The Ringer NBA Show - Celtics Sweep Their Way Into the Finals | Real Ones

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

Logan, Howard, and Raja react to the Celtics sweeping the Pacers and punching their ticket to the franchise’s 23rd finals appearance (04:00). Then, the guys reflect on the shocking nature of this Mavericks-Timberwolves series, as the Wolves are on the brink of elimination (32:05). Later, producer Kerm reads your questions for Logan, Howard, and Raja to answer on a rare Tuesday edition of Mailbag Monday (54:00). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] Hosts: Logan Murdock, Howard Beck, and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Bill Simmons. I am thrilled to announce our newest YouTube channel. It's called Ringer Movies. If you're a fan of our movie coverage here at The Ringer, then you're in luck because every episode of The Rwatchables and the Big Picture now on YouTube. Like Bill said, Ringer movies will feature full episodes of my show, The Big Picture, the Rewatchables, as well as special live episodes, deep dives into movie history and a bunch of other fun stuff featuring other movie-loving Ringer personalities.

Search Ringer movies on YouTube and experience the joy. Chris Ryan impersonating Wayne Jenkins on camera. What's popping. Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here, Rogerville there. Howard Beckett in the motherfucking cut. Tuesday, Real Ones. I hope you guys all enjoyed your holiday. Got a question for you, Roger. Are you recording? How long have we been doing this podcast? Listen, or maybe you can help me. Has there been a time where I was advertised to be on the podcast and you tuned in, hit your whatever link and then Logan was there and I wasn't there?

Roger, don't do this. Has there been a time did that happen? Wait, hold on, curb, curb, crime from pull our receipts. Motherfuckers can listen to this phone. And if y'all hear the audio, it sounds weird. It means someone did not press record, and that is why that's asked. Don't pretend like every time the audio's in means that you were recording, because that's not facts. Let's, no, Logan asked me if I was recording, right? To which I gave my answer.

And to your rebuttal, I would then further rebutt. Did you still fucking hear my voice? Was there a time that you came? on this fucking pod and didn't hear my voice when I was advertised to be here. If you can point to one of those, then I will digress. And Howard and Lolo, take the floor. This is insane. All right, I'm ducking out.

I'm not going to debate this because I gave my voice and he was just like, no, we're going on that. Rosa somehow was wrong, but right at the same time. I don't know how that happens, but it would work. Welcome to my wife's world, bro. Let's get it crack. It's Tuesday. It's fucking Tuesday. Oh, my God.

Spot is off the rails. Listen, no, but I just shot out my wife, right? Like, we're both virgos. And so we're like the same person. And so these extrace, this is what we do. Like, you're not, I mean, this is what we do. This is our house. There is a meme that I saw on Instagram that says, it doesn't matter what you were talking.

I won the argument because it doesn't matter what you were talking about. I forgot about that 10 minutes ago. Roger Bell, ladies and gentlemen. Sounds like every discussion I've ever had with the troll on Twitter. There we go. Anyways, Tuesday we're going to talk about... We're going to talk about Celtics, going to the finals, talk Timberwolves Mavericks, game four. Maybe we'll get in some Bill Walton talk RIP.

Then we have a motherfucking mailbag. Let's start with the Boston Celtics who are going to the finals yet again. second time in three years. I don't know how many times that they have been there in their franchise history. Current can probably help us out, but it's been a lot and they are back. Howard, what is the biggest difference you free from this team, from the 2020 team? What have you liked from this postseason from the Boston Celtics? And what do you see going forward going into the finals?

What can we see that's a difference going into the finals for them? A lot. And the funny thing is that we've spent a lot of time in the last, I don't know how many months, going back to the regular season, parts of these playoffs, where the themes have been, ah, look, not sure I trust them.

There's a lot of been, I'm not sure I trust the Celtics. Logan's raising his hand. There's been a lot of I don't trust the Celtics. And it's because every time they lose, they lose the way that we've seen them lose in the past, right? ball sticks they settle for threes they don't drive all that stuff and for the most part like seriously for the most part by a massive degree because how many games have they lost in the playoffs

two three i've lost it's like they've barely lost uh but we're nitpicking because when they do lose and sometimes even some of the uglier wins look like shades of their old selves and it makes people think, am I too confident in this team? Have they not quite convinced me? The fact is they've been absolutely dominant. And we can sit here and say, well, all right, you know, all these teams that were banged up and teams that didn't have to face, players that were injured. That's every postseason, some worse than others. It doesn't matter. They've been dominant and they have shown progress. Jalen Brown, who just was named conference finals MVP by a very slim margin. I think it was a five to four of the media that were there. Jalen Brown's been

absolutely spectacular in this playoff run. And he's more reliable with the ball in his hands. I think he's smarter in his shot selection. He's just been overall better than he was it's what, two years ago, but three post seasons ago when they went to the finals in 2022. I think Tatum's better. But the biggest difference is obviously

like everything else, right? They have Drew Holiday now. They've had Derek White, he had joined them for that in the middle of that season. He's now fully integrated and playing a massive role for them on both ends. And at some point in the finals, possibly even by game one, I assume we're going to see Chris Depps Porzingis, which is a huge difference from a couple of years ago. And they're just more experienced, they're steadier. This team, lest anybody forget, has been to six conference finals since 2017.

Now, the first one I think was just Jalen Brown before Tatum was drafted. but six conference finals and five of those with this this core of Tatum and Brown. So they're just steadier now. You have to kind of grow up in this league sometimes. It doesn't always come together immediately. So I think the doubts that have accumulated over the last several years are probably unfair because it's part of the growth process. No team has been more successful.

Championships aside, just in terms of consistent postseason success, no one's been to more conference finals in the last six. years. Logan, I want you to finish during the ship, so I ask the question you're going to ask, but let me just tag on to what Howard said, because I agree with all of it. The one thing I think he left out that is worth mentioning is Mazula's better. He too is growing up. You know, on the job, job fell in his lap and had moments last year where you saw the inexperience, but I think he's been better too. I think as much shit as I've given him at times on the pod, it's worth acknowledging that. How has he been better in your eyes, Roger? Because you were a guy that was

like we have a running bit even from last year. It was one of our hilarious bits of you just talking about his not even calling a timeout. Like just even throughout this whole podcast. What is this? Situationalally he's been better. Like there's a direct correlation for me between the way a team comports itself down the stretch of a game. But there's a direct relationship between the coaching and the coach's ability to manage those situations and their success or lack thereof in those minutes. they have, you know, for whatever it's worth, we killed them at times because they can mismanage

situations, but like they've been really clean in the playoffs. And they've been in multiple games, this series alone, where you look at it and you're like, I don't know how they're going to escape from this. But they play very clean. They like, you make the mistakes. They just stay the course. Joe last night was great even with timeouts. This isn't my thought.

I think I heard it this morning, but it was a real thing because when it happened, the announcer said it. And I was like, damn, you got Jason Tatum out of the game. Well, he had five. He took him out. There was a defensive possession. Like Jason Tatum sat. He already knew the timeout was coming.

And so then he was able to get him back on the floor. Like you didn't see him playing chess like that last year. Like you saw him stymied by Eric Spolstra over and over again. And so, you know, I don't want to dive back into that. I just want to give the man his flowers. Like there's a, there's, it's not just that the players have matured. And that's why they're handling. of handling themselves better in those situations.

