The Ringer NBA Show - Deserving First-Time All-Stars | Upside High

Episode Date: February 1, 2022

J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks are back to discuss some of the most impressive young players who are deserving of All-Star status, beginning with LaMelo Ball and the young roster of Hornets players (05:02). Then they discuss the Cavaliers and their great offensive cohesion (11:47). Then they go to Atlanta, where the Hawks have been consistently impressive (18:21). Hosts: J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Football is back and so is the Ringer NFL show. Coming at you five days a week with wall-to-wall coverage from recapping the Sunday games, giving a player perspective, deep dives, and previewing the coming slate. Check out the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Basketball is per usual. Really good. It's always good. And it's a beautiful day.

It's warming up here in Kentucky. I'm, you know, I got a little pep in my step. I'm feeling good. I'm ready to talk some hoops with my main man, John Sharks. John, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing good. I'm pretty excited. I got some fancy new headphones as you record this because I guess I'll let's up behind the curtain a bit. Kyle, you've got a very, very high level audio technology at your place.

I'm out here with like two cans and a string basically recording this podcast. John was like talking into like a whisking. Like he was talking into like a wooden spoon. We were like, John, that's not working. Yeah, I mean, I love, I love audio. I have people ask me about audio. What are you doing? What's your set up? Things like that. I just... You've got quite the setup. I'm not like a meticulous person in general. You know, like I got a messy car, you know, that kind of thing. I'm not like a clean freak, but when it comes to like my technology stuff,

I just have a pension for doing it right. Anyway. Well, hold on. Before we get, you should tell the people about your band you were in for a long time. I played some music for a while. I played for probably like a decade. That was like what I did with the most. The majority of my time.

I played a band called the DeLoreans. Are you on Spotify? First, that's a fantastic name, the DeLoreans. Yeah, well, there's another, like, 80s cover band that we've realized is, like, really messing up our SEO. I guess that was poor. We're not, like, active right now, but we played a lot from, like, 20, I don't know, the early tens.

But are you on Spotify? They are, yeah. Okay, what's like the song we should all listen to? Like, give me the one song for the first time Delorian listener. I didn't write in that band. I played bass, so I was just kind of the role. I was a role player on that one. I gave a lot of cool.

credit to the guy, Jeremy Perry, the guy who wrote in that band. But he wrote a song called Buffalo that was real poppy. You could check it out. Okay. So Buffalo. I'll check it up. You know, they made good music before I was involved. I was just sort of a... I know the listeners will be shocked to hear you are an indie rock band.

Like, that's so not... Yeah, what a shock. Anyway, we should talk about basketball here. A lot of stuff going on in the NBA, per usual, you know. Like last night, I don't know if you kind of was watching. There were a lot of big performances. We won't get in depth on those. Maxi had a big game, Isaiah Jackson,

Kevin Porter Jr., Moses Moody. You just want to sneak in some Isaiah Jackson talk. I love Isaiah Jackson. That predated his Kentucky time. I love him to death. Josh Giddy had a really weird line, 14 points, 12 rebounds, 4 assists. I wanted to segue in and just kind of in the broad sense,

ask you, do you think there's anything unique about this time that we're in? I know we're a show about, and if you've never listened to us before, the name of this show is Upside High. I should also say my name is J. Kyle Mann. Everyone knows who you are. Come on. Don't be, no, I don't even have to introduce yourself at this point. You really, you really vacillate between tearing me down and building me up.

I can appreciate that, John. You keep me on my toes in that way. It's called coaching, Kyle. Keep you guessing. Yeah, totally. But this show, we focus on young players. And I was just kind of going through and watching. What I want to talk to you initially here is about young, deserving first-time all-stars.

U-23 is what I have in the doc here. doesn't this seem like a significantly like special time for young talent in the NBA? Like I was kind of going back through the past four drafts. It really does seem like there has been like an explosion of young talent coming in in the past few years. Are you kind of seeing that? Do you agree or is it just, is that accurate, do you think? I'd have to do some research since you didn't put this on the dock. I feel like there's always young players coming in.

I don't know, like relative to what, right? Like there's a lot of good young players in the league now, but there were a lot of good young players in the league four or five years ago, too, right? I mean, basketball's a young man's game. The league, I think what the average career is four and a half years, like the league turns over really fast. Yeah, we looked at it one time what it took to stay in the league past the age of like 26. It's, it is like a, the first seven years kind of you're in or you're out kind of a thing.

Really, I'm just talking about the drafts. Like the past few drafts have been really strong. We have some great, you know, this past one was good, and going back to 2018 was a really strong one. There are some guys here. There are too many to cover. We want to focus in on there are two young teams that have two guys that are deserving of all stars. I think first what we should talk about here is a team that you and I have talked about a lot in the past that we both enjoy watching. I think everybody with a pulse enjoys watching the Charlotte Hornets.

Lamello Ball, you've texted me unprompted a few times and said that you think. think that he's a deserving all-star. Make the case quickly for a Lamello ball for anybody that hasn't been paying attention. And for people who have, make the case. First off, if you haven't been paying attention, you should definitely pay attention. And I would start the case for Lamello as simple as that. Sometimes people will ask me, oh, hey, is there a team I should be watching in the NBA right now?

