The Ringer NBA Show - Damian Lillard Sent Russell Westbrook and the Thunder Home | The Corner 3

Episode Date: April 24, 2019

We recap one of the most ridiculous shots in NBA history—Damian Lillard’s 37-foot stepback 3 to end the series against Oklahoma City (1:08). Then we talk about the rise of the pull-up 3 in the NBA, and how it might affect scouting and drafting going forward (21:00). Finally, we go over the remaining series and give exit surveys for the Nets and Magic, the other teams that were eliminated on Tuesday night (34:30). Hosts: Kevin O’Connor and Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Now it's time for the Corner 3. Welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is the Corner 3. My name's Kevin O'Connor and calling in from Dallas, Texas. It's Ringer staff writer, Jonathan Charts. What's up, guys? No Danny Chow this week. He's winning some prestigious award in New York City or something.

He's too cool for us now, I think, is what's going on. No Danny Child this week, so consider us the long two. An appropriate tribute to Russell Westberg's 11 for 31 shooting performance. and Oklahoma 118 to 115 series ending loss to the Blazers we're recording this at 12.06 p.m. Eastern on Wednesday morning,

Wednesday afternoon. We're going to talk about all the playoff games last night, but let's first start with that Blazers Thunder game. It's really not about Westbrook, though, is it, Jonathan? It's about Damien Lillard, who scored 50 points and hit the 37-foot pull-up three to win it. That's one of the greatest game-winning jumpers we're ever going to see in our lifetime.

And then the wave after, like, that was, cold-blooded, man. Like, I might have to fight you after that if you do that to me. You send me home on a 40-4 shot and then waved me away. Chad is brutal. You would not have obeyed the wave goodbye. Would you have charts?

Oh, man. It's one of those things like, OK, see, you ask for it. You want to talk about ass-busting, but, man, 50 points in a close-out game, giving you buckets the whole game. What a comeback from last year, man. This is like, it's almost like Virginia in the NSA tournament.

to go from where he was last year after getting swept by the pelicans, getting clown left and right, come back, man, just on top of the world today. We're living in Dame's world right now. You know, the funny thing is with that shot, man, it's a type of thing where if you look at his numbers over the years, the way he's evolved and stretched his range out to Steph Curry range, the logo range, that shot, wherever it's from, whether it's right towing the line or from 37 feet,

is not an easy shot to hit a side dribble to his right against one of the world's best defenders in Paul George. That's a tough shot to, never mind, get off, but to make it takes a lot of confidence in yourself, but also a lot of skill. I think it's one of the most talented shots that we've seen in quite a long time, never mind the moment and everything that led up to it. Yeah, it's funny.

You mentioned Steph. It reminds me of that shot was that 2016 regular season game when Steph hit like the game winner from 40 feet in Oklahoma City. Is the same kind of deal, man? Yeah, yep. yeah and that was regular season but similar feel um with that shot back then when at that point really step was the only guy doing that and we're seeing that everywhere we'll talk a little bit more about the pull up three um a little bit but in terms of this game the lead up to this shot as well

portland was down 15 with seven minutes and 12 seconds to go they were down 10 with 531 to go they were down six with 155 to go and it all just fell apart over the these past six or seven minutes for Oklahoma City after they had built a lead early in that quarter charts. I mean, I thought it was over 15 points with seven minutes left. You've really got to go out of your way to blow that one. Like, they had it. And they had this, like, if they go back to Oklahoma City at game six, I think they had found some lineups that made sense to see in Portland.

This could have been a series, but I mean, it's both dame closed on the mountain. OKC really falling apart late for sure. Well, you mentioned they found some lineups that worked. What were those and did they come too late in the series? I mean, to me, I'm watching the series. series, to me, the thing that was killing them the whole time was Stephen Adams. Like, you look at how Dame's playing, Stephen Adams can't go out there. And every time Adams is on the floor, they even tried later in the series to move Adams off

Cannon and put him on Mo Harkless so that there was less pick and rolls. But it doesn't matter. Wherever Adams was, Dame really exploited that. Dame kind of went Adam whenever he wanted. Either Adams can't stay in front of him. They can get the open shot or he gets around him against the rim. So the number of that was going into this game, here's a number of the, blew my mind. In the first four games,

when Dane was playing against Stephen Adams, plus 16.7, 64.2 true shooting percentage. When I was off the floor, plus 3.1, 44.4.8, two shooting percentage. Like, to me, if you have a guy like Dame,

if you have a guy who can shoot from anywhere on the floor, you've got to play smaller and more versatile bigs, or you have no chance. Yeah, and Billy Donovan did go small late in the game. It just came a little bit too late. in that second half, he played Grant, Westbrook, and Paul George for the entire second half. Those are the guys that he had to trust in that game. And one of the issues for Billy Donovan with making that choice to move Adams off ball is,

you're right, charks. Like, he can't defend right now. He looks like he's either hurt or eliminated or playing through something, but either, no matter what it is, he looks like he's 35 years old right now, moving around on the court. It's an issue for Oklahoma City, especially if it's not injury related and it's just a subtle decline. I think Danny mentioned last week of just years and years of playing through things. 25 years old, he looks 35. And the problem is, is moving him off ball in those situations. Ennis Cantor murdered Oklahoma City on the offensive boards during those stretches when Adams

was boxing out somebody else. Canter had six offensive rebounds and Portland scored eight points off of those boards. And each one of those came when Grant or George, a smaller guy, was defending Cantor. And so Cantor is somebody who we thought heading into the series, may be the guy that has a hard time staying on the floor. Instead, with his offensive boards, with his increased activity on defense, he was a guy that was actually able to have

a pretty productive series for the Blazers. Did you see his tweet after the series? Can play cancer. Man, they must have been to lockerer on their phones the entire time. They were just dropping bombs. Whenever OKC was their press conference, Dane was dropping a bomb on Paul George.

I mean, They were just tweeting like crazy. Yeah, I mean, if you look at the numbers, to me, like when you lose 4-1 in a series, I look at it up, I think, man, this coach did not make adjustments. And one thing I really, like, bothers me, really gets under my skin. It's like, if you're losing one way, at least try something different. Like Billy Donovan, or Donovan, as you would say. So in this series, he played Grand Adams, 146 minutes.

That's one word I can't say for whatever reason. Whether it's Mitchell, whether it's Mitchell, the player in Utah. That should Donovan. Yeah, the Donovan are killing you. Someone helped me out on that. In this series, he played Grand Adams 146 minutes. They were minus 14.4. He played Grant and Norland's Noel 10 minutes.

