The Ringer NBA Show - Chris Paul Officially Calls It a Career. Plus, the Beef Between Ja and Klay.

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

One of the greatest point guards in NBA history has officially decided to call it a career. Chris Paul will retire at the end of the season after playing for 20 years and seven different franchises. Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck discuss CP3’s legacy and what he brought to the NBA and the franchises he’s played for. Plus, Klay Thompson exchanged words with Ja Morant when the Grizzlies faced the Mavericks on Saturday and had some stark comments for Morant after the game. Was he correct in his assessment of Ja? (0:00:00) Intro (1:03) FanDuel ad break (1:57) Chris Paul to officially retire (2:11) CP3’s career timeline (9:54) Chris Paul’s perception across the league (31:55) What will be said about his career when it’s all said and done? (38:42) FanDuel ad break (39:48) Amazon Prime ad break (40:35) Klay Thompson’s comments about Ja Morant (55:06) Did Derik Queen mess with the basketball gods? Hit the mailbag! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out rg-help.com to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producers: Victoria Valencia and Clifford Augustin Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz and Conor Nevins Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping? Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here, AKA Lolo, aka Logie Booth 2. And in this episode, me, Howard Beck and Rajabell talk about the legacy of Chris Paul and give him his flowers and also take a critical look at his career. That was a really, really fun segment. Then we talk about Jha versus Clay. Who is right and who is wrong?

Does Jha have a point? Or was Clay Spitting Facts? I think you know the answer here, right? And I think that, you know, it's just really sad to see what's going on in Memphis right now. I think Clay Thompson said it best. There was much reverence for the grit and grind era. And this era of Memphis Grizzlies basketball is a lot of talent, but not a lot of substance and a lot of talk. Then we examine if Derek Queen disrespected the basketball gods.

Did he disrespect the basketball gods by stealing the ball and dunking it down 20 with no time left? Who knows? We get into all of that. Before I get out of here, make sure you tap into Romansmailbag at gmail.com, ruin's mailbag at gmail.com. Rem onesmailbag at gmile.com. We didn't get to your mailback today. We'll get to it eventually.

All right. I think that's it. You're listening to The Ringer NBA show presented by Fandul. Fandul now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen. And with the latest updates to the live events and player pages, it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri, get excited because Fandul's coming your way December 1st. Download the Fandul Sportsbook app now and play your game.

21 plus in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Helph.com. Call 188-789-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Cliff, play the theme music. It's popping. Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Roger Bell there.

Howard Beck also here. Man, you know what to talk about. Let's get right to it, bro. I was really sad this weekend, guys, because we got a news. dump, a Saturday news dump. And it was not befitting of what this guy is, Mr. Chris Paul, the 12-time All-Star All-Star Game MVP in 2013, four-time, All-N-B-A first team, five-time, all-MBA, second team, two-time, all-MBA, third team, seven-time, all-defenseant first team. Wow. Really great illustrious career rookie of the year. NBA's 75th anniversary team.

And I was really sad guys because I was like, this doesn't deserve a Saturday news dope. You know, this guy is a top three, top five point guard. We need to celebrate this guy. So right now, we're going to celebrate the legacy of Chris Paul. Let's start with Howard on this one. I want to ask, where does he fit all time in the point guard discussion? And let's go from there. Let's start there.

Where does he fit? It's tough guys. It's like I am terrible at the historic ranks. I'm terrible mostly because I think it's just really hard to parse this stuff, right? We've got these guys in different eras, different styles of play, and we're trying to make them all fit next to each other. So all I'll say without ranking them in order is that if magic is the consensus as the all-time greatest point guard, and I think he is, then it starts to become preference where you put

the rest of them, right? But is Chris Paul all-time, no worse than a top five, all-time great at point guard? Yeah. But it's interesting. I started going back and forth to all these different lists, like, how do people rank them? You know, magic is always up there. Oscar Robertson's always up there. John Stockton, all-time assist leader, a record that will probably never be touched, is up there. Steph broke in there the last few years, but then you have the discussion of, well, is Steph Curry really a point guard? And that's where we start getting into stylistic stuff, and historic stuff and the eras and the game has changed. And it's, it's, it's tough.

Steve Nash, two-time MVP, Jason Kidd. And then, you know, Isaiah Thomas, the first Isaiah Thomas, of course. And if you want to go deeper, obviously way back, there's Bob Kuzi, which, again, it's hard to start comparing eras, but Kuzi and his era was an absolute stud. Yeah. I mean, anyway, that's a lot of names. I don't think Chris Paul could be any worse than fifth on the list. And I'll leave it to everybody to decide how they want to order them and what they prioritize

most. He didn't have the championships. He didn't have the finals. But Chris Paul's career, I noted this yesterday to Logan when we were meeting, this to me speaks best about Chris Paul. This to me is like the top line among everything, right? we can talk stats, we can talk everything, through 20 seasons that he's completed so far, not counting this one.

Raja, you know how many times Chris Paul's been on a losing team in 20 seasons? What? One? None? Four. Four. But that's like, and he's been the best player on his team or at worst co-star for most of that. So he's solely responsible for all those winning seasons. He missed the playoffs only five times. The first two times were his first two seasons. in the NBA with the then New Orleans Hornets. He missed again in the 2009-10 season when he had a bunch of injuries.

He missed when he was with the Warriors a couple years ago, but they still won 46 games and then lost in the play in. And then he missed last year with the spurs. That's it. Those are the only years that Chris Paul missed the playoffs, either injured or on rebuilding teams, basically, or he or or his or the start of his career. The guy made the playoffs 13 straight seasons from age 25.

through age 37. So he basically never missed the playoffs when he was the best player on his team in his prime and even post prime. You can't say that about a lot of other stars. Even some all-time greats don't have that. Point being, dude is just a flat-out fucking winner and whatever else people want to say about him

about, you know, the botched plays against Memphis back in the day or the Houston falling short, whatever else you want to say, the guy, every team he was on, he made a winner. And that includes going to the Phoenix Suns, who hadn't made the playoffs in 10 years and immediately getting them to the finals with Devin Booker and DeAndreighton and that crew. So incredible career. I don't care about the lack of rings. And, you know, I hope he gets a really great fun farewell tour because he's earned it.

