The Ringer NBA Show - Crazy Clippers Comeback, Sixers Force Game 7 and What Does The Kemba Trade Mean? | The Answer

Episode Date: June 19, 2021

Chris is joined by J. Kyle Mann to talk about the Clippers' comeback against the Jazz (1:00) and the Sixers forcing a game 7 against the Hawks (14:07). Then they discuss the Kemba Walker trade and what it means (48:17). Hosts: Chris Ryan and J. Kyle Mann Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What if the Len Bias story hosted by Jordan Ritter-Con is the ringer's latest narrative podcast. You can find new episodes every Wednesday on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. Here's a quick trailer. You've heard his name, Lynn Bias, 1980s phenom, second pick in the NBA draft. And then, cocaine, tragedy, one of the most shocking deaths in sports history. 35 years later, Bias' legacy is still making an impact. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, this is What If, the Lynn Bias story. I'm Jordan Ritter-Con.

Hello and welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Ryan. I am joined by Kyle Mann. If you want to make God laugh, make a content plan on a Friday night in the NBA playoffs. Kyle and I have already recorded a big chunk of Sixers talk, a big chunk of Kemble Walker talk. As we were recording the Sixers talk, I was like, look, the Jazz are up 25. Clippers are making a business. decision playing for game seven, I guess. And what do you know? Terrence Mann from Florida State

University, the boat rocker, leads an incredible comeback for the Los Angeles Clippers who are going to the Western Conference Finals for the first time in their history. Ty Lou leads the Clippers to the Western Conference Finals where they will face the Phoenix Suns. They knock off the number one seed, the Utah Jazz, arguably the best all-around team in basketball this season. Kyle, I don't even know where to start. Is this a bigger win for the Clippers or a shocking loss for the Jazz? Let's start there. Well, you know, justice for Keith Klaus, justice for Eric Piatowski, justice for Michael

Olo Kandi. This is a big night. I honestly can't believe the Clippers are going to be in the West. Shout out Darius. Shout out Barron. Shout out Quentin. Yes. Shout out.

Wait, I'm trying to think. Was Terry DeHear on the Clippers? I was trying to think of the most random clippers. Spiritually, he is a clipper. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of things at play here for the jazz, obviously. You know, Donovan was hampered throughout this. It definitely seemed to slow down the flow of their sort of weak side creation.

The ball didn't get moving as fluidly from what I saw. And I kind of feel like Donovan forced it a bit down the stretch. Did you kind of get that vibe too? Yeah, I think that as the clipper started to run away with it, and as the crowd got louder and, you know, it started to start. of creeping towards double-digit lead. You know, Mitchell, whether it was because they were trying to shoot their way back into it from beyond the arc or whether or not he was tired of hitting the deck from driving to the

rim, it just seemed like him and Conley were both looking for that top at the key shot a little bit. Early in the shot clock, instead of working the ball around and trying to get that open three that's been the sort of the manna for the jazz all season. They're just like they're a three-point shooting team. And Ty Lou ran out five out, man. He ran Terrence Mann, Patrick Beverly, Nick Petun, Paul George, and an absolutely resplendent Reggie Jackson. And I don't think that the Jazz had the counter because they kept Gobert on the floor as you would since he is supposed to be this defense of God.

And when he's being forced to close out guys in the corner, obviously it's just an unsolvable math proposition. And playoff basketball strikes again, like it's adjustments, it's how you change your team on the fly. it's Ty Lou with like an absolutely merciless rotation trigger finger like just putting guys in and out figuring out when a dude is about to have a miracle game and when a dude needs to take a seat and they do it without Kauai Leonard and the amazing thing about it was like obviously Paul George playoff P is is behind him now to some extent pandemic P is behind him I know I know I mean he still has to you know he still has to face mackale bridges but you have to say like Paul George actually in a weirdly that same slot that he wants to be in that second slide, that beta slot, because Terrence Mann

turned into Pete Marevich tonight. Yeah, pretty unbelievable, the Boat Rocker Terrence man. I mean, that's, I looked it up. He's only scored over 20 points three times this season. It just, it's a matter of we do talk about over the course of this podcast about like old narratives resurfacing. Sorry, Utah. This one's, whether, whether, whether, whether, Donovan had been full strength or not, this was going to pop up and be an issue. It's like whenever whenever 5-0 came for the jazz, this became, I'm going to start calling it that, 5-out, 5-0. Yeah, whenever they came for the jazz, it just changed the complexion of the series with or without Kauai. Just an odd tapestry of players. It's really rag-tag. I mean, they did this

without, we all kind of expected Sir Jabaka to be the big boy center to come shore up some of their issues. And it didn't even up being a, it's just playoff basketball, just really, really amazing how quickly things can change dramatically. It's a moving target from a content perspective, as you said. But, you know, without surge, without Kauai, you've got to revitalize Reggie Jackson, you've got Nicholas Batum, who at times early in the season looked like a, looked like a corpse. He looked like a cardboard cutout on like an office chair rolling around out there. And then Paul George, who had a good year. I mean, like, I think Paul George really expanded and demonstrated his playmaking chops and grew in that sense.

When Paul George is going, man, I was telling somebody this the other day, he looks like one of the best players on the planet. I mean, like, he's so fluid. He's everything you want from a modern NBA player. He's huge, and he can shoot, and he's just, he's so smooth. It's just these things have sort of haunted him. he's in a position I mean do we think what percentage

what percentage chance do you think that the clippers have to go the distance here I mean I guess we have to take it one step of the time I mean yeah I mean look this is this is a team first of all that obviously doesn't know when to quit because they've they've won they won four straight in this series

there were times during the Dallas series where they looked absolutely catatonic so I'm definitely not counting them out against the suns especially if we don't really know what the deal is with CP3 missing possibly the beginning of the Western Conference finals if the health and safety protocols

limit his ability to engage with basketball activities. I have no idea where that story is at. The Kauai News was all pointing in the wrong direction. I don't know whether or not that's if we ever got like an official diagnosis like what the MRI scan said on his knee. Did we see

that yet? It was just out for this series is what they said. I'd heard ACL sprain. which, I mean, once your ACL is spring. You're the knee doctor. Tell me if you get an ACL spring. I would assume you just go ahead and cut it like a ribbon at that point. Just give me a new one. That's what I would say.