Grant and Markief Morris three minutes. Grant at the 5, 18 minutes. To me, at some point already in the series, he had to move off that lineup. He had to get smaller. And if Ennis Canter is going to beat me on the glass, I'd rather have Ennis Canter beat me than Dame Lird beat me. Like to me, against a player like Dame, you've just got to be able to defend the pullup three.

You've got to at least contest that shot. If you can't contest that shot, you're screwed. I mean, and then we look at the end of that game, right? Paul George is saying, oh, it's a bad shot. Well, the game has changed, man. You've got to move around that. Yeah. Paul George did say after the game how it was a bad shot that Damien Lillard took at the end of the game.

In the full quote, for what it's worth, is, quote, that's a bad shot. I don't care when anybody says, that's a bad shot. but hey, he made it. The story will be told. It was a bad shot. You'll live with that. And the thing with what Paul George is saying is like, you get it. I understand the conventional wisdom that a 37-foot contested pull-up jumper is a poor

shot. But the context matters when it comes to the shots that you're taking. With that amount of time left, you're taking the best shot that's available. And for Damien Lillard, lead every shot that he took between 30 and 40 feet this season, he hit at a 39.2% rate. That's crazy. He hit 20 of 51 shots. shots of between 30 and 40 feet.

So for Lillard, it's, it has been a good shot all season long. And even if you look at the past two seasons, he, he hit around 30% of shots in that range. And this season after hitting that one, consider the context, it's a good shot. Consider his production. It's a good shot. And by the way, if you want to talk about bad shots, I would have absolutely loved. I would have loved if somebody followed up to Paul George and said, I understand what you're saying

that a shot at that point from that range is a poor shot. But how about the pull-up contested mid-range jumpers with 15 seconds left on the shot clock from your teammate Russell Westbrook? Is that also a bad shot? Okay. All right, KOC. Get it off your chest. Let's talk about Russ real quick.

How are you feeling? Let's quickly just look at the stat lines for these guys last night. Russell Westbrook played 45 minutes and had 29 points on 11 for 31 shooting to go along with 14 assists to five turnovers with 11 rebounds. Paul George had 36 points on 14 of 20 shooting. It reminded me so much of those classic early 2010s games when Katie would go off, but he wouldn't have as many shots as Russell Westbrook. And everybody would blame Russ for the losses.

And a lot of the time, you know, there's good reason to some of the time. You know, I think that's just the way the game went where Russ had to take those shots. But last night's game, for me, Charks, did remind me of what we've seen this entire decade. with Russ's partnerships with his superstar teammates where the second best player is for whatever reason the one taking more shots in the game and forcing plays. Yeah, this is not how that game went. Like, that easily,

the other thing I was thinking watching it, like, why wasn't Paul George guarding Daymore in the series? And I feel like probably because Westbrook told Billy Dunavan that I want this matchup. Like, I'm the guy, I'll guard him. And yeah, you just wonder, I saw after the game, Charles Barclay said,

They should move Russ to the two, which I understand where he's coming from. Like, maybe if Russ is on the ball in his hands all the time, he's not going to shoot it. The problem is he's playing shooting guard. You really have to shoot the ball at shooting guard. I mean, there's a number of issues. I think those last two minutes of the game really captured the Russell Westbrook, the bad side of the Russell Westbrook experience. He obviously has these just incredible moments and has had tons of game winning shots,

game winning plays in his career. but he also has moments where he's just blowing games in the final two minutes just to go through it. These were plays that Russell Westbrook was directly involved in. With 155 left, he was called for an offensive charge on a careless drive with 139 left. He had his hands on his knees defending C.J. McCollum, who was spotting up from three. And then McCollum got the ball and easily drove the closeout because Russell Westbrook was out of position having his hands on his knees. Then with 122 left, Russ ran a pick and roll, passed it to Jeremy Grant, who tossed up a wild leg. up probably should have passed out of that.

But on the rebound, Westbrook went over the back and filed Mo Harcquins. Oh, that was brutal. That was a brutal play. Oh, my goodness. Put him at the line. And 39 seconds left, George handed the ball off the George, who hit the go-ahead bucket. With 19 seconds left, Westbrook aggressively drove to the basket against Aminu, who played just absolutely stellar defense in the play, kept in front of Westbrook.

And Westbrook, with his body basically horizontal to the ground, tossed up a horrific floater from five, six feet. away from the rim. And this is something we've seen from Westbrook in the past. And it's so frustrating where he's a great player, but he makes such poor decisions, charts. Yeah, to me,

at the end of the game, you're OK, C, you've got to be hunting good matchups. Is Westbrook going up against Al Fruke and Meen are the best matchup? No. You can get Paul George on C. J.

McCollum or Ennis Cantor. And like that one play, where Westbrook gave George a 15-footer, that's probably the shot they got to go for. the end of the game. It's like Paul George, he was an MVP candidate this year. He got a hurt. Obviously, that kind of affected him going into the series. But going forward, you've got at some point say, hey, look, Westbrook, Paul George is the guy. Paul George is the offense going to go through. He can get a shot whenever he wants. He's a better shooter. He's bigger.

And it reminds me of, you know what I wish would happen? Do you remember the one year where Houston beat the Clippers to get to the conference finals, the Josh Smith, Corey Brewer game? Yeah, yeah. You know what's on the bench in that fourth quarter? Who went to the bench charts? James Hardin. Because their coach said Hardin, you're not playing well, you're out of position, you're hurting the team.

I don't care that you're the best player. We're going to win without you if you don't play the right way. And I don't feel like never Russ's career has any coach had the authority to just bench him in a fourth quarter of a big game, right? He runs the franchise. And I just feel like that's holding back the whole franchise because they're so worried Russ is going to leave them. They were so worried that Russ would like.

like, oh, I'm going to LA now, that they never really challenged him. They never made him a better player. And they've created a monster. And I might as wait to change now. Like, when Russ was 23, 24, 25, maybe someone should have been telling him, hey, those are bad shots. If you take them, we're going to bench you. That never happened. And now it might be too late.

You know, I think that's really the source of my frustration with Russell Westbrook Charks. I can't imagine nobody's ever tried to get to him. I mean, he's had so many different coaches. has come through Oklahoma cities, had so many different people who have trained him, worked with him. I can't imagine nobody's ever said it. I just worry that for Oklahoma City's sake, that he just doesn't listen, that he's just not willing to accept that or not willing to change. I mean, whether it's something in life, whether it's a bad habit somebody has or the way you play on

the basketball court, some people are just stubborn and unwilling to change. And with Russell Westbrook, what's so frustrating is he is clearly, obviously, a Hall of Fame player, right? He is going to be a Hall of Famer. And yet there's more to his game. I've been writing for years on The Ringer and talking on podcast about how he needs to change his game or else he's going to be this error is Alan Iverson, a guy who is an unbelievable regular season player who just couldn't reach a level higher in the playoffs. And that's a good career.

