The Ringer NBA Show - Celtics Pummel Cavs, Warriors-Rockets Is Here, and Second-Round Exit Interviews | Heat Check (Ep. 267)

Episode Date: May 14, 2018

The Ringer’s John Gonzalez sits down with Jason Concepcion, Kevin O’Connor, and Jonathan Tjarks to react to the Boston Celtics’ dominant Game 1 win against the Cleveland Cavaliers (2:25), preview the highly anticipated Western Conference finals between the Golden State Warriors and the Houston Rockets (21:42), and discuss the futures of the four teams that exited the playoffs most recently (32:26). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's ringer NBA show Heat Check is brought to you by State Farm. A State Farm agent has the knowledge and experience to anticipate your needs. And with State Farm, you get more than just an agent, you get a teammate that gets what matters most to you. So go to StateFarm.com to get an agent that gets you. And now, Heat Check. That's a boat torch. It's a heat check. You know that was coming.

It's Heat Check time. Welcome to the Heat Check podcast. I'm your host John Gonzalez. Join as I am every week by our excellent producer, Isaac Lach, Lee, happy Mother's Day, Isaac. Happy Mother's Day to you. I did the math on this. We all have mothers.

Yeah. Happy Mother's Day to your mom, to my mom, to all the moms at the ringer, to all of our listeners who are moms. We got a good show, fun show, basketball. Never stops, as we like to say here at the Heat Check podcast. Before we get into that, we've got all kinds of excellent NBA content on the ringer.com. KOC has a piece on the ringer right now following game one of the Eastern Conference finals, which did not go well for the Cleveland Cavaliers.

To say the least. the least. So KOC broke that down. Ugly performance by the Cavs, excellent performance by the Boston Celtics, who just cannot be stopped. So that's up on the ringer. Also, we have Jonathan Charks on Andre Guadala and how he fits in with the Golden State Warriors.

That series is set to kick off on Monday as you listen to this. We've also got a fun video about LeBron James with a Han Solo sort of mashup called Bronz Solo, a Cavalier story. See what we did there. That's a fun staff video. And we're going to have a lot. NBA show off the lottery on Tuesday night. You're not going to want to miss that. And of course, we're going to have a ton of NBA Combine content. KOC is going to be in Chicago for the combine.

I just wrote about Mobamba. You can check that out on the ringer. So we've got all that stuff for you. But first, tons and tons of NBA playoffs. We're going to dig into game one of the Eastern Conference finals. We're going to preview the Western Conference finals. And then we're going to do some exit interviews from the four teams that got bounced out of the semifinals. So lots of stuff to talk about. And this one's going to be fun because we've got an all-star cast. We're going to do something we haven't done here before. We're going to go four wide with three of our favorites. Let's hit it. He's heating up. All right. I'm very excited about this. Joining me in studio, we haven't done this before. So a lot of times with the new heat check format, what we do is we like to shuttle people in and

out. It's more of a hockey lineup change for this one. I said, just bring everybody in at the same time. So from my right to my left, we've got Kevin O'Connor here. We've got Jason Concepcion here. And fresh off the plane from Dallas Live and in person, Jonathan Charks is here. What's up, guys? We've got four wide plus Isaac, plus Milton is also here. So we've also got our animal friends represented. It's very exciting to talk about basketball.

Unless you live in Cleveland. Less exciting. Tough look for the Cleveland Cavaliers. How did I start to that series? Maybe Marcus Morris was on to something. Game one for the Boston Celtics went, well, if you are a Celtics fan, they put it on the Cleveland Cavaliers right from the beginning.

I mean, it really wasn't a contest. Kevin and I were watching it at work together, and right away, you said, hey, Cleveland should really go big, and they didn't really until it was much too late. Yeah, I mean, look, Tailu had a choice. Do you continue playing with your four shooters surrounding LeBron James, which worked tremendously well against Toronto last series

and as part of their high-powered offenses? Or do you go big and do what worked very effectively in the past against Boston, with Thompson really just beating up on Horford and forced them to play the lineup that they don't want to play with Baines and Horford, and they ended up not doing it. And Boston came out and just blew them out in the first quarter, and that was pretty much it,

and I do wonder if that's the adjustment moving forward to game two. I mean, it seems likely game two. I feel like we'll go back to 2015, like Caveman Ball with Mosgov and Thompson. Slow the game down, throw it inside, went ugly. Because this team not enough talent to play any other way, I don't think. Winning Ugly is, like, pretty much how they've won this year. It's such a weird calves year.

It's a very, very strange calves year. It's hard to get a read on them, because they coasted for the entire regular season, were a horrific defensive team. Yes. How much of that was that they were pacing themselves, how much of that is structural, was hard to say.

Clearly, they struggled with the pacer's, when the pacer's had some dynamic stuff from the perimeter going on. The Celtics just have a really deep roster, and they have a lot of flexibility in the way they can play, and they can throw a lot of different looks at LeBron James defensively,

and they have a lot of guys that can create offense, and the calves don't. Celtics are such a weird team. But you're right about the looks that they can throw at the Cavs. Like defensively, they're amazing. And they're so switchable. And everybody that they're like with the exception, there were times, right?

And they were willing to deal with this. But there were times when Terry Rozier would end up getting switched on to LeBron. And that's just kind of what happens and you deal with it. But almost every other player that they're switching is long, gives everybody for the Cavs serious problems defensively. I mean, that defense doesn't get enough credit. I mean, like, we saw it against the Sixers, and now we're seeing it with LeBron, too,

where they're a problem. They're a massive problem. It's kind of funny because yesterday, the Celtics Twitter account tweeted out that article about how, you know, the Marcus Morris is the best non-coil-leather defender. The LeBron stop, right? Let's get that nickname out there. And guess what?

You know, he did a really nice job today, as did Boston's entire defense as a whole. Both teams switched almost all on-ball screens and off-ball, too, for that matter. But when a smaller guy like Terry Rozier got switched on to LeBron, what do they do? They doubled. What happened when later in the game, it was Rozier, they ended up, you know, what it was on Kevin Love on a switch. They ended up switching while the entry pass was happening.

They were doing little things that might appear to be a weakness for Boston, Rosier on LeBron, or Rosier on Love. They ended up having a way to counter against that. Their game plan was really, really good. Not only that, but also just the fact, like you said, Gons, they have a lot of good defensive players. Everybody can defend on that team. And what were you're saying, like, to me, it's as much on office. Like who has Kyle Corver guard ever on this lineup? Like, what's he going to do?

