The Ringer NBA Show - Chris Finch Replaces Ryan Saunders As Timberwolves Head Coach. Plus: Draymond’s Ejection, AD’s Injury, and Buyout Season | Real Ones

Episode Date: February 22, 2021

Logan and Raja invite the Mad Hooper Talia Caldwell to tell them why she’s so mad (0:30). Then Logan and Raja get into all the complications and frustrations of the Timberwolves firing head coach Ryan Saunders and immediately having Raptors assistant coach Chris Finch on deck to replace him (5:00), Draymond’s ejection against the Hornets and the referees’ performance this season (29:00), what AD’s injury could mean for the Lakers (38:30), and where DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, and Andre Drummond could be headed (42:00). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Talia Caldwell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Twice a week, Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay dissect the biggest topics in black culture, politics, and sports on their show, Higher Learning. They discuss the most important and timely conversations while also frequently inviting guests on the podcast and occasionally debating each other. Check out Higher Learning on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back with a Mad Hooper. This is Logan Murdoch from the Ringer. We have Mad Hooper. Taya Caldwell of Five Fields Culture. She just came and hit me the other day like, I'm mad.

Talia, why are you mad? I am so mad. And first of all, shout out L.A. born and raised. Just want to put that out there. What I am mad about is the fact that we're not talking about the fact that the Lakers need to trade every single person except for Braun, A.D. Trez and the German, Dennis Schroeder.

Like everyone else, Alex Caruso is averaging four points in 20 minutes. And here's the thing people don't get. Not all stats are the same. Right? Stats him tell the whole story. He's not creating court point for himself. If you play with LeBron, you are getting wide open buckets. I don't care what his percentage says. Like, he was getting cardio the other night.

It was so hard to watch everyone running around. Then you got Wesley Matthews going for a fadeaway three with 16 seconds left. You can just accidentally float the ball up. Like, I do not understand. I don't even know Morris, he's just on vacation, just chilling. like and then I got to watch all the other Laker rejects ball, right? Yesterday I'm seeing Lanzo and Josh Hart play straight up uncle defense, 94 feet, all up in everyone, just there, you know?

You got Josh Hart averaging like double the points of Crusoe in only eight more minutes. Randall, who I was like, where did he come from? He's playing, like everyone is playing better. Everyone playing better than the Lakers have right now. And I cannot stand it and no one's talking about it. And if you play with LeBron A.D., you literally, I gain your career extended. Just accidentally throw up a layup.

Just accidentally. I don't understand it. But I'm saying about it. Okay. We have another mad rapper. Okay. Okay. I'm saying,

I'm saying, Talia, let me tell you why I'm mad. I'm going to tell you why I'm mad. I mean, like I play with some stars. Sometimes it's hard for me to get off when the star got the ball all the time. Like,

yeah, he creates a couple of buckets for me, but like I need the ball too. Like I make the case. The Alice Caruso needs the ball. Four quarter three. Four quarter three. That's wide open.

Where someone's sprinting to close out. And then, okay, context, Mark Gasol is LeBron James' age. That's all I need to say. That's all I need to say. Mark Gasol and LeBron James are the same age. And he's 21 minutes, four and four.

I don't even understand. Like, you are so big. And then he gives, he passes out of layups. It'll be a fast break and someone gets in the ball and, like, he can just like, tip him behind him and he passes back out to half court and like set up, shoot a three. And that's another thing I'm mad about. I'm mad about a lot of things. While fast breaks, I mean fast breaks was a first runner.

Not when you're filling the lanes. First runner, are we floating out to the three? Lonzo did it yesterday in the fourth quarter after a steal. He had a literal layup, and he floated out to the corner, dribbled it out, and I just, I hate everything. I'm upset. Drake was right. He knows my emotions.

And what I just want everyone to know as a de facto Jimmy of the Lakers, everyone's available. Every single person from the training staff. to video guys. You can have anyone. You can, Vogel, what are you drawing up? So every, I mean, just take whoever you want. Just take literally whoever.

Even the long, the long arm, TNT, T, T, T, T, T, H, T, Sung, a drug, just take them. Take all of them. But Mark Dissau, everyone's getting cardio. I felt slightly obligated to, like, be the, be the, take the opposing side there. But welcome to the family, Thalia. I'm with you, man.

Like, hey, somebody has done. I can't argue with. I can't. Everyone's getting cardio. Everyone's getting cardio. And you're getting actual minutes with people and no one's even guarding you. Logan, you see me play. Would I not get two rebounds in 10 minutes?

I mean, she might get two rounds in 10 minutes. Just accidentally. No, not mean accidentally. Just accidentally running. She'll get two rebounds. So, oh, another thing, last thing. Josh Hart grew his hair out after he left the Lakers. You know how I feel about players with braids.

So it's like, why did you wait until you left to get brades? I am all team braids. So I want all of these, the babies of the Lakers, the rejects back. I want all of you back. And you can have whoever you want. Heck, you can have AD because he ain't going to play. He can play like more than 40 games versus his career. So you can have him.

Let's reverse the trade. Do whatever you want. Real ones up next. What's popping? Real ones here. Logan Murdoch, Roger Bell. Roger has a black hoodie on the day. He's ready to roll.

