like in hindsight, when we see this team, when we see, when we look back at this group, it would, it could, on the one hand, it could be, oh, it was a disaster. On another hand, it looks like it could be, this is the optimism in me. me showing a team right before the run because it needs to be, the roster has holes in it. I look at their front court.

I look at their, like you said, your point guard, you have a guy like Schroeder playing for a contract. What has led to so much of the turnover for someone like me who was on the West Coast who doesn't see as much from the Boston angle? What has led to so much of that turnover in hindsight? Well, it's a good question. And, you know, one thing you've, when you were listening, all the turnover, remember, Al Horford left.

Yeah. Al Horford left. He left for the Sixers. And Al Horford was supposed to be a big part of what they were going to do, and he left. Why did he leave? Why did Gordon Haywood feel so compelled to go to the Charlotte Hornets instead of staying with the Celtics? And I think there were some, how am I going to phrase this, maybe misunderstandings about

what was promised or expected of those players. You know, I think Gordon Hayward thought he was going to have a different role. Now, his injury was catastrophic. It changed everything. That's nobody's fault. That's nobody's fault. But he came back. The team had changed somewhat.

And now he's the third option on this team. But I don't think they ever made him feel like a valued, in my opinion, just in talking to people around Gordon Hayward and Gordon Hayward himself, I don't think he felt as valued as he probably should have. And people in the city were, you know, in the city where he took him a while to come back from that injury. He wasn't quite the same. And people just completely undervalued. how important he was to them. And look, the Kyrie Irving thing.

How big was that first season, the 2017-18 season when they were all, they bawled out in preseason that year. I remember it was, and then you have the Gordon Hayward injury, but I think that speaks to how good they were because they were one of the top teams

in the Eastern Conference. And then you have a, then you have a Kyrie injury that, that when he gets injured, roles are automatically shifted. Tatum has the big year. Then Jaylen, you know, is showing promise.

How big was that season when you have guys, when you have expectations of what your roles are going to be. And then, you know, Terry Rozier has a great year. But then how big was that season? See, there's another example. Terry Rozier was having a great year and you knew you weren't going to keep him. That, man, you got to trade him and get something for him at the deadline. I mean, look at what Terry Rozier is doing for the Charlotte Horse.

So they were, and you talk about drafting. There were some hits, but there were a lot of misses, a lot of misses. And, you know, you go look at their roster now. And some of the guys that are gone, it just, it hasn't, you know, I don't think the last three or four years have been very good in terms of the front office for Boston, honestly. And, you know, Tatum, that was a brilliant thing. You pick them, you know, you get the, you swindle the pick out of the sixes for the first round pick. But, you know, everyone made a big deal about the trade for, let's go all the way back. You move Garnett and Pearson, you get all these first round, this plethora of first round picks from the Brooklyn Nets and like, you know, all this. And the Brooklyn Nets are in ruins and the Celtics fleece them. And now here we are. The Brooklyn Nets are a team that's companion for the championship. And the Celtics are like, are like Jomey's beloved Lakers, just, you know, in the muck, mediocrity. Not to mention the Celtics had a chance at Kevin.

And they see Kevin. Yeah. And I think they, you know, they gave a good effort there. The problem, Boston has always had the same problem. It's been a very difficult free agent destination forever. And that's always been true. And, you know, I think. Kyrie leaving with some dominoes that, you know, and I, and I was there for that.

We can talk about that. Let's talk about that. Yeah, let's talk about that. I was in the weeds for that. You know, one day he was saying, I want to stay here forever if you'll have me, and then he's gone. And that's as much to do with just Kyrie. You know, I'll say this about Karee. He believes in himself. He's a independent thinker. He's a different kind of thinker. He doesn't care what anybody thinks. And he talks a lot. about basketball. He does not want basketball to identify him. He doesn't want that to be the only, you know, really.

And he means it. People don't believe it. He means it. I'm telling you, he does. And I mean, I think he's proven that by this recent stand he's taken regarding vaccination status. He's not kidding. Like, he sees other things in the world.

So what happened there? You know, we watched it unfold and all of a sudden, like he was there. And then all of a sudden, you're like, he's not. stain. And that just, and then they panicked, in my opinion, panicked and signed Kimba Walker to that deal. You know, Jordan, Jordan loves Kimba Walker. Kimba Walker wears his shoes, okay? And he decided, I'm not paying you. I'm not paying you max money. I'm not going to pay you the max money because I think they should have done a little more of their due diligence on Kemba Walker's health. Lots of things. So there's lots of things you can go back and look at and say, you know,

because Kemba, Kimba, I meant when he was there. very, you know, he was such a breath of fresh air. He was so positive. And he's telling me, I'm just a placeholder here for these two young guys. I just want to help them get to where they're going and all that. And then by the end, you know, he felt betrayed by the Celtics. I don't know why. You know, there's just a lot of that. A lot of, to me, issues of communication between what these players expected and what actually happened with them. So a lot of people walked out that door, you know, think about it, a lot of them. And that speaks to, and obviously, we know the types of people that walked out of the door.

But when I look at Boston, I see a revolving door of really good players who have, you know, it was a big deal when Gordon Hayward went to Boston. It was a big deal when Kyrie went to Boston. It was a big deal when Horford went to Boston. And when you see a revolving door, you can make,

you can blame the players, but at some point, and I'm not in there like you are, but at some point you're going to have to blame the organization and, you know, and I don't, what, and that leads to my question that I had about,

you know, the Danny Aange era. When you look at the Danny Aange era, what do you think about? Because early on, obviously, you have the big three in Boston, you have KG, you have all these people. And then you have the trade. And this was hailed as the big thing. Oklahoma City is going through that right now, just collecting assets and collecting assets. It's what you do with those assets? But when you look back on the Danny Aange era, what do you think? Well, I mean, the guy won him a championship. It's not easy to win a championship. And he won him one. Should they have one more? Yes. but Kevin Garnett got hurt. Kevin Garnett got hurt. He wrecked his knee.