I always tell them the Hornets, and I've not heard a negative thing back about that. I feel like they are the most fun team to watch on the league. The All-Star game, it's supposed to be about entertainment. It's supposed to be about promoting the league. Isn't Lamello like the perfect player for an All-Star game? That was kind of what I was thinking when I was texting you. It's like, and really, it's kind of funny. If you had told me before the draft that in Lamello's second season,

he'd be getting 20 points, seven boards, eight assists, and his team would be in the playoffs, I would have said, dang, he must be the biggest story in the league. But, like, I don't feel like he's being talked about enough for what he's doing and the way he's doing it. He still has some of that, like, I don't know, there's been this transition that we've talked about this before into serious player mode thing where it's like people are kind of waiting for it to not be true. I've kind of gotten that vibe from people where it's just like, well, we'll see, we'll see. But it's like, no, like he keeps over and over again coming and answering the bell and proving, you know, early. in the year he wasn't playing in crunch time as much.

I think the trust was being built. But like you were saying, man, if you had told me that this was, it's a funny thing whenever you're high on a player and then they still, you know, exceed your expectations. Lamello has been, he's been phenomenal. And I think in the All-Star game specifically, like you said, this is a popularity contest. A lot of times it can, like, we can,

when we're picking All-Stars, we can have too much weight on certain stats. not enough weight on kind of the holistic picture. Plus, the Hornets are a competitive team. Like, they've gone from zero to hero really quickly here. Like, they're a team that has a few pieces that work. You know, I think that they are missing some things. There's been a lot of talk about, you know, your guy, Kai Jones isn't quite ready to be, to be the big, he's not going to answer all the big, the questions for them yet.

But they, and they have some things that could be nice if they had a rim running five, who could space, you know, everybody, every team in the, league wants that. But Lamello has been really, really productive early on, and he has synergy. I asked in the chat the other day about players that have, like, synergy between them and their skill sets. Do you, I mean, are there many duos in the league, especially young duos that have better synergy than Lamello Ball and Miles Bridges? Not really. I mean, it's a classic combination. I wrote a big article earlier in the season about that and how I was comparing them to Tatum and Brown and just like the way LaMello and Bridges play off each other

and compliment each other really just works well. I mean, they're like the funnest combination in terms of, I think if they don't lead the league and assist to each other, they're like top two or top three. And I think that could be the biggest thing holding Lamello back in the All-Star stuff is that Miles Bridges could take some of his votes too because he could be an All-Star also this season. Yeah, I mean, Miles has been incredible.

I was thinking about like if there were flag football duos in the league. I feel like Lamello and Miles Bridges would be a really good one. They almost have like a comedy team kind of dynamic where it's like Lamello is like the colorful, jockey kind of player. And then Miles is the straight man. And they have this balance between each other. Obviously in transition is the place you were talking about recommending them to people who don't watch basketball or people just looking for something to watch. Their like appeal is very obvious. It's not something that's super nuanced.

There is nuance there, but they're like the fun of it. Like if you just, do you hate fun? That would be my argument against people who don't want to watch. Miles has had an incredible year. He's still only 23 years old. Came in in that 2018 draft that has brought us so many good players into the league. He's averaging 20.2 points per game, 7.3 rebounds. The growth in his passing has been really amazing, 3.5 assists.

And I was pointing to you And he's been better on ball than I would have thought throughout his career. I always kind of, you've always been kind of a miles guy throughout. I've had some sort of hesitancy to get all the way on with him as like an on ball creator. But he's posting 1.9 pick and roll possessions per game right now. But he's really getting in the lane a lot. His points in the paint, John didn't know the PITP abbreviation.

Anybody know that? I don't believe that's a common expression, is it? Let me know on Twitter. Points in the paint, I feel like is a common one. That is, but knowing, that abbreviation, you're just making things up now. I've never heard. No, I'm not. For his four letters, if it's a four letter abbreviation, it should be able to come off your tongue.

Like, it should be like, you know what I mean? Like a P-I-T-P, you can't just say it in one, if actually say each letter individually. If I'm saying it out loud, I'm going to say points in the paint because I'm not saving any syllables. But if I'm typing, I'm saving typing. and I've typed it so much. My phone knows the abbreviation. You're such a nerd. Oh, my God.

Well, you know, I'm just saying points in the paint. It's just, that's one that people know. And also, I didn't make that up. It is on NBA.com in the stat section. But my point overall here is that he's getting to the rim. He's a great finisher. He's a versatile defender. He's a guy who consistently guards guys bigger than him.

Did you have something you wanted to add on Miles? I mean, I think the key point, talking about points in the paint. And the big change for Miles this season. So last year he averaged 13 points a game. He was more of a spot-up shooter. He shot 40% from three. And his job was really to space the floor for other guys.