Like, tackle dudes? Corver's not god-awful. I mean, he's going to guard Jalen Brown, though? Yeah, I mean, that's just not going to work. It's a mismatch, but I don't think he's like, you know, bottom of the barrel on defense necessarily. But at this level of the game, though, he's got to get out of there. For sure. It sucks.

He's good, but it just is what it is. I mean, that's like the other side of it, though, is like everybody's saying, Oh, Horford's the only star in the Celtics. And that's true, right? He's the only proven star, but Tatum is performing like a star. Jalen Brown is having star nights. Like tonight he was fantastic. So they're getting contributions from other guys that they need to make it so like Corver, it's going against a really, really good player.

Yeah, to me it's like they get offense from every position. At the same time, if the Cavs can at least be competent from deep, it makes it a little easier. You know, O for three for J.R. Smith from three, oh for five for LeBron. Kevin Love, one for four. Kyle Corver, one of five. George Hill one of two. Yeah. So they went four for 26.

But part of this is a chicken and egg scenario for me because on the one hand, yes. You're looking at the cab shooters and going, they got to make their shots. However, Charks, as soon as you got off the plane, you were saying, like, you know, what did some of their looks look like? Some of them were fine. A lot of them were contested. And again, we saw this against the Sixers. I was just like, game one of the Sixers, right? They were like, oh, I missed some of the shots.

So the first series for the Sixers, they shot the lights out, right? Because the Heat were supposed to have a good defense and the Sixers had a lot of shooters and the shooters went out. That defense for Boston, especially on the perimeter, is absolutely killer. And Mark Jackson pointed this out. It was maybe the first good point that Mark Jackson has ever made in a game broadcast. But he was talking about their perimeter defense. And you see the results right here, 4-4-26 on the perimeter. And I think, yeah, the Cavs missed some shots.

But a lot of it goes to credit their defense, right? Mark is smart. Here's another thing that I wanted to bring this up to you. Sure. Did you hear Mark Jackson say, and I'll throw this up to the entire group, Mark Jackson said that Marcus Smart is the greatest perimeter defender in Celtics team history. Celtics team history. I like it.

Mark Jackson going out of limb. I mean, look, he is an amazing defender. But they're the Celtics. Is that possible? Celtics is a Celtics super fan, KOC. Let us know about this. I just pulled up an article, like top Celtics defenders in history.

And they have John Havilecichek 1, Dennis Johnson, 2, Tony Allen 3, Reggie Looleon 4, Rajon Rondo 5. Smart's better than Rondo, I think. Smart's better than Rondo. Yeah, that's fantastic. Here's the thing.

I mean, is he better than peak Tony Allen? I don't think so. But the thing is, Marcus Smart has a really special ability that not many players do of defending bigger players in the past. We've seen him against Paul Millsap. Chris Stap's Porzingis, he had the strip on LeBron James today. He is an unbelievable defensive player. There's no doubt about that.

The rankings, top five, I don't know, man. I mean, he hasn't played long enough. Like, John Havlitchie. I don't think my dad was alive. He did steal the ball that time. I can't even tell you. You can't, I mean, you can't like that. That one time, he stole the ball. for decades.

I've long said that if Marcus Smart is ever on a championship team, no matter what team it is, he's going to have a moment like that because Marcus Smart does have the it factor about him. If he's on a championship team, he will have a moment like that. Marcus Smart is having some moments. South O'Cliff, Dallas represent.

Marcus Morris is having some moments. The Cavs are having a lot fewer moments. Did we get, because you had mentioned, like, it's been a super weird year for them. It's very strange. But so did we, because of what happened with the Raptors, did we just forget about everything that came before? Because

they crushed the Raptors and we went, oh, right, it's playoff LeBron, he's just going to carry them, it's going to be fine. I think to an extent, you know, the recency bias is always going to be there, especially in the playoff time. LeBron took advantage of a team that wasn't willing to adjust to what he was doing and basically

just fell back on the things that never worked in the past against him. And he carved them the fuck up. Yeah. The Celtics, they can make so many adjustments it's just a totally different series. And if you look down the roster, like, who has an edge? LeBron has an edge every time he's on the floor.

The rest of those matchups, who really has an edge? It's tough to say outside of LeBron, I don't really see anything. And that's the thing, really. So for, like, Toronto, I mean, it was a tough matchup problem that series for them because Jonas Valenciunis can't defend Kevin Love. And Boston has Al Horford, one of the best defensive players in basketball. So Boston has an ability to match up better with Cleveland. in a way that Toronto didn't.

That's why you got to go to Caveman Ball. You got to make Baines get in there. Maybe make Greg Monroe get in there. That might help you out a little bit. Get that matchup going. Right, and just really try and drag the pace down into the mud. Yeah. I mean, like, I think, look, I said that, like, I tweeted that this morning.

And, you know, I kind of feel the same way. But on the other hand, like, just to play devil's advocate, maybe you are better off just playing with this four-out offense because LeBron James, with all that space is at his best. He's probably not going to be as bad as five for 16 again, O for five from three. LeBron's probably not going to have a seven turnover game again. They're probably not going to shoot as badly as poorly as they did.

I wonder if LeBron saw it was like, this isn't happening today. I'm shutting it down. I have some of energy left in the series. I've got to be very careful. He pulled the Rodney Hood. He decided he was like, I can't go back in the game. Jose Calderon in there. game and as we just made fun of,

said that what he actually said was that Jose Calderon was ready, so put Jose in. But as Jeff Van Gundy rightly pointed out, why the hell then did Rodney Hood apologize if he didn't refuse to go back in the game? Has anybody hurt himself more over the last year than Rodney Hood?

Rodney's got a bad attitude, and it has hurt him. There's got to be somebody that's hurt himself more because it's not like Rodney came in super, super touted, although his ability to shoot. Nerlins. Nerlands. Nerlands.

$70 billion. But he's cruising towards an Erland's territory with this. Not guys get literally hurt as much as Ronnie Hood does though either. Yeah, that's the thing. Well, that was good. He's always hurt.

