The Ringer NBA Show - Dame and KD Return to Their Former Teams, and Why the New Player Participation Rule Is Flawed | Real Ones

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

Logan and Raja discuss the return of Damian Lillard and Kevin Durant to their former teams, the differences in how those fan bases welcomed them back, and why the fans’ response is largely based on the specific circumstances (1:35). Next, the guys talk about the issues with the new 65-game requirement for award consideration and how the league can find a balance between prioritizing the health of players and still incentivizing them to play (25:28). Finally, the guys close with their Real Ones of the Week (40:17). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This might be the best quarterback draft class in years, and we have huge franchises like Chicago, New England, and Washington, with a ton on the line. My name is Craig Horlbeck and I host the Ringer NFL Draft Show with Danny Kelly, Ben Solac, and Danny Hyfitz. We cover trades, free agency, the draft, obviously, everything. We'll tell you all about which quarterbacks are going to be good, which quarterbacks are going to be bad, like Kenny Pickett,

and if there's a diamond in the rough like Brock Purdy. Follow us at the Ringer NFL Draft show on Spotify. It's popping. We're old ones. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bill. there, Rajah, as soon as he gets on the call, is like, fuck it, let's go. He has shit to do today. He doesn't go fuck about this pot

anymore. Wow. Wow. He says, I'm in and out. Let's do it. Let's get the fuck on. Let's do this. You know? I'm not one for small talk. This is Thursday real ones. Never been one for small talk, but you are here for long talk. You do talk for a long time when you do get in a bag. Once I get going, yes, if I'm passionate

about something, I can get going. But if I'm not passionate about it and I don't care about it, I'm not going to waste many syllables on it. So he'd be like, yeah, that's what's up. Or let's get this shit going because I got to go. Okay. Let's get this shit going. I don't know what else to say.

So last night wound up being just like the return night for everybody, right? This was the night where Dame returned to Portland, Buck's Portland Trailblazers. That was the nightcap. And then, you know, before that, the little matinee was Sun's Nets when Kevin Durant went back to Brooklyn. And there was a difference in the responses, right? There was a difference in how Brooklyn responded to KD in the four tumultuous years that he had in Brooklyn. They still had a video tribute to the man.

and he got a smattering of booze, got some cheers, got all these things, everything that you could think of under the sun. And Dame got a whole minute standing ovation. It's interesting just to see just the differences. Obviously, we all know the context. Anyone that listens to real ones and listens to NBA pods knows the difference in context of why they were treated as such. But it was interesting just the difference.

Rajah, I know it's a bit more nuanced and we're going to get into the nuance and all these things, but how should fans respond to the return of one of their favorite players or one of the best players of all time in Katie's case?

The appropriate response from a fan base when someone has been there and tried their best for an extended period of time to get over the hump, even if they did or didn't get over that hump, is to celebrate them. That's the appropriate response to give them their flowers, to show appreciation for the work put in there,

no matter how it kind of comes down at the end, right? Because that doesn't discount everything that said player did for your organization, right? So what was done for Dame Lillard's, which should be done? The problem with Brooklyn, as it relates to Kevin Duran, is he wasn't there very long. He wasn't there very long. And it was very tumultuous when he was there. There was a lot going on with the organization. And to be fair, the expectations were different. The expectations for KD and Kyrie. And then you add James Harden to the mix and Steve Nash is your coach. I mean, that was championship robust. We would talk about that on the pod.

And in Portland, I think their fan base realizes that while Dame was brilliant in his time, there weren't many teams that if you're being real were built to really win championships. So the fact that he didn't or he didn't get you close to it, and he didn't make a finals, like you can't really just point to Dane. There were a lot of things that went on with that, and he was great. So there were two completely different scenarios,

but I think if KD had been in Brooklyn for any extended period of time and had played through the adversity and didn't wind up winning a championship, but had been theirs for a longer period of time, I think they would have celebrated him in a more kind of, unanimous way. It's interesting because I mean, you're right in all of those

things that you said. It felt like the difference between, you know, Dame's exit last summer versus Kevin's exit two summers ago was the fact that, you know, it seemed like with Dame, Portland was like, we get it.

You tried. I understand. You know, it's time for you to go on. You're never going to win a title here. It was almost like, I'm sure there were podcast even for us where we were like, yo, Dame, please leave. Like, it's, it's time to go. Like, it's, it's time to go. It's, it's run its course.

