The Ringer NBA Show - Debating Ben Simmons and Russell Westbrook for All of Eternity | Group Chat (Ep. 362)

Episode Date: January 3, 2019

The Thunder beat the Lakers (sans LeBron) Wednesday night, but are we right to be concerned about Russell Westbrook’s continued shooting woes (1:30)? Plus, Chris spills his deepest, darkest concerns about the future of the Sixers as Ben Simmons still refuses to shoot jump shots (34:30). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Chris Ryan, Paolo Uggetti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Basketball is very good. Jimmy Butler is actually a good teammate. Saabonis is the most important front court pacer. The air and Fox is better than Donovan Mitchell. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is The Group Chat. Do I do that okay?

Are you trying out for Toyota commercial? This is good. I need a sponsorship. That's good. I like it. I am Justin Verrier. I am the Nancy Pelosi of this podcast. Joining me as usual, Paul O'Gedi.

What's up? And swinging off the ball today. We like to play a little multi-positional basketball here. One Chris Ryan. Yeah. How's it feel? There is no one position we play here. Exactly.

I'm a point forward. Switchability. You're a stretch for whatever, yeah. Switchability. It's perfect. Last night, we had some live basketball that both of you guys got the chance to see up close, which is a rarity.

I think most of us usually watch from afar. Follow there as media. Chris there as number one Thunder fan. It was my second night as a civilian at Staples Center in a row. You saw the Clippers and the Lakers,

so like differences, preferences? I mean, the amount, the superiority of the Lakers in-game experience is just almost, I feel bad for the Clippers. You know what I mean? Because they're still,

they still start the game, the pre-game ritual with like basically like sparklers in fire, fluorescent lighting. Well, and then the Lakers have like a Michael Bay movie happen before the game starts. It's just so funny though when they do that and then they're like, Kyle Kuzma.

And you're like, yeah. Like if LeBron's not there, it does make it feel really stupid. Yeah, but I've always said that the clippers kind of lean into their own personality in the same way the Lakers lean into the prestige. It was more embarrassing when they had Blake and CP3. I don't know, there's something like really cheesy about it that I love, that they're just like they turned up the pyro like

to 11 as a result to try to keep up as opposed to try to do the same thing. But yeah, Lakers games definitely, like the crowd in particular, always seems to be coming out in full force. How was it last night? They were certainly coming out in full force against Paul George.

It was really weird. I mean, it was almost like every time, so they booed him a little bit in the introductions, right? And then every time he would touch the ball, it was almost like there was a TV delay to the fans because they would realize, oh, that's Paul George, who has the ball. let's start booing him.

So it would take like a little bit for them to actually like get into it which I thought was pretty funny. But I don't know. I'm kind of like whatever. Like yeah, he turned down the Lakers and he's actually from Palmdale

which is like not close to LA which is I think it's important to know but it was fine. I mean like I love how like he kind of got a little motivated by it. Yeah, he tried 37 on him. Yeah, exactly. And he was shooting for 40.

He just didn't hit that last three. So the Thunder ended up winning this one 107 100. LeBron, still not playing. He has a groin injury. I think he's missed three games now, four games. I think it's four. Four games.

Kyle Kuzma out. I have no idea what his injury is, but it just seems like these guys. It was a back. So KCP, a leader will rise. KT's KTOP scored 25. I think that's his first game as a Laker. I had such high hopes for KCP going to that team.

Just because he was the, in the ideal form, three and D wing, then all of a sudden he just completely cratered out. And he's not even a good player. He was making threes last night. I was trying to find. find trades for him. We can get into this later. I was trying to find trades for him. Yeah. His contract is so high. That's impossible to even get him on a good team. That clutch magic.

The thing is they kind of need him right now. Especially if Khrma's out for a little bit of time. Yeah, they do like, there's like, they cannot rely on Lance as like a perimeter. Definitely not. Ball handler and score. It's pretty rough. Yeah. So Paul George's first game back, I think, this season. I think he had one last year, but this was the first time, I think, since he spent it. Well, last year was still like, they're, they were throwing with him to come. So like his, and his family was, like, sitting court side. I think they were there last night. Yeah, yeah, they were right behind and he hugged them out. That was a courtship. This was more of a breakup.

Yeah. Right. Oh, that was very nice. I don't know. I felt like there was some backlash to the booing. Like, why are the Lakers doing this? This wasn't even the thing. I was telling Chris, this, boo. Like, that's kind of how I feel too. Lean into your hatred. I feel like this is the perfect way to start, like, rivalries in sports again because nobody actually cares about them anymore. I was going to say, like, it's literally the most meaningless things. let fans be fans.

And like, are we really going to be in an uproar? And, like, there were at least, like, three questions after or two about the booing when they asked him post game. And it was kind of like, okay. Like, he's like, I expected it. I think he even said, like, yeah, like, I expected it was going to be hostile. So, like...

It felt a little junior varsity. And I thought... That's fair. I was kind of wondering if LeBron had been playing, if the booing would have been as vocal. Like, I don't know that there's that kind of symbiosis between a fandom player that you can be like, oh, well, I don't want to embarrass LeBron while he's out there.

But it would have been weird if, like, like LeBron James is on your team and you're like crying over Paul George. It's just like you're going to get Anthony Davis or Coiland or whoever you're going to get. Like it's probably written already. So just like stop being such babies. I do feel like the Lakers have some potential to be like team petty going forward. Absolutely. Yeah.

Not only do they have LeBron, they're going to be the best team probably in the league in the next year or two. They all have the Lakers Schroed, which will never go away and is one of my favorite things in sports. But also like you have a bunch of sports. stars now coming out against LeBron and not wanting to play that. So there's this real clash of the way the Lakers see themselves and the way that Lakers fans in particular have always seen themselves versus like what the NBA sees. It's this weird like old school, new school thing happening. I think you get instances like this.