Can you explain Roger what it was like to play against Chris Paul? Like, because he feels like a guy, and me and Howard talked about this yesterday, just a guy that will literally take every, advantage that he can against you and for better or worse. Like he doesn't care about your feelings. There's a great John Ritter-Con piece talking about, you know, we don't like Chris and it's okay, right? And that's kind of the point here. But how did that manifest on the court?

What was that like? Yeah, I mean, I don't think I was truly matched up against him a ton. He was probably a little too quick, a little too good in space for that to be my primary a lot but uh he did you know the first thing that strikes out sticks out to me was was you know weirdly the word dirty um not in a negatively like connotated way because like i mean for me that's kind of uh given flowers right because there wasn't anything overtly like trying to hurt anyone but would do anything that you could do to win a game i appreciate that because that's the way I played, right?

So, you know, that's what I think of when I think of Chris Paul. Like someone that if you said, hey, bro, we got to get down into the gutter to go get this game. Will you go there? The answer was yes. When you would think that would normally be the case for a lot of, you know, true NBA legends, but not necessarily so. Like Chris Paul was not afraid to get down and get in the gutter and do whatever it took to win games. And, you know, for me, I look at that with affection and kind of admire that because he wasn't out there trying to make friends.

He was out there trying to win games. And I think Howard, to some degree, you know, that reflects what you just talked about, right? Like, that's why his teams were always viable like that. That's why you could drop him on teams and culture could shift and change the way that they did. Because a lot of times in the league, you know, it is about, you know, the things. things that are superficial and don't always lead to winning cultures. And when you get someone like Chris Paul and you plug him in and he's about those things and you obviously have to have other things in place as an organization.

But if you do when you plug him in, you could do some pretty cool stuff because he's about all of the shits. So like what, you know, when I said dirty, I really meant that in the most positive, you know, affectionate way because he, he would try rip your arm off if it meant he could win that game. And you can't always say that for a lot of guys in the NBA because, you know, it's the brotherhood. It's the, it's the fraternity. Hey, man, you know, there's a lot of love going around, you know, here and rightfully so.

But at some point a line is drawn as a competitor and you got to be willing to go after that W, even if it crosses the line and your buddy in that next locker room might think you were a dick that night. Chris Paul didn't have a problem doing that. It was funny. I'm referencing this Jordan Ritter-Connor piece. a lot in this in this episode, but he was, he quoted Chris Paul's brother as to like why Chris Paul is the way he is. And Chris Paul's brother, CJ says he has a small man's complex. And then he grew. Then he grew in high school. But he never let it go. So his whole life, he's been acting the same

way. And I'm going to push this to Howard really quickly because that's also the dichotomy of Chris Paul, right? Like he is the ultimate competitor guy. But, But the other side of it is he burned out opponents, but he also burned out teammates, right? It'll be the Clippers is a big example of that. His relationship with DeAndre Jordan, his relationship with Blake Griffin, it doesn't seem like a lot of the Clippers for as much success that they had liked each other very much afterwards, right? And a lot of that had to do with, you know, the way Chris demanded everything out of everyone, right? I think that's also a part of his legacy too, right?

Because not only did he burn out relationship with the Clippers, when he went with the Rockets, they had big success, but, you know, his relationship with James Harden took a toll as a result of that, right? And then he goes in a mentor role within OKC and in San Antonio. But there is that earth about Chris Paul. And, you know, a lot of people call him a politician. A lot of people, you know, call him a, you know, a, you know, a very important. very good teacher, but also someone that will get under your skin and kind of make you feel

about it at the end. So like, that's also part of the legacy too, right? It's funny because Raja said dirty, but Raja meant it as a compliment, right? It's not like dirty like this guy's trying to hurt you. It's this guy knows all the little veteran tricks and is going to do everything possible to win. And some of that shit really gets under your skin. And some of it, you know, maybe so it's a little bit borderline dirty, Dane. dangerous too, right? Like, like, he's going to be somebody might get under you a little bit, too, right? So there's, but Roger meant that mostly as a compliment because it speaks to his single-mindedness about winning. And I'll say that about the same thing about a couple other terms. You mentioned

politician, Logan. He definitely was on the court, off the court with teammates, with coaches, with media, with referees, I can tell you. Um, hello, Scott Foster. But that's, that one's off to the side. We'll come back to the referee thing, because I'll there's a story I'll tell. But like, so politician also, and positively, otherwise, he just was and he was good at it. So I mean it mostly is a compliment because it's another thing about his single mindiness. Controlling. Control freak. Again, in a positive way in that I think that's part of what infused his teams with a certain seriousness. Think about that thunder team. Again, I mentioned all the teams that he took to the playoffs and all

years he did not miss the playoffs. When they flipped Chris Paul for Russell Westbrook, that was the end of the Russell Westbrook Paul George era. CP3 goes there and they're supposed to basically be a tear down now. Now, they do have a young Shea, but Shea is not Shea yet. And that team wasn't supposed to do anything. They won 44 games, just like four or five fewer than they'd won with Russ and Paul George the previous season, and made the playoffs. They weren't supposed to because he infuses every team with a certain amount of seriousness because he's so demanding and there's only one way he knows. But it does wear people out.

And that accounts for some of the bouncing around in the last, you know, eight, ten years of his career. Some of that was by his own hand, right? Like he forces his way out of New Orleans because New Orleans is just a perpetual shit show as an organization. So he forces his way out. He wants to go to the Lakers. We have the infamous David Stern, uh,

acting as New Orleans's de facto owner because the league owned the team at that time. Probably the biggest what if of the last 20 years that. In my sliding doors moments, somewhere along the way my sliding doors moments piece from a few weeks ago on the ringer.com. But Chris Paul forces his way out of there. He wants to go to Lakers. He ends up with the Clippers. Lob City happens.

