The Ringer NBA Show - Did Anybody Win the Grizzlies-Pelicans Trade? Plus: NBA Draft Cram Session. | Group Chat

Episode Date: July 27, 2021

Justin, Rob, Tjarks, and J. Kyle Mann discuss every aspect of the trade between the Memphis Grizzlies and New Orleans Pelicans (1:45). Then Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann help get Rob and Justin up to speed on what they need to know going into the NBA draft (18:43). Lastly they answer some questions from Spotify Greenroom listeners (51:20). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney Guests: Jonathan Tjarks and J. Kyle Mann Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The NFL draft may be over, but the Ringer NFL show isn't going anywhere. On Mondays, join Kevin and Nora as they look ahead to the 2021 season. And on Wednesdays, check out Flying Coach Season 2 with NFL Network's Peter Shreger and Ram's head coach Sean McVeigh. The two longtime friends are joined by guests from around the sports and entertainment world to discuss the latest NFL news, tell stories from their careers, and break down the game from their unique perspectives. Check out the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier joining me today for this special edition of Group Chat, the NBA Draft Cram Session. Rob Mahoney is here. Jay Kyle Mann is here and Jonathan Charks is here. What's up, gentlemen? Justin, I need to be educated today. I need a lot of help to get ready for this draft.

And I mean, I'm really hoping Kyle and Charks can do the heavy lifting here, but I have a lot of questions. We're here for Rob's takes. Let's not get it. Like, Rob's, you've, like, the perfect mind for it because you have no prior knowledge of it. You can give the pure unfiltered take. You're the blank slate.

My first take is, who are these players? I need to ask. You bunch of NBA elitists who don't watch college basketball year. Now you're coming crawling back to us because you want to know. You want to know about these players that are relevant to you now. And we graciously will tell you. So, because we are your kind people. Yeah.

We'll take some questions in the chat later on. And we will get to some draft particulars with Kyle and Charks and, you know, a little bit of Rob. shortly, but I didn't want to talk about this Pelicans and Grizzlies trade that happened yesterday. So the particulars, as you're probably aware of, at this point, the Pelicans get Jonas Valenciunis, number 17 and number 51 in this year's draft for Stephen Adams, Eric Bledso, who based on reports, is going to be waived, number 10, number 40 this year, and a top 10 protected Lakers 2022 first. Before we get into the draft stuff and some of the ripple effects, Rob, just big picture. What do you think about this one?

winners, any losers? Are you more interested in Jonas going to the Pelicans or maybe the Grizzlies moving up here? Well, I mean, it's clearly representative of two teams at very different places in terms of pressure in terms of the need to win immediately. We see the Grizzlies taking a more long-term bent here with their acquisitions. And Jonas Valchunis, I think, while similar to Stephen Adams in a lot of ways in terms of Braun and most of his skill set, I think it's just a much more decisive finisher, a much more aggressive offensive player inside in a way that will work better off of Zion. If, you know, considering that's the framework of your offense, it makes a little more sense

in the immediate. That said, the fact that the Pelicans acquired Adams and Blood So, and had to dish them out. So immediately, they can't exactly get off the hook for having to make this intermediate step just to get to another passable player. It's not a great position to be in for that franchise. What do you think the original thinking was in making that move? I think that's the kind of, do we think that they were trying to, do we think that they were trying to like with the defensive struggles where they trying to import leadership and

sort of inspire those guys was that the thinking there and overpaying players like that with adams and blood cell you're referring to yeah it seemed like it yeah it seemed like the stability of let's bring in two veteran players who as you said Kyle are are really good individual defenders or i should say team defenders really they're good in a team context in terms of you know let's let's get these young guys up to speed let's give them something to play off of we've seen time and time again when you just overload a roster with young players, it can be good for the alignment of the timetable, but sometimes those guys get way off track in terms of habits, in terms of scheme, in terms of understanding what their roles are. And so I think that was the