Whereas Kevin was, yeah, I'm here. I'll bring some people, I'll bring some people along. But there wasn't that connection, you know, there just wasn't that connection to that region at all. And a lot of that has to do with also, you know, just being, just being quite frank, the nets just don't matter as much in New York as, you know, they even mattered nationally to us. So it would have taken a longer time, I think, for, you know, Katie to just make an imprint on that, on that organization and roster and city, right? Like, even if he was with the Knicks for four years, that would have been way more dissected. It would have been, it would have been a lot more of a

connection to that city than if it was in Brooklyn, right? But it was just interesting. to just to see that. And also like, I remember I asked Kevin one of the, I think was last year or maybe two years ago, just one, I think I asked him when I saw him in Brooklyn like, where do you belong? Right. And he said, one of the things he said was I belong to all the organizations that I've been a part of, you know, the Golden State, the O KCs, the Brooklyn. They all should retire my jersey and all these things. And I don't think that that's, I don't think that that's, that's something that, you know, maybe wistful thinking. And but what is it, what is it when you see, right? I feel you, right? I mean, I love Kev, but. And mind you, he thought that he was, or at least he said that he was going to stay there a few more years. Like that was the first year in his deal. When someone is drafted by an organization, that fan base connects to you in a way that they may not if you weren't drafted there.

But that's not always the case. I think it's more when you, when that fan base can grow up with you. So even if you came to a franchise and you weren't drafted there, but they're a part of your ascension in the kind of stardom and into achievement. When they've watched you kind of come from wherever you started, and they've been a part of the journey to get to the top. And I think they connect with you in a way that it's hard for them to connect to a player that comes there for a quick stint, is already a superstar.

Might play as hard out and be really good, but then you don't really win the chip there. It's really hard for them to connect to you in that way. Where if you had been there, that's why I say he's a, for me, he connects with Oklahoma City. Like,

even he didn't win a championship there, that's, that's where he came up. That's where he rose to, you know, Kevin Durant's status, won MVP, and so on and so forth.

So, like, it's an interesting thing because he won championships in Golden State and maybe he will do the same in Phoenix one day, but for me, he's a, he's an OKC Thunder.

It's funny because he don't even talk about OKC like that, if at all. It's always, even the comments that he made about being a goat, the warriors were like in all of those. Like he always brings them up for whatever reason. Maybe he has a bigger connection to go to state than OKC and all these things. But I think even in this player empowerment era, right, where, and I think it's getting to its tail in, but because you have like the guys like on the back end right now, like Luca, who I feel like is going to be in Dallas, it seems like forever, right? or even Jha, just a connection to that city. I feel like he'll be in Memphis forever, at least I hope that.

But I think the consequence you get when your title hopping, where your team hopping for a title, is that you don't get that love that you think that you deserve. And you don't, you know, you probably say statements like, I'm going to get my jersey retired in Brooklyn, and that's really premature. It's going to be interesting to see this the next few generation and how they do it.

But like, what is the balance you think in a perfect world that a player has to have when, you know, they want that connection with a city and they don't necessarily. But they also want a title. They also want more than they also want individual success and team success. What is the balance that they have to strike when they want both things simultaneously? It's very difficult to do that. You know, some people are blessed to come in and have the organization. that they go to be competent and have capital in a way that they can execute a plan that fits with your window as a player to be able to bring championships.

Other guys aren't as lucky, right? And so there is a delicate balance in that. And sometimes you have to prioritize, you know, what do I want? Do I want to be known as a guy who stays in said place for my entire career or are championships more important? Or, you know, is financial security more important? platform to maybe step out of said role and therefore achieve more financial security. Is that more important?

And so it's a balance in a career, right? Where we're talking about someone's career and trying to figure out, you know, what's best for you. You know, like a guy like you, Donis Haslam, for example, he achieves all of it. Do you know what I mean? Like the financial success was there, the identity as a heat player, Jersey retired, won championships. Like it's all, but you were blessed with the greater. From Miami.

Well, yeah, and from Miami. Like that, you, you achieve something very rare, and you were blessed to find an organization that was very capable. And so I don't have the right, the right answer to what the balance is. I think it's, it's not a universal thing. It's kind of case by case, like what people put stock in. And, you know, it's just, I've always said, it's one of those things for me that I wish had happened in my career.

I don't have a ton of regrets or wish. is. I voiced a few of them, but one of them was that I was claimable as a son or a jazz or a, you know, sixer. And I think to some degree, there's small pockets of those fan bases that would identify me as one of the or the other, but not, not overall. Not, you know what I mean? Like, that's not. Do you fear that you're for the streets, Roger? No, I mean, look, but I wasn't that, I wasn't that level of player to be, to be fair, right? And so that's okay. But those guys who are a tier above me and are those type of players, you know, it's interesting.