He came off the bench for most of the last season. The big change this year, he's getting 20 points a game. He's taking almost twice as many twos. And that's like points in the paint. That's playing downhill. That's getting to the rim. That's creating his own shot. I think for sure, if he's not an all-star, I would say Miles Bridges, probably most improved player,

because he's made the biggest jump in the league. He's gone from, like, good player to legitimate star. And whenever you make a jump like that, it changes your career, changes your team's trajectory. He's been fantastic. Quickly, too, I want to go through and talk about another team that has two guys. Cleveland is a team that's well documented. Shoot. They could. Yeah. They have been a huge surprise.

One of the big stories of the year, honestly. I think another team that's really fun to watch, the way that they can get so many bigs on the floor and still have cohesion offensively. Garland has been incredible this year, carrying a huge offensive load. His assist percentage load is 38.5, which is really near the top of the league.

57.7, true shooting. 19.8.8 points per game, 8.2 assists. He's 90% from the line, 36.9 from 3. Darius Garland is sort of coming out of college, I kind of had him pegged as like a scoring smaller guard. People said Kyrie. I didn't really go for that as much. But he seems like he's sort of of of that school of like the modern Steph evolution, like really mobile shooter, really quick. He had a beautiful pass the other night against the bucks where he just like left, he dropped it off to. to Evan Mobley. What do you like about Darius Garland? He's really, another player's gotten better every year. I think the big thing for him, we'll get to this talking about Mobley. The team has changed a lot around him. Number one, Colin Sexton being out has really changed everything for Garland, I think, because that just never really quite fit. You had two smaller guards. They both needed the ball. Sexton took a ton of shots. And I think like redistributing his,

and shots to Garland has made Cleveland the much better team. I expect Garland to make it. I think it's interesting for him. It might come down to him just like Fred Van Vleet for that last spot for the guards. Yeah, and Fred Van Vleet, a little older for our discussion, if you wanted us to mention him so that you don't get mad, go ahead and check your box. Don't get mad and tweet at me. There we go.

We mention him. But you're right. He's talking about something we've done in the past, out at scouting. I kind of had him and Morant kind of and Lamello in that like just almost all-star level players. They're ahead of schedule. They've made, they've made me look dumb. I was wrong about that. But Garland has been fantastic.

One of the guys who's really made Cleveland's roster make sense and thrown things into order, aside from other little smaller factors like Kevin Love's had a great year in terms of like his cultural stuff and his shift at Ricky. Ruby has had a good impact on that team. Evan Mobley has been phenomenal. Make the pitch for Evan Mobley to be an All-Star. Well, I think it's as simple as they had Darius Garland and Jared Allen last year, and they were like the worst team in the league. And then Evan Mobley comes in.

I think Mobley deserves to be an All-Star. I think he's one of the top 25 players in the league. But I understand he's a rookie. There's a certain pecking order to these things. I think the calves, it'd be one of those things for the calves. If Mowgli made it and Garland and Allen didn't, it'd be a little uncomfortable for them. I think the franchise would probably prefer their older players.

Mowgli's already getting enough love in the rookie conversation where I think it's probably okay for him not to make an all-star team this year, even though I think he deserves to. I would put it like this, why Mowgli, in terms of his impact, I think what makes Cleveland special is their ability to play. two seven footers at once who are dominant defensively. But, and I think

this is where Mobley gets underrated in terms of the discussion around him, because he is a fantastic defender. The key is, though, a lot of teams could play two seven footers together, except you wouldn't work on offense. And what makes Cleveland special

is Mobley's ability to play as a four on offense and allow the team to still function. Because he's such, even though he can't shoot threes, and this was something, I was like the world's biggest Evan Mobley fan.

And I wasn't sure how he would fit with Jared Allen because there's no space. But what makes Mobley so special is he's just such a good ball handler and passer for his size. He kind of makes it work, even though by the numbers, you would think, oh, there's no way, there's not enough space on the floor. But Mobley's skill set makes the whole thing work. Yeah. And I think something that ripples out from that is the fact that the league has a way of chasing trends. We saw these types of teams get built a certain way, and these things don't happen

instantly. It takes time. And so you end up in these situations where the league broadly can be kind of homogenous in the way that they like to play. And you have a guy like Evan Mobley come in and enable this lineup approach, like you're talking about, where they can put multiple big guys. Jared Allen, I don't know if he's a true seven-footer, probably like 610, 6-11, but he plays effectively like a 7-footer because he can move and jump like that. And then, and then Lowry Markinen. So I think what that does is you throw a different, you know, a different stylistic approach and you force people to play your style, which I think has been a big part of their impact, the fact that they can play this weird way that he helps them to do that.