And the Clippers have never thought of the Clippers the same way again since Lobb City. Paul George and Kauai Leonard never go there, I would, I believe, without Blake Griffin and Chris Paul creating Lob City and creating this new image of the Clippers as an actual winning organization, a respectable organization. Shout out to Doc Rivers too for that. So that changes everything, right? And then eventually he wears out the Clippers, the Clippers wear out him, whatever it is. He's the one who opted. That wasn't just the Clippers waking up and trading him to the Rockets. He wanted that. So they traded him to the Rockets. And he and James Hardin, who at the very beginning were like, I don't know, we're friends. This is going to work. great. It doesn't matter where both primary ball handlers and James Hardin is, is like this super ball dominant player. We're friends. You all think this isn't going to work. It's going to work. They spent two seasons together before they got sick of each other. And it's basically Hardin, who wanted Chris Paul traded for Russ. Like, that's how that happened. So like, all right, so that happened. And then eventually, you know, he goes from Oklahoma to Phoenix. He's bounced around a bit. He does work people out along the way. But like, I don't know. I would take that. If that's what

he's going to do for my organization. If I'm the coach, if I'm a teammate, if I'm the owner, I'll take it. I mean, typically when you're trying to strive for a title in any way, Roger, it's basically there's going to have to be some caveats, right? And one of the caveats is you kind of deal with assholes, like, especially if you're going to that level and ascending to that level. Like, you've got to deal with the Chris Paul and the competitiveness, right? Like, that's typically what you have to go through.

I mean look you're going to deal with assholes in professional sport period let me deal with the asshole that is doing it for the reasons that you're talking about doing it for like let me not have to deal with the aloof I don't want to be a part of of the culture singular entity that's just a mega star and we can't get away from it but we're never going to win a championship with it I don't want that asshole give me the one give me the one that ruffles feathers because he does demand so much out of his teammates and wants to win games, it holds everybody accountable for it, even if it's erring on the side of being too much, right? Even if we're just going to be overboard with that eventually, because far too often in locker rooms, it's missing, right? And I would even, you know, I'm not lumping him in the same category, but, like, they're, you know, there's stories and, like,

people tell stories about Kobe being, you know, too relentless for teammates at times, right? MJ. Michael, too, yeah. Michael, yeah, like, like, that's, That's not, and I'm not saying they're the same type of players, clearly, but some of those guys have that level of focus, that level of intensity. And they just demand it. They won it. And, you know, Chris wasn't able to get the championships, but I think most teams, you know, to the point that Howard's been making over and over again, were better for it.

I want to stick with this real quick, Raja, because it was a question I was going to ask what you brought it up right now. When Kobe and Chris Ball have a lot of similarities in terms of their mentality, right? and they were friends and they kind of bonded over that like we're assholes to everybody else but it's it's a it's a positive journey that comes with this right that's what they kind of bonded over both of them with that reputation rubbed teammates the wrong way on the come up right but they also had like this second arc of like mentorship right like Chris Paul with Wimby Chris Paul with Shay Gilgis Alexander why do you think with both of those guys right I mean Kobe didn't bounce around the way CP did, but he tend to have mentorships with the

Devin Bookers and Sam of Chris Paul and some of the other guys that like just hold him in such reverence. My question to you, Raja, what is the difference? Because the mentality doesn't change, but the audience might. What is the difference between that mentality when you're of similar age with a guy like Chris Paul versus when you're like kind of a student of a Chris Paul or a Kobe Bryant? Why do you think that there's so much reverence from the young guys that have dealt with Chris Paul as opposed to the guys that were like his peers.

Yeah, I mean, look, it's just, it's just life, it's ego, it's perspective, it's, it's mortality. Like, it's all of those things thrown into one pot, right? Like, when you are in your prime or ascending towards that prime, there's a level of ego that you walk around with that can be off-putting to other people that see themselves on that same type of quest, right? Like, that's why young stars sometimes don't always work out together because that's a difficult dynamic.

We both want to be a top five player at our positions all time. There's one basketball. There, you know, in a lot of instances, there's a, there's someone who stirs the drink in an organization. And then everyone else, you know, you saw it with the heat when it was LeBron, D. Wade, and Chris Bosch. And it was like, yo, we got this three-headed monster and it doesn't work. And so it has to become like,

Hey, we got the main head of this monster, and then we got two subheads of this monster. It's hard for us all to be equal in that regard. And so I think that player that you're talking about, like that Kobe, that Chris Paul, on the rise, it's kill. You know, it's kill. I want it this way. Hey, we're trying to do this. And that can wear on people. But as that player gets older and isn't threatened, right?

And it's a crazy thing because you've got this ego, like you feel, you know, like you're the best thing in the world. but if we're being honest, what what prevents you from being open in that way at that time is the perceived threat from the guy across the locker room in some instances to your, you know, position, right? But as you get older and you've accomplished and you're not threatened in the same way, you see the end, right? Now we're talking mortality and you see it. And so there's a relaxation that comes into play, right?

And if not everyone can do it, but, you know, I think you saw, Kobe doing it, especially post career, right? The threat wasn't there anymore. So he'd let a lot of people in. A lot of people that, you know, have benefited tremendously from, you know, the insight. But Chris Paul is able to do that because, you know, you understand. And you think that that's the natural evolution, but like not everyone can evolve quickly enough to do that while they're still in a locker room.

We always talk about you not knowing as the player. You're the last person to know that that time in your world has. past. Well, when you get to it and you can realize that as a player, then you get to the point we're talking about, Logan, where you can be more of a mentor because you understand that this isn't your team anymore, right? Like, you are now helping support someone else and in some instances teaching them, you know, how to be the guy, maybe even preparing them better than you were prepared because you can share the successes and the failures that you experienced as, as that guy. Yeah. Well said, we'll set, Rosa. Good shit, buddy.

Thanks, Mike. Howard, I want to get, we talked about the sliding doors moment with the Lakers, and that's going to be one of the things. I don't only define Chris Paul, but the league itself, right, in that time period in time. Let's say the trade does happen. What does that do for Chris Paul's career? What does it do for the Lakers? What does it do for the league at that point?