Like you, Sean Marion, for example, like Sean Marion in front of the show, a good friend of mine. I mean, a son drafted by the sons, multiple all-star appearances as a son. Western Conference Finals as a son. They're through multiple regimes and multiple, like, stars playing alongside him. And then winds up going to Dallas and winning championships in Dallas. And then he's in Miami and he's in Cleveland. Like so none of that happened for him in Phoenix. He was able to go, you know, do that.

But I think he identifies as a son at the end of the day. And I think the sons claim him in a way that those other organizations wouldn't. And so it's really not even about like what you identify as. I mean, personally it is. But but in terms of what the fan identifies you as, they have the voice, do they claim you? And I think the sons claim tricks because they grew up with tricks. They watch tricks come in from UNLV. they were part of giving him the nickname.

They went on the ride with him, even though he won his championship somewhere else. How did it feel real quick? Do you think, how did it feel for Phoenix to see like tricks won a championship as a math? Because that's weird. Like that was y'all rival. Y'all went to war with the maps, right?

That's like you went into title with the, with the Spurs after all the years with the Sons. You know what I mean? That's bittersweet for them, I'm sure. I mean, I have to imagine it's bittersweet. Like, on one hand, I'm telling you they love Tricks. Tricks is theirs. Tricks was a representation of the valley.

And so you'll always love and have respect and cheer for him in some capacity. But he's winning him with like one of your biggest rivals. It's got to be a difficult pill to swallow. But ultimately, I think people can respect that when Tricks was there, he laid it all out on the line every time. And so Tricks, I think, for a while, might not have really loved the sons, the way a son. fan loved tricks because of the way it went down at the end there. He takes a lot of shit to heart too. He takes a lot of things to heart.

That's what makes him who he is. But the way it went down at the end of that when we still felt like we were in a good window of time. And certainly him, Steve and Amari, like the pieces, you know, I was interchangeable. Some of the pieces around the perimeter were, but those three, I think there was still a lot of tread on that trio. And, you know, they made that move. And he was the one that moved.

I don't know that he identified as a son for a long time. I think he was probably a little salty if you asked him about that. But ultimately, when you grow up in a place and they watch you rise to a level of stardom and you've come through their system doing that, that's who you are, man. That was this morning I got up a little early and I was just watching just the response from Portland to Dame. And it was interesting. They let out the whole red carpet, not just the Blazers, but like Adidas too, because

Adidas has a campus now in Portland. And they unveiled like the Damiener. a little building, right? And it just felt like a huge rollout for Dame to celebrate the man, right? And even like, he had like a pregame press conference, which is kind of unheard of for like a star player on the other team to have a pregame, like even if he's returning. He talked for 20 minutes to the local media and then talked after the game, right? So there was just this ground swell support from the organization in the city.

And I remember a couple years ago to like connect us to Kevin. You know, I asked him just about, like, I asked him that question of, you know, it just seems like, you know, you, I'm paraphrasing my questioning, but where do you belong? And he said he belonged to all these different places. And OKC has to retire as Jersey and Golden State has to. And Brooklyn, which you make a face towards. And immediately after the story was published, the one on Kevin, Sam Presti was seen saying, hey, we welcome back everybody. that was a thunder. Once a thunder, always a thunder at a team banquet. How important is that to have a good relationship with the faces of your franchises, no matter what kind of franchise

you have, but specifically when you're on the level of a dame and a KD and a LeBron is another person, you know, stuff, all these types of people, how important is it to have a line of communication with these people and also just a bridge to these all-time greats? They're your ambassadors, man. Like, it's, it's huge. I mean, they're your connection to a lot of things, to a fan base, to people's, to people's memory banks. You know, like, you know, different fans would connect to different grates because they were theirs in their era and their window of their super fandom. And so I think it's huge for organizations to at least extend the invitation and try to be on, you know, really good terms with their future grades.

Now, it's not always reciprocated. I think sometimes, again, the way your tenure somewhere ends will have an impact on what that relationship is like for a while. But time heals all wounds and certainly over the course of that, you know, you do what you can to repair the relationship and welcome them back and let them know that it wasn't forgotten. Like this isn't a chapter of history. We're going to like black out. Man, this happened and we respect it and we love you for it. And I think that's a great way to connect. Those guys are your ambassadors.

I would just say this, and maybe I'm going backwards in the conversation, but I want to, it's a weird thing with KD. I don't know him really well. I mean, I know him to dab him up and shoot the shit just a little bit, but I don't know him great. But he doesn't seem to connect with the fan base in a way that Dane connected with the fan base in Portland. I don't have the answer as to why that is. I don't think there's any magic connection pill. And it could just be the length of time that Dame was in one place versus Kevin kind of moving around a little bit.