A lot of deserving young players this year. We talked about, you know, Shea's been really good, harder to make the argument for him since the OKC situation. You know, applying to winning matters. In his situation, I don't think that they're set up to win at all. We can go into that another time. John Moran, obviously, I think, is implied. That's why I'm curious. What do you think about Jared Jackson? He's an interesting borderline case in terms of his numbers versus applying to winning. Yeah, I almost feel like Jared Jackson, it's harder to make the argument for him because of like some of the scoring efficiencies here and there over the, over the broader course of the year. Jah, he's close. He's really close. I was

going to add in here, Tyler Hero is another one that people have talked about. He's having a great year on a good team. Anthony Edwards has has up to his efficiency and scored more. Morant, like we were saying, is sort of the free space. We've talked a lot about Morant in the past. But there's just a lot of- You don't need us to tell you John Moran's an All-Star. That was for sure. We'll hit you over the head with the tack camera like Tommy Boy, if you need to be told that one. So a lot of talent in the league right now. I was I was pointing out to me, and there's just a lot of, I'll save that, I'll save that. Before we move on to talk about a team, a really interesting young team

that's made up of mostly young players, the Atlanta Hawks. We are going to take a break. All right, the Atlanta Hawks, a team that surprised people. I mean, at the beginning of last season, and I know you and I talked a lot, you as a Dallas fan,

I'm sure, Dallas fans in particular, sort of like the sons, pay attention to the jazz because Devin Booker and Donovan Mitchell, that whole thing. I feel like the Dallas-Atlanta dynamic has been fun to watch because they had the Trey Lucas,

a thing, which is going to be one of those legacy trades we talk about forever. But the way that they've built their roster in the past few seasons has been intriguing. And in last year's playoffs, they kind of shocked people because they were ahead of schedule, came out, I mean, kicked the door down, you know, and, you know, shot a few rounds in the air like Yosemite Sam and we're like, hey, we're here to play ball. And it was, it was really impressive. So we come back to this season and we think, okay, the Hawks are here. They're a great team. They're firing on all cylinders. They have all this young talent. We expect them to hit the ground running and become sort of like those OKC teams. I was compared to that in the early 2010s. Remember how good they were

and they were just like, we're here to kick ass. They didn't do that immediately. Why do you think that that is? Why did Atlanta fail to get out of the gate quickly as this season started? There's a couple things going on. I think they've been one of the most interesting teams in the league this year. I would say number one, we can go ahead and throw away the Oklahoma City comps. I mean, The team had Kevin Durant. I don't see Kevin Durant on this Hawks team. You don't pick three MVPs in a row. That was just an all-time or never going to happen again.

No. Yeah. So in the Hawks, as you kind of mentioned, they started off really slow. They were like in the bottom of the east for the first two or three months of the year. And I think the reason we wanted to talk about them is in the last three to four weeks, all of a sudden they flipped a switch. The number, they're seven three in their last. 10 games. And all of a sudden, it's like, this is the team we all thought they would be coming into the

season. And that's seven and three. They've been beating a lot of good teams. I think they'd beat Milwaukee. They'd be Boston. They'd beat Charlotte, Miami. Like, they've been going through the league pretty handily. They beat the Lakers.

They've been really fun to watch. And it's hard even to know where to start with the Hawks. I think let's start here. We talked about the Cam Redis trade a few weeks ago. And I think a lot of it, too, the Hawks were the classic, there were too many guys on this team. Especially with young teams sometimes.

It can be there's too many young guys who want touches, who want shots. And what will happen is when there's everyone feels like, it's almost like literally, it's like there's too many chickens in the coop. And they're all kind of bunched up together and they can't be comfortable and their minutes are getting cut.

And when they do get the ball, they want to force up more shots because they're not going to give them opportunities. They're all playing for contracts. after they've traded, so I said seven and three, that sends the Cam Redis trade, is there seven and three. And I think it's allowing DeAndre Hunter, Kevin Herder, they're both really getting more opportunities to show what they can do with CamGone. Yeah. And I think in the NBA, and maybe just in the broad sense in life in general, it's better to do like a smaller amount of things really well than to do several things like, okay. You know, like when you got a bunch of guys, and I think this is the case.

where just focusing on a few, you'll see good teams, you'll be like, why are they lowering their rotation to like seven guys? Doesn't it make sense to play more guys? To have, what I think happens is if you have a lot of good players

and they're not getting to contribute to a certain amount, to a certain extent, I feel like their effort is kind of impacted by that, you know, instead of have, on the flip side, if you have like a few players, if you have like seven or eight guys

who are consistently knowing, what they're going to be doing, knowing what their role is, their buying level is going to be a little higher, don't you think? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think, and it all comes back to money, too. You get paid off your stats, right? If there's too many guys eating into your stats, your money's going to get hit. And it's funny sometimes, I feel like NBA media and NBA teams, too,

they speak out both ends of their mouth, where they'll say something like, it's all about winning, you've got a sacrifice. Then you come for that contract, they'll say, well, I'm looking at your points per game. That doesn't seem too high to me. How much money do you want exactly? Is that right? It is.

It's a league that is like cannibalizes the spirit of the sport. I've said this before that like we talk a lot about how winning is important and everything, but then all the incentives are driven by awards and awards are driven by counting stats a lot of the time. Even the conversation you and I just had, you asked me about Jaron Jackson and I was like, well, you know, you hesitate. You're just like the numbers don't fit this. It's like basketball's designed to be this certain way. Anyway, that's a digression, but I said we wouldn't get off the interstate.

We did. But talking about the Hawks, Reddish being out of there has led to more involvement for a few key guys. Who do you think Reddish is, the absence of Cam Reddish? Who has been impacted the most by that? Hunter, I think, is the bigger name. Hunter is a guy. That's been part of the reason that been better because Hunter was out for about two months this year. I think he had a, is it a wrist?