He's a Hall of Famer. But there's more to his game, man. Like there's easily fixable flaws that can help him become a great winning player who can sustain success in his 30s, especially as his athleticism diminished. I mean, look at Westbrook's career. He is stellar cutting to the rim, yet it's not something he does enough. It's something he should and could easily do more. His shot selection, as we just talked about, is horrific.

If he's just more selective with the shots that he's taking, I think that can help him. He has improved over his careers, a spot-up shooter, and he should be commended for that, but his shot selection has not improved. He shows flashes of being a lockdown defender, yet he's never been consistent because he doesn't focus off ball and because he exhausts so much energy on offense. and it's just so annoying because those are all fixable things. His habits have not changed this entire decade. And at this point, I don't have confidence that they ever are going to change.

It's just not something that you can expect. And so when you look at the state of the Oklahoma City Thunder, Stephen Adams looking like a shell of his former self, making $25 million over the next two seasons, Dennis Schroer making $15 million over the next two seasons, Paul George having a player option in 2021, no cap space to add $1,000, top free agent talent, no cap space to add shooters or anything that you would ideally need

around Westbrook, no flexibility with their assets since their 2020 and 22-2-1st are tied up in trades to Philly and Atlanta. What do you do with this team other than look at the guy who's been here the entire decade that has been a source of so many great moments, but also some really significant losses. I think you have to at least think about heading into the summer. What do we do with Russ? You either need to start challenging him more than you ever. had before or you need to start thinking about trading it. Good luck with that. I mean, I wrote an article coming into game five.

To me, for Oklahoma City going forward, it's two players. It's Jeremy Grant, Terrence Ferguson. Like, I know that one shot. I know. It doesn't sound like terribly encouraging, but those guys have talent. Grant's made a huge step forward this year. Ferguson's only 21. Grant's 25.

And I think if OKC's going to be a relevant team, they've got to get Grant. playing the five more. They've got to get Ferguson as more of a three-indee guy. I think both guys have some talent. Grant kind of has some Siakum in his game. He's got, he's incredible athlete. He can defend four positions.

I mean, he's got a decent shooter. He can put the ball on the floor. I want to see Jeremy Grant taking the next step forward. And then Terrence Ferguson, it's really his rookie season. He skipped college, went to Australia for a year,

didn't play as a rookie. This is year two. He's now starting. He shot three as well this year. He's got a good frame. My understanding he's a pretty good kid. He works hard. He's from Dallas represent.

To me, like, those are the guys for Oklahoma City going forward. I want to develop more. And I want to see them get smaller and more versatile, more flexible around Westbrook. I want to see Adams less at the five. I want to see him more of a platoon player. To me, like, at the very least, you've, like, can you imagine if they had Brooke Lopez in this team? Like, you've got to give some shooting at the five because Westbrook, not only is he, like, not a good shooter. He's not a good finisher either. He needs space inside. Like,

Westbrook, if he goes, if he's going three on one, his rim numbers are horrible. They've been for a while. Like, you've got to open the floor for him. And to me, that's the key for them going forward is playing Grant at the five more, developing him, making him in. That's your only chance, in my opinion. You know, the interesting thing is I've seen some stuff on, on Twitter during the series about how Westbrook doesn't finish as well at the rim anymore, how he's not, you know, shooting as well. His at rim numbers are pretty much identical to what they've been, the past four or five years. Yeah, anymore. He's always had a problem with that. Yeah, always. And what would help him is, as you're saying, more spacing. I do think,

I'm not saying to trade Russell Westberg. I'm just saying it's something to think about, having in the back of your mind. I think the number one thing you try doing is flipping Stephen Adams somewhere else and trying to change the makeup of your team, more grant of the five, or just having another floor spacer next to Jeremy Grant. So more similar to Milwaukee, as you're saying, like they have with Brooke Lopez and Ursula Militiusova and Nicola Myritsch, all their floor spacing bigs. I would love Miratich. That would be awesome in Oklahoma?

I don't know that's possible. Well, that'd be a great pickup for them. Well, and that's the issue, man, right? It's like with their cap situation, I don't know how you find these players on the free agent market. You need to either hit it with the draft, but the issue is they don't have their 2020 pick. They don't have their 2022 pick. So those picks are tied up either in going to another team or you can't trade it

because of the stipend role. So on the trade market, you're restricted, on the free agency market, you're restricted. It's really hard to find avenues for Oklahoma City to really change their entire roster unless somebody's willing to take a risk on Stephen Adams, despite his down year with two years left. Maybe a team was willing to gamble on his history as a player, but any team that's looking to add has to be thinking the same things that we're talking about. Is Steve Adams really the center that you want at $25 million in this? in today's league. I don't think so.

Yeah, he's a, I mean, he's a platoon center. I guess they had their draft pick this year, right? I think this is kind of a good transition. So we're talking about, you know, the pull-up three in the series. And to me, that's been the story of the first round, is Garter to shoot pull-up threes. If you look around the league, all the best teams now, it seems like their lead ball handlers,

I've got pull-up, our pull-up three shooters. You got Stefan Golden State, Damon, Portland, Murray in Denver. You got obviously you got Hardin in Houston. You got Kyrie in Boston. Lowry in Toronto. Really the only teams without like pull-up three pick and roll guards or Milwaukee and Philadelphia.

And they obviously have freakish amount of talent on the front court. So to me, like, I think I'm looking at this draft right now. And I feel like I want to, let's talk about the guys who shoot pull-up threes. I got a great quote. I had a story on Seth Kern never ran a couple years ago. I got a great quote from this. I think about the draft a lot. He said, the game was about putting the ball in the hole and getting buckets.

If you can shoot the ball and you can score, there's a spot a few in the league. There's less banged that ever been before. It's about having basketball skill now. So let's talk about some of these guys who might become pull-up three shooters in the NBA. That's really one of the things about you and I have both been thinking about in these playoffs is this, especially the Damien Liller versus Russell Westbrook matchup is sort of a reflection of the debate that all occur between John Morant from Murray State and Darius Garland from Vanderbilt. two completely different point guards that are going to be drafted in the lottery.

John Morant, the guy who reflects Westbrook driving to the rim, getting to the basket. Garland is more the guy that's going to be pulling up from the perimeter, two different types of players who are similar in talent. But one of them, Garland, seems to at least fit a little bit more of what you want from point guards in today's league. Yeah, so I went back and watched his four games this week. I really hadn't watched them for that. this guy can score like it's nothing KOC. He can get buckets, man.