It's certainly got nothing to do with ability or what kind of human being you are or anything like that in terms of whether you're a good person or not. But some people just are more open to being vulnerable in a way that connects them, you know? I think just being around him, just like covering him and stuff, I think the biggest thing is, I think Golden State after that, he started like building a wall up just from him and the cities that he's in. I think that that was more of the case, right? where like he was, I don't know like his community efforts or anything like that.

I just know just even just seeing him, even in Brooklyn. And also you got to also think like a pandemic, he couldn't wasn't able to like touch the people. Oh, sure. Certainly. Those are factors. Yeah. But he did, he had, he was a little bit more closed off. I think after Golden State.

And I'm curious to see like how he is in Phoenix even more. I've only seen him once, but that was early. But I will say that like, and OKC, you know, he was, I think that was the biggest. I think that was the biggest example of him being in the community. I think even after the tornadoes, he was out there. I think once he left there, it was a bit different in how he was in the community. And that's a huge step when you are talking about relationships to organizations and cities. Well, absolutely.

That's what I'm saying is being open in a way that people can see your vulnerability at times, right? And you can, you know, that's important for humanizing athletes. And we put them on pedestals and they're superheroes and stuff like that. but at the end of the day, you connect with someone who you can see their humanity sometimes, right? And it's not always that vision of this, you know, immortal being. And so, you know, interestingly that you said that, I think Phoenix is a lot like OKC in that the market itself is easy to be a star in. And I don't, I shouldn't say easy, right? And again, I'm saying it from being adjacent to a star.

I was not the star, but it's not a New York. It's not a Brooklyn. It's not in L.A. It's not a San Francisco. It's a more chill kind of vibe. Do you know what I mean? Like the town itself lends itself to... You can hide in Phoenix.

Blending in. Yeah, you can blend in and just go about your business in a way that you can't in other places. And so it will be interesting to see, you know, how a personality like KD can maneuver and whether he connects to them in a way that he may not have in other places. And also, like, I think Phoenix has this, balance and I've been to fucking Phoenix, I think, just so many times over the last three years.

It's like every spring go to Phoenix. But what I've noticed is Phoenix, they have like a balance of that, what you say of just treating their stars well, but also like loving them to death. Like this, you guys are just so passionate just about your stars and your teams. I think it's just, I really think the suns are a sleeping giant when it comes to just down the line. And I'm here to see what Matt Isbia does with this, this. this new regime.

But one of the things that I think he's doing really well is he's bringing you guys back. You know, he's, he's inviting you guys back. You know, Steve is, uh, Nash is an integral part of just bringing people back and just being around and just going to games. You know, you now you go to Phoenix Sun's games. You see Steve Nash courtside, you know? Like that wouldn't have happened three, four years ago, even after he was retired. They just wouldn't.

And so it's good to see that. One other thing is like, I see that a lot. we talked about KD and, you know, just a connection to a city, like or lack of late in his career. I've seen it a lot with LeBron in L.A. right now, you know, like, just he's, he's LeBron and he just happens to play for the Lakers, right? And I think a lot of that has to do with just the separation of the player. And not to say he hasn't had moments as a Laker. He won a title there. He has had, he has been that.

But just from just the, just seeing, like. his impact around the city. It's just not as felt as someone that you would want to see as a Laker. And I don't feel like he's opened up in the same way as like the other people in that organization, you know, in all these ways. And I think that that might hurt him late in his career or late, like when he wants to come back. You know, he's not going to be, he's always going to be a Laker, but he's just not going to be as loved as maybe he would want it to be in a place because he hasn't opened up in a city

like that. You know, the Lakers are kind of one of those franchises that may be more, used to the star coming there at a point in his career to win more championships and respecting that. They may be positioned better as a fan base to appreciate that than other fan bases because it happens, right? It's a destination. People want to go to L.A. to play. It's happened before. So I think that he's better positioned with that fan base to be able to do that than most other ones. I do think, though, that something that I have been saying, the whole pod goes into like, Kobe, you're never going to be Kobe there. You're never going to be Magic there.

Those dudes were Lakers from the start. You know, they grew up. People watched them, you know, ascend to the throne. They don't know them in any of the uniform. Right. So, like, they're theirs. I would also say, you know, interestingly, what goes into it is like where you are as a person in your personal life when you get there. How much time you have to do that.

LeBron. LeBron has, man, kids, man. Like, he's watching Brony Hoop. He's a part of that. He's with Brony on the circuit. Now it's Bryce. And he's up. to be around with that and be at his games and you know you got surrey and and she's got stuff going

on forgive me i don't know exactly what she got going on but i'm sure he's ever he's present at all of that stuff and so you're you're just at a different point like he's got business ventures that he's probably handling and flying around taking meetings and it just doesn't afford you the same amount of time to be accessible to that community yeah because he's at a different point in in not only career but in life but again you got one shit if you could figure out a way to get a second chip. He'll be a Laker. Hey, I'm not going to lie. He's a Laker.

