The Ringer NBA Show - Dame Lillard vs. Neil Olshey, NBA Quarter-Season Awards | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 8, 2021

Justin, Rob, and Wos dive into rumors and reports following former general manager Neil Olshey's firing by the Portland Trail Blazers (03:00). Later, the guys give out awards for the first quarter of the season, including Rookie of the Year, MVP, Most Improved, and more (25:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Production Assistant: Jonathan Kermah Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Top MMA voices, Ariel Hwani, Chuck Mindenhall, and Pizzie Carroll are live on the Spotify Greenroom app for every major MMA card with the Ringer MMA show. Hear the guys react to Wayans in real time and find out what they think of the fights the moment the final card ends. Plus, when breaking MMA news happens, they'll be live to talk to you about it. And if you miss the Green Room show, you can hear it as a podcast anytime on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. So welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier. Joining me today, as always. As always.

Big Wise, Rob Mahoney. Uh, Waz, how would you feel if I showed up to this podcast checking in at 330 pounds? Would you be concerned? I would be extremely concerned because I expect you to pick up the slack, put us on your back, carry the team. So if you showed up out of shape and flabby like Larry Holmes, yeah, that would be a slight problem. You do seem like a rehab on company time kind of guy, though, Justin. That's true. Play myself into shape over the course of the season.

We're obviously talking about Zion Williams and new reports, if you can call them that, showing up to camp, I believe it was, at a robust 330 pounds. I have to say, though, during the pandemic, I did get it above my playing weight. So I am still technically playing myself under shape here. It just gets harder as you get older. Zion's like what, like 21? Maybe this shouldn't be a concern. Who among us during the pandemic has not added a couple here and there, you know? It's true.

It's true. All right. on today's docket, we are going to get into our quarter season awards. It's a little over the quarter mark of the season, but who cares? We'll just go along with it. So that will be on the back end in the podcast. But first, the news that's sweeping over the land yet again. I feel like we were due a new Damien Lillard turn in the saga. And here we are, Neil O'Shea has been fired after an investigation into the workplace over in Portland. And then just bombs dropping all over the place. I think the biggest one from Adrian Wojernowski suggesting that

Dame has basically been trying to leverage things behind the scenes. You know, he wants an extension on top of the very gaudy extension he already got that would take him. I believe there was age 36 season making the most, I believe, of all time. And I think the most interesting part of this was the reaction to this, both from Dame and people in Dame's camp about like what a side swipe this was from Neil O'Shea. So my question to you was, was this, was this, type of story, in bounds, out of bounds? What do you think? It's part for the course for this part of the league, right? Anonymous GM, anonymous this,

throw a stone and hide your hand. That's what these cats do on a day-to-day basis. I will say for Dame specifically, when he wanted to go on the record, he's kind of, you know, Chris Haynes has been as Howard Coasell. Like, he's kind of spoken his mind on the record about, a myriad of things. And the one thing he's never done is throw Neil Olshey risk averse ass, weak-ass rasta building ass under the bus. Not one time in his entire tenure did Dame Lillard put whispers out there.

Like, maybe Olshe should be doing this. We never heard nothing about Olshe and the shoddy job that he's doing in Portland. We never heard about the fact that nobody liked his ass. in Portland. Nobody questioned some of his draft picks, some of his trade decisions, some of his non-trade decisions, most importantly.

Like, nobody questioned him publicly. I never saw people. I'm talking, you know, because this is the thing. We know the media who are those, quote-unquote, tapped in media people. And I say that with heavy quotations,

basically white guys who talk to management. You ain't never heard a single bad thing about Neil O'Shea. Okay? ever. And so you get fired and the first thing you want to do is blame Dame Lillard.

And my favorite part about it, Justin, is the talking out of both sides of your mouth. Dame wanted to leverage a trade, but he couldn't because he had too much years on his contract. Dame wants a contract extension. Right. Yeah, the audacity of Damian Lillard

wanting to extend with the Portland Trailblazers. Unbelievable. I'm aghast. Unbelievable. I'll say this, though. It was a weird move for Al-Shea if he had aspirations of ever becoming a GM in this league, because ultimately, if you are a GM, the goal is to get star-level players and your relationship with star-level players

is probably the most important thing that you can do, especially nowadays when it seems like just beckoning guys to come to your team is most of the job. So it is a weird approach to be so transparently throwing a guy like Dame under the bus. Having said that, do we think like this stuff isn't true that they're reporting? And I don't blame Dame for asking for these things, but I think it is a change in the narrative of what we had we had thought because dame has been projecting like oh i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna hold strong here i'm i'm gonna like soldier on and get through this when it sounds like he's actually saying well let's this isn't working let's rebuild around me and just pay me as much as possible that always seemed like the trajectory didn't it like

it's either you trade damian lillard or you give him lots of money like those are the only two options on the table really if if you want to keep him even if you wanted this current core, you would have to pay him a lot of money to retain it at some point. So that's why, like, the framing of this report I thought was interesting. And I couldn't really understand why Dame was the villain for wanting a contract. Oh, you couldn't understand that, huh, Rob? No. I couldn't understand it. Because I do think it was slightly different where it seemed like Dame was projecting, I'm here, and I'm going to stick this out with this core, et cetera. And it did sound like based on the reporting, which again, like we're trusting the reporting in this

situation, your mileage might vary there. Like, he was trying to maybe trade C.J. McCollum for Ben Simmons and a bunch of picks. So I don't know. I think that, I think it's a little bit different than what perhaps we were talking about a couple months ago. That's all. Let me ask you guys something. Do you or any person whose opinions you respect on the game believe that the Portland Trailblazers should ride the course with Dame and C.J. McCollum. Matter of fact, let's flip it.

Have you not thought this for four years that this shit is never going to work? Are you fucking shitting me? Like, it's obvious. There's nobody with serious opinions about the Portland Trailblazers who thinks, not a Dame and CJ shit, that merit is just keeping it going.

We're not talking about Golden State brass saying, let's wait for Clay Thompson to come back. Let's see what him and Steph Curry could do with Jemar Green and the core and Steve Kerr. Let's see what that could do. We're talking about one fluke conference finals, 44 wins a year for six damn years.

