The Ringer NBA Show - De’Aaron Fox Becomes Wemby’s Numéro Deux. Plus, Trying to Find the Logic in the Luka Doncic Deal. | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos are back to give their thoughts on De’Aaron Fox getting traded to the Spurs and Zach LaVine getting sent to the Kings (3:50). They give their thoughts on each side of the trade. Then they take a look at the Luka Doncic–Anthony Davis trade. Wos gives his initial thoughts, and then they discuss the news that’s come out since the trade and what these teams will look like moving forward (32:49). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping, everybody? Logan Murdoch here from Real On the Ringer NBA show, and I want to invite you to pull up and kick it with Roger Bell, Howard Beck, and myself during All-Star weekend for our live podcast. We're going to be at the Stork Punchline Comedy Club in San Francisco on Saturday, February 15th at 2 p.m. pre-gaming all the all-star festivities, and you never know who might stop by. Get your tickets now by heading over to ringer.com backslash events. That's ringer.com backslash events. to see you there. Welcome to group chat.

I am Justin Verrier. And joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Was. I would say about this time last week, we were gearing up to talk about Drew Eubanks and the cap implications of a swap of PJ Tucker to the jazz.

And you banks go into the clippers. A little different. Now, Rob. Well, it turns out there were some relevant cap implications. And all of a sudden you can take Jalen Hood-Chafino. Now you can facilitate the biggest, trade in NBA history. You know, it turns out to be a pretty important precursor as things go was.

Hey, man, I'm just grateful that insane things are still possible to happen in the NBA. I think when you do what we do, we become a little bit jaded and just like, oh, nothing surprises me. Like, we're just so, like, weathered by consuming so much of this stuff all the time and talking to people and talk about different scenarios and blah, blah, blah. Like, it's just a great feeling to realize, like, they're still. you know, room to be utterly shocked by what goes on in this league. Well, so I was at home on my couch.

Devout listeners of the Ringer NBA show will know that Justin was on a date when the Luca Donchitz trade news broke. We can get into that if you would like, JV. Was, I want to know how you became aware of what was happening because you were not inside, as it were. No, I was distinctly outside. We had our event for Grammy weekends. Like, it was nicely well attended, was having a good time.

And somebody passed me their phone and was like, yo, is this real? Immediately. And I'm like, I click it. Then I'm like, all right, it's the verified charms. All right, it's the one with millions of followers. All right, it's, wait, this happened. And it was a shock.

And then the craziest thing is that, you know, our DJ and the MC, the homie V-Live, and shots at DJ Night Train, Somebody passed... That's the DJ Night Train. Somebody passed him the phone and was like, bro, this just happened. He's reading it.

He stops the party. Literally that clip on Bleacher and Sports Illustrated and all these people. Like, that was from our event. He stopped the party to literally announce. Like, he announced the train. He said, I don't even know what else to say. Play me. I can't.

He was just so shocked. He couldn't even speak anymore. So you were like Devin Booker at the Portland game. Yeah. Yes. Safe to say, the Lakers fans in attendance, we're very happy about it. Obviously, people love AD, but it's Luca Donchage. Come on.

Yeah, a little bit different. We'll get into that. I think we're going to do some reassessments after a couple days of information has trickled out in that. A lot of stuff has seemed happened pretty much since that happened Saturday night. But we got to talk about the Deer and Fox trade, which happened Sunday. And honestly, seemed totally normal, like a all-stall. Star, fringe all NBA guy going and becoming the number two for Victor Webbenyama,

the presumed face of the NBA going forward. Just seems pretty normal, Rob. I know. But the full trade, if you needed at this point, Fox and Jordan McLaughlin, go to the spurs, Zach Levine's. City, Sisiko, what are we doing here? Sosco. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Don't know him. Three first round picks, three second round picks, go to the Kings. Bulls get Zach Collins, Tray Jones, Kevin Herder, and their own 20-25 first-round pick from the Spurs. So I want to go through each team eventually. But Rob, what's like your top-line takeaway from this trade? That's all it takes to get Deerrin Fox.

And in particular, that's all it takes from the Spurs to get Deerrin Fox. I think San Antonio made out of this thing like bandits, frankly, given no Stefan Castle, no Devin Vassell, not even a Jeremy Sohan. No Atlanta unprotected first or future pick swaps included in this deal at all. And one of the first that you mentioned, Justin, that they trade is basically a fake first that's going to default into two seconds very soon. So effectively, Trey Jones, Zach Collins, Citi Sosco, two firsts and a bunch of seconds, that gets you Dier and Fox. Sign me the fuck up.

That's a great deal for this first. Yeah, I mean, this is a no-brainer, obvious move. Some people might quibble when they eventually do give this max contract extension to Fox and say, oh, is he the kind of guy who deserves a max contract extension? What I would say is next to Victor Wembeyanama, absolutely. Because you have a guy that's going to elevate everything that Fox does. And so it becomes worth getting into the Fox business, right? And so, yeah, the fact that they didn't have to give up any of their young nucleus for the guy.

And some people might quibble would say, oh, him and Castle might be duplicative or blah, blah, blah. whatever, doesn't matter. They still have all of their young guys that they've clearly been excited about for a while, gave up, you know, modest draft assets. And they get to bring in an all-star borderline fringe all-star who is still in his 20s to pair with their big man. It's just amazing, honestly, on their part. And just, you know, just that I did as Zach Levine, I guess that the league just looked at

his contract is so onerous and so unattractive. the Bulls gave them away for a hill of beans, y'all. Yeah. They, their pick was... A gentle pile of beans. Their pick was top ten protected. They were clearly going to be in the top ten. Yep.

Okay. And so this, I did it like, oh, we get our pick back. Like, you were getting that pick. And so just to get off of Levine for nothing, just like, nobody else wanted to get into Levine business. I find that to be shocking, honestly. Yeah, I think we need to do a whole reconsideration of where Zach Levine is and basically like the effects of rumor mongering and just maybe fear mongering over injuries has done

on his value and just to guys across the league. But if we're going team by team here, let's go with the spurs first because that's obviously the biggest thing here. In addition to just like the pairing of Wembe and Fox, which I think is going to work very nicely. There's some nice pick and roll stats that have been circulating around about like how good Fox is and how good Wembe can be. And just to be able to unlock that end of Wembe, I think is going to be fascinating. It's funny because I keep finding myself wanting to be like, Victor Webbenyama hasn't played with a guy like that when it's only been a year and a half with Wendy.

You just think that he's been here for six, seven years. It's just like, oh, he hasn't been with an all-star caliber point guard. Like, what can you do with that? It's like, yes, he's a very new player. But like, it's an exciting complimentary piece to pair with him for that reason. But also, I think you guys kind of hit it. The fact that the Spurs practically maintained all of the young court

that they had for when Wembe was, drafted. We got Cass. We got Vassel. We got Sohan. We got Kelden Johnson. We even have the old guard here to still rear the young guys with Barnes and CP3 just presumably moving to the bench and doing what he did in Golden State for those sorts of guys. There are options. But right now, this team is suited to make a play and running. So I love what the Spurs did in this. Let's just say that right now. Just so we're clear, all Spurs-based bets on this podcast are Nolan Void. This is a huge. This is part of it. This is part of it? Yeah, you always have the honest. option to do more.

We're not to throw that to the committee. I think this might breach legality on the bet. I think another thing about this on the spur side is when you have somebody as young as when Binyama is and it's as good as he's already shown himself to be, you can come into these negotiations from a position of ultimate strength. It's just like, bros, you see the direction our team is going. We are not desperate to make this happen immediately. And so you can come in here and ask the world of us, we don't have to do this deal.