I think it was. he's had a few different injuries off and on, but yeah, he's back now. He only came back in like mid-January. And DeAndre Hunter, he was the number four pick three drafts ago in 2019. I think he's just always been a really good player.

He's very versatile, very big, he's six, eight, two, 35. He can guard three positions. He's becoming pretty much a knockdown shooter. He's really developed his offensive game too. I would say that's from the big jump for him from college. Is he's,

this is a guy you can, can tell has put in work at his game. Like, he's gotten better and better each year pretty significantly. And Kevin Herder is another guy that you and I both have been pretty high on, a guy that was in that 2018 draft. And whenever people talk, I know, like, it came up, like, I think a big Twitter discussion I saw was, like, Colin Sexton or Kevin Herder. I was like, I don't even hesitate.

I like, like, Buster Scrugged, bang, I'm pulling the trigger on that one, Kevin, Kevin Herder. Because of all the different things he gives you, I think that he's like a, really mobile fluid shooter. 48.9% on open catch and shoot this year. He's a lethal three-point shooter in transition, 41.6 off the dribble. As a finisher, he's gotten a lot better this year.

Kevin Herder is a 70% finisher, which is a huge leap from where he was in the past. He can get a little, I mean, the elevator pitch for the Hawks is that you have this dynamic, like, and this is something I want to talk more with you about, like the offensive flow of the Hawks. ideally you have these three guys in Bogey who's a little older now.

He doesn't really fit our discussion. He's 29. But Herder, off the catch, you can shoot it, but off the catch, he can also operate it and pass a little bit. In five years, what do you think Kevin Herder's ceiling is? Is this a guy who could get into the all-star level? Could he be that good? That's a good question. I think really high-level starter on an elite team.

And I think it is, you said bogey, one change they've made also in the last few weeks is Herder is starting now. I think he's already a better player than Bogdanovich. He's better defensively. He's bigger. Better athletes. And they've moved Bogd into more of the point guard in the second unit role. And they're playing Herder next to Trey Young. And I just love, Herder is such a good fit with Trey because it's kind of like the classic Golden State thing.

where Herder can guard multiple positions, high tray on defense. And then on offense, when the other team puts their big defenders on tray, Herder can punish them. So you go back to that Philly series last year, this might, I think it's kind of been forgotten a bit to history.

Kevin Herder had 27 points in Game 7. They don't win that series. Like Kevin Herder. And that's because Philly was putting Ben Simmons on tray, and that was leaving Seth Curry to guard Kevin Hurder. Kevin Hurder is 6'7. That's what makes him such an interesting prospect player. He's freaking huge for a two guard.

He's legit 6-7, 6-8. And they got Seth Curry on him, and right now, Seth Curry can even do on Kevin Hurder. Kenner just shouldn't know over him like he was a chair, basically. Yeah, he had a huge series. That was a really interesting series. I want to ask you more about that in a bit. But, I mean, like, in terms of guys,

the way this roster is built, we talked about having a few things that you do really well. sometimes that can factor in or be driven by what a player thinks of themselves. Like you said, money is really important to players. Obviously, money's important to everyone. You know, that's just the way. Yeah, like, what are you talking about, Kyle? For sure.

Well, I mean, I'm just, you know, big ballbuster charks over here. So, but I mean, the one player that has sort of been a hinge in this discussion has been John Collins. John Collins is a guy I'm very high on. I know the other day they were talking about like Jeremy. Grant or John Collins, I was like, if you hesitate on that, that says to me a lot about what you know about basketball. I'm sorry. Wow, that's strong. I like Jeremy Grant. He's a good player. I like Jeremy Grant, but I think John Collins is a significantly better player. I don't even

think it's close. I think his applications are more malleable. I just think he's, I'm a big fan of John Collins. So we can discuss that if you like. It's funny you say that actually, because I think John Collins looks at Jeremy Grant as like, dang, I want to do that. Jeremy Grant left an elite team to be the man somewhere else. And John Collins just put it out in the, I think two weeks ago, he said, I want more touches, I want more shots, I want a bigger role in the offense. And that gets right to your point about how, like,

John Collins, what makes him good, I think, is he's such a versatile player. He's really grown. So he came into the league as a pure rim runner, athletic big. He's become a good shooter, improve as a ball handler, improve as a defender. And now he really fits well on this team. because he kind of fits in the cracks in a lot of places. But it kind of seems like based on what he's saying

is he's tired, as LeBron once said, he's tired of fitting in. He wants to fit out somewhere else. Well, he said that about Kevin Love. He said, you need to fit in. So get your quote right there, just to fire it back at you there. Anyway, this is how we interact for anybody that doesn't know. It's just constant. Anyway, so yeah, I mean, Collins, maybe it is a case of Collins just hasn't shown, he hasn't reached that point of like exposing inefficiencies in his game. Maybe this is the best spot for him. But, you know, Jeremy went and got a huge contract in my opinion, which would you rather do? Make a lot of money and go take a lot of shots or play on a winning team.