We can debate the Kevin Kendrick Perkins trade. A lot of people like to point to that as a reason why. But the fact that I saw the numbers. Shaquille O'Neill was playing for the Boston Celtics at that time. And their plus differential with Shaq on the floor was unbelievable. And then Shaq has this Achilles injury that ends his career, you know? Well, that's what happens with players of that. I think we're seeing that with the Lakers.

now, we're not going to talk about that right now, but you see that when older teams get, get older, they want older guys who know systems that can be being right. But the consequences, they get hurt and their bodies aren't the same. And that was a major, major blow to them. So, I think Danny was a true guy. I think he was a guy that people were wary of dealing with, because he seemed to always come out on top. I think his draft history near the end was spotty. There seemed to be a reluctance at times to me to bring in shooters. I never understood. understood that. I just thought there were times that players were available. And maybe, maybe what I don't know is maybe those players didn't want to come. I'm not privy to that.

I don't know that. But I think near the end, the Kyrie thing killed them. I mean, they went all in on Kyrie. Who wouldn't? You know, he wanted out of Cleary. His talent is phenomenal. Yeah, who wouldn't? They went in all in on it and, and it all blew up. And on paper won the deal, though. On paper, if you look at the deal, they won the deal. I think if you look at it, They traded straight up right after that season. Isaiah Thomas is not who he is. Immediately is filling the effects of that injury and not getting surgery or whatever the case may be. You're seeing that.

They won the deal. It was just a lot of bad luck for the Celtics. Well, it just, you know, Kyrie, for whatever reason, that didn't work. Colin Sexton was part of that deal, though, too. Remember, that draft pick was turned into be Colin Sexton. So not so bad. But anyway, they, so Kyrie leaving, then all the dominoes start to fall. Then things start to change, you know.

but you still have these two great young players and you've got to figure out a way to make them play more effectively together. That is the bottom line for me. I wouldn't trade either Jason Tatum or Jalen Brown. I've said it over and over and I know fans want one or the other. I mean, I think everybody, there's no way

they're trading Jason Tatum. And I don't believe they're going to trade Jalen Brown either. And Jalen Brown's an interesting guy. He's, you know, he's gotten better each year, but he has trouble. He's, when you, watch him play, there's a little bit too much for me anyway. If head down, go to the basket, he's not a great passer. He really isn't. He struggles passing the ball. He turns the ball over

a lot. It's a problem. Again. That seems like a symptom of being young, though, right? Because I know Kevin was a bad passer going early on in his career. And I think that changes as you get older, though, right? When you know the offensive better and the game slows down. Am I wrong? Because I'm not around. I don't know. I think, I think Tatum's a pretty good passer, you know? And he's younger than Jalen. So sometimes it's just knowing, you know, basketball vision or however you want to describe it. And so those two guys need to figure out a way to play together. Again, I point to the point guard and finding a veteran point guard that can keep the ball moving.

You know, those kind of things. But there's just a bigger malaise with this team that frustrates the whole fan base. They don't play hard all the time. They just don't. They have these lapses that are just confounding. And I don't know what the answer is for that. But it's to me the most concerning thing of all because talent is one thing, cohesiveness playing together, a commitment to what you're supposed to be doing that you know is right.

A killer instinct. Closing out games. Those are bigger issues that I don't know, man. It's just interesting when I hear a narrative of them leaving because it's always coming from one source. It's always national media that's saying, oh, we need to break them up. we need to do all these things. When I, you know, when I was researching for this pot, you know, I see a lot. Everyone in Boston says, no, keep them together.

Everyone who I know is in the know, like Oji, Gary Washburn, who we both love. Yeah, yep. But why do you, where is that narrative coming from? I have my own opinion, which is, I feel like we're in a star culture league where as soon as something doesn't go right, we need to make a move. We need to do these things. We need to do these. And when I see them, they're so young.

Why would you trade them? What would be good of training them? Just make the team better around them is what I would think. Why do you think there is the national spotlight of, hey, break these guys up immediately? And then now it's when you go locally, it's Boston. Well, I think it's if you're watching them play and you're a national media person, you watch them play and you're like, they don't fit very well together. They don't make each other better, right?

That's the whole idea, make each other better. And they don't do that consistently. don't. What happens is when the game gets, you know, they start falling behind, both of them are like, all right, I'm going to go to the bat. I'm going to do this. I'm going to take care of a hero ball. It's classic hero ball. I'm going to shoot this, you know, 32 foot three pointer over three guys. You know, there's a lack of recognition in times of how you get back into a game and get the best shot you possibly can. I go back to it again. How do you do that by keeping the ball moving? You cover the golden state warriors. You know what I'm talking about. You keep the ball moving. The ball doesn't stick. Keep moving. Too much ISO in the league right now, Jackie. Too much ISO in the league. I agree. Too much ISO pick and roll. So I think the problem is, how do you get Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown to look at each other and say, all right, I'm going to figure out a way to make you better?

We can make each other better. Let's do that. And I don't think, see, I think the thing that's unfair with these two guys and they're feeling it. I know they're feeling it. I know the whole team is they, you know, I think Marcus Smart just said the other day, it's us against the world. No one believes in us. No one. And he has to understand why people are frustrated because they play that game in Portland and they should win that game.

It's obvious they should win that game. And they don't. And you know what's even worse? You're watching it. I happen to be watching it. And I'm like, they're not going to win this game. And they're up six points. But I just, I've seen it too many times.

I know they're not. And they stopped doing the things that got them the lead in the first place. Again, playing good defense, getting up in people's grills, scoring off of other teams' turnovers, all of those. things. I mean, I'll give you some numbers if you want. I mean, go ahead, go ahead. Offensive rating, number 22. Their assist percentage, 20th in the league. Three-point shooting, 22nd in the league. Those numbers assist a turnover ratio. 21. I mean, what does that tell you? The ball isn't moving the way it should be. Now, it's just sharing the ball. This question is either going to make Jomey cry or it's going to make him

jump for joy. But it's a Jason Tatum question. And it's, I don't like to do the internet questions and things like that, but when I see a Boston Celtic wearing a Lakers jersey, and I'm not saying you're going to go to the Lakers, but I'm asking, when you see that, that gives Boston, you're in there,

that gives Boston some level of what, what are you doing? You know, this is from, this is a fan base that sees, um, that, you know,

that, that rivalry, you, we both know about that robbery. Jerry West did not want to wear green. That it's, it's, it's that serious.