idea. The problem is, I mean, from the start, I don't think they expected to be using Zion in quite this way where he has the ball on his hands this much. And once that happened, obviously Eric Bloodsoe becomes not just a redundant player, but an actively disruptive one. And Stephen Adams was just never quite what they needed him to be as a defender, first of all, but certainly on the offensive end either. The thing that's wild is they could have had Al Horford and George Hill

in that same three-team trade. Even at the time, it was, okay, Al-Horford and George Hill are good defensively, and they can shoot. It didn't seem that. It just seemed overthought at the time. And now, a year later, Griffin's fired his coach,

and he's traded as two guys he acquired last year. So the whole last summer is a total pun now, which is not a good look, obviously. I really want to like this trade or I really don't want to be offended by this trade, I guess I should say, because if you look at the particulars, it's not all that bad.

They move down seven spots. In the first round, they move back a little bit in the second round. They get ostensibly a better fit next to Zion and Jonas, who I believe comes up his contract one year sooner. And you give up a Lakers 2020 first rounder that you top 10 protect in the worst case scenario

and is most likely going to be if all things go well in Lakerland in the 20s. But I can't get rid of this bitter taste in my mouth about trading, pretty much dumping contracts that you took on and in Adams case, extended for two extra years that you didn't have to do and giving up assets to do so. I mean, this is the problem the Pelicans have faced throughout.

The recent history is paying or mortgaging the future in order for the now. It isn't as dire of a situation that it was in past years. but it just it really offends my sensibility and it really it goes down the slippery slope where you start to wonder what these picks

the Pelicans have accumulated are actually for right we all think that they're going to be like lumped together and they're going to be the next star trade you know you get Bradley Beale from them but we're opening up the mystery box and starting to see that maybe they're actually

just job security for David Griffin well especially if you're going to extend Adams on arrival that makes what Charks brought up in terms of turning down Horford, who I could see it if you were wary about the years that Horford had left. But if you're going to extend Adams, again, it was kind of a strange move at the time, but one you could talk yourself into for the sake of a team trying to get to level, a young team trying to get to competence. But looking at this trade in macro, I'm just a lot more confident in the Grizzlies as an organization that has a good sense of where they are in terms of the arc of their franchise and their young team. This is, they just punted one of their best players and a guy who was pretty good for them in the playoffs for the sake of, okay, we're going to play this little slower. We're going to be a little more, more patient.

We're going to get in, you know, the one or two more young players we need for this core to be really ascendant. And that's, I think if you're a Grizzlies fan, there's a lot of reason to see confidence in a move like this one. Well, when you're one of these like smaller market teams, quote unquote, I mean, or just teams that don't have the luxury of drawing players in other ways, you really have to nail this kind of stuff. and kind of thread the needle between being okay and acquiring assets. And that just takes a lot of organizational savvy, which I think Memphis has really shown a lot of competence in that area recently. I mean, they're batting pretty good average there. And I mean, if you think about the fact that they got their young core,

it's great because they've accomplished a few things. They got their young core playoff experience, which is great, which these guys already fit together defensively really well for a young team. They defend really well. I think there were six in defensive rating last year overall in the league, but sort of the middle of the pack. But now you've moved up and you've got that experience and you have another chance to take a swing at a player.

And there are some players in that range that have upside. So I think on that level, they've accomplished some things and they've set themselves up to get better and play that slow game like you were talking about. I think what Kyle said is the key in terms of Memphis knows who they are as a franchise. And they're saying, what we have to do is nail the draft. We believe we can do that. we're going to use our assets to jump up in the draft because we think we know what we're doing. And I think what it's really going to help them now, too, is with these, whoever they draft at 10 is A, they have a star point guard, John Morant, makes everybody better.

They have a defensive structure so this young guy can be in a smaller defensive role early. So it's like, okay, we're protected on defense, helped on offense. We can grow this young player. So the guy we draft at 10, he'll have a better chance of being good than almost anywhere else. And that's kind of when you start to really see the synergy effects of a well-run franchise. All I'm hearing is that the Grizzlies are the new big tent franchise of the NBA. You've got the electricity of John Morant. You've got Jaron Jackson Jr. who appeases all these galaxy-brained futurists who are looking at this guy who could have an unlockable game.