Yeah, yeah, this is amazing. This is awesome. Pat me on the back for doing this. And again, it's not like there was an opportunity to do something else. It's not that you, because I'm not one of those people who pooh-poo's what, you know, say the grit and grind Memphis Gris.

We're doing, right? Like 50 wins a year, conference finals, scaring the shit out of OKC, all of these kinds of things. Portland ain't never been that, ever. So to patch yourself on the back for the shit that you did in Portland, on the back of Dame Lillard's excellence, you're disgusting, Neil Olshe. Yeah, I would say I generally err on the side of giving Corps time as much as possible, because I think they can develop in ways you don't always expect. The bucks are probably case and point of that.

Like there's a universe in which Janice and Chris Middleton were separated three years ago. Did you expect C.J. McCollum to grow to be six, seven? That might be a slight complication. And that's, you know, what more do we really need to see from that combination? They've had nine seasons together. They've had seven seasons as real stakeholders together. I think this has been asked and answered as far as what Dame and CJ can be. Hold on.

It vary, most importantly. This is what's most important. Yesterday I'm on Twitter. I see Bill Orm of the Athletic, Lakers Beat Reporter. He was like, yo, or it was the day before. LeBron James was giving the chance to back Frank Vogel, and he deliberately chose not to. Not that he's getting him fired.

Not that he's getting him fired, but he deliberately chose not to. Has Dame Lillard ever done that to Neil Olshey bum ass. Never. The first second this dude is out of town, he's throwing Dame under the bus. Shows the lack of character. Sorry. Yeah, I don't know what Dame would have done under the scrutiny that I think LeBron constantly is. I think the fact that, like, Bill is reading into LeBron's non-response is a completely

different situation than a couple Portland beat writers who are usually pretty good, just like getting lamb-baseded by L'Haye on a regular basis. I don't blame Dane for having an opinion and expressing his opinion. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, especially if you're the star of the team, especially when you're getting regular meetings with Paul Allen before his passing. I guess the counter to that, if we're playing apologies for Neil L. Shea is like, are any of these ideas particularly good? Would they have actually changed the outcome where we are today of hiring Jason

kid over Chauncey Billups of trading for Ben Simmons dealing CJ and all these picks would have made a better situation. I don't think so. And so I think it's a little bit more of a mixed bag. Again, I think it's weird that the story came out in the way it did, but I kind of don't blame Olshe for at the very least wanting to put everything out there, put everything on the table. Hold on. Justin, hold on. Yeah. This is the first time in Dame Lillard's 10 years there of him trying to assert himself as far as roster management, doing the whole superstar play thing.

You got your chance. You failed, bro. Well, he did go to the owner. I don't want to hear about Neil O'Shea talking about while the moves he wanted. You had your chance for years. This shit sucks. Sorry.

You came this summer said, this is the most talent-rich roster we've ever constructed in the history of Portland. That was wild. Yeah. I don't think anything. And that was what the third time he said that? Yeah, to blame it all on the coaching staff and then to handpick your coach after all the drama

that ensued by that pick. And for that coach not to come through, if anything, to be worse is like it's a pretty damning thing. I think he deserved to be fire. Let's be clear here. But I don't know. I think it's a no-win situation. Yeah.

That's not even getting into whatever the results were from the investigation. into his workplace. Even just on the basketball merits, you know, it's less about one individual decision, oh, Olshey really screwed this up than it is, as Waz was saying, the longevity of you have all of this opportunity in time, and you've just been kind of spinning your wheels with variations.

Did that even come up in the Wodge piece? The part about him being investigation for workplace misconduct. Did that even come up? There was a passing mess. Yeah. It was always a pass. Oh, okay. Oh, okay.

Just I was just, because just in case people think that we're making this shit up about who's spoon feeding who information. I mean, if we're reading like the tea leaves, if we're poking behind the curtain a little bit, like I think the investigation like made it easy to fire him when there are a lot of reasons to fire him. Like I honestly don't know what,

because they haven't revealed any of the details of the investigation, like what beyond like just being mean to people he did. So it's a little foggy there. I think we should talk about just like Dames approach here overall because independent of like how old she feels about it and who he's talking to about it, I think it's like interesting because now it sounds like he faces a pretty interesting choice where it is like, do you want to stay put, make gobs of money and just rebuild and just hope that you can last into your prime and carry a new core to come to be competitive, to be competitive

in a way that you haven't been in a long time, or force a trade to a situation like a Sixers, Celtics, whoever you might throw out there. Like, if that was you, who, like, where would you lean? I mean, I think the Sixers are the best basketball situation in terms of winning a title. But that may not be entirely what he wants. Like, he wants the money. He wants the spotlight of being a lead guy in a way that playing with Joel and Bid might not allow. You can see a lot of motivations for Dame here that would lead him to want to stay and rebuild his way.

It's what it's always about with Stars is like, how do I succeed on my terms? And I think Dame has a very different definition of that than other guys. And it's not that winning isn't important or isn't a priority. It's just one of many priorities, it seems like. Yeah, I think my only critique of Dame is his one foot over the fence ass way he carried out his trade demand last summer. I thought it was very ham-handed, clumsy. Oh, I want to do this. Oh, you know, I talk to fellow superstars in it.

I don't know. It just, that was kind of sloppily handled. And it seemed like he wanted it, but he didn't want to deal with the repercussions of his reputational hit. And so he backed out, which I would say is, yo, man, don't throw a stone and hide your hand. Go crazy, you know.

Be like, look, and here's the difference between Dame Lillard and Ben fucking Simmons. Whether I make a trade to Ben and not, guess what? I come to work every day. I'm the hardest working cat. I deliver when I'm needed. I've been doing this shit for 10 years for this freaking franchise.

Like, I got a fucking resume over here of delivering and being a model employee when there's another guy who has a resume of not working on his game for shit. So I think he could have been a little bit more forceful. And when it didn't work, I'd be like, look, I'm Kobe. I demanded a trade. I came back and still bust ass. We're good? We're good here.

That's it. So that's my only critique for Dame Lilly as far as, like, you know, teams that he might want to play for. I mean, people keep bringing up the sixers of it all. But it's like, I don't know. If you're a superstar NBA player, you want to work with Darry? I don't think so. He seems very emotionally unintelligent. He seems like he's really full of himself.

