The Ringer NBA Show - Celtics Struggle, Westbrook Bricks, and More Playoffs (Ep. 100)

Episode Date: April 20, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss the Celtics' struggles (5:00), Al Horford's disappearing act (11:00), Russell Westbrook's fourth-quarter collapse (18:55), John Wall's entertaining style (26:00), the Warriors' winning ways (32:00), Raptors-Bucks (39:00), Spurs-Grizzlies (42:00), and the Brooklyn Nets' playoff impact (50:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Varnett. Joining me on this Thursday is Kevin O'Connor from the ringer.com. Typically joins me on Tuesdays, but he is witness to the Celtics going down 02 to the Bulls the other night. Kevin! What's going on, Chris? Feels like Tuesday. Well, it does feel like Tuesday. And I had to bring you on today because you were in that arena the other night as the Celtics lost a game two to the Chicago Bulls.

your immediate reaction after that final buzzer went off. Uh-oh. They're in big trouble. That was my immediate reaction, Chris. They look like the eight seed. It's as simple as that, really. All right, so everybody is doing the post-mortem on them, right? This is what they don't have.

It's really Isaiah and nothing else. Maybe they should have made a deal at the deadline. I'm skittish to do that, Kevin. And we have a very big sample size that the bulls are not as good as they have been playing so far. So should I just go ahead and say, all right, the Celtics are in massive trouble and they ain't coming back in this thing? Or do I heed to, we just had a way bigger sample than a few games that the Celtics are not as bad as they have been so far. And the Bulls are not nearly as good as they have been so far. And so this thing could get evened out.

and a lot of the grand statements that we are making about the Celtics could end up looking foolish. Should I make grand statements about the Celtics or is there, what possibility is there, those come back to looking foolish? I think you're okay to make grand statements. And I think, you know, you asked earlier, is it like which one is it? I think it's a little bit of both. I think, for one, the playoffs are a different, it's a different monster, right? I think sometimes styles of play don't translate quite as well into the postseason.

and sometimes teams, you know, they end up looking better in the postseason for, you know, myriads of reasons. It can be a wide-ranging list of reasons. One of them, I think, is a guy like Rajan Rondo. Like, I wrote this on the ringer on Monday or Tuesday, whatever day the game was, Wednesday morning. I think, I think Rondo, it looks like he knows the entire Celtics playbook. It looks like to me that he knows everything that's coming. Like when they go into their side-to-side motion offense, they've been jumping passing lanes,

like at the perfect time. I described Rondo. He looks like a NFL safety sometimes just the way he probes and then kind of pounces on the ball as it's being passed. And the rest of the bowls are doing that too. And one thing I found interesting was after the game, Dwayne Wade, I don't know what the question was that he was asked. But he basically said that like when he was with the heat, Rondo knew everything the heat were doing. He said they would mess up your first option, your second option. And then he went on to say, we know we can go to him to ask him anything.

he's watching film all the time. And that kind of solidifies my thought that he does know what's going on. He played under Brad Stevens for a year and a half. And I think that's been a significant advantage for the Bulls on the defensive end. Because look, if the Celtics can't score, they haven't been able to get stops on the defensive end either. So they need to, I realize this is kind of a general thing to say. But because their defense hasn't been great, they need their offense to be clicking on all cylinders. Because if they're not getting stops, they're not getting out in transition.

and they need to score in the half court and they haven't been able to do that. I will say that the reason I asked you that is because I get gun shy about making grand statements about things because in some ways last year's playoffs and especially the Oklahoma City Golden State because everybody put Golden State to bed after if we go back in time, everybody's got to remember this because it all got lost because it became a joke and a meme and everything that they blew a 3-1 lead against the Cavaliers. In that series before, they lost game three to the Oklahoma City Thunder by 28 points. They turned around and lost game four by 24 points.

And they were down three one in that series. And it was all this, there's a problem with the Warriors and steps banged up or what is it? And what's going on here? What's going on here? And it was, I mean, we had just watched a team win by 20 plus points against the Warriors two times in a row. And of course, as we know, as history tells it, the Warriors came back. But I can't imagine the statements that were made after the Thunder, you know, that game

four against Golden State last year, the series that almost gets forgotten because of what happened in the finals. And so I don't know, man, I may be the only one. I'm not, I, this is what I kind of feel like. I have no particular serious rooting interest in this. I feel like the Celtics have missed a ton of shot. that I'm not saying all of them would go in, but a higher percentage than what have so far.

And that Bulls team, which you do not look at, I mean, we all said at the beginning of the season, would be shooting deficient with their major players. I feel like they've hit every damn thing they've shot. And so I don't think it's over yet. I don't think it's over yet either, Chris. I think, you know, when it comes to making grand statements, I think it's true that right now it looks like the Celtics have serious.

chemistry issues. Right now, it looks like something is tremendously wrong with the way they're playing. They're not playing the same type of style. They're not playing with the same efficiency and flow that they did in the regular season. I think that's totally fair to say. But the thing, you know, when making those statements, we always have to remember is like, that can change quickly. And they could come on on Friday night, guns blazing. They could look like the team that everybody was expecting coming into the series. Or they might not. They might keep sputtering. That's always possible. It's always possible that for whatever reason the bulls are just playing at this tremendous level and we have to give them credit to it's not just about the Celtics sucking it's about the bulls being pretty good as well and it's possible either way i think i don't think the series is over at all i'd be surprised if the Celtics lose both in chicago i think we're at least going to have a game five in this series um but at the same time i i do think it is worth looking at certain issues like with them like their shot selection has been really bad you're right that some shots that they would normally hit just haven't gone, but they've also had very poor shot selection.