You've got the draft Knicks pleased. You've got the stat nerds pleased. There's room for everybody. Come join. Right. And it's the team with Jha and not Zion that we're saying. that about? I think that's important. I will say that the Pelicans do have opportunity here. They made this move, it seems like, in no small part, to open up cap space this summer. It really comes down to how they spend that money now. I believe they opened up about 20 million extra they can get into the high 30s. They wanted to renounce some of their free agents, but it really begs the question of what big name player is going to willingly go to New Orleans, especially after the

season that they just had, especially after JJ Reddick, one of the few bold-faced names that's ever really gone down there, left pretty much calling the front-off as liars. Kyle Lowry is the name you're starting to see kicked around here is something of a southeastern version of the Chris Paul veteran effect. Rob, what do you think about that? Lowry, not going to a Philly or a ready-made contender, but more of an upstart, kind of a smaller market team that's looking to do something and make a name for themselves and the Pelicans. I mean, the appeal of that fit for the Pelicans is obvious. Lowry has always been one of the more intuitive guards in the league

when it comes to playing off the ball of giving it up and still finding lots of ways to contribute. But if you're Kyle Lowry and you're faced with, you know, I could play here, I could play for the Sixers, I could play for a lot of really good teams that are going to be in the mix to win now. I don't know that there's a lot of immediate pull for me for New Orleans to, you know, maybe you have slightly more of a role there,

but Zion takes a lot of the options. oxygen, you know, and will and rightly so. Like, he's deserving of that. Am I really going to sign up to, to play, you know, play alongside that kind of player who's on a team that's several years away still versus one that could be contending for at least your conference championship as soon as this season? You know, Lowry's, he's running out of time a little bit in terms of the most productive years of his career.

He's got to make the most of them. I wouldn't see the logic in using one of those in New Orleans if I were him. I think that's why you have so much cap space because you're going to give him an outrageous contract, say, literally a golden parachute. Like, yeah, your career is getting over. Exactly. $100 billion of $36. That might not be too bad.

Yeah, but that's the problem for the Pelicans. You're pretty much trying to make marginal gains in the immediate and sacrificing the back end when you could be paying big money. To a guy like Cowellari, like, let's be honest, like maybe he's still fringe All-Star caliber at 36, 37 years old, the more likely than not a small point guard considering the charges that he takes on a daily basis probably isn't going to age particularly well. And well, I guess the other option is they could just simply match offers on Lonzo Ball, Lonzo, who doesn't sound like based on like some

interviews Rich Paul has gave and just like the way the winds are blowing doesn't want to return to New Orleans. But Kyle, if you were faced with that choice, basically chasing after Lowry or matching offers on ball, just if only to retain the asset, which way would you go? I mean, ball has never been like an exemplary fit, especially when you consider the fact that, especially when you consider the fact that Ingram is there and then they add blood. So it's just that cluster of guards with Zion, I feel like if I was going down the list of players in the NBA, if I was like, these guys would be rough fits with Zion, those would be probably three guys that I would think of because they're not, you know, certainties as catch and shoot players, therefore they're not played the same on closeouts. It just

kind of has a ripple effect that's bad for the guy that your whole team is built around. I mean, assuming that Lowry is going to come, if we are confident, I guess some of this comes down to Intel, I haven't heard anything about that. If I'm Lowry, like Rob said, I'm not spending, you know, we were talking about on Green Room yesterday that like when you're 35, 36 years old, it's like you're still there, but when it's over, it's over pretty abruptly in terms of you being like a high usage like factor for a team. Like Lowry impacts your team a lot down the line. It'd be nice to have him, but then, like Chark said, I think it would have to be a money thing. And I don't really know, like, in the short term, what it does for you. Is there,

is there like a third option that I can think about here? Because I don't know, I don't really want to pay him that much with that tediousness of his health. But then I also don't really love the fit of Lonzo either. Well, even think about if you're Lowry, Mark Stein reported today that the Mavs are going to go pretty aggressively after him, why would, if I'm Lowry, why would I go to New Orleans over Dallas? You know, a team that's at least one step, maybe one and a half or two steps further along, a team that was pushing a really good team in the playoffs

to seven games that already has Luca Donchich, that sure has a lot of questions, but they're just further along the curve than the Pelicans are. Yeah, the Pelicans didn't go 8 in the bubble, man. That's the difference. No, but I mean, the Suns definitely showed signs of taking, like turning the corner, basically. The Pelicans, they're still very much trying to get to that point.