And it definitely helps when Paul George is on the court and Russ is on the court literally mocking Lance Stevenson. Yeah, that was pretty great. And not only mocking him, but Russ, the facial expression on him was like he was about strangle him as he was doing the three-point guitar celebration. It got pretty chippy at the end. Tyson Chandler, well,

Terrence Ferguson tried to block a Josh Hart dunk and flipped over and landed on his hip and then like pretty much two plays later, Tyson Chandler closed lined him. And then Tyson Chandler was getting really mad at Jeremy Grant for for dunking with like

no time left. Which I like... Seems like a Tyson Chandler move. Yeah. You guys are going to approve. Paul George all game and then you're to be like don't dunk when we're like we gave up. And it was also kind of funny because Tyson Chandler essentially like the game was over but he essentially like gave the game away by giving up a flicker on

with like a minute left. The funny thing was too like, okay we said like we're kind of fine with the booing or whatever but like the funniest thing was like at the end of the game Paul George goes to the free line I think it was his last points and like the crowd behind him starts chanting like we don't need you as he's like

putting up 37 and they're going to win. Like it was like okay maybe that's where like we draw the line in terms of chance and whatnot. Yeah, I did see a stat, I think it was on Reddit, that like the Lakers Young Corps, which as you mentioned, Kuzma wasn't playing, but still Hart, Ingram, Lanzo had 37. And obviously that was the whole trade

where they didn't give up those guys for Apollo George and this is where we are right now. I would say that if, you know, you have to imagine LeBron LeRondo come back and the Lakers will improve on their currently like average, you know, run. I would like to see an Oklahoma,

Los Angeles first round playoff series. That would be good. Really fun. That would be a good one. I mean, it definitely could happen because at this point the Thunder might be the second best team in the West.

Yeah. But I think the big story coming out of this one is obviously Russ. Yes. He was not good yet again. He shot three for 20 from the floor, one for seven from three, but got that triple double,

which is all that matters. According to ESPN stats and info is the fourth worst field goal percentage in a game where the player had a triple double. His shooting has been awful this season. Yeah. But on the other hand, I think he's probably been better as a distributor than he's been in a very long time, probably since KD was there and they were in the midst of like their heyday.

I don't know. I'm torn in this one because the team is excelling. They're third in the West right now, six in the NBA in terms of record. I think they have the best point differential in the West. And yet it does seem like there are times where Russ is liable to shoot them out of the game like last night. They probably should have blown them off the floor and they didn't. Yeah. So I don't know.

Is this a problem? I didn't look at any numbers on terms of where his shots were coming from last night or attempted drives. But I do think that his, it's not reticence. It's just whether it's like a deterioration of his athleticism or maybe just saving his body for the stretch run. I didn't feel like he was going for the room a lot. And I would be curious to know whether or not that is also part of the problem. Also, his free throw shooting is taking a dive off a cliff. And Royce Young has a piece up on ESPN about a rule change that has a piece that has.

happened, I think a year ago about where Russ used to, from when he was eight years old on his free throw method, and it's hilarious to imagine a nine-year-old Russell Westbrook doing this, he used to basically take a shot and then walk to the half port line and walk back to the free throw line. And that was his routine. But when that got, the NBA changed that to speed it up, to speed up the process. And now his free throw shooting, I think, dropped like 10, 15 points maybe. And I kind of wonder whether or not there's like a whole like physical chemistry thing going on with maybe that also, you know, he's had some injuries this season. But I just didn't see him electrifying the crap, like going to the rim and doing that devil-may-care stuff that we kind of

associate with him that opens up so much of his game. I wonder how much it is about the temptation to shoot because I, you started to see this a little bit last night where defenders are kind of almost daring him to shoot. And it's, there was a few instances where he kind of, We had the ball, whether it was near the mid-range or more specifically outside the three-point line. And he would just kind of jab-sip a little bit and see if the defender was actually going to come out a little more and challenge him. And then he would take it. Like, a fan started chanting, like, shoot it because they were like, oh, yeah, he's going to miss it. Like, I wonder how much that plays intro where he just, he just wants to keep taking shots because he feels like it eventually will, they will go in.

And he's getting the space to take them. But it's just they're short. There was a couple where it didn't even touch the rim. It hit like the side of the backboard. It was alarming. He took a garbage time three that missed the rim. It was bad.

It was bad. I mean, I guess shooter shoot and you want that when it comes to someone who's an actually good shooter, but when it's Russ trying to shoot his way out of this, you also have the problem that even when he gets back up to speed, he's probably only still shooting 30% from three.

Sure. I mean, he's just in too highly valuable a position to be this bad shooting. Like he can't shoot this poorly and have this high of a... usage rate and take this many field goal attempts if he's going to miss like this. But, you know, I don't think that the answer is to turn himself into Rondo. Right.

Yeah. I think I'm actually okay with the shooting, just because he's never been a plus shooter. And obviously, you want him to actually have a respectable three so you can stretch the floor. They still don't have a lot of shooters in OKC. It's been a big problem pretty much since Kevin Durant left. And even during the Kevin Durant years, there was always that problem not having the appropriate shooting guard. but he shot 42% in that MVP season, 2014, 15, he was also shooting 42% from the floor.

So it has happened. I think I'm more concerned about his reticence to drive, which is when we brought up early on. And I think two things. I think the injury that he had, he's getting older, and I think that that combined with the knee injury, I mean, it could limit his effectiveness. He plays with such a reckless abandonment.

That's really his best skill. I would say just his speed plus his recklessness, this plus is physicality. And you wonder if that's a part of it. And also, if he's worried about free throw shooting, I wonder if he's less likely to get to the free. Because he's also taking six or so free throw as a game, which in his MVP season, he was literally taking almost double that.

Yeah, I think that definitely has a factor. And I was again, to the numbers just now. He's taking a slightly more shots inside zero to 10 feet. But he's also taking more threes, which are not going in. So it's kind of like he's a little lopside. when it comes to that. And I do kind of wonder, though, if we are underrating the other things he does

because we look at a line like 3 of 20 or whatever and you see that he has a triple double and we make fun of the triple double, right? Because it's become such like weird rhetoric around that. But at the same time, like, if Paul George is able to do what he does, which is kind of score 37 points, like I think it's fine, like you said,

kind of if Russ impacts the game in other ways, like rebounding and assists and defense when he tries, like that's a perfect compliment to that. I don't know if we wanted, like you said, you don't want it to get to the point where he becomes Rondo per se, but I do think it's a positive sign that he's angling more towards deferring to George. The bad news is that like, like you said, if he even gets back to his levels,

it's still we've seen the limit, the ceiling on like what a Russell Westbrook led team can do for the thunder, where how far they can go. The good news is they're not a Russell Westbrook led team anymore. Yeah. It's Paul George led team. And what Russell brings is the thing that I kind of, if I can play armchair psychologist, think is what Paul George wanted out of this experience, which is like, you be the one who brings it every night, who gets fired up to play Phoenix, who gets fired up to like yell it like this guy and that guy, who is always in the refs ear, who is, you know, driving the competitive fire of this team. And I can score 25 and play lockdown defense. Yeah.