They're taking shots early in the clock that they have no business taking. There's this one play I had in the article where Jay Crowder grabbed an offensive rebound, and then he dribbled to the right corner of the three-point line, just jacked up a three with like 22-second stuff. You can't do that. You can't do that if you're Stephen Curry. You can't do that if you're Jay Crowder. And those are the plays that they need to remove.

And here's the other thing, Kevin, whether you're talking about the Warriors, whether they're talking about the rocket, you're talking about the new, NBA that shoots a lot of threes, of which, of course, the Celtics are, you know, they're a three dependent team. Those teams also go to the basket. And nobody goes to the basket except for Thomas, right? They got to have somebody going to the hoop. I mean, nobody takes any free throws besides Thomas.

And you can't just be totally dependent. You're 13 out of 19 for them in game too. I mean, it's crazy, though, because beyond. the whole not being able to get the requisite spacing that you need if you're never a threat to drive to the basket. Beyond that, in the playoffs especially, and we are seeing it with these teams going to the line so many times in some of these games, getting the team in the bonus and getting the team in the bonus early is such a massive advantage. And they have no chance at doing that because nobody goes to the damn free throw line. Because they just whip it around and shoot a three.

they need that secondary score and I know, you know, along those lines, I've read a lot or seen a lot of tweets the past couple of days like, oh, this is why the Celtic shooter traded the Nets picks to get, you know, Paul George or to get Jimmy Butler. Well, even if those guys were theoretically available, right, the point kind of is, like, at least what I take is that one of those guys wasn't enough. This team is good. It's a good team, but they're not a great team. And I don't think those guys would have put them over the. top either. Would they probably have been beaten the Bulls if they had Paul George? Yeah, they probably would have. I don't think they would have went down 02. But at the same time, I think the playoffs have shown that this team is more far off than people actually think it is, I think, sometimes from the outside looking in. And that's why for them, it's all about timing with the move they make. If they did a move now, they wouldn't have cap space in the summer because they need two guys. They can't just

settle for one guy. That's not close to enough. They would never be close enough. They wouldn't, They would never be close enough. They wouldn't have enough to get where they want to get. They need two. And that's why they waited. And I think we're seeing in the first round right now that even with that one extra guy, yeah, it would not be enough. So I'm just a little surprised that the angle has been more so. This is why they should have done it.

Actually, the way I look at it is that this is why they didn't do it. Also need to shine a spotlight on the guy they did get and they did spend a lot of money on. and they did woo in free agency, which is Horford. Horford can't just be a role player. I mean, seven points. Come on. Come on. I mean, you could throw out anybody out there that'll get you seven.

That can't be so, right? I mean, maybe he's not going to be your reliable second big score every night. But damn, man, he's got to at least get you 15. He's got to at least get you double digits. Seven? You got to get more out of him. So he's, look, he's still. good defensively, still a good passer, still does a lot of good things on the floor.

But with him is, I'm just surprised they don't run more pick and roll with him because he was so great in Atlanta on the pick and pop or he could score on the pick and roll or he could drive after picking and pop. He could pass out of the pick and roll on those little short rolls. I'm just surprised they don't use him more in that. I think I think I think. I think. I think it's all of the reason, and this is what gets highlighted in the playoffs, because I'm

seeing it all the time with Mike Conley and Mark Assault. That is an extremely effective thing during the regular season. And during the postseason, what happens is these defenders just decide, F it, we ain't even guarding you on the wing. And that wing defender comes to help every time. And it puts you in, right? And so the guys, they don't care if Marcus Smart shoots. They don't care.

And Avery Bradley, he's not knocking down shots like crazy. I mean, those guys have to be able to be honored. He's still a threat, though, at least. You know, in order for that to work, and in order for them to be able to just run a pick and roll, because otherwise you can get three defending two, and you can't run that play, you know what I mean? Not with some kind of big-time effectiveness,

unless that guy, you know, that you can kick out to, is going to be knocking down shots. It's a problem, you know? Yeah, so I like Bradley as a shooter. I think he's a good spot of shooter, but you're right about Marcus Smart. You know, they're really not defending him. They're kind of giving him the Tony Allen treatment.

Not all the time, but here and there, they were just not defending him when he was spotting up a three-point line. I think he can hit shots. I mean, he's not like a 20% three-word shooter. He's like a 29% three-point shooter. So he's bad, but he's not horrific. But you can live with that. You'd rather have that shot being taken than Isaiah Thomas, you know, rumbling down the lane, drawing a foul. And Jay Crowder, his percentages are great, but I don't think he's nearly as good of a shooter.

as his numbers show. I think he's more like a 36, 30% three-point shooter than he is like 40% on the whole season. So yeah, you're right. Like that does limit their ability to shoot the ball. But at the same time, there are lineups they put out there that have shooting. They can put out shooting lineups. And look, it's not even just the playoff.