I guess the hot rumor that just kind of trickled out as we were recording is, I think this is from Zach Lowe. Apologies if I'm misquoting him, but like there could be Alonzo for Malcolm Brogden's sign and trade. Ooh. Now that I'd be into. Like that is a podcast full of nerds. Here's Malcolm Brogden and immediately just perks up. That could be interesting now. Quickly, before we turn to the draft, so the Grizzlies do have 10.

What is the difference, uh, charts between 17 and 10 and the type of player they can get? And like, is there an obvious candidate they can now target that they couldn't target later in the draft? I think so. I mean, the range from like, there's a range probably like eight to 15 of players who are similarly valued. And the difference is those guys tend to have higher floors.

Like the guys at 17 you might could get, they're guys who could be good or could fall out of the league because they're missing parts of their game. Whereas the guy like, for example, Moses Moody. he's a Arkansas swing man, really solid 3 and D player. He's going to be gone by 17. You get him at 10, you can gamble, we can develop him, but you have a surefire NBA player,

whereas the guy at 17, he might not be in the league in three or four years based on a skill set. That's kind of the difference in my mind. Kyle, any favorites in the middle of the draft? It might behoove them to, it might be better for them because at 10, they might be, like, pressured to overreach for a player

that might be there at 17. Like I was arguing yesterday that they're like there are a couple. I just think they need like really dependable as close to volume shooters as they can get. And you know, you don't necessarily want to reach for like a Kisperd at 10. Maybe maybe you would. I don't know. But like Chark said, I think that there are going to be some guys that are good fits for them that are sort of, they're probably going to last in the NBA.

Maybe if their upside isn't necessarily as high for them. They need to nail this. You know, I know we have that in the dock. Like they need to get this right. And I think that this gives them a chance because there's not really super upside guys that fit their needs in that range. So I think overall this could work for them considering, I don't know. There's a lot of guys that I'm sure we could talk about that fit well for them in that range. One thing I wanted to point out for we change topics.

I love that Justin's piece today was about AD time in the Pelicans and how it relates to this. And like what a formative experience in Justin's life. Everything must go back to those 80 years. All roads lead to New Orleans. I have 10,000 hours in pain and suffering, my friend. When you've seen Luke Babett take 15 shots a game and get a pass from Norris Cole and feed Omar Ashik in the paint, you've had some emotional scarring happening. No, but I do think, like, I don't know how deeply when I get into this, but I do see

some parallels to this. Like, the Zion being unhappy after a year and a half there is pretty troubling. on the one hand, you could say this is just how it goes with star players. You're going to have to cater to them and perhaps even more so than they did with AD just because of how accelerated the paces with superstars and making them happy and bringing in other players around them. But on the other hand, like, you know, they do have them under contract for a very long time. So I'm not sure, but there are some pretty concerning signs.

I'll say that in the very least, but go read the piece if you want to. I don't think the pelicans are wrong. we should say to act with urgency surrounding Zion. I don't think that's necessarily the wrong instinct. Now, we can quibble with the moves and whether they should have done the Blood So and Adams thing, all that. But as to whether they should be moving forward aggressively,

I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest they should. Yeah, I mean, really, if you want to go a big picture with it, it is about, like, how quickly do you need to build around a star now? Like, for a while, we would always, like, have confidence that they were going to sign a second contract. I think that's still very much true. someone really needs to break the paradigm and in pretty much decline a second contract rookie extension in order to think differently about this. But I mean, if someone's going to do it,

as I've said in previous podcast, I do think Zion would be a prime candidate for it, just considering how much money he makes from marketing opportunities. And it already seems like he's carrying himself like an established superstar, which is something that not even AD did during his earlier years. Something he has going for him that AD didn't. And I don't know if you had this in your piece, but like 80s always kind of struggled to be as somebody who's watched him closely. He's always kind of struggled to have that market. Same type of marketability. Like Zion is just a tier above him.