It's unbelievable. The ball's on a string. His shot, like, it's a pure shot. It goes right in. And I was watching him, obviously. So he played four games. He played against Liberty, which is a good team. Winthrop, whatever.

Then USC and Alcorn State. And those two teams play a lot of zone. So it's a very, very limited sample size. But man, when Darius Garland plays against a man defense, it was ridiculous. They had no chance of guarding him because he could score from anywhere on the floor, and he was a great dribble at ball handler, too.

I mean, I was really, really impressed his offensive scoring ability. And it feels like he's going to walk into the league with the ability to do that right away. Absolutely. I think with Garland, it's pretty clear that he's the better shooter of him in Morant. His ability to shoot off the catch, ability to shoot off the dribble, off of movement. He can come, somebody who I think long term can come off screens and handoffs and be able to shoot from distance. Whereas with John Morant, if you look at his numbers and his two years at Murray, state. He shot 22% on 175 catch and shoot three pointers. He shot 34% on 70 pull-up threes.

But a lot of those pull-up threes are because defenders are going under screens, daring him to shoot. He has a slow release with a low, low release point on his shot that I'm not totally confident is going to translate to the NBA level against longer, quicker, more athletic defenders. It's going to be a hurdle for Morant early in his career unless he makes some tweaks to his shooting mechanics, not even tweaks, but maybe needs to overhaul his shooting mechanics. And anytime you're bringing that up with any young player, with a point guard especially. Exactly. It's a serious question mark. And I like Morant a lot with his just unbelievable passing vision, his downhill pick and roll ability, his athleticism. But I do

wonder if Darius Garland, when it comes to continuing to evaluate these players over the coming weeks and months leading up to the draft, if Garland's the guy that ends up leapfrogging ahead of Morant because of his shooting ability and he still has very good passing ability as well. Well, here's the numbers. So these numbers, obviously, with Garland playing four games, are really small, but they're kind of crazy. So this year, in the pick and roll, Jal was a 56th percentile player shooting off the dribble. He was 67th percentile. Garland was 92nd percentile on the pick and roll and 99th percentile shooting off the dribble. I mean, that guy can really score.

And I was thinking about J. I remember the Florida State game. You look at that game. He had like four or five pull-up threes, and everyone was like, man, Jaws is the future. And then he shot like two of 15 in the lane because Florida State was so much bigger than him, more athletic than him.

And they really made him into a jump shooter. And that's what's not the strength of his game right now. And they're almost kind of like opposite prospects, right? Like Jaws so well rounded on offense, but the jump shots to question. Whereas Garland's got this great jump shot. Everything else is to question. Are you concerned all about his passing?

I know it's only four games, but he did have kind of like more turnover as an assist in college. No, I'm not. You know, I think it's something to keep in mind. But I did watch back those games as well. And I think he showed creativity as a passer Garland, that is. He showed the ability to throw lobs and some difficult cross court passes. And a lot of those, when it comes to assist turnover ratio, it's difficult, especially with a small sample because he made some great passes where his teammates, just did not hit shots.

Yeah, that team was not very skilled for sure. They went 018 without Garland once he got hurt. Yeah, I mean, I wish we could have seen more of Garland because he's a bit of an unknown. You would like to have seen more of him.

But I think he projects as more of the Damian Lillard type. Maybe he ends up being only Jeff Teague. But he projects, he has a lane to become a Lillard type, whereas Morant to me is more of a John Wall type, maybe a Mitchell, Dennis Smith,

junior, we have those as the comparisons on our NBA draft guide for Morantz. Both are really good prospects. It's just with Morant, he has the question of the jump shot, which in today's league, as you just said with the guards, is the most important skill. And I would feel hesitant to draft Morant's with the number two pick. I have him third in my board right now. And it wouldn't surprise me if I move him down, just based off the needs of today's league and the skills that actually matter most at the point guard position. Yeah, I think he's a safer pick, but gwatching garlands, I'm like talking myself into him. Okay, this is going to sound crazy.

But in terms of the ability to score that easily and like a very limited college sample size, he had some kareen in his game, how he was scoring. He does. He does. He does. When Kareen, we played 11 games, but you watch them in college, it was like, this guy can just score like it's nothing. It doesn't even matter.

And that's a flight with Garland. I feel like Garland, at the very least, could be a Lou Williams, Mo Williams kind of player. Like to me, if he stays healthy, his scoring ability to keep him the league no matter what. Absolutely. And with Morant, I think it would be a different conversation if you were a plus defender, but he's not. No, no. He's a minus defender. And even if he's somebody who starts putting an effort, if his fundamentals improve,

he still does not project as a plus defender because he's so thin in the upper and lower body. And to be fair, Garland does not project as necessarily a plus defender either. They're both really small. And like the thing with Morant, the wall thing, like he's not as big as well. He's not athletic as well. Like he's a little bit of a different player. Like defensively, both those guys are kind of question mark.

And that's why to me, the guy I keep coming back to, I know he's got flaws, but I wonder about Kobe White, man. He's the biggest of the three. He's a really good shooter. I think there's some real upside there. And I wonder if he could become the best guard in this draft down the road. Yeah. With Kobe White, I have a lot of them's feelings on him.

I have him ranked 16th right now. Just to give some comparisons. We have Jamal Murray and Brandon Knight as two shades of comparisons for Kobe White. And his shooting ability is undeniable at the college level when it comes to spotting up. I think with him, my concern is again comes to the shooting mechanics. He has a low release that affected him off the dribble in college. And the NBA, I think that will be more apparent, again, against longer, more athletic defenders. He's somebody who I think needs to at least change his shooting release to a higher point.

like Stefan Curry did in high school. His dad had him change, released from his chin up to his forehead. This is a subtle change could open things up for Kobe White. And there's no denying he has touch on his floaters. He's an 80% shooter from the free throw line. He's a great spot-up shooter. He has the ability to shoot with just a subtle tweak.

Whereas with John Morant's, it's a little bit more of an extreme change that he needs to make. But Moran can too, man. I just'll tie it back to him. He shot 80% plus from the free throw line. He has touch on his floaters and touch around the basket. There's a chance he can. But anytime you're talking about shooting mechanics,

there's no guarantee that the player either has the willingness to do it or no guarantee that they have the right trainer who does it or somebody's even going to have them do it at all with anybody who needs to change their mechanics regardless of position. But I'm with you with Kobe White's appeal, especially in the mid to late lottery. And I think with Jha, what you're gambling on, is like the work ethic, the character,

and the basketball intelligence. Like in terms of his basketball IQ, he's at a different level in Garland or Kobe White. Like, Jaws are a really, really smart player. And you hope the right system, the right coach, to right organization, probably not your sons at this point. But somewhere where he can be really like developed.