I got the Badu hoodie on him, ready to roll. This is a Monday edition. this is the Media Mondays. We out here. I'm just really turned up right now. But how are you doing, Raj? I'm good. Can I start this show by, like, throwing a little bit of love,

like just a weekend, okay, that illuminated some things for me. I got to get a lot of love, and I'm really hard on Brooklyn. I've been hard on, like, Kyrie. I've been hard on my man, Steve Nash. Like, I've been fair, but hard. I had an experience this weekend with a son. He's a 2025 kid who's only ever played, no, he's a 2028 kids, sorry, who's only ever played 2027.

And if I would say, like, is his dad one of the better 2027 kids around here? I think that's, you could ask a lot of people. So I put him on a 2028 team that needed some help. They think they have a good team. And he joined that team, and he's better than the kids on that team. And it was a disaster. It was an absolute disaster. The team was worse.

He was okay, but not great. The coach couldn't figure out how to, like, use him, even though, you know, he was clearly, better than anything he had. He just wanted to make him like fit a square peg into this round hole. And it was okay, not a big deal,

just a failed experiment. But I gotta give a lot of credit to Brooklyn and my man, Steve and Kyrie and KD and James Harder. That's not easy. And they figure, they're figuring it out, Logan.

Like that's what I came to the realization of like, not everyone can do that. It's a hard thing to like introduce pieces like that. Wait, wait, wait, wait, I gotta do it. I gotta do it.

What is going on right now? I got to do it. Are you, are you, are you, are you, are you, are you, are you, no, no, no, no. What are you doing right now? There's some real fundamental things that I believe in that I think Brooklyn needs to get better at to really like, you know, defensively. I think they just have to be better in the long run, but they're clearly, the narrative is changing on them as they continue to add wins. But I mean just generally speaking, watching a failed experiment in terms of adding a piece of talent to a good team and it not working. has kind of given me a new appreciation for their ability to kind of do that the way they've done it.

It's been really, it's been pretty flawless. I do like how it's, it's like weirdly when the warriors picked everybody up. Everybody is kind of falling into their roles right now, right? Because we thought, oh, who's going to take the ball? Who's going to take the ball? It's Karee's show. It's Karee's show. Actually, we're going to give the ball handling duties of James Hardin.

And we're going to let Karee Cook because he is a, he is a shooting guard and a point guard's body. That's what it is, right? So because he's in a point guard's body, you expect him to beat that point guard, right? But they've given James Hard on the ball, and he hasn't sacrificed his game as much, right? He's still aggressive.

He still has a ball in his hands all the time, but he's passing the ball. He's giving it to guys. He's throwing the ball away. He's giving it and getting everyone else involved. And then you have a guy like Kevin Durant, who is one of the greatest players of all time. But historically, he has been a guy that has deferred,

which is something that you usually don't see with the franchise elite type of player, right? And that upper echelon of top three player who facilitates sometimes to a fault. You know what I mean? So I think that I like the way that Brooklyn is going. Defense has to be figured out. I pick them to be to the finals, but we'll see what happens. I don't know with the defense. but their offense is great, and it's better than I expected right now.

It's better than I expected as well. You know, it's the old added. You can't fit square pegs into round holes, and you can't keep trying to do that. And I would say that basketball in any sport, there's a way that Logan Murdoch likes to watch basketball, right? There's something that meets his eye. There's something that looks good to me in terms of the way I like to watch it.

Just because something doesn't fit your eye doesn't mean it can't be productive and you can't figure out how to win with it. And I think Steve and Mike and company there have done a good job. You know, you just talked about James Harden and naturally thinking, and I said it. You can't have him sacrificing himself. But they saw, like, all right, well, just put the ball in his hands. Like, let him do all the facilitating.

Yeah, Kyrie, everyone wants to say he's a point. Clearly, he's not. He's a two. Just let him eat. You know, they figure it out because they're not trying to fit square pegs in the round holes. I appreciate that. Yeah. And I'm curious to see.

I'm curious to see how it is. when Kevin comes back, not from a negative standpoint, just more so of like, yeah, you know, I think Kevin being injured has helped James and Kyrie figure some stuff out, right? And I think that that can only help. So I'm excited to see what this team does. I think they're going to the finals. We'll see.

They got to get there, but they got to get the defense right. Let's get to some, speaking of coaching, Rogerville, let's get to the shits, man. Let's continue the shits. Ryan Saunders has been fired by the Minnesota Timberwolves. Chris Finch has been put in his place permanently on a permanent basis, which we will get to in a second. So I, Roger, you know, Ryan Saunders, he takes over for coach Tibbs.

But where's Barf today? Where's Barf today? No, where's Barth today? I want to know where Barf is today. Barth was talking. Hey, hey, Barf was talking all that mess. He wanted us to talk about Minnesota Timberwolves. Guess what?

Damn it. Talk about the Minnesota Timberwolves today. Indeed. Indeed. So, it's always, I'm always curious to, you know, kind of talk about the Ryan Saunders era in Minnesota because it's built with a lot of caveats. But I still know, it's one of those things where it's built with a lot of caveats, but I'm still not, don't know if Ryan was ever ready for the job to begin with.

Right. Like he was dealt to bad hand, but I'm not sure it was it was his show to be leading these last few years. Right. So he takes over for Tibbs in 2019. Gets the next season, gets DeAngelo Russell the next year mid-season. A lot of injuries happen. And in this season, a lot of injuries happen to Carl Anthony Towns and DeAngelo Russell. So they only play five games together.