But I feel what you're saying, just like a Laker, like a Laker. Yeah. Yeah, let him get another one though. He's throwing sublimbs. He's trying to get one. It's that time of year right now. LeBron's throwing sublimbs. Roger. When it's, when you've been, you've been during a round sub-tweet, LeBron.

When LeBron send him sub-tweets and sublimin, is it tense in the lot in the, in the locker room and the franchise? Like, what is it like? when Lebranthos emblems. That can be very unsettling. That can be very unsettling. You look at your phone like, fuck! There's a level of nervousness

that's coursing through the arteries of the building when that's happening. Everyone trying to fit. What's he talking about? What's he talking about? I mean, who's he talking about? What direction should we be looking in? What can we do?

Like, that's what it does, but that's what it's meant to do. I wish somebody asked him a question about his tweets. Like, we're at the time now, which is in life where we know what the game is he knows what the game is. Just be like, hey, bro, why you do that? I see you do it, why you do it?

Fuck. What you're trying to say? What exactly are you trying to say, LeBron? Christian Wood's like, you're trying to trade me, bro? Yeah. Say it. They say it. He's like, okay, I'm trying to trade you.

We'll see. I don't know. It's going to be fun. It's going to be interesting. Let's take a quick break. I want to get Roger's opinion on something pertinent in the league. Vandul's putting the ball in your court for the rest of the NBA season. because right now new customers get $200 in bonus bets with any winning $5 bet.

That's $200 if your bet wins. So tonight, my bets, Pacers, Knicks. I'm going to take the over. I think there are going to be a lot of points scored in that. And Boston, minus 11 and a half against the Lakers, I think I'm going to take the Lakers with the points. So visit Fanduel.com slash ringer MBA and make your first bet a layup. Van Duel, official sports book partner of the NBA. Must be 21 plus and president select states.

gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit the ringer.com slash RG. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-witrable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook. Fandul.com. All right. We didn't get a chance to go down the rundown with Raja. So we're just going to go.

Raj is the 65 game rule. Has gotten a lot of scrutiny, which we kind of thought it was. feel like we were going to have another pot. I was waiting to just like, I was waiting to have a discussion on this, probably waited too long. I was probably like a couple weeks ago. I was like, yeah, what do we think about this? How is it going to affect things? But now we're at a fever pitch. We've hit a crescendo. Joel Embed, who is injured, has an injured knee, who has had an injured knee for the last few weeks. It took, kept him out of the game against the nuggets because he said he couldn't jump. But,

he's up against a 65 game threshold. It's only February. He only has like, I think, five games to miss before he misses out on eligibility for the MVP, playing really well, has great stats. Golden State, in Golden State, he re-injured that knee re-agrified the knee injury. And I was at the game, Roger. It didn't look great. He's not playing tonight or whatever against Utah.

He's going back to Philly to get that reevaluated. I was at the game. It doesn't look like it's something that's going to, that's, that's going to just heal up really quickly. And by all intensive purposes, he's probably going to miss out on that MVP, right? And it's gotten a lot of scrutiny, the new league rule.

What is the balance that the, we always talk about balance on this podcast, what is the balance the NBA needs to both keep players on the floor while also respecting their injury history and making sure they're healthy for honestly the time that you actually need them, which is the playoffs. Because this injury from Embed has huge ramifications

if he's hurt for not just the MVP, but just like the sixth season in general. Players health and safety should always be a priority. And I don't think that the rules should be punitive in a way that what in some instance is a tyson dude to get out there and play through something that could be worse, just to make sure that they met the threshold. And people would say, well, who the hell would do that?

Like, well, you know, if you had a first team all-MBA ride and on it and you were up for an extension and it would allow you to get the supermax, you know, I forgive my math and I don't know the CBA, but that's a lot of millions of dollars. Like, you might do that. Do you know what I mean? Even it might not be about a championship at that point. It might be just about being eligible for a contract.

And so I don't think that the rules, should be punitive in that way because the only thing that heals some of these injuries is time. You know, I mean, it's not the only thing,

but one of the major factors in healing some of these, you know, lingering injuries, something like, you know, if Joel and B doesn't have any real terrible

structural damage, but there's just swelling in the knee and he can't get it out. Well, you know, you can put a syringe in there and pull out whatever fluid you want, but the knee tells you

when you're able to get back out there. It's going to let you know. Now, the problem is that, that, you know, the rest, you know, resting guys just because was abused. This isn't a player. I've said this isn't a player issue. This is a front office ownership medical staff issue. That's who this was created by. It wasn't created by the players not playing.