He's very in good with the media. So once he turns on my ass, it's going to be a lot better done to Neil O'Shea. Okay. Yeah, if I'm a superstar, I'm not volunteering or I'm not in a hurry to go work with Darry because he has a way of doing things that I don't think the guys who are the most important people in the league dorks out there, the actual players. I don't think if you're a prominent player, you like the way Darry does business. Well, let's look at this from the Portland side of things because I think they also face a choice here because it seems like they're all over the place. In addition to Lashay, they also lost Chris McGowan, who was, I believe, on the business side, he was a C-O-O-O. So there's a lot of upheaval there. Jody Allen takes over for her late brother. It sounds like just based on reporting that she has, she maybe is less of a hardcore Blazers fan than her brother was who, by all accounts, was just very invested in what happened with all of his team.

teams. From Woolgie's reporting. Well, no, I think there was more than just what. That's broader. Yeah. I mean, I don't know her personally. I'll have to ask her next time. Okay.

We're at a catch together. We're thorough at the group chat. Jody Allen, yeah, Jody Allen, come on the pod. Go to be a guest on group chat. Yeah. But I do think they're kind of at a crossroads here where they could basically say, hey, let's build around Dame or like you guys were saying, this isn't working.

Do we need to play to the future? Do we need to trade Dane? Do we need to trade everyone? Or is there even, like, Rob, an in-between trade? Is it, like, getting rid of Nurkish, getting rid of Roco before his contract comes up? Like, if you're on the ownership on the front office side, what's left of it, like, what are you thinking right now? I think they need a bigger move than that. You know, this is a team that one of their biggest problems is just that they're bad.

Like, if you're a good team, you can talk yourself into lots of short-term solutions, half measures that could get you over the top. If you're Portland, 10th place in the West, pretty much the lower limit of what a decent team in the West can be right now, I don't know how you look at this and say we are a Roco move away from getting back into the mix here. I think it has to be something more substantial, whether that's this season or beyond. But you have to start thinking about more existential reformation of this roster. Like whether Dame is involved or not, whether CJ is involved or not, what are our goals, what can we get in the door, or what does a playoff contending version of this team look like based on where we are now? And it looks like they have a long way to go, starting with hiring a new general manager.

Yeah, and I think if you take the long view and you're like, look, we're Dallas with Dirk Novitsky and this is our guy, he's our franchise guy, he's going to be great well into his 30s, and we're going to figure out a way to maximize it. And we know it's not going to take a year. and we believe in what Dame can do going forward, then you can do that if that's what you truly believe, right? And, you know, of course, the approach has to be completely different

than the one that it's been, which obviously would mean, you know, getting rid of certain people and taking an approach of like, maybe I surround Dame Lillard, who is one of the all-time greatest NBA scores, maybe not ever been a quality defender with wing defense, you know, athleticism, size.

Yeah, wing size players would be a good start. Compliment the best player in the history of my freaking franchise with complimentary players. You know, just a thought. Maybe Olshe could have thought about that before. The tricky thing, though, going forward is Dame is 31. And as we know, small guards tend to age not so gracefully. the shooting, I imagine, will still be there until he's 40. He'll be able to maybe take Logo 3s and they'll just roll him out there and you can just do that.

But you'll be spending a lot of money, potentially even more money down the road on him. And I do wonder, especially considering what we've seen from his mix play this season, he's already injured right now, do we think you can rebuild around Dame at this stage of his career? I think that's like kind of a fair question to ask. Well, and that's why trading him is a perfectly viable solution. this if you want to go that route. You know, he's definitely going to have more, more pull in a potential deal than someone like CJ would, and certainly like someone like Nurkettcher, Robert Covington would. If you can get reasonable offers back for Dame that put you on a rebuilding timetable,

I think you have to think about that. You know, he is a legend for that franchise, but as you're saying, Justin, really valid concerns about what's been basically a long-term abdominal injury for him that he's managed over the course of multiple seasons now. It's just kind of flaring up now in a way that is, I mean, particularly bad timing. C.J. McCollum also has a collapsed lung, which is very, very worrisome for him personally. Get well soon, CJ. But with everything going on in this organization,

I mean, it just feels like there has to be some kind of bloodletting here in terms of we've seen, you know, Terry Statsko, we've seen Olshe, ushered out the door. We're going to have to start seeing some of the players moved on as well. If there's going to be any kind of resolution to what's going on there. They're currently ninth worst in the NBA. and I almost wonder if the solution to all of this is some sort of in between of all we're talking about.

Not blow it up, not stay the course, but maybe, and they might not even have a choice of this, but just kind of bottom out or get as close to the bottom as you can this one season. Tell Dame to take a long-ass time to work on those abdominals, get like the bow flex going, get everything you need to get those things right. Maybe trade CJ in the off season.

Maybe trade the guys that, like, you don't need the veterans who could help a contender, your Nurkich's, your Robert Covington's, your Larry Nances, and then maybe all of a sudden, Katie Pete Davidson from Kanzaga comes in next season, and all of a sudden, like, you're a much better team for it. You didn't have to trade the face of the franchise

because, as we should mention, it does sound like they're having trouble drawing people to the arena, which is something that you typically wouldn't say about a Portland Trailblazers team. So, like, you keep the cash cow, you keep the face of the franchise, but also maybe you weigh some track for the future.

So you want a full circle here where Dame becomes Lamarcus Aldridge and they bring in a new Dame to replace him. It did work to a certain extent. I'll say that. But they did have to get really lucky with the sixth overall pick, yeah.

Yeah, and I think the other alternative is OKC, because let's face it. And you know what the funny thing about OKC and their reputation with superstars? They obviously had an agreement with both Paul George and Russell Westbrook that like y'all sign these long-term deals

but if y'all ever want to be traded we'll be happy to move you which protects their reputation but I think when you're OKC and your Portland your reputation amongst superstars doesn't fucking matter nobody's ever going there voluntarily they only go in there the undemocratic

un-American way of the draft locking them into that rookie extension you got eight-year shot at it and then you know that's your bag so honestly what they should do is trade both of these cats like that's that's the cold-blooded analytical thing that they should probably do is like we're out of the dame and cj business we're in the business of getting the next dame and getting that one more right than we got the dame thing

right and moving on i love when you go full i love when you go full bernie hinky on us i just love how we're talking about portland and waz still finds ways to renew his battle with the American Heartland, you know. Well, I'll just say... It's a never-ending war. It's like Afghanistan that way. Yeah, it's exactly like We're never getting out.