Obviously, CAD is dealing with the COVID issues. with his family, so it's hard to judge all of that. Then you have this kid Anthony Edwards who was bawled. Do you see that duck the other night, Raja? What did I? Oh, my goodness. Was that one of Tabi? Is that who we got banged? We got banged on one.

It was one of those ducks where like he jumps, he gets on a dude and just elevates another time, go, ah, right? Anyway, has Anthony Edwards, who's probably could be the rookie of the year this year. But I'm just going to go to this one. Was it the right decision? I think it was the right decision to fire Ryan Zonders. I don't know about all the what I've ensued afterwards.

I'm not questionable on that. But was this the right decision, Roger? In your eyes. Oh, man. Logan, this is a hard one for me, man. Because, I mean, clearly their record is what it is. It speaks for itself. And some of that has to fall to young Ryan Sanders.

Like you can't say that he doesn't play at least some role in that. It's hard because I'm not in the building. I don't have any real contact in the building that's going to give me insight into whether or not he's out of his depth in terms of being able to coach that team. Do you know what I mean? So I want to be fair to Minnesota as an organization.

Like you're underachieving, it is what it is. Now, I want to be fair to him as well because you just talked about all of the things that would derail a season in terms of injuries and personnel and so on and so forth. And it all speaks to what I usually say about dysfunction in an organization. It doesn't start at the coach.

No. Minnesota has been bad for a long time. Yes. No matter who's coached in Minnesota, dysfunction starts at the top. No matter who's coached in Minnesota. It doesn't matter. It is dysfunction.

And so, you know, I think Ryan Saunders to some degree, if I'm being fair to him, is probably a casualty of that. I don't know that he was a great coach. I can't speak to that. The record is what it is. I'm just say it again.

But I think they have a, bigger problem in Minnesota than a damn head coach. And I would double down on that by saying like who goes out and hire someone off of another team staff midway through the year? When was the last time you've seen that happen? So for context, hired

Chris Finch, really from Toronto and off of their bench and then for a permanent, for a permanent I would say what in the 80s when Paul Westfall got fired from the Lakers? You're talking the eight, boy, if you don't, listen, man.

It's too early in the morning to be playing with my emotions like this, bro. And this one's close to me. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, you asked me a damn question, Roger. All right. You asked me a question. And I tried to get it for you. You ain't going to point that finger. You got that finger pointed right into Zoom camera, boy.

Hey, hey, I got this Arsenio finger point right at you, bro. No, no, I don't believe, I believe that it's, you know, Chris Finch was hired permanently, you know, for this. And, you know, over someone on staff, go ahead, Roger. What is your beef with, tell me, tell them why you mad, son. I'm going to tell you why I'm mad, son. I'm going to tell you why I'm mad, son. One of my former CBA teammates, a very, very good friend of mine, like, I want to get that out of the way. So that's disclosed, okay? But that's not why I have this opinion of David Vantropool. David Vantraple is an assistant coach in Minnesota right now. David Venterpoole, while I was playing in the NBA, started cutting his teeth coaching,

was a good player in Europe. He coached in Europe for a long time and learned under some greats over there. Then he came over and spent a couple years in the front office with Oklahoma City. So learn the job from behind the scenes as well. And then realized that that wasn't exactly where he wanted to be. Started moving up to the bench. Spent years with the Portland Trailblazers cultivated great relationships with Dame Lillard and C.J. McCollum. And I think you've heard both of those guys speak to what he meant, David Venterpull that is, to them. And they're, and their young selves as they became the players that they were going to become in the league. Highly respected and regarded has had multiple, you know, interviews, never got hired for the job.

But we communicate a lot. And I tell him, hey, man, your time's coming. Just stay ready. It's going to pop. Like, he's that good. He's sitting right there. He's sitting right there on the bench. And yeah, you could say, yeah, well, you know, he's part of that staff, so on and so forth.

The fact is Ryan Saunders is doing Ryan Saunders things. Like, he's right there. I just thought that the opportunity to have an interim guy, if you really didn't believe, that David was the guy, or you weren't sure of it. Give him the interim tag right now. Let him run it, run it, run it. And I believe that he would have showed them that he was the guy. I've just, if you picked another assistant on that team, fine, give him the interim tag and it was over DV.

But going out and getting a guy from another staff and giving him the full-time gig, like, I just don't see that. You don't see that. It doesn't happen. Here's a thing. And this is why you let them get the interim tag, why you go let your boy get the interim. tag while you go let your boy get the interim tag because it's midseason already. The season's over, bro. The season is over.

There's no postseason to be had. You're not losing anything by having this interim guy. You're not. If you're making this other dude a permanent dude, if you're making Chris Finch a permanent dude, he's still having the same chance in a lame duck season, right? Like you're not changing anything. You're just paying more money right now, right? That's all you're doing.

That's all you're doing. And you have a potentially really good coach who's vouched for by Dame Lillard, who's vouched for by, who's coach Kevin, Durant, Russell Westbrook, all these guys in Oklahoma City,

proven track record. Did everything that you're supposed to do as an assistant? Did everything you're supposed to do as an assistant that most people have done for less and have gotten coached? People have done stuff for less than gotten coaching jobs mid-season. Damn right. And Logan, here's the other thing from a player's perspective.

If I'm in that locker room and you fire Ryan, I got to forge a whole new brand new relationship and build trust and do all of that with someone coming from another organization midstream. That's a very difficult thing to do. For so many reasons, it is much easier to just slide one of your assistants into that spot. Trust has already developed.