Obviously, Drew Holiday helps tremendously with all of his experience. And everyone is growing up, but Missoula is growing up too. There was a lot to be happy with if you're a boss of Celtics fan at Game 4. I think one of the things that I liked was I think the mark of a really good team is winning games you're really not supposed to win because there are playoff games out there where the other team has momentum. Paces have momentum for most of that game. and they were up 10 and the Boston selves kept fighting. I think my favorite types of games is when the higher seed isn't supposed to win a game and continue to fight.

And maybe they lose by one or maybe they lose by two or whatever, right? But Boston finished the job and they just hung in there. There were a lot of plays. You mentioned Drew Holiday, Roger, where I think he's in the perfect role right now. He does, I think he's 34. He's not really expected to be the number two option on the team. And he could just focus on defense. There were a lot of plays down the stretch where two or three of Indiana's guards were trying to get to the cup.

And Drew Holiday just snatched the rock similar to the way Kauai would, right? Just like there was nothing. No one was getting past Drew and he could only focus on that. And then there was the other element. You mentioned the Missoula element where not only is he making strategic, striking strategic calls offensive and defensively, he's also you can see that he has a lot more trust from the guys where he's telling him

hey man stay with it it's going to be okay it's going to be good and it seems like they're feeding off of him now well I was going to say it's a great point Logan that that in and of itself is an indication of how he's grown their ability as a team

for that message to stay fresh in a lot of situations that it would be easy for that message to get turned off by players. The message being, you know, I know it looks like we're out of this one. We're down 18. We're down 20.

We got, you know, we have five more games to win this series. But just stick with it. Trust me, we'll get back in that. And yeah, we're pros and guys are conditioned to compete to the last whistle. But there's also an ebb and a flow of like a playoff series. And sometimes you could fall into like, well, shit. You know, we want to, you know, we'll have four more. They're up 20.

Let's just, you know, well, they got this one. And I think that also speaks to Missoula, as well as the team's maturation. But the fact that those guys stay in there and they just keep working, right? Like that seems like a relatively, you know, small thing. Now, people don't know how hard it is to sweep. That's why it's hard to sweep in the way. That's why those game fours and closeout games are so hard because you got to go the extra mile because, you know, the Indiana Pacers are playing for their season, right?

And they're going to play as hard for their life. And you have to overcome that. And also, you're not only trying to overcome them fighting. You're trying to overcome the mental stretch of it, which is, damn, I'm going to just give up. We can just go back to Boston and win it there, right? Just you're battling against the team and yourself. And the Celtics have been battling that, which has annoyed me, have been battling that throughout this postseason. And while they've been dominant, they have taken their foot off the gas.

It was really impressive to see them just. keep it on the gas and sweep a team, right? One thing to me and Howard were talking about pre-pod was the subject of Jalen Brown. And I have been thoroughly impressed by him throughout this series. This has been, I think, a signature series for Jalen Brown. You talk about what happened in game one, hitting the big shot, which was a series changing shot, then dropping 40 in game two, and then the plays he just made in game four. Howard, the journey that this dude has been on from getting drafted by the Celtics,

not getting it when he wanted to get it, not getting the shine that he believes he should get, or the minutes that he thinks he should get early in his career, getting a spot taking, having to go on the bench and then having to come back. Now he is a, at a point in time, is now that signed the wristage contract in NBA history. Doesn't get all NBA this season. but there's a lot, which is causing a lot of discourse back and forth about what he is or isn't. What have you seen from Jalen? And how, where should, what's a good point to put him in the context of the league and on the context of his team right now?

What's a good position he should be looked at as being in? Well, I mean, I want to just quickly point out too, he was all NBA last season. It was the first time he made it. That's what enabled him to get that super. Max deal, the $300 and whatever million, which at that moment was the richest in NBA history. And, of course, somebody tops that every five minutes, I think, in this league because the cap keeps going up and the maxes keep going up. But he was all NBA a year ago.

So I don't think there's any sense of, like, the idea, this drives me nuts. Oh, the disrespect. There's no disrespect. He was all NBA a year ago. He didn't make it this time. But a lot of weird things happened this season, including most of it. importantly, I think, is the fact that they went positionless on the all-MBA ballots. And so people went a lot of different directions with that.

Some people still went two guards, two forwards, and a center on every team. Some people went really guard-heavy or forward-heavy, whatever. I was looking at up because I couldn't remember how far off he was. He did finish pretty well shy in terms of like total play. He was 20 points shy of placing third team. He got 50 third team votes. And that's it. No first, no second.

So he was on, there were only 99 ballots this year because somebody failed to get there's in time. So he was on 50 of the 99 ballots. The guards who made it ahead of him, Shea and Luca, no one's going to argue with. Jalen Brunson, I don't think anyone's going to argue with. Anthony Edwards, people may argue Brown over Edwards. And then the others, because of the weird balloting where you could have as many guards as you wanted to.

Steph Curry, Halliburton, Devin Booker were the others that made it. So there were seven guards this season. And then you could have slotted him at forward. I mean, there's no position. So you could have slaughtered him wherever. He didn't place, you can make an argument that he should have. He was not on my ballot, I will admit. But it was close.

And it was tough. And the thing is, this is one of those classic cases where just like people are like, now crushing cat or crushing Rudy Gobert. for the way they're performing in the playoffs or in this particular series. It's not about the playoffs, folks. Jalen Brown's been incredible in the playoffs, and he's stepped it up under the notch, but it's a regular season award,

and I even redid the exercise this morning just to look. Like, if you put him with the other guards that I just mentioned, who made all NBA, he was among the lower on the list in a lot of statistical categories. Yes, he was part of the winning his team in the NBA, but it's a matter of like whether you see, all NBA is more about team success, individual success. So he's come a long way, but I think his playoff performance is what has stood out more than

his regular season. He had a great regular season, but he has stepped up a notch still in the postseason. He's on pace for a career high and points per game in the postseason at 25. He's on pace for one of his best seasons in a while in terms of turnovers. He's really cut down his turnovers in the postseason. His effective field goal percentage is up. He's just, he's more reliable with the ball in his hands, right? It used to be like you just, you know, cringed a bit every time he put the ball on the deck.

I think he's just making better decisions. And so he's been great. Like, not as, you know, nothing really to critique. Not a staying on his name, Howard. What did you got to say, Rob? No, I mean, I don't have much. First of all, making all NBA or all defensive teams, the only thing I could really draw a comparison to and stuff like that is,

is cool. It's even more cool when you're able to achieve that and it ties into your finances. So I would just say the fact that he made it last year and was able to secure the bag that he secured should be all that really, really matters, right? Like that was the one that you had to get. I think he's in a really interesting place in a career where, sure, you're still seeking validation, right?

Like, you still want to be rewarded for your efforts. And as he continues to grow as a player, because he is just still growing, which is, you know, it's always scary to see those really, really good players and know that there's more room for them to get better.

But he does. So he's still in a spot where he's seeking validation. Like, he will get to a point, I imagine, and maybe the championship helps with that, where you don't need it. And that's freedom. Like, when you don't need it, now you unlock a whole other level because you don't, like, I mean, it's life, right? It's not just sports, but like, you're not seeking that. And no one can give you that anyway.