You not have a discussion about that. We talk about this. I'm actually more in the second. I think I'm unusual in that sense. Yeah. We disagreed. I mean, but the money part of it is the big difference in a vacuum, which would you rather do. He makes good money. He makes 25 a year.

For sure. But I mean, we're talking about the difference between a big, huge, long-term contract. But you and I, in a vacuum, had a discussion about this. You had somebody, we were like, which would you rather do, be the focal point of an offense on a team that's not as good or play a lesser role on a team that wins? I didn't even hesitate because I lost a lot when I was growing up. We were a small school. We got our asses destroyed by big schools all the time. I want to win. I'm like him a win at all costs.

type person. Okay. So yeah, it's funny how like your perspective is such in such shapes how you look at the game. So I was kind of the opposite. So I played at a high school. We won private school, our private school state title my last two years. And I was like the sixth man. I played with a bunch of guys who played D1 big men. And my job was to give them the ball. Like I did not have many plays run for me. It was all like feed the post, cut off the post, make sure the start. Make sure the stars get the ball. And that was cool. We won. Blah, blah, blah. You'd trade all that for stats. You would trade all that for some more stats. It's more fun to shoot, in my opinion. I like shooting. I like scoring. I want the ball. So one of my best friends, he actually left our high school,

went to a different high school to be the man. He was tired of coming off the bench. He wanted to be the best player. And I look at his experience, his team didn't win anything, but like everything went through him. The team was built around him. He ended up going to go to a really good D3 school because he was the best player in his high school team and ended up going, it's a very good academic school because they saw him being the man on his team. And I think about like, yeah, we won our championship, but who had more fun playing basketball this year? I think he did. For one thing, he played more than me. He played like 30 minutes the whole game, basically. I played like half the game. You know, some of that falls on the scouts. If the scouts are out there,

they should be able to see a good player whether or not they're like putting up big numbers. That would be my first thing. But I just like, and I've come to this in my older age. I'm not old, but I mean, well, some people I might be. But I'm as I've progressed, I've gotten to feel more and more like this where I would rather be. And when I was younger, I was like ball dominant. I like to score. I was obsessed with scoring.

I'm not as capable of that anymore. But I would rather. See, that's why you're maturing because you have no choice. Like most NBA players. That's probably true. At this point in my life, like, I would rather be like a bid actor in like a Paul Thomas Anderson movie than be the lead in like a shitty movie, you know, and the money there would be the difference, I guess. It's just, I don't know.

I have a much higher preference for being a part of something good. I guess because I would say like I've always thought like for me, I could have played D3 or I could have walked on in D1 and been like one of those bench warmer guys. But I was like, I don't want to do that. Like to me, basketball, the point of basketball is to play basketball, is to have fun. And it's more fun to have the ball and to play and take a lot. lot of shots. That's just my opinion. Well, you know, money corrupts all this. And those things, it really does.

So anyway, we really need to talk about a really key, important piece of this Atlanta thing, I think. And you wrote about this guy coming up. This guy could have an impact on Atlanta's greater ceiling, in my opinion. I know you agree on this. On Yekko Kongwu, who was, was he picked fifth in the draft? Six. Six. Okay.

Six by the Hawks, came out. He played high school ball with Lamello and Lanzo when he was younger. This is a guy who is a defensive player primarily right now. How has Anya Kongwu burst on the scene, in your opinion, and what does he mean for the Hawks going forward? Well, so he, yeah, rookie last year went to USC. Then he had off-season shoulder surgery. He actually had a couple big moments in last year's playoffs

where he was guarding Janus pretty well. But then he has off-season shoulder surgery. He doesn't come back until mid-de-seasons. And that's been a huge part of their rise, too, as a Kongwu. I mean, the numbers, when he's on the floor, they have the fourth best defense in the league. When he's off the floor, they're at number 27. He's a rare young big man who is really good in defense right away. I have an article coming out.

It'll be out on Thursday, I believe. Just kind of, and I started off talking about he's locked down Carl Towns to the game. He's blocked Janus. he blocked Joelle and beat at the rim. He's just a really, really high-level defender, but that's not all he does. And like you were saying, oh, he's primarily defensive player.

He actually leads the league in true shooting this year. On top of that. How is he able to do that, though? He's such a smart player. He's like he's really, really, he's one of the smartest young big men I've seen in a while. Like he just knows how to cut. He has great hands.

And on top of that, he's very efficient because he only takes really good shots. Like he, when he doesn't, like, if he has a good shot, he'll pass the ball, too, to someone who's a better shot. So when I, I, like, I'm a big believer in, like, stacking stills together. I look at a Kong who I see elite defense, elite finishing. And I think he's actually a much better passer than his passing numbers indicate right

now because he has a very small role in the offense. And you put those three skills together. And all of a sudden, when he's playing, the Hawks just crush teams. I think I have it there plus eight with him on the. floor. Yeah, and you were talking about their defense being fourth in the league. I mean, it's a small sample. Always be careful with that.