I can tell you this. People in that locker room like David Vantraple. I know that because I've seen everywhere he's been, including when I played with him, He's that kind of dude. People like him. Like the players are going to like him. He's going to have their ear.

There's going to be a relationship. Allow that to play itself out. To the point you made seasons are wrap anyway, dog. You get a free look at this. Like we can see if it is what it is. And then at the end of the day, if it's not what you think it should be, you can go out and hire young Chris Finch. I have no beef with that.

But you don't even, he better be, he better be the damn coach of the year next year. Here's the thing, though, man. Like, it's such a lost season that it, I'm sorry, I'm just steamed right now. I'm just steamed. I'm hot too. I remember when the Kings went to go get George Carl, right?

Right. You get them mid-season. It doesn't make a difference. And a lot of those guys, and there was a lot of other stuff that happened with the Sacramento Kings back then, but who were also a model franchise of dysfunction back then. But back then they, all the coaches, I mean, all the players were like, I don't know about this. I don't know about this.

There were a lot of pushback for Carl. And then he wound up being, it wound up not being good at all for either party involved because no one really, no one really in the locker room really wanted him in there. And you know this as much as anything. When you're an NBA player, respect can be gained. It's hard to gain respect, but it's really, really easy to lose it. And so you're going to have to take all the rest of that season to try to gain that respect from the guys who are probably already like, man, we wanted our dude.

We wanted our guy. And so you have to building that. So this season, in my opinion, is lost. It's lost because you're taking a guy from, so you're taking a guy from another organization to coach guys that maybe majority might not be on the team next year. Right? So that's all awesome. And you have to have to have to have a whole offseason to build that trust all over again. So it's not a win.

It's a lose, lose for everyone involved. Let me do a better job I want to do a better job Because I got a little Like I got excited And you got a little mad son Yeah my voice My voice tends to rise

And then I get you know It kind of screezed a little bit You're It loses effect Yeah From from a player on that team's perspective I'm sitting in that locker room We are I don't know

What are we 40 30 some games in Whatever it is I'm sitting in that locker room You fire my head coach We are playing a game In a couple nights Right The difficulty

of a new coach coming in that has no affiliation with what you're doing offensively, defensively, terminology, all of that. The difficulty for the coach is off the charts. So he would have to come in and learn all of that stuff in order to be player friendly and not try to completely upset the Applecar with the players in terms of players having a whole new system and figure out how to play within that system on the fly, which is virtually impossible. That's what training camps are for, for you to learn the system that your coach wants to do, the terminology of it, how you want to execute it.

So that would be, you know, one way they could approach it. Coach has to come in and learn everything that's already in place and, you know, get up to speed on the fly. But, you know, as an organization, if you're going to go outside a house and bring it a guy, it means you want all new thought, right? Like, you want a new culture. You want new stuff. Do you know how hard it would be for me as a player and 12 other guys in that locker room to on, like, Wednesday, sit down with the guy and him say, all right, everything that you worked on for four months or three months, scrap it.

We're starting from scratch. And here's what we're going to do offensively. And here's what we're going to do defensively. It takes months to get good at new stuff like that. You don't just roll out of bed and understand the terminology. I mean, you might understand it, but the execution of it is something that takes time to develop. You know, it gets drilled into you.

And so it's an impossible thing for players to change all of that up midseason. I think for so many reasons, it was the. wrong call. I cannot, I cannot be more like blunt about that. This function starts at the top. Yeah. Now, a question for this, because we alluded to this in the beginning, this has to go right.

Right. And I think it has to go right from a multitude of reasons, right? The Timberwolves are a team that's just kind of in the abyss right now, man. Like, they have Carl Anthony Towns, haven't really been able to win with

Cat. And this is all respect to everything he's going through right now. I just want to say that. But having been able to win with him, make this trade for his homie, DeAngelo Russell, they haven't been able to play on the same court. And then you draft this kid Anthony Edwards, who I think

is going to be a problem. He's tough. You have a really young, and then you already traded Andrew Wiggins. Right? You have this really young team, but it doesn't seem like it's fully intact yet. And it doesn't seem like it fully makes sense just yet. I feel

like you're going to have to trade, you know, DeAngelo at some point, or you're going to have to make a trade to make sure, or something to make sure that back court works. I don't think that this is, back court is in its final form. But they're in this real weird abyss to where are just going to get another draft pick that's probably going to happen, another first round pick? What is, how important is it to get this right from a coaching standpoint? When you have all these things going on around you, all around the team in terms of, you know, roster building, playing, you know, potential player movement.

How do you, how important is it to lock down the right coach at this right time in this, uh, organization? I mean, I said it in just a minute ago. Like he doesn't have to be the coach of the year next year,

but Logan, he better be the right fit. He better be damn good. Because it, again, it speaks to the overall. They've been what I thought Phoenix was, you know,

because I mean, Phoenix is near and dear to my heart. Phoenix was like kind of three or four years ago. and when I would talk about them, I would say they're just, they seem like a rudderless ship. There's no real direction. You know,

you're, you're just kind of, you know, picking players out of the wind, like all willy-nilly. Like, where are you going with it? Can we see it start to take form?

Can we, can you as a franchise get us as the public and the fans to see the vision that you have for where this is supposed to go? We can with Phoenix now, right? Like they've kind of gotten you to see, oh, okay,

here's what we're doing. This is what we're building towards. Minnesota, you can't say that about. Like, there are teams in the league. I think Detroit falls into that category. No one has any idea what you're trying to do. Like, it's just like you're taking stuff and throwing it at the wall.