And Paul George, the reason why Paul George has always been just outside of touching distance of the top, top of the league, aside from breaking his leg in half, is that lack of consistency? Yeah. Is this sometimes, like, 13 points and just kind of disappeared, you know? And he played good defense, but nothing miraculous. Last night, he just took the game over. But I felt like he took the game over because Russ was charging that team forward. Yeah. And I do think it's important to note that, like, the defense is the best in the league.

Yeah. There was that quote that came out that I guess Paul George asked Russ to be a little bit more engaged on that end. And to that point you're just making, like, if Russ is kind of this just like elite level Lonzo, elite level Rondo kind of destructive force on both ends, I still don't think he brings it enough on the defensive end. But the way he's orchestrating at some points in the game is just fantastic. I remember watching in that Christmas Day game, just the way that when he makes up his mind to pass it, some of the passes that he can actually. execute are like some of the best I've ever seen. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important, especially when you have a bunch of kind of

spare parts in addition to George, like the Jeremy Grants, the Stephen Adams, a guy. That was the good thing that I was going to say is that last night watching Stephen Adams, I was like, he's an all-star. He looks like the Stephen Adams from whatever that playoff series was where he looked like the best center in the league. I think it was the one where they pushed the lawyers.

And he and Russ are basically psychic. So the pick and roll with Adam still works really well. And I'm fond of this particular Thunder roster. Yeah. I don't think they end up shooting. The Thunder never seemed to have enough shooting. But I think that they're super athletic.

I think they're pretty deep. Abdul Nader was really good. Noel is giving them useful minutes and is still a per 36. God, they don't have a Brinas right now, but they have some useful players coming off the bench, which I think was always the like, especially in the lean years,

it was Russ would sit and the plus minus would swing to 40, you know, when Russ was on the bench. When he was in, he would have to claw them back into games. And that's as much part of the MVP myth as the triple doubles was his like the reliance they had on him. Right. I also think that we talk a lot about, you know, what's the team's identity, what is the thing they do? And this team clearly has one that they're really good defensively. And when you have kind of that bedrock, I think it's easier to deal with, like we said, the off shooting nights from us or, you know, Paul George has an inconsistent.

I think it's easier to stay in games when you have that kind of the defensive identity to fall back. on. I think they're a great regular season team. I think like you said, the defense is there. And I think when the offense fluctuates, you can always count on them to lock down and pretty much shut down one of their best opponents on the other end. As a result, third best net rating in the league. I do worry about the offense. Their 20th overall, which is not a good sign. You always want to get to like top 10 at least on both ends of the ball. And I do worry come playoff times if all of those issues are suddenly going to come up. The Ben Simmons playoff experience is like totally lingering over like every take I make now just because of the way that we thought so highly of him and all of a sudden he couldn't shoot in one series and now he's just like completely diminished. I do wonder if those sorts of things I start noticing him more now and I look at the team and like the fact they aren't, they don't have shooting.

The fact that you could just pack the paint on some of their bigs, I think it's going to be a big issue. I don't know like if Russ can't suck the defense in. If he's resistant to go into the middle and kick it out. and not create open shots for subpar shooters. I do wonder if, like... I have a feeling that this is going to be a Western conference that's really determined by seating and who gets who in a bracket.

Yeah. I don't think that they have anybody on the floor who will get nuked on defense like they did last year. Yeah. I think Russell's playing better defense. I don't think Billy Donovan is such a tactical mastermind that he can chess move some of the other coaches in the West. There are some I think he could.

There are some who I don't think are play it, like are better than him, but I don't know that he could outmaneuver even Quinn Snyder necessarily, you know, if they were to have a rematch for them, say. So it would be really fascinating. I am weirdly, like, into this team,

but I do think that their ceiling is probably semi-finals at the conference. They're super fun. I mean, they have all these athletes that just, like, dunk everything and they're bouncing around. Like, they have four Terrence Ferguson. Love Jeremy Grant.

Like, everybody in the court at one point is, like, a Territian. Checktey all is going to bathexas. I was talking to tell him about this, and he was like, he's going to get one this year that's going to end a guy's career. Well, I think not to belabor the defense point, but I think if they do decide to make a trade, and when the trade deadline comes in, they can kind of go for a more of a more of a job. Not check to Hamadu. They can go for more of an offensive minded guy, knowing that they have that, you know, that strong defense. Yeah. And that's the question there.

I do think that they need a trade. And I think if a lot of teams are going to be hesitant to pull the trigger just because they have to look two, three years ahead, the Lakers in particular can't take on any money. And so they're pretty much stuck unless they just want to kind of kick KCP to a contender, which would, if it's in the West, it's just going to end up spiting their face. But they really don't have anything. Yeah. They have no money. Their luxury tax bill right now is $74 million, which is the biggest in the league. They can't trade a first round pick until 2024.

So they really only have some of these intriguing youngsters. And if you're trying to get a guy that's going to make an impact this season, he probably makes like $10 million or over. And so in order to match salaries, you can't just clear the books for someone else. So you really only have the mellow trade exception. And I still don't know who you're getting in order to match that, because I don't think you can combine that with anything else. No, they would have to really hope that the value increases on these guys.