Like, that comes from within. That comes from the security of knowing, like, I am the dude. Like, it doesn't matter what Raja says or Logan or anybody like that. And he'll be there soon. I imagine championships. He's still hunting for some personal stuff. You could tell within the team concept. But soon enough, that'll be gone.

What excites you about the Celtics team going into the finals, Rajah, and what concerns you? Well, there's a lot that excites me. I mean, they're a really well-rounded team. You know, when we're talking about being able to guard the problem that we have talked about before the playoffs, that is Kyrie and Luca and what they can do to you offensively and some of the precarious spots is they can put you in and pick and roll and out there on the island and an ISO, like they have a bunch of guys that at least in theory match up with length, size. in range. I think they're a little bit more versatile than Minnesota in that way. Obviously, their ability to score with Tadam Brown, D. White, like, they've got a bunch of guys drew holiday ties it all together.

I think that the one spot that I might worry about them in, and I would just say it and has it reared its head in a while, and they might be so good that they're not in it, is we talked about the backbone guy. Yeah. The backbone guy. If we're not cruising in a way that allows us all to just kind of be our organic selves, and it doesn't require that guy who's just, you know, fire and brimstone and chewing people's ass out, like, then it's good. But if we get in those situations where that guy needs to be there, you know, that would be my concern. I don't know that it's a major one at this point, though. They're looking so good. But it depends on who they draw. And that's the thing with the balls of Celtics is. When it looks great, it looks great. But when they get punched in the mouth, it...

No, that's the concern. Yeah. How much of it, because you look at their postseason schedule, yeah, it was, they were dominant. But if you look at the teams that they played, I mean, no one is surprised about how dominant. They got the right side of the bracket. How much of that, where they haven't gotten punched in the mouth will play, how much will that play going into the finals? Does it, does it matter? Or what do you think?

I think so I would agree with Howard that injuries happen every year. And look, you play who's in front of you. I would just say that they, you know, and this isn't to marginalize anything they did. I mean, they caught some, they caught some decent breaks as far as, as far as teams having some major injuries. Like, those are major injuries. But they're playing the easiest path to a finals in the modern era, if you look at it. I don't know what to compare it to, but I'm just, I don't know. I don't think it's going to be a concern for them.

They played too much basketball. Like they're, I don't think the fact that they haven't been. And let me just, let me stop, full stop. Oh, they've been tested.

Like, they were tested in game one of this series. Yeah. I mean, the backs against the wall game seemingly over. The whole Boston crowd, as we watched at home feeling the same way. Like,

oh, this is basically hopeless. Here they go. Here these motherfuckers go. And Indiana just kept fumble in a bag. And Boston just kept, chipping away and chipping away and chipping away. And then they did it through two other games in the series.

So they've had their tests. I'm not worried about them. You know, big picture. Situationally, I do think that my concern would be the guy that could pull them out of that from time to time. But I actually think, Logan, that it might not play itself out now. But that West, like when you compare who Dallas has had to go up against and what they've had to do to get out of the West. And I did not see what's happening in this, this round happening to allow them to maybe

breathe a little bit. But I think that the Celtics have banked probably so much, it's going to sound stupid because they're not resting. They're playing every night. But they're not nearly the same type of, they're not the same type of battles. I think they are the much fresher team once you get, even with 10 days, I still think like they've just got much more juice. Even if the other team, even if the other team,

which, I mean, we're going to talk about them in the second segment, obviously. But even if the Mavericks close it out, you still think that that'll be the more fresher team? I do. I do. Here's the thing, though, on the whole, like, have they been tested thing? Okay, yeah, for sure. You look at who they faced, who they didn't face. Okay, they haven't been that well tested. And maybe that partially accounts for being 12 and 2 so far in the postseason.

By the way, they have not lost a road game yet. Their only losses came at home. I consider the not tested thing more if it's an, untested team. The Celtics aren't an untested team. They were in the finals two years ago. We know who they are. So when it's a brand new team, like, if it were the Nuggets last season, I'm like, oh, well, this Nuggets team, they've never proven anything, and they haven't been tested. I'm not saying that was the case. But if it's a new team that has not established itself as a true champion yet, and you go, I don't know because I haven't seen them really

pressed hard. This Celtics team has already seen everything so that they might have an easier run, relatively speaking this postseason does not raise any doubts in my head. I will note, our colleague, Zach Kramm wrote a couple weeks ago, and he's updated it on the ringer, actually doing the homework on whether or not the Celtics path is the easiest of all time. And so he did it by opponent's regular season record, right? You know, just averaging all the wins per game or wins for the season for your opponents. This is what he wrote.

By record alone, the Celtics don't stand. out against the past several decades of finals teams, their conference playoff opponents averaged 47 wins in the regular season, which ties only the 19th lowest opponent total among all 80s finals teams since 1983, 84. So it may not be the hardest path we've ever seen, but it's nowhere near the easiest. In fairness, I agree. The number suggests we hate in, Roger. Nah, but listen, stop and miss me with that.

Because I agree with Howard, 1,000% on whether you need to worry about Boston or not being a tested team. But does that factor in like those teams regular season records and then the fact that you lose the best player on almost every one of those teams? Every one of them. Like you lost Donovan, you lost Hallibur? I mean, like debatable. You lost Jimmy Butler in the first round. Right. I was saying.

Okay. I'm glad you asked, Roger. Oh, because. It did? Because Zach Cram being more smarter than the rest of us.

Oh, it did. Thanks, Roger got my ass. Shout out Zach. No, no, no. No, no. Roger's going to be very happy. Oh, all right. Damn it.

Oh, okay. Cram goes the extra level. So he did injury-adjusted paths to the final since 1984. Oof. And the 2024 Celtics leaped to the top of the list for his easiest.

Once you adjust for injuries. Good shit, Ra. Good shit, Rob. So, So it's like if you want to say it's a thing. Like I said, I'm not dismissing the fact that they had an easier path than usual. I don't think it changes my confidence in this Celtics team based on the fact that they've been through many battles in the past. They've been to the finals and lost.

They've already been there, done that, and had every possible scenario unfold. And so they are tested overall, even if they haven't been pressed in this particular postseason. I agree with that. That's the way I see it. There is the Porzingis question of all of this, right? Which, especially if Boston, and I don't want to get too much into like a preview of the NBA finals. We'll do that next week.