Here, let's see if that sticks. And so it becomes really important that they get this correct. Like the coach has to be someone that can, you know, take what seems to be dysfunction from the top and overcome it. Really have control of what they're going to do on the court and get some of these pieces that I don't think are great fits. Like when you ask me, you know, when they made some of these moves, I didn't think they were great fits, but, you know, figure out how to make them fit. Kind of like I was ranting about to start the pod. Not going to be insistent on fitting square pegs into round holes, going to be able to look at it, not only from the way he sees it. And here's the deal with, and not every guy falls into this category. I don't know his background. But I see it more with guys who didn't play the game than I do it with guys who played the game. guys who didn't play the game come up and they only see it through the prism

that they think it works through. Like this is the way it's going to be done. Here's the way I'm going to handle it. Here's what we're going to do. Like we're going to have, you see the interview with the guy who took the Eagles job? What's his name? Sirion,

whatever his name is. We're going to have systems in place. And then our systems are going to be in place. And we can't believe you, I can't believe you could like listen through that because, I mean, he was like, he was so ill prepared and it was such an embarrassment

of a press conference. Go ahead. Well, that was definitely why I watched, because I just wanted to see how bad it was. But within that, I was able to kind of hear what he was saying, which was he's got systems. And he wants to go in there and he wants to kind of reinvent the wheel with his systems. And they'll be good because of his systems. And once you understand the systems, then you don't have to think about the systems. That's a guy seeing it only one way. He sees it working like this. This is how it's got to work. And that's not always the way, you know, the game. is played. Like you have to have flexibility to be a head coach in the NBA. You have to have the ability to kind of, you know, be spontaneous and change on the fly. Like there have to be things that you can adjust to as a coach and as the personnel around you changes that you don't see all the time. And so it's going to be interesting to see if this young coach can do it. The only person that I would see that was married, only old school coaches are like married to a system. Like Phil Jackson was married to the triangle.

for years to his detriment till he got till it to the game just kind of passed that offense by. And it's, I think that we're seeing a shift or hopefully I would like to see a shift of coaches,

coaching the team that they have as opposed to trying to get the team to fit his system. Yeah, and I, maybe I wasn't, like, I don't know if I mean purely the system in terms of how you're going to play. Like what, I mean, you said system like 17 times, rather.

So I was just going off your thing. Yeah, no doubt. But that's what Nick was saying. And I think what he was meaning by his systems were like his ideology and like the way he's going to, you know, the way they're going to practice, the way they're going to approach it. Their culture more or less, you know what I mean? Like, and I don't necessarily mean X's and O's. Like overall, just how you're going to conduct yourself in that locker room and how you're going to develop a culture in that locker room. and what you're going to be about as a team.

And sometimes that requires some flexibility. Much easier at the college game to be a, here's how we're going to do it. Like fall in line. I believe in this. And this is the way we're going to do it. But in those NBA locker rooms sometimes, you got to be flexible, ma'am.

Yeah, you got to be. And this is the most, we've talked about, this is 30 minutes. We talked about the Timberwolves. Timberwolves talk and Timberwolves. So, you know, barf and all you guys need to relax. All you, everybody just needs to relax, okay?

No doubt. Next time to do something good so we can talk for 30 minutes. minutes on you guys. All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back with something that has been on my mind for a minute. All right, and we're back. So, Raja, we're talking to the pre-show, which we typically do just to kind of get a gauge of the whole show that we're about to do. I'll throw down the topics and run down some things.

So the next topic that we're doing during the pre-show, you just had a, I could see the smoke and venom just coming out of your ears when we're talking about this. we're talking about Draymond Green's ejection over the weekend. Now, let's just talk about the play. Gets a jump ball or thinks he's getting to jump ball. It's a jump ball. He gets the ball and wrestles with Gordon Haywood. And winds up getting a technical foul because he thought, because I think Charlotte got a timeout.

He thought that they were supposed to get a jump ball. He goes berserk on a ref. gets technical, gets ejected, double technical gets ejected. The Charlotte Hornets get two free throws. They wound up winning a game on a Terry Rozier three. You had Venom for that. You said the refs have been real out of pocket and shaky lately. You're not going to get fine for this, Raja.

So go ahead. What do you have to say about the refs this season and start with the particular play and tell me how you've been feeling about? Tell me what you're mad about the reps this season. Go ahead. All right. Well, since that's happened, and look, Draymont's had his history with the rest, right? Like, there was the instance where he was yelling at a teammate, and the rest had to come out and say they made the mistake in, you know, in the heat of the moment. And, and, you know, Draymond was, you know, kicked out of a game that he shouldn't have been kicked out of.

But in this instance, like, you know, you might, you've probably gone too far, right? Your coach comes out and says, you've gone too far. You're going too far. Like, I can't, I can't really fault the rest for that if you're yelling and screaming. and Draymond gets really exciting and yells some wild stuff at referees, right? But since then, what's happened is that, you know, JJ Reddick has an instance where he's given a technical foul. And then there's a couple of plays transpire. And the next time down, there's a foul call. And he kind of spins a ball at a referee, if you will.

Now, the ref happens to be looking over at the scores table and catches it out of the corner of Zion, has to kind of react and put his foot up. And I could see that the ref felt like kind of threatened and disrespected in that and kicks him out of the game. I just have a problem. I thought that that one was unwarranted. You did not have to kick him out. And here's the problem, general problem that I find with referees. And it's not all referees, but I've had my fair share of experiences with referees.