Yeah, I'll just say this. Like, as we mentioned, it does sound like a lot of Woj's reporting comes from the ownership front office ranks. And the one thing I think you can glean from that story is like a lot of executives, it sounds like, would try to blow up that situation if they did get hired in Portland. So I do wonder, was

to your point, like maybe that is the inevitable course that whoever gets there, they sell them on the fact that, like, let's turn the page and let's get this all kind of raise. So I don't know. We'll see. It's a really interesting situation has potential to, obviously, ripple throughout the league. As opposed to looking forward, let's like, let's look back. Let's reflect on this quarter

of the season that we've already undergone. Dan Devine did our quarter awards on the ringer.com. So go check out his picks for them. But we're going to make our picks here. And of course, we're going to start from the top, most valuable player, Rob, is this much of a contest? Who do you have number one on your fake quarter award ballot?

I don't think it's much of one. I mean, we're all picking Steph, right? Yeah. Yes. Moving on. Well, I mean, look, he's the single most terrifying player in the NBA right now. He's breaking records. He's waging psychological warfare. He's almost out of records to break, frankly. And, you know, he's having a profound impact on the style play for the best team in basketball. Like, I don't know what more you want out of an MVP. candidate than that. You know, my favorite thing about Steph, and I've always said this, as a superstar,

his egosiness is just, it's just incredible, man. Like the way that those guys, not just Steph, but the Jordan Pools and the rest of those guys on the team are playing, like the effort with which they play and the execution, it's because Steph got these guys believing in what's possible with this group. And you can't plug and play another superstar in that specific situation and get that out of people. I think it's his, the manner in which he leads people accomplishes this. And that's why to me he's the fucking MVP of the league, man. Like the way these guys play is just a function of Steph, period.

You know, like all of this beautiful game move around, set screens, constantly cutting, constantly passing, hit and go, like hit ahead, all of this stuff, patience, all of this stuff. Nobody wants to fuck him. Nobody came to the league to play like this. Guys came into the league. Give me the rock. Clear out. Let's get busy.

Let me get all the girls, all the highlights, all of that. That's what people come to the NBA to try to accomplish. That's what Rob's mentality is, yeah. Step got guys believing in a team first mentality, and he is the greatest example of it. in his selflessness, his eagelessness, he's the MVP, man. Yeah, so his numbers aren't at the level of his unanimous MVP season, which I don't know if you guys have seen those recently. Good Lord, he was incredible that year.

But the one thing that does stand out, not only is he second in scoring behind Kevin Durant, who we should talk about in his second year, but career high 13.2.3 is a game that's the most in the league. It's crazy because his efficiency hasn't waned all that much. he's still shooting 42%. So it's almost like, take the best thing that he does,

perhaps the best one skill in the entire NBA, and just keep doing more of it, and you're going to have good results. It's a pretty interesting formula. It works out really well. But let's talk about KD here, because he is leading the league in scoring. Obviously, he's just been an absolute tier.

Hasn't had Kyrie. Guys are falling down left and right on that team. Joe Harris obviously hasn't been playing. A couple other guys have been hurt. Is he too, for you guys, was like would you put him to and like is it more of like a one a one b situation or is he a clear number two behind stuff no to me he's a clear number two behind stuff because i think in a vacuum it's there's a way to say that he's been better if not just as good as stuff right like if you

just look at kd's contributions just on a basketball court what you can measure his measurables You can say he's been just as good, if not better than Steph. And I would not say that about Yokic or Chris Paul, right? That's why I think that he's the clear number two. And just, you know, again, for sentimental reasons, 2019 when he goes down with the Achilles and it's like, wow, like, is KD ever going to be the same again? And like, for him to come back, last year, the playoffs was just otherworldly,

Olympics put the damn country on his back, and then now he's just playing at an MVP level. You know, it's really cool to watch. But I think he is number two in MVP behind Steph. I want to ask you guys something about this, because I think that's the two-three, right? Is Durant and Yokic primarily and how you parse those two? I'm equipped with Yokish, actually, but we could circle back on that. Interesting. I think there's some really fascinating conversations going around about Durant and how much he helps or lifts other

players, right? Like, he is absolutely dominant within his, what he does, his lane. But compared to guys like Steph, as we were talking about, and Yokic, who's also a guy who's kind of a style of play unto himself, do they have a more profound impact compared to Duran? And I think the counterpoint to that is probably that Durant is the perfect star to overcome everything that's happened to the Nets, right? Like, you can play D'Andre Bembri and Bruce Brown and Nick Claxson altogether because

it doesn't matter if all three of their guys are going to shade toward Durant when he's going to hit every jumper he takes, right? Right. And you wrote about this last year and like Zach Graham had a really good piece on the ringer yesterday on Tuesday just about this. But how like shopmakers like Durant are warping what we know about NBA offenses like the three in layups. Not me. I always thought the midrange was fundamental to the game. Never stop believing, baby. Yeah. Well, it's back. Congrats. But he is almost like single-handedly making that kind of cheat code, not much of a much of a. an advantage anymore. I mean, the crazy thing about Durant is he's also playing an absurd amount of minutes to the point where you're starting to get like the concern trolling news stories come out of games. Like, are we sure James Hardin and Kevin Durant should be playing 40 minutes a game at this point in the season after Waz just mentioned like Olympics, he played deep into the

playoffs, played all those playoff minutes. Like I have to say I'm a little perturbed that we spent so much time like five years ago with so much consternation about like minutes and like rest and all these rest warriors and all these like true who presents features that we had to read or I personally had to edit like I kind of want that era of my life back where it's just like Steve, maybe it's like Nash being a former player knowing what a former player can go through or maybe like he just has so much sway in that organization that he can like absurd or or just like not listen to some of the doctors there. But like what the fuck were we talking about all these minute limitations, all this stuff for so long for when the best player in the world who's coming off a major injury is playing

40 minutes a game. Well, see, I don't think it's that different from the analytics conversation, specifically what Kramm wrote about, which is we kind of already won. Like, the people who are arguing for rest, the schedule has been completely reshaped. And it wasn't just about, is Tom Tibido playing Lou All Dang too many minutes? It's, is he playing him too many minutes in between running two-a-day practices that are killing these guys? Like, the nets are not practicing. They're not. Yeah. And practice? Yeah. And- And, you know, for the Nets, it's out of necessity. Like, they have to play KD this many minutes, right?