I'm not asking if he's going to the, What I'm asking, though, is what is the long-term viability of Jason Tatum and Boston in general when you see a guy that is Boston is a fan base that cries out for loyalty, which is why the victory offer Kyrie is so is what it is. What is that? By the way, Kyrie was a free agent. See, here's the thing. Kyrie Irvin didn't force his way out of Boston like you did in Cleveland. He was a free agent. He was free to go.

But I think what I think that says to a point when I look at it. at history, the Celtics won the majority of their titles when there wasn't free agency, right? Where there were guys that were, it wasn't free agency in the way that it is now. And you see guys that because of the circumstance stayed for 10 years. Robert Parrish was there for a whole decade. Larry Bird was there for a whole decade. And then before that, whole career. And then you get to love these guys. And it's a different relationship that you have with these guys, even going back, the Red Hourback, Boston Celtics. But I think now it's a different era. And, you know, Boston is, like I said, loyalty. But back to Jason Tatum, in this new era where

there are guys that, you know, players have more power than they've ever had before. They've earned that power, collectively bargain power. But where do you see him going? We're not going, but where do you, do you see him being that lifelong Celtic? Because it's hard to see him put on a Lakers jersey and then, and not ask questions. Yeah, so I can't answer that. I think the bigger concern for the Celtics should be Jalen Brown because his contract's up first. I would be more concerned about what Jalen Brown's doing than Jason Tatum at the moment. They're not trading Jason Tatum. I don't think they're trading Jalen Brown either.

I guess unless, and there's no, this is pure speculation. I'm not saying this is going to happen. But at some point Jalen Brown says, you know what? I'm not staying here. I want to move on, you know? Now that hasn't happened. That hasn't happened and it may never happen. But if I'm the Celtics, I'd be more concerned about Jalen Brown first than I would.

would Tatum because he's the one that's that's coming up first. And he's the one that's clearly number two. Jason's number one. Jalen's number two. And so, you know, I don't see why I think the Celtics have done everything they can for Jason Tatum. I don't think, I don't know what else. I don't know what else they could possibly do for him. He plays tons of minutes. He's featured in every ad. He's, you know, they've promoted him for every award. I mean, I, I, I, I, I, you know, I don't know what else they could do for Jason Tatum. And I don't get any sense that Jason Tatum is looking elsewhere. But you know what?

If this keeps happening and the scrutiny and the criticism, it's hard, man. If you're him, you're like, what do you want me to do? I just drop 51 on the Wizards and my boy Bradley Beale, you know? And that's the thing about young players is their young players are a lot more thin skin than they used to be. I'll tell you that. I always say this, though. I think when you talk about Jalen, I covered him in California. a little bit in the Bay Area.

And it seems like everywhere he's gone. He's always played under the radar, right? He went to public school and Georgia, then went to, I say public school because public school basketball, you know this, takes a backseat to private and in the prep schools and things like that. And so goes there, then goes to Cal, which is not necessarily, this is a great, obviously a great school, but they don't care about basketball like that. Then he goes to where he's a number two to Ivan Rab, who is.

from Oakland at the time. And then he goes to Boston where he is probably thinks and rightfully so thinks this. He has number one talent because he's scoring also scoring 46 and 51. But you go to, then you see Jason Tatum getting all the ads and you see him being a number one. I don't have any speculation. Obviously, I'm not in Boston. But there is a world where I see him no saying like, no, I want to be number one because I earned that. I worked for that.

I am a number one. And in the same way that a, I see his career arc being similar with Jimmy Butler, where he goes like, hey, no, I am a number one and I should be treated as such. And I can lead a team in all of those things. So I don't know. I think, I think if I were to say, I think Jaylan is more likely to leave than Jason. Am I wrong in thinking something like that? No, I don't think so.

I mean, I don't disagree with that at all because, but that doesn't mean either one of them has to leave. It's just going to be interesting to see what happens. But here's, if you're the Celtics, all right, you get some free, you have this, this cat money. You can make a deal. And you want Anthony Davis. And Anthony Davis's father's like, over my dead body. Like, my son is never going. Never, never, ever going there.

And so Kevin Durant, you make your pitch. And he's like, yeah, this was good. I met Tom Brady. But yeah, I'm not coming. So you have to do it. You have to do it through the draft. You've got to draft the right people and then add pieces around it to make it work. Like, this Boston is not L.A.

It never has been, and it never will be in terms of a free estimation. It's not New York. It's 14 degrees out here right now. 14 degrees today. You know what it is out here, Jackie, not to, you know, you know what out here in the Bay Area? It's 65 right now. It was beautiful. I was wearing shorts, yes.

So in the West Coast, yeah. I see why Kevin made his decision is all I'm saying. Yeah. So this is what, you know, so it's a unique situation, but the Celtics have this great history. You know, and it's funny, the fascination with New York to me is so interesting because they've just haven't been relevant for so long. But because it's Madison Square Garden and it's New York City, they're always going to be relevant. At least they think they are. I don't know if you know this. People want clout and attention. And you get a lot of that if you go to the Knicks or go to New York more than you would if you go to Bouston.

But you also get a lot of scrutiny. And you better be prepared for that because it comes with it. You know, like Zion, Zion might as well just like, I mean, it's clear. Just pack up and go to go to. Yeah. I mean, it's clear that that would work for him. But the scrutiny, he better be ready for. Ask Julius Randall about it.

Ask Julius Randall about the scrutiny. I do feel like, what about in Boston? I do feel like there is a, I think the difference between Boston versus in L.A. and versus in New York and versus the Chicago. is there's no, at least for a basketball player, there's no outside flair. When you're an opposing player and you see this, they say, oh, I want to go to Madison Square Garden and I want to ball out, right? I want to do all these things.