There's some really fun sliding doors moments for Chris Paul. It dolls me for a second while I hit a couple hours, and I'll come back to the vetoed So he's drafted in 2005 with the fourth pick of the draft. Can you guys even remember the three guys taken ahead of him? Which draft was this? Darren Williams. Darren Williams was just ahead of him at third going to Utah. 2005.

Shit. Well, sweet. That draft. Carlos Boosers, no, Boosier wasn't it. Was it Chris Paul? I mean, was it LeBron? No. Ocafore was 04, right?

Ocoffre was 04 draft. Not 05. I don't know. I don't know. So the number one pick of the draft, NBA champion, Andrew Bogot. Damn right. That was a Bogot draft. To the Milwaukee Bucks.

Followed by Marvin Williams to the Atlanta Hawks. Damn right. And then Darren Williams and Chris Paul and then Raymond Felton. Interesting thing in that draft at the time, Darren Williams, Chris Paul, Raymond Felton, people were like, these three guys are all absolute stud point guards and the three teams that get them are all going to be great because... Two of them was right. Yeah, but they were tied together. Those three were tied together.

And then Raymond Felton, once they get to the league, is clearly behind these guys. But for the longest time, for several years at least, Darren Williams and Chris Paul were considered like rivals and peers. Sports Illustrated, the great Jack McCallum had a great piece people should go look up where it was talking about this rivalry. At that time, there was a debate about who was the better player. That was a thing for a while. I was team Darren as a kid. I was like, oh, Darren's bigger, he's taller. He could play above the rim.

he's the one. He's more of a pure score. Yeah. So the first what if is just simply that obviously a redraft, Chris Paul is going ahead of all those guys. In which case, Chris Paul starting his career in Milwaukee. So that's interesting. But he gets drafted by the Hornets at four,

the New Orleans Hornets, who had recently moved, relocated from Charlotte. As people can also see in my sliding doors piece from a few weeks back, the Hornets should have never been allowed to leave Charlotte the first time. George Shin had poisoned the market because of his own misdeeds off the court,

sexual harassment and all kinds of stuff. And the Hornets, the city turned against them. The league should have never allowed. They should have forced them to sell and stay. But they end up moving to New Orleans. Why do I bring this up? Because if Chris Paul had started his career with the Charlotte Hornets, instead of the New Orleans Hornets,

Chris Paul's from North Carolina. Would he have stayed longer? Would that franchise have done better? because New Orleans has been a tough market. Maybe there's more stability. Maybe he doesn't force his way to L.A. in the first place. So there's that. So that all brings us forward to 2011.

He wants out. He wants to go to L.A. And he wants to go to Lakers. And he and Kobe want to play together. But because George Shin, that same horrible owner who poisoned the Charlotte market with all his misdeeds, can't afford to own the team anymore. The other 29 owners buy him out. Now, David Stern is the de facto owner.

and everything has to go through him, including a Chris Paul trade that had already been agreed to by New Orleans and Houston and the Lakers. And David Stern vetoes it. And people always think, oh, the Stern veto, the commissioner veto. No, the league did not veto this. Stern did not commission as commissioner veto it.

He did it as the overseer of a franchise that had no owner that was owned by the other 29 teams. A huge mistake. They never should have gone down this path in the first place, but they couldn't find anybody to buy. the team. A really strange thing to think about now when teams are like fucking flying off the shelves for eight and ten billion dollars. So that's three years after the recession, you know, like money was different, the economy was different than. It was it was tough. And nobody, so they just

couldn't find an owner. So all these mistakes lead to this, this now infamous veto. But yeah, Kobe and Chris Paul together. First of all, we just talked about like Kobe's a pain of the ass. Chris Paul's a pain in the ass. Again, I've made this in the complimentary way. Can you imagine those two guys together, like, that would not have lasted very long. They would have, and they still had enough assets. It would have been like a shooting star, dude. That would have been like bright and pretty to watch for a minute and then it's gone. They still had enough asses to get Dwight too after that too.

So like that would have been. Yeah. I mean, if they figured it out, those guys would have been killers together. But I don't know how long that really would have lasted. But it was Kobe's last shot at getting the kind of help he needed too, right? Like they had gone to back-to-back finals in 09 and 10. They lose one. They win one.

Kobe gets his fifth ring. And then they have that awful implosion against the Mavericks. And the Lakers are never the same. And Kobe's final years are spent on pretty, you know, math teams. But if he'd gotten Chris Paul, that would have revived him. So there's a huge what if there. But before I forget this one last thing, I know I've been rambling for a bit. The other thing, too, I want to be.

to hear Raja perspective on this. Like, Chris Paul strikes me as like one of the last, if not the last true point guards. Like, Bill and Zach talked about this yesterday on Zach's pot about maybe Darius Garland being kind of the torch carrier now. But like, think about the guys whose careers Chris Paul overlapped with and the era that he was mostly associated with. Russell Westbrook, heliocentric big time score, James Hardin, heliocentric big time score, guys who are going to dominate the shit out of the ball, score a ton of points. And Chris Paul, if you look at his efficiency over his career, like Steve Nash, Chris Paul has a shockingly, not low, but just modest points per game average.

He's at like 16.9 for his career. Chris Paul absolutely could have averaged 20 plus every season of his career. He only did it, I think, twice because he was a guy who wanted to run the show and set up everybody else and I'll bring us home at the end if I got to. And he can shoot the three and he's got the great mid-range game, but he did not need to dominate the ball as a score or even as a ball hand. Well, me a little bit as a ball handler, but like he was going to do it to make the pass that led to the shot. But he was that old school kind of point guard. And we just don't have that many of those anymore. He's one of only three players in this century since 2000 with over 10,000 assists.

12,545. The next is LeBron at 116 and then Russ at 10,000. But it's like Chris Paul was there to make the pass. He was there to run the offense and we don't have a lot of that anymore. Yeah.