But what I would like to, you know, there's the Pursingis question where, you know, he has the calf injury. Roger was talking about you don't need him in the series and the rest will do wonders for him. How do you, I'll start with Roger on this and go to Howard. How do you think that what version of, of Prasynchus do you think we're going to see? Are you still dicey on that? But do you think

10 days will do for, what do you think it will do for his health? Like, how do you think he's going to show up? How was that going to? And then you're putting him also into a finals environment, which is a tough environment to just drop anyone into. Yeah. How do you think that's going to play? Well, 10 days is a lot of time. So when you asked me like, hey, even if, even if Dallas sweeps, do you still feel like they'd be the less fresh team after 10 days? And I quickly blurted it out. Yes, I do. And I do. But 10 days is a lot of time. Like, that's a lot of time to freshen up. So for for Chris Staps, I'd have to imagine that being out as long as he's out, even if it, and that was a pretty significant calf strain. To be out like that, those 10 days

are going to be critical. Because at this point now, you're trying to get him in shape. I would imagine, mind you, I have no information into what he's doing and where he's at in his rehab. But, But I would think that if there were any grumblings about him being able to play in the last series, if it had won six or seven, what we're talking about is a healed calf. And now we're talking about having him in shape so we don't subject him to hurting it again. So 10 days become crucial in getting him up to speed, getting as close to game speed as possible, getting the strength back in his legs in that way. It's not all about wind and aerobic ability to, like, with,

what's going to happen to you in the game. Sometimes it's about, you know, like your your, your strength, right? And can those legs sustain you for those periods of time that you're out there on the floor? And that only comes with being on the floor and running and building up stamina in him. And so it's going to be critical for him. What version of him you get? That's a long time to be off. might miss a few assignments and be rusty in game one, maybe two, but I think he hits his

stride pretty quickly. I mean, he went through an entire season. Yeah, a little rust. You'll knock as much as you can off this over the 10 days and maybe a game, game and a half, but I think he hits his stride. How do you see this playing out, Howard? Porzigas will have been off for like, you know, five weeks out for five weeks. So, you know, is, you know, Is there any rust? But the flip side of that is like, he's basically a role player, a really important role player. But like, I'm not worried in the way I would be if it were Jalen Brown coming off of five weeks and then going into the finals. And it's, and it's, and it's, and it's, it's, it's, it's first finals, too.

But again, the Celtics aren't going to rise and fall on him. And, you know, they've got, you know, old trusted head Al Horford now in his 73rd season. So, like, they're, they're fine. Like if Porziggis gets out there. It would be longer. You are Al Horford, Howard. By far, Al Horford. Even if Porziggis is out there kind of stumbling around getting in early foul trouble, whatever, not in the rhythm, like the Celtics are fine. On the other hand, this is a really important series for Porzegas, and I don't mean it's like, you know, like of all the fun reunions here, like Porzigas versus the Mavs team that gave up on him is really not that interesting.

It's going to be a distant second to Kyrie versus the Celtics. but Porzingis versus these new bigs for the Mavericks, right? Derek lively, a rookie out right now with the next train. I assume he'll be back for game one of the finals. That's a ways off. He'll be fine. But between Lively and Gafford, like those guys are a huge part of the rejuvenation of the Mavericks, all that vertical spacing, the lob dunks, the rim protection, all of it.

But Porzigis is friggin' huge. And like, that's a different challenge. for those two guys. So I do think he plays a really important role in this series. And again, I know we're not going to start previewing until next week. And I guess we'll give a little respect to the Timberwolves or the moment. So, but the fact that like, you know, obviously the straight of the Mavericks is this incredible back court where both those guys could get a shot off anywhere, anytime, any angle. and this will be, and this has been the case with whoever the Celtics are facing, the Celtics have the best array of perimeter defenders on one team in the NBA, right? So if anybody can at least try to mix it up, show a lot of different defensive looks to these guys,

and try to contain them a little bit with a lot of length and a lot of options, it's the Celtics. So, like, that's going to be fascinating because I do think the Celtics, like, there's a reason they've won 64 games, but also just in terms of the match up against the Mavericks, I think they're uniquely suited to be able to take away or, if not take away, their strengths put a dent in them. It's going to be interesting. I want to hold all my takes until next week, but it should be a fun series.

Say a quick break. Let's talk about the other series, which has been an utter surprise and just, man, what are we going to do for, you know, like a week? Geez. Anyways, say a quick break. And we'll be back to talk Mavericks Timberwolves. And we are back, Raja, if I were going to tell you a week ago

that this will be on the verge of a sweep, this series will be on the verge of a sweep, what would you have thought? Not even, not even, I'm not even telling you teams. I'm just saying a week ago, if I was like, oh, this is going to be 3-0 series, what would be your thoughts? What would you think?

What would you respond to that? Probably, I mean, I'd be really shocked. I'd say somebody's star probably got hurt. That would probably be my first. I'd just rarely see the sweeps like that at that point in the playoffs. So I would have just been super surprised. I probably thought there was some catastrophic that happened. It's been tough.

It's been tough. I think I've been disappointed with a lot of, a lot of things from the Timberwolves. I think everything that I said about Ants versus Luca is kind of coming true in that in the fact of the game manager role, right? The other thing of it is, I don't know what number Howard Carl Anthony Towns is on a roster. I know he's not a number one. Very distant number two can make the argument he's a three or four. What is the, what have you seen from him?

And what is this going to do to his reputation league wide? you're mean, Logan. He deserves it. I'm not sorry either. I'm not sorry. A number two shows up. I'd say this. I would never say he's a four.

Sorry for interjecting, Howard. I wouldn't say he's a four. I could make an argument for a three. Thank you. Thanks for having a bad role. On a really good team. Yeah. On a really, really good championship team.

On the Celtics? Sure. Absolutely. I don't want to suddenly be casting myself in the position of like Carl Anthony Towns defender, but I would just say, like, if Anthony Edwards were delivering on all of the hype that got to stupid extremes a couple months ago, then Towns would probably be having an easier time as the number two. So the fact that Anthony Edwards has not looked like a number one in this series is affecting Towns' ability to be a number two.

How's that for a defense? That's the best I can do on the fly. I like that. I mean, I think it's true. No, Towns has been awful. And three for 22 from three, for a guy who was declaring himself, the best shooting big man in the history of the game not long ago, like better than Dirk.

And this is while getting crushed by Dirk's old team. This is the thing that annoys me about Carl Tails is he does shit like that. I know. I know. I like him. I like him too. But like not only does he make comments like that, his game backs up the comments that he makes like that, right?

Like he's a guy that will make a shot with four minutes left in the game and strut his shit. but when you need him with four seconds left in the game, Brick City. And that follows up his words, right? Where he talks these grand declarations, that's why people roll their eyes at Carl Towns as a basketball player. And it's annoying. Go ahead.

Go ahead, Howard. I had to get that off. No, no, no. All fair. So, yeah, you can't talk about yourself in that regard and hold yourself in the esteem you do and expect the rest of us to buy it and then have this kind of performance. He's averaging 15 points in a series.

Year in and year out, but two. Not even just this season. Yeah. And this is and this was a really important one for him too, right? Like, listen, to his credit, I will just say, like the Timberwolves had not been this far in 20 years. He and Anthony Edwards and the rest of this group, obviously, Nazare, Mike Conley, Jada McDaniels, like Rudy Gobert, they got them here, right? Best season for the Timberwolves in 20 years, one of the best seasons in franchise history. And towns deserve some credit for that. And that's about where I have to stop on that. But it's been it's been a really rough series. I'm disappointed. I mean, I Listen, I think we did these predictions a week ago before the series started, and I said, Wolf's in seven, although I thought it could have been Mavs in seven, I thought it could have been either team in six. The only scenario I would not have counted on or predicted would have been a sweep, which is what we're staring at tonight potentially.