Like, we love that Fox wants to be here with us and we think he's a good player. And we're willing to give you, you know, some level of compensation to get him in here. But I think, you know, the parameters of the deal show that the spurs are just like guys, like we will be completely fine. And they can say it with credibility just from the trajectory of their season that they are completely fine, standing pat. And the future looks amazingly bright. Yeah. The other thing I want to do here is also do an accounting of some of the draft picks that went to the Kings and then also the polls got a picked here. Because I think one thing that's happening just in trade discourse overall is we're just looking at this almost as like a dick measuring contest where it's like Rudy Gobert got five picks. And so Luca Donchis deserves 12. And it's just like what are the actual value of these picks and like what are they actually worth? There are so many picks being swapped for swaps that are now being swap swap swap that. Like, it's really tough to determine which picks are actually good picks to the point where I think the tipping point was Danny Aange basically taking his short position and then changing that for a short position on the Phoenix Suns because the Cavs future and the Wolves future looks good. And so we're just like completely discombobbled. Here's what I want to introduce here. Just like a system of evaluating picks, a simple A through a system. Okay. And if we're using this specific trade as an example, I have given the 2031 unprotected pick for the Minnesota. Timberwolves, A, B, because there's a chance down the road that that could get disastrous.

At the very least, it's so far in the future, we don't know what's going to happen. That could be a juicy pick down the road. I'll give it a B, not an A, not a sure thing. The Spurs pick that ultimately went to 2027 to the Kings. I gave it a C, you know, maybe the Spurs haven't hit their stride, but more likely than not late first. But to Rob's point about the Hornets pick, one to 14 protected this year, most likely going to be two seconds.

That's a D. It's not like a complete catastrophe, but that's a D. And so what you ended up getting was... It's not a first, though. If you want to make it enough, I'm down to make it enough as well. If we're just saying that there's no hope that it's going to be a first. I don't think there's any hope that Charlotte pick that's that protected is going to convey this year. So that is going to be a second.

So seconds are perfectly fine. And I think there is virtue in getting a boatload of seconds that can then facilitate other deals. It's not nothing. From Charlotte, which would mean it would be high seconds. Yes. Absolutely true. It's just not quite the same thing. Okay. That's the system I want to do going forward here because we're just like completely past the point where like we're actually even trading player for player. Part of the like the shock of Anthony Davis being traded for Luca is that it was like an old school like almost challenge trade. Just like we're way too deep in but that's what I propose going forward here. Do you guys like that? I do like it. For the record, Luke Luca Donchage does deserve 12 first round picks and there probably should have been more stuff involved in that. We can we can talk more about that later. But overall, I agree. We're we're missing the. We're missing.

the forest for the trees in the sense that it's just about the number of picks and not the quality of picks. That's why I point out the Atlanta deal, because there's some good stuff that the Spurs have that could have been involved in a trade like this, that a team like Sacramento could have demanded. I know we're going to talk about the Kings in a second. I actually think they did perfectly well in this deal, given their incentives and kind of where they are as a franchise, but for the Spurs to hold on to their best draft assets while giving up some decent ones, some rolls of the dice. I'm totally aligned. with you, Justin, that the Minnesota pick is probably the best actual draft asset that's being

exchanged in this deal. But overall, like, this is a perfectly reasonable pile of stuff to give up for a player of Deeran Fox's caliber. And I say that inclusive of the massive extension that is surely coming, that was alluded to, in part because, as we're putting everything in context, picks and otherwise, the Spurs have one of the lowest payrolls in the league. They have Victor Web and Yama and many of their best players on cost-controlled deals moving forward. And they will overlap with Dyer and Fox extension. So I'm not worried about the finances. I'm impressed that the Spurs still have so much to work with.

And it was also notable to me that one thing that the Spurs do still have was a pick swap. They picked up from the previous three-team trade involving these three teams, the DeMarsan deal, where they took a 231 pick swap from the Kings just for taking on Harrison Barnes, who is now a good player for their team. Solid. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the Kings then, because I think. a big part of this is that they chose Zach Levine over a big honking picks package. They got

picks, but Levine is the prize here. Was, what do you think about Levine going to Sacramento? Do you like the fit of basically forming Chicago Bulls 2.0 with the Marta Rosen in him? Yeah, I think it's a little strange that they're just doing the Bulls thing from the previous years that we all thought was pretty mediocre and porting it to Sacramento to reunite these two wings, whatever. You know, it is what it is. But I think if you want to just sort of zoom out, you can make the case that Zach Levine and DeAnrin Fox are comparable players. And Zach Levine is going to get paid like Max Money two years after this one. And, you know, if you're just like, look, this guy wanted to leave our team and we've replaced him with a

comparable player and we feel satisfied with that. I think they could make that case. It just feels like, you know, nobody really got way better in this deal except for the Spurs, which is just, you know, which tends to happen when you get the best player in the deal. Yeah. But for the Kings to not get way worse while also getting picks, that's not a bad place to end up. The Kings have a lot of motivation to be good now, to try to make the playoffs, to try to to compete. And yeah, Bulls West is maybe not the most impressive look in the world, but it is a competent one.

And frankly, we should say, as that. construction goes, De Monis Abonis is just a dramatically better player than Vooch is or it has been and is also this season at least a much better spacer than Vooch has been for the majority of his bull's tenure. So those are real factors that have to be considered. And ultimately I'm pretty impressed that Sacramento made out this well given the tricky position they were put in with Deer and Fox. Yeah, I would go a step farther and to say this is probably the best version of the Bulls that we ever would have gotten even in the previous iteration where, where Lonzo Ball and Alice Crusoe were kind of ripping and running there because I do like some of the guys that they have on the fringe is not only sub bonus being a huge factor in that, but also the fact that like Malik Monk kind of coming into his own as a playmaker currently averaging Kerr high and assists. So I want to see him almost being the de facto point guard in this like option where like a lot of guys could be ball handling. I imagine DeRosen will be probably primary in that regard. But like Devin Carter, we have the Keegan Murray leap that we've been waiting like, what was it?

years for at this point. They have a lot of stuff in order to play above their heads in a way that I think they're probably going to be pretty feisty in the back half of this season, probably a little bit better than you'd expect. I think long term is just the pretty typical questions. Maybe like they were always going to face those sorts of things where it's like, what is our future? But, you know, Levine not only with the injury risk, just kind of caps them as like probably a

playing at best, especially considering the West is way more deep than the East where the bulls were doing this. What makes them sort of unlikely bedfellows in this deal, though, is because, like, the Kings I agree with you are going to be pretty competitive and pretty good overall. They're fighting for a play-in spot. The Spurs are not that far behind them. And a Spurs team with Deer and Fox, of all people, is going to be dramatically better. It gives them a totally new look, a completely new element to their offense in terms of

of someone who can actually get downhill. And we should say, a guard who has a lot of familiarity playing with other point guards, other guards can work with Chris Paul in a lot of lineups that could be really interesting. thing for San Antonio? Like, I just think betting on yourself now if you're Sacramento and trying to be as good as you can now is a totally worthy direction and orientation for a deal, but you're doing it with Victor Wem and Yama, like, breathing down your neck effectively. And you're helping him do it by contributing to this deal.

So you don't get to pick where the best trade packages come from. You certainly don't get to pick him when Deeran Fox is saying, I want to go play for the spurs. But something of note, as we're kind of quantifying how Sacramento lands in this, is that they're going to have to deal with the spurs to lock in that playing spot. And the Blazers, six of seven. Yep. Coming up. One wind shy of the spurs.