They're trotting out in the six to ten rotation spots. Right, and it reminds me a lot of the Sixers when we thought all their like kind of overseas projects and some of the second round guys were super intriguing and maybe they'd hit and all of a sudden someone would get interested in them but like I don't think any of these guys are at that point in fact they have TLC as one of them

and he still isn't playing which is kind of a bummer but I don't know where do you guys come on in this team do you think they're the second best team in the West? I think they're the third Oh the third who do you have second? Well as they're playing right now

kind of like Houston, but, you know, I think Denver and Golden State are better suited right now. Denver's just more equally distributed everywhere, like, and people can have bad nights. If Russ has a bad night, Paul George has to score 40, and Russ is having more bad nights and good nights right now. So I think he'll get out of it. I think we could get another two-week Russ shut down somewhere along the lines for him to kind of get his body right. But yeah, I think right now they're right around third or fourth in the west. I just think that because they have two all stars, I would go with them in terms of like the second best team in the West.

I just kind of fall back on that. These are guys too. What do you mean? You've been riding for the Thunder from the start. That is true. And then I was like, wow, this is not going to go well for me as the season began. And then it's come back around. I think the weird thing about the West right now

is that the self-destruction of the Timberwolves and the Pelicans has really thrown me off this season. Yeah. Because I just don't know what to do with that bottom half of the Western Conference playoffs bracket. And I don't know who I believe in. and I feel like there are teams that are bad that are good and teams that are good that are bad

and there are teams that I'm like, well, you guys are going to bottom out. But, you know, I mean, this is the interesting part of the season where teams like San Antonio and Miami are kind of relying on their institutional know-how of how to get through a season and they're starting to drift upwards because of that. Yeah, I do think that we could be in a situation where the boldest teams might have a huge advantage.

The teams that only have to play for this season that can make the trade for an auto porter, that can make the trade for a Kevin Love type or whatever, like, B-level star that could shake free here in the next couple of weeks, February 7th, I think is a trade deadline. So we're about a month away.

And I can't quit the Pelicans for that reason. They're starting five is actually really good. I think Alfred Payton back in there, it just makes sense now. He kind of like stirs the drink and everyone gets involved, but the bench is just so horrible. I do think

and I really want to stop myself from saying this but I think if they get Meritich back they do something for the reporter I think they can be easily in the mix for the top four again That's really crazy That's there are eight games behind The Thunder right now I just think I don't know if Alvin Gentry makes it to like February

You serious? Yeah I know and I don't think the whole dumbest makes it much longer It is pretty interesting though that it could go so dramatically either way Like, I don't think they are top four material, but I think that they definitely could get back in the playoffs if AD has a run and Mirritch comes back. Because, like, that system works so well. Granted, Rondo was on the team,

but it worked so well at the second half of last season. I remember, like, when they came around to L.A., and they played the Clippers, it was like watching, you felt like watching, like a top West playoff team, and you were like, oh, this team actually has a shot, and then, of course, they did it when they swept the Blazers. So I don't know.

I mean, it is such a high variance with this team that is like, they could also just bottom out. Here's, I guess here's the case. That last year they were pretty much in the same situation right now. And then they tore off that incredible second half of the season. Right. But they're not going to have like a massive tactical reimagining like they did last season. Well, I guess the counter of that would just be that they're already in it.

Like they play, like their base setup is what they were when they were at their best last season. Meritich and maybe they're even better because they have Randall to just throw in there. I don't know. I just think like they also have the contracts. They have the willingness to like prove to 80. I don't think long term it makes much sense. And if anything, it will just make it more complicated going into free agency. And I think their luxury tax bill also becomes a huge issue because they've never been willing to pay that. But let's say they trade for auto porter. And let's throw in Jeff Green. I have the trade machine now, but as if I'm, okay. So this is Operation Save the Pelicans. Yeah. You give them, you have to give them Randall, which is.

which is fine. Like, he's good, but I think overall he hears their defense and he won't be a factor in the playoffs because you can't play him in crush time. Solomon Hill's contract, and then you throw in Frank Jackson in the first round pick.

I mean, you have absolutely the green light to do this because you need to do whatever, you can sell whatever's not nailed down right now because you know that you will be able to refill the cupboard with Davis. Yeah. And that's the thing that they have to do. They cannot pretend to be like,

we really think we can sell Anthony on the future of New Orleans and the culture that we've built here together. You have to basically sell everything around him to get the best possible return to build a team that can go at least to the second round, if not to the conference finals. And then if that blows up and you've missed the playoffs or whatever, then you trade Davis.

I mean, you probably have to trade Davis because he's going to leave anyway and you need to get something back from. I think that even if they make the second round, part of me feels like this is already like a non-conversation. Oh, yeah, yeah. I think ultimately... And that's a little fatalistic, by the... No, no.

I think ultimately they're probably looking. looking at that reality. And I think if you talk to those people, uh, like, off the record and like ask them what they actually felt that they're probably preparing for the worst, I just think you makes a move like that because I think it can also help you when you get those guys. Maybe it's, it's Drew Holiday and Porter and Ingram and Lanzo and I don't know, you bring Merrittich back or someone else. And all of a sudden that's, it's like a fun team that you can keep like going with. And ultimately you, that's what you need in New Orleans. you need something to sell to fan base.

And I think it would probably be the best received team that they've had in a little while there because they played with such top heavy teams with such high expectations that never fulfill them. And I also think more importantly, if you make a trade right now, it gives them a shot in the arm. And this team reminds me so much of the Lob City Clippers

where they were at the end of the run and there was just like that Charlie Brown cloud hanging over them everywhere they go and nothing works. And maybe the coaching staff doesn't fit and we don't have a bench and all this stuff. and there's just like, it's such a malaise

and everything is such a goddamn slog. It's like so boring to watch. But I think there's something about what happened with Mirich, getting him in there like having success that just energizes AD. He's the type of guy that will kind of waxing way depending on like how things are going. He's not really an emotional leader.

Yeah, he's like Paul George. Very much like Paul George. And I think if you get him energized and back in there, you have an MVP candidate coming into his prime. He's not even 26 at it. I just think that there's some, much good that can happen as a result of that.