And I circle this on the calendar. There's no circling on this on the calendar for opposing, at least opposing superstars. Oh, I'm going to go playing Boston. This is something that I want to do. And so I think every time you see that from an opposing player, it's all. always, oh, man, I can play on Madison Square Garden, have this feeling every night. And once they get there, they're like, oh, shit, well, I got to, it's every night. But I do think in Boston, there's a different type of scrutiny from a local level, right?

Where it's, there's so up and down, there's like, oh, man, we got to get, that you have to be good. You have to do these things that a Jason Tatum might feel, but maybe a Kevin might not feel, so he'll take a meeting. Is that, is there any credence to that? This is a Westcoaster. I don't want to say too much. I always say Boston and Philly are the same. Boston and Philly are these gritty, lunch pail, blue-collar towns that appreciate their athletes performing in that manner.

And if, you know, ask Julius Irvin, you know, ask Alan Iverson about when they're with you, what it's like to have a provincial town like Boston and Philly. Like when Boston is with you, man, it's the greatest thing ever. And I will say this about Boston. they're fans. They're knowledgeable, incredibly knowledgeable.

They don't show up in the second quarter or the third quarter, Logan. They show up like two hours before the game to watch Jason Tatum warm up. When they yell at a ref, they don't get... They don't yell, hey, ref, you suck.

They yell, hey, Daryl Garrison's son, Ronnie Garrison, you suck. I mean, they... You know what I'm saying? These guys know they've spent... It's been passed down through generations. This is a... It's a knowledgeable fan base.

I feel the same way about Philly. And so, but yeah, are they in the shadow of New York, which is hilarious because the Nix aren't good people. Hello, they're not. And they made a lot of interesting, I think a lot of questionable transactions themselves. They're always trying, you know, because they're fan base. Talk about difficult. Yikes. They're always trying to, you know, like they took on Kemba.

They shouldn't have taken on Kemba any more than the Celtics should have. Shouldn't have done it. It's, it's New York's ego. New York's ego thinks they can help out anything. You know, I was at the Celtics Knicks game. I got to share this. My son moved to New York. So my son had never been to Madison Square Garden.

So for Christmas, I got him Celtics Nix tickets. Let's go. We'll go. You'll go to Madison Square Ground. This will be good. So we go into the game. We're sitting, we have good seats. We're sitting really good seats.

And behind us, there's a bunch of season ticket holders. And RJ Barrett's having a bad game. You know, RJ looked like he was playing with two cinderbox on each lake. You know, no lift. He's really struggling. He's having a tough game, and they're like, oh, my God, Tibbs. Take him out, man. Take RJ Barrett.

They're just killing R.J. Barry. It's having a really tough game. So the Celtics are winning, and then they're losing, and the Knicks are the same, right? They're just as bad, so one team's ahead and the other team's ahead and whatever. So it gets down at the end of the game, and it looks like the Celtics are going to win. Tatum hits a big shot. And then R.J. Barrett, maybe you saw this. Maybe you didn't.

It was a few weeks ago. He takes his falling, like out of bounds. Three point bank shot at the end of the game. And they win the game. And these guys behind us... Was that the Fournier game? You guys are at the Fournier game? Yeah, right.

We were at that game. So these guys behind us are going crazy. Now, these are the guys who's just destroying R.J. Barrett five minutes ago. And we're walking out. And these same guys are chanting, R.J. Barrett. And I'm like, this is just crazy, man. Crazy. It's like...

We can go off on this tangent because it's like when the Yankees go to the A's games. the Yankees come to town. Everybody, it's bringing up old wounds because the A's are like the Yankees farm system. It seemed like back in the day. But it's like that, right? Where they expect so much greatness that it kills them, you know, when they don't, when they're just mediocre. And it's okay sometimes just be mediocre because you're building something. But I guess I'm going off on a tangent.

But one of the biggest point is what I see between New York and Boston. I think people forget that like even Kevin Garnett, he didn't want to he wanted to first he wanted to go to the Lakers people forget that he wanted to go play with Kobe he wanted that it just didn't happen for him but like boss is a city where it's one of those things

we just need to get you here just come here and we'll try to figure it out type thing um yeah Garnett that was huge once garnett got there he was all in he's one of the greatest leaders I've ever seen bar none one of the greatest leads I've ever seen what's your best

KG Stewart was the best KG Stewart was the best KG to her. Well, KG. We got off on the wrong foot, you know, because he came in and he's a really, really intense guy. And before games, I mean, I hadn't been around

him that much. So before games, everybody, all of a sudden, like, you know, I used to go in pregame, it used to be different. You'd go into a locker and pregame. Everybody was around. You know, you could talk to guys before the game. That never happens now. But so I'd go in pregame and, like, everybody was gone.

I'm like, where is everybody? And there's Garnett. like banging his head against the locker and I'm like what the hell is going on with him. I still need to get my quote though. So right. So I go up and I try to talk to him and he's like looking at me like how dare you talk to me. You know, he's like, because he's in his whatever he's doing, this feverish pitch that he gets himself into. And he kind of was like giving me crap and I'm like, hey dude, I'm asking a question. That's all.

He's like, you know, get the bleep away. And I was like, hey man, I've been here before you. I'll be here after you. I was mad. you know like yeah so anyway i'd go stomping off and then they kind of got us back together and then ray allen like said to me oh no yeah before the game you can't go near him that's why the locker is always empty we all just wherever he goes we run away from we just go somewhere else so anyway so we kind of like made our piece but then i was i wanted to do a story on him because he was that year he was

having trouble with his knee and people thought he was done you know people are like uh he's never he's done he's never going to be the same so i'm trying to get him to talk to me and he just won't You know, we didn't talk to anybody, really. So finally I said to him, hey, listen, I'm doing this story with or without you, and I'm just going to tell you right now. The story I have so far is everybody thinks you're done. He's like, I'm not done. I go, I don't think you are either. I'm just telling you, this is what I got.