We're back, baby. The Blazers' mouthpiece has spoken. Yeah, I think that's another part of this is that Vivek in Sacramento's management clearly have no interest in, you know, a down-to-the-studs rebuild. They want to remain competitive, which I think is something to be admirable. I think they're in a decent position to do so. I don't think they're wrongheaded for thinking that. And it's funny because, you know, they do this trade involving the Bulls

who we've been killing for like just being on this treadmill of mediocrity for just years and never committing to just like starting over and doing something different. I think the Kings are just way better suited to that project and the Bulls have been over the past few years. So it makes more sense. So much experience? Well, look, mediocrity historically for Sacramento is pretty, good. By King's historical standards, mediocrity is no problem. So the fact that they can be in the

mix and fighting for something, that's totally fine. Yeah, the fact that they're literally 500, exactly 500 as we record this is pretty apropos. Before we go to the Bulls, though, I do want to take a snapshot of the playing race, because we're kind of talking around it here. You have right now seven through 10, wolves, sons, Mavs, and then Kings. There's enough of a gap between wolves and kings. it's two and a half games that, like, the, maybe the Suns, Mavs, Kings are probably on a different tier. That's probably where it starts. After that, Warrior Spurs and Blazers somehow, some way, still in this mix.

Rob, what do you think is going to happen here? If we were to project the playing mix, who are like the four teams you see in it? Wolves are in it. I mean, wolves could move up, but I think their position, as you say, is a little bit different from the rest of this group. Dallas is suddenly incredibly, even more so dependent on the health of its core players. And what happens with Anthony Davis's abdominal injury?

What happens with Kyrie Irving's bulging disc in his back? What happens with the supporting cast and when can Derek lively get back? They are such an injury question mark now that it's really hard to place them. And I think that's where a team like Sacramento all of a sudden feels somewhat dependable in this race. Like they may be one of the more consistent and healthier teams of this group. And for that reason alone, I kind of think they're going to end up getting in. I could see the Sun's having so many variables. Who knows what's going to happen with them at the deadline.

I could see Dallas going really any number of directions, given how eventful their weekend has been. And overall, I just don't really trust the Warriors to do anything. Clearly, their play at this point is just to say, oh, we almost got Zach Levine, just like they almost got Lowry Markinen, just like they almost got every relevant player who's ever been on the NBA trade market

that they didn't actually trade for. So I think they're going to do something pretty minor, ultimately and probably not positioned themselves well enough. So of this group, I think the wolves are the sturdiest. After that, the Kings might have as good an argument as anybody. Yeah, for sure. I know the Mavericks think they're, or Nico Harrison, which we'll get into, thinks they're a championship contender right now, which is all fine and good.

And, you know, obviously their position in the standings is predicated on the fact that they didn't have their superstar player for a month. And basically their fortunes went into the tank. Well, they won't have to worry about that anymore. Yes, but now, you know, AD's going to add his production to what they're doing, and that thing will take a new form, and, you know, there'll be a defensive, focus type of team. But to me, the Spurs are ascended, man. Like, they seem to be rising, just wind underneath their sails and not just what they were already doing,

but now, again, a clear talent upgrade at a vital position, you've got to say the Spurs are going to be in that mix. And so this is going to be a dog fight between the Sons and all these other teams. Like you said, I think the Timberwolves, just talent-wise, they're on a different tier than everybody and just wins-wise. Like, they've got a nice little cushion against, you know, somebody like San Antonio. But the rest of this stuff is going to be fascinating to watch. Yeah, I think the wolves are very much in there. I completely disagree with what you guys are saying about the Mavs. I think the Mavs have a chance to be very good throughout the rest of the season.

I could see them very much being in the top six as a result of this. Because as you mentioned, like, their issue hasn't been necessarily how they performed. It's been health by and large. They have a lot to figure out here. But I think they could be pretty good. We'll say that for the Luca conversation. I think the spurs very much number three in that regard. And then like sons and warriors, who the fuck knows?

As we're recording this, like the warriors are saying that they're out on Jimmy Butler because they won't give him an extension or Jimmy Butler is saying he doesn't want to go there because they don't want to give it. It's hard to really track. I imagine by the time we're done recording this podcast, let alone tomorrow. It will be a completely different thing where they probably end up with Kevin Durant and we'll just go from there. But those are the three teams. And then it's probably sons or warriors depends on who takes a step forward because that's the thing. It's like practically everybody in the West is loading up here.

It's going to be kind of a dog fight at this point. So those are the four. What were you going to say, Rob? I cut you off. Oh, just that the Spurs needed this. They've really been dragging lately. Their offense has been pretty up and down all season long. getting Deere and Fox is a shot in the arm

at the exact time where they needed a shot in the arm and the exact time where even a good young team can have the vibes start to turn a little bit and so to get some fresh blood to get some new energy to get some momentum I think is really important and we should also say as you know in conjunction with that this was not the structure of a deal

that the spurs could get done on their own they did not have a Zach Levine kind of player to offer the Kings they only had picks and young talent and you know some veteran ballast but no one of Zach Levine's caliber, no star for star, who we could credibly on the level of deer and fox as we have,

the Spurs couldn't get this done on their own. And so it is only, by the grace of the Bulls doing whatever the hell it is that they think that they're doing here, that this kind of trade came together. Let's talk about the Bulls, the last component of this trade. So again, was here's what they got back

for Zach Levine, who I at least put into the All-Star mix this year. You would say, I think, and everyone would agree here, probably fringe All-Star at worst this season based on how he's performed. Zach Collins, Tray Jones, Kevin Herder, who hasn't been very good lately, and their own first-round pick that they gave to the Spurs as a result to the Demarder Rosen sign-in trade. So basically they got some flotsam and their own future back.

Yeah. But that pick is top 10 protected this year. And it is top eight, top eight the following two years. They are currently ninth worst in the NBA. So on the one hand, you do regain control of your destiny. You don't have to deal with this looming threat in the background, but they probably, most likely, weren't going to fork that pickover this year anyway. And I guess their reward here is peace of mind.

What's going on? Look, it's been 18 months of them trying to move this kid. And whatever, I guess to them is just like, look, we got this monkey off of our back in terms of his contract and his injury history. We get that when he's right. He's a very productive, one of the most efficient scores

in the NBA at volume. However, injury history, contract combined, we should, look, we listen. They heard every offer possible for the guy. It's been that long. Basically, yo, he was on the trade block, essentially once Lanzo Ball got hurt and the season started to go

a different way after that year, the first year after his extension or whatever, pretty much after that. And so it's been that long. They're deeply intimate with what the realistic offers were. And to them, unprotecting their first round pick was enough. It is shocking how little they got for Zach Levine. And it's just, I don't know, it just makes me wonder like other teams that call themselves, you know, trying to compete, trying to improve the.

the talent, how they just didn't feel like Zach Levine was worth the trouble. I think that that's striking to me that the rest of the league is so down on this guy. I think it is mostly because of the relationship between how injured he often is and how many games he misses and how big his salary commitment is. Teams get very spooked at the idea of like $45 million. Of dead money. Of dead money for a season at a time. Understandably.

That is a tough pill to swallow in this cap environment. 340 million of a supermax. Everyone just doesn't want to pay anything anymore. Apparently not. I would say those are two quite different financial propositions, but even the Zach Levine one, if you're a team like the Warriors, I don't understand why that isn't just like something that you're willing to do,

why that isn't a step that you're willing to take. I don't understand if you're Chicago why a deal hadn't been made at some previous point in these 18 months when there were better offers on the table, when there were other deals to consider that would have brought you back more than a pick that you already would have had anyway, because as we said, they were going to keep it this year.