They, you know, and I find it interesting, you know, the pod, I don't know what it's because is a whistleblower pod or something like that. It's a Tim Donoie pod. I enjoyed that just because I wanted to hear it. Now, Tim Donnie, he could have reason to kind of lie about the part that he played in the scandal and whether he was betting on certain things or not, but I don't know that he would lie about the culture of referees. And it illuminated a lot of that as well, right? Like, these are guys with really big egos. Do you know what I mean? And it's not unlike NBA players. Like, they've worked

their way up through, you know, the minor leagues and farm systems and scouting combines and and these meat markets of like referees all trying to stand out to really reach the apex of their career, which is an NBA official, right? So when they get there, they're the best of the best. The same way an NBA player is the best of the best. So everyone in this equation has this massive ego, right? The problem for an NBA ref is ain't nobody there to see your ass. They're there to see the players. So if someone's got to give up some of the ego in this particular equation, it is you, buddy. It is you. And I think far too often that's lost on referees. Like, they deem themselves the show or part of the show.

You're not. You're there to make sure that the show goes off without a hitch. And I think they insert themselves in situations too often that could dictate the outcome of a game. When you don't need that, if you're an NBA fan, you don't. And that's my beef with refs. On the flip side of that, Raja, right? You made a great point that people aren't coming to see them throw LeBron James out in the second quarter because they paid all that money to go see LeBron James.

Now on the flip side of that, how did you feel as a player when LeBron got preferential treatment or Kobe got preferential treatment on foul calls because like you said, the reps are there to, you know, on the flip side when they're like, hey, Kobe, we're giving you more leeway, man. You got that one tech. We're keeping you in the game. I know you elbowed Roger in the neck and he fell out and he's still on the ground right now. Like he's still laying on the ground right now. Hey, Roger, you good?

Ross, are you good? You good? You good? Okay, he's up now. But how do you feel on the flip side of it as a player when you're like, come on man, I just want a fair shot. Yeah, that kind of sucks. I've talked about that before.

But you have to know your role. You have to know who you are. And you know that as a player, though. It took me a while to figure that out, Logan. Like, I figured it out. I explained it to like my family and whoever it was. I was an extra in a movie. you know, I was, maybe not an extra, but maybe, maybe like, you know, some kind of supporting character.

You're just supporting character in the peripheral of a movie. You know, it was like 13 points a game. Put some respect in your name, bro. I was, but I was paid well to do it. And I, and I didn't mind it. It was okay. I understood how that went. I understood the dynamic there. Like, that's part of making the show what it is. So I didn't have, I didn't have beef with that. And I'm not saying that refs hasn't, have an easy job to do. If someone goes over there and curses you out and calls you all kind of things outside your given name and is chesting up with you and all that kind of stuff, yeah, you have to get rid of them. I get that. But there's certain instances where I believe refs could just walk away and just try to diffuse the situation, which I know because my sister was a college ref, my dad was a college refact. You're taught to try to diffuse those situations, not antagonize and perpetuate whatever's already taking place.

And far too often in the NBA, they don't do that because there's ego at stake. Like, these dudes are, you know, big time refs. And I can dig it. But this isn't your show. It's not the refs show. This isn't the, you know, the, the, the, the, NRA. It's not, I mean, I know there's NRA, but it's not a national refs association. It's the national basketball association.

They're there to see basketball. Like, you don't need to be inserting yourselves and fueling fires that you could put out by just, you know, swallowing the whistle sometimes and walking away. What is the perfect ref for you? What is the, if create a ref right now, Roger, all 99 overall, just create one right now. I don't know how this can come up. Over six feet. Oh, come on.

Nah, no, hey, listen, I'm going to keep with a buck. Them little reps. Hey, listen, those little reps are the worst. The little reps are the worst, man, because they got like extra to prove on you, man. Like, it's the Polion Complex. Who was the short refth that got on your nerves? There were a lot of them that got on my nerves. Say a name.

I don't, I mean, I'm not how, you look them up. I mean, there are a lot of, there are a lot of short reps that I had beef with or tech me or kicked me out. Like, it's not a problem. It is what it is. But if I were creating the perfect ref, like I would say, over six feet, right? You know, not, like, you have to have a strong hand. Like, I'm not, I'm not saying you need to be a pushover.

You need to have a strong hand. You need to be confident in the calls that you make. But you also have to be, you have to have a level of, humility and understanding. Like I never, I always thought a ref could do a great job in a game. I had this conversation the other day by just once when a player said something to them

admitting that they may have missed it. There's no harm in that. There's some equity that you get with a player or a coach when you do that as a ref. If you're the ref that I come to and I've never been able to convince you that it wasn't what you saw, that means you're never wrong. And that's

not possible. Do you understand? And so at least once in a while being able to say, and we see these refs time and time again. So it doesn't have to be every night you do this, but at least one time in my exchange with said perfect ref, I say, hey, man,

like that wasn't what you thought it was. And you come back to me and be like, you know what, Raj, I might have missed that, bro, but I got you, I got you. It doesn't change the equation, but at least, at least you're approachable, you know, and we can have that conversation.

So here's another thing. What about if the ref says, like, all right, man, I'm going to throw you, and I'm just playing devil's advocate. What if the ref says, like, I'm going to throw you a, I was wrong. And then the NBA, the player goes after the game, when they lose, the NBA player goes to the media and is like, well, the ref told me he was wrong.