It's not like they're going out and blowing the doors off of guys. I don't know off the top of my head what their point differential is, but it's not like they're going out and killing people. They need KD to play these minutes in order to win. Yeah. And as far as, you know, and the analytics thing to, you know, to basically piggyback your point, I think this is the first, this might be the first year ever where three point rate doesn't correlate with best in the league.

Which just means that everybody's now doing it, right? Like we've reached a point where this is the standard. So if everybody's adopted the standard, that means, yeah, the proof is in the pudding. Because they wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think it would make you win or give you an advantage. So yeah, it's, it's obvious that the analytics people won, but at the same time, you know, KD is the sort of, he's the antidote to what, you know, coach is always saying. It's like, I know what your fucking numbers are saying, but individually, I'm analytical about these dudes, meaning like KD taking a bunch of midrangers analytically makes way more sense than whatever your

fucking modules say about when, I don't know. when Karris Levert takes one. You know, like, it's different. Justin, what is the argument against Yokic? Because it sounds like you're a little skeptical of his MVP case. I think it would just be results-based, which I don't know how much you can hold against Yokic considering just injuries ravaging that roster

to the point where like Austin Rivers is even around to play spot duty in some instances. Our guy Bones Highland, just like, ironically, not having strong enough bones to be able to play minutes for that team in some. He's been in the health and safety protocol. Come on. Yeah, I know. But he also was dinged up for one or two games. Chris Paul would be the counter to that.

Just considering that they are 20 and 4 and they went on such a tear through the NBA. The windstrike is probably the biggest event, I guess, or the biggest results-based event that we've kind of encountered earlier in this season. And I do think you have to credit Paul for all the reasons we talked about on the last podcast for that. leading the league in assists. He's, DeAndre Aiton hasn't been an issue. They've overcome Devin Booker injuries.

I do think at a certain point, you have to look beyond the numbers and have to credit the Sons and in particular, Paul. That's the case. I mean, Paul's been really good. I don't even know that I would have him top four. I think I would have Yokic and Yonis over, over Chris Paul. And the Yolkich thing, as far as the numbers and the performance go, with Yokic on the floor. The Nuggets are a top three offense at a top three defense. Without Yokic, they are a bottom three offense and the worst defense in the league. I don't know what more he can do with a roster of eighth and ninth men, basically. The defensive part is crazy. Yeah. He's come a long way.

Yeah. Back when I was calling him Joe Chitch because I didn't think his defense was worthy of pronouncing his name, right? Not that my opinion matters, but I would say that. You're more of a, you're more of a nurk guy. Yeah, in that battle. I would say that he's definitely been better than Chris Paul. And the Phoenix thing is a cool thing to watch because I think it is a testament to just Neil O'Shea, what it looks like to build a crazy, good, deep franchise team. Look at all of the pieces.

Look at the wing depth. Look at what they do at the big position. Look at what they did when they went out and a great veteran was available and they swung for the fences. Wow. Look at this roster. James Jones took a lot of shit, by the way, from certain insidery. I talked to a bunch of white execs type of media guys very early on in his tenure. He did.

And look at what was going on over there. They're exemplary, right? They never did. Not to say that they never did. but they never pulled an OKC for extended periods of time. Not intentionally. Right, exactly. They tried and they failed.

Right. I guess that's something. And they put together, you know, piece by piece, brick by brick. And to the point where they could withstand an injury like Devin Bookers and still be viable, right? And still be one of these teams that you got to reckon with. So would you have Paul 3 over Yokic or how does it's the bottom of your ballot? No, no, no, no, no. I don't.

Because at a certain point, man, Like, for MVP, you got to actually put it out on the floor. You know, like the actual work that Yokic is doing on a night-to-night basis, it's measured. To me, the measurables have to matter. And Yolkich has that shit in spades. Sure. The crisp ball thing is tough, too, because if we're being honest and if he had been fully healthy this season, I think Jimmy Butler probably gets a top five spot too.

And that would put a lot of pressure on CP as a guy who, Like the counting stats just aren't there in a way that they are for some of these other guys. The impact stats aren't there. The value of what the Suns do is so displaced among all of their primary stakeholders. They're all doing a great job, which kind of undercuts CP's case in a way. Other guys I would just throw out there in addition to Yana. So I think I had fifth here, although I did want to mention the bulls deal of Demargo Rosen and Zach Levine. The numbers are crazy.

If we're talking about just representing the standings from the first quarter of the season, I think you got to talk about those guys. Shout out, Paul George, too. And look, I don't want to cast any aspersions, but DeMardo Rosen having the best year of his life at year 32, is it? Mm-hmm. Barry Bonds.

Wow. Is that a positive connotation these days? I don't know. Not to cast aspersions, but it was just undercutting his future Hall of Fame case right now. All right, let's move a long time. to rookie at the quarter. I think this one is also obvious.

Rob, do you agree? Yeah, open and shut, Evan Mobley. Can we just move on to who's two and three? Sure. I think Scotty, Scottie Barnes is... I think he's got a case. And, you know, so this is a case where typical media, right? I tweeted out that the Luca honeymoon is over in the sense that it's not cute anymore.

You know when, like, the kid is... at the phase when he breaks a vase in the crib, you're like, oh my God, he's capable of breaking stuff. Oh, that's crazy. Look at him, he's so cute. He's always bitching at the refs. Oh, look at him. He's only shooting 30% from three.