That's disappointing, just because the Timberals have been really great this year. They've been a fun team. And I don't know, I don't care who wins, but I wanted a better series than this. And, you know, the idea that both conference finals because then it sweeps is just bizarre. So, yeah, it puts a damper on an otherwise breakthrough year for the Timberwolves. And I do think that this is going to raise all the old doubts and concerns about Carl Anthony Towns. Remember, we, within the last couple of years, there has been repeated discussions for good reason about is Towns really the guy they're going to stick with long term. Partially it's a payroll concern because of the salary he's making.

what Anthony Edwards will be making, but everybody's like, can you afford all these guys? Part of it has been, have you just gotten as far as you're going to get with towns, right? He's been there for eight seasons or whatever now, and you just have never broken through. Then they have this breakthrough and you think, ooh, wait, wait a minute, hold on, maybe there's a case to pay the luxury tax and to go into repeater taxes or whatever it may entail or maybe the, you know, aprons and all the other shit that comes with today's MBA. Maybe you keep it together. And then a series like this, and this is why GMs have to be really sober-minded. about this, right? When they go back after this series is over and have their offseason discussions, what are we doing next? What do we still need? I think the town's question that maybe for a minute

we thought was put to rest is back. When you see what you've seen over the last week and a half, Raja, when you see Carl Towns routinely on the bench and crutch time minutes in favor of Nas Reed, who is honestly been like the most consistent bucket getter anecdotally, right? When they need a bucket, they get him for three. He's been hitting a lot of great shots. I mean, even more than ant at times, right? This reminds me, by the way. Let me forget this.

I have a question for Roger to follow up. Okay, go. Okay, keep all that in-term. This is new age real ones right here. But when you see all these things that you see right now, not only from Carl Towns, from Rudy Gobert. I think a lot of people just being who they are

when the lights get the brightest that tends to happen at this stage. This separates in this case the men from the boys. But what have you seen specifically from this team

and what have they shown you when I think about I'll go down the list. Aunt Cat Rudy Gobert and the Timberwolves the staff record label

was motherfucking crew. What have you seen? seen over the last week and a half, Roger. I'm giving you all that. I'm trying to even take Howard's question. Just even trying to lump that in there, too. I don't even know what it is. I mean, not to take shots,

and I don't mean for anybody to catch a stray here, but it makes me wonder, I knew Denver wasn't playing fantastic, but it makes me wonder exactly what Denver was. Denver might not have been him. Right. Right. Thank you for cleaning that up for me. But I don't know that that's where my first thought goes, right?

And then I think my, you know, my rational self kind of brings me back to like, styles make fights. And you could be a team that if you drew anyone else, be favored and probably get through the Western Conference, but you didn't. You drew the Mavericks. And they come with a whole set of problems that kind of, as good as you are defensively, exposes a few things about who you are defensively.

And some of those pieces that aren't as versatile and don't guard the perimeter in the way that you have to be able to guard the perimeter when you play the Mavericks, right? They're built for size and strength and rebounding and mucking it up. And Dallas is like, we don't do that. Like we're going to be out here in space

and you're going to have to sit down and guard. And even Jalen McDonnell's, and I touched on this, as good as he is defensively, just a little too light in the ass for Luca. Like, yeah, look is a big body bends, man, you get you on that shoulder and, you know, it's really uncanny. Like he can, you don't have to really make a mistake other than not mirror him and his shoulder. He's at Mayback. Straight up, like taking up a lane and a half. So, um, I think it's a style thing. But I also think that there's just, you're talking about the evolution of a team, and we've talked about this before on the pod.

We'll talk about it again. It does have to grow up. There are things about his game, as good as he is, and that need to get better. You've spoken about it a lot, and you call it game management. And I kind of balked and bristled at that and pushed back a little bit, but you're not wrong. Like, he's got to get better at that. There's, no, yeah, for your flowers, Logan.

like there's a part of his game that that when you are that dude you can't just be that scorer that I was referring to like and while he is a connector and he says all the right things and stuff like that you have to take a step into

okay shit's not going well fellas give me the ball yeah like I think a lot of the first two rounds for the Timberwolves he was able with the teams that he was playing against to impose his will in a lot of ways right and I don't think he was forced to go do second, secondary and third options in terms of movements, in terms of gameplay, he could just give one punch. And for the regular season that works, and for certain teams in the postseason

that works, Dallas Mavers are just a team where they got two of them dudes, right? And they have an identity. And it's, it's that he's going to be good. I do believe he's going to be good with that. He's just, like you said, Matt, he's only 22. That's it. Like, it's just part of your, it's just part of your journey. And all the great ones continue to add to their bag. Okay, this is what they did to me in the 24 playoffs. This is what I did not have. Whatever that is to him.

Well, the next time they see me, I have that. So that's just one answer. The perfect example of that, though, Raja, that I saw in the last game was, dog, when Ant punched it on Gaffert, that was just ridiculous, right? And Reggie Miller the whole time was like, yo, that could be the change in the, I think it was game three, right? I think that was game three. We was like, that could be the change in the game.

That could be the change in the game. Mavericks didn't even blink. They went on a little run and got a tie. And then the Mavericks were like, okay. And, you know? I think that was what it went. But question or to follow up. Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

Well, let me, yeah. Like, so versatility, variety and within what you're doing offensively as he continues to grow. But like, Kat and those dudes, why I say Kat's a number three, potentially. Like, I'm not saying he can't be in number two. But no, like. I mean, he is just who he is. Well, I talked about it, you know, the one people always get upset with me about, and you guys like the clown and get me to go off on a tangent about AD is AD.

He's who he is. Like, how many times? It was blasphemous when you said it so early, Roger. You said it in 2020. It was not ready for that truth. It was, and it bore out. It was not ready for it, though. I mean, how much are we going to watch and hope?

And eventually, you're just like, no, that's what that is. So I would agree with Howard that it would make his life a lot easier if Aunt were a better number one at this point. But Ann is a 22 year old number one. And so in that space, you need a really, really solid contributing. Sometimes I'll carry the weight number two. And he just hasn't done that in that way. Nasreed, as far as Nasreed goes, Nasreed has got more shit to him. Nasreed has more intestinal, whatever you want to call it, it would appear than cat.

And that's not me telling you that. That's the dude doling out the minutes at the end of games telling you. Like, I trust that more than the other one. And that's all that speaks to. And by the way, they paid Nasreed and locked him up last summer when people thought, oh, boy, is this really the wisest thing to do given, you know, how much money you've already got invested in Gobert and towns? This is a third front court, third big man who's making a lot. Can you afford them all?

And I always thought, like, in the short term, it gives you an incredible front court rotation. And then long term, if you don't think you can afford it, I do think that that set them up to be able to move towns for a bunch of other stuff if they need to, knowing that Nas Reid is ready. And he's been a luxury as a sixth man. He's sixth man of the year. But, you know, we're getting ahead of ourselves here.

They're not out yet. But like, I do wonder how much of a conversation. that is again this summer when just a couple weeks ago, I thought, hmm, maybe this is put to rest for the short term. Raja, here's the question I had for you about Ant. And it's a very specific thing. I was out there for game two. So three seconds left after Luca hits that incredible shot,

they inbound to Ant with three seconds left. And the double is starting to come, but he's still got a lot of space between him and the second guy and even the first guy. He immediately turns a pass to Nas. Now, Nas has a way higher three-point accuracy rate in this series. He's probably the better shooter at this stage. They were both equally deep where Ant was standing and where Nas was standing when he took the shot.

And I'm not a hero ball guy. And I'm not a LeBron was wrong to pass in the corner to Doniel Marshall back in the day, guy. But I did think that as many different ways as Anthony Edwards can get a shot off, whether that was his responsibility, mostly because of where the clock was. there wasn't a lot of time to run a player to do anything. And his past and Nas did not create a better shot than the one Nas had. Am I wrong in that? Should he have taken that?