Can we just skip it? I don't know. I just, something that they have with like lineup versatility with like, whenever you have a roster full of like rangy wings who can shoot dribble pass, you're afforded flexibility in times of crisis like this. So going forward, it's an interesting sort of thread for them where Phoenix,

what do you game plan for for Phoenix? I mean, you know what Paul George is going to throw at you, but they're just sort of this evolving organic thing, and it's going to be, I still think that Phoenix is a really good team and it's going to be a really tough challenge for the Clippers. And I think they're just, they do what they do so well. I think they can beat you in a bunch of different ways, whereas the jazz, I think over the course of this series,

maybe not over the course of the regular season, but at least over the course of this series, seemed to be like if you take away some of their ability to shoot the three, if you stay with them out on the line like that, you're just going to give them a lot of problems. And then as soon as the clippers seem to turn Gobert into a liability,

it didn't look like a one-seat play in a four-seat. It seemed like the clippers were the higher. You know what I mean? Like it seemed like the jazz almost took on this feel of an underdog and not in a good way, not in the rocky way. yeah you kind of felt like you were viewing like uh to the reference loki a really good show you felt like you were just viewing this nexus moment where i don't know i felt kind of sad whenever like terence man

had like canned like that fourth three he canned several in a row and like gobert was just sort of trotting back i was like i just feel like we're witnessing the death of like an argument here like i don't know it just felt significant we have this this goes every year and i just feel like the people who fiercely wanted to, I feel like it's intensely kind of on the analytics side a lot, even though I like analytics. I'm friends with a lot of those people, but it feels like the defense of Gobert, you know, we use these regular season chunks of sample to justify this guy being a force, which he is, you know, but whenever, I mean, they were even, the thing that kills you is that if they get him rotating to the corner over and over again, like getting him to shuffle his feet

two and three times laterally, which is not something that he does often. You know, Jeff Anguni mentioned this on the broadcast, and, you know, then you get him out of the direct line of the rim and guys were attacking him. And then they, what's interesting is they started having success attacking him down the stretch of that game, which I thought was interesting. I don't know what you do going forward. If you're the jazz, you run it back, I guess, and hope that everybody's healthy. health was a big factor in this series. Yeah, I mean, the Mike Conley hamstring injury happened at maybe the

absolute worst possible time because it felt like, you know, he had really emerged as like some, some semblance of his former self had kind of come back to the surface. And so it's really a shame to see him go down and like he's obviously had some real battles in Staples Center as a grizzly in the past. I got to witness some of them in the back in his Zbo days. But man, I mean, like it looked like Staples was rocket. It did not look like. like the out-of-towner clippers, you know, and there seemed like it was like a really cool crowd tonight. And I just can't believe it.

We're about to start talking about the Sixers game in a segment that we recorded earlier in the evening. And I can't help but notice the parallels, both even though the Sixers won, and we're going to a game seven with the Sixers and the Hawks on Sunday night, you know, even coming out of a victory, you have like these sort of big picture questions about the stability and the long-term viability of that,

project, even though also a number one seed like the jazz. And the jazz are obviously going to have to do a lot of soul searching, because I don't know how for what they want to do and how they want to play and the way that they're kind of set up. Like they have the perfect lineup for that. You know what I mean? I don't really know what they could have done differently, who they could have like, whereas like, you know, you see certain teams like, I don't know, like the Lakers, like obviously would have loved to have had a third, third almost star. Like that like a Kyle Lowry would have been very useful at certain points during the postseason for the Lakers. I don't know what the Jazz could have done differently. They had it pretty much, they had the

best team in the NBA this season, and they just came up short. So I think they're going to have to answer a lot of questions over the off season. Yeah, it's been a tough week for the Jazz. I mean, in terms of, you know, you have this a lot of injuries, and then you have John Stockton and his whole thing. But, I mean, it does feel like, it kind of feels like Joe Ingalls has shifted maybe from like a solid secondary creator to maybe even like a tertiary it kind of makes me wonder if they could uh take a hit there and maybe send him somewhere and get younger i don't know i love joe ingles i'm not saying that he's the problem but i mean you just had you just got the feeling down the stretch i didn't think any of those kicks for three were going in i don't know why

even when they caught him i was just like it just didn't feel like it was going to like it was going to happen. It's a brutal, it's a brutal way to, it's a fickle thing, man. It's a, no, man. I mean, like, look, we've, we've just seen it over and over and over again in this postseason, just like we kind of saw in the bubble, but I think the bubble was so weird and was such a weird viewing experience anyway and obviously a very strange experience for those guys playing in it. But the, the postseason versus regular season basketball, it's not even just about the intensity in the crowd participation, the crowds being back in stadiums. It's just different, it's a different sport practically.

Like you are just not getting the looks that you got in the regular season. You do not get to run the stuff. And you do not just have coaches who are saying, oh, well, you know, like looks like we're down 22. We've seen multiple, like I can't tell you how many games in this postseason. It just seems like 20 points swings are just pretty common. And I know that a lot of that has to do with threes, but it just really does seem like no lead is safe.

Sixers blew something the other night. obviously the jazz blow it tonight. And what an amazing moment. So the Clippers go on. They're going to start the Western Conference finals against the Suns next week. We're still waiting to find out who's going to play in the Eastern Conference Finals.

We got Brooklyn and the Bucks game seven tomorrow night and then Philly the Hawks and the Hawks on Sunday. Kyle and I had a lovely conversation about Philadelphia, which you're about to hear now. There will be a couple of not aging well references to the Clippers getting tagged up and how we'll probably have a game seven of that series.

obviously disregard those. But thanks for listening. Freezing cold takes. Yeah. Freezing, immediately freezing cold takes. Flash frozen takes. So thank you to Kyle for staying up late with me tonight. Thank you to Carlos for staying up late with me tonight. We're going to get into our conversation about Philly and Atlanta,

as well as a little bit of chatter about the Campbell Walker trade. Camber Walker trade from early Friday morning. Thanks for listening to the Ringer NBA show. I wanted to do a post game pod for the Sixers game six. The Sixers are victorious beating Atlanta 104.99. in game six. And I wanted to kind of break down this game, break down this series a little bit.

There's been a lot of talk over the last couple of nights because of these two historic collapses. The Sixers suffered in games four and five. So I wanted to discuss it with my buddy, Kyle. We'll also hit a little bit of Kemba. And if it warrants it, we'll touch on Utah and the Clippers. Kyle, how confident were you?