There you go. Maybe that's why he's so cantankerous all the time. Well, he's not to watch himself, I guess. I'm going to hurt my ankle out here at this one. But it's really bizarre because you look at this team and, like, as Jason was saying, you look up and down the roster, and you've got LeBron James and Kevin Love,

and then you have a bunch of shoulder shrugs. Like, where are you getting offense from, right? Rodney Hood had an opportunity when he got to Cleveland to remake the narrative about Robert. Rodney Hood. I mean, this should be, in theory, a good spot for him. They need offense. He is theoretically a scorer. And instead he's like, nah, Jose, it's you, buddy. You go. Well, I could see it the other way, too, like, when Crowder came to Utah. And they're like, how you do it in Utah? And he's like, wow, we have a system and there's structure. This is

pretty cool. Like, it's hard. I think for some guy, it's hard to be in Cleveland and watch the bra and hold the ball for 45 minutes and never do anything. So it's definitely an adjustment for a younger player like Hood. He's had the ball his whole career. And with Rodney Hood, he's a type of guy that, you know, he used to throw up a four games, used to have nerve, nerve issues. So, low mental toughness are you saying, yeah, it's maybe. But I think maybe that's part of it where there's no,

there's no greater pressure than playing alongside LeBron James, the greatest player of this generation. You're in the NBA. Sure, you know, but we're talking about fit and every player's different. I mean, maybe for Rodney Hood, he's better off playing a low pressure environment than the greatest pressure. Like, for example, Utah?

Yeah. Like, I mean, you're in a small market, right? if it wasn't going to be low pressure there. He wasn't bad in Utah. He had some moments there. He was okay. He was just always hurt. Well, he got 18 minutes today,

11 points, 5 of 12, after refusing to go into the game, was kind of borderline shocking. But I honestly, what choice? I think that says it all right there. He played. Yeah, I mean, he played. It's not like they have options.

Like, what are their options? It's play the guy who refused to go in the game. Like, you literally have to get in there. Like, seriously, you have to go in there and eat minutes, please. That's the thing. It's like, you know, it's always. easy to blame these coaches. It's always easy

to say Joe Prunty's playing Shabaz Mahan. It's always easy to say, you know, Tylo is playing Jordan Clarkson, but what options do these teams have sometimes? It's like... We won't bring us back up, KOC. You know who they should play in Milwaukee. Sterling Brown, but that's a whole different. That's a whole different story. We'll talk about that after a file. He's bringing this. He's bringing

this one up. My guy is Sterling Brown, but... I like Sterling a lot, too. But, I mean, for a coach, there must be a reason you're not playing Jedi Osman, right? There must be a reason that you have for not playing those guys. What is it, though? I can't figure it. I don't know what it You did. I thought you were like mostly joking when you said, what does he have to do to get on the floor? I mean, he's like, how bad could he be?

He's looked okay throughout the season. He's had moments. Jenny plays really hard. He's faced the floor. I would like to see him out there, but I think, like, with Ty Lou, it's kind of a pick-your-poison thing with Boston's defense, right? Because if you're going to try to play fast and outscore the Celtics, that's one option. That means you're going to end up with Tristan Thompson on the bench a lot, or you could go the other way and try to play the bully ball thing. like at 35 minutes, that eliminates a lot of hoods minutes, Clarks, greens.

You got to pick one. The rotation kind of evens out more naturally that way. These are not good options either way, though, is what I'm saying, because Boston's defense is a killer. Here's what I'm wondering, though. So let's just say that this first game is emblematic of potentially what the series could be. I say always overreact to game one. I love overreacting game one. There's good reason to sometimes.

Dan Feldman tweeted out a stat today that the teams that won game one and Best of Seven series have won the series 77% of the time. Teams at one game one, best of seven by 25 plus have won the series 86% of the time. Was it San Antonio Houston last year? That was one where it went the other way. And then like how many of those teams have LeBron James? Not many of them, but it's still interesting nonetheless.

I'm saying matchup-wise and then Boston's defense-wise, which again, like all year long and they'd just been so good. And yes, Brad Stevens is amazing and fine. But potentially, if this is the way the series goes and then Boston gets through, are we ready for like a non-Lebron finals? Ready for non-Cavs Warriors finals? Like any matchup at that. But are you ready to watch the Boston Celtics with Al Horford as their primary guy

and Jason Tatum as their 1A in the final? Like, it's narrative. As narratives go and storylines go. I know you're ready. It'd be a remarkable story for a team without two of their three best players and riding on a 20-year-old and a 21-year-old. I mean, yeah, what were the odds after Hayward went down? Like 50 to 1 probably?

It'd be really remarkable story. I think. You want to see it. I do want to see it. It's actually, it's kind of like the Warriors versus like the knockoff warriors in a lot of ways. Just in terms of the things they can do, the way they can switch on defense. Proto Warriors are saying. Proto Warriors.

It's just a less high-octane warriors in terms of the way they approach the game and the way they use their players. I think it's really interesting. The games over the last two seasons between these two clubs have been really exciting during the regular season. Southwigs Warriors? Yeah. Yeah, that's true, actually. They've been really, really fun. And the Celtics give the war...

I'm not going to say that the Celtics are in any way of favorite, but they give the Warriors certain kinds of match-up problems and a bit of their own medicine, so to speak. I think it's... I think it'd be an interesting series. I'll say that it'll be fun to watch LeBron the rest of this series. Like, before we get to that part, LeBron like, Guns Blaz, it'll be good. Well, see, that's what...

That's why I'm, as I'm thinking forward, I don't know that I'm ready for less LeBron in my life, right? I won as much LeBron as I can possibly get. And also, and not for nothing, just as a Philadelphia, do we have to get into the budding Celtics dynasty already? It makes me want to sell harm right now. It's like, well, we lost the conference champions. No, it doesn't make me feel better.

Here's because, again, as I look forward for not just the rest of this season and the rest of the playoffs, but for the next five seasons or 10 seasons, in theory, it should be Philadelphia and the Celtics jockeying, right? But the Celtics are about to add two amazing players for next year and beyond. And they're already in the conference finals and potentially going to the finals. Holy shit. No, no more Boston in my life. I thought with the Patriots that that would be plenty.

And the Eagles did a service for America by vanquishing the awful terrible New England Patriots. And now what? The Celtics rise? Somebody help me here. This sounds awful. Not you. I said somebody. Some are far ahead.

They are. Potentially two lottery picks next to your staff too. That's the thing. That's the brutal. It's brutal. I don't think they're laughing with me, gang. I think they're laughing at me. You could be a Knicks fan or a mass fan.

It's their worst scenario. I don't want to hear you crying. Why have been sent you'll be to my team? Oh, this is so terrible. Let me just ask. I'm really fascinated by what the Sixers do. This is obviously off topic. What do they do about Fultz?