I'm curious. That's an interesting one, Howard. I went back and I watched that a couple times just because I want to be fair to him and that. This is tough because I was a defender of LeBron in some of those situations too. And honestly, if whoever that wasn't help, was it Derek Live? whoever wasn't help, whoever that wasn't help, had they been one step closer to taking away a drive right down the middle of the lane? I would have probably-

That would be Derek Jones. Derek Jones, sorry. But he isn't in a full commit. Like, he's in a help, a stunt, and then I could, that's a tough one, Howard. Does he make a good basketball play? Absolutely. Nasreed's a great shooter. He's drawn a secondary defender.

I mean, that's a play that we make nine out of ten times. That's a play that I would yell for someone to make in any other situation. But let's be honest, right? I want to provide one more context for Raja on that last play in game two. If you look at the plays before, and this is another thing that Ant's going to have to figure out, he was dog tired in the backstretch of that game. He needs, and there were times where I'm like, yo, you need to get your condition. sitting up because you saw that once in Denver

during that time. And like he also looks tired walking off of that as well, right? Like he didn't want to get away from that play because he was just just, but all that you don't here's my overall point. When you're that dude, when you're the dude that someone can get up and make an argument

for why you look like Kobe at times or you look like Mike at times, none of those are excuses that you get to use. Yeah. You don't get to talk about being tired. And so to Howard's question, was a good play. I would not have had any problem if I was his teammate if he kept that ball and turned it down the middle of the lane to see if he could get to his floater. I would have had

I would have been better with that. And not for nothing. It was a one point game. That's what I'm saying. You don't need a three. You only needed a two. And as those guys are converging, force the call. Like you're going to drive right into him. If you if you can't get past him, you're probably getting a foul call. I mean, I shouldn't say probably. No, but no, it is a foul. because that guy is in no position to like wall you up. No, he's he's lunging. And if you just kept driving forward, I think he's either getting a shot off and or getting the foul.

And it was a one point game. And so I again, it's one, it's one play in game two on your home court when you're already down one. Oh, and it's everything. Because if he drives and he gets the shot where he gets the foul and they win that game, and it's one one going back to Dallas. It's like everything is different. Those are the plays that at the end of a hero story, like makes, those are the things that make the movie, right?

Because they get to pan to him when he wins the championship. They get to flashback to him sitting in the summer in a dark theater in his basement, watching that clip over and over again saying, I was young. Like, I'm trying to paint the picture, but you understand what I'm saying. Like you learn from that. That's part of the process. Like, fuck, man, look at that. And you freeze it. And you're just staring at it.

Like, man, I thought it was this. And this is, this is, bear with me because this is nuance. But like, thinking something happened is not what stars do. Thinking it happens. So getting run off of what you're about to do is not what superstars do. Making shit happen is what superstars do. So by the mere fact that you were worried. about that motherfucker being in front of you,

that's the problem right now. Right? Now, he'll grow out of that because he'll look at it, he'll see it, and he'll be like, why am I even concerned with that shit? This is my time. This isn't Naz's time. This is my time.

And that's the separator. Tupac said, and I'm going to censor this heavily, but you know if you know, real ones do what they want to do. Non-real ones do what they can do. Basically with Roger's saying. And not not shade at all. just, hey, man, that's one that will haunt you because you will say to yourself like, man, yeah, I made a play and I could hide behind like, that's a good basketball play.

But to be the dude that Edwards wants to be and I think he can be, those are ones where he makes, he, this is me time. Also, Roger, you know, at a young time, Kobe threw, did some bullshit in his first, although he did shoot it his rookie season. He's failed too. Jordan has failed too. They've all failed. Well, it's, it's the, it's the one thing that we kind of hold our. our superstars too, especially if it's a superstar who is a primary ball handler type and who can get off a shot anytime, anywhere, anyway, which is that because you can do all that, we expect you to do that. We expect you to seize those moments because you have an ability that none of your teammates do. And there's a responsibility that goes with it. And when you veer too far into that,

and you take all of those shots, and if you take them over triple teams at tough angles, tightly guarded, yeah, then we're going to criticize you for being a ball hog or playing hero ball. And there is a balance somewhere in the middle there, right? Like we don't have to criticize them in every single situation that they misfire. The point is more just that you have a responsibility when you are that guy on a team and you have the ability to get a shot off that none of your teammates do. And so it's not to say you can criticize them in every situation again. LeBron was right to pass to Danielle Marshall

of the corner all those years ago. Different situation. And in this case, I do think there's at least a bit of a case for in those situations, Anthony Edwards needs to be the one to take that shot. And he had room to drive. Yeah, and what changes everything

is you're down one. You're down one. There's no one on your body. There's a guy in a precarious situation trying to get in front of you. Like, that's you time, bro. Yeah. All right. This was Timberwolves heavy.

we'll talk Mavs at probably some point. We have a lot of time to talk Mavs should they do what they need to do. But it's time right now for motherfucking Mondays. Kerm, how you doing? Your laptop is fucked up. Spotify, get them another laptop, please.

Don't go on my way. If we're handing out laptops. I'm like frequent flyer miles in... Let's get it. Kerm gets one first, though. Logan. What I do? I didn't even do it.

Wedding. Wedding crashers? I mean, we're going to get into our mom. movie bag. Wedding Crashers? Do you do you know this one or no? I think so. Oh my. I've watched wedding crashes but not that many times. Sorry. Howard, nobody? What? Oh my God. So long ago. So long ago, I can't even really remember that much about it. All right. Sorry, bro. Never mind. Sorry, for anyone. If anyone's listening, those wedding crashes, you're handing out frequent flyer miles at the beginning of the show and a, in a, in a divorce proceeding, like, you want to throw some my way. That's fine. Never mind. Sorry. Anyways, also,

Real quick before we get to Kerm. At some point, guys, Bridgeton Boys will be back. Just FYI. Bridgerton boys will be back. Probably right before the second half of the season comes on. We see you, Penn. Good job, Colin. Anyways, Kerm, what's going on?

What we got? Colin. Our first email is from Stan out in the UK. So, you know, I get to break out of the accent. You know what I'm saying? Mother fucking mailbag. Hello, Chops. I'm listening from England, UK.

First of all, Logan, when you introduce the motherfucking Monday and motherfucking mailbag, you have to give that bomb some more juice like Samuel L. Jackson is spanning you down. Question for you, if you could bring together any three guys today, in current form, ignore salary caps and contract bullshit, who would you guys want to see together? I like the idea of Steph, Janice, and aunt's, but would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Much love. Give Kerm the Emmy. I try, man. I try. Put me on Bridgeton. God damn it. Essentially, his question is, if you guys could make any big three today

and we're ignoring salary caps and shit, who would your big three be? Huh. Damn it. All right. Let me take the fall over hip hop. Fuck, right now. All right.

I'll go first. Okay. I got, I got, just a, this is just wild and it's, and it's for pure, uh, non-basketball reasons. Not non-basket reasons. Uh, Steph, LeBron and KD, just because this has been the postseason of the generational shift. And it looks like we may never see those three guys in the finals again. Might as well put them together and let them have a run. There we go.