It is kind of the glass-half-full view, for sure. I like your confidence. I find the Western Conference playoffs picture is so bizarre because the three teams that I think we would normally expect, Sacramento, Dallas and Memphis are three teams that I think are either incredibly hungry for taste of the playoffs or historically are not the type to pull the plug. So it's like the three of those teams sitting there in 9, 10, and 11,

and you're like, none of these guys are going to step back. I don't think those three teams are going to be like, we're going to shut it down and go for this, a high pick. Yeah. I think they're going to go for the playoffs. Yeah. I could see the Grizzlies, like, I mean, we heard about the fight that happened in the locker room,

and I could see them struggling more. They're, they're nose diving right now. Yeah, that's the one thing, because I do agree with you. I think the Kings and the Mavericks are just going to try to go for that eight seat, and I don't blame them. No, no. I mean, like, I think that I still don't know what Utah is,

and I don't know what they're doing this season, and I don't know whether 500 is going to be good enough to get into the Western Conference playoffs, it certainly doesn't look like that. But every time I think they've sort of put it together, they lose three games out of five. So it's so confusing that second half. I think if I'm Dallas, I punt.

My future is with Luca. And that next team that's going to come in a year or two from now. You have West Matthews. You even have DeAndre Jordans expiring. Like that's pretty good fodder in like the current environment. If I'm Memphis, I might think of the same. like, I mean, you want to take advantage of Conley and Gasol, but like, Darren Jackson, that's your future.

And some of these other pieces that you're trying to put together don't like particularly fit all that well. Right. If I'm the Kings, though, I'm going for it. Yeah, of course. You got to. You have a bunch of young guys. Why not?

This is my favorite team in the league. I think, like, if they get an auto porter in there, a guy who could play a little bit more wing, I can play defense. Man, auto porter is really like, I was just going to say, like, what are we, what's there a collective opinion on an auto porter right now? This is, well, I actually think he's been particularly bad this season, but I just think like you look at everyone in the league, they're all contending. They're all trying to make the playoffs. Right. And Zach Kram wrote about this for us. Like who is a seller at the deadline. Yeah. It's pretty much like in terms of star power, a guy who could maybe swing your season a little bit. It's Kevin Love, who can't be traded for another couple of weeks, is still injured, hasn't played in months. And maybe one of the Wizards guys. And you're not going to trade Bradley Beal because he's your best player. And so Otto Porter might be the only guy who can. reasonably make an impact. Yeah.

The only other team that I was kind of wondering about with that is like would the Celtics make a deal that wasn't for a Davis? Like would the Celtics try to

unclog their chemistry a little bit by getting rid of like some of the guys who were like why aren't I playing more? You selling Gordy? I mean like I know Bill wants to

but I'm more curious about like Jalen. See but the problem with these trades and this is like everybody has kind of talked about this is everybody's biting their time for Davis. So everybody's like afraid.

Would Boston give up any of their assets for anything less than Davis? But at a certain point, even though they're 22 and 15th, nothing to be ashamed of, I feel like they know that they're not reaching their potential right now. The one team I'm wondering

whether they do make the, they give up stuff not for Davis is the Lakers. Because what if the Pelicans don't want to trade with the Lakers? You know what I'm saying? We saw a little bit of that with the Kauai thing.

Right? And like... You would know better than I would. I mean, whether or not that there's that kind of like interconference animosity out of New Orleans or whether they even give a shit.

No, and I mean, Del Demp's the first trade he made for Chris Paul. Was with the Lakers before that got vetoed. I don't think there is. And I think for him, if he wants to save his job,

which I think is going to be up in question if they can't make the playoffs here, I think he would just want the best package. And I think that's why, if you're the Celtics, going, talking back to them, like, I think that's why you wait.

Because I think ultimately they have the best assets. Like, I think you keep a jail in and you throw them in there along with like maybe Horford ops back into his deal. And a Horford is the type of win now veteran that you wouldn't get from the Lakers. So you're still keeping the team afloat. Yeah, right. And you have all those picks. Like the King's pick probably ultimately will end up in the late lottery.

That's better than anything the Lakers can throw out there. I'm still not sold on Lanzo. Right. I'm still not sold on Kuzma. I don't know. Yeah, it kind of depends on what they're prioritizing, right? And you're making it sound like they want to still continue competing. Like, they don't want to tear it all the way up.

That's my, that's what I would assume. And again, I would go back to that first Lakers trade they made where they just got a bunch of veterans. Sure. I think that's trying to find a balance between win now guys and guys that provide some of like a future that they really haven't had for a little while now. And just look at some of the trades that we've made for stars recently. I mean, Kwai Leonard got traded for DeMardo Rosen. DeMarte Rosen, Old Depot and, and so. Sabonis or a couple years into their career.

Like, Sabonis was a rookie, I think. Or he'd just come off as a rookie year. So I think if you're a GM, I think you're looking for guys who aren't going to start the rebuild because then questions start coming about your job security. Well, I think typically what we look for in the trade market is those teams that are on the way out into tank mode and getting rid of whatever like valuable assets they have around.

It would be really interesting to see a team that was at like the 6-7 seed, be like, well, we know we're not going to be like a Charlotte. You know what I mean? Like, if you're Charlotte, do you trade Kemba? Just wait after the All-Star. Or would there be a mass revolt of your fan base if you traded your franchise player when you were approaching being the seventh seed? Do you know what I mean?

I think that there's going to be, and Charlotte's a team that I don't think it would do that. I don't think Jordan would be like, let's trade our best player before the playoffs, even if he was going to be a free agent. I think that that is, but there are teams like that. Like, if the clippers were really creative, you start thinking about some of the guys they have, and they're like, look, we're not going to get to the conference finals. We're not even going to get probably out of the second round.

We'll probably be competitive if we're in the playoffs. But what we can do is, like, do a bunch of different things with, like, the fact that we have 11 guys playing right now, and a lot of them are pretty attractive to teams. Yeah. So many useful players on that team. That could literally help any team. I mean, the guys on Ricky Sanchez just said this,

but I would bite your hand off for, like, half the clippers roster to be on the Sixers. Okay, let's talk about the Sixers, but first let's talk about tonight's game. The NBA watch of the night. Yeah, it's tonight on national television. We've got two really, really tasty games. TNT's got a really nice doubleheader.

They've got the return of Kauai Lennar to San Antonio. So speaking of booing, like we did earlier with Paul George, San Antonio probably has a little bit more of like a grounds to boo, I think. But the big game, obviously, is Golden State in Houston. And James Harden on this incredible tear of shooting tons of free throws. So congratulations to the MVP, the rainy MVP there. But he's taking his game to Golden State. That's on TNT tonight.