It's just a whole regular season. I'm surprised they haven't done it more with Al Horford. And he does run some pick and roll. It's like his second, second highest most use. play according to synergy. But I thought like it would easily be the top play that they would run for him. And it didn't happen all season long. And it's not happening now in the playoffs. And that's just a little surprising to me. And not only that, but you know, even if you don't finish the play with the pick and roll, maybe you end up getting a switch if Chicago is switching the screen. And maybe

it puts a bigger guy onto Isaiah Thomas or a smaller guy onto L. Horford. And that's the part that kind of perplexes me. And I think if I'm Brad Stevens, that's something I would try to go to more in game three, just to experiment a little bit, because they need to get away from, I think, their typical game plan. Because like I said earlier, it seems like the Bulls know everything that's coming. And I think that's a sign that you need to shake things up quite a little bit, in addition to running your regular stuff with more crisp actions. Last thing on this particular series, I will say I was having a conversation with my buddies yesterday and just trying to come up with explanations like everybody else, like what is going on

here? And, you know, there is a possibility that with young teams that don't have a lot of playoff experience, and that is exactly the category that the Celtics fall into, that they still play hard more regularly during the regular season. It matters more. And then these teams that are these grizzled veterans, like the Rondos and the Wade, they really don't give a crap about the regular season at all. And so you have these guys that have logged immense amount of playoff minutes. Like I saw the other night, they put up a graphic. Wade has more playoff minutes than the whole Celtics roster combined.

And so you've got a bunch of guys, you've got the three biggest guys on that team that they just, they didn't care. You know what I mean? If they lose a regular season game, whatever, right? And so maybe there isn't, maybe like in the end when you get down to a series like this, there isn't that much difference. It is not, if you got that Bulls team to play all year, that they would have won more games than just 41 stupid games like they did.

But that now it's time to crank it up. And, like, I mean, it's one thing to crank it up. It's another thing that Dwayne Wade turning into, like, Reggie Miller from three-point range in the playoffs every year is just like the damnedest thing I've ever seen. He's like seriously a 50% three-point shoot. for like the last three seasons. It's crazy. And maybe it is.

Maybe they just turned it up when it's time to turn up. And then during the course of a regular season, a young team cares more often night in and night out. And that's why there is such a stark contrast between the records, yet maybe that shouldn't be so. What do you think? On that note, Chris, so yesterday on Twitter, I saw a little bit out there like Brad Stevens is only two in ten in the playoffs.

now was he overrated or you know do we do we overrate him i saw a little bit of that yesterday should should Celtics fans you know not not consider brad stevens a great coach that everybody thinks he is and it's like uh yeah i think the big part of it is exactly as you touched on the fact that this team plays hard consistently throughout the course of the season that they that they are consistently clicking on all cylinders throughout the year that these guys are maximized they're maximized to their potential much like brad stevens did at butler and then in the playoffs I think that's when their lack of talent really starts to show. But the fact is that throughout the entire year,

Brad Stevens is putting these guys under great positions to succeed with his system. He's maximizing their individual talents, no different than he did at Butler with those teams. And I think, look, would it be better if Brad Stevens had a 10 and 2 playoff program instead of 2 and 10? Of course it would be. But the fact is, is that I think in a sense that this roster, individually, these guys have been a little bit overrequered.

rated and expectations have been set too high. We said before, you know, the playoffs started that this is one of the worst one seeds we've ever seen. And it wasn't because their win total necessarily. It wasn't because they're advanced stats. It was because the individual, individual players up and down the roster. I think the two main reasons this team is the one seed is Isaiah Thomas, obviously, and two is Brad Stevens for maximizing the individual talents on this team. But in the playoffs, it doesn't always translate, and they need more for it to translate over the course of a seven-game series. And I don't put that at all on Brad Stevens, not even a little bit. I think the disparity between the regular season and playoff play just shows how good he is in the regular season.

Just needs a talent for it to carry over. Yeah, because when you're to the point right now where, like you said, if you hadn't been paying attention, you just watch, I mean, anybody that had never watched basketball before is just watch the first two games, would rather have Robin Lopez than Al Horford. And that tells you everything you need to know about the way this series is gone. I mean, that's, that's unbelievable. But Lopez has just destroyed them.

Destroyed him. And so. Yeah, he looks like, I tweeted it the other night. If it was your first time watching basketball, you'd think he was like the most unstoppable player of all time. Because, Kevin, here's the thing. You could totally foresee Rondo being really good. You could certainly foresee Butler being the best guy on the court.

You could certainly foresee Dwayne Wade being awesome. Like, that wouldn't be, it's not an outlandish thing to think. that Dwayne Wade could be awesome in playoff games. But, like, when you're talking Robin Lopez and frigging Bobby Portis and Paul Zipser and whoever, like, come on, man. I mean, Celtics aren't getting it out of their secondary guys. They're not getting it from those guys off the bench and the secondary players in the starting unit. They need it. The Bulls are getting it.

The Celtics aren't. By the way, you wrote that the Bulls should blow it up. I just wanted to bring that up. I know you're about to kill me on Westbrook. So before that, I just want to tell you. you that I defended the Bulls not blowing it up. Hey man, I think a lot of teams should blow it up. I know.

The 26able. All right. All right. Russell Westbrook, he broke the record for points in a triple double, 51 points. Took him 43 shots to do it. The Thunder lost 115 to 11. Russell, how would you grade, when you look at your line on the box score, how would you grade the line? I don't give a fuck about the line.