Because you were texting me, you were like, how confident are you? Because the Sixers led for a majority of the second half, I think the entire second half almost. How confident were you that the Sixers would be able to pull this off? I kind of had a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach, I guess, just as a form of empathy for my Sixers fans. I don't know any Hawks fans, so I guess I'm more prone to that.

But it felt dicey to me just because for some reason, Philly has gotten to this point where a lot like Milwaukee, where I'm just like I don't trust their offensive fluidity. And I mean, this is the thing we've been worrying about with them for years. When, you know, when you have a certain kind of roster construction, you were kind of making a comment to me earlier about that, about their offense. And I was like, I kind of wonder sometimes if, you know, the thing that they have really geared themselves to have as their identity,

which is this big, oppressive, defensive thing, you're just prone to having lineups that are going to be prone to these types of droughts. But, I mean, in short, I wasn't super confident. Honestly, Atlanta just felt like they had some mojo going, so I easily, I felt like, I don't know. Did you have any confidence going throughout that game? I'd flip it back towards you. I had tons of confidence going into it, and I actually, like, I almost felt.

I had tons of confidence that we could win in Atlanta. I don't consider that to be like a fortress that nobody comes out of alive. And I also thought it couldn't get any worse. It couldn't get any worse after game five. so hopefully some residue of competitive spirit would merge from the Sixers and that they would be able to put together a road victory, which just is not too much to ask from a true title contender, which whether they like it or not, the Sixers are,

given the way that the playoffs have broken, the fact that Kyrie is not going to be playing tomorrow night against the Bucks in game seven, the fact that a lot of the Western Titans have fallen like the Sixers, if they were just play up to their quote-unquote potential, whatever that is, I think you would have to consider them a title contender. And in reality, in the real world, off of like, forget the 538 projections or whatever

models we've got, they can barely beat the Hawks. And that is, that is, like, definitely just, like, a reality that I'm trying to grapple with. We had a really nice game. We saw a really nice game tonight from a couple of Sixers players and then some crappy performances from some others. And I had to, like, I have to say, I was almost gratified by the fact that they were down, that they were down in the first half. I felt like it was almost better for them to be playing from behind

and just have to like chase the game a little bit rather than rather than keep the Hawks out of it because that seems to be something they are almost completely incapable. I would almost prefer that they spot the Hawks 20 going into game seven. I don't know if they could come back from that. I don't know if their offense has gotten so stale

that they can't make up that kind of margin. But it was a really like, it was almost preferable to watch them scratch and claw their way back into it, then go on a 9-0 run at the beginning of the third quarter, and just feel like, okay, fine, like they got all the crap out of their system, and now they're running a little bit more cleanly. And then, of course, you know, basically, like the last quarter of the game

is, like, culminating with the hackaband with about seven minutes left. I thought things got really gumbed up, and it was really up to Tyrese Maxi to save the day. The Maxi game. Yeah, I was curious if, you know, You talked about them playing up to their potential. I mean, let's just sort of, you get in the chair here. I mean, where did you feel like, what are you disappointed with specifically?

What is stopping them from, you know, where are they falling short from playing the way that they should play, in your opinion? Well, I think that you could go through, and we're going to go through a couple of the players here. I wanted to kind of go through a couple of Sixers players. And I also didn't want to be a dick and not talk about the Hawks because the Hawks are actually punching way above their weight class. Or maybe this is exactly who the Hawks are and nobody knew, and it's just like they needed somebody like Nate McMillan in charge of the team. And this is actually like what the Hawks have to show us when they have a healthy squad. And this is exactly like this mix of young talent and some veteran savvy.

And they lost Bogdanovich about midway through the game. He only played about 29 minutes, but he took a knee knock. And I don't know if he's going to be playing on Sunday as we're recording. But the Hawks like credit to them, they played really well. The Sixers thing is starting to get, I think, it's starting to be really complicated to talk about because you can't tell what of it is systematic and what of it is psychological.

You can't tell what parts of it are, like, and beads maybe his physical health versus his gas tank versus his sort of engagement with the project, you know? And the Simmons thing is the epitome of that. It's like Simmons in flashes, like in that third quarter run, was doing the kinds of things

that I think if you watch Ben Simmons a lot, you know the kind of value he brings to the team. These quick, high-velocity passes from the defensive side of the court to start offensive plays, and he got Curry some open looks. He was like moving the ball down the court in a very direct, purposeful way.

And then, you know, I mean, like later on in the game, you see him block a Trey Young three-pointer and like how many guys can play perimeter defense like that. But other than that, it was an absolute atrocity. It was actually uncomfortable to watch. I mean, what did you, what do you think of where Simmons is at right now? I mean, it's really tough. It's amazing how up and down this has been from game to game

because last game it was like people were just chomping at the bit to get their old takes out about, you know, Simmons not fitting. I mean, and then, I mean, you guys came perilously close to your season ending tonight. Like that, that. I'm well aware of it. I mean, when the lights went out, I was just like, God has a sense of humor. Like, or God likes metaphors.

I don't know which one is, like, it's just, this is going to happen here. Yeah, with Ben, it's just, it's amazing how the taste in your mouth can be dictated by such a, such a thin, how margin, how slim the margin is between these really, really dramatic, drastic thoughts. I mean, like, if they had lost tonight, do you think that it would be, do you think that the difference there is big enough to say, I'm going to make a move or I'm not going to make a move based on the outcome of this game tonight. Like, let's say they lost. I mean, would it change your, where would your feelings be on that? I just don't think that he can play in Philadelphia that much longer if they lose tonight. Yeah.