And I'm excited for that game. I mean, like... It's going to be another 40-point game for Pauley. Yeah, I just think that like this is like the most vulnerable we've seen Golden State in years. And Houston is obviously playing with the safety off. So it's going to be really, really cool. That's tonight at 730 Pacific 1030 Eastern on TNT. And remember if you want to watch every NBA game,

subscribe to NBA League Pass on NBA.com, Amazon, or your local cable. or satellite provider. All right, let's get to the main event here. You're Philadelphia 76ers. Chris, you spent a lot of time back in the home state. I did, yeah. What county are you from? I'm from Philadelphia.

Yeah, I can feel like I live right, my mom lives right north of the art museum. Wow. It's not even like a neighborhood. No, it's not like Bucks County. It's fair amount. Yeah. So you were in Bucks County. No, I was not.

And tell us about the Phillies. Well, I've had kind of a weird couple weeks because I came back, in after the break and I went into Danny and Justin's office and I was like I have watched more basketball in the last three weeks that I probably have all season but I've exclusively watched Sixers games

and I think Danny we don't know if you were Danny who said that's how most people watch basketball is like they have their team and then they watch their games and we're more like I'm trying to get this Grizzlies game nailed down before I check out the Pacers. It's like no life's pretty weird when you

only watch the Sixers. It has its highs and lows. But yeah, I've watched pretty much every Sixers game since the beginning of December, which is a lot. Okay. Yeah, and I went and saw them against the Clippers the other night at Stables. Okay. So what is, what is number one takeaway from your Sixers' meditation, I guess? Right now there's a Sixers Civil War within the fan base. I mean, I don't know if it's a civil war or if it's just like people sniping at each other online, but there is a lot of consternation about whether or not this team can go where it wants to go with Ben Simmons as the player as he is. I think it's pretty obvious that Joel Embed for the first two-thirds of a game is Shaq.

And it's amazing. And he looks like in the first two quarters of games, you're like, that guy can score 45 points a night. Like there's nobody in basketball who can stop him. And he did, I think last night. Yeah. And he, watching him surgically deconstruct each Clippers big man that Doc would throw at him, whether it was Cortat or Harold. or Bobon even,

and it took them like a couple of tries to figure out Bobon, but it's just really something else to watch. And it makes me think a lot about, you know, I think we're going towards a somewhat homogenous style of basketball, at least in terms of what we want teams to do. We're like, oh, you got to get space, you got to have shooters,

you have to have the ball moving all over side to side. And that's true. And it's kind of, you really do start to want to, like, peel pain off the walls when you watch 85 drivel handoffs. and then a guy like step into an 18 footer on the Sixers. But it is fun to watch a big man Domini, especially live. Like it's pretty amazing to watch guys just like not be able to handle him. But he's not really the story right now.

The story's Ben. And I am, Ben is my favorite sixer. Ben is like one of the most amazing basketball players I've ever really come across in terms of what he's able to do at his size and his court vision. But, you know, there's a real, real like, people are really starting to want. wonder whether or not this guy's ever going to start taking jump shots. And, you know, the Markell Fultz thing, we've described that to shoulder problems or psychological problems or whatever you're going to ascribe it to the yips.

Ben's not that much better shape. You know, I mean, like, he's like obviously fine, you know, physically and emotionally about it. But he offers no threat to shoot. And so this is this big debate that's happening within Sixers fandom is whether or not Ben Simmons as the unicorn that he is makes up for the fact that Ben Simmons, as one of your primary ball handers doesn't space the floor. Were you at that game?

Yeah, I was there. It was the Sixers. What was your take on? I think you're not going to find a disagreement for me. I legitimately want to like scream out into the void and be like, do we realize that like Simmons is averaging more points, more rebounds, and just slightly less number of assists he had last year? Shooting better from the field.

Like, I don't, I get the whole crisis with him not being a threat and that affecting how the offense. runs. But I think it's more about the rest of the roster than it is about him shooting, but it is very fun and interesting and far more, I guess, controversial to focus on the fact

that it isn't shooting. But I think it's not that big of an issue right now, as much as we're probably making it out to be. I don't know. I've said this in the past, but I just feel like it's such a waste. Like, I think Ben at his best last season was top five watch in the NBA. Just the way

that he could just re-cavick on the court, take it from one end and just like dunk on everybody on the other end. It was very Westbrook-esque in terms of just like his style of play. And we were talking about this before he came on. Under control though. That's the thing that's so, that's so amazing about him is that he would, like, yes, he could go coast to coast and Tomahawk, but he would also go coast to coast and then pull it back out and find JJ on the, on the wing. You know what I mean? Like so much poise. It's almost like a robot created by Russ. Yes. In his image, his Frankenstein or something. Sure. I mean, there's kind of.

kind of is a similar issue where his style of play is creating all these like kind of auxiliary concerns that like in a vacuum he might be their best player but with the guys he's paired around like it's really interesting the kind of tension it creates especially in the Eastern Conference which even though the bucks are there even though the Raptors there I still feel like if the Sixers put it all together if they get some guys around these three guys like I still think they're pretty dangerous team especially if the Celtics can't get their shit together together. Do you have any confidence that the season, like the season just can contend as we thought they would kind of going into it?

I don't know if I have confidence because I don't necessarily think we're going to get an Iliusov and a Bellinelli served to us on a platter like we did last year. Right. I would say that I blame more the empty cupboard of assets and reliable backup players than I do Ben Simmons. And it's not just Ilesova and Bellanelli we're talking about now. We're also talking about Sarge and Covington. and we're also talking about Fultz and Zaire, which could have been Name Your Player and McHale Bridges. You know what I mean?

So you're talking about six guys that were short and you get Jimmy Butler instead. And you get Landry Shamit who's good and Firkant Korkomaz who can get some shots but is, you know, of zero in defense. I don't think JJ's playing really well in defense, very well in defense this year. Not that he was ever like a shutdown defender,

but that's like a lot of like auxiliary pieces who need help in other departments. of the game. Right. And you, you know, for as much as Jimmy will take on

the best player on the other team, the best peruner player on the other team defensively, you know, it's been talked about, I don't know if he's as good of a team

defender as Covington was. So for me, it's as much about the fact that they went from being a seven or eight or nine person team to a three person team, pretty hardcore this season.