Over the next two years, do we really think a tanking Chicago Bulls team, which is what they are if they're trading Zach Levine, was going to be outside of the top eight in the draft? They were probably going to keep it through both of those seasons. And so you're acquiring a primary return of a pick you probably would have had anyway, along with some perfectly okay role players for Zach Levine. I just don't think that's an acceptable outcome, especially when the primary problem for the Bulls was that they have spent the last

couple years not knowing what they wanted, not knowing what they wanted to do, not knowing what they should be targeting in a deal, not knowing what Zach Levine should be able to get them, even with his complicated trade market, just like a complete blunder by the Bulls. Yeah, if I were to mount a defense of the Bulls, is that they finally, after years, have come to a conclusion that they are a tanking team, that they need to bottom out in order to reset this team. Unfortunately, they've just done it in fits and starts in a way that they really haven't acquired much for the players that they've had in order to just like kind of prop up this this era of mediocrity that they've been on man it's been a very long time it's

practically been some fibs left there like a couple what what is it probably over a decade at this point now and so i give them credit for finally ripping the bandaid and going down this path and believing in their young guys and trying to maybe play for a future superstar but they really have much to show for it other than like if you want to hang like the one playoff series i think they have one playoff win in the demar de rosen zach levine lanzel ball era and if you want to hang up a banner it might look a little weird next to all the jordan titles but by all means um i'll say this though i like trade jones i think he's a totally solid player sure i would honestly if i'm a contender if i'm like the minnesota timber wolves i'd be trying to get that guy in here just basically do tyus jones 2.0 for us

He's like, he's good, but that's the best I could do for them. Perfectly serviceable backup point guard. And as far as getting your own pick back goes, the one asterisk I will put on that that's to the Bull's benefit is because they have control of their own pick now, they're a little bit more flexible if they wanted to trade future picks for something. But they shouldn't do that because they're going to be bad. So theoretically, they are more flexible, but not in a way that's actually useful. I'm just honestly shocked at the Bulls, a market that was, correct me if I'm wrong,

guys would like to play in because it is a big metropolitan city. Like it seems like they've just never used that to their. They're one of the biggest markets in the NBA, but they act like they're, I don't know. And I think that's the thing. They are a huge market and attractive market, a great American city, no doubt about it. However, however, you know, their ownership treats it like it's a AAA team. Their ownership is so cheap and just so like, I don't know. the way they treat the team is like an afterthought.

And it's like got this rich tradition, having been the team that Michael Jordan played, you know, 95% of his career at. It's just, I think that that lack of sheen, of shine on the franchise is because of the ownership. And I think that's why they find themselves being rudderless all the time. Just bad management, sticking with the wrong people for way too long. Just like, just this idea of just like, no, we're going to, you know, be on the pedal. the sort of hamster wheel of mediocrat for as long as humanly possible and, like, have to be dragged out kicking and screaming from the Jonas, you know,

excuse me, from the Vucci Maine era. It's like, it's just so poorly ran. And I think that's what you're seeing when you don't see like this impetus from other people to be dying to play for the Bulls. All right. Speaking of cheap. Could actually, I want to bring up one more thing that may be a good pivot point for us, Justin, which is when I was combing through all the.

picks that the Spurs have come in their way as a result of all the other deals that they've done that allowed them to make this deal. There's one thing that popped up that hadn't really registered for me until today. The Spurs actually have a pick swap with the Dallas Mavericks in 2030. That could be pretty juicy going forward. That could be suddenly, you know, the kind of asset that could mean something in a deal, which I did not anticipate saying a day or go, two days ago a week ago. God knows. I'm stunned that we got here

with the Mavs putting themselves in this position, but the Spurs could be ancillary beneficiary of it. Make your first NBA bet a swish with Fandul. America's number one sports book. Fandul has all your favorite bets from who will win the game to how many points a player will score. Plus check out newer bets

like the number of dunks, assists, or three-pointers in the next three minutes. It doesn't matter if you tap into Fandul before the game starts or after, it has already tipped off, you can pick up AW whenever. So I'm looking at Fandall right now. It is Monday, and they already have bets up for the first clash between the Dallas Mavericks and the Los Angeles Lakers. There's actually a whole section devoted to Mavs Lakers. This game is at February 25th. So that is more than 20 days from now, and we already have a line. Right now, it's Lakers

minus four and it's in LA. I really like that. Not only is Luca out for revenge, presumably, in order to show the Mavs what they missed out on. You have to imagine that the Lakers are going to do other stuff at the deadline, get another center, get guys to just make things work for that team. LeBron looks like he's going to stick around. And so I think they'll have enough plus Luca with the Jews in order to make that good.

So if you can jump on that spread right now, minus four for a game 20 plus days away. I think you should do it. And now is the perfect time to get in on the action. Because right now, new customers can bet $5 and get $200 in bonus bets if your first bet wins. Just visit fandul.com slash NBA for your chance to score $200 in bonus bets. Have a ball, betting ball with Fandul official sportsbook partner of the NBA. Must be 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C. First online real money was your only $5 first deposit required.

Bonus issued as non-maturedable bonus bets, which expired seven days. after receipt, restrictions apply, see terms at sportsbook. fandal.com. Gambling problem, call 1,800 gambler, or visit RG dash help.com. Let's talk about the look at deal. So we obviously, Rob and I talked about it over the weekend. I want to start from this point and give the Florida was because he hasn't had a chance to weigh in.

This is a tweet from at Big Was on Twitter. Maybe you've heard of him. This is crazier than the decision. Was? It is. Just on the, just on the. surprise factor. Even with the decision, like Stephen A

had kind of reported that it was that. We knew LeBron was probably changing teams. Yes. You know, there was like this. And again, he was like the same age. Luca is right now. Yeah. Like, he was clearly the best player in the NBA.

He clearly had so much room left in his prime. It was just like, this is crazy that this kind of guy is probably changing teams. But there was, you know, I know at the time I was like, oh, this is LeBron. He's like going to do the corny thing and just stay in. in Cleveland and do the hometown thing. I didn't think he was actually leaving. So I was definitely shot.

But this is way crazy because there's just been nothing beyond. And again, and people thought I was talking crap. Like we said this on the show, like the Lakers, you know, part of the reason why they refused to move on from 2029 and 2031 first round picks, they've been telling people that they think they're going to play it. They've been telling people, we think we got a shot at Luca Donchish. And because the Lakers have been doing this type of. of bluster for literally like 15 years now.

15? That's conservative, I would say. Well, in the Twitter era, you know, where people are photoshopping pictures of every single superstar in the NBA at some point with a Lakers jersey on. So you say Photoshop, I say manifesting. The tides have turned in that battle. And so, you know, there was an idea that the Lakers probably thought they could get Luca at some point in his career. It absolutely nobody was saying they would trade.

for him at the deadline. Nobody thought that. And so to see this happen, like, the first thing that comes to my mind is, like, it's an idea that maybe they got an inkling that Luca wasn't going to sign the deal this summer. And, you know, the 350 million five-year deal again, an insane contract, Super Max contract that he's already qualified for. Because just to remind folks, this guy's already made five first team all-NBAs. He's 25 years old.

Okay. And so I'm like, okay, maybe there was an inkling that this kid wasn't going to sign. Not that he said he didn't eventually want to do it, that maybe they got to sniff that he didn't want to do it this summer and they wanted to get out ahead of things. Okay, maybe that's the case. Then, you know, you get to talking to some people who would know when around the situation is like, no, fam.

Like maybe Luca might have said, I don't know, we'll see if we're due it this summer. But there was no indication from his crew that he wasn't going to do this. And the bottom line is he's losing out on $117 million because he got traded. And so I went from thinking this was a Luca sort of, I'm not long for Dallas, inkling that Dallas management, Nico Harrison, the Adelson's, were like, you know what? let's get out of this right now and move on to like,

maybe no, maybe Dallas was just straight up like, we don't want Luca Dantich anymore, which to me is professional malpractice. Like, I don't, I just didn't want to jump on the, because I think with people in our profession, because all of their contacts around the league hadn't heard it, because, you know, everybody basically got scooped. Everybody's taken by surprise.

there's this like what feels like Nico Harrison is a complete and utter idiot and that's the only way this could have happened without us seeing it coming right which I just want to go against like this idea that like this guy's wholly incompetent but man I gotta say man

the more that I talk to people the more that I speak to people bro the more it feels like yo this dude just straight up just did this and like just the idea that you don't sign Luca first and then trade him with the cost control,

even as, like, people are going to be lining up to be down with this dude. I don't want to hear about. And again, you know, we can, this isn't like rumor mongering. You talk to anybody in NBA.