You wander, you know, three, four, five years from now. Are any of the guards in this draft that you kind of stand out to you in terms of this kind of player? For what it's worth of Morant, everything I've heard about it, is good check, check for character. I don't think that's a question with him that he's going to work hard.

It's about getting the right teaching that's going to matter for him. But other guards, I think the guy that obviously comes first to mind is Carson Edwards. Oh, yeah. Has to be him, right, Charks? I mean, it looked like Dame out there

in the NCAA tournament. I think against, like, UVA, he was shooting like 30 foot off screens, like just pulling up from anywhere. I feel like Carson, he's a pretty solid Patty Mills guy. And he'll stick in the league somewhere as a pull-up three shooter for sure.

I don't know if he has much of a floor game though or defensive ability. Yeah, I think that's ultimately, I mean, those are the strides that he needs to make as an actual passer handling the game, controlling the game as a playmaker in addition to his scoring ability. That's why I don't have him in my top 30. I think he could easily end up being one of the best 20 guys in this draft, but I wouldn't feel comfortable taking him in the top 30, lacking so much playmaking ability. But he's somebody that does fit that construct for sure.

Yeah, Edwards, to me, I think I'll have him top 30 because I feel like at least he has a role. He's a guy. He goes to a wrong team. He could follow out a league really fast. But you put him somewhere with a bigger wing. He can play off the ball. Kind of that Brent Forbes, Patty Mills role. I bet he could have some big games in his career. In terms of wings, you've got Romeo Langford on this list. I'm not a big Langford guy. What do you think with him in terms of this kind of player? I'm not a big Langford guy either, to be, to be honest. I have him 15th right now on my board. but I do think he's somebody, again, to keep in mind with his ball handling ability, with his

scoring instincts, I think there's a chance long term. He's somebody that can turn into a shotmaker for you. He's even flashed a little bit of playmaking skill, even though that wasn't his primary role as a freshman in Indiana. I think he's somebody that long term has a chance to become one of those shot making guards slash wings for you. Similar to like we just talked about with Kobe White. I wouldn't bank on it happening. But in the late lottery, he's somebody that I think you can gamble on

and hope that that develops for him over time. But it's hard to find players that can actually do that, Jarks. Well, that's why guys like, the area Scarlon are going to jump up this draft because it's hard to find that skill set. Like, it's just not,

that's the way the league is going. There's not many guys you can do it. And that's why they're going to go high in the draft. I mean, shooting has become a premium at every single position. It's going to be the thing that that's, it's not going away. moving forward, it's just going to become more and more important as the years go by. You need to

shoot at every single position on the floor until a day comes where the rules change and the priorities change for what is needed out of a player or until there's a shack where you need to have a big bruising defender in order to defend him. It's hard to foresee this changing. It's going to only increase every single year as it has been for quite some time now. You need to be able to shoot off the dribble as a guard. You need to be able to space the floor as a big. That's not changing. changing anytime soon. Well, I mean, I reminded me when you were saying about Dame when he was like shooting 40% from my 35 feet, like take more of those shots.

That's what's going to happen. Yeah, more and more players are going to start taking those shots. Let's move on to the other Western Conference series last night. But before we do that, Charks, I want to get to our today's sponsor. It's Turro. Yeah, I love Turrow. I've been using it. I've on vacation lately.

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What more do we need to know? Yeah, exactly. You have Charks's approval of Turr. Charks, I'm curious. On Turro, they have so many different types of cars. Of these four, which one are you choosing on your next road trip? Tesla, BMW, Ferrari, or Porsche? Oh, man.

KOC, I don't make your kind of money. Pye, the Tesla. I missed a blogger, man. Yeah, I might go for like a Hyundai. That's probably what I would go for personally. But you do have the choice of taking any type of exotic car. And the cool part is about Turo is they can, the host can deliver cars straight to you. How convenient is that? Download the Turro app that's T-U-R-O on the App Store or Google Play or visit

Turo.com. Get $25 off your first trip when you sign up for Turro and use promo code Ringer at checkout. Terms do apply. Anyway, last night the Spurs and Nuggets played and Denver has just managed to turn the series around Charks. They won 108-90-n 908 last night after winning game 4, 117 to 103. What change for Denver in this series to go from early on, it looked like Denver, looked like they could easily be upset by San Antonio, but looking like this is probably going to end on Thursday night in game six. I mean, I got to give a shout out to Mike Malone. This is why I like I'm taught. I always talk about lineup adjustments. You've got to be flexible. So before game four, Malone made one two major, one major adjustment. So he benched Will

Barton and put Torrey Craig in the lineup. And this had a domino effect. So already in the series, He's playing Gary Harris on DeRosen, which left Jamal Murray and Derek White. And as we all saw, Derek White was like a superstar for those three games. But by changing the lineups, taking Barton, a poor defender out of the lineup and putting Craig a good one in, he could put Craig on DeRosen, and he moved Gary Harris to Derek White. And Gary Harris has totally taken one out of the series. He's been incredible the whole series. Gary Harris' defense really has been like the difference.

So when Gary Harris on DeRosen, Drozen is shooting six for 23. when Gary Harris on White, White's shooting 1 for 6. When Jamal Murray was on Derek White, White was 23 for 31. Wow. That is unbelievable. Not only is he not even taking shots

against Gary Harris. Harris is taking on the series so badly. And by the way, moving Will Barton to the bench, he said he wasn't happy about it. He admitted that to the media. He said he said that straight to Michael Malone that he wasn't happy about it. But he came out last night and performed great.

17 points on 711 shooting with three assists and five rebounds. he is as a spark-pug player who can come off the bench for you and get buckets. I think it balanced the lineups so much more for Denver. As you said, putting Tori Craig allowed them to put guys in the right matchups on both ends of the floor. And Barton coming off the bench, at least in game five, unleashed him. And Jamal Murray, he is somebody over the course of this series.

He's gotten better each game, it seems like to me. It's partially how Denver's used him. A lot of dribbles. dribble handoff and off screen actions. But Murray himself seems to have grown more and more comfortable each game against a stellar defender like Derek White. Yeah, and I think too helping him has been not guarding White on defense because he can save energy.