And if you're one of your three is not going to be playing at an optimal level, that it's tough to see them getting over a Toronto a Milwaukee or Boston. It is funny how quickly they accelerated from the process to what they are now. And not only from going to a big three model,

but even last year, as soon as they got good, they got great. And they were expected to contend. Ben was expected to play like LeBron, even though he's probably realistically two, three years away from even coming close to having any sort of impact as young, LeBron. Yeah.

And I just, I don't know, a lot of these kind of these other guys that they got along the way were supposed to be the guys they filled in once they got their team, right? And I just don't know how many of those they actually hit on. Like Jonah Bolden is another guy that they're throwing out there. I think he started last game. Yeah, he's very useful. He would be useful as their Neuroloons, Noel for the Thunders. Yeah, exactly. He comes in, I don't know, usually, like, I think Noel played off bench minutes in the first half.

Or like he's basically what Zubot should be on, is on the Lakers, where he comes in in the third quarter to break up the Javail Tyson platoon and actually like gave them useful minutes and bring some energy. And brought some energy. Yeah. That's what Jonah should be. But that middle, they don't have that middle. They don't have that Sarge Covington, Bellanella, Ily, Eliasova.

None of whom am I saying like they're all replaceable, but we didn't replace them. And now you got Jimmy who's like, Jimmy is a reliable, like, just racks up that 22. and plays really good defense and is supposed to be the fourth quarter guy. But there's something about what Ben's play does in the fourth quarter and how defenses react to the fact that he is no threat from outside

that maybe allows him to sag more on Mb or maybe allows him to pay more attention to Jimmy on the perimeter. And it's just not working right now. So blowout leads turn into close games and they're probably losing games they could have won. And the biggest concern is that they're just not beating good teams. They're cracking down on bad teams

and any teams that worse than them, but they do not have a signature win this season. And even when they get out to big leads, like they did against the clubbers and the suns, they lose them. They lose them, yes. And they get smoked by teams like Portland. Now, granted, Portland, I don't think it can be played,

and it's like they've been on a fairly long road trip. It's like, I get losing, but they haven't beaten Boston in Boston. You know, they haven't had like that, like this team is for real. They beat Toronto without Kauai at home. I guess I'm just disappointed that, and maybe it's because they play in the big market, maybe because the process was such a flashy kind of thing in all of our lives.

It was such a big event that everyone was kind of on one side or another. But I know the goal of it was to get transformative talents like Jimmy, like Embed, like Ben, but they had so many bites at the Apple for role players, and yet they have none of them. And I think the failings of, I don't know if it's hinky and I don't know if it's Calangelo, and I don't know how much of its brand, but the fact that they don't have Zaire ready to go, the fact that they don't have another JJ waiting in the wing, so they had to bring JJ back at a big prize and we'll probably have to do so again next year.

It just feels like they became the Pelicans where they have only like four or five guys, and yet they did all, they made all the right steps to ensure that they didn't have that. So like the TLCs, like, Quirk Mazz is fine, Shama is fine. I don't think these are guys you're, I don't know, are going to be in a playoff rotation

on a title contending team. And so I don't know. I think there's something we said about, yes, maybe Ben doesn't fit entirely. But there's a lot of blame to go around in the many front offices they've had about constructing the perfect environment to fit these guys in. Right. I mean, it's exactly what Chris was saying. Like, they have the top end guys and they have a bunch of fringe guys who you don't really, you're not really sure about. But they don't have that core middle that helps, you know, teams get to the conference finals.

Yeah. And it had so many rugs. to get those guys, so I guess is what I'm saying. It's just frustrating. And our concepts of big threes is pretty interesting because I personally associate it with the LeBron teams that have had big threes. So the Cleveland teams and the Miami teams. And on both of those teams, someone has had to radically change their game

and become pretty much a complementary player. In Miami, it was Bosch, and in Cleveland it was love. You know, where you accept that your role is to be very good when called upon, but called upon less frequently than you've ever have been in your career. And I can't see that happening with Jimmy, Joel, or Ben. And Ben does not offer that I'll stand in the corner and just drain corner threes. Like, if Ben had a corner three, you'd be an MVP. Right. And I think that's the issue that's more fascinating to me, which is kind of these two timelines, if you will, because like you said, last year, the way they surprised everybody with

how good they were and how great they were right away, I think it just kind of fast-tracked expectations. and maybe that forced them to make the Butler trade and now it's like they have Jimmy on one track of a timeline and you have two 20 young 20-somethings who are really, really good, but also like probably need some time to develop their refined roles on a team on a championship team,

which is what they're trying to be. And so I think that creates some sort of like weird, also like, imbalanced. Well, there's two things to the Sixers. There's these two narratives. There's the experiment and then there's the soap opera. The experiment is the process and the experiment is the sort of invert, like the finale

of the process, which is supposed to be adding all-star talent to guys who are still in their rookie deals or Ben and his rookie deal. And that's what Elton Brayam is saying. The window is Ben's first contract because once Ben gets extended, we're not going to have a lot of room to get

to maneuver, right? And I think that they were all hoping that Markelle would join that sort of upper echelon of Sixers player and obviously he's not there. Then there's the soap opera, which is the intense scrutiny surrounding the team, which is not helped by the way the team manages a lot of these situations, but everything from at that Clippers game, Ben Simmons went for a rebound,

like in a somewhat Westbrooky in fashion and elbowed Embed in the face, and Embed flipped out. And I think we've pretty much like, if it doesn't take a lip reader to hear him basically say, what the fuck was he doing going for that rebound? Paracphrasing. But like he said something along the lines of like, what's he even doing going for that rebound? Because it was a free throw and it was Embedde's rebound and Ben comes like flying out of no...

No, it wasn't free throw. It was like a miss shot. Yeah, it was a shot. But Ben comes flying out of nowhere and catches Embed in the face. And Embed's had a facial injury before and is obviously pretty sensitive about that. But of course, that just opens up the Ben versus Embed thing again. He's sensitive about a lot. Who, Ben or it?