And if you don't talk to me, man, this is all I got. So he finally agreed to talk to me. But he made me fly to Chicago to do it. He made me fly to Chicago on the road game. And I never since then, we've been great. have great respect for him as a competitor. He just was such a team player. He was a guy that really honest to God didn't care if he scored. I swear to God, he did not care. He just wanted to win. He wanted them to win the championship. He could feel it the minute he got there that they had

what they needed. And in fact, he was so hyped up before games. Doc Rivers used to tell me, I never ran a play for him the first six minutes because if I did, he was going to shatter the backboard because he was just so hyped up to start the game. And you know, Paul Pierce was the MVP, of those 2008 finals, deservedly so. He was incredible during that run. But I'm telling you, it was Kevin Garnett that changed the culture, that changed that whole locker room, that changed everything. People forget that Paul Pierce was...

The year before, they were one of the worst teams in the lead. People forget that. The year before, they won that O-A title. They were one of the worst teams in the league. They almost traded Paul Pierce like half a dozen times. They tried to trade him for the rights to Chris Paul. Dan Ains had a thing for Chris Paul, and they were going to trade Pierce for the rights to Chris Ball.

It didn't go through. In fact, the Boston Globe at the time where I worked had two ads running the next day, one with the New Look Celtics and then one with Paul Pierce featured in the ads. They had a pre-deft and a post-grap, two different ads. Yeah, that's how close it was. I do. Okay, so let's compare notes, right? Because I want to, I want to, every time we get on the phone,

I always want to ask you and ask you questions about the 80s Celtics and all the, and the Celtics back in the day. But from a coverage standpoint, Because I want to compare notes on eras and how things were done. What was it like covering a team like that? Because, you know, with the, obviously, the Warriors are the best PR staff in the league currently. And maybe the last, the last of the moment. Ritter.

Shout out to Raymond, the best. He's awesome. Shout out to Raymond Ritter, yes. But what I'm asking is like, what was it like covering the Boston Celtics? And this is selfish for me because I'm a Lakers fan, was a Lakers fan growing up. What was it like covering that rivalry when you do have all this coverage and all these things? And you can actually get access to people. You can actually talk to Larry Bird, no matter who you were, right?

You could just, if you see him, he's going to give you a quote or talk to you about something. What was it like covering that specific rivalry during that specific time in a newspaper? It was very different. The first thing is practices were open. You could go to practice and watch the whole practice. And I was so young when I was covering, I was in my 20s. and so fearful of missing something, I would show up two hours before practice

see if it started. And that's how I got to know, that's how I got to know Larry Bird and Kevin McHale and those guys because they were already there, they were already shooting, they were already doing work. And even if you didn't ask a question,

they saw you were there. You know, I remember asking, when I did the first book I did with Bird, you know, we got pretty far away to it. And then one night I said to him, why did you choose me to do this? Like, I was so shocked when they asked me. I couldn't believe it.

And he said, said, yeah, you put in the work, you know. We were there early. You were there early. Yeah. So, but now, of course, even if you do that, no one ever knows because you're not anywhere near the, you know, practices are closed. You get a window like after practice, 15 minutes. It's a, you know, it's a scrum around one guy. I mean, we used to go early, stay late. You could grab guys off to the side. You could ask them questions. You could talk to them out in the parking lot. And so we flew commercially. So if the, if the team was on a road trip and they, they had a game and. Milwaukee that went to overtime and they had a 7 a.m. flight the next morning, you know, if you were smart, you didn't change your flight to a later one. You got up just like they did and you got on that 7 a.m. flight because they noticed. They noticed. So we, I think that persistence from a, like a younger perspective, I think that still works. I was listening to you on on Simmons's pod talking about that. I, I think, I will just say, I think that's still hope.

You know, I think that all, it's the same characteristics. If, if, I think it's the same characteristics just worked back then, they work now. You wait out a player, they still see that. Like, it doesn't, just don't, if you do the same thing, you'll be good. What was it like going into the, what was it like covering a game in the garden? Like, like, during the finals during that time, it's an older arena, it's louder, just it's not even a basketball arena, it's a hockey arena. What was it like from a coverage standpoint covering those games?

Well, the big problem was if you got to June, you had to worry about the ice melting, you know, in case, like the ice was under the floor. So that, you know, I remember one game, it wasn't in June, though. It was a regular season game. They were playing the Atlanta Hawks, and they had to cancel the game because all the moisture from the ice, you know, and during the finals by then, they would often take the ice off. But that place was, the old garden was dirty. Like when the circus went, came to town over Christmas, you'd go back in for a game two weeks.

You know, the Celtics would always go on the road over Christmas because it'd have either the ice capades or and or the circus. And you'd come back in and it smelled like elephant poop. You know what I mean? Like it was just, it was nothing, there was nothing state of the art about it. But I loved it. You got to know the guys that put down the floor. I mean, the garden floor was literally squares of parquets that they had stacked up in the back and they literally came out and put them down.

There were dead spots on the floor and you got to know where the dead spots were if you'd played there a bunch of times. It was an incredible atmosphere because it was always sold out, always, not sometimes, always. And the fans were there early and they were raucous. sometimes they were over the top, horrible, honestly. Bad fans in terms of opponents. I didn't always love what I heard coming out. How was a young Bill Simmons there?

He was too young. I never saw him. I swear to God, he was younger to me, and I didn't see him around much, you know? And whenever I did see him, was so incredibly respectful, to be honest, you know. And he was a guy that, I remember I met him once in a restaurant, I think, and he was just taught. I only talked to him for a few minutes. He came up to me and introduced himself. and he asked me some questions, and I just thought, wow, that kid's sharp.