So he's kind of hiding on Bryn Forbes. And those are the kind of things like, like you were saying about Barton, I likeing that. I feel like a lot of coaches don't have the respect in the locker room or they're too afraid of their players to make these kind of adjustments. And that's where like a guy like Malone, it's that ability to command respect. and get guys to buy into new roles. And that, to me,

that separates the best coaches in the league. I think most coaches can see this stuff. They can see, oh, player X being this matchup, but they're like, oh, man, I can't make the move. The locker room won't go for. He's too important a player. I can't sell this move to that player. And to me, like, what separates the best NBA coaches

is being able not only identify the matchups, but to sell your players on changing roles within a series. And if you can't do that, if you can't come respect to the locker room, then you're just hurting your team. Absolutely. And I think it also speaks to the importance of having the right veterans on a team as well. Will Barton talked after the game last night. And this is from Harrison Wind at BSN Denver. He tweeted out a quote from Will Barton, where he praised Isaiah Thomas in the example that he set where he has not played at all. But Will Barton said that Isaiah has

continued to work hard as if he is getting consistent minutes. He has not complained. He has been nothing but a good teammate. And Barton said, you know, as, as, as frustrating as it's been for me, I look at him and it's like you got to just continue moving on, moving forward and continue doing your thing within your circumstances. And I think Will Barton did a good job of that last night. That's not the main reason why they won the game. That comes down to the star players in Denver, Nicola Yokich. Oh, he's been doing it, Gary Harris. But it's nice to see the depth players on Denver perform well, even when they're playing a role they might necessarily want to. But yeah, Nicola Yokic last night in this entire series for that manner, has been absolutely

outstanding for the Nuggets. He's really guarded Lamarckos-ald as well, too, when he's been on him. Like, he's been a great player in both ends of the floor. The spurs have not really attacked, not really got taken advantage on defense. And to me, that's what I'm wondering now is like, do the spurs have adjustments? They've really been stragg in the last two games. Yeah, I wonder if you're San Antonio at this point, I'm not exactly, sure what you can do unless you're changing the entire way you play the game because if you think

about Denver, the way to exploit Yokic is what we might see next round, assuming Denver moves past San Antonio against Portland with Damian Lillard and C.J. McCollum trying to pull Nicola Yokic as far away from the room as they possibly can with their two backcourt players. I'm not sure San Antonio can do that and they're just not that type of team. And it comes a running pick and roll with a guy who can pull up and shoot threes. De Mardo Rosen can run pick and roll. He can play make for you can pull up for mid-range, but he's not a three-point shooter.

Yeah. The pull-up two is not really scared anybody anymore. It's not. And so if you can't change your entire personnel, you can't change your entire system. So is there any type of tweak that you see San Antonio at least trying to make, John? Yeah, to me, what jumps out to me

and looking at the numbers, it's like they have so few guys who can space the floor. Like there's so many times I feel like where De Rosen gets into the lane then he passes out to Rudy Gay, but then Gay goes back into the lane too. There's not enough guys so you can space the floor for you.

So in this series, Gay is minus 19 and 120 minutes when he's on the court. It's unbelievable. To me, the adjustment for Pop needs to make. Instead of like dropping your one-liner is doing quips, how about you play Bertons

with White, DDR, and LMA? So in this series, your three best players, Derek White, DeRose, and Lamarcus. They've played six minutes with Bertons and 35 with Gay. to me, if San Antonio's coming back in the series, they've got to open up

the floor for their best players. That means putting their best shooters next to their best players. Does San Antonio need to change their system moving forward? Do you need to start forcing Lamarcus Alder to take pick and pop threes? Do you need to get Demard de Rosen back to shooting threes like he was towards the end with Toronto?

Or is this just the way it's going to have to be when you have two throwback players in Aldrin and DeRosen? And it's more about setting up for when those guys are gone. Well, here's the thing. Everyone's talking about when DeJante Murray comes back. And I like Murray as a good player. If DeJante Murray is attacking the lane, you better get to Rose than an LMA out of there.

They better be space in the floor form, but there's really going to be no space in the court. Spurs are in a tough spot, man. I mean, they had an unbelievable season. The fact they had a top defense with this personnel speaks to that coaching staff system, the culture there. It speaks to the effort and the intensity of the players to, to perform at that level on defense. But offensively, despite the numbers during the regular season,

I don't feel any confident that that type of style is going to translate to the postseason for the foreseeable future. And so for San Antonio, Demardo Rosen and Lamarcus Aldridge are on the final year of their guaranteed contracts next year. They have player options for the 2021 season. And Aldridge is non-guaranteed for that year at 24 million. San Antonio's entire roster could change drastically over the next two years. It could become Derek White and Desjante Murray's team.

Jacob Pertil as well would have played a good game last night. Lonnie Walker. They have tons of young players where they can build forward. But right now with this era with De Rosen and Aldridge, it seems to me just one final gasp of this old school playing style. Okay, I think like I'm looking at the numbers right now. So Bertons in the series has the best net rating. He's plus four and 79 minutes.

When he's off the floor, they're minus 12, 160 minutes. I need more Bertons in the series. And then my other question for you, KOC, how much longer does Popovich have left? That's the other question, right? Like, he's got Team USA. He's really old now. I know there's rumors out there.

He might step down at some point in the next couple of years. I wonder. There's the rumors that it could be after the season. Yeah. There's the whole Bill Selfing that's out there. Yep. Yep.

I mean, if you're pop... Like, why make adjustments, right? I've done between my whole career. I'm probably arguably the most successful coach of all time. I am who I am. I can go coach Durant and Steph and Team USA. Do I really want to spend the next two years of my life telling the Rosen to shoot threes? I don't know if that's really the best use of his time at this point. You mentioned the Bill Self thing for people who aren't aware of that. What is that charts? Oh, there's rumor out there. So Bill Self, Kansas coach, Hall of Famer, he was roommates

with R.C. Buford in college. And the rumor has been out there is that possibly he might move into the Spurs role next year as the head coach with Pop stepping down. Yeah, it is interesting the past week or so, or past two weeks or so, there's been a little bit of, you know, scuttle butt that Bill Self could be eyeing the NBA. Same with Tom Izzo as well. And with a couple of job openings right now, the NBA, who knows? I would be a little bit surprised with San Antonio hired someone externally that hasn't been in the franchise for years now. But it's something to at least keep in mind if Popovich does end up retiring. Yeah, I mean, Bill Self, he's got these bag men in college getting that's a risky game.

these days. He might need to get out while he still can. You don't want to wait too long. You don't want to wait too long. Now it could be the time. There's two other games last night. Let's go through those really quickly. Philadelphia ended the Brooklyn Nets with a 122 to 100 win last night. After Brooklyn's initial win, this series wasn't really that close charts. With Brooklyn moving forward, this has clearly become Karris Lavert's team. He's the best player on Brooklyn. I mean, because this season, so Lavert started the early hot. He had that major injury.