You lost. I know that I know you loved this because I have been a, I have been a the supporting cast stinks. I'd rather him take the shots. And that fourth quarter was indefensible. I mean, he was just. Now, in fairness, there are a lot of times he has won doing that, right? That's why they have the record they do is because there's a lot of times where the fourth quarter is just him. But that was one of those where the fourth quarter is just him and he wasn't getting

it done and it was just a, I mean, it was just unbelievable. He was just taking every shot that like he got his hands on. It was bananas. No, no passes. It's unbelievable. So a little thing I'm kind of, I think, satisfied about from last night is like a lot of people on Twitter and Reddit are talking about the amount of times he missed a wide open Doug McDermott. And like you look, you watch, You rewatch the replays. It's like Russell Westbrook on one of them took a totally contested three-pointer off the dribble when McDermott was one pass away,

wide open on the wing, when he's three of four shooting the three tonight, when he's historically going back to college and high school and still in the NBA, a tremendous three-point shooter. And you miss him when he's wide open. That play for me summarizes the Russell Westbrook experience. And he's exciting.

He's one of the funest players in the league to watch. But that's not a, that's not, that's not a winning formula. And I think we're seeing that now in the playoffs. We saw the signs on the regular season. We've seen it historically. I wrote about it before the season that these guys that have these high usage rates just don't usually have long playoff runs.

And that's what we're seeing with Westbrook. They're going to get bounced in the first round. They might get swept. And Russell Westbrook is taking it to an even higher level in terms of doing it all by himself. And you can't do that. You need to lean on your other guys. And they're better when they do that.

You got to concede. He was amazing in the first three quarters. He was. Oh, yeah. He was awesome. And then he abandoned that and just went into hell mode, right? And if you told me that he doesn't know Doug McDermott's name, it would not surprise me, right? Me either, man.

But, and what was it? Was it 18? I think it was four for 18. Is that the number I'm seeing everywhere? I mean, that is hard. That is hard to take 18 shots in 12 minutes. That's a tough thing to pull. off. That just tells you that Joker was shooting it every damn time. It was unbelievable.

But I am one of those that I love to witness it because sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. I get that it might not be the best way to play basketball. I will concede that to you. I also am wildly entertained. Mike, you put up last night. It was a good line that Russell Westbrook is the Leroy Jenkins, right? Yes, he is Leroy Jenkins of basketball. Comes up, let's do this. Right, and this is literally the perfect example of you and I, Kevin. I'm the guy that loves Leroy Jenkins, and you're one of the nerds on the headset going, Damn it, Leroy!

Hey, no, that's not true. That's not true. Back in my Halo 3 days, playing with my friends, shout out Bill and Jordan, playing Halo 3. Like, there's so many fun styles of play to play in video games. I like Leroy Jenkins. He was cool before memes went mainstream, man. back making the you're the man now dog days of the internet don't like kevin you you are the guy you are the guy on the headset going damn it leroy

nah yeah you are i'm i like all all depends on hey man when it comes to video games like when i used to play all the time it's all about the team strategy whether you're camping and hiding like a little noob hiding in the corner with your shotgun i'm cool with it as long as the whole team's doing it or you just guys are going out there guns blazing like leroy jenkins that's cool too. And in fairness, and for anybody that happens to be listed, this, and live under the rock for the last decade, type in Leroy Jenkins on YouTube, and you'll see the video we're talking about. But in fairness, much like Leroy Jenkins, it was not, it's not the greatest strategy. It is insanely entertaining, yet not the greatest strategy. And I don't really care if they win

or lose anyway, so I'm just here for the fun. So I hope he shoots it 75 times in the next game. and and just comes to the game like the next step obviously is for him to just be shirtless walking into the arena because he's wearing next to nothing Chris anyway I can't I can't stop thinking about how like I don't know what year it was last year two years ago when like there's a lot of talk it's like stephen curry taking all these long threes going to be a good influence on kids watching the game are they going to start jacking up threes from a young age is that good for the future of the game of basketball and it's like Um,

Stefan Curry is a pretty tremendous player. And I, this is kind of a hot take, but like, I'd, I'd rather kids be emulating Steph than I would be than emulating Russell Westbrook. And I'm just a little surprised, like with the way the game of basketball has changed that that conversation hasn't

necessarily come up. Look, I think Westbrook's a great player to emulate it. He's become an incredible player. People should follow his example in terms of making improvements to his game. But I just think it's a little odd that that conversation was so prominent with Stefan Curry, but not so much with Russell.

Westbrook. Maybe it's because we've, we've never seen a guy like Curry before, whereas we've seen former versions of Westbrook and guys like Alan Iverson. So we've kind of seen it before. Listen, I am in favor of the Curry effect on kids because what I have found in my own circumstance is that it keeps those kids excited about their ability to do something that an NBA player can do. You got to remember, I grew up with Michael Jordan.

It became very apparent, very quickly, that I could not do anything. thing that Michael Jordan did, most of which was dunk and that I would never be able to. So that's not nearly as fun. No, that's true. That's true. I think, you know, a lot of kids can grow up wanting to shoot, but not a lot of kids can grow up wanting to be able to dunk and just roll down the lane like a, you know, a wrecking ball like Russell Westbrook.

I think Westbrook's still going to win a game or two. And that's, I do think he's single-handedly going to win a game or two still. I do. I do. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if they pull one out. at all. Yeah. I mean, they were there last night. They had their chance. They had their chance on the road. And I'll get a little help from the officiating too and then maybe make it a closer serious. All right. Other things that took place last night, Kevin, I am in love with the

Wizards and John Wall. I find them to be, and I talked about this throughout the year on this podcast, I find them to be intensely entertaining. And obviously Wall and Beal as a combo last night with over 60 points combined was awesome. And he's just, he is like a real, real showman. You know, he's beating his chest. He's barking at Schrooter cursing him out. And he's going over to the stands, throwing his hands up in the, I mean, I love everything about them.