So, I mean, well, I've never, I've never seen a player do that yet. And I've had plenty of, there are plenty of good refs. There have been plenty of exchanges with me and referees and players and referees where a good refliff will say to you, hey, I might have missed that. Or, hey, you know, we looked at it at halftime and it was what you said it was, you know, and we've never thrown them under the bus. Like, we wouldn't go out there and do that. So that would be my rebuttal. Like, I have more respect for you if you tell me that you made a mistake because I know good and damn well that you're capable of making mistakes. Just like I've blown some of my assignments tonight as a player.

You've blown some of your fucking assignments tonight as a ref. I blew my assignment as a podcast for today with the wrong headphones. It happens, man. It happens, bro. Anyway, I want to get into Lakers and Buyouts talk right now. Now, the Lakers, I don't know if you're aware of this, Roger, but AD is out for four weeks with an Achilles issue and a calf issue. Honestly, I would push that back about six weeks, six, seven weeks.

Just make whatever it takes for him to be okay, you leave him out as long as possible. Especially when you hear the words Achilles and calf. We learned that a couple years ago with Kevin Durant. You do not rush these guys back when it's an Achilles calf type thing. Now, he is out. Before we get to the bio stuff, let's talk about what this means for the Lakers, right? I am of the mind that, first of all, I think LeBron is playing like an MVP,

but I am of the mind when you're talking about a team like the Lakers, a veteran team, right? Where one of your best players is year 18, right? I'm of the mind that you just, you rest LeBron. throughout you wrestle who you need to rest in order as long as you have a playoff seed right because especially around this time where you there are no fans in the building they're not that many fans in but not enough to have a home court advantage in my opinion right there's not there's not a lot of fans in the building you are a veteran team who has seen a lot all you got to do is get there right now man all you got to get there do is get there in your

title contender in my opinion i see say you rest LeBron whenever you need to, especially with this turnaround that we had since the bubble. And as long as you get to the spot you need to get to, it's fine. What do you think, Roger? Do you think you rest LeBron or you think you have to go full throttle with Bronbon, well, this is certainly not ideal, bro. And I don't just mean like, you know, for AD being injured. But I mean, you wanted to, this year needed to be a passing of the torch, so to speak, for LeBron. He needed to start getting some of the weight lifted off of his shoulders and continue to transfer that to Anthony Davis's shoulders. And so this is creating just the opposite effect.

Like you're now loading more weight on an 18-year veteran shoulders that cannot be good for the long-term prospects of the Lakers. So I tend to agree with you, Logan, that he needs to be rested. I think it has to be a fluid situation, though. I think it has to be, you know, play it by ear. Maybe we give him a night off. if we win that, you know, and we see we can navigate it. Maybe we double down. You know, I don't think you can go out there and just say we're giving him chunks of time off

because I don't know how that team, you know, I don't know how they navigate that. And I do think if you're the Lakers, you want a top four seed. Like you don't, you don't want to slip down to seven and eight and wind up drawing a tougher first round, you know, matchup. Also, also the playing. You don't want to fall down to the plans. Yeah, you don't want any part of any of that. So you're trying to navigate resting LeBron and agreeing with you that they don't have to be the one or two seed necessarily, but you don't want to slip down to where you're in danger of drawing a super crazy first round matchup or having to work your way back into it.

So it's got to be fluid, but I do think you are correct. You cannot put this many miles on LeBron through this season. LeBron, you know, injuries are what derail these seasons more often than not, man. And you're going to rest AD and you have to err on the side of it. caution again, I'm in agreeance with you on that. Like, this cannot be messed around with. It must be 100% before he's back on the court. Then you have to get creative

with LeBron. Make sure you get him some rest. Yeah. Now, to the buyouts. Boogie Cousins has been, it's been reported that he would be parting ways with the Rockets. Hey, I'm going to just say this. So the Rockets did him a solid because they guaranteed his contract

before they agreed to part ways with him. So, you know, we all know this business. that they could have been some snakes about it. So, respect to the Rockets for guaranteeing his deal. He's going to be on the free agent market, buyout, free agent market. Andre Drummond could be on the buyout market.

Blake Griffin can be on the buyout market. Could be. But do you, what do you think out of those three players for the Lakers? Do you think, Boogie, what do you think is the best fit out of them? For the Lakers, well, Andre Drummond's the most talented of the group. So, I mean, he's, you know, and he's got more left, not talented, I should say, he's got more left in the tank, right? Like, he's more of a producer right now than the other two. So let me say that first.

I don't think he's going to go to the Lakers. I actually think, I think boogie's probably the better fit for them than Blake Griffin. I think, you know, him and Mark a soul split in those minutes, you got another guy who can kind of facilitate. he's a good pastor. He doesn't have what he had in terms of an overall scoring output from a big's perspective, but he's another really big body that can work down there in the paint.

They killed people with their size last year in that bubble. You know, when the league is trending towards smaller, you know, five wings on the floor, like they just come in there like with two bigs, Anthony Davis at the four and another monster big. And Dwight Howard? And Dwight, yes, right. And so now you would be adding boogie cousins

with Mark Asole. Like, I think he's probably the better fit for the Lakers. I do. I just, I think that, you know, in a limited role, Boogie can be effective. He's just not as explosive as he once was, man. And it just, it sucks to see, like, all those knee injuries, all those leg injuries and things like that.