If they had lost tonight, I just think that that, that would have come to a kind of like, let's do what's best for both sides here. And now I think you'd probably be selling low on Ben Simmons's value, you know? Like, it was funny. I was talking with Fantasy last night about. this and Sean had been saying to me like you're going to go through it with the Hawks like the Hawks are a very irritating team they're they're the way that they score feels unfair because like they can just pour it on from outside or tray hits like the kind of shot where he's like the shot

clocks running and down and you play perfect defense and he chucks up something off of one foot falling out of bounds and it goes down or he hits something from 35 and he gets guys in foul trouble and they're annoying and he's Sean was right but John was also saying basically Simmons is kind of suffering the same thing that happened to Randall in that series, where it's like you were kind of relying on Simmons and you are sort of seeing not only his like cue rating within the league tank, but also like whatever, whatever value he had for like a trade is kind of bottoming out. I don't like to look at him that way because I'm a huge fan of like his play and I just love how unique he is in a lot of ways and it's really,

really hard for me to quit him. And I know that he has a certain aloof demeanor and he kind just seems like the varsity quarterback who just doesn't give a shit sometimes or maybe a guy who doesn't like seemingly work on certain parts of his game. And I, I can't believe I'm in another place where I'm cheering for another player who doesn't refuses to shoot. Like it is, it is really uncomfortable. But there's a huge part of me that doesn't want to give up on this guy. because I do think he's such a unique talent. On the other hand, like, if Portland offered McCollum for Simmons,

like, I'd probably, I'd probably drive in the airport. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a tough thing for him because, I don't know, we had a lot of conversations that were pretty, I know Sixers fans are, like,

beyond fatigued with this conversation. If you bring it up, I've encountered this directly. You bring this thing up, it's just like this thing that's going to either, they're either going to win or it's going to continue to be an issue. But, you know, and we got a lot of pushback in our top 25 list for Ben Simmons's place. And I guess, you know, I've heard people say that, you know, the playoffs are when you

evaluate players in general because that's the ultimate thing that matters. And, you know, if your star player is getting picked on in this way, it's just a conversation that's going to continue to be a thing until, you know, they win or whatever. But with the Hawks, it's interesting you were talking about them punching up. up. They've had sort of an interesting year where we started the year. I remember one of the first answers I came on with you, we were talking about the Hawks. You know, Lucas situation versus Trays. Yeah. And I remember being very effusive. I thought about the Hawks situation. But then we got into that crappy spell where it was just like, you know, all the players, the players are

mad at Trey or John Collins is like, you know, one in or out kind of deal. And I kind of think we've circle kind of back to where we were. I don't feel like this is fluky. I mean, there was a lot of excitement about their roster building early in the year before those things started to happen. I don't know. I think they're an interesting team, man. I mean, they have three initiators in their starting lineup, you know, whenever Hunter wasn't there anymore. I just think that they are a template for, they're going to be an interesting team for a long time. Maybe not a long time, for a while, because I really just, I really like Kevin Herder. Like, that's another piece to this.

I feel like he, whenever he had sort of a dry spell in that second half, that was when Philly kind of ramped it up and took control of the game, I felt like. Well, there's a certain elegance to their roster construction. There's a certain logic to, there's a hierarchy to it. Now, I think that they are overly dependent on maybe Herder and Gallo being hot on any given night, right? And maybe not dying on Lou Williams' minutes. and then any offense that isn't Trey. I mean, you can just see when he's off the floor,

you're just looking at your watch. If you're a Hawks fan, or just watching the game, you're just like, man, how long can they stand not having him out there? And Riscilla said the other day, he's the toughest player in the series. He absolutely is.

Like, he absolutely is. So it hurt or is? No, he said Trey. Trey. Trees. Herd, seems fine. I don't know.

I'm just glad to him. Was that Hurt or I heard? No, no. He was saying Trey was the toughest guy in this series, and I honestly have. to agree with him. He's the most skill play in this in the series. I don't even think it's really close, to be honest, like good.

I think he's overall. Well, and I will also say that he is playing in a system and he is playing, he's playing in a system designed around his strengths, and he is playing to his strengths. And there's no, uh, there are no hurdles to him being the best version of himself. Now, you watch Embedd tonight. And we can do a little Embed here. I'm sure we'll circle back to Simmons. There's a lot of problems of the Sixers and Embed is not one of them.

Embed was arguably the MVP before he got hurt. He's been having a tremendous playoffs, despite the fact that he's played most of it on a torn meniscus. He is great. This is unimpeachable. I love Embedit. He's one of my favorite Philadelphia athletes ever. I do think that tonight, whether it was because he ran out of gas, he's hurt, or maybe he's just, like, frustrated that this is where things have come down to having a must-win game six against the fifth seed. I didn't think that he played his best tonight.

I thought he was sloppy with the ball throughout the first half. I thought he was making careless passes. He was getting his pocket picked. And I thought even in the second half, while he was tremendous on defense, was playing in a part of the court that I do not think is like where his value is. I don't think that him, you know, 12, 13 feet from the hoop

is really like what he should be doing. He should be down low, getting contact, finishing, going to the free throw line. That is where he should be, he should just be destroying Copella's life on the low block. Am I being too much of a traditionalist about that? I mean, he's done a lot of damage. He really upped his percentages in that area where you're talking about. I think you're talking about like him being fatigued and him, his body language was weird.

I think those things are all just kind of interconnected because I was noticing, you know, when you're thinking about an injury like that, it's just really difficult to get it out of your head. I know we joked about, I was like, I'm a doctor, I've had every sports injury, but I have had a lot of knee injuries. I'm being serious. And I mean, I know that like it is hard to get it out of your head because you're afraid somebody's going to bump into it. You feel it when you're pivoting it. Just kind of recalibrate to your brain in a weird way that's uncomfortable. And I notice he's gotten better about this year in terms of like how he reacts to doubles, how he sees them coming. He had gotten better about not catching going right and blind, into a double team going left. He did it twice in the first half of this game. I think you alluded to that a second ago. I think he just looks, you know, he was nine for, nine for 24, 37 and a half percent in this game. One assist, eight turnovers. He looked, to me, he looked preoccupied. Like his offensive bandwidth is what I call it, which is just like your ability to like stay totally focused and be able to read the floor. He looked distracted to me by that.

that, and I think that that, by the end of the game, he just looked tired. And I think Capella is quick enough where it's not like a battle of, you know, forces trying to move each other so much. It's just like, Capella can get in his way and just kind of junk it up in a way that might have been irritating him. I mean, I'm just kind of theorizing here. But yeah, he, he did, he did kind of go looking for fouls, too, a few times, I thought, and didn't get them. So, I don't know. Yeah, I thought I, there's nothing more boring, honestly, than retroactive referee. reviewing, but I was not a fan of the refereeing tonight, as you might imagine. And, you know, Zach Lowe tweeted, I would love to have seen that game if Simmons doesn't get four fouls really

fast. I would love to see the Simmons game if he didn't get that. That being said, I don't think Simmons, I mean, I know that he got that one moving screen call that really obviously like just completely knocked him off his square. But there was a lot of offense being played where, especially down the stretch, Maxie would bring the ball up. It would be Simmons was on the floor, but not playing point guard. He was this floating non-stretch four who also didn't rebound, which is like kind of almost inexcusable as to like why he's on the floor, if that's going to be what he's able to bring into a half-court set.