I don't, bro, I don't want to see that, that fucking emo-ass. That would be just a, just a sad-ass season, dog. Oh, you're going to like, you're going to have a lot of sub tweets, a lot of just, oh, I don't get the ball. I don't know. Oh, this is, fuck, miss me with that. Who's yours? I mean, I guess I'll pay like, all 2K that makes sense, but God, that would be a downer. Jeez.

Nobody would be happy. How is that a down? Three of the all-time greats still playing at a pretty high level. How is that a downer? Because, no, I'm just saying, I don't want to, I don't want to deal with all the bullshit that'll come with that. That's what I'm saying, Howard. I don't want to... That's what I'm saying.

It's going to be a lot of emo energy going over there. Like, I just don't want to deal with it. Whatever. You're going to be in New York covering that, Howard. You know what you want to deal with it. It's not happening here. No, I'm saying you would be in New York just looking from afar. I'm looking at how great this is.

I have to see that. No, I don't want that. I don't want that. Roger, go ahead. I don't know, man. I'm not good at... That's not my wheelhouse. Oh, man.

It's not, but I, I mean, I'm going to start with I'm going to build my team off of, I think, movement, right? Because it all depends on how you're building a team. We're going to be an ISO team. Are we going to be, you know what I mean? And then we got an overlap. So I'm going to start with movement. So I'll go with Yokic and Steph. Damn. I should have way. I'll go with Yokic and Steph. And then I've been sitting here as Howard was going through it and Logan was having his rant. Who would be the third piece in that? And I'm up for suggestions. Like I,

I, I kind of like I don't want it to be an old team. I like KD in that. I like KD as, as, as,

as that. I kind of liked Yannis, but Janus plays with the ball a lot too. What about Jimmy? Jimmy Butler, Jimmy Butler was an interesting one. Doesn't need the ball

functions great with or without. I like Jimmy. I like Jimmy. I'll take that. And then not, not like the high end star that people would probably think, but I think mine's a different route anyway.

Yeah. You're number three. Yeah, I like that. And we can orbit around, we can orbit around, um, Steph or, or Yokic, whoever you want to call the orbit guy. Damn it. Okay. I, you're, fuck. I was thinking about, uh, Yokit, Steph.

I like that, Howard. Thank you. It's a good job. Uh, I want Yokch on my team. So I'm just going to pick Yokich. Um, who would I have as, because you already took step so I can't

I can't take two of your guys you fucker you know what I'll take I'll take I'll take I'll take 2018 LeBron fuck y'all I don't care I'm making my own rules I didn't think we could just pick the years

I didn't know that was an option here I'll take 94 MJ all right A 84 MJ didn't even play he was playing bass baseball oh anyways I'll take LeBron I'll take LeBron Yokich

and I think they would just be great and I need a shooter who would I take I'll take LeBron Yokic and Katie All right

so after criticizing me for LeBron Katie's Steph all you did was trade out one guy and after all this bullshit about

oh it's so emo step is the most the least emo the most joyful positive easy of my god come on man yes Howard

oh fuck well whatever fuck you guys Anyways, oh, you know what? No, fuck that. You know what? You made a good point. You're going to take Katie out of this.

Let's take Katie out of this. Let's put Jamal Murray there. Let's put Jamal Murray. Jamal Murray. But like LeBron, LeBron and the nuts. You got to have at least one guy who can throw a heat pad

out of the court, so that's good. Yep. LeBron, here's your heat pad. You need it. All right, what's the next question? Next question is from Dennis. It's titled, next candidate for a two-year turnaround.

What's good, Rowan's? Looking back at the 2022 draft, you had Orlando and OKC with top two picks, and this year they both made it to the playoffs. What team picking in the top five this year do you think has the best chance at a 2026 playoff berth? And why is your answer any team besides my beloved Pistons? Thanks for your time and keep it banging on the pod, sincerely Dennis. Dennis, Dennis, God bless you.

As a Pistons fans, God bless you. I'm going to, you know what? I'm going to go with San Antonio. That's probably too easy. That's probably just an easy thing. That's an eye roll. Shout out of Shea Serrano. But they have a generational talent,

and they seem to be, if I look at the top five right now, Atlanta, Washington, yuck. Houston. Houston's a good dark horse, but I just don't know what the, that's who you were going to pick, huhrah? We're going to pick Houston?

Well, I just pulled it up. So, yeah, the Houston was going to be my pick of that. Okay. But Houston's a good dark horse. I just don't know what star they're going to build around. San Antonio is the one. That's the clear one. Detroit.

Trajan Langdon is a great, you know, front office guy, but I don't, I don't see this. Detroit. Sorry. Roger, who you know, I mean, I was, I'd say, I'd say Houston. I think, I mean, you know, clearly Wembe, that's an easier pick, but I think there's some stability there in Houston. There are pieces why you might not have. the piece yet, if you will.

But I think EMA also is, your floor is going to be really, really high with that. I would just say for Detroit, like that's, forgive me for not remembering this gentleman's name, but he said, why would it be anyone other than my team? Trajan, Trajan is really good at what he does. Great drafter. Yeah, he's really good. And the problems for me with Detroit, as I've always said, have been from the top. I don't think that that's, you don't have the type of turnover in player over and over and over again and that be the ultimate issue, I think.

So like finding some stability up there and some clear vision and direction and letting everyone know what direction we're going in and giving them their marching orders to achieve those, you know, things is important. I think that they'll have that in a better way than they have. I like that. I do. but also like one of the other things though like Rashid Wallace said they'll never be a on this podcast the business will never be a contender with the current ownership structure so I mean take that with

yeah they've had some better than all of us this is one of those things it's like Washington is so far off they just began to tear down a year ago that like they're not coming back anytime soon and the pistons have been such a mess that like you could just scratch them both off right off the top I like you Logan I like it's the immediate thing you think about is like Wembenyama is a generational talent and a franchise changer and they'll, they'll, you know, they don't need long to find the right pieces around him like he's going

to lift everybody up. So that's, I think it's the choice. And then the Rockets already have some momentum. There's at least a case for the Hawks. I don't really trust the Hawks and I don't think having the number one pick in this particular draft is necessarily the thing that's going to turn them around. But they already had a lot of talent there. It just hasn't fit that well. And they've got decisions to make. Are they trading Tray Young? Are they trading DeJante Murray? You know, but there's like, there's not a lack of talent there. Yeah, I mean, they'll, I think the Hawks will, will bounce back sooner than later, but I just don't know the past because I'm not sure which way they're going to go this summer.

One of those two guards is going. Or what bouncing backs looks like, right? Because they was bouncing back like the second round or does it mean that they're continuing for like? Well, what was the question from the emailer was was who's going to make? the quick rise, right? But like, do we... I mean, I'm not... I mean, if the question was to do what the Thunder did

and be all the way to, like, the top of the conference or pretty close to it, yeah, I have less confidence in that. But if it's just the Hawks getting back to respectability and being like, you know, high 40 wins, playoff team, like, they're, you know, they're not that far off from that. That's a good question. Got one more.

Yeah, last question. Last question is from Logan, different Logan. good team versus dynasty What's up, Rowan's? What is it that makes a team go from just a good championship team to a dynasty?

What are the things a team back office has to do to evolve from a talented team with a championship run or two to a legitimate dynasty? Thanks, y'all. True.

I mean, I think you have to have you have to have a core that you have some control over and that are in a similar window in terms of their careers. And around that core, you can move some pieces around it. But I think the core is critical and then control over that core is critical. Stability. I think stability in a coaching staff.