And it feels like, I don't know, like I read this morning, they have been a franchise over 50 years. And they have never been up to O in a postseason series. Can you believe that? That's really surprising. I mean, they just made history last night. That was something else, man. I didn't know that. Now, part of it's, I think the Hawks stink.

But I do, but I also think the wizards are intensely fun to watch. And I don't get the whole Budenhals are rolling out that starting lineup every time because it's awful. Dwight Howard doesn't look like Dwight Howard. That's for damn sure. Certainly doesn't look like a guy that was once a different. defensive player of the year and one of the best defenders in basketball. It just looks like a total shell of his form of himself. Even from what he was earlier in the season.

He looked horrible last night. It feels like Dwight needs to play against a sissy. And Gortad is no sissy. You know what I mean? That's when he gets... Polish hammer, man. Polish hammer. But that's when he gets his...

That's when he gets his ego up and his chest pumped out. And you know what I mean? Like it... He's not a... He's not a battler. He's not a fighter, you know, and sometimes, like, there's nothing, there's nothing the least bit soft about Gortot, right? He is, he's not there to be messed around with. And so, I don't know, kind of feel, I kind of feel like Dwight's a bully, right? Like, if he can bully you around, then if he's, if he can dominate you, then you get that best Dwight. But if you punch him in the mouth a couple times, you might not. And obviously, they have not gotten anything. close to great Dwight Howard. Right. That's the thing about

this Wizards team. They're tough. They have a lot of tough guys on their team. Cortot Morris, Wall, as you mentioned earlier, you know, really was a showman. Their bench was incredible last night defensively. They have a lot of tough players on that team. Big time. And I like that team a lot. I think they're

I do not think that series is going all that long. I will be surprised if the Hawks win both on their home court. I think the Wizard would probably take one there. Beal is, I'm sorry, Beal and Wall just as that combination. It's just, come on, it's going up against Dennis Schroeder and Tim Hardaway. I mean, that is, it's just, it's a bridge too far. Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I think the series would go six at most,

just the way the first two games have gone, just the way it looks like the Wizards are playing. Going forward, I think the Wizards are in good shape, but, you know, in the next round, they're going to need Otto Porter's shot to get back at the level it did earlier in the season. He's shooting like 33, 34% from 3 since the break when the past year prior or so from like the 2015 break, sorry, the 2016 break to the 2017 All-Star break. He shot like 45% from 3. They need to get him a little bit closer to that 40% because they need more weapons when it comes to the next round against Cleveland. But for now they're totally fine and they're unbelievable to watch. Warriors Blazers was the late game last night.

Warriors killed them. I mean, they beat them by 29. And the crazy stat from that is that no player on the team scored more than 20 points. I mean, they played with that Durant. They played with that Livingston. They had a couple other guys. Who was the other one? Barnes didn't play last night.

But, I mean, they won by almost 30 points and nobody scored over 20. So you had insane balance, insane defense. And I really wish the Blazers would have had NERCIT for this series because they have I mean like putting Noah Vonley out there they might as well put me out there Kevin it's just it's a waste of time and if they had Merkich I think it could have been a lot more fun

than what it's been because that was whatever the opposite of competition was that's what that was last night well it's I've seen this tweeted from other people before but I that sums it up a lot Javel McGee scored just as much as any Blazer did Harkless was the Blazers

was the Blazers highest scorer at 15 and McGee scored 15 last night for the war off the bench in only 13 minutes, 15 points and 13 minutes on 7 of 7 shooting. Pretty damn good for a guy who one year ago people kind of thought was like one of the laughing stocks of the league and now he's an important rotation player on the best team in basketball. That's for sure. All right, two other series that we need to get to before.

Actually, we'll go to one more before we get into the three that are going to resume tonight. The LA Clippers tied it up at one. I expressed on Tuesday that I felt I felt terrible. for Utah losing Gobert. I mean, the numbers are the numbers, right? Their defense with him on the court versus him off the court. And it felt like very early in that game that, you know, when you have DeAndre Jordan

who can catch these alley-oops all the way up to 14 feet in the air, that if you got Gobert in there, you can give that a massive problem. But he was just, I mean, it was Dunkfest 2017 at the beginning of that game. And he could just spike it on them. And so they don't have that there, whereas Gobert could really neutral. neutralize him completely. And the other thing is this very, very strange circumstance of that game, which I don't know how to take this.

If this is, I'm going to read you this stat. And then you tell me, should we look at it like, yeah, and they still won? So that should tell you how overmatch Utah is now. Or do you view it like, okay, if this is the type of thing that happens, then the Clippers winning was an outlier? Here it is. they lost by double digits at the free throw line, 17 to 5, okay? They lost by double digits from three point range, 30 to 18.

And I'm saying the clippers did. They lost 17 to 5 at free throws. They lost 30 to 18 from the three point line. Under those circumstances, if a team lost by double digits from the free throw line and the three point line, the last 37 times that's happened in the playoffs, the team lost. Teams were 0 and 37 when that happened. So obviously I brought up the two ways to look at it. Should we look at it like that happened and the clipper still won?