I think they have to make it. My thing is they need to make a determination quickly, whether they think he's going to. to be for real. And then they need to make a decision about whether they cut bait or not. And I think they need to do it soon because their window is smaller than you think it is. The funny thing is like he is exactly the guy they needed in the last round. His theoretical skill set would have been like perfect.

We're going to have exit interviews at the end of this podcast with the teams that got bounced out of the finals. Yeah, we'll do it. So I guess we'll talk about Fultz. I need a breather from this. We're going to talk about the Western Conference finals. We're going to preview that. But first, a word from our sponsors. Today's Ringer NBA show, Heat Check is brought to you by State Farm.

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services only. Certain markets are excluded, licenses available at ADT.com. And now, back to Heatcheck. All right, so not looking good for the Cavaliers. We'll see if they can rebound in the Eastern Conference. But Western Conference final starts on Monday, gang. Charks, you have a piece up on the ringer.com looking at Andrea Godala and how he joined the Warriors and that really started this area of Warriors'ness. But we've been barreling towards this all season long, right? I mean, like, Warriors Rockets is what we've been waiting for. I'm excited about it.

Yeah, for sure. I should be fine. I mean, first night of the season, it was like 120, 122. Like Warriors, and ever since time, it's been prelude to this. Did we all make predictions here? Let's go around there. Let's go around. What did you say?

I said Warriors and Six. Warriors and Six. Houston and Seven. Yes. KOC's rolling the dice. I like it. Yeah, I'm with the Warriors. Six or seven.

I would like to see, I mean, this is, is going to be a fascinating series because styles make matchups, right? And it's like all year long, they have been the two best teams in the NBA. And they play radically different offensive styles in that the Warriors whipped the ball around the perimeter. They're super pass heavy. They're at top of the league and assist rate. And the Houston Rockets are not because they score a lot off their first and second actions and they play a lot of ISO ball. And when Kevin and I were in Boston for the Sloan Analytics Conference, Mori talked about this very thing with Zach Lowe. And he was like, look, you know, sometimes, especially in the playoffs,

your offense doesn't matter. You just need a bucket in one moment. And that's kind of how they played all year. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this goes. I wrote about that before the finals last year when I picked Cleveland to beat Golden State, we should not go well. But, you know, the point of the article kind of stands in the sense that, you know,

even Golden State, they run more isolations the deeper you get into the playoffs. I don't have the numbers offhand exactly, but it was a pretty significant increase, especially in the fourth quarter of games. So for Houston, that's really what they do best, right? They are probably the best isolation team in basketball, except for maybe the team that has Stefan Curry and Kevin Durant.

Yeah, we'll see the – maybe we'll see the Steph, Katie, pick, and roll for, like, a long part of the series. Would it be nice to see that. Like, they're going to be pushed finally, hopefully. It's really interesting how these two teams kind of embody all the philosophical changes that have emerged over the league in the league over the last 10 years. It's like a return to iso ball when you can do it in certain situations. efficiently enough, it's actually good. This is what we've discovered.

It's like if you can get free throws and rim looks out of it, it's a great offense. Yeah, and I think too, like so it seems like for the most part, small ball has won the day. Like the big for small thing is over. This might be the next like ideological thing. It's like I chose versus ball movement like the next couple of years.

And I love watching those differences stylistically, but also strategically, right? Like when are you going to bring out the pick and roll with those guys for the Warriors? And when are you going to just decide, hey, we need a bucket right now. And does that break down the overall like schematics of your offense

and what you're trying to do and the adjustments? In a way, though, whoever gets through this, it feels like is the presumptive champion with apologies to your Boston Celtics potentially if they get through or LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Doesn't it feel like this is kind of the finals? Yeah, it feels like that, but you know what I mean, guys get hurt all the time. Yeah, you never know. You're right, one injury away. Yeah. We get two finals. Yeah, cool.

Yeah. What are you most like, What matchups are you most looking forward to? I mean, to me, it's Katie. I feel like this is a series where if Katie can, like, be Katie, get 30 efficiently against these elite defenders, then what's going to happen? I feel like last year, they really didn't do anything, goals.

They just kind of want on pure talent. Yeah. It's like this year they're going to actually be pushed. Now, here's Katie's chance, but I'm the best player in the world. Like, that's the chance right now in the series. Take that step. I think for me it's Draymond, who's kind of, like, scuffled through the regular season

and then emerged in the previous round where he just looked like, like the dynamo that he's been in the past. I think that unlocks a lot of things for them. Katie, too. I mean, Katie, like, just, I'm interested where they, where he ends up on defense. That's the thing I'm interested with Katie. To me, it's Clint Capella.

You know, he won the Rudy-Goberer matchup. One of the talents matchup, too. He won that as well. And this is different, though. I mean, like, you're going against Dremont Green. If you can force Golden State to have to play, like, Zaza, Pachulia, well, then you're... You just basically spit his name out. You can't...

I can't be bothered to say, but your face scrunched up into an awful look. But on the other hand, though, like if you're a Golden State, you can force Houston to pull Capella off who has been so tremendous protecting the rim and you force them to go

small with Bahamute or Tucker at the 5, well, that's good for Golden State. But the fact Houston can play those styles, it does bode well for them. Let's not forget the Nick Young, Gerald Green shootout, we're all going to get that. Oh, please, yes.

I want that. I also want to see, how do we feel about it? about James Harden right now because the second round wasn't phenomenal for him. There were some questions about how he's feeling. I'm here for the memes for sure. If he has a bad game, definitely here for the memes.

Do we think that he's rested and ready to rock and that we're going to get the James Hardin that we got all year? Do we think that the James Hardin that we got in the second round might show up where he maybe wasn't as efficient as... What Jason was saying, you put KD on him. He can fight over screens and just cover him up. That'd be fascinating. That's the thing that I'm really interested in.

How do they use Kady's length? Kady's really taking it up a couple notches over the last season and a half, like since he's been with the Warriors, just unlocking his defensive potential. And I think that's a huge X-factor. You know what it reminds me of? It's remember in 2011 when it was LeBron versus Rose and Rose won the MVP? And LeBron was like, no, I'm bigger and faster than you. He just took him out of the series. And it was like, oh my God, LeBron's great defender. Well, Harms from the MVP this year, Durant can be like, can we take that from him? Or do you have Kevin Durant's off ball, like on

Arisa, Tucker, Bob Muti, and having him room kind of helping off one of those guys and, you know, essentially trying to take away the lane from Gordon's drives. Or maybe he put him on Cappell and he comes out of that switch. Like, oh, here I am. I mean, we shouldn't forget either. Like, conversely, he's in a good year defensively, right? So I'm interested to see what they do to lock up KD. I mean, like, who do you put, like, how do you go about solving the Steph, Clay, Drayman, KD?