The roster is not always like they're like I said, pieces are going to move, but like coaching staff, cohesiveness and stability is really important. I don't know. Sorry, guys. I think those are really important. I have talent. I mean, shit, great players, all of that. But I think having a core of guys that you have control over that match up in a window,

like they're all ready to win, and then having a staff that you can keep together and on that quest in the same way is important. I would add to that. I think, like, faith is another one, too. And I know people are like, yeah, have faith in these guys. But like, you look at the Boston Celtics, and Howard talked about this, just iterations of teams,

getting to the conference finals, and overcoming the talk of, hey, we need to trade Jalen Brown. We need to do this with this person. We need to break up the core. You got to have faith in your guys if you believe in them. And that goes to your stability argument. But I would just add to that and say,

If you like a core, you should have faith in them even through the losses because there's a lot of teams out there that if something goes wrong, they're like, hey, we need to make a trade. What's going to, what are we going to? The panic trade we always talk about. So everything that Roger said is my answer while also adding faith in your core. Yeah. There's a certain amount of patience you have to have. And there's a certain amount of luck too, right? guys got to stay healthy. And, you know, Raja touched on just the contractual part of it, right? Like, so the Duggets win one. They don't repeat.

KCP is a free agent. If they lose KCP, like he's, I don't know where you want to put him in the pecking order there, but he's really important. If he's gone and you can't replace him because of the way the salary cap works, how far does that set them back from potentially winning again? And the dynasty definition part of this matters too, right? Like people may have their own definitions. I say you have to win three, right?

The heat going to four finals with LeBron and winning two is not a dynasty. You got to win at least three, and I'd say three in a five-year span or, you know, three in a decade, whatever it is. But three is kind of the minimum. The Houston Rockets of the mid-90s were not a dynasty. The Pistons of the Bad Boys era, I don't think we're a dynasty. we're talking about like the best of the best. So it's teams that won three, five, six, 11 in the Celtics case way back in the day. So doing that, like you need a runway.

Because unless you're the Bulls winning, you know, having two three-peats or the Shack and Kobe Lakers who did the last ones to have a three-peat, you need a long runway because you're going to have to win those three or more titles over several years. So it helps to have a core. And by core, I think it's two stars. And again, this is why it's hard to have a dynasty now. This is why we don't have a reigning dynasty aside from what's left of the warrior's old core, right? Because the nuggets and the bucks and everybody else who's won in the last several years for the most part didn't have, well, the Lakers had LeBron and Anthony Davis.

But usually you need a one, two punches at a really high level. And I don't think any of these other recent versions, any recent champions have had that second superstar who's at the level of a Scotty Pippen or, you know, Shaq and Kobe Kobe and Shaq, Magic and Kareem. Like, you've got to have that second guy. And I think it's harder when you don't. And I don't know that the Nuggets do. And I don't think the Bucks did. Yeah. Last question from me, just to bring this on out.

rest in peace to the great Bill Walton figure head of the NBA. I have a story and I'll just throw it to Howard real quick just for the historical ramifications. But I remember there was this one time I was a broke ass intern, paying my way to Vegas for 2016 Pac-12 tournament. And I needed a story. I was working with this website called The Sports Fan Journal, and I needed just to, like, just churn out some content. And I was at a game.

I can't remember which one, but I remember Bill Walton was calling the game. And after the game, I just beeline to him and said, yo, man, can I do a story on you? And he was like, I can't do a Bill Walton in person, but he was like, come on, right?

And just walk behind me, follow me. and like he walks me to like the the locker rooms and stuff like that sits me down, I ask him one question and he gave me like a 30 minute answer. We talked for like 45 minutes and I had a story. He gave me an interview in a time when I really needed one and I didn't know him from anything. And the more I like talk to my homies, there's so many stories that are like that from him, just from a media standpoint. and he was such a one-of-one guy.

I encourage everybody to watch the documentary on ESPN. It's multi-part. It's really, really good. But Bill Walton, man, just we lost a real one. So I just want to give time and space to that. Howard, from a historical standpoint, what does he mean to the NBA? And what did we lose yesterday when we lost Bill Waldt?

First of all, I just want to say, like, on a personal level, like your story about him, Logan, is, it's like everybody's story, right? Like, I started covering the league in 97. Bill was a, you know, he was the color commentator for the Clippers. I didn't see the Clippers that often because I often took those games off.

My editors would pull me off the Lakers Clippers games because we had a clipper writer. I didn't need to be there. And I didn't have that many days off in the course of a season. So they'd sit that one out. So I didn't, I wasn't around him a lot. Like, I was never on a regular basis around Bill.

But all it takes is one introduction, one conversation and he remembers exactly who you are and every time you see him from that day forward and that was the case for me for the last 27 years it's big smile Howard how are you doing all your stuff has been great you would think he has read every story listen to every podcast every radio show watched every uh every tv clip no matter who he's talking to he is telling you you've been doing great you're doing great work i i'd like to think that some of those times he actually did read the thing, you know, that he's talking about. Like, I don't know, but it's just his persona was to be so warm, so positive, so embracing, he might have been, he probably is,

like the most approachable NBA or basketball Hall of Famer there is. Like, you know, it's easy for us to sometimes be intimidated by, especially the older generation, we kind of hold them, we put them on these pedestals and you see him from across the room. Like, I never went to go say hello to Bill Russell. I regret that I never got a chance to meet Bill Russell. And I've talked with Kareem multiple times that every single time, I'm still a little intimidated by Kareem. There's just a presence there. Like the man, the gravitas with that man is just out of this world. And Bill is just their everyday dude.

He's hanging out in the back of a press conference. Logan, you might remember. I think it's the last time I saw him. He was at a Warriors press conference. Yeah, it was before the finals. I remember it was funny because he was sitting behind us. And there was this big ass. foot that bumped my um that bump my chair and and then bill it was bill and i look back and he's like

i'm so sorry i'm so sorry can are you okay can am i am i good behind you am i good and then after that he uh he uh he went look behind him because he didn't sit in the back row and he was like can you guys all see are you guys all good are you everybody fine okay great and he watches adam silver's final press conference it was great it was awesome Yeah, and he would just show up to these things. And he's just like he loves the game. He loves being around the game. He loves talking about the game.

Logan talking about asking one question and having the answer to be 30 minutes. That is, that is, again, that is everybody who's ever interviewed him because he has so much to say you do not need to get specific with the question. You can just tell him what the premise is or just you can just say hello, turn the tape recorder on and go. He is amazing. Just just a great dude. just one of the most joyful people I've ever been around. And man, he's going to be missed by a lot of people. You saw the outpouring on Twitter yesterday and on social media in general was just that said at all.

No one's got a bad word to say about him. And, you know, a great player, great human being. And he was, you know, he was an activist. He was, you know, a social conscience. He was someone who was never afraid to speak his mind on anything. And he loved the game. He was such a great evangelist and representative of the game. And so what the NBA's lost is, you know, it's all of that.

Rest of peace, Bill Walton. Yeah, he's far beyond ruin of the week. But rest and peace to the God. And that has been another edition of Motherfucking Tuesdays. I don't know how many other time we're going to be doing that. But we'll see you guys on Friday. Talk to you guys soon. All the shits.

you're going to send us out with a bye? Bye. Word.