And you could see him like pointing out what the offense should do. Like, you know, Maxi would bring the ball up and Simmons would be pointing at Embed or he would be pointing at the screen that someone was going to set him so that he could set up. He was basically like trying to direct the ball over to Seth. And sometimes Maxie would follow his directions and sometimes he wouldn't. But it's, it was such an amazing microcosm of the issue that we have here. You know, it's like you have so many little pieces on the Sixers that do two out of five things really, really well. Simmons does these things really well.

Thibald does a couple of things really well. Like, and then you get into it. They don't, like have synergy with each other. That's a problem. They don't. They don't. You know, and it was like at any given point, like I thought, I thought, Matisse was incredible in spurts tonight.

I thought some of his defense of the first half really stopped the bleeding. Like I thought that there was a lot going on that was good. But like when you try to, when you put a lot of pressure on this lineup, on this roster, there's just so many cracks. You know, and maybe what you were saying is right. Maybe it's just playoff basketball and these are long serieses. And Nate McMillan wasn't born yesterday and is exploiting a lot of things in the Sixers lineups.

But, you know, the same thing is happening to Milwaukee. but I do think that it's, it just feels like we've tried this a couple of different times. We've tried it with like the Fed's lineups and we've tried it with Butler and we've tried it with Hord and we've tried it. And now we're here and this is the most like, it's Harris and Curry and Danny Green when he's healthy

and now Maxie emerging and George Hill and all these shooters who guys are like, it's your team. It's your team guys. And Tobias Harris, if I've ever seen a number three, a guy who is more of a number three than Tobias Harris, who's capable of putting up 22, but is never going to get in the way of actually, like,

winning you the crucial game. So then it's like, is Simmons, how far is Simmons from being a two? He seems miles away. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the two, three dynamic between them. I was kind of wondering tonight if maybe, let's say, hypothetically, I know this isn't going to be anybody's favorite hypothetical here,

but, I mean, let's say hypothetically they tweaked it so that Tobias was the one. Because it just seems like that, it's fun in theory to go big and to be a lot. And far be it from me to like question, I know these people have some rationale behind what they're doing, but it just seems like you get clunkiness in your fluidity when it comes. If you just look at how fluid the hawks are, how much playmaking and shooting.

You know, Tobias can shoot, but it's just like he's not a quick kind of drinkster off the catch. Tobias needs a waiter to bring him his food. Like, Tobias can make things happen, but it has to be like two dribbles or less. and it's like he hits a ball, he gets a pass, he's coming off screen, and he's either going to shoot or go to the rim, and that's it. But if Tobias has to, like, do calculus, like, I just think that he gets all jammed up.

Yeah, and we always talk about, like, C.J. McCollum, I don't even know that he necessarily fixes that. Like, I don't know that he is, he's the, the answer there. Like, and I think, you know, for me, ideally, I think the, if I was just taking Ben Simmons, and I was just like, okay, I, you have a clean slate here to, like, build, whatever you want around him. I think that he is probably, I mean, I'm not so sure about him playing defense as a five. I mean, it sounds fun in theory, but like putting him as like the connective playmaking piece between two score first guards makes a lot of sense to me.

But, you know, I guess I don't know how much they've experimented. You can comment on this. How much have they experimented with him at the five this year? Have they done that at all? Well, I mean, this is, they didn't do it during that stretch run when Embeddeed was out. and if you look at there's like a whole contingent of Sixers Twitter Mosinoleby, Ben Dietrich

who wrote obviously the Calangelo's story for the ringer who were just like, it's criminal that like we just stick to this very traditionalist Dwight gets his 17 minutes per game or whatever or 12 minutes a game in the playoffs or whatever he gets but that there is just this very like rigid rotation

that Doc has and that yeah obviously game six of the NBA playoffs and the second of the semifinals of the conference or not that is not the time to be like, can Ben play the five? Yeah. But this is why you should have done it maybe earlier in the season. I mean, this is why you maybe should have experimented more a little earlier in the season,

rather than now being in a situation where he's not hitting free throws, so he's essentially a liability at the end of the second quarter in the fourth quarter. And they had to do all this, like, if the game had been even like a point or two closer, would Doc have been able to do all those timeouts to get Ben in and out? because he was doing a lot of a lot of furniture redecorating to get Ben Simmons on and off the floor. And I couldn't tell whether that was for purely defensive reasons or whether or not he needed to keep him happy enough to like show up for game seven. So honestly. Yeah, I guess that's all, I mean other than the foul stuff.

But I mean, I'm seeing no center reps this season. Okay. According to basketball reference, no, zero looks at center. It's an interesting idea. I don't know. I like him flying around as sort of a supportive piece. You would think that they'd be able to stagger the second unit minutes, like bring in whether it be like shake and maxi

and then run some like high dribble handoff type stuff where he's rolling to the rim so it's not as dependent. So his spacing isn't so much of a talking point in the offense. You can like have him pass into spot up guys. Sounds fun in theory. I'd like to see that. I honestly think the foul shots are. are completely in his head because you can kind of see that in the first quarters usually

like he'll get like a couple of two-handed dunks off and it's like damn like how could you not love what this guy brings like look at him rolling towards the hoop and then as soon as he starts like you'll start to see these moments where Simmons is like running downhill you're like damn dude just just cock back on this guy come on and like he'll get up in the air and kick it out and you're like I wonder if there's a part of you that's starting to hear the the free throw kind of reps. And he just doesn't want to get any contact at the rim because it means he's going to have to go to the line.

Well, he had that one tonight. I texted you and I said that was weak. It was a weak day. He should have dunked it. And I think he was just like, I don't want it. Now, there's a lot of, like, I think the Sixers are seating a little bit of, like, I think they could get a little bit more second chances going.