Obviously, this year's been weird with players being in and out. Like, they beat the Lakers without LeBron, but they beat good teams. And that defense has been against, you know, some very competent, very capable teams. We're talking about defensively, his hands. I've ranted on Twitter about this a few different times. I mean, he has some of the best accuracy of hands, like, and strength. in his hands and like his forearms of any like defense. What do you want to be accuracy in his hands?

I'm like quite following you. It's a very important skill of defensively is like guys, some guys will go just like wildly swiping, like just reaching. If you watch, Onieke is really, really good at a timing his, like if he's on the back line, he is really good at stalking a play and coming and making a play on the ball without fouling. I mean, he does foul some,

but like that's one thing. That's one area that I think he's actually ahead of, like Jaron Jackson. For sure. What a time for like defensive bigs in the NBA, young defensive bigs. And then the East, like I'm very excited to see some of these guys potentially get in series against Janus. Like Janus has some incredible challenges ahead of him.

But the reason that he's able to, his hide is something that we haven't really talked about that's interesting. I don't think, does he have a crazy wingspan? I don't have that off the top of my head. Is it really that big? He's listed at 6-8-240. And what I kind of said in my article, he's a guy, he's kind of built like a left tackle in that sense.

And people say, oh, he's only 240, but most great left tackles in high school weren't 300 pounds. It's something you add to your frame in college as a football player. Anyeka played basketball. He's not really added a bunch of weight, but he's got like a really wide base. You can just kind of see him like he could set the line of scrimmage, use his arms, and you couldn't power through him.

And it's the same thing when he plays defense. Like a guy like Janice or Embed, they're used to being able to just bull through guys. And on Yaka, he's a little shorter, but he's really strong and stout. And he just holds his ground really well. Yeah, and I think that's a big reason why, like, Bam. I know there were some Bam comps. I don't think he's as ranging and quick or explosive as Bam, but he does have some similarities. And, like, you watch him, he can move his hips laterally really quickly in small steps.

I remember, like, Pascal Seaccom tried to drive on him with a full head of steam the other night. And he just mirrored him all the way. of the rim and stuffed him like a child. And then if you watch like guys like Janus or Embed, when they, speaking to what you're talking about, these encounters he's had with these elite centers, they try to like give him that initial hit.

And a lot of guys, when they take that initial hit, they're not in the position to like test the ball because they're moving backwards. And if you watch a Kongwu, a lot of times he takes that hit and he's like, I'm right here. And then he just like,

he devours people. Like if he gets his talking about his hands, he just has these vice. grip hands where if he gets his hands on the ball, he's going to come away with it. I was curious to ask you, what do you think a Kongwu means for Atlanta in terms of like the Capella dynamic? Do you think that he kind of, does he open the door for them to maybe be flexible with a move? Does he make, does he affect Capella's like their need for him? What, what does a Kongwu mean for the Hawks in terms of like their plans going forward? I mentioned this in the piece. I think it's

kind of like the NBA circle of life, where Capella came in the league. He was backing up Dwight Howard in Houston for two years. And Dwight was still a good player, but Capella was as good if not better. So Houston's like, why are we going to pay this other guy so much more money? Our young big's better anyways. It's time to go, my man. And I think Capella is still a good player too, but it's a circle of life. Like, Anyeka is just better than him.

Like in the last couple nights, Capella starts games, but Anyeka closes them. And I have the numbers in the piece. When Capella's in the game, the Hawks are like plus two. Then on Yaka, they're plus eight. He's just so much more efficient offensively. He's a better passer, better blocking shots, better defender. He's just a better player.

And sooner or rather than later, he's going to take Capella's job. It's just a cool world out here, man. It is. It gets laid early in the NBA. like you've said before. I love that quote. Defensive differential with Anyaq on the court is negative 5.5%. So teams are around the rim are shooting that much lower when he is out there.

I like Okongwu because he sort of gives this, when I think of the Hawks, I think of this sort of like free-flowing, which they don't really move the ball as much as I would like. They're not that type of team because Trey is so ball-dominate. You'd love to see him fly on and off-ball because O'Yika fits the mold of the sort of fulcrum playmakers that and that are two-way guys that a lot of these good teams have. Okay, so a fulcrum playmaker, I think you should clarify what that means. It means low touch time, high posts, reversing the ball. It means you're making quick decisions

and creating, like, you're exploiting off-ball action a lot of the time. And like the Hawks have been more of a like, we have a great pick and roll playmaker. We're coming at you, do something about it kind of thing. And then they adjust. I don't know if that's something they're ever going to be able to evolve into because they, I say that maybe is sort of like commenting on what their floor is in the playoffs because I think that was something I wanted to ask you about is like what kind of playoff wall do you think that they could potentially run into offensively? Because they have things that are working well during the regular season. Like they're a good pick and roll team.