You hear about the guy's eating habits. He likes beer a lot. He does apparently smoke hookah in the off season. You know, I've heard that, you know, it's not crazy to think that the guy smoke is firing up heaters every now and again,

a la Vladi divotch, you know, and, you know, the old Yugoslavian guys. Yeah. I've heard all of those things. That being said, who gives a fuck? Come on.

Just literally, who gets? He had 32, 9, and 8 in the conference finals last year. He outplayed Shea Gilgis Alexander head to head in the playoffs last year. Everybody says, if he's not number two, he's number three, because Jay is number two.

In the world, right now. He's 25. This is just, it's, it's incomprehensible. That even if, he wanted to move on from him. Yeah, I like the way you frame that, though, because I do think the inclination is just to pile on and to not really consider the different aspects to this. And, like, I don't think anybody in the position of Nico Harrison is just acting completely

irrational. And so, like, the idea that, like, this wasn't spurred by X, Y, and Z. Like, at the very least, we should consider those things. And to that point, when I recorded on Saturday night and we should mention up top, like, probably wasn't in this state, both of the. emotionally and maybe sober wise in order to record that podcast. I basically just walked in the door. We fired up the mics and I was like, oh, this is probably just the classic NBA situation

where the player wanted out. They jumped ahead of them. And because they're a win now team, they went and got a win now player in order to supplement Kyrie Irving, all these older guys in order to do so. And I think there's like a perfectly reasonable line of thinking if that's the way they wanted to go. Unfortunately, it came out after the fact that it seemed like they, if anything, jumped the gun on the situation and they were the ones driving this. I think when you hear the first thing like, Luca to L.A., it's like, oh, he was going to get there eventually, you know? And I think we

should factor that in because it's like, oh, well, why didn't they talk to Milwaukee and all these other teams where it's like, oh, well, you know, he has a year left on his deal and then a player option after this one. So he could be a 2026 free agent, like, oh, there's like reasonable reasons why you would just go to L.A. because maybe he would get there eventually. but even if you're trying to think about these rationally, like you ultimately come to the conclusion that like one, they didn't even just get the best deal overall. And they didn't get the best deal from the Lakers

because they didn't get like the extra picks and all this other stuff. And so God forbid Austin Reeves, God forbid Dalton Connect. You couldn't possibly get Dalton Connected. They also sent out a second round pick. The second is the worst possible thing. Almost as if they felt it was incumbent upon them in order to facilitate this in order to make it happen.

Yeah, it's pretty bad. They got absolutely taken in this, like absolutely host. And look, I'm with you guys. Like my inclination is to give people the benefit of the doubt, to try to zoom out, to try to understand it. But these are things that Nico Harrison said in the press conference after announcing this deal. It's not just what you have heard and what I've also heard

that Luca did not make any gesture that he was ready to leave, that he was trying to leave, that he was trying to go to the Lakers. Nico Harrison said, on the record, Luca gave no indication that he was trying to leave in free agency that he wanted off the team that he wanted out of Dallas.

He said, on the record, that he talked to one team and it was the Los Angeles Lakers, admitting that into a microphone is a fireable offense, like should be a fireable offense. That is horrific. The fact that you have,

even if you decided, and I would never agree to it, that you should trade Luca Donchich, that you would not actually gauge the market for what Luca Donchich could get you. could get you. Luca Donchich. That you couldn't even stoke enough interest within the one trade partner you have artificially

selected to get more picks, more players, more things of actual value from them. And I say that with no disrespect to Anthony Davis, who is a hell of a player, but the Mavs could have and should have gotten more. Well, can we actually take that point you said about like asking other teams there? If this was a normal situation. And we basically have to have two tracks of conversation where it's like the normal brain versus what actually happened. But if this is normal brain where he only wants to get to LA, I do think it matters.

But that's not what's happening. Right. Well, yes. But I'm just saying in this hypothetical situation that we're saying. Like, it probably would have set off alarm bells to other teams. If they're fielding other offers from other teams that they wouldn't have ultimately gotten the best package that they got. I think it would have been quite dimension. We would have been in a deer and fox sort of situation where it's like, let's get some stuff and some picks and that's it.

And then you know my feeling about picks where it's like, you know, the picks weren't good. But having said that, they ultimately, again, didn't get the best version of the offer from the Lakers. So even if you're dealing just with the Lakers, they didn't get probably equal value or even close to that. And there's also the part where once you declare it's open season on Luca Donchich, that's done.

Like, yeah, the Luca coming back is done. And teams, they like sharks, man. They know there's chum in the water. and if they're like, oh, you can't go back and just bring Luca back. Like, now you have to move him. And I think that affects the market. I just think even with all of that being said, man, like, this is the exact kind of player. Again, that it actually makes sense to move heaven and earth for because of the age plus the track record.

Right? Like, the track record in the post. Like, there's no holes. and his track record outside of end. Again, if I'm going to be charitable to Nico Harrison and these guys, they're with Luca every day, definitely overweight to start the season. He's definitely dealing with these nagging injuries, and I talked about it on the show today.

Like, yo, a lot of this is like, yo, when you're not in shape, you do get these calf strains. You are, like, overusing other parts of your body that can lead to these nagging injuries, right? There is the lack of, you know, 365 dedication to conditioning to making yourself. And again, like, I use Yolkits as an example. He's not in the best, like he doesn't look like all spelt and all of that stuff. But in playing shape, this guy can go on and give you 40 good minutes every night, you know,

because he's dedicated himself to that level of conditioning. Like the lack of dedication to around the clock, you know, dedicate yourself to your body and make sure you're that kind of player. You know, I get it. Of course, you know, Luca comes with his own team, his own nutritionist, his own strength coach, his own...

What are they doing, by the way? What's going on with that nutritionist? Yeah, if Luca ever fires you, I don't know how you ever get another job in that profession. If that's your resume. Because of the menthols, as opposed to the camels, it's healthy.

I just, I just, I just can't believe you do this because you don't think you can win with Luca Donchich. I mean, that just seems. insane. Like this idea that this is like availability as if he's like some Zion Williams or even

M. B. who even if you want to say he's an M.B. type, the Sixers is just like, who cares? We're still all in. This guy's just too good to give up. And so just the fact... And Luca is much better than Joel M.B. He's much better. But just the fact that you don't... That you don't give this guy the deal

and then figure it out after. It's just man, that's going to be something that I will have a hard time understanding forever. It's going to haunt Nico Harrison for a long time. It's going to haunt the Mavericks franchise for a very long time. And they have pissed off a clear and established competitor who every time you light a fire under him does something better and better and better every single time. They've traded him in the conference to a potential rival and now have to watch as he becomes his best self. Now I have to

watch as he learns about Arawan for the first time. And you know, he's eating green. He's doing well. The more that I have sat with this trade and the more I have absorbed the information that's being put out publicly by the MAVs, the things you hear privately from sources behind the scenes. I have come to exactly one conclusion about this, which is that Dallas had something really unique. They had a singular superstar creator who processes the game in a way that we've never really seen before, one of the most accomplished 25-year-olds in the history of the sport, five all NBA selections, as we said, a finals run, a separate Western Conference finals run, all of

these international accolades, a scoring title, the list goes on and on. And with that, with a player of that caliber, you make certain kinds of accommodations. You make exceptions to your rules for players like that. That's what teams do for greatness. You make space for it to be itself. And the Mavs decided they didn't want to do that anymore. They wanted to be ordinary.