Then at that point, Russell became Russell's team. And Lavert came back like in March. It took him on the going again. It seemed like he really had trouble adjusting to being the number two option for DeAngelo Russell. And to me going forward, like, I think Russell could be a good player, but I got to make everyone know, like, this is Karis Lavert is the guy, not DeAngelo. And I wonder if that's how that's going to play in the locker room. Yeah, with DeAngel Russell, it brings up a difficult decision for

Brooklyn this summer. Russell will be a restricted free agent coming off a really, really good season, averaging 21 and 7. He's most improved player candidate, only 23 years old. There's more upside in his game as he continues to age and his three-point shot improves. His shot selection improves. His at-room finishing, you would hope, continues to improve as well like it did in the latter half of the season. But with Russell, there's no guarantee of any of that. There's none. He could continue to be the player that he is today. And with the season that he had, he's somebody that's probably going to get a pretty wealthy offer sheet. Is there a price that you'd be willing to spend on Russell if you're Brooklyn Charks? Or is he somebody that you're just giving whatever it takes because you don't

have many other options? See, I think you can't afford to burn the asset, right? At the very least, Russell's a big pick and roll guard who's really young. The odds are he's going to get better with time. He's really improved over the last few years in Brooklyn. What I was thinking like, where else would he make sense. What about like Indiana or Utah? Would that be interesting backcourt playing with Ola Dippa or Donovan Mitchell? I'd like Indiana. Indiana would be a nice

back court. I think especially because Ola Depot's defense as well would help cover for some of Russell's limitations. Not that he was awful on defense, but he's not necessarily a plus defender. I would like that backcourt a lot. Yeah, I think any team that has cap space that is looking for a

dynamic back court with multiple ball handlers, Russell can be a fit. And that's one of the things when Lavert when Lavert went down the season for Brooklyn, Russell had to become the guy. But as we saw with him in Ohio State, he's also somebody that can run off some screens for you who can spot up and drive closeouts. Russell can play off ball. I don't have any concerns about that with him moving forward. I don't think he's somebody that needs to have the ball in his hands in order to have success. It's just more about. Yeah. I guess that's the question. Exactly. It's the question does he want to? But also how much does the improvement continue?

on the ball. What level is he actually reached? Because as we've talked about on this podcast during the season, despite his improvements towards the end of the year, he is not somebody that draws a lot of files. He drew files at a historically low rate this season, considering his volume of shots attempted. That is an area where he needs to make drastic improvements when he's never been a guy who either gets to the basket or draws a lot of files around the rim. He settles for a lot of mid-range jumpers and shots in the floater area and also spot up threes when he's not really an elite shooter. He's a good shooter, not an elite shooter. So that's going to be a difficult question

for Brooklyn heading into the summer, depending on the offer sheet that he ends up receiving. I'm kind of optimistic, though, like, you look at their core as Levert, Russell, Alan Curricks. They're all under 25. They all fit well together. Like, this team to me,

maybe it's just faint praise, but it reminds me of those early Raptors teams with the Rosen and Lowry when they were first getting going. Like, I could see Brooklyn as like a 51 team for the, I think at the very least they're going to be a contender. The question is, can they make a big splash in free agency? Is that realistic for Brooklyn, or are they got to still build it from within? I think they'll at least be in the conversation. But that's another big question, too.

I can't imagine. They're not going to be a destination for Kevin Durant types. But if you're Brooklyn, are you willing to spend on a Jimmy Butler? That's the guy I was thinking of, right? I wonder how that'll play out with Butler the next round. He'd fit their system pretty well. Perfectly. I mean, Butler loves it. loves running pick and roll and Brooklyn runs just as much amount of pick and roll as anybody else in the league. It would be a great fit systematically for Jimmy Butler. The question for me would be, is that the right choice for Brooklyn? Or do you continue building young with this roster that is on the rise?

I like your comparison to the early Toronto teams. Maybe they can continue to grow together. And Russell and Lavert, those two can coexist. Absolutely. If they both buy into playing on ball and off ball and sharing the load, it can work. the question is going to be, what do they spend their cap space on? If they continue building young or if they're going to splurge on somebody that maybe they shouldn't like a Jimmy Buller.

It's tough because at some point they got to pay all these young guys, right? Like, this is their one of them to make a move. So not if you've got to pay DeAngelo, you got to pay Lavert, you have to pay Allen. So like the iron is hot right now. Can they make the right move? They've made all the good ones so far, but they've been watching this offseason for sure. Well, I mean, that window can shut so quickly. You have Russell and Ronday Hollis Jefferson up this summer, and then the following summer,

Karris Lavert will be up, and then Jared Allen the summer after that. So your window for signing a guy is probably 2019 or 2020. After that, it gets difficult. Obviously, it's hard to project so far ahead, but time can run out pretty, pretty quickly. Moving on to the other series, the Raptors and Magic ended things last time. Toronto won the game, 115 to 96. Once again, just like with Brooklyn, this series was really not that close.

I mean, it was far less competitive than Brooklyn, Philadelphia was. Orlando had their moment in game one, but ever since then, they've fallen flat on their face charts. Yeah, that game one curse in Toronto, it looks really real now because how bad they'd be able to learn the rest of the series.

Something is going on, those game ones in Toronto. I don't know what the deal is, but we've got a Raptors correspondent Danny Chowell get to the bottom of that. You look at Orlando, they've got some, tough choice to make this off season. I don't really sure what they do. Like Vucevich,

how much does he get, can you pay him? What happens to Obama if you pay Vucevich? Again, similar to the D'Angelo-Russell conversation, what else is going to be out there for him? I think if you look at the market with what a guy like Clint Capella got, who is a very good center, I think he makes around 17 or 18 million annually after it was a, you know, not a great market for him. Vucevich is a more versatile offensive player. I would assume he would, I would, I would assume he'll be in around the same range, 17, 18, 19 million. What, are you thinking more or less? Who's paying Vouch, that kind of money?

I don't know. I don't know, but he's, but Vouchovich is a, is a good player. He had a good season. He's a playmaking center who can space the floor. He, he does the things that you and I just talked about earlier in the podcast with his ability to space the floor, his ability to playmake, um, and be an offensive hub for a team. He's not your main guy, but he's somebody who I think if you plug him in,

He can enhance other players. Vusevich is a good center. And I can see somebody be willing to pay him in that range. As for who, I don't know. It's hard to project ahead. So much depends on the draft as well and other types of trades that are made. So you would take the under, if I'm setting the over under at, say, $17 million annually for Vusovic. Unless Orlando pays him, which I could see them paying him.