When you say point guard, my basketball soul wants to see a point guard like Chris Paul, like Steve Nash. That's what my basketball soul. The way I was brought up, like that's pretty to me like I like to watch guys that just can set a table their number one

stat is their ability to distribute the ball and get people better like and help teammates be better I just and maybe I see it that way because I was always the beneficiary and I wasn't able to like create the way that I would need to create for myself so I needed that assistance like it could be a selfish thing but that's just what I like to see that that's that's pretty much gone it's it's gone and you know I often will use my sons as an example because that's the world I'm living in but as we go around to colleges now and I'm my young tie is kind of a combo trying to make him a point guard he's got point guard tendencies he really can do that like he he he really sees the floor really well the number one thing most of these teams say to him is like we need

point guards who can score the ball we need guards that can score the ball. And so that doesn't mean you don't do the other things, but that is the way this game has evolved. And I've talked to Steve about it. We, you know, he'll tell you that if he could redo it, he'd score it again. I'd be interested, he'd score it more, shoot it more. I'd be interested to hear if Chris given the opportunity and asked, would give the same response because of the pressure that it applies. And then, you know, even, I think defensively, we had it a little backwards too, not to go off on a tangent, right? Like, the spurs and the Mavs would tend to get it right with our sons' teams, right?

Like, Steve didn't want to score it so much, make him score it. Because if you, if you, as a PG, threaten the rim, then I've got to guard that and honor that if you can do it well. That'll open up those passes that you ultimately want to make. But if you're not a threat, like this is where people were making this, like defensively making the mistakes. Like, they don't want to shoot it. Let them go in there and shoot it.

Well, you collapse every time he gets an advantage and you're opening those plays up for them, right? Like, now teams are more aware they play that better if you get a non-shooting PG. They just won't honor it. Like, you get any non-shooting player now, right? They just don't honor it. So, like, it would just be interested.

Sorry to go off on a little tangent, but it would be interested to hear if Chris Paul would design his game differently given the opportunity today and plug it back in in those days. But like I thought it was, when you talk about point guards, man, those dudes that could come down, set a table, move the pieces around the board, you know, be three steps ahead of every, every rotation. Like, those, that's pretty to me. To wrap this up really quickly, to wrap up this segment, you know, when I see Chris Paul, I think of the spiritual successor of John Stockton, right? Like the guy, we talked to reference, do anything to win is the most pure point guard. Like there's a lot of people

like I was, we referenced a couple of pods ago when I watched San Antonio versus Chicago and I see all these point guards of San Antonio have and they're not trying to reorganize the offense. They're just trying to shoot down the stretch, right? Whereas like a John Stockton or Chris Paul will kind of like hold the fort down. I got this.

Let's reorganize and let's get this done. We don't have that. But I see that with Chris Paul as someone that does that. And has the assist, has everything. It leads to this question. And I'll start with Howard and with Raja to end this segment. When it's all said it done, what is Chris Paul's legacy to this game in 20, and it's 21 years of playing? I'll go back to the first thing I said that he's just an absolute flat out winner. And it does not have to involve a championship to say that. Will that taint

that though? Because I do feel like, yes, he is a winner. He is a winner. But he did, it wasn't like it was like he was ever had the opportunity to overcome that it felt like he won always to a point right and that's i feel like that's a part of that's always going to be a part of his legacy too right he did win but he always he was the one that made the mistakes to lose those games or his body didn't or his body didn't hold up like in 2018 and 2019 some of it i mean look yeah the body like he he had some really untimely injuries in his career right in houston and i think there was a year in in L.A., too, with the clippers, right? Hamstring in 2015.

Yeah. Right. And he still ended up making, like, a huge game winning shot in that series, right? If I'm remembering. Yeah, they got through it, but they lost in the second round. Yeah. So he's like, noted, Logan, like, I, like, the facts of the facts, I can't dispute that. But what I'll say is, because he's the consummate point guard, like, you know, a John Stockton

or, like, you know, magic on some level, magic obviously much bigger. but like there was only so much that that Chris Paul was going to be able to do and he made some mistakes and he had some injuries yes but like you know everybody needs a co-star and like okay he had Blake Griffin he had James Harden in the in his best years in the years when he had the best chance to go far those early New Orleans years where he's getting that team to the playoffs we're talking like David West and like you know like a whole cast of characters that were like good but not like, you know, superstars. So it's like you can't put too much on him there.

We can tick off all the mistakes he made, especially at the end of one of those games against the Grizzlies. And the 3-1 lead, losing the 3-1 lead too. I mean, that's on his record. But that's not the totality of a career. And it's also like you have teammates. There are other people who could have done stuff too. I can't put that all on him just because he's the most decorated player among them.

He's still a six-foot at best point guard, right? I just, I'm not going to over-emphasize that stuff. To me, it's still about he was very rarely on a team that didn't matter or a team that had more losses than wins or a team that didn't make the playoffs. And the mentorship and the teams that he elevated, especially unexpected. Nobody thought that that Thunder team was going to do anything when he got traded there. He gets them to the playoffs. Nobody thought the sons were going to be anything more than like, oh, they'll be a nice team,

you know, a playoff team now finally. And he takes them all the way to the NBA finals. And by the way, where have they been since Chris Paul left Phoenix? So, you know, like, that's the part of his legacy that speaks the loudest to me is that every team he's part of matters as long as he was in his prime and even into his late prime. So, you know, to me, that's it. Also, that and the fact that, like, again, he's stuck to his guns. I'm a point guard. I don't care what, Russell Westbrook or James Hardin or Derek Rose.

or anybody else who were like these heliocentric, 35% usage guys are doing. I'm going to sit here in my low 20s usage rate with my 17, 18 point per game average, dishing out 10, 12, 13, 15 assists and running the team and when he could playing all defensive, all league defensive play. Like, he gave everything.

And, you know, in the end, like, what more could you ask for from an all-time great? Roger. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm not, you guys better with, you guys are writers by trade. I don't know what it's fucking like he is. I don't know. Here's what I do know. Outside of his own brilliant career and all the things that we just talked about, I used to see him frequently on the youth circuit where I believe his family, his brothers ran CP3.

they may still call themselves that. They may call themselves something else. It could be Carolina Stars. Now, I don't know, but that was his program for the longest as my boys were coming up. And we would see them at tournaments. They always provided a great platform. They raised a stable of great players that I'm sure are all out there doing fantastic things right now. You probably see some of them scattered across the landscape of the NBA.