I do think that if they kept guys down on the glass, they might be able to get a couple of more points. But obviously, like, you know, eliminating transition opportunities is clearly like a, you know, a foundational text for almost every NBA coach. Because you just see guys like, nobody is really trying to get offensive boards in the playoffs anymore, it seems like. But yeah, I mean, what else should we talk about when it comes to the Sixers? Because I do want to give the Hawks a little bit of dab here. I mean, I think you're right.

The point you made about transition specifically with the Hawks, because if Trey can get momentum in the pieces moving in transition, and get going, you know, north-south, he's going to be a lot more effective and that length is going to, is going to bother him less. I thought he was, I just think in general, this has been an interesting touch point for the Trey brand, you know, like I feel like his respect. There's, there's a thing with him in the, and I guess you and I talked about this earlier in the year, but there's a thing with him and Luca that is interesting to me where it just feels like we have to pick. And I've never really enjoyed that conversation so much. It's just like, yeah, Luca's always going to be better than Trey, in my opinion. But I don't know. I've been just

interested to see this sort of brand evolution for Trey this playoffs. It feels like some people just flat out became aware of him. Like maybe just didn't realize he was this good. I'll tell you something. There was a couple of times during this game when the calls were really, really, really going against the Sixers. And like, I think Atlanta had been to the line like 14 times and the Sixers like none of their starters had been to the free throw line. I was like, is this a, is this like the NBA in the pocket of Big Trey? Is Big Trey's algorithmic viability? Like, is he just like, because I know that he's an enormously popular player. You know what you mean? And like, I think that, I don't think that

this was any way a conspiracy to keep Philadelphia out of the Eastern Conference finals or whatever. But I do think that you're right. I think that a lot of people are like coming to Trey for for the first time here. I think honestly, a lot of people were being introduced to Luca, you know,

in the playoffs this year. I think it's, I'm gobsmack that we, like, are able to have these conversations about 22-year-olds. Like, the idea that these guys are both leading their teams

to the post-season trade deep into the post-season is absolutely amazing, you know, and with all the, you know, volatility going on in Dallas, it'll be fascinating to see next year

whether or not they can put something in place that mirrors like the success that Atlanta's had in the Eastern Conference is as soon as next year for Dallas because I don't know if it's as simple as that. Obviously, Atlanta executed a really, like, pretty well-done plan with a lot of broken eggs on the way to making the omelet.

You know, Dallas is in that broken egg phase right now. I don't know how quickly it all comes together. But you're right. I mean, like, it is a false binary to have to have, like, you're either Trey or Luca. I do think they're always going to be pitted against one another because they were traded for one another. Yeah, for sure.

for sure. And it's amazing just how how much contact Atlanta's front office made with the ball and how hard Dallas struck out and just fell face first into the dirt. And now, and they're still spiraling. And it's at this point where it's just like make the spiraling stop first and then start looking at these. And you know, Luke is such a floor razor. He's going to be able to drag even like replacement level pieces to a respectable outcome more often than not because that's just kind of the player he is prototypically. But, yeah, I mean, Atlanta is like, I almost wonder in the future, do you think Atlanta is going to have to, MBE's health, obviously, here is a big, and how many seasons in a row

is this of, like, MBE literally limping to the finish line? The better, the better question is what season has not been the case? Yeah, I mean, it's to that point where, but I was just wondering in the future, let's say, this continues to be a thing between these two teams. It's kind of wondering if Atlanta is going to need to get some kind of a backup center or just some sort of a center specifically for Mb, let's say that the Sixers take this series. What do you think that they, what do you think about that? I think that that's, that's an interesting question because of the amount of like, the amount of thinking that goes into like, let's make this team, we're going to build a Yonis

wall. This team is constructed to stop Yonah, so this team is constructed to slow down and beat or This team is constructed to destroy the jazz or whatever, like, these ideas that basically teams learn a lesson from a previous postseason and take it into their next season planning. I think Atlanta has been prudent enough to know that, like, they don't want to like necessarily. I don't think they're so close that they're like, we're just one piece away from being the best team in the Eastern Conference. I think you've got Brooklyn. I think you've got Milwaukee. You've got Philly. You've got Miami.

You would assume would be doing a little. little bit better without COVID. You've got, you know, the Knicks are doing well. Like, like, like there's a bunch of other good Eastern Conference teams. I don't think Atlanta's so close to the best, to being it's the best that they can just be like, man, we just need to get, like, we need to get Dwight back. And then it'll just be fine, Dwight backing up Capella, and we can, we can nullify indeed. It's, it's, uh, but it is an interesting question about where they are in terms of their development. I think that because the Clippers sort of tanked for Dallas a little bit, like, and to get out of that Lakers side of the bracket.

And because Dallas really gave him, gave him, like, a good showing in the beginning of the series, there was almost like this perception that Dallas was, like, somehow a Western Conference Elite team just simply off of Luca, you know, whereas, like, obviously that didn't play out over the course of the rest of the series. Atlanta, I think, is still, like, a year away from being a year away and is just going to be, like, psych that this is happening. Yeah, and I think that's the difference I was going to comment on this. That's the, you and you and Tyler Parker talked about that on like the, I think it was you guys,

just talking about the difference between the ride up and the ride down. You know, if you were, if you guys were on the ride up and you win that game tonight, I mean, you probably have already had, you know, four beers at that point. Sure. And for Atlanta, you know, I'm sure they're just kind of in that house money phase. But yeah, I think that's, and you have to be careful, I think, whenever you're responding, When you're kind of doing that copycat thing and zinging with everyone else that's zinging, you kind of have to go your own way there a little bit in that way. And I think that,

and that's true in the simple in like the game sense too, is that like you don't want to get too carried away getting outside of your specific plan, you know, because you can go too hard for that. And I feel like Philly kind of did that some tonight, just anecdotally. I mean, they kind of went to Cork Maws and tried to attack Trey. I mean, that's another thing. I mean, I give Trey a little bit of credit because he wasn't in the one-on-one on-ball situations. He wasn't a total pushover. Like he was battling a little bit there. Yeah.