Or should we look at it like if Utah can do that and maybe not to that extent, you can't expect to win the free throw line and the three point line by double digits every night. But if they keep playing like that, they're going to be able to give the Clippers a big problem because what we learn is it's not sustainable to lose those categories and still win. What do you think? I think it's more the latter in the sense that Utah can still make this a series. I think last Tuesday night that game, Gordon Hayward was pretty inefficient that night, only five for 15. I think if he has his typical night, you know, he's been a pretty efficient score over the course of the season, then maybe that's closer than an eight-point game.

But I think, you know, the issue for the Utah Jazz is L.A.'s pick and roll. It's like unstoppable earlier in their game, because like you said, without Gobert, they were able to just lob it up to DeAndre Jordan. Chris Paul was slicing into the lane. Jordan was throwing down dunks, and Utah didn't really have an answer for that. So they need to figure out a solution minus Rudy Gobert to stopping the Clippers pick and roll. because that's kind of going to be the bread and butter of their offense moving forward without Gobert on the floor. So they really need to patch that up while getting more efficiency from Hayward while still maintaining the edge from the line and from the three point line, as you stated. Yeah, the thing is.

But they still have a good team. I hate the Gobert loss. I honestly think that if they had Gobert, they would win the series. I thought the Clippers would take care of them. They can't be trusted. It's a fool's errand to trust the Clippers. It just, I mean, so even now, I think. I think it's too much for them to lose Gobert, but, you know, anything is possible, as Durant once said, or I'm sorry, his KG once said.

On the other side of that, like with Cleppers, they, I feel like they can get more on a JJ Redick, too. He's only shot 13 times in two games, only hit one three, only has 11 points. It feels like he's due to have like a game where he just is ferociously just unlaunches threes from outside. And maybe they get that from him. Like I said, you know, the jazz need a little bit more from Hayward. Maybe they're going to really feed Redick more going forward. We'll see. There's a lot that can change.

All right, we've got to take a quick break. And then we're going to talk about the three games that are going on in tonight's NBA slate after these words. Ring our NBA show brought to you today by Sacks underwear. Most guys settle for underwear that isn't quite right. Lately, there's been a lot of talk about men's underwear that's supposed to be better. But there's only one brand you need to try. Sacks underwear. I'll tell you why.

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and obviously the Cavs defense has been bad. I mean, their offense is good. but their defense has been bad. Usually if a team is to get one of the games, even in a series that they get dominated, it's that first home game. It's game three, coming back to a home crowd. The other team can rest on their laurels a little bit

because they're already up to zip, and if they lose, it's not the end of the world. The home team feels like it's do or die, like their whole season's on the line. And so you see this a lot, That if it, even in a series, one team makes quick work of the other. If there's a game to get, it's usually game three. So I'm never shocked if a team gets a game three.

And the Cavaliers haven't exactly been a team that has shown max effort every single time. What do you think? I think the Pacers can get one from them? No, not really. It's like we talked about on Tuesday, Chris. I just think, you know, as bad as Cleveland's defense is and as bad as, you know, is it could be a problem for them going forward. Indiana's defense is just worse.

And I think, I think in a sense, Cleveland can coast a little bit more than we thought this round. I know the games are close and the score-wise, but it just doesn't feel that close to me. And I think Indiana is going to need a perfect night to beat Cleveland. And I think, I don't think Cleveland needs to be perfect to beat Indiana. They just have too much firepower and offense. And Indiana's defense is too bad. I've just seen it so many times over the years. Even in Goofy Series, the team wins game three.

Because then the road team then takes it seriously again. They win game four, and then they can go close it out on their home floor, right, in the fifth game. And sometimes you get caught doing that. So if the Pacers are to win a game, I think it's tonight. That's what I'll say. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. If there's any night, it's tonight.

Yeah, Raptors bucks. This has become really fascinating because I think a lot of people, expected, especially after the Bucks took it to them in game one and won by double digits, that the Raptors would turn around and return the favor. But the Raptors, I mean, Kyle Lowry hit a massive shot at the end of that game. And he had 22, I think DeRosen had 23. Their back court was good together. But they had their hands full, man. The Bucks would not go away in that game. And so it just feels like this is going to be a hard series for either of those two teams to run away from each other.

And this one is as competitive as it gets. They got what they needed out of Lowry, Chris. Yeah, so here's what I'll say, Kevin. I have no idea what the hell is going to happen in that tonight. Yeah, I think that series could go six, seven, for sure. I think, I think Nate, I mean, this goes without saying. This is kind of a captain obvious statement for me, but they need Lowry to do what he did in game two.

And they need DeRoson to maintain his scoring efficiency from game two. They can't have the version of those guys that they had in game one and that they've had for their past 30 games or so playing together in the playoffs. That's their source of offense. That's where it comes from on their team. They don't really get it from anywhere else besides those two guys. They're the guys who create for everybody. They're the guys who really they lean on for everything. Whereas the Bucks, I mean, they have multiple guys who can really, I think, create for them.

They have Anton A Kumpu, obviously. Chris Middleton had a great game too, much better than he was in game one. And Malcolm Brogden didn't have that good of a night from Milwaukee on Wednesday, Tuesday, or Monday, whatever game, I'm mixing up all these days, whatever game two was. Malcolm Brogden didn't have his best night, the potential rookie of the year. They have multiple guys that can beat you and they can really switch a lot on defense as we, I think, talked about on Tuesday. Whereas Toronto, they need Lowry to score, man. They need Lowry to be that efficient player or else they're going to be in trouble this series.