Inbeed. Yeah, yeah. I think he's sensitive about the fact that I am unguaratable. And in the fourth quarter, I don't get the ball. And now some people will be like, well, Embed's out of shape. So he's not really there in the fourth quarter and he's obviously tired. But I don't think he thinks that. And this is right back to like, this is exactly what Shacky's to say.

It's like, if you give me the ball, we will win. You know, it may be boring. You may not have fun doing it. I may sometimes not pass out of double teams, but I guarantee I'm going to score like 65% of the time you give me the ball. That's crazy. Yeah. But that's the thing is the Sixers do not ever seem to have quiet time. It's always something.

It's always some post-game comment, a guy who's not ready, a guy who's hurt for mysterious reasons, a guy who won't shoot for mysterious reasons. And that's just going to be the story of this team. And whether they can weather those soap operatics is as important as to whether or not they can fulfill the process. Yeah. And I do wonder, like, if this is the downside finally of Embed being so online and so willing to speak his mind about everything. He's one of the probably biggest stars in the league right now because of his personality, because of like his antics and what he does in the core and it's great to watch, but like, maybe don't, like, criticize your coaching staff, like, every time they put you on the arc for, like, a couple possessions because, like,

we know you're great in post-up situations, but, hey, maybe if you hit, like, one or two, threes a game, then things start to open up for Ben and start to open up for Butler and all that. Also, like, you played two and a half seasons at this point. Like, I'm really glad that you're healthy, but, like, maybe, like, make it through, like, what would have been your rookie contract before you start acting like your fucking, like, LeBron James. I know, but, like, But that's who he is. Like, it's so funny watching him, like, speak postgame too as he did at the cup of a game. Like, he has, like, no filter.

And he's so in control with what he says, but also at the same time not, if that makes sense. Like, because, like, somebody asked him about the Beverly scuffle, but he had, like, a ready made answer about the Simmons incident that he thought that he was being asked about Simmons, but he was actually getting asked about Beverly. And there was, like, a weird confusion about it. Like, he was like, I have these bits, but I don't know how to, like, I don't have, like, extemporaneous conversation.

Yeah, I don't know. It's just. And also, you. he said like, I think he had a quote where something like he doesn't want to shoot threes or something or he doesn't like shooting threes anymore. And then like that's the first shot he took in that Clippers game and like made it. So it's like, I don't know. He's all over the place, but also he's their best player. So it's like, what can you do? The other thing is like, it's weird that we've completely forgot the fact that he's like had all these injuries concerns. Like maybe it's

because it's like we don't want to think about that. But man, man, he takes a beating in games. It's like, because when you watch it up close, it's like you forget how much, if you're a big man who has the ball a lot, you're just like every, every play is a foul. Yeah. If he doesn't want to stand around the arc, you're taking more of it. And so it's weird that like, it seems based on what you're saying, like the

local perspective is flipped to where Embed is like the chosen son. I think it's just, there's just basically there's a debate happening. I mean, you can find it on Ben Dietrich's Twitter, you can see, it's pretty easy to find him, but just like, people are basically like, we will not beat the Celtics in Boston ever

if Ben Simmons can't shoot jumpers. I disagree with that though I can't wait to have evidence to the contrary but yeah that's basically the concern I think in an ideal world you could flip Ben Simmons for somebody else to come in there I'd rather go down with the ship

I would rather go down the ship just because you love Ben that much yeah he's a miracle like he is an amazing basketball player I think as a basketball fan I would just love to see him run his own team I've said this if he was in Orlando with just like a bunch of like incredibly long athletes

that are just running the floor and just looking to dunk everything, like it would be the best league past team in the league. And I'm like, I'm constantly saying to myself, like, why don't we have this? And maybe that's why

I just talking through my family. This is interesting. This kind of goes back to what I'm saying where it's like, this is the difference between you programming for a league-wide experience and me being like, I don't want to let this like

incredible conflation of talent go without giving it a couple of runs. And, you know, like, honestly, honestly, like, Jimmy Butler is awesome. He's, like, really, really, really awesome. But he is the first person I'd see the back of before I saw Joel or Ben leave. I'm curious, do you obviously very few times past, but like, how do you feel about the trade? Like, would you do the trade again if you could change it up? Yes.

Because there's also a really good chance that they've, like, get better. Because they've literally been playing together for, what, six weeks now. and like five practices or whatever. Like I don't think that they're installing a lot of stuff. I don't know if I want to pay Jimmy Butler $190 million. Ooh. Because he does not look as explosive as I remember him. Maybe I'm skipping the Minnesota part.

But like I just remember him being a much more like physically imposing player. Yeah. And he's he's a lot more late period, Dwayne Wade to me right now. Okay. But good. Yeah, yeah. But like latter period, Dwayne Wade. then like early period Jimmy Butler

where you're like, man, this guy is ferocious. But you kind of have to because you lost Covington and then stars for him. Well, I do wonder one thing. I think they'll have enough cast base to go after a major player. Like maybe this all is settled in the offseason. There's a path to a fourth star.

It just involves basically getting rid of the rest of the team. Which, you know, if it's someone like Kemba, who I think would be a really good fit there because he could still guard point guards, Ben can kind of like go around. He could play off ball. He could run a second off. offense, maybe keep JJ, I don't know, whatever.

I also wonder if there was just another trade to make that wasn't the Butler trade. What if you waited and all of a sudden you're in the derby for maybe not Anthony Davis because I don't know like how well that in Beat Fit works, but like maybe someone like him. There's always going to be the next guy. Maybe it's a Kevin Love. I don't know. There are guys that you can go out there. Maybe you can get an auto porter if you could almost be so lucky.

I think that's the one that I will always wonder about is Beal. Sure. That's a great one. I love that fit. because that was the ideal player for me. That was the guy who kind of takes the, anything that Ben can't do, Beal makes that better.

Well, I'm sure we'll never talk about this again. So that's good. Well, that's it for this edition of group chat for Chris, for Paolo, for Bobby Wags on the ones and twos. We will see you next time. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.