You know, they're playing four out and they're whipping the ball around. How do you go about solving that? I guess to me, the last few things I'm watching is like, can they go Gordon, Paul Hardin. Can they keep one of those defenders off the floor? Because that's their best offensive lineup. Can those guys survive on defense? Because you'll probably all three guys to be scoring big box.

I'm expecting a high scoring series. Yeah. I think all three those guys are going on. That would be great. Because I'm coming off a Sixth or Celtics and like that was a rock fight. So like the high scoring would be a lot of fun. Absolutely. I'm interested to see how Kerr tries to pick at James Hardin.

They have been, the Rockets were really good defensive teams this year. A lot of that is the new personnel, P.J. Tucker, et cetera. I feel like they're going to go right at Hardin. On switches, straight up with Steph Curry, whoever's on them, I feel like they're going to go right at him and see what they can get. Or like if you have Hardin on like Steph or Curry, can he track them around screens?

Yeah. Like off the ball, like 20 minutes. Tire him out. He's had issues with being tired and exhaustion in the past. And can you do it? Can you wear him down? Fatigue's certainly going to be a huge factor in the series. We saw it in the past of Dan Tony's son's teams.

Hardin certainly, you know, in the past before Dan. and Tony has certain looked fatigued the deeper he's gone through the playoffs in this last round. He did as well. So having Chris Paul is certainly going to help, though, having a Hall of Fame point card by your side who can help handle the load. Yeah, all season long, I thought like how they played together was fascinating. Because pre seeing it unfold with Chris Paul, I didn't expect that it would go this seamlessly. It's been great. It's, I mean, it's been a revelation.

And I think you're right. Like having Chris Paul, who's a Hall of Famer on that team in this series. But it's kind of weird to say he could be a X-factor, but he's kicking ass. He's really kicking ass. And he really filled the perfect slot that they needed because, you know, what was the way you shut down the rockets and the playoffs in the past? It was like you tried to squeeze them into that long two range. Now you have one of the best mid-range shooters who's ever done it. Yeah.

He's still able to kill from that range. And Chris Paul and problem basically solved. I think if I was like the one thing with, I was the Warriors, like you got Paul and Hardin. But the Warriors got Katie, Clay, and Steph. Like, they can have an off night from one of their guys. Whereas the Rockets' guys can't have off nights. So can they get like 35 on ISOs against elite defense, six, seven games?

I don't know. Could you say the same thing about some of Golden States guys, though? Like I'm like the stars. They have three stars versus two on offense. Oh, that's what I was saying. Honestly, I think less so. It's like you look at Capella. If Hardin's having a bad game,

Capella's maybe going to have a bad game. Probably. You know, like, so it's like, it's a trickle-down effect for that team more than the Warriors. You mentioned Ecuador. You wrote about Igwadaala. take us through that piece and what he means for that team. Oh, yeah.

So I went back and looked at his quotes from like 2013 when he signed there. And basically he sold them on the team. He was like, he came to the meeting. He's like, no, I know what's going on. I got stuff. You got stuff. You got to come and do this, this and this. They're like, we got to sell you.

He's like, no, I want to do this. This is going to be the team. This is happening. It's fascinating. And he's kind of like mastermind of this whole thing from the beginning. Like he was there with KD in the meeting. Like it feels like Igwood doll was like, he was like, he was like the adjacent kid of this team

where he's kind of like the off-the-court mastermind he's the leader in the locker room he guards positions he's the ball mover I have this one play in my article from game four against New Orleans he gets the ball on the top of the key there's no one on him he's wide open

and he's like because Clay get over they literally points of Clay move and Steph comes the spot he hits Steph for three he's literally like guys go there you go here I'll make it happens there's a there's a clip on Reddit of Igwadol

saying clay, clay, clay, clay, like 50 times, trying to get clay to go to the right spot on the floor. That feels like NBA desktop material. It's very much, though. I, you know, like having covered Iguadala in Philly and then watch what he was there, and then in Denver, and then seeing this version of Iguodala, like, where they had to say, okay, well, you're going to be a bench guy and you're going to be doing all these things. And like, hearing himself them on it before it actually happened is really interesting

because he wasn't any of those things previously. he was, I mean, he was always a good passer, always a good defender, but he had to do so much more for Denver and Philly and now for him to just be the intangibles guy and do whatever needs to be done and just be like a really smart guy on the floor who's never going to hurt you is probably

what he was always best to do. They wanted too much from him in Philly. Oh, way too much. And also he got killed for the contract. Like, they gave him max money and who wouldn't take that? Like, that's his fault. And the funny thing is so this offseason, they're like, we don't really want to pay you. We have lugs re-tax. And he

Well, let's go to Houston and have a meeting with the Rockets. And they're like, okay, three for 50. He's like, oh, okay, yeah, that's all right. Like, he's got the whole thing figured out, man. It's going to be a fascinating series. I'm super excited about it. We should also do some exit interviews because those guys are still going. There are teams that are not still going.

You want to start with the sexers because you mentioned it. I want to hear your reaction. Yeah, how are you feeling emotionally? How are you feeling? What should they do? How do you feel about their window, which I think is smaller than people realize. I think that series was an interesting series. Kevin is literally laughing.

The best part is like, we're on a podcast. He's like silent laughing out of the corner of my eye. That series could have gone the other way. There were a number of games, games two and games three where... Mistakes. A hundred percent. And like, there were coaching mistakes. And also, again, credit to the Celtics, they played it like a rock fight.

They played it like a bully ball where the Sixers were playing extremely fast in the first series. And the Celtics were like, nope, you're not going to do that. We're going to play. We're going to dial the pace. way down and you're going to have to beat us that way and they couldn't right and the Celtics took advantage of that credit to them so panic meter one to ten like 15 you what you said about faults is right right like what they needed was what faults ostensibly could have delivered somebody to create a shot i don't know what's going to happen there and this is something

i talked with bill about on last week's pod bill was given heat to in a shocking development Bill was giving heat to Brett Brown because he's got Brad Stevens and Brad Stevens can do no wrong. For me, I'm much, much, much more concerned about Brian Colangelo. Brian Colangelo's got to fix this thing now, right? He's got to go, okay, well, we still need shooters,

but it's probably not going to be Erson. It's probably not going to be Markle-Bel. You've got to have shooters who can play defense. It shouldn't be. Right. I mean, like, that was an anomaly. It shouldn't be. What are you going to do with JJ? Yeah.