So putting in the rules to penalize the players and have them maybe have to forfeit, you know, honors and awards. and therefore maybe have to take less of a salary because of that, just because they were injured, like playing, you know, earnestly, trying to chase the championship and just having a freak injury. Like, I don't think that's fair. I don't have the right answer. But I'll tell you, like, it has to be in place because people were just completely abusing the, you know, the rest situation.

Just, hey, man, we're not going to play a guy, scratch him for a finger. It's a national TV game. You're trying to sell TV rights and streaming rights. people are paying flex pricing on tickets now. So instead of paying, I don't even know what an NBA ticket costs now, but let's say it's $100 bucks regularly.

But I got Wemby coming into town. I paid $450 for the fucking ticket. And Wemby ain't playing because he got a toenail? Yeah. Like that was abused. Because like here's another thing, man. Like this is just like, well people, I think league people and these people,

I think we've gotten away from this in general. But I remember in it, you were a kid once around. it was a long, long time ago. But like when you were a kid, and I know this when I was a kid, like you'd get to schedule. You see when your favorite teams are coming and you get to schedule in August, September. You see when your favorite team, like my case, it was Kobe when he was coming to town. That might be, it could be like we were in a base.

So it was like maybe opening night one of these years or maybe like in January or something. You get the tickets right there, right? Because that's the cheapest it's going to be. And then, like, I'd be so pissed if like he just did. didn't play, right? Like, if he just did not do it. Like, LeBron, for instance, is coming to, went to Atlanta the other week. And LeBron is typically, he wants to play for most of the time, right? Like, he'll play if he can do it. But, like, course side tickets was going like for 10 G's. Imagine if you pay 10 G's a ticket to go see LeBron, right? And up in the lead up, he's like,

nah, I'm cool. I'm chilling. Well, well, look, here's the deal. I'd be, I'd be furious, number one, to answer your question. I'd be furious. I'd be furious. If it wasn't like really injured, like, like, he wasn't really injured. If he was just like, you know, but what I'm saying to you is that's not, look, I've been game time decision. This is as earnest and genuine as I can be game time decision out there warming up to the naked eye. It would probably look like I could play because I just warmed up. If you were there when I got off that second bus and I went out there and got my warm up, you'd be like, he looked fine. But I'm saying to the trainer like, man, I feel that pull.

I know I'm like 75% But if I make the wrong move and I am like just out there kind of You know off schedule and I make some kind of spontaneous move and I'm not guarding Against pulling that groin again I'm gonna pull it and now I'm back three weeks That happens while I would still be furious that my 10,000 per seat was blown to see LeBron If he had a situation like that that's just the price of doing business right like I respect it got to respect it. The one I don't like,

so what I'm saying is, again, this isn't a player. LeBron doesn't do that. LeBron doesn't do that right before a game, unless it's a real, hey, man, this doesn't feel, this doesn't feel good. What started happening,

I've told this story before, what started happening was medical staffs and data became so dialed into having an athlete at his optimum performance level and the workload that an athlete has. And at what point,

that athlete would eventually break down, that they were able to furnish front offices with the data in a way that would suggest that Logan has to take these nights off. And so when that started becoming accessible, people started telling players, hey, you're sitting out. Hey, you're sitting out.

Now, the genesis of it could have been pop just being ahead of the curve and saying, we're going to rest guys, we're going to rest guys. It's more important to win championships. We're going to rest them. But by the time I got to Cleveland, I was telling LeBron James

from David Griffin, Hey, you're going to take, we're on the plane. LeBron, we're going to Indiana. LeBron doesn't have any, like, LeBron doesn't know that he's not playing tomorrow night. It's a back-to-back. I remember it vividly. LeBron's on the plane thinking he's going to play in Indiana.

I get a call as I'm sitting there. We're about to take off. He's like, hey, man, we don't think it's a good idea that LeBron, you know, plays tomorrow night in Indiana. He's got to take a night off. You know, he had a heavy workload. Let him know that he won't be playing tomorrow. What is his response to that?

Check, got it. I mean, he's a professional. So, like, yeah, I got it. Cool. No problem. That's the culture that we have created now. That's what it is, right? And so, like, way too often we aim our target at players, like it's a player saying,

hey, man, I'm chilling, dog. I'm making whatever amount of millions. I don't want to play tonight. I'm not saying that's not the case sometimes for, you know, some, you know, some people have more integrity than others, right? But a lot of players want to play. They understand the contract. They understand what they're there to do.