And he was present. I remember we went to the John Lucas tournament in Houston one year, and we played his team. it was our first time on like the major scene we thought we were really good and boy we play his team my kids got scared deer deer in headlights just completely shut down um got spanked pretty good and we were we were pretty upset like as an organization everybody was down we had to come back the next day um and try to figure out how to continue to win our way back into this tournament and chris found our team um and saw me there with them and spent some time with them

talking to them about what was important, what the bigger picture was as it related to us being out there at this age playing basketball and learning how to compete and getting a foundation in the right way. And I just thought that was really, really cool. And it meant a lot to my kids at the time. I don't know how many different kids or teams he did that for. But I know he probably certainly did it over and over again for the kids in his organization. So, you know, his footprint and his legacy are bigger than what he wound up doing in the

NBA because he gave back in that way tremendously. I mean, it's funny. You talk about, every time you talk to Chris Paul, and I got the chance to really talk to him a lot, you know, while he was in the Bay Area, he would always, like, beam that, oh, yeah, that dude was in my camp. Oh, yeah, I'd know that dude for a long time. Jordan Poole, yeah, he was in my camp. Like, I know him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the homie. He was, to Howard's politician, um, uh, stance. He's always talking about who he knows and how long he's known them, right? Yeah, his camps are crazy. My bad to interrupt you. I forgot all about his camps, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like he was always talking about like, yeah,

that's beaming with pride the people that were coming through his camps and his AAU circuit. Like, I've been seeing, I've been seeing that dude since he was 13. I've been seeing that person since he was eight. That was always something that he had a point of pride with. Chris Paul, man, one of the greats. I'm taking a quick break. And we're going to be talking about beef. The Ringer NBA show was brought to you by Fanduel.

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Need that last minute gift or holiday essential. It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. And we are back. I want to talk about Clay versus Jaya Morant. This is one of the segments that is just made for Raja Bell, okay? Just made to get his commentary. So, you know, the Mavericks are playing the Memphis Grizzlies.

And down the stretch of that game, Clay gets into it with Jai. Clay was on one the entire game. He had one of his best games of the year. And he was like sticking up for Cooper flag, getting in the face of like Memphis Biggs. He was just on one. Everybody was like, who is this Clay? And I'm like, Clay, this has always been Clay, Thompson, and I know.

He's always about that action. But he gets into it with Ja. Jha calls him a bum and points in his face. And Clay was like, hold on. Got be fucked up. And gets into it. And then they ask him about Clay about this. afterwards, and these are his quotes.

With Ja, he's a funny guy. He has a lot to say all the time, especially for a guy who rarely takes accountability. But you know what? That's for another day. And then they asked, well, what did you guys say? Right?

As Clay clearly does the thing that a player does when they say, they don't want to talk about it, but they actually want to talk about it. So they ask him, what did you guys say? And he goes, nothing of intelligent depth, just running his mouth. He's been running his mouth for a long time. And it's funny to run. your mouth when you're on the bench.

It's kind of the story of his career so far. Just leave us wanting more. You know, we all want to see him out there and do his best, and he's just been letting a lot of other stuff get in the way of that. We need that in the NBA. We need our best players to be out there. When you're a star, it comes with great responsibility, and I hate to see that go to waste.

Roger, did Clay just basically say everything that every other player and every other person in the league has been saying on the low? Yeah, he, he very it was really it was really a fun watch for me because it was really calm really he's clearly better than me because i would have been hot like trying to explain that and it would have lost all of its depth and meaning because i would have been yelling it and so he just really eloquently and calmly just gutted job marint um and i think a lot of the points he made hit squarely on the nail's head like it's just fat some of that's just factual right um i appreciated

the way he handled that um we can get into whether or not you know guys that aren't in the game should be out there in that level of beef with guys that are in the game like i don't think i had any of those ever where somebody that wasn't out on the court and i were getting into it like that um but i appreciated the way clay went about it i don't have much more than that i thought it was I thought it was, I thought it was awesome. And kudos to him, dude, for being able to just take a breath and calmly kind of articulate that. I thought it was dope. It was a very clay delivery, right?

We're just so very matter of fact. And then when you hear the actual words, you're like, oh, oh, oh, damn. He hit him on every level. Raja, I'm curious about this part too, though. All right. So Jaws on the bench, in street clothes. Not a great position to be in, to be lobbing those grenades. Let's say he was actually playing, though.

Even still, John Morant has won, I think, a playoff series, and Clay Thompson has won multiple championships as a key member of that, of a dynasty, as one part of the greatest shooting back court of all time. Clay is going to the Hall of Fame. John Morant would be lucky to go to the second round at this point. Should a player in Jaws position be calling out Clay in the first place?

Is there any sense of, like, hierarchy or just respect for your elders or your more decorated, uh, peers in the league. Like, does any of that matter? Um, yeah, it's, it should, it should. I mean, look, I mean, yeah, it should, but, but it's not surprising the job would miss on that, right? Like, it's not, I mean, that's kind of kind of, also kind of course, but yeah. I'm just wondering if that's a, if that's a legit premise to, well, here, here's where, We often do this on the pod, right? Like, because sometimes we'll get into like the lamello ball of it all.

And what happens is there's a difference in an opinion of what matters to media and fans and then hoopers. Sure. There's a difference, right? Because like we'll argue like lamellos and I'll argue how how crazy it is some of the things he can do as a player and that he's a really good player. And then the other argument is that, oh, it's low usage rate, it's all of that. that's true right and it doesn't lead to winning but like john moran's probably looking at it from a purely hooper's lens which is i'm a better and more a more versatile player with the ball in my hands i can fucking dunk like i you know i mean like he he he's got a bag a pure hoop standpoint and a lot

of times as hoopers when it comes right down to like yo i'm better than you that's the way they're looking at it it's not about like hey you're more accomplished than me and you meant that much to those Golden State teams. It's like, yo, dog, like, and if,

if, if we're being honest, like, you know, Clay is a phenomenal player. J, jaw, as a, at the highest level of jaw,

it's probably more like, like, box office, right? Like, probably more marquee. So, so I think that's the lens

that he's coming at it through. And, and that's where the disconnect comes sometimes. But I agree with you, Howard. Like, hey, bro. I,