Who, I hope he gets his money. I hope everybody at the ringer gets their money. But you've got to figure that out, right? And then what do you do with Fultz? Now, I think you could make a case, right? You can imagine a world where Fultz becomes like a starting quality guard contributor on a team. I think if you try to imagine a world where Markell Fultz is like an all-star caliber guard, I have a hard time imagine it.

Well, do you think maybe if he goes somewhere else where, like, there's less pressure? I guess it's a lot of pressure right now. You're a good team in the market. Philly needs to really ascertain whether they think he can do it there. And I think the thing that scares me, not even a little, like a lot about him, is the fact that he's not even attempting the shots. You got to put him up. He's pulling a Simmons.

You got to put him up at least. And Simmons, too. I mean, your guy shoots with the wrong hand. Kevin O'Connor, do you have an opinion on which hand Ben Simmons should chew with? The right hand. So the Sixers need to make a determination what they think Fultz can give them. And if it doesn't rise to whatever level they have internally, that they think they can build a roster around it easily

with, you know, I obviously need to add shooters and someone who can create a shot. And I think they need to try and move him and bamboozle another team into seeing the potential there and picking him up before. Here's the thing. Like, if you're another team,

how much value you're not going to give them value. I know. That's the thing. The trade, you know, idea I put in our article last month and we talked about one of the live shows. I don't know. We do so much stuff. I forget which one of was.

You do a lot of shows. You have no content right. There is. But the deal was something along the lines of like, Fultz, Covington, Sarich, two drafts and sashes, including Jonah Bolden. Jared Bayliss, a salary filler, and the 2018 Lakers pick for Kauai. And like, you could say that makes... That's a shit.

It makes... I mean, like, how do you feel about the Kauai rumor, though? Like, because the Sixers doctor, what do you think about that? Well, so the Sixers' Doctor situation in Philadelphia has always been a point of consternation. Look at what happens, right? Like, Nerlans comes in, Nerlans takes a year off. And Bede comes in, and Bid takes two years. off. Simmons comes in, Simmons

takes his first year off. Fultz with his shoulder is either a mental or physical redshirt, but either way, like, functionally, he didn't really play. So this is like a point of concern in Philadelphia. So with Kauai saying the thing was like, it was

his dog, the Sixers guy, right, was doing his rehab or something. Yeah, and my point was, is that if you're the Spurs, you might not want to take that deal because you were talking about the concern Philly might have with Foltz, but why wouldn't the 29 other teams also share that concern? They know how inconsistent Covington is. They know that there's no certainty with anything

that they'd be getting back in a deal like that. Well, Kauai can be like, I want to go to Philly. That would be the idea. Sure. He even pushes it. I mean, that would be great. But right now, like Woj said, he's not available right now at this moment. I would take Kauai.

I would take LeBron. I mean, they obviously need more because as we just said, the Celtics are set up for quite a long time. And it drives me fucking insane that when we're sitting there watching the Celtics who are good without their two, ostensibly their two best players, to watch Jalen Brown. In Philly, my friends from Philly makes them angry

how much I like Jalen Brown. But he's objectively fucking good. And the Sixers have a guy who is objectively a question mark. That's not a very objective. That's very nice way to say. Thank you. What made it even worse

in that series was the fact that Jason Tatum was absolutely going ham. Here's the guy that you traded for. Yeah. What did I say? Did I say Jalen Brown? Yeah.

I don't know. Jason Tatum. I mean, it's what makes it really difficult and like, so what do you do? What do you do? What would you do about the Fult situation? Let's say they make the determination that he's going to be

a lee average starting guard or something. I mean, then you have to move. If that's the calculus, but then again, what are you getting him back? What are you getting back? And for me, it's already a sunk cost, but the Jason Tatum thing

just drives me absolutely that. It drives me insane because he's good right now and he's going to be good for a long time and don't know what's going to happen. And so are they out of picks, the Sixers? Did they have any more future picks come in early? They have a Lakers picked this year.

That's it. It's currently the 10th best us. The Celtics have like three or four more these bad boys coming. The Celtics in 2019 had a top one protected Kings pick that if it's the number one pick, they didn't send to get the Sixers pick

and they also have a top eight protected grizzlies pick that becomes unprotected in 2020. I think, Gahn, what you got to hope is like some of these young guys, get some ego things going. You guys start spewing that negativity in the air. That's your bet. Well, Philadelphia,

a good chance of that happening for negativity in the air. Talk about some of these other teams that got bounced out because I can't do it. Is it really negative, though? What, is it's so far ahead of schedule? Yeah, but the thing is, you look at, yeah, but like, okay, so Fultz, question mark, J.J. Redick, Free Agent. He'll be back, I think. Okay, fine.

How many years and for how much? Exactly. Sure. But go ahead. McConnell, unrestricted free agent, 2012. 2019. Basically an NBA All-Star. Yes. Continue.

Simmons restricted free agent in 2020. I'm saying, like, if looking at to assemble your team, Fultz was going to be a core, I mean, the core, I mean, the core. crucial part. And this affects your window because if he's not that guy, you need to go and find that guy somewhere. And despite what I just said about like their far ahead of schedule, like this could be in B's healthiest season. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. I don't like how this podcast has been hijacked.

I will say, I would take their feature over the map. So like, you know, it's okay. Or the next for example. What about art? So for other like take your what about their window conversation and apply it to the Toronto Raptors. What are they doing? because the Raptors now, they had Dwayne Casey,

who could be the end up being the coach of the year, and he just got fired, which Paolo O'Getti willed into existence. He's spoken into existence, just like LeVar Ball would have spoken into existence. He wanted this to happen. It might actually happen. I feel bad for Dwayne Casey.

We all do. But it was time, I think, frankly, for something to change there. I was surprised they brought him back before. I was surprised as well. That said, best season in Raptors history, it was time. You have to blow it up.

This is their ceiling. I mean, like, blow it on. There's a volcano on the television. I think you got to blow it up. When they made that run from 25 down with the Rosen on the bench, that's a warning flag. It's time to go.