And honestly, like, they played their asses off. They looked a little deflated coming off the court. I think they knew that team. The Sixers were there to be beaten tonight, and it wasn't going to be as easy on Sunday. Now, I don't know at this point, since this will be what, like, they have a day off and then they play on Sunday. And this is like now that the second game in a row that will be.

be a 48-hour rolling break. So, like, their turnarounds are pretty tight. I don't know at this point who that benefits and who that hurts more because obviously Embed, you have to worry about his, like, energy levels, but Trey seemed to be pretty gas coming off the floor. Bogdanovitch has hurt. Galinari seemed to be kind of wincing at the end of the game. I don't know, like, whether anybody is going to have their best punch on Sunday. But, like, you have to imagine if your Atlanta, while this can't be surprising that you lost to the number one seed, you would have really, you're going to feel like you let the series slip away here a little bit. Yeah, and Gellinari kills me, like him just looking like the catcher from Angels in the

outfield really giving me a lot of amusement there. But it's amazing just how, I mean, he was never like a super fleet of foot guy to begin with, but when he dunks, it always just feels like it's on the verge of disaster. Like if he gets to the rim, he kind of dunks like I, do on like an eight foot goal. It's like, it's like, yeah, I can get it, but just barely getting it there. Yeah, he was, and I think that I joked about it, but I mean, Maxi's energy, uh, and fearlessness, frankly, kind of kept the, kept the balloon in the air for the sixers. Yeah, I mean, several different points. That's a nice way of putting he saved the season. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's easy to forget how close they came there. But yeah, I mean,

16 points. Uh, yeah, and he went five for 12. And yeah, and the, the, the, the, the, this sort of point guard by proxy thing that you were pointing out with Simmons and him is interesting too because Maxie is this like fearless score, but you know, the margins were so thin there tonight. It was kind of funny to watch. It did seem like they were a little, there was a lot of like pointing, let's get into the offense going on. I think that there was a couple of moments and I couldn't tell actually there was a few moments where I was like, I feel like some of this might, some of this confusion might be on a bead. There was some stuff in the first half as well with Matisse, where there just seemed to be guys being like, where are you standing?

Why aren't you moving the way we're supposed to move on the iPad? Like, there was a lot of like finger pointing for game number, whatever it is, 91 of the season. You know what I mean? Or whatever, however many games they've played. Like, I was surprised. Now, with Maxie, a rookie, he gets out there, different situations. I'm not surprised that, like, Simmons is, like, stand there or I'm going to set this screen or make sure you get it to Embed.

And, you know, like, Embedd's getting, like, relatively poor. post service, I think, like, in terms of the, like, the entry passes. Like, I would not describe them as, you know, it's like Kevin Johnson, like, feeding the, feeding the post. But, yeah, Maxie was doing things. You would never expect some of us to do it, but it's like, I don't know necessarily that you need to play that much more George Hill if Maxie's going to play like that. Because George Hill does not seem to be up to speed on this, on this system.

or in playoff basketball right now. And Maxi was just blowing by guys, hitting threes, competing on defense. And it was just a really like, honestly, like it was the feel good story of the postseason for me. That Maxi was specifically? Yeah, Maxi and Shake have been like the two biggest thrills. I mean, like Embeddead obviously has been a god,

but this has been a little bit of a rough stretch. And Beed's playing on a torn meniscus. Simmons can't, Simmons is crumbling. Seth Curry is apparently our best back court player. Like, it's been a little bit rough. Yeah, I think, I mean, it did kind of look like Seth Curry was, he didn't look right there in that first half. I think he got hit in the shoulder early on

and didn't seem like he ever really, really got back into it. He hit a couple of huge threes, obviously, in the third quarter, but this is the part of playoff basketball. It's tough is like most guys are playing with an injury that probably would keep them out of a regular season game. Yeah. So they were probably all limping around. Hey, before we go, because we've, you know, we did our requisite 30 minutes on a game six when we're going to have a game seven on Sunday.

And as we're recording the jazz or tagging the clippers. If there's a reverse of that, we'll come back and chat a little bit about that. But I wanted to ask you a little bit about the Kamba trade before we go. Yeah. So Trader Braddie in the building. First day on the job pretty much. And Brad Stevens is now running ops over at, for the Boston Celtics. and there was a huge trade this morning, very early this morning,

with Boston sending Campbell Walker and the 16th pick of this year's draft and a 2025 second rounder to the Oklahoma City Thunder for Al Horford, making his return to Boston and Moses Brown, who was kind of like a cult classic favorite in there at the end of the season, plus the 2023 second rounder. So the Kamba experiment is over. The obvious first takeaway that everything is about this is that Boston's going to save about $20 million because they owe, they would have owed Kempa $73 million over the next few years,

whereas it's only like 40 guaranteed, I believe, to Horford, if I'm correct. I don't have that in front of me. Yeah, $41 million guaranteed to Horford. And Oklahoma City Thunder continue their sort of their stance as the, I don't know, like the weighing station for yeah like the high end like ghost tenants of of of of high end condos in new york city like where it's just like nobody knows who owns this this really luxury pad but like like very specific happy to keep it on our books um two things here one let's start with boston boston is conceivably like they're they're freeing up a little bit of money to resign fournier i would

assume, and then they are also trying to put themselves in play for a free agency offseason to be determined. But let me ask you this. After Isaiah Thomas, after Gordon Hayward, after Kyrie Irving, and now after Kemble Walker, do you think even Brad Stevens are the most, like, positive Boston fan really thinks that Boston would be considered a free agent destination? It's, if you look at the, it is really amazing, the momentum shift that we, that we've had. since like early 2018 to now, you know, in that, in that situation where it looked like the Celtics were like, they had all these, all these moves were sort of like. They were late years east, man. Yeah, yeah. They had all this like death star energy that was like collecting. And then it was like,

here comes the thrust. And it was like, Hayward gets hurt. Kimba has injury problems. It just seemed like, and even though you had these two wings that are very promising developing, I mean, there are people I've heard argue that that wasn't necessarily great for Tatum. That it kind of maybe enabled some of Tatum's qualities that people don't love as much, that maybe it geared him away from more of a playmaking role. For me, are they a free agent destination? Something would have to shift in terms of like, it would have to be almost like a player-to-player thing, it seems like, at this point.

Because Boston's, they've, I mean, fairly or unfairly, I don't want anyone to get into all that. I mean, have taken sort of a hit in terms of like some of their energy in the press from the players. I know Karees come after them. I don't know. I mean, who would they even go after that they have a shot at getting, do you think, at this point? I mean, like, look, I understand the Kempa thing obviously was unworkable to the point that they did not, like, clearly didn't make much of a public market for Kempel Walker. I think that there was an assumption that they would probably try to do something like this. But for it to be done before the draft lottery even is pretty, pretty early work. And obviously a sign that they want to put together a team

for this next coach, whether it's Chauncey Billups or whoever it is, put together a team for this next coach, and they go into that training camp with the coach having like a stable lineup, a stable roster. I just think, yeah, maybe it'll be John, maybe Petino could come back to Boston.