They wanted to be an ordinary-ass team that's going to be probably a really good defense because they have Anthony Davis and they have other good defensive players that's going to play a pretty traditional style. I just think if Luca Donchich doesn't fit your vision for what you want your basketball team to be, you need to change your vision.

Because it's too limiting. Yeah, I almost feel like it probably comes down to the personal element of this more than we're probably used to for this. Not only because Nico Harrison is, he comes from the Nike background, and so he's new to the NBA world. I'm not going to try to discredit the fact that

he has all these connections, those connections are very valuable. Because look what we've seen with Rob Polinka, being Kobe's Asian, knowing guys, Bob Myers, same thing. Those guys come from non-traditional backgrounds have had success in that regard. But even if you look at the moves that they've made

that have been successful, the Carrey Irvin trade, first and foremost, where he took a risk, made a win-now move in order to prioritize the present and it paid off. Even the Daniel Gafford trade, the PJ Washington trade, similar sort of logic where he prioritized what is happening now in order to make the best possible version of that. We were probably all on the other side of that.

that thing were like, oh, well, what about the long-term effects of this? They're getting rid of all the picks. Like, oh, and it worked out. And more credit to them. They went to the NBA finals. Awesome moves. It seems like he applied that logic and was almost emboldened by that. And whatever other, like, personal disagreements you have with Luca, the friction that he

causes for an NBA franchise and was like, I'm going to do the same fucking thing. I'm going to double down on this recipe for success and just like roll that in there. Get a guy in Anthony Davis who he clearly has a professional relationship with. Davis waived his trade kicker in order to be a part of the Mavs because he knows Nico Harrison back to the Nike days. And so it's like a big conglomeration of like ego plus personal relationships, plus like the fact that like he is probably working from a place of strength, not only because of like the past success with the trades, but also because he is now working for an ownership that probably

doesn't know what the fuck they're doing because they just got an NBA team. And so like this big like word cloud of things has just like all happened in a perfect storm sort of way. And so it's like, I want to give them a benefit of doubt. I'm trying to see things both sides. Ultimately, I come to the conclusion and it doesn't make fucking sense. No. Luca Donchich, if your framework is, let's get the best win now player we can get,

Luca Donchich is a better win now player than Anthony Davis. You lost. If your goal is to be a championship contender this season, you lost. So I don't know where they're coming from. I look at a team now, and we talked about this some as we're kind of dissecting the Western Conference playoff picture. I think the injury risks are real. and that's why they're such a big variable.

They're going to have to dramatically reimagine the way they play on the fly. That's a huge variable to throw into the middle of a regular season, especially in a race this tight. But ultimately, Justin, I agree with you that there is talent here. There is a structure of a team that can work on some level, and I would say work especially on defense. But the Mavs have gone from one of the most advanced playmaking teams in the league and problem solvers in the league because of Luca Dantzic,

to fielding what will probably be the worst passing. lineups of any serious team in the league. Like, assuming the new starters are Kyrie Irving, Clay Thompson, PJ, Washington, AD, and whoever is healthy between Gafford and lively, that's some of the worst passing lineups of any actually competitive team. That's the sticking point. Like, I actually think that there is a pathway that the Mavs can be very good this year.

Now, let's separate that from the future, the next, like, what, 10 years of Luka, probably playing for the Lakers. I'm saying Luca Lakers basically is one thing now. It's funny, I was like, I was going through like the Spurs stuff and I was like, oh, Devin Fisle, like, he can still be better. Like, he's a good player. There's still like a runway for him. He's 24 years old.

And I was like, oh, look, look is literally one year older than this motherfucker. And I'm like, look at all this future ahead for him. But if we're just saying this season for the Mavs, I see it. You know, if they're healthy and they're engaged, I actually like the talent and the way that it connects. I think Kyrie has been an all-star caliber player. I do think like the basic model that they've had for a while plus AD works. Because I think AD has suddenly become like the biggest dog shit player in the world based on how people are talking about him.

He's a top 10 player. Oh, yeah. 31 years old, going to be 32 in March, I believe. To get him back, I think is still a boo. And the problem is, again, it's always in the finer points here that they're already talking about playing him as a power forward. And we've talked about this over and over again. This motherfucker is a center.

And if you're trying to do him a solid, if you're trying to bring out the best version of him, get him on your side, you're probably messaging that he's a power forward. And even in the best case scenario where he starts at power forward, finishes at center, that's still not good enough. They should be playing him at center,

bringing Gafford off the bench. Because why is PJ Washington, excuse me, playing the three? He's like the perfect four to play with Anthony Davis. You have the model where you have like the Nico Mir, Meritich types, the Ryan Anderson types, that like bulky four who could stretch is actually the perfect guy to play next to him in the front court.

I was like, oh, there's synergy there. That's great. Like PJ Washington is going to be great for him. No, they don't want to do it. So his the thing. The last time AD, quote-unquote, played with real centers was 2020 when they won the championship. And J-Kid was on that staff.

So, like, you talked about the personal connections here. And I think this is a couple of things I want to hit on one. Like, yes, J-Kid. him and AD have a great relationship. Nico Harrison, you know, we mentioned he comes from Nike. He was the Kobe guy over there, but he also had a great relationship with AD in his capacity as a Nike guy. And also, you know, the clutch part of it matters.

I think, like, they got in touch with clutch, and it's like, yo, AD is, like, more than happy to be there, absolutely get it done. We won't get in the way of this at any point. And, you know, probably they felt like they didn't need to drive the hardest bargain because they were getting somebody who they truly really think is a great and a special player. Although, again, like, he's 31. We know what this guy is. Yes, he's top 10, yes.

But, like, I'm sorry. Like, he's not going to replace Luca Donch's just production. Whatever. Another thing about Nico Harris and the personal touches of all of this. Nico Harrison, excuse me. some people brought it to my attention that Dennis Lindsay was in the front office last year And he's since gone

Yeah And you know some people like look man like who are we going to give credit to these savvy deals to The guy who has a proof and track record in his time in Utah being Not just competent a pretty damn good GM when he was over there Or the person who has absolutely zero experience and just traded Luca Dodgers for Anthony Davis. Like, again, I just want people to understand all the angles here. Like, it really does, it really does feel like management was just sick of working with Luca Dodgich.

Yes. Which seems wholly absurd to me. It flies in the face of everything we know about the NBA. You know, like, take like Boston with Jalen Brown. You know, a mercurial kind of guy. Definitely, you could say the contract was like, okay, this is pretty damn expensive and all of that stuff. But they would like, no, this is the nucleus of a championship situation.

We're going to pay him $300 million and we'll figure out the rest later. We'll figure out what we got to do with these other guys later. There are 25 teams out there whose general manager and coach and staff are low-key annoyed with their star at basically any given point in time. Like there are a couple exceptions to the rule guys who really know how to go along to get along. but by and large, these are players who make exceptional demands on a franchise who put you in weird kind of philosophical positions

as a front office and as a staff and you do have to make exceptions for and you do have to learn to live with. You know what it sounds like to me? That's a you problem, Nico Harrison. I get it. Do you? Yeah, a little bit.

Just you and a couple of Lucas over here? But unlike Nico Harrison, you know, you power through and you just make it. This is big of you. Zooming out a little bit, There is the baffling decision to trade Luca Donchich. There is the complete mismanagement of the process by which you traded him and did not pursue offers. There's the fact that you did trade him and now you have to live with the consequences of that.

And then there has been the selling of that deal. And I would say in particular, the ensuing press conference where I've already mentioned some of Nico Harrison's remarks. I will say overall, too, just has the air of somebody who does not understand the magnitude of what he just did. And I say that not only professionally, but like I have become as a former citizen of Dallas, basically a full-time therapist for all of the people I know who follow the Mavericks. My mother included, Mama Mahoney. I apologize for everything you've been put through over the last couple of days. We're sorry, Mom.