I will say, like, the one thing about it, like blowing it up. Like, they already have the young players. It's not like they're like, oh, they're going to be bad for a while. They got young players, you're going to get better. I think to me, like, I would go smaller. I would start OG, start Pascal, get a new coach. Probably empower. You love small balls.

much. Well, I'd probably empower DeRote, probably move Lowry, empower Wright and Van Vleet. And like, yeah, their future may not be great,

but they got a good young team. But what are you getting for a 32-year-old point guard making over $30 million. Like, so my thing is, is like, one year ago,

I wrote to blow it up article and it seems stupid. Like, I felt like that was a better time to do it after resigning everybody doing it during the season. But their season was so great

that it was worth sticking with it and continuing moving forward and trying to build and maximize the next two years. I just don't know what you're going to for a 32-year-old point guard who's probably not built for a long

sustainable career making over $30 million the next two season in a league where every team basically has a point card. I just don't know what there is. The thing to me is like it doesn't even matter because you have three or four young guys you're going to be long-term stars in the league so you don't need big foundational pieces. It's going to trade for him though. That's my, there might not be a single team in the league that would trade for Kyle Lowry. Like there really might not be a single one. Phoenix, maybe?

I don't think so. Because McDonald's jobs in the line. Phoenix can aim for bigger fish than Kyle Lowry, I think. think. There's so many, I mean, part of the problem is the age. Part of the problem is the money. Part of the problem,

I think the bigger problem is that point card is so deep, right? If you're gonna operate a point card. The tough thing, too, is she's not multi-positionally, so small. She really can't play with her point guard. Look this up. This makes me feel better about the Sixers

as I think about the Raptors, because really the Raptors, like, it sucks. They had their moment, and I think that moment is over. Whatever my moment was. Here's the thing, though. They'll come back and win 52 games.

Yeah, but what does that mean? Exactly. I'm just saying, like, as a Knicks fan, I'll take a, I'll take a bunch of 50 wins seasons that don't go anywhere. Like in Roa? I'll take it. Like, the math's only 50 games for like six more years probably. I wrestle with this sometimes because there are markets, right, where you go, you know, 45 to 50 something wins and a couple of playoffs series and you're going to pack the building and people are going to feel good, but you're never going to be a real championship contender. That's good enough. That's okay. For me, I'd probably get bored of that eventually. Like, if you were a Raptors fan, wouldn't you look at, Even with Enverrier just wrote a really smart piece about like everything in the East goes through LeBron regardless. But take LeBron out of the conference, right, and toss them into the Western Conference just for a second. We just spent a large portion of this program saying the Celtics and the Sixers, mostly the Celtics fine. But the Celtics and the sisters are positioned to dominate the Eastern Conference for the next however many years. Even without LeBron, they're fucked, the Raptors. With LeBron, they're extra fucked.

Well, I would say philosophically. So I was in Dallas. The mouse won 50 games for like 10 years in a row if I won a championship. It wasn't boring, man, it was great. Like, they were once the playoffs, it was some fun series. They did squeak out the one.

But I'm saying, like, that happened way at the end of it. Like, I still had a great time beforehand. Like, what do you get? Life was too short. We got to win a championship every year. 30 teams in the league there. That's my thing with Toronto. It's like, you know, last year I wrote the blow it up thing.

And this year, it's like, I don't know if there's a way to blow it up. If there is great, then do it. If you can trade Kyle Lauri for something that makes sense, something you can trade De Rosen for, then do it. pull the plug, just do it. But if you can't do it, then what you need to do is build towards the future while trying to maximize these next two years. And you know what?

If DeRose and Valchunis, Kyle Lowry, all those guys hit free agency. And if they walk or you trade them at the deadline that year, then so be it. But do what you can to maximize the two years. Right now, OG is 20, Pascal's 24, Banffleafleaf is 24, Delon Wright's 26, Pearl is 22. You've got a good young team No reason to panic In worst case scenario Lowry and Rosen are gone

We have big gun guys To build going forward I think probably the most damaging thing Is just like the emotional toll That this series took on them Because this was really the year They made all the changes They adjusted the offense

They got to Rosen and Lowry To spread the offense around They got good minutes out of Valenchunis The young guys came up All of a sudden there's a bench They have perimeter defenders With Van Vleet long guys.

They could throw different looks at you. And they got wrecked. They got wrecked. They did literally everything that needed to happen for this year to go as well as it did. It went perfect for them up until the playoffs against the Bronjames. Okay, so I went and looked at basketball reference. So before the 2016 conference finals year, rappers of around 20 years, they'd want one playoff series in 20 years.

So like, this was a great run. Like, it's a weird mindset we have, like one series in 20 years. And they won their first game one. It's like five years. It's like it's a great run. But it's also about, you know, you mentioned all the youth and their team. Like, let's say they didn't have all that impressive youth. Well, then it's time to think about what we need to build for sustaining winning into the 2020s.

But, you know, they do have a solid future outlook. I'm not sure. And any of those guys are really that impressive to me aside from OGN and O'B? Like they're all right. He's like 26 years old right now. He's not that young. Casey, were you, when you were saying buttonholes, about just you speculating?

you think that's going to happen for sure. That's what I heard. Okay. That's actually, I think, a good, that's a perfect team for him. It'd be a good spot for him and maybe a good coach for them. But then he's also what lost to LeBron and two sweeps last year. Yeah, I mean, it's different teams, though. Still, but the optics of it are great.

One thing I'm curious about, though, is like with Coach Bud, he's a guy that never seemed like super composed and sidelines. I'm not sure maybe that's the right fit for Toronto, but who knows. They like that. Maybe they need that. He's a really good coach. Maybe they need somebody to like lose. I want everybody to. Maybe you need that. I want everybody to start panicking.

I want to talk about the other two teams that got bounced out of the semifinals as well. And what we think about them as they move forward with the Pelicans and the Jazz. Between those two, what do you think about their future prospects? They were both successful seasons, surprising seasons, but clearly both teams need more. The Jazz definitely need more offense. And the Pelicans, I mean, maybe it's just a boogie solve, but boogie's also coming off in Achilles and he's going to, he's a large dude to begin with. in a way they were playing better with Adam.