It just feels like with five minutes left to go, those games are going to be in. the balance regularly. You know, we're seeing some of these series where the teams are running away from each other. But it feels like, you know, these, I think we're going to get a bunch of games that go down to the wire between these two. And I think the line is like bucks one or one and a half tonight. So Vegas isn't all that confident about what's going to happen tonight either. It's just a, it's a tough one to call because they're, I don't know, especially the way the first two games played out. you know,

Brogden missed the shot and Kyle made the shot, right? Or else it's a wildly different series. But it's entertaining. It's really good, really, really good. And then the other one tonight is Spurs Grizzlies. Obviously, I'll be in attendance for that. Much like I said with the Pacers, even if you're wildly overmatched,

if there's a game to get, it's game three. I've seen it over and over again. Because of the whole Fisdale rant, the place will be a Hornets Nest. I mean, it is a really good home. playoff environment. Anybody that's ever been in Memphis will tell you that. It's a great home playoff environment.

The Fisdale thing has everybody all jacked up, including the players on the team. And so if the Grizzlies have any chance of making a series against the Spurs, it'll be because they're able to channel all that and win tonight. But it felt like he figured maybe a few things out in the second half, including playing Zeebo and Marcus all together. And so we'll see. Again, I actually, I would be surprised that the Grizzlies got beat up. You know, maybe they lose at the buzzer.

But I would be very surprised if it's not like grand slam effort and possible win tonight against San Antonio. But again, I'm biased. One thing that like 100% will happen tonight is you're right. That crowd is going to be rocking. And it's going to be important for the Grizzlies to get off to a good start. They can't fall down like by. 13, 14 points in the first quarter like they did in game two against the Spurs. They need to keep that crowd alive and they need to maintain, I guess, their home court

advantage, right? I think throughout the course of that game. They need to keep it competitive. I don't think they can let it slip away. Then that's when they run into trouble. Yeah, being at these shootarounds and practices the last couple of days, I'll tell you, they have so much confidence because they got down 26 and had that thing at five or four, I think it might have gotten to four.

but it's four or five point game and they're down by 26. So to them, they feel like they figured out something that works. And we'll find out, you know, I mean, hell, it's Greg Popovich. He could ruin that too, right? I mean, the guy is, you're right? You know what I mean? Same way they figured out something that works. Greg Popovich is going to figure out something that screws it up.

But I will tell you that it's typically, if a team got beat by double digits in their first two games, it is a and I think part of it's because of Fisdale going off but they just they have a way different attitude than a team that's usually down by two games right they got some cut they got do you so on Tuesday sorry yeah go ahead go ahead so on Tuesday you um you mentioned that like

you know they need to play their guys who like have been around like you know they can't be playing Wayne Selden 16 minutes and having him get roasted by Kauai Leonard do you expect them to make that change heading into game three where Selden's minutes are either totally eliminated or they're minimized and James Ennis is the guy who ends up playing 30 plus? I think I think Ennis will start. I think that Fisdale will start the starting five from the second half.

Now you got to remember, they went into the second half. They're down by 19. And he took Jamichael Green out of the starting lineup and put Zach Randolph in. And he took Wayne Selden out of the lineup and he put James Ennis in. And I think that's what you will see. I think you will see that tonight. as the starting unit, and I think they'll play heavy minutes. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's successful again, honestly.

Right? I mean, with Conley, Gassall, and Randolph on the court together, you know, we were talking about earlier, we were talking about teams having to worry about the other guys. And I told you, like, what is it, what is the reason that you have to really honor Wayne Seldon on a wing? If, you know what I mean? Like if Conley and Gassal run a pick and roll,

Kauai Lenter can just play free safety. You can just leave his guy. And the same thing goes as we're talking about with the Boston team. You can run all the Isaiah Thomas Al Horford stuff you want, but it only matters if somebody's going to honor Marcus Smart, if their defender is not going to leave them. And so flanking it with Ennis and Carter and just having Zibo being an actual third guy

that could put the ball in the bucket to worry about, it changed the dynamic a lot in the second half, so we'll see if that carries over at all. But it feels like Fisdale might have found something with that and playing those three guys together because when he tries to put Randolph out there with the second unit, there's nobody else on the second unit that can score the damn ball. So all the spurs have to do is worry about Zach.

I don't know, it would be interesting. If the Grizzlies are to make a series, it's because of what they pull off tonight, that's for sure. And I will tell you, flip it on TV. Wait to you hear the first call. that goes against San Antonio. It's going to be freaking pandemonium. I'm hoping there's some chance tonight.

I'm hoping this is like, take that data. Take that for data? Take that for data? Yeah, yeah. I might have to take out one of the syllables to make it flow, but. Take that data. Yeah, yeah, take out the four. So it has four syllables.

Make it flow a little bit better. All right. I think they got a chance tonight, Chris. I give the Grizzlies a solid chance. Listen, like I told you, I did the whole explanation on game three's earlier, right? Teams that are up to O-O, it's not the end of the world for them. The team, there's just no way to mimic that. If you're down O2, you know.

If you lose, you ain't coming back, man. Teams that are down O3, just like that is. Now, there's a different level of confidence for teams that are down one, three to one now, given what took place last year. Right? It used to be if you were down 3-1, it was a death nail. I guess the rockets were down 03, weren't they, to the Clippers? That was the only one that we've seen?