It's tough times. For Nico Harrison to go into that press conference, yuck-yucking, like trying to crack bad jokes, I genuinely like don't know what planet he is living on and what planet he is. has been living on where collectively the NBA world, and I say this, not just Twitter, not just media people like us, people who work in the league do not understand how or

why this happened. And that is, that's like the professional environment that you are living in, where all of your peers are looking at you saying, what did you just do? And why did you do it that way? And all of Mavs fans are looking at you and saying, you traded away the player we have dedicated and

like invested in over seven plus years. for absolutely no discernible reason, with no cogent explanation as to why it happened, and you're up here cracking bad jokes? Like, that's the tone you want to strike with this? The press conference was weird. I didn't watch it,

but I've seen the dribbles of information that have come out as a result of it. And I think there's a pathway where they could have just sold this as like what we just kind of outlined, where it was, hey, Luke is going to want out eventually. We got ahead of this. We are a win now team.

We're going to win now. That's our future. And that's all you really say about. it. But then he said like nine different other things. And so he kind of like mixed the message where like let's just say that wasn't even the case. He could have fucking lied. He could have been like, oh, he's he's going to get out eventually. This is why I did this. I don't know what happened. Like this is all Lucas fault. Didn't even do that. And so like even if you want to give him credit for that regard, like he kind of blew past that because then he said a couple other things. He said

you want to be a defensive team, which was like, that was the worst part of this. Like they were already a pretty solid defensive team. And as we've seen time and time, The Celtics are taking 53-pointers a game. Like, defense is a critical component, but you need the creators. You need the office. Yeah. They lost to the Celtics who were like an all-time great offensive opponent. They didn't lose because their defense wasn't good enough.

And then the idea that like how you stop a team like the Celtics from blitzing you is more bigs is a strange, just a strange hypothesis. Right. I would actually go as far as to say, too, that a huge reason they lost that series was because when they needed Kyrie Irving to create one-on-one, he could not do it. That is now your, not only your primary creator, your only non-Spenser-Dinwitty creator. I'll say this. Spencer, didn't we have been fine this year. Sure. It's an incredible backup point card.

He's not Luca Donchich. Like, I don't know what the fuck? And another thing you have to ask yourself, like, what is happening with the ownership here? because they seem to be completely asleep at the wheel and just don't care. I have other things going on right now. Yeah, I know. But like just the idea that you just let,

like this is like $400 million, $500 million in franchise valuation. You just let walk out the door. Like, what are you doing as an ownership group that you would let Luke Dodger? Like, again, I can't. say this enough. You can't trade Luca Donchich unless he absolutely forces you to, period. And again, to reiterate by all indications from everybody that I've spoken to, and I've tried my hardest, to be like, what is happening over there? Yeah. Luca Donchich was not who spearheaded

this move, guys. Nope. Just like some beer and other guys just didn't like that about him. I know. Imagine an NBA player who smokes and likes beer. That's crazy. No one has ever done that. in the history of the game. Can we talk about the Lakers just as currently constructed now because we kind of went through the Mavs? Just fascinating. Just absolutely one of the most fascinating combinations

that probably I have ever seen watching basketball. The fact that LeBron James still playing at an all-star level, but obviously fading into his waning years here is going to be married with a guy who's similar in type, but like at the peak of his powers.

Like, Rob, what do you just think this year for the Lakers? There's a lot to figure out with them. They probably need A center, let alone like maybe like two, maybe even three. So I imagine they're going to be still pretty active here before the deadline on Thursday. What do you think about them just this season alone in terms of what they're capable of in the West? It's really hard to say because defensively they were so reliant on AD when he was in the lineup. And without him, it's just been such tough sledding with those bigs.

Like Jackson A's is not a credible enough big on either side of the ball. Christian Coloco for as much like him as a prospect is not the, level of big you want for a Luca Donchich-led team. Like the goalposts have moved in terms of what you need from your supporting players. If there is literally any downside to this move for the Lakers, and I don't really think there is one, but if there is one, the pressure and the heat has turned up a little bit as far as, okay, now you need to get together a relatively even more competitive team. We should say the Lakers are fifth place in the West.

They're not doing too shabbily at the moment, but they need to figure some things out before the deadline. I think there are a bunch of bigs on the market who could make sense for them. they were able to maintain some of their critical trade assets to make a deal like that happen. Whether you want to talk about Robert Williams, whether you're talking about Jonas Valenchunis, so I don't really like the fit of, you know, Clint Capella. Like there's bigs out there at varying ranges of salary and health and availability who could just make sense for the Lakers to make something happen right now. The bigger existential question they need to ask is to what extent are they still or will they be a LeBron James team?

Luca's going to have the ball in his hands a ton. It's one of the best creators in the league. is the partnership between Luca and LeBron a thing that is happening for the next couple months? Or is that something that is happening as LeBron kind of goes off into the sunset and is handing the baton not just as, you know,

Irwing playmaker to upstart, like, air apparent, but as face of the Lakers to face of the Lakers. Yeah, I don't think they need to ask themselves if they're a LeBron James Seamini. They're not. It's over. They have completely moved on from being in the LeBron business.

LeBron is, I don't want to say wholly irrelevant, but in terms of the decision making and the sort of overall thrust of the team, it's now all Luca dominated. And, you know, like, it's now just like, though, LeBron, like, look, we're happy that you're here, but we don't need to listen to anything you have to say anymore because we now have our 25-year-old superstar

of the future for the next 10 years. We are set around building a winner around that guy. Now, if you think Jeannie Bus and Rob Polinka going to build some competent championship contender around Luca, God bless. I don't know that I trust those people to actually execute on what they've now inherited in terms of this massive talent.

But the LeBron part of this is like, yo, LeBron, like, you're ancillary to what happens in this organization now. We have the younger, hotter version of you now. And that has just been made plainly clear. Like so even the stuff about like, oh, why are we taking a step back? Why are we doing this? Doesn't matter when it comes to LeBron and it's chirping.

It's like, bro, we have Luca, bro, and that's how we're operating. We're a Lucca organization now. So what I heard from all of that is you like them thick. You like the Luca types. Have a little smoke on a weekend types, you know? They don't smoke all the time. But, you know, when you start drinking, they smoke. You need to relax.

But yeah, that's basically the direction is going. I do wonder, you know, if getting with LeBron will have some positive effects on these off-court habits that we've mentioned. You know, if he will ever be the kind of person that gets on a LeBron-type regiment when it comes to being obsessed with conditioning and being in the best shape possible. I'm not worried about. He can also be obsessed with revenge, we should say. Yes. A very powerful motivator historically. And that's another thing, too.

Like, I know Luca has always called LeBron his idol. He's one of the few NBA players who aren't Kobe, like, obsessed, and he's always been a LeBron guy. I think there's always been a relationship there and a mutual admiration. I think LeBron absolutely adores the guy, too, and the kind of player that he is. So maybe that will help in terms of, you know, finding way to get Luca into a different kind of mindset that will take that we all, that I think, would take his game to a, different stratosphere if this guy ever took his body seriously. And on the court, like LeBron and Luca, like, these are two of the smartest guys in the NBA in terms of IQ.