Like, just the questions he asked me, you know, he was a fan. That was always the difference between us, still the difference between us, you know. He starts saying, we, and I'm like, I want to die. I want to crawl under a rock. We were taught, like, no, we. You know, you've got to be willing. I mean, some of the hardest things I ever did was to write difficult stories about Larry Bird at the end of his career who was having trouble coming to grips with his

limited physical capabilities. This guy that obviously I admired from watching what he did, had to write some tough stories about that. Dennis Johnson, one of my favorite players of all time, as he grew older and these young guys, Brian Shaw and some of these young players coming in, it was affecting his playing time, and he didn't handle it well because none of us do, right? It's hard when someone comes in and replaces you. So that was some of the hardest stuff writing those stories. But we had relationships with them. Like, I remember, I wrote a story about Danny Aange, and I called him hyperactive. I was kind of making fun of him for being so hyperactive.

And we were at the finals, and we were, they had us all. on the court, on the garden court, doing interviews. And the maintenance men were fixing some lights, and they had these long tubes of glass, like on the table. And so anyway, we were going by, and I must have had my bag, my hand, and I knocked one of the lights off, and it broke, you know, and it made a noise. And they were like on the court. And they're all looking, they turn and look at me, and I'm standing there. And Dan Angel looked at me and he goes, yeah, you're a little hyperactive over there, aren't you, Jackie? You know, like, they read everything. See, they do those things. They act like they don't read.

They act like they don't read, but they, they read everything. They all of those players read everything. I liked it. They really, they held me accountable. I mean, I, you know, I wrote, like I said, I had to write some stuff times. Sometimes it was difficult. There was no cell phones. Like you said, like you said holding accountable, right?

And I think that that gets misconstrued a lot. Because I think my era versus your era, we have Twitter now, right? So when you hold some, when players say, when players say we're holding you accountable, they do it in front. of the masses, right? And it's, it's, and I get it. And I'm not mad at it. I'm just saying it's just a difference in Erez. When was one of the first times you got held accountable from one of the, the Celtics played, held accountable in their eyes? And how did that affect you? What did you do when that, when that happened? How did you, how did you work through that? Who did it? How did that work out? Danny, Danny, Danny was good in that if he didn't like something,

like Danny had an argument with Jimmy Rogers, who was the head coach. He had been a long time assistant, then was the head coach. This is kind of at the end. Things are not going well. You know, the dynasty is fading to feel. And Danny and Jimmy had some words. And I was there. I saw it. I was, you know, it was a game. I was on the road with them. I saw it. And then I thought I asked Danny about it. But then I found out some additional information and asked Jimmy Rogers about it. So anyway, the story I wrote, Danny didn't like it. And he said it was inaccurate. And he said, why didn't you ask me? And I said, but you didn't come. And he was right, by the way. He's like, you didn't come back to me. You should have come back to me and ask me again. And he's right. I should have. He was right. And so he's like, you know, you made this out to be something it wasn't. And so I had to eat that one, you know, and I had to come back the next day and reframe it. No. And that's like, I'm okay with that. That's, I take, we all should take what we do with that report very seriously. Because again, without Twitter, without there was no text messages with any of that. Like you, it's. It's. It's. It.

If you're going to write this stuff, if you're going to write things that are difficult for players to hear, I always used to go to them and say, here's what I'm writing. Talk me out of it, you know. I mean, Paul Pierce, I had to write some really tough stuff about Paul Pierce. Paul Pierce was young. I'm covering him. He was like one of the games they're playing the Pacers and he got hit. He thought he got hit in the face and he got in a beef with the ref and he got himself thrown out of a playoff game. And I'm like, are you kidding me right now? It was redoubt. I mean, I destroyed him. And he came up to the press conference, the post-game press conference, wearing this thing wrapped around his jaw. I mean, he made a, you know, it was ridiculous.

And so I went at him pretty good. And but the one thing I'll say about Paul, I didn't see him again because they got eliminated. And then I didn't see him again to like the following fall when they have this pre, they have this gala, preseason gala that we all used to go to. And I saw him and I went up to and I said, hey, I've been trying to reach you. He said, I know. I said, well, I wrote some pretty difficult things. I said some pretty difficult things about you. and I was just trying to give you a chance to yell at me or swear at me or whatever you want.

And he just stuck out of his hand. He goes, it's a new year. Let's start over. Yeah. It's funny. It's funny because you had those, you're having those, you had those experiences without the, what, it's funny because like when we compare areas, it's like the same. But I remember there was one time where when I was going, I'm going to go to say words.

It was the year DeMarcus was on the team, DeMarcus cousins was on the team. and I reported something about him ramping up and going to come after Christmas. And it wasn't something that he wanted out. And in the moment, like, I remember when it happened, I reported the piece. Wasn't wrong, by the way, but reported the piece out, but didn't talk to him. And I didn't really like, because I was an eager reporter. You know, you want to get something out. You really, really want to do something.

You want to make your mark. And I think on that, at that point, I was going up against Anthony Slughey. Great reporters, Nancy Slater, Marcus Thompson, all these guys that are- Great writers, both of them. Great writers. And you want to make your mark on a beat. So that's what I'm thinking about. And so I report this story out.

And Ray Ritter, who was the best, it was during shoot-around when it came out. And he comes like pregame and is like, Marcus isn't happy with you. I was like, well, I'm just like this over. I'm going, well, let me go talk to him. And he was pissed. And you know what, Logan, he had a right to be. He had a right to be, right? But like in the moment, I'm like, why are you mad at me?

I'm trying. I'm doing all these things. You don't get it. But in hindsight, I'm like, well, you know, like he didn't want his rehab out. Because I don't realize this as a young reporter. That puts more pressure on him to perform. That puts more expectation on the fan base. He was in a contract year.

That signed the mid-level exception and so much pressure on him. But it's interesting when you have those times, right? because they do, they have agency too. They have a reason to be mad at you too, right? Sure. Because you're doing your job, but sometimes conflicts with what they're trying to do in their overall plans as well. Oh, a lot of times.

Yeah. I mean, Antoine Walker is another one. Gosh, it was so hard on him. But there was always at least dialogue about it. And you're right. Now it's different. Like I did, Bill and I did a pod. We were talking about Kevin Durant.

I think his time with the Brooklyn Nets and I made some comments about what I thought, you know, why it was a good move for him. It was very, everything we said was very complimentary. But I think he did tweet out that I was, he didn't like me talking about what, yeah, I don't know him. No, he said, we're not friends. And I was thinking, uh, Roger that. I got a lot of friends and none of them are Kevin Durant.