Oh, look at him. Oh, he's so cute. That step back. It's not cute anymore. It's time for discipline. It's time to get on the road to like being better at what you do on a day-to-day basis. It's not cute.

The reverse, right, is true of Scotty Barnes. I went on Canadian radio and I was like, I don't think Scotty Barnes is going to, I don't think Scottie Barnes is going to score the requisite points it takes to fucking win rookie at a year. They usually do this count stats thing. He's not an offensive sort of dynamo.

I don't think he's going to be able to do it. Dude comes out and starts leading the freaking league of rookies in scoring, right? So because he's proving me so wrong, I'm super high on his case. Are you big in Canada? Oh, I'm huge. You got your own back.

bagged milk brand. But no, I'm a fan of what Scotty Barnes is doing, though. I was just going to say there's a precious, a chew-a-video of him experiencing bagged milk from the first time, which I highly recommend for everyone. I found it very educational personally. Yeah, I had no idea that you had it in, like, a container. I thought you poured it into the container.

It's a whole thing. Just figured out. There's hardware involved. I mean, it's a lot. But Scotty Barnes, I mean, we have to say, is about as smooth on offense as a dude can be who can only kind of sort of shoot.

You know, like... Yeah. He sees the floor like a connector does, but he doesn't settle, like, the connecting... You know, the Draymond types, the Nick Batum types, like, he's aggressive, he's pushing, he's always trying to get to the rim or get to his mid-range spots.

Really impressive player. He's just kind of all over the place defensively like you would expect a rookie not named Evan Mobley to be. Mm-hmm. I mean, obviously, Kate Cunningham is the only... the other person we should throw out here.

Rob, I'm curious because Wazz was escaping for Barnes. Would you put Barnes to or Cunningham to? I don't have Cunningham in the top three right now. I think it's Barnes and I think it's Franz Wagner at third right now. Josh Giddy? Oh, okay. Josh, I mean,

I mean, look, stop. I think Cunning, I think Cunningham is going to get there. It's just he started off so slowly and Franz Wagner's been super impressive both as like a defined role guy and is basically a point forward when their guards have been injured, I just, I see a little bit more there so far. He just has a really mature game versus Cunningham is going to have to find his way a little bit. He's going to have

to find his angles, figure out his speed, how it all operates on an NBA stage. He'll be there in the end. But right now, I think it's Mobley clear number one to me, Barnes, and then a big gap, and then it's Wagner, Cunningham, Chris Duarte, whoever you like for that third spot. Yeah, Cunningham missing the five games makes it a tough sell for this first quarter. I get that, but just like some of the recent results that he's had where he's just like been the best player on the court for the Pistons has just been incredible. The jump was finally falling.

Yeah, and just like they're like marquee like 28 points per game, like triple double type of performances that he just kind of keeps sprinkling in there. So like I would be very surprised if he's not the clear cut two, if not like in the running for one with Mobley by the end of the year. It's just, I mean, he's shooting 38% right now. He's starting off slow. Rob, he's trending upwards. Come on.

Don't be such a grinch. I'm just saying first quarter. First quarter, he's not on my ballot. End of season, he probably will be. Past 10 games, 40% from the floor, 33% from 3% from 3 at 7.5 attempts. That's fine. Those are the trending up numbers.

We're going up, yeah. Not blowing the doors off, but he's doing good work here. Should we move to Most Improved? Sure. I found this one to be the most intriguing one because there are so many guys who are just taking leaps or many leaps throughout this season. Was, do you have someone you have at the top of your ballot? Man, it's Miles Bridges to me because of, like, the way that he transforms the outlook of what Charlotte can be. It's like this guy is a dynamic scorer.

Like, he can bully small people, dribble past big guys, position. defensively, he's versatile enough to guard your threes, guard a lot of your fours, and motor. You know, I know that's old school, but I like motor guys. I like guys who play hard

every single fucking night. And he brings that to the table. I just never viewed him as a hub, right, on offense. I don't know about you, I didn't know he could do this shit. I think, look,

Darius Garland, what he's doing this season is groundbreaking. in the sense that, you know, I talked a lot of shit about how shot happy Cleveland's guards used to be. And some Cleveland people hit me up and was like, nah, you miss it on Garland. At the end of the year, he was rounding in the shape as a playmaker. And they've proven to be right about that. Like, that's groundbreaking.

Like, his willingness to take and his ability to make shots from all three levels of the court, coupled with playmaking, like, that's going to mean everything for Cleveland. However, I just think Miles Bridges, what do he brings? defensively and just being somebody who's going to get buckets? Like, I didn't know this could happen. So for me, it's Bridges, man. Well, what he has that the other candidates don't is for these other guys, it's kind of like a matter of course, right?

Like, Darius Garland is a young player getting better at the things you would expect a young player to get better at. John Morant. A high draft pick, too. Like a top five guy, yeah. John Morant is taking a leap, but he's a guy who looked like he was poised to take a leap. He dropped 40 in a fucking playoff game. And you could do the same thing with, you know, if you want to do Tyler Hero or O.G. and Anobi or Cole Anthony or like these guys who are take Tyrese Maxi, these guys who are progressing.

Tyrese maxi, by the way, is way better than Cal Lowry according to Sixers fans now. We're going to bury that one for now. But yeah, Miles Bridges completely changed the parameters of what kind of player he could be. And has Waas said what that means for the Hornets and what kind of team they could be. And let this be a lesson for players everywhere. your handle is your way to freedom. If you can handle the ball, if you can drive,

if you can attack, everything opens up, everything. It's so surprising because as Zwaas mentioned, Bridges is like a roast beef of a human. And when he just like breaks guys off the dribble and like creates for himself and others, it's incredible.

I look this up. He has his many ISOs this season is Jimmy Butler. And like you don't think of him because, again, he is a roast beef type human. But like he is essentially like a big wing in like a, he's like a bigger, bigger wing. an XXL wing. Yeah.

The front office is going to wish he was roast beef. This dude is prime rip, Justin. He is upscaling. He's going to get paid at a level. They're going to wish they gave him the extension while they could have. I will say that like... He'll get paid like he ate five wag you. He's going to serve that to his dog.