I don't think, It's a good move for you to be out there, even if you're out there playing, disrespecting someone like Clay, who's a phenomenal player. But there is a difference in the way we look at it and the way like when you get into a heated argument as a hooper or as a competitor,

you're not looking at it through that big picture. You're just looking at, hey, bro, I'm better than you at this. Yeah, no, it's, you tend to see, you tend to see a lot in a player based on how they react in that moment. And it's not like you're not supposed to talk shit, right? Like, everyone talks shit on a basketball court, right? But, like, it's the J. Morant types of players that don't necessarily, like, have reverence with

their talking shit that tend to be in these types of positions that have, like, there was, like, there was no self-awareness from Jai. I mean, obviously, Jha has never really, that's not, that's not a high mark on his 2K rating and his self-awareness. But, so it's not really unexpected, but you do see these from, these types of players who are supremely talented but don't really have like the reverence of the game before them you typically see that like i'm on a little yadi rabbit hole right now and like he's kind of the same right none of you guys really know who little yadi is fun this is more

for the younger real ones it's fine but like doesn't really have any much reverence for like the musicians and the gods in his genre before him right and you typically see that correlate with either success or you see it or just not really knowing when to you know when to calm down and chill out when it comes to these types of things and i see that with ja and like one of the other things that clay said was you know i have a lot of reverence for the minfrey grisly's organization but the grit and grind one this that that was a team that really uh you know you had to have your lunch pale when you played against that team. This current iteration of the Grizzlies is all talk.

And another, that was another talking point that me and Roger have said throughout the years on this podcast, which is the Grizzlies talk a lot of shit. And they say the West is going to be okay in our hands, but they never proved anything. And Clay had a front row seat to that because he beat them in the playoffs. John Morant has never beaten. He's only been one team in the playoffs, but he sure has. never beaten Clay Thompson. And so, like, you just see the lack of self-awareness there.

And I don't know what this is going to be. And I want to get Howard's perspective on this. I don't know what this means for the future of, like, John Morant and the league and all of those things. But it definitely put another black eye onto his reputation as he's probably going to try to get traded. Maybe to the Kings. But, like, I don't, I think we're, Clay just put the writing on the wall

on everything that everyone has been saying behind the scenes. And I got to think that this affects even more of his reputation, especially that he said all that shit from the bench. Like he was injured in that game. I don't even though if he's played since. Like, he talks a lot of stuff and he never plays. On the halftime show, I think it was half-time. I think it was half-time.

I was post-game Amazon Prime a week or so ago. They were talking in studio about most underrated skill to have in the NBA. and Blake Griffin, the first thing he said was a phrase you just used, self-awareness. Like, Blake, and I don't think it was a, I don't think it was a job discussion. I think they were just talking generally. I can't remember for sure the context, but the game they were playing was like, what's the most underrated skill? Self-awareness. And, like, that's a huge thing, right?

And, like, that's the thing, no matter how talented you are in this league, no matter what your skill set level is, and no matter where your ceiling is, you have to be aware of what your your situation is, right? If you're, you know, just a great role player, at some point, you've got to just come to terms of the fact that in this league, I'm only a role player, right? If you're a superstar, the self-awareness is the responsibility that comes with it, which is why Clay's remarks were so cutting, but also so accurate, because he used, it comes with great responsibility, Clay said. And he's talking about Jha rarely takes accountability. Like, these are the self-awareness pieces that are missing. He was just fucking

But it was just fucking It was so weird But we're But Rajah you're wincing We're all wincing Because it's right Absolutely We all sit there and we go like

Yeah we love watching the dude But like these are what's holding These are the issues And the the Character glitches Or for lack of a better term They're kind of holding him back This is what's keeping from being

What was what we once thought Was gonna be a face of the lead And the injuries are a big part of it too But he also missed a lot of games Because of suspensions for very preventable things. And he's never really come to terms with all of that. He got, you know, let off the hook multiple times.

He got suspended, but like, I don't want to get into details. But he also got that off the hook. Like he's not really had to. Not even just from the league standpoint, but like even a rollout after that, right, where he has like the sham interview and like no one really took real accountability. He apparently talked to Adam Silver. I bet even after this, back to you, Howard, I bet even after this Clay thing, he was just like,

Clay Buggins, fuck him. Like I can guarantee that was probably a version of what he said when he saw the clip. Oh, nothing. Sorry, Howard. I mean, but I almost guarantee you that nothing that came out of Clay's mouth hit him at home. No. Like none of that. None of there was no self-reflection upon hearing any of that.

If you're the Grizzlies as a franchise front office and ownership of everything else, what you're hoping for, what you're wishing against, you know, hoping against all hope is that he would take that to heart that he would say like, oh, maybe I should reflect on my responsibility and accountability. Nah, they just hate him. Well, that's the problem. In like today's MBA and just like today's world in general, like any criticism you can just deflect by say, well, they're just haters and there's hating. And it's like, it's no, like, sometimes the criticism is legit and you should like think about it and try to evolve. The problem with John in the last several years is that no matter what has happened on or off the court, it doesn't look like he is prepared to evolve or even is aware that he needs to as a player

and as a person. But that's still possible, right? I think we talked about this recently on the pod or maybe I talked about it somewhere. I always hold out hope that young guys in this league can figure it out at some point. Like nobody is, the book is not closed on anybody. Maybe Jai will figure it out at some point. Maybe it'll take a trade for that to happen. Maybe it'll take some other thing to kind of shake him up.

But no, Roger said it best. Like, no, I don't think he's probably taking anything that Clay said to heart. he's probably just being like, yeah, fuck that old dude. I'll bust his ass on the court next time I play if I'm ever healthy again. But, you know, it doesn't stop. It doesn't change the fact that Clay is, is a made man in the NBA and is a future Hall of Famer with four rings. And Jha is not. And, you know, at some point, the Grizzlies are going to have to figure out, are they really moving forward with John Morant or not? And I know he's box office. I know he's popular in the community. But I, you know, We discussed this.