I mean, that was not what I was trying to say at all. But I understand that. He has a right. He has a right to respond that way. I respect it. I do. I respect all these guys. They have a right.

If there's something that upsets them or bothers them, they do have a right to use. whatever platform they decide to strike back if that's the way you want to describe it. So that doesn't bother me. If it bothers you, you shouldn't be in this business probably, you know? Because this is a tough business to be in. It's not for the week. But what do you think about it? I want to go back to the 80s.

How much did the Boston fans hate Magic Johnson and hate the Lakers versus respect them? Like, what was that eventual? We hate them. And then now it's the eventual, okay, we respect them. We played it for 12 years. We love him now. What was that line? What was that like?

Well, Margeic, magic was hard to hate, right? Because he was so charismatic and so magnetic and, you know, incredibly talented. And he was, you know, his whole thing with Larry, I don't know that Celtics fans ever grew to like him. Just because they bleed green, man, and they don't want to hear. Kareem was an easy villain. He was, you know, a little sullen. He didn't talk to him. He was terrific player.

He had the goggles. He had the oxygen mask off on in game, I forget which game in 84 in the playoffs. So those guys, he was a more natural villain, if you want to call him that. But I think Magic just wins people over. It's impossible. And he did it when he wore the Celtics gear, when he put it at Larry's retirement. And I think, too, like 87, 87, McHale's playing on a broken foot. Walton doesn't play one game in that series.

The Lakers go out, make a great acquisition in Michael Thompson. And now the team, the biggest shift in 86, 87 was they're not going through Kareem anymore. Magic gets, you know, Riley sits him down and says, this is your team now. We're going to feature you, not Kareem. And he took that to heart. And he was unbelievable. He makes that junior, junior hook over the best front line in basketball. And birds at the press conference afterwards, I was so stunned.

I'll never forget it. He's like, he's just the greatest player I've ever seen. I don't even know what to say. And it's, you know, and it was basically bird waving the, waving the white flag. Like, I, you know, because the one thing about Bird, he always was sure that he would outwork people. Like, no one was going to work harder than him. No one was going to study the game more.

No one was going to outbeat outtuff him in term of a mental fortitude. I mean, he was so mentally tough. He played hurt, all that stuff. But he met his match of magic, because magic was every one of those things, just like he was. And so I think that 87, and there was none of us, none of us had any way of knowing. That was the last time they would ever play each other in the finals. But Birds brought body fell apart. Walton never played another game.

McCale was never the same. And the Lakers went on, as you know, I don't have to tell you the history. But in 91, when Magic got that diagnosis, the basketball all of a sudden didn't matter to anybody. Really? I don't think it mattered to the fans. it certainly didn't matter Larry Bird. He very famously said it was the first time of life I didn't feel like playing basketball. So that kind of diagnosis.

We all thought magic's going to die. I mean, we didn't understand HIV. In fact, people forget this at his press conference. He actually said, I obtained the HIV virus. Right before that, right before he went to do that press comments, he was talking with Lon Rosen, who was his longtime agent and friend. And he said, let's go over what you're going to say when he gets me. He goes, well, I'm just going to tell people, you know, I have AIDS.

and he said, you don't have AIDS. You have the HIV virus. Like, even Magic didn't understand the difference in that exact moment. It's did a difference, yeah, for sure. Oh, my God, it's HIV, you can live forever. You know, age, you cannot, you know. And so even we were all educating ourselves on the fly. And I think that's maybe the one time the whole city of Boston,

the whole basketball world was let their God. And it's kind of like when Kobe, you know, you got word that Kobe died in that crash. I was actually skiing with my family at Colorado. and you're just so devastated. And at that moment, like, what jersey they wore and none of that matters. It just doesn't matter anymore. I think before, though, when I see when I look at old interviews of Larry Bird and, you know, old, like, whenever I can find, you know, postgame pressers, it was very complimentary of people he respected. Like, when Jordan hit 63, after a win, he called a, there's nobody better than Michael Jordan.

He's a God, exactly. God disguises Michael Jordan. How, what kind of play was he, what did it take to earn Larry's respect? And once you got it, what did that mean for you when you got Larry's respect? Well, you know, it's funny you're asking me this because I've been working on a project, actually, for the ringer that involved the conversation I just had recently with Michael Jordan about this very thing. And Jordan said, in essence, it validated me. You know, if Larry Bird says your God disguises, it validates you in a real big hurry. And he was a young guy.

He's a kid at that time. I think it was 1985, 86. 86, he made that comment. So yeah, he was. He's 24, 23, something like that. And, you know, hadn't become Michael Jordan yet, right? Hadn't won anything just yet. So I think the respect with Magic and Larry was there from the very beginning. But there was real dislike. There just was. I mean, their rookie year, their first game, they had to be separated. You know, Bird leveled magic on the way to the basket. And they're staring each other down. Everybody's got to, I mean, they, because they're were fighting for the same thing. You know, they wanted the rings. And they, and this personal rivalry was Stern was smart enough to blow it up. Everybody was talking about it. And, and so, you know, over time, though, when you, when you're trying to measure yourself against someone in there, every bit as smart as you, hardworking as you, as you, as mentally tough as you, after a while, I just started going, damn, that guy, that guy's got it, you know? When did, when did Byrd admit that he loved magic? When did he admit that he was like, okay, I love you.

But I, I, I'm a competitor, but I love you. When did it finally, when did they finally become friends? I mean, I think 87 was, you know, him saying, he's unbelievable. I don't even know what to say. But it really wasn't until the HIV diagnosis that he let down his guard. Bird's not very happy. He's not very free with letting down his guard. I think at that point, he was very shaken by the phone call.