They're killer in transition. Awful in transition on defense. That's something we could talk a lot more about. But, you know, they had a chance to beat the bucks without, they could have put them away without Janus, obviously he was down. What do you think the, is there somewhere they need to go to put them over the hump, sort of the way the suns got to the finals or the bucks needed that one piece? How close are they, I guess is my question for you, to be in like a serious,

this year it might be hard for them to get into the playoffs, but like hypothetically, let's say, what do you think they're missing? What do they need to do? I was going to say, so right now, because they started off so slow, they're the number 10 seed, but I'm looking at the standings now, and barring injury, I think, so right now the 7 through 10 is Charlotte, Toronto, Boston, Atlanta, and I think those teams are much better than New York at 11 and Washington. They're but Washington or tied at 11.

I suspect those of the four teams will be in the play-in games. And Atlanta, I think what's going to be for them, it's going to be a congou. I think the question is how good can he be? Right now he's at 23 minutes a game and this kind of comes back to Capella discussion, I think the best version of the Hawks is a Congo playing 38 minutes a game, 40 minutes a game.

If he can plan all that, and I think that's what kind of makes this whole thing work. If you're Atlanta, it's Trey runs the offense. You're thinking if you have Trey Young and you give him shooting in a role man, you're going to have an elite offense. What you need is an elite defense too.

Obviously, Trey's not going to be powering that. And you need center who can anchor the defense. And then also be, I think also makes a Kongu so interesting is, yeah, I don't know that Trey's going to be the off ball guy. But what can happen is Trey gets doubled on that pick and roll. The old Steph Dremont play, bounced past to a congou, you have the four on three. And I think that's where a congou can really elevate. this team, he's just so much more dynamic offensively than Capella, is he can kind of,

if he's got a four on three, he's got herder on one side, Hunter on the other. I think good things are going to happen. And I think going forward, if you're the Hawks, I think you're building around Trey, Akangwu, Hunter, Herder. And I think that those four could be the starters on a 51 team for sure. Yeah, I like another thing I like about them, and I think they've got the three guys that they have on the books until like 2026 or like Collins, Trey and Herder, they're going to have to kind of figure out who quickly figure out who they want to keep, who they want to continue to build around things like that, taking Reddish off the table help. But I mean, another thing I like about a Kongwu is he get any of these like commenting,

I kind of digressed myself earlier when I was talking about how they flow offensively. I think of them as like this pretty like kill you a skill kind of a team similar to kind of the Warriors. And I guess Schlink maybe is the commonality between those two things, the way he's built this team. Travis Schlank, the general manager. Yes, Travis Schlink. I don't know if they're on the first name basis with this. Played a big role in building Golden State's team. Now, you could tell that he obviously was following some kind of a blueprint. But what I like about a Kongwu is he helps, along with Yondre Hunter, gives them a physicality so that they can put these skilled lineups out there, but then not be, like, abused on the other end. And that was something

that Golden State shifted towards in some of their personnel moves is when they went and got Andrew Bogot, when they went and got Andre Iguodala, they got these guys who are physical, who can kind of, like, protect their offensive stars, which you comment it on. Well, I think what's important there, and so going back to when Travis Schenck drafted Tray Young, and everyone instantly said, always trying to build warrior South, Tray Young's going to be Steph. And I think there was something to that. I mean, I don't think Tray and Steph, as you kind of mentioned, are all that similar as players, actually, just as the fact that there's short guys who bomb threes. So is the obvious connection. I think the more important point was you can't build

Golden State South without Draymond Green. He, as much as Steph, was how that thing worked. And Atlanta never had that defensive big. John Collins has become pretty good defensively. He's not a rim protector, not an anchor of your defense kind of guy. And that was the piece Atlanta was always missing. I think Akangu is that piece. He was their last lottery pick. They drafted him two years ago. And I think he might end up being their most important one other than Trey long term.

It's going to be wild to watch. I mean, like they, Trey, Trey is so hilarious to watch play, like how, I know that like, he, he did a, Kevin Hurt or did an appearance on the. the Ryan Rucillo show that people should listen to where he was talking about how maddening it is to defend Trey. And I can't imagine because anybody that tries to like pressure Trey, he has like a CP3 kind of a quality where he's going to make it a total headache if you get up on him and try to body him for being small. He knows all the tricks. He's going to lock up your arms. He's going to like hit the brakes. He's just he seems like he's a maddening player to

play against. So the Hawks, the Hawks keep an eye on them. I'm sure we'll circle back if they have playoff if they get close to sniffing the playing game or the playoffs. Charks, you said that piece is coming out Thursday? Is that what you said? Yeah. And then that Palo piece we talked about last week that I'll come out Wednesday. What about you? What's you got going on, Kyle? I'm working on a rookie notebook and then I'm working on like sort of a double LP episode of the leap and a rookie report. So I got a big video thing coming and that'll take me a little bit. What do you mean? Double LP, like a double album, you know, like how a bands have put out like two albums and one basically. I've got a that's coming.

So who's your rookies you're talking about? Just the significant rookies, you know, Mowbly, Cade. Guys of note, nothing, no curveballs, I don't think. Anyway, all right. Well, thanks for listening and come back and join us here soon. Read Charks' stuff. Check out my stuff on YouTube.

I had a Clay Thompson thing go up last week. All the other great NBA shows that we have on this feed and so on and so on on in Theringer.com and all the great writing that we have. Charks, it's good to see you. As always, good times. Call her with the way