I will say like you're definitely starting to see the scenes a little bit now that they're encountering so many injuries and all this protocol, like COVID stuff that's knocked off half their team. Like I definitely think he's miscarved. cast is being like a primary guy to the point where like he he went full hero ball at the end of the most recent game trying to win it at the buzzer and it's like nope that's not that's not what you're doing guy but like he's absolutely not spider Mitchell right right like he's he's definitely not that but you know what he sure ain't like some improved like kelly ubrae type of

he's not that man like he's legitimately given the ball and things positive things are going to happen for your squad. That's, that's incredible to me. I don't know. Did y'all see this coming from Loss Bridges? This is a revelation straight up. And he's the perfect compliment to Lamello. There's obviously a connection between them on the offensive end, but just the versatility he brings, like to have your number two guy, assumedly, like he'll get paid to the point where he is that next season, being the type of guy where you could put him as like a wing stopper or also as like a small ball center between him, Lamello, Hayward, that's so much length and like IQ. in versatility.

Like, that just speaks to, like, what a bright future is ahead in Charlotte. But I did want to get to Darius Garland because I had him number two. And while I do think, like, he was injured for a couple games earlier in the season, I think he's come on more of late. Like, I've just been completely blown away by his transformation, basically to a go-to guy for the Cavaliers. Like, Mowgli has been incredible. Jared Allen has been playing up to, like, or maybe close to $100 million type of player.

Jared Allen's good now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. but I also think part of that is like Garland being able to like set him up and and like the connection they have on the pick and roll there. He had backed back to back 30 point games recently and I thought like the biggest like feather in his cap and like indicator of how far he's come is the bucks. One of the like a historically good defense in recent years

basically keyed in on Garland is basically like you're not going to get the ball and like if you get into the paint we're going to crowd you to make sure you don't get it to Alan like I think he's elevating to that level player for this guys and while it's like disappointing that Colin Sexton and had the injury that he did. I do think it clarified a lot of things for that Cleveland Cavaliers team, and in particular for Garland's role. Man, it's crazy because it has like a compounding effect when you hire him. When you sign a guy like Jared Allen, right?

And you have somebody who can maximize what it is that he does. That's important, right? Which sounds obvious, but like Jared Allen could be playing on a team with just, I don't Colin Sexton on it, and he's not being maximized, right? The fact that Garland allows you to maximize the assets that you actually have in the house while also improving upon everything that he does individually is amazing, you know. And it reminds me of, look, Darius Garland is not Chris Paul, but it reminds me of what Chris Paul and Aiton have going on,

where Aiton is able to be his optimal self, at least on national TV, because Chris Paul is so dedicated to getting him the things that he needs in order to operate. And so it's cool to watch. Yeah. And on that note, actually, just to throw some data to that point, I was playing around on Second Spectrum last night. Top 10 in drives for Darius Garland, but he's also top five in handoffs. He uses more off-ball screens than Steph Curry and Bradley Beale. So you could see the versatility.

there where he could drive it into the pane, dish it out and get Alan involved, but he could also curl off screens. It's actually really fun watching him go off of, like, screens and watching, like, defenses try to immediately stop him from getting to the paint because he's so quick, but he could also spring back into

a three, and just that combination is just so deadly. So, sorry, Rob, go ahead. He can really shoot. I mean, and the CP comparison I like, because you just don't see that many small guards who see the angles like this. At 6'1, Like, this is not a guy with Steve Nash size or Jason Kidd size or even Steph Curry's size.

Like, he is dwarfed by everyone he plays against and the passing angles are just lighting up for him. So that's a great thing to see from a guy in year three, even as the rest of his game is continuing to come together too. All right. Defensive player of the year here. I think this one is pretty open and shut, Boaz. Open and shut. Miles Turner, right? By the way, Miles Turner about to finally be freed.

I think hopefully please God, Jesus. How about the Pacers? The Pacers are imploding in their own way and can't even get on the marquee today. Tough look. It's tough. It's tough being in the heartland. Yeah, Draymore Green, it's just obvious, man.

You know, that Sun's game where Steve Kerr starts him out on Chris Paul, that's all you need to know about what Draymond Green does for your defense. It's I allow you to play all shooters around me because I'm a rim protector. I'm the best help defender in the league. I can guard the best of the best on the wing.

And like, I'm the back line calling everything out, basically the captain giving out singles. I'm the middle linebacker, essentially, of the freaking defense. And then it's like, oh, you want me to guard one of the, greatest point guards of all time. Steve Kerr, yeah, I can do that. Yeah, these are some of the guys

Draymond has guarded as a primary defender this season. Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Paul George, DeMarre de Rosen, Chris Paul, Damian Lillard. What is that? What is that? It's crazy. Yeah, it's wild to see

the list of that because it's also guys who have risen in part because of Draymond. Like, Draymond is the model and you're starting to see more Dremont types come as a result of that. And I think we talked about this a couple weeks ago about how much easier it is to play Dramon on center because teams are sizing down across the league. But I also think it's because he put into vogue that like his type, his body type and like his playing type is actually perfect because he could switch on the guys and he has IQ. He's long.

It's like so you're seeing like Dremon's across the league and it's making the original Dremon even better. It's kind of like we were talking about with Steph. Like, yeah, there's guys running off the ball and whatnot. But like, Steph is still Steph. He's going to be the best. And so having the Model T versions of these guys has been really beneficial. One thing I did want to throw out there just to Bowie is already like incredible case for DPOIs. The Warriors had the first below 100 defensive rating since 2015-16, which were the Spurs.

Which, by the way, Nuts. Forgotten awesome team in the 2015-16 spurs because they just happened to run into the buzzsaw that the Warriors. but like that's incredible in an era where offense, I know it's like has been not as much of a just. Well, don't forget, OKC kicked their asses in the playoffs. That was,

right. They were the second, they were 67 wins and all of that. They were a great team. But OKC took care at him in the second round. I picked OKC. Taking five year old victory laps. No,

but no, but that team, I remember, they were setting records. on defense, that San Antonio team, they were historically incredible. That's what I most remember about that team. By like January, I think they had like a 91 defensive rating, which even then was just like, what the fuck is going on?