Hey, man. Hey, Lauren Hill is boxed office, but I don't never see her, you know? You know? That was a deep cover. I feel me. But like, that's the same thing. It's the same deal.

Occasionally I'll feel bad for like the Grizzlies or even the NBA, right? And then I remember this interaction I had at a water park in Long Island like two years ago. And I was out there and this kid was berating his dad. I mean, I was a. appalled. It gathered, an audience gathered to watch this little dude. It was some of the wildest stuff I've seen. And I, I remember feeling I was really upset about it, right? And I felt terrible for the dad initially because I was like, bro, this is so embarrassing. This kid is just. And as I walked back to tell the story to my wife, I lost the feeling of

sorryness for the dad because you raised that little mofo. You let him do that shit. The only way he feels comfortable doing that to you out in public is because what you'd allow his little ass to do through however many years you raised him. And that's the way I feel about the Grizzlies and the NBA. So like when I start feeling sorry for them, I reflect to that. And I talk myself right out of feeling sorry for him.

Yeah. Yeah, been a bad dad. Roger, what did you think of the dare queen? situation. Did he disrespect the basketball gods or not? Yeah, I don't know, man. This is a tough one, man. Like, should I set this, should we set this up real quick for people who didn't see? Yeah, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Over the weekend, Hawks are up 115 to 96 with less than 15 seconds left. The game is over. Vee-Creechee, I think I'm pronouncing it correctly, is dribbling out the ball near the sideline, facing away from the basket. Typical,

end of the game, it's over, it's a blowout. We're doing the respectful thing by just running down the clock. Derek Queen sneaks it from behind, steals the ball, sprints for a dunk, the Hawks are pissed, Creechee is pissed, there's a minor kerfuffle after the buzzer. So that's the situation. Here's, I don't know. Here's the thing, man. I say just play basketball to the end, right? Because, you know, Derek Queen and company, you know, while that's a bad look and you went and stole the ball. You know, there is still time on the clock. And for anybody on that side of it saying,

oh, he's just playing through the, how would you have felt had, what's buddy's name with the ball, Howard? Vee-Vee-Creechee. Up 20-some points, drove down the lane in 360. You'd have had a fit. Everyone would have lost their mind. You would have said that he disrespected the game by doing that

because he's rubbing your face and the fact that you're getting beat by 25. Why would he go in there and dunk that ball? I don't really know how I feel about it. I think it all gets taken care of if you just play until the damn buzzer goes off. But if he's playing to the buzzer goes off, doesn't that mean that the Hawks might be scoring again and running it up when you're not supposed to do that? No, but like if you're competing, like the only reason it's tacky at that point is because the one team has stopped defending, right?

Like we're in this world of like, hey, hey, you're not going to defend anymore. Guys, we're not defending. You don't go score the ball again, all shit, he went and scored it. Now we got a problem. Well, now it's like the opposite of like, hey, bro, you know, we know you're not going to score the ball. You're just going to stand there and hold it. So I'm going to sneak in behind you and go get stealing dunk it.

Now we got a problem. I'm saying, just play regular basketball. But the Hawks are doing the respectful thing by just running out the clock. So the respectful thing is to honor that they're being respectful to you and not steal the ball. What I'm saying, I get, listen, I've lived it. I got the nuance of like what we're supposed to do in that situation, the etiquette of it. I don't love any of them. it. Just hoop.

If you just hoop, then, then, and we accept just hooping as the protocol, win-loser draw, up 20, down 20, whatever. If we're just going to hoop until the last whistle or buzzer goes off, we're not going to be in our feelings about what transpires in those last 10 seconds. Do you know why? Because ain't no unwritten fucking rules. We're just hooping. Also, the other thing, no, Roger, like, he did that. They were still down 20. Like, they still got the ass whoop. They still the pelicans, you know, The basketball guys will still take care of that no matter what, right?

Like it doesn't, it's, they lost. They got their ass with. Well, that's the thing. It was tacky. It was tacky. I'm not going to front. Like, it was tacky as hell. When you're accustomed to the league and the protocols and, like, how you're supposed

to comport yourself at the end of the game, that show was tacky. But like, yeah, it was tacky. But I'm saying, I just like people to hoop, bro. Like, like, I think it just sorts it out and takes the gray area out of it. Just play ball. Don't be offended if, if they go in and scorn. score on you or if they're up 25. What, now to up 27, Mofo, why you care? It's funny

on YouTube, somebody put the replay up, but back to back from the two broadcasts, and it's first, the Hawks broadcast, where they're like, that's terrible, that's whatever, this immature he's going to learn, da-da-da-da-da-da. And then they finish that, and then it flips to

the Pelicans broadcast, and Antonio Daniels is like, you know, exactly what Roger just said, you got to play to the end. They always say, play to the end, whatever, so like the Pelicans broadcast. is like it was perfectly fine. It's great. You got to play to the end.

The Hawks broadcast is like, it's the end of the world. What are these kids doing? That was funny. And I want to make clear, though. I'm not saying, like, I support what he did and, and, and think that, like, like, you know, that is tacky. I am acknowledging that.

All I'm saying is I want everyone to play to the end. I'm not saying, like, it's okay that he did that because he's playing to the end. I'm saying if you just hoop and we just hoop until the last buzzer goes. off, then we don't have to worry about anybody in there being in their feelings about any of that bullshit, because we'll just be hooping. By the way, fun player, Derek Queen. He's been really fun. Overall.

He's a hooping. And the hawks have been hooping. They've been hooping. And the heat. And the heat. And the and the heat. And the Raptors. And the Raptors. And the Detroit Pistons.

Shout out, shout out, Messiah. Shout out Messiah, shout out, Missai, Jiri. Ooh. And that has been another edition of Real Ones where the basketball gods are always smiling on us. I am Logan Murdoch. Well done. That is Howard motherfucking Beck. And that is Roger Bell.

Happy Thanksgiving to everybody, man. Chill with you and your loved ones. No show on Friday. We'll see you guys next Tuesday. Tap in, all the shits. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas star casino, who are 18 and older and present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming.

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