Part of that is winning championships and balancing that and health can be difficult at times. but way more often than not, it's an organizational decision. That's coming from the medical staff. That's coming from the front office, sitting down and collaborating with the medical staff and then running that up, you know, the pertinent flagpoles and getting a sign off

that, yeah, we're going to sit him here, here, here, here, and here. It's, so in essence, in your opinion, the players are getting scapegoated in this whole, like, kind of scenario, right? Like, they're the ones that are getting, like, even with Joelle and B, this is why it's lack or at least like 65 games is

is tough like it's just an arbitrary number right like also it I think we're going to get into a just for this alone like we can do I don't think we need the the 65 game threshold

necessarily there are other measures where you can be like yo he needs to be like he needs to at least show proof that he is actually injured for we can do this right but there has to be more nuanced this in my opinion, right? Because

I don't, like, it was, it was good to see Joelle play in person earlier this, earlier this week, but like, I don't want to see a hobbled. I don't want to see, he was he looked awful, bro. He couldn't even get off the floor. He was four of 16, like,

midway through the third, right? Like, he was visibly hobbled. I don't want to see that shit. And I know, like, the consumer doesn't want to see that. But that's what you're going to end up getting even more as the as this continues to go. And I'm sure that the NBA is looking into this.

And I'm sure there's going to be some changes. They have to. Because you're going to shoot yourself in the foot doing that, eventually, the NBA, that is. Because one of these dudes is going to do what Joel NB did. It's going to say, hey, man, look, this is way too important to my family's legacy. I've got, I've got this on the line. I got to get these 65 games. He's going to run his ass out there, slightly injured or impaired, let's say, or at minimum,

you know, not feeling great and he's going to get substantially hurt because of it. And then you've shot yourself into foot. Or on another level, right? Like you got the MVP, right? Which is like the threshold or whatever, right? Say if like fucking Joelle and Bid, which

right now, I'd say he's probably the frontrunner to MVP, say if he's like been the frontrunner all season, but he played 64 games. That's when you tell me you'll give it to the second place person. That's whack as fuck. That's so weak. Like that's... And then you're going to have... Like, think about it like if like all

if there was an MVP case right and all four candidates played 64 games and you just gave it to somebody that had no consequence. And there was a huge gap between four and five right? Like you're saying there's four people in tier one and everyone else is tier three and none of them can get it. And none of them can get it.

Roger Bell walks away with a fucking MVP. Rosambeil's a borderline. He average 19 and 5 on a contract year but he somehow got MVP. 75% of the league was disqualified, and here I sit. Yes, sir. Hey, I know this, though.

You get the MVP. You're taking that in negotiations in that contract here, though. I was fucking MVP. I was fucking an MVP. Not just figuratively, but the trophy's going to the table with us. Like, what's up? Straight. What's up?

But that's going to be whack, though. Like, there needs to be, and I'm sure that there is a way to do both, right? Like, you have to, I think that there's ways to say on a game by game basis, without the threshold of 65 games, it's on a game by game basis. You just have to show more proof that, hey, this dude is seriously injured. Because I saw Joelle and Chase in her, that dude was hobbling. He was, I didn't want to watch him play basketball. Get his ass off the floor. I didn't see the warm-ups. But it's funny that you say that because I watched the first five plays of him and had already made that

assessment. Like, I didn't know the backstory because I kind of, you know, I'm flying around and shit going on. I sit down on a couch. I just tap into the game. So I didn't even know that he was, that he was hurt. But my eyes told me immediately, like, though, he's, He doesn't look good. That first shot. Do you remember the first shot at that game that he shot? I was like, oh, what? Hmm, that doesn't look good.

If the man says he can't jump, believe him. Yeah, straight up. Right. But I don't even know how you do that, Logan. This is a long conversation. Like, you got independent doctors. There's got to be all kind of shit involved when you're talking about proof of injury. Like, I don't even know how you do that.

Figure it out because we're in a, because Joel's not getting to VP this year. It's not going to happen. Because the rules of the rule. rules right now. He's not going to get it. And that's going to be a shame. Right. And also we're in February, more players can like, you know, get because I've said this time and time again, the MVP is not a matter of stats. It is a matter of narrative. And what your narrative is throughout that season and what us, because you know, as writers, we love a good story. Whatever a good story is, if we can sell that story as an MVP, that's what we're going to get. It's more than that than

stats we don't really care about as voters. And I'm not a voter yet, but like we care. We don't care about the stats necessarily. We care about the narrative and why this person should get it and how we can convince someone that this person deserves this award and a whole paragraph worth of storytelling. Honestly what it is. Right. And so we can get to that point with another player because it's that early. But as the rural stand now, in about a week or so, Joelle's probably not going to even be eligible to get it.

And that's a shame. And that's a shame. We'll see what happens. Anything else, Raj, anything else that's getting on your nerves in the NBA right now? Anything you want to just get off your chest? Are you pissed off about anything? Nope. Nope.