Like Pistons 2004 level. Exactly. And I'll just say the caveat here is like offenses down across the board. So like we'll see if this continues. But it's pretty incredible even for a quarter of a season considering the way teams are shooting at these days. And again, it's not one of those things where like with Phoenix, they have all of this fucking wing depth. They have

eight in that center. They have all of this defensive talent, this length, quickness, athleticism, continuity as far as understanding the system and the scheme. They have all of these things like, Golden State don't got that. You know, like nobody's like staff, Jordan Poole

and, you know, Gary Payton's kid, like, Juan Tuscano Anderson. Nobody's like, These are the most incredible defenders we've ever seen. Like, bro, it's Draymond Green, man. It's crazy. What they do have is Draymond, and he has the built-in familiarity with the Steffs

and the Andre Guadalas. I mean, just so much non-verbal communication going on during games with them. And then you have him pulling aside the Jordan Pools and basically coaching them in the middle of games, telling them where they need to be and what they need to do, and why things aren't going the way they should. It's just an invaluable thing to have

when you're trying to operate at a championship. level. So who else is on this ballot? I have Rudy Gobert and McHale Bridges. I think you could flip them to two. One could be two, one could be three. I don't really have strong feelings about that. But is there anybody else? Or is that the list? I think we got to get Janus in here. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Janus got to get it. Yeah. I mean, they're basically surviving by their defense at this point. And that's without Brooke Lopez. That's with Drew Holiday and Chris Middleton out for big chunks of the season. Milwaukee's been 14 points better on defense with Janus on the floor, not exactly a surprise, but he's been, he's been incredible. And, you know, he's a big reason why

they can vary up their coverages, why they can switch and show and drop and, you know, jumble between those things in the middle of games in the way that they weren't doing two years ago. That's, that's the key. They're no longer doing the cookie cutter pick and roll defense. They're like, wow, we have a seven-foot dynamo. Why don't we make him guard everybody? Why don't we do that? And they're doing it, and Yonis is stepping up to the task. It's probably worth noting, too, here on the Rudy Gobert front

in the eternal drop defense debate, they've started putting him on some different guys. Even teams that have traditional centers, like they were playing Cleveland, they'll have Rudy Gobert guard Isaac Akoro and have Boyan Bogdanovich try to front Jared Allen instead. So Rudy can just kind of hang in the paint.

I think there's some ways that with Gobert, I mean, he's been challenging shots, defensive rebounding at an unbelievable level. level. There are ways you can kind of change things up to keep him in the mix more often. All right. Do we need to do Sixth Man, Tyler Hero, right? Yeah, must we? Yeah, Tyler Hero, congratulations. Sixth Man is a worthless award. Coach of the Year, anyone? It's Billy Donovan to me. Just because of the amount of roster turnover and what it takes to

make all of that work, like the counter example being the Lakers. who are a much more talented team, but they completely disbanded their roster, right? And they're having a hard time making that whole thing work right now. The fact that the Bulls had all of this turnover, all of this upheaval, and they play like a team. You got to give Billy Donovan his props. He just had a vision for how that team needs to play.

And they've carried it out from day one, all the pieces of fit together, even with, you know, Nikola Vucovich missing a quarter of the season and not even being that great when he's played, and it just hasn't mattered. Because they found rotation guys. They found other places of minutes.

Nikola Vouchovitch, not that great. Do you have Vich? Not what I said. Are you a Vich non-believer? I'm a truther. Yeah, come on. Give me a break with the Vooch thing. That's going to get scary in the playoffs.

Like, teams don't do it. Like, it's one of those things where teams aren't that roofless in the regular season about those kinds of defensive things. But he is so damn slow-footed and has no hops whatsoever. Scary. And he's not that big. Like, Yonkitsch is huge, right? Like, that's the one thing he, his one defensive acid.

He doesn't have quick feet. He could barely jump over a textbook. But he's huge. He's tall. He's long. If he gets in the way, that's a deterrent. Vujavis is not that. big for real.

He's quickly become like the big lead for the Balkans. Just doing tape down comparing a bunch of big serbs. Hey, Yonkovich's brother remember I said nice things about him and always have.

Let the record show. I actually think Vooch has been pretty solid on defense this season. But neither here nor there. Billy Donovan, I think a great pick for coach at the year. And since we kind of glossed over

six man while we're talking Bulls, I think Alex Caruso has a chance to get on some ballots on the back. into that. Can't believe they allowed that man to leave crypto.com arena. They're going to ruin the day that they let him go from there. I also had Monty Williams on my coach of the year ballot. I had Steve Kerr.

Anybody else to throw out there? The Oklahoma City Thunder coach whose name I can't even remember. They got to call Dava coach. They have a team. Yeah. Dagnu. I feel like that was like a cat saying his name. Dang me you.

Is this a bit now? No, I just like, I have a tough time saying names, I guess. Chris Finch, I think is in that conversation. Wes Unseld, Jay Bickerstaff. Oh, yeah, shouts to West Unseld. Basically, teams that overperformed, yeah. But it's going to be tough to correct those top three. Like, you know, we're having to do a big corrective slash apology to Steve Kerr,

because even when we were talking about last season as a whole, maybe we were taking too narrow a view because I don't know that Jordan Poole and Juan Tuscano Anderson. and Damian Lee, all these guys, are they as comfortable in the way the Warriors play right now if they didn't do it last year? I don't think they are. All right.

Anybody else, Waz? I guess you could throw out James Borego, too. Yeah, I'm a, yo, man, I'm a big fan of Borego. Like, he's one of my favorite guys in the league. I think he's always doing smart shit on the floor. And people underestimate how young the team really is. And to get these kind of results from guys, that young, you know, I love James Barago. I don't think he gets enough credit. Obviously, he's not

like, you know, Spolster or Carlisle or something. He obviously doesn't, hasn't proven it at the highest level as far as playoffs and executing against the most insane opponents. But like, I'm a Barrego guy. Yeah. He's a fellow beer, bro. So respect. Don't see a lot of that in the NBA. All right, let's, let's wrap it there. Thank you to everyone for joining us. Thank you to Jonathan Kerm, a big current for stepping in on production. We'll be back next week when we'll be talking about some trades because it's fast becoming trade season around these hair parts. We'll see you then.