I think it's just an interesting note that like there was like some of the like sort of takeaways from the deal was like, you know, they'll have like all this cap room once. Horford's guaranteed money comes off the books. I'm like, for what? You know, that is my first choice. The second point I wanted to make is just to ask you whether you thought Thunder fans should bother getting Kemba jerseys or not.

I had somebody texting me about that very thing, thinking that Kimba was not long for this situation. I don't know. Do you think that the Sixers could be in a situation maybe? That'd be a question I would have in the off season. Would you – I wouldn't touch Kimba personally. I wouldn't go anywhere near it. Because of the knees? Yeah, and also, you know, you start getting this is, I've talked, I've just been blue in the face about this phenomenon,

how few players buck that like digression or decline in productivity past a certain age. And you think about he is pretty heavily score first and a smaller guard too that depends a lot on his quickness. He's not nearly as much of a pace guard as somebody like Chris Paul, not as much of a game manager. tactician. You know, if you need one more, if you can afford it, I don't know, it'd be, I would be very, very hesitant to do it, me personally, if I was built. If I was really close and I thought that I could swing it for a season, you know, and I thought that we could get there. It had not even occurred to me to make some sort of play for Kemba Walker. I mean, like, I suppose, like, there won't be some conversation about, like, a buyout thing, but Kemba's got

a lot of money on some bad knees in that contract. So I don't really know how anxious Kemma Walker is going to be to get bought out. out. And honestly, you know, like the thunder, the ever, the never ending tank aside, like the thunder could conceivably come out of Tuesday night with a two top five picks and Kemba Walker going into the, going into the, you know, to the draft. So Kate Cunningham, Shea and Kemba and whoever they get a five or whatever, that's an exciting, that's not not exciting. I would, I'd rather be that in Sacramento. It's to the point where, like, you could say, it's, I'm becoming a character like,

like, of myself, like, where you could mention any combination of players. You could be like, uh, Kade campaign and, uh, I don't know, the guy who mops the floors. I'm like, oh, baby. Yeah, I just get, I'm just, I'm firmly on the K. Yeah, Kimba is owed, yeah, like $73 million over the next two seasons. So that's an expensive move for somebody. Um, yeah, the Thunder, the Thunder are interesting, uh, on that front. I mean, I was wondering today if at some point if you have that many picks, do you kind of lose leverage in the fact that people know that you're not going to use them at some point?

But yeah, Moses Brown, you were joking about that. I think Moses Brown is an interesting just sort of throw into this trade for the Celtics, specifically not to go to Ringer MBA University on you. But he's seven foot two. And I think that if he ever develops like positionally as a defensive big, he could be really interesting. I mean, the Celtics essentially rebuilt their front line, which is something they were like, they had time lord, but like that, and I know that a lot of Celtics fans were happy to see the back of Tice, but by getting in Horford and Brown, they now have front court depth that they did not have last season overnight, plus, you know, like they get an interesting young piece in Brown and they get off of the Kamba deal. The Thunder thing, you know, it'll, it'll just be, I cannot personally, I cannot wait till the day that somebody, whether it's, whoever, you want to say, cat most likely,

but somebody like, not Zion, because I just think they would have to close that they would have to fold the franchise if they traded Zion, but like some younger star who seems disaffected or maybe seems to have like, that's just not going to work out.

And the Thunder just have like, hey, here's five first round picks for, for Carl Anthony Towns. You know? I mean, we can make some, we can throw some stuff in there to make the money work.

But like, yeah, well, how about, how about we do that? You know, like, I mean, obviously Minnesota is not going to want to get rid of Carl Anthony Towns, but if Carl Anthony Towns is like, I'm not, I'm not going to resign or whatever the situation is, who's the guy, who is the player, and what's the situation where the thunder just splash the pot? And if those picks actually don't matter to somebody, what's the value of them?

Does the value of all those first round picks change? Yeah, it's going to be, a lot is going to come down to where, I mean, the wolves specifically are an interesting case because where that top, where that pick falls, with the Warriors is going to be interesting. I don't know. Carl, it seems like he's going to be there for a while longer. I don't know. Who's going to be on the horizon? I was just thinking as you were asking that. Who would even be worth? Yeah, but what, I mean, like, honestly, like, what if Beal is like, like, I need out of here? Beal's an interesting one. Yeah. And like, obviously, Beal would probably, I would imagine, rather just stay in D.C. and just leg it out than go to Oklahoma and rebuild. But

what if, what if Oklahoma is? What if Oklahoma is. was just like, yeah, here's four first rounders and for Bradley Beale. You know what I mean? Like they wouldn't, wouldn't there have to be a conversation at least? I would think so. I mean, for Beale specifically, I mean, so much is in flux, man. I mean, like here, we really need a couple more months to really have a really good, a better idea just because we're so early, you know, and there are a lot of these things that have to, the draft lottery is going to be an interesting thing to set up the conversation for where these pieces could move. Right. because it's going to sort of dial in how feasible, how quickly some of these teams could.

Because this is a good draft. I don't think that it's as like flat. Like I guess it doesn't all kind of, it's not all contingent on this draft in particular, the next few drafts. But because I know like New Orleans, their picks don't really set in until like 2022 and they're like from the Lakers. So yeah, I mean a lot of those pieces have to kind of line up depending on where they're going to fall in the draft lottery.

and I'm going to be fascinated to see where it goes. Yeah, there's a lot of chaotic time in the NBA. We could wrap it up there. The chaos is great for content. Thanks to Kyle for joining us on Friday. Thanks to Carlos for recording us tonight. And we'll be back. Kyle will be back on Sunday.

Is that right with KOC? Yep, yep. So Sunday night on the Ringer NBA show, you can catch Kyle. There will also be obviously be the Bill and Riscilla show on Sunday over the game seven. I am going to go and enjoy the fumes off of the Sixers win. We'll keep an eye on this Clipper score.

If it changes drastically, we'll come back and do a topper. But otherwise, you guys have a great weekend.