I think I'm in a good place right now. Wow. That's really. Wow. It's really wholesome of you. I'm approaching things more from a positive lens. now. I don't believe that. I just believe you just don't have anything. It could be that, too. It could be that. I don't know. I choose, in my positivity,

I choose to see it the other way, sir, so. Okay, we'll see. I'll give it time. I think you have, I think you can do it. How long will this last? I don't know. It's Thursday. Roger has to get the hell out of here. But first, we have a little segment that we like to do called Rowan of the week. Roger, you can go first because I have no idea who I'm going to pick at this very moment in time, was your real one of the world. Well, it's still football season, right? It is. It's still football season. And so, you know, I watched all year long. And this one was bittersweet for me because, you know, I do pull for Lamar Jackson. He's from right up the street. Like, I'm a, I'm a big fan. Brown County. Yeah. I'm a big fan of Lamar's. But Patrick Mahomes is my real one of the week. And the reason why is because he's just fucking great, man. This year was a show. struggle for the chiefs. It was a struggle.

Like they had issues across the board. Pat had his own issues. The receiving corps had their issues. There was a lot of things. The Swifties had their issues. Yeah, there's a lot going on there, right? And it looked like of all the years to get Kansas City that this was the year. They were ripe for the taking, especially, you know, in that AFC, it still remains to be seen in the Super Bowl.

But someone else should have probably come out of there, except Kansas City has Patrick Mahomes. And he just does what he does. And it might not always look the same. Like he is just brilliant in that sometimes it's fireworks and left-handed passes and no looks and scrambling and just flipping it up the sideline. Sometimes it looks flashy like that.

And sometimes it's surgical and protect the hell out of the football and we beat you. And he can just give it to you how you want it. And for that reason, real one of the week. That's what's up, man. Now, I will like to note that Mahomes did lose to the Oakland, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Raiders on Christmas Day, but you know, hey, Rashid Wallace, I don't know if you listening to this play,

but she was talking a lot of shit when we had you on the program about Chiefs, and I'm sure you're going to win a championship. But, hey, you didn't have a good Christmas. You didn't have a good football Christmas. I think he's going to have the last laugh, though, Logan. I mean, I know. You take your Christmas Day, Miracle, if you want it. That's fine.

I am going to take it. That's all I got. That's all I got. You know what? I'm going to give it to Eminem. Because what he did, even in defeat, he went to the bay and he flipped off a lot of Niners fans. And that's, that was like Christmas to be. It was like a second Christmas.

Well, there you go. Forever. Two Christmas miracles. Yeah, yeah, you know. And, you know, it's such, it's such, I don't even, as a Raider fan, it's just tough. The Super Bowl's tough, man. That's all I have to say because one of either the Niners or Pat Mahomes is going to win in our building. Like, that's tough.

That's tough. That's tough. That's tough. So, I mean, I'm just going to give, you know, because of how I feel about that, just going to give it to Eminem because he embodied what I felt about all that, given a double bird to those fans. Double bird to the fans while you're there and there's, that's a real. That's a real. You can only do that, though, in San Francisco or Santa Clara because there's a lot of fan bases would not allow that shit. Yeah, you ain't doing that in Philly. Security or no.

Security or not. You're not doing that in Oakland, you know, back in the Coliseum. You're not going to do that there. You could do that in Levi's because not the toughest fan base. I'm getting on my shit because I have nothing left. I have nothing left. So I'll tell my Fillmore Niners fans, you know, I'm on my Bayview Hunter's Point. I'm not talking about you.

Talk about the wine and cheese variety that we have in the Silicon Valley. You walk in who you all are. You walk those streets every day, bro. You better watch out. Walking a thin line. I'm going to be all right. It's all good.

All right. All right. A little programming note. We only have, I'm going to be on the road next week. So we only have one, uh, Rewans. Um, motherfucking Mondays, um, live from the East Coast.

Really excited about that. Love East Coast real ones because I, I get to live a little bit of Raj's life where, you know, he has a whole day gone by before he even has to do the pod. Fresh. fresh as opposed to like I'm literally waking up on the West Coast literally waking up as I'm doing this pod. So, you know, next week, only motherfucking Mondays with Howard motherfucking back. Make sure that you tap into our mailback every Monday. So tap in right now, as you're hearing it right now, ruins mailbag at gmail.com.

Ask me and Raja anything. Howard, too. and Howard. Make sure that you you send in your questions for us to answer. And yeah, that's all I got right now. We have 47 minutes.

I stretched this far away. Raj's just literally leaving. He's not, he hasn't even sent in the sound. He's literally leaving the pod right now. So got to go. Bye. Bye.

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