They will fit in a basketball sense. Like, they're going to make it work basketball-wise. Two of the smartest guys in NBA history. Yes. History. I just think for right now, the roster is just not very well balanced. When you think about Austin Reeves being a ball-dominant guy, not very defensive-minded, you know,

Luca being the same. Braun even to an extent being the same. You know, they got to balance out the roster in terms of big men and supporting guards and de-emphasizing guys that need to handle because of Luca and Braun. But I mean, the Lakers, like this thing is coming up. Aces. Like, come on now. They took Luca and figured it out later, which should probably be telling

something to the Mavs. Like, they're basically going to reorient their entire team on the fly here because they were just like, we'll take him hang up and let's fucking go. but you're right. There's a lot of work to do because even Austin Reeves, like, do you really need another ball handler? Especially if you're going to keep LeBron in the mix. This is just, I assume, kind of probably a bridge year to get to a future where Luca is playing with the exact right players that he is. And like I took some shit like for saying that the Mavs are going to be better this season than the Lakers. I think that's the most likely scenario. If only because the Lakers just have a lot to figure out, maybe there's motivation on the Lucas side. Maybe, you know, LeBron asked for a trait. that's something that we should consider, but there's just like, it's a world of possibility,

but they're at ground floor right now trying to figure that out. I think the question, and that's another thing, if you're going to be pissed about this, if you're another team, it's not just the fact that you gave the Lakers Luca, it's that you also armed them

with the sort of capital and resources to go out and shape the roster in the exact type of way that he needs. Like Reeves plus your future swaps in that 20, that 2031, I believe, first round pick. Like, that can get you a good player on a decent market. So there's a world of possibility here.

I do want to talk about LeBron and his future specifically, though. We're already starting to see dribbles out where it's like, oh, maybe the Warriors, their big plan is to reform the Team USA trio where it's Steve, excuse me, it's Stefan Curry, it's LeBron, it's Kevin Durant. What do you guys think about LeBron? Do you see him staying there long term with Luca, or do you think this is eventually going to lead to him doing something like that with the Warriors?

That's kind of what I mean as far as the transition point. Because with LeBron, at this point, I could see it going either way. I find the possibility of him coming to Golden State to be quite credible. It makes a lot of sense for him. It makes a lot of sense for where that franchise is. I don't know about the big, like,

also Kevin Durant element of that reunion. But LeBron and Steph have been kind of circling this and teasing this for long enough. that at this point I would almost be more surprised if it doesn't happen in some way at some point. I just don't know if he's going to be in a rush to get out the door. I know LeBron only has so many really high level seasons

left, which is always a dangerous thing to say with LeBron, but we've seen him slip a little bit this year in terms of his... The slipage is there. The every night impact and effort effort is maybe too strong. The every night like impact and ability to shape the game just isn't there in a way that it was even a couple years ago. And I think he

would be the first to acknowledge that he is picking his spots in a way that he never has before. Playing with Steph, you can kind of do that. Playing with Luca, you can definitely do that. And you can be a supplementary creator. You can take possessions where you are just spacing and letting him do his thing and being the guy on the second side who's then all of a sudden making things happen when Luca kicks the ball your way. All of those possibilities are there for him.

And so for as much as I understand the Golden State impulse, and maybe ultimately that's something that's more appealing to him. And he wants to be, you know, with his peers a little bit more in terms of age rather than be the sort of mentor for Luca Donchich, not to the extent that Luke even really needs that much of a mentor as players go in terms of his on-court play. I just wouldn't be shocked if LeBron decides to stick around and wants to see this thing through to whatever extent he can be a part of that. Yeah, I, you know, he already put out the statement that he's not waiving his no trade clause

to leave this year. Right. I wouldn't be surprised if over the summer, you know, as he took stock of everything and maybe decided he wanted to go do something like play with Steph, maybe. But I also could see LeBron's like, he's just proven that he likes being in L.A. If anything, that's what we've seen. Like, he has not exercised any real leverage ever over the Lakers. Like, he's basically prioritized getting paid, being in L.A., and he has one more year left

on his deal. Maybe after, like, some people think that next year is actually the retirement year. And so maybe it is just like my last year hanging out with Luca, watching him take over the team and doing that. And because, like, it just hasn't seemed like getting himself into the most optimal winning situation has been at the forefront of LeBron's mind. Since he got to the Lakers, it feels like that. You know what I mean?

And so that's why I'm like, I can see him just playing out the string retiring as a Laker, just moving on. He's got one more year left on the deal. Or, you know, I could also see him like after next year doing the actual actual, um, actual retirement tour, doing the whole like my son wants to get drafted. Bryce James thing again. Like, I can see him running that playbook one more time, too. But, uh, it's working on the first time. In terms of being in a rush to get out of L.A., I just don't see that. I don't see why he would be anyway. Yeah. So I imagine that the Lakers will probably stay intact, at least with the LeBron and Luca part of this, probably out there in the market looking for a center.

I think Robert Williams makes a lot of sense for that team if you're willing to play through some of his injury concerns. He has been largely healthy this season. They actually have been putting him on ice of late, which is a little curious, but he's the exact type of smart player, but also bouncy athlete who could protect the rim and also be a lob threat for Luca.

I think like he's tailor-made for Luca. Unfortunately, I just don't know what someone like that would cost anymore because I feel like this trade also just completely upended the trade market. Like if you're getting Luca for AED in a first, like, what is Robert Williams worth? Like a low second at that point? Like a second? There's the trade market that Nico Harrison is living in. And then there's the trade market that everyone else is living in.

So I think the Robert Williams thing is fascinating because the Lakers, they were kind of already in the mix for a player like Robert Williams to begin with. They've been connected with Biggs all year long. but that race is heating up as teams like the Knicks have similar needs. Other contenders are going to be talking themselves into Robert Williams types. And now, as I mentioned earlier, maybe the urgency for the Lakers has turned up a little bit.

Maybe they have all the more reason. They can approach the back half of the season as playing with House Money, and I think they frankly should. But if they can do a little move to make themselves a little bit more functional in the meantime, why not do that? But where will Cam Johnson go?

That's what I thought this podcast was going to be. It might still be. Jimmy Butler's going to get traded on Wednesday and I'm like barely going to look up from my phone. That's that's the level of kind of, I don't know. Seems like it has to happen. Bradley Beale or just like let that guy hang out in his mansion like down the street. Like I might choose the mansion, you know, like the, the terse little jabs he's doing on social media these days. Like I'll just turn my phone off and just like plug into Kevin Love's like mean tumbler thing that he's doing right now.

I don't know. I wouldn't rate him if it was just the sons and it seems like that's what he's trying to do. At this point, I'm ruling nothing out. I have no context by which to understand what is happening in the NBA anymore, which is very useful when your job is podcasting about the NBA.

But I think we're all going to get through it together. I think we're going to try to make sense of this crazy world. We were just like, nothing's actually going to happen for real. Like Jimmy probably gets moves. Oh, Fox is angling. Okay, Fox is probably. He'll get moved.

All right, these will be some big, nice deals and then it'll be some ancillary, some cap clearing stuff, like guys getting underneath the apron, getting underneath the luxury tax threshold. We thought it was going to be all that kind of bookkeeping and accounting dorkery. Instead, the biggest trade ever, ever, ever,

in the history of the NBA. This is crazy. Well, it turns out it was bookkeeping. A team was just so scared of paying a supermax player, supermax money, that they had no choice but to take a low ball offer without consulting anyone else about it. So congratulations to the Mavericks for getting exactly apparently what they wanted.

I'll say this. If that is the byproduct of the 90 different aprons we're now working under, is that we're going to see these kind of nuts-so trades where teams are just throwing all-MBA regular players to another team just to get out of paying them. Like, I don't hate it. Like, this is a fascinating trade. Like, we haven't seen anything like that there. And, like, I'm so sick of just, like, going through the pick protections and all the other

stuff. So for that reason, I like it. I like being here. You're not that sick of it. You just created a whole ass taxonomy for grading draft picks. So like, you're here in the pit with us. Yeah, I rise to the occasion. What can I say?

I just love talking with my friends about the trade deadline. I love being in this friend zone. You know, this is one that I can appreciate. God bless a salute. There you go. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back later this week.

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