You know, Lon called Larry and Larry ended up talking to magic and very shaken by that phone call. He thought magic was going to die. And, you know, think about these two guys that have been interconnected in ways that you can't even believe, you know. So one without the other, like Wilton, like Wilton Russell, same thing, you know. Like you just didn't talk about one without the other. And so you're so invested in trying to kill this guy, beat this guy, annihilate this guy. And now all of a sudden you're like, none of that matters, you know, none of that matters. How much did, how much did you brought up something?

I didn't even have this. I didn't even think of this. But how much was, I've been reading about Wilts and, and Russell for a minute. What was their relationship like? I know there was beef, but ultimately, what was from Russell's point of view? What do you think that that?

What was that? I felt like he always loved Wilt, but there was this, you know, it was competitive. It was ego. It was book sales. It was a lot of those things. Yeah, yeah. From Russell's standpoint.

Well, again, very competitive. There was, I think, an understanding back then. Now you're talking the 60s, right? So you're talking about a time where, you know, black athletes in the NBA go to cities and aren't served lunch at certain counters. Think about that. You know? And so that's something that bonds you in a way that I'll never understand, right? I've never had that experience.

So they had each other's backs when it came to civil rights and social justice. And, you know, they were both there when Martin Luther King was assassinated. They both marched together to Ebenezer Church for his funeral. and so there were a lot of things that brought them together. But I've said this about every athlete I've ever been around. You can like someone a lot. You can be friends with someone. But when you're both trying to win a championship

and the other guys in your way, you're going to do whatever it takes to win that. And of course, Russell kept winning and winning and winning. And Wilt did not. And so, you know, their arc was competitiveness, camaraderie, competitiveness. They didn't talk for many years. and then, you know, near the end of Wilt's life, they had definitely, you know, settled into a really nice friendship.

But that can't happen until it's over. It just can't happen until it's over. Bird Magic couldn't be friends, you know? You can't. It's like, I mean, I don't know, like, who are, I don't know, like LeBron and Dwayne Wade, they were okay when they were together, but I don't know what they were like when they were apart. Well, I'm thinking right now, like, players versus cities, right? Like, I can't wait to see how Oklahoma City responsible. responds to Kevin when he's retired, right? You know, when they have the, I can't, I just can't wait to see that or where, how his relationship is with Golden State or how LeBron's relationship with Miami is when

it's all said and done or Cleveland, right? There's there's complicated relationships in the moment, but I can't wait to see what, how it is. Yeah, but Miami, they should thank LeBron every single day. Now, he left, but again, he was a free agent, didn't force his way out. He did leave them a little hamstrung. The thing about that was when he and Bosch went there and De Wade was already there and they signed those deals, the originally was supposed to be, I forget, I don't remember the length of the deals now,

but they added an extra year on it and it really hamstrung the heat in terms of adding free agents to make that team better. And, you know, they made some decisions that really put the heat in a tough position, but it didn't matter as long as they were there and winning championships. And then you leave. But, you know, if you're the Miami Heat and you look back on it and you look up in those rafters, how can you do anything but retire his number and applaud him you know whereas

Golden State, Golden State and Durant that's a little trickier, right? I think it'll work itself off. I think it'll work itself. It should. It should. It absolutely should. Because again, he was fantastic on that team and helped you know, won them championships.

But this, you know, the Steph, like he could just never be, you know this. I'm not telling you that you don't know. That fan base, as much as I love Katie, you weren't Steph. It's just that simple. Here's the thing. No one in the Bay Area stuff.

No one. Well, that's it. That's right. Not even Dame Lillard, you know? And that's just what it is. And by the way, once again, I don't blame Kevin Durant going to Brooklyn. He was a free agent. Not at all.

That's what free agency is about. You have a right to move and switch teams. So I didn't blame him one bit. Before we get out of here, I didn't want to ask because you brought up something. What is Boston's relationship with Braun? Because it's funny. That's one of the things that I think we want. We won't know that we won't know like the full extent I told his career is over, but he's had so many

great moments in Boston, so many great times in Boston and so, and also the beef with Paul Pierce. What are their, what is their relationship like? What is that relationship between Braun and Boston? Oh, no, they hate. Yeah, they hate him. Because he, because he took things from them they wanted, you know. He's taking their heart out every time. Not every time, not every time. Not every time. Not every time. Yeah, 2008, you know, like, so that's the thing, right? He, I would see. I would say in the end, he came out, you know, with the heat especially. But with Cleveland, those were, you know, those were learning experience for his LeBron. But I think LeBron feels the same way about Boston. They feel about him. There's a real healthy dislike that's just based purely on business,

you know, you have something I want, you took it, or you didn't take it. Yeah, like, it's great to be, I think LeBron probably, I don't know, I haven't talked about it, but I bet he loves going to Boston and shutting those people up because he's had some amazing performances there. But he's also had some low moments there. And that's what makes it so interesting, right? I think. Why is Pearson Braun the greatest rivalry never told?

I feel like everything I hear behind the scene is so great. It's such a healthy dislike, I think, respect, but there is a dislike there. Can you just build a curtain back on that really quickly? Well, I just think Pierce waited so long to get there. And then now Garnett's there and he finally gets there. And LeBron is just incredible. I mean, that that duel they had was amazing.

And so Pierce prevails in that moment. But like, there's no argument here about who's the better player of all time. Good Lord. It's pretty obvious. Right? And so I think in Paul's mind, he's like, yeah, no, but I got you. I got you. And LeBron's like, yeah, whatever, man.

See you later. You know, how many champions? Wait, Paul, how many champions you have again? Oh, one. That's right. Yeah, I got a few more, you know. Lord. And he could still, and LeBron could also say, yeah, if I had one,

more peace in that 08 year, there's a chance I could have beat y'all that year. Because LeBron had that incredible game, that game 7 and 08. But we could talk about this all the time. Jackie was amazing to have you on. Next time we have you on, we'll talk NBA. But in the meantime, checks out on real ones, Mondays and Thursdays. Check out Upside High with J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Charks. Make sure you check out weekends with Waz.

Make sure you check out New York, New York, the Boyd with KOC, the answer group chat. And also make sure you check out mismatch Tuesdays and Fridays. We will see you guys on Thursday. Thanks so much.