Yeah. So how do we feel about those two teams? Well, to me, I did an article about the Pelicans after they lost. I was saying, if it's possible, it's a lot of salary cap, to me, you've got to go boogie for someone like Otto Porter. You've got to get another premier defender in there who can play with the World State. I think Davis at the five was the way to go. I mean, especially even without the injuries, like,

I just watched Wesley Matthews for three years after the Achilles, man. It's tough. And then Wesley works way harder than Boogie. Name one guy who came back at anything. approximating the similar level. A lot less weight too, right? I mean, like, he's a smaller dude. Like, he's a big guy to begin with. Yeah. I mean, like, keeping the pounds off, not easy and doing it with coming off an Achilles, that's going to be a struggle. And you're right. Like, I just wonder, like, athletically, what's he going to look like? Yeah. I'm reading straight from an article we did

during the series. This is great. Players who have ruptured their Achilles return to the court with varied results. Elton Brand and Wesley Matthews were never the same. Dominique Wilkins played seven more, high-level seasons. There's like a mixed bag, you know, with guys who return, it seems like if you're an elite athlete, like Dominique Wilkins, maybe you can do it. But some of those guys that aren't, it's tough. Like you said, Charks,

boogie carries a lot of weight. So if you're New Orleans, maybe you do try to go for that two, three-year deal. But if you're at Boogie's camp, you're like, no, no, no, no. We need to launch them. And even in those best case scenarios, Dominique Wilkins, for instance,

it takes over a season to come back. Yes. Like, he'll play when he gets healthy and is clear to play, but he, the rust will be thick and very red. Like, it's going to take a while for him to, so you're able to say, okay, this is his consistent level of play. And we just don't know what that's going to look like. The history is not good. I don't know what the pelicans do, though. I think they, I don't know how they don't resign him, right?

I mean, like, if, like, who knows, maybe Boogie wants to go somewhere else. But my guess is, like, you stay put because, like, if you're the pelicans, what else are you going to do? There's nothing. It's kind of, it's, it's the reason that Drew Holiday was offered an extension.

It's the reason Ray John Rondo is on this, is the point guard on this team is because they had to do it. Yeah. So I sort of path dependency.

Once I started on this path, it kind of closed their options. Yeah. Then with like Etouan Moore playing out of position on that team, there's not, look,

there's not a lot of options for New Orleans. And that's why it's like, if you're them, I would hope, you know, if I'm New Orleans, I would hope

that there's a team willing to sign and trade for Boogie. but if you're the Washington Wizards, why would you give up Otto Porter a really good 3-Inde wings slash forward for a guy coming off of torn Achilles? Is it just to make John Wall happy?

No, you're not going to do that. I just don't know how many teams out there would want Boogie, which is why I think ultimately he just ends up back there maybe on a two, three-year deal unless your Dallas Mavericks charts are well. That'd be fantastic. That would be a strong connection. That will go well with Rick and Boogie.

It's going to go really, really well. Real strong connection with Boogie's age. I'm running point center and that's what's going to happen. Nothing to worry about there. What about the jazz? How do we feel about the jazz and their prospects? I like that jazz team. They're fun to watch.

I think that they had a better season than a lot of people anticipated. But clearly they need more offense. It's not even Mitchell's team already. Yeah. Well, I think chaos is going to laugh at me. To me, you have to move off favors at the four. It's probably time to get a little smaller. You love the small ball.

I think like two bigs in this league. It's only so far I was going to go. especially the Rockets the more than your conference. Yeah. Probably gone anyway, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I think with Mitchell and Gobert, that's a, that's a good start. That's a really good court. Like, when you hit on a player like Mitchell down at 13, 14, 15, it's crazy.

It can really alter the trajectory of your franchise. And I think it has clearly. So, I mean, the question is, it really ameliorates some of the questions around the Dante. Okay, so here's my question, though. Like, do you think Mitchell is good enough for guys to be like, oh, go play in Salt Lake's on a contract there? No. Can he get guys, he's not that good? No.

Is anyone that good? No, you're not going to solo? I mean, he's a star. He's a star player, but is he a superstar player of that color? I mean, it's a pretty town. I don't know. You know, in a way, you know, like, we joke and we say no, but maybe like in a cap environment where there's not a lot of teams of max space and Utah is the only team coming at you

with the ability to offer the full max, then maybe Mitchell is good enough. Maybe Quinn Snyder's good enough. They got a clean sheet coming up. They'll have room to make some money of people. Only 75 million guaranteed for this summer, then only 45 million for the following summer. Granted, that's obviously going to change with guys who might resign. Dennis Lunds has done a fantastic job with that team.

I mean, let's not forget the great Joe Ingalls. Jengles is still there. He's locked up for a long time. Jangling Joe has a legitimately impressive playoff reel. Like, it's legitimately good. I talked about this. He's roasted teams. I talked about this with Shay on last week's podcast.

Jingles was one of Shay's guys who in the playoffs has helped his reputation the most. During last season and then this regular season, I probably would have been like Joe Engels agnostic. This playoffs was fair. He was excellent. He was excellent. Now, I went back and watched that Take Hunter thing y'all did.

And I was like Joe Engels, like, this guy's a genius. But does Joe Ingalls look like an NBA player, though? This is a bit you're done with Vernon or something? Yeah. Yeah. He's six foot eight. Of course he looks like an NBA player. He's tall.

He looks like why Verno doesn't think he does. Yeah, of course he looks like an NBA player. I mean, he was 6-2-1. Yeah, he's freaking huge. Well, no, well, what does an NBA player look like? What does an NBA player look like? That's for tomorrow's podcast with Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor. I want to thank everybody for listening.

Jonathan Charks literally flew in from Dallas for this. Flying back right after the show. Jason, Jason Concepcion brought Milton in. Kevin O'Connor brought his fresh new haircut. Isaac Lee is always here holding it down. We want to encourage everybody to check out all of our NBA content on the ringer.com. We're going to have a ton of stuff for you guys.

And of course, her usual NBA show has a ton of stuff to talk about all week long. We've got a live lottery show on Tuesday night, group chat, Wednesday night for Thursday. Draft class, two thirds of the draft class sitting right here in the podcast studio right now. And we've also got Bill Simmons. He's going to talk a lot of NBA basketball. We've got NBA desktop two times a week. You got to make sure you check that out. Best show on TV.

Next week, Isaac and I will be back. Isaac will be in L.A. I will be in Cleveland because. there's going to be basketball there in theory and I'm going to go and check it out. So we'll have a heat check from Cleveland next week. Thank you everybody for listening. We'll be back next week. Bye.