I would agree with you, but I'm just not sure, like, can Boogie handle it? Can he handle, they're going to have to monitor him from a health standpoint as well. Oh, no doubt. They are going to have to monitor that. And same with Blake. The only part, I would, it would be between Blake and Boogie for me.

And I think Boogie wins out every time if you're going to, and I think it's, I think it's probably inevitable that he ends up in Los Angeles. But, you know, we'll see what happens. He's a perfect fit. Yeah, look, Blake would be, Blake is good too, but you're going to play LeBron a lot at the four. Do you know what I mean?

Like you're going to play LeBron and four, who plays the four for you and stuff like that. Like even Boogie in a limited capacity, which clearly he is. You just split the time with Mark Asole when you got fives on the floor for them.

You know what I mean? And he doesn't have to, their fives don't do that much heavy lifting. Also would like to see Boogie like get a ring. Like I know he got the ring from last year but I mean, he didn't play at all.

And you know, for him to get a ring in the second go around, that'd be good for him. But as long as you get Boogie, I think he's a perfect fit because he's already been in the system. We talked about coaches

being in the system earlier and what that does. But to have a player who already knows the system, I think that'll work out really well. I think Boogie would be great on that team. That's a good point. I don't know where, I don't know where.

I think Drummond is his ideal situation is if he gets bought out and goes to the Brooklyn Neds. I think that would be ideal, right? What would you see if Blake got bought out? What would you see where Blake would go? What do you think? Let's play GM a little bit. Let's see. I put down a few things for Blake Griffin.

The Lakers were one of the places that I thought would be a good destination for him. but let's say we say boogie's going to go there. I thought the Milwaukee Bucks was an interesting situation for Blake Griffin. You know, you could play with Janus at the five. He gives you another four to come in, space the floor,

allow Janus to continue to get downhill. The Nets, believe it or not, if Drummond doesn't go to Brooklyn, if they're not able to get him, just purely for depth in the front court, another body, another, you know, guy who's not a great three-point shooter, but again, well, space the floor can rebound.

the Sixers are an interesting spot for Blake Griffin, Logan. Yeah. That's my pick. My pick is the Sixers for him, just with Doc. And again, familiarity in the middle of a season. Absolutely. And here's one that's interesting because I think those other places are Nets, Sixers, Lakers, Bucks are teams, maybe not the Buck so much.

But the other one's good for Blake in terms of having real championship aspirations this year. So as an older player, maybe being like that older vet they need just to get over the hump and win the chip, right? And get yourself a chip. But the Celtics are an interesting name for him. I don't think they win a chip. But I think he has a bigger role with the Celtics than he would probably with some of those other teams. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah. They've struggled at the four at times this year when they're, you know, when they're playing. They play like, I don't know, three dudes at the four. They're searching. Yeah, I don't know. I'd love to see him going to Sixers. I mean, I know that I think they're trying to actively trade. Blake Griffin.

So if they buy him out, I would love to see him on the Sixth or somewhere. And I think that he would flourish there with a familiarity. And he doesn't really have them much pressure to do much. Like, you just, you know, just a guy. And it's crazy to see, you know, another thing with injuries,

somebody that was a top 10, top five, I don't know, top five, a top 10 player in the league year and year out. Just like had outside MVP chatter. It's tough to see Blake go like that. injuries are bitch. Can I do something real quick? Can I do something? I want to hijack this because I want to tee you up on a few. I just want I'm, I mean, these are Andre German destinations and I want you to tell me what you think of them, all right? Okay. Dallas Mavericks. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

All right, fine. We'll keep moving. Toronto. I like them in Toronto. They'll be nice. Right? Yeah, yeah. Lost both bigs have a huge void there in the middle. How about the Hornets? I wouldn't want it. Like, Hornets would be cool. Like, I think there would be. a nice fit, but like if I'm German, why would I leave to go to a bad team, right? I know it's an up and coming team. But that's what I

would like. Why would I leave to go to an umpic coming team? That's not there yet. I'm trying to win a chip. Fair, fair, fair. Okay. Then this is my last one. Perfect. The Clippers, bro. Clippers will be good. Clippers would be good because they need size

in a real way. They need size because you got to go through the Lakers. You have to go through the Lakers and that was something that that really killed them in the postseason, man. They need size. I think that would be, oh, man, you should, you should work in someone's front office, man. Yeah, right.

Man, but that was another edition of the Real On the Rear-Wen's podcast. And you just, that was a different, another edition. You butted, you went right into that. I just want to say before we, before we get out of here, man, early candidate for Real One of the Week of Sopcha for editing this podcast because there's a lot of things going in and out right now. And, uh, yeah. I apologize.

I want to thank Talia Caldwell for coming on. She's really great. Check her out at Five Fifth Culture. Also, she has New York Times bylines, players tripping bylines. Go check out her Twitter to esoteric Talia. Make sure you go listen to all of our shows. The Void with Kevin O'Connor. For the Void!

You have group chat. We have the mismatch. We have the Ringer NBA show. The whole feed is dope. The Ringer music show, my guy, Charles Holm. The R2C2 with who, Roger Bell? Vallejo Legend, C-C-Sabathia. Damn right.

And Black Girl Song Book with Danielle Smith. And this week, make sure you go on the ringer.com and check out video game week. And we will see you guys on Thursday where we get our little NBA guest popping. We'll see you then. Holla. Bye. See you. Bastale Vista!