I believe so, yes. Yeah, right? Remember when they stormed back and won that series? The defining moment of this Clippers era with the rockets beating them and going to the Western finals after they had that huge lead on them. Yes, yep. Yeah, the team that's... Those Clippers team, I think,

hey, they have a lot of defining moments, man, where it seems it seems like that this is where they turn in the corner and then they never do. And maybe game two of this series between Utah Jazz, this is where we say, okay, they're going to get over the Humph versus Gobert

and then there's going to be a moment where Utah just comes storming back. Yeah. Well, and I will say this. It might be so that the Pacers' best is simply not good enough. And that the, Grizzly's best is simply not good enough.

But I would be very shocked at both of those teams. If whatever their best is, certainly, maybe not their best play, but their best effort, whatever maximum is, that's what both of those will give out tonight, which that gives them a chance for sure. And so I wouldn't be surprised at both those teams win their home games. But some of this stuff hasn't gone necessarily how I expected so far anyway. If you're picking one, who are you leaning towards Chris? I think I'd probably have to say the Pacer simply because of the track record the Grizzlies have against the Spurs now. They have lost so many consecutive playoff games. And there's so much of the Here We Go again.

I think they're going to give a Grand Slam effort. And I think the Grizzlies, I think they'll win this game. I do. I think they'll win game three. They may get, they may lose four and five. but I think they'll get at least one of these games and if they are it'll be this one and then but the Cavs Pacers

I could see the Cavs not giving a shit tonight I really could you know just not just not not giving it everything they got and if they lose they lose so what I just pulled up the box score to that game 7 you mentioned between the Rockets

and the Clippers after the Rockets came back from 3-1 just out of curiosity that night just to like look back of that Rockets team. James Hardin, 31 points on 7 of 20 shooting. Trevor Areza, Dwight Howard, Josh Smith, Corey Brewer, Terrence Jones, Jason Terry, Pablo Pregioni, totally different roster towards the back end for Houston. Some common names towards the top with a reason.

So that was three, was that 3-1? That never got 3-0. 3-1 in 2050. Clippers won game one, Rockets one game two, Clippers won. three and four by wide margins. They won game three, 124 to 99, game four, 128 to 95. So that series looked over, right? 3-1 up over the Houston Rockets after blowing them out twice in a row.

And then Houston just stormed back. I mean, that's at least three massive series that we have seen over the last couple of years that a team has come back from 3-1. So that's certainly not viewed the same way. So 3-0 is still just a death wish. You're dead. You're dead if you go down three. That seriously is a great example of what we talked about towards the opener of this podcast

that, look, even when teams look dead, sometimes they can just turn it around. That's why you've got to be careful and not become prisoner of the moment. Because things change quickly in the NBA, you know, from year to year with rosters, with year to year with players changing, but also within series, how quickly things can change depending on adjustments or injuries or whatever else, whatever variable enters the equation. That's why I'm so skittish on the whole making. grand pronouncements about the Celtics. The Bulls were bad all year, Kevin.

They were like, that thing was not good. Like, they have turned awesome. Those first two games, the Bulls look so awesome. And I don't think anybody that even cares about the Bulls understands what the hell is going on. It's bizarre. Bizarre. How good they have been. It's really weird.

That's for damn sure. Just, just looked, dude, like three months ago, like Rondo was supposed to. Instagram messages. I know. My bets wouldn't do that. They were calling all the young players on the team just three months ago in January. It's just funny to think about it. I mean, what happened to this whole season, it was like they can't shoot, they hate each other.

Hoyberg's an idiot. Like everything was a mess. Even going into the last game, what, they had to get the frigging nets to sit everybody on their team to get in the playoffs. Right? If Brooklyn like plays, right, Brooklyn like didn't even play anybody in that last game, you remember? Yeah, that's true. Or else they could have been out.

That's really true. The heat could have been in. If Brooklyn plays like Jeremy Lynn and Sean Kilpatrick and all their guys, Bulls might not even be in the playoffs. I know that sounds crazy, but Brooklyn actually was a tough out the last couple weeks of the season. I don't know. Things can change, man. Times can change quickly. It's like with Jimmy Buller.

all these rumors of the deadline. I had a report that like, you know, if things continued, you'd probably be gone. And, like, that, that was all dependent on largely what was to come. There were still games left in the season. And they've completely, I don't want to say flip the switch because they were still average in the regular season. But through two games in the playoffs,

they've shown what they can do together when they are clicking on all cylinders, when they are all playing together, when they are playing intensely on defense that they have, and this is simple, like this is a really simple way to look at it, but they have three guys. who can go off. Rondo, Wade, and Butler. That's for sure. Kevin, it's been fun watching all these so far. I can't wait to see how all these play out and how many times we can look back at things

that we have said throughout these last couple of podcasts and feel foolish about it. So I tried my best not to make it. You know who really scared me is our boss Simmons. I had him on that podcast. And the first question I asked him about the Boston-Chicago series, people are already sending it to me. I said, on a scale of 1 to 10, how scared are you of Chicago? And he said one. And then he followed it up by, I said, Fred Hoyberg is not winning a playoff series. And I was like, oh, God. Oh, God. Hey, man. I think I think you ask almost any Celtics fan, they probably

would have been on like the one to three level of that scale. I know. I think almost anybody. It's been a disaster so far. All right, Kev. I'll catch up with you next Tuesday. Thanks, brother. Hey Chris, thanks for having me on today. It's going to do it for another ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes. And we will talk to you tomorrow.