I could see them making the safe play. He's the leader of the franchise. He's the face of the franchise at this point. I can see him just paying the guy. It's similar to what you said earlier with Russell. You're retaining the asset. If you're retaining him at a fair price point like that, he's somebody that you could eventually trade.

He's only 28 years old. He'll be 29 next season. But again, a difficult question for Orlando heading into the summer. How much do you spend on Nicola Vucevich? Yeah, they've got so many guys who'd be really good at the five. They're just kind of overloaded there. Then you got Aaron Gordon. Do you think he's a trade piece?

or is he like a foundation piece going forward? I have heard of somebody that could be a trade piece. I'm not so sure anything would happen with him. I'm not sure what his value is. But he's an interesting fit in the construct of this team. I like Aaron Gordon. Yeah, I would love him somewhere else playing with a good point guard. I feel like he's a guy.

I think you got an article about this early in the season, KOC, we're like, if you're asking executives who are the most undervalued player is or guy who could explode somewhere else, I think he said Aaron Gordon. Like, he's really improved a lot as a player. He's still really young. Yeah, only 23. He's younger than Siakum. Isn't that crazy?

Like Siakum dominated the matches. He's 25. Gordon's in the league like five years. He's 23. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's the one thing to keep in mind with Aaron Gordon. He's been in the league forever for five years now. That was just his fifth year with the Orlando Magic.

He's gotten, you know, better each season in some ways. I think he plateaued a little bit from his fourth year to his fifth year. But part of that was due to his role. Part of that was due to the situation. and a changing system. But Aaron Gorgon's gotten better for the most part each season. And I think the one thing he did get better at this past season was his playmaking that he flashed in college at Arizona did start to manifest a little bit this past season with

Orlando. And that's something I'd like to see a little bit more from him moving forward. A little bit more playmaking in the pick and roll or from the high post. He has that ability in his game that should be developed moving forward, especially of his three-point shot and scoring doesn't continue to develop. Maybe the passing will. Well, that's the thing, too, if he had that point guard, if he could be the Draymond of someone's Steph. Exactly.

If he had the point card who could get double off the screen, Aaron Gordon, four, three is to be real nasty. Yeah, he averaged a 3.7 assist this year, career high. He's a really smart player. It just feels like Orlando. They've got a lot of guys who would be good somewhere else playing off a star. They have no star. I don't know where that star is going to come from. But you know who they do, have charts.

Oh. They have Markell Fultz. Here we go. like, I'm partially tongue and cheek here, but he is an X factor that they have on the roster that they got for a low cost. And Markle Foltz may never be a success. He may never play a game again for that matter. But he is somebody that for Orlando, their need for a ball handling, playmaking point

guard, they have one on their roster that flash potential just two years ago as the number one pick at Washington. Markle Fultz is at least a guy when they don't have they don't have a lottery pick because they made the playoffs. Obviously they'll be drafting 16th. At least they did add a young point guard

that has a chance if he's able to fix his severe shooting issues to being the point guard that this team needs as well as a versatile defender. I was thinking can he be MCW at worst? If the shot doesn't happen, can he at least be a big point guard who kind of posts up and gets through him on a second unit?

That to me is like the floor. if he will just, just get him on the court. I don't understand that part. Like, I feel like he can play basketball right now. I just can't just put him on the court. It starts there. Yeah, I mean, that's a difficult issue. We saw with Fultz, with the Sixers.

He showed some flashes of what he did in college with, not to talk about Markell Fultz during the playoffs too much, but the pick and roll ability was there a little bit. It always comes back to Markelle. Okay, O'SC. Don't worry about it. We're at minute 56. Let's go talk about Markle.

It's fine. Yeah, I mean, with Markle Foltz, I think for Orlando, he's absolutely worth the gamble. And maybe he turns into a Michael Carter Williams. I'm not sure there's room for two Michael Carter Williams on one roster, though. Well, I'm saying like MCW, whatever. Let's bring a younger player and do the same thing. I root for the best for Markle Fultz moving forward.

Do you have any lasting thoughts, charts on the Eastern Conference series is moving forward? I can't wait, man. This first round, it was kind of whatever, but man, Philly, Toronto, Milwaukee, Boston. Let's go. This is going to be awesome. These are going to be some battles, man. I'm not ready to make predictions that those series won't start until Saturday or Sunday at the earliest. But it would not surprise me if both of the series both went seven games.

I hope so. I really hope so. It'll be a battle, man. And then in the Western Conference as well. Houston Golden State, oh my God. Golden State should maybe be able to take care of business tonight. And then obviously Houston and Utah as well, both three-one series. We could be getting playoff games Saturday and Sunday with Golden State versus Houston.

Denver versus Portland, Milwaukee versus Boston, Toronto versus Philly. Man, this is incredible stuff. I cannot wait for the second round. First round, not many competitive series, but this second round and moving forward, playoffs could be pretty unbelievable from here moving forward, Charges. It's like the NCAA tournament. If you have too many good upsets early, it kind of sours the later rounds. So we're building slow this year.

Every one of those series could be awesome. Like even Portland, Denver, if that happens, would be a fasting matchup of Yokic versus stained. That would be incredible. I cannot wait. I'm looking forward to breaking down that series down next week, especially. The Yokage versus Portland pick and roll. That's going to be a lot of fun. It's all we have time for today, though, Charks. That was fun.

Yeah, shout out Danny Chow. But we'll see award he's going to win, or maybe he's not going to win it. I forget. He's nominated for some great award. Look it up. Remember what it was called? He was nominated for the best article on dining and traveling by the James Beard Foundation. So, congrats to Danny Chow for that. Multitalented

popular food writer. unbelievable NBA writer, unbelievable editor. I'm excited for Danny and hope he wins, but it won an honor to even be nominated. Totally. We got an award-winning podcast now, technically. I'm looking forward to having Danny back next week

and looking forward to the second round of the playoffs. Thanks, John. Yeah, have a good one, guys. And thank you for listening to the Ringer NBA show. Please give us a five-star rating on iTunes and share the podcast with your friends. If you like it, be sure to check out the ringer.com, too. We have loads and loads of NBA playoff content.

including a feature by Paulo Yuggetti on the Clippers rookie backcourt. Plus, we have our NBA draft and NFL draft guides and tons of Game of Thrones content. Special shout out to Bobby Wagner for producing the show. Thanks again for listening. Peace out.