So I think that that's a really good point that he has that going for him, for sure. But at the end of the day, like, no one's saying Memphis has got to keep Jah happy because we all know Jaws happy because they're a well-run team that's in the playoffs. Like, yes, you want to win, but don't overthink this. It's just be a well-run franchise. Right. All right. Let's pivot here to the rest of the NBA draft.

So as Rob alluded to up top, he and I, not so much draft officiados. No. Rob, how many draft players or can you think you can name in this pool? If this were a sporkle quiz, it would be truly disappointing results. I'll put it that way. But luckily, we have two experts. I'm just going to lie to you. That's what I'm going to do.

I'm just going to lie so that you. We control. We control Rob's knowledge. He can really just make a fool of himself here. Just lie now and then see how many of your fake takes end up in my stories later in the season. I'm not going to say they won't. As Charles Barkley always says,

only God's an expert. So good luck, Rob, before we give you. There you go. All right, so we have a couple questions for you experts to inform us before we get to Thursday's main event here. I'll start us off here. Let's go big picture. We're coming off 2021.

NBA finals just was that last week. Good God. I can't keep track of it anymore. We talked a little bit before about the Chris Paul effect. You're starting to see some teams kind of mobilized in that direction. I believe Brian Winhorse had a piece on this on ESPN that other teams

are looking at that situation and thinking, if we get a veteran in here into our building young team, like maybe we could turn the corner in the same way. Charks, as you're looking at this draft, do you think there are any lessons that are trickling in from the playoffs that could be applied to how teams make their choices? I think to me, and it's kind of something we've always known,

but this playoffs just like even further reinforce it to me is the value of big, perimen long wings, like waves of three and D wings. You look at the Hawks. You had Hunter, Reddish, Herder, used to a bunch of guys, the sons, bridges, Johnson, Crowder. And then even the bucks, you have Janus, Middleton, and Holiday. They're all like wing-like players with two-way ability. And when you just have like this army of wings, that seems to really matter in the playoffs after your stars, right?

Like there are stars on bad teams that go nowhere every year. It's like, okay, now I have my star in Devin Booker and I've got three wings around. I can just swarm people. Same with Shrey Young and Atlanta. So to me, it's like, okay, if I'm drafting, I've got to get me my wings. I've got to get my long, my long aggressive athletes who can spread the floor and defend. And it's something we're always known, right? but to me it's like three and D just has to be top of your board if you're like most teams,

in my opinion is. Depends on what the situation you're in. I mean, I feel like sort of the template for building a team is like, okay, superstar, if you can get it, I think if you're in a position to get a person that could be a superstar, I still think that trumps everything because that's sort of the thing that is hovering over these past playoffs is that like as good as the Hawks were, as good as the bucks were. It's like down the line, we had a bunch of teams that were without guys. and that plays a factor.

You know, you know, congratulations and I'll do credit to the Bucks, obviously. But I think you, I think Charks is right, but I think you have to start with like a really strong core, we'll call it an idea like for your team. Like with the Sixers, it's in B, you know, with the Bucks, it's Yonis. You have to get that first. And then the wings just give you flexibility in the playoffs because if you don't have that flexibility, teams can make a couple tweaks and then shut your water off, which we saw, we saw that with the Knicks. you know, like they just didn't have that flexibility and they were done. With the Hawks, yeah, like they just kept going because they just had this crazy flexibility. So, yeah, I think that that's true.

And that's what you want in the playoffs. And that's what we're doing this for is to win in the playoffs. So those are the players that should be prioritized when you can get them. I do think, though, whether we're talking about the draft or free agency or team building in general, one of the things that I'm coming out of these playoffs with is I think we need to adjust to a post-Lebron playoff environment. Like we're so used to looking at the playoffs through the lens of the specific way

that LeBron attacks mismatches. The idea that if you have any weak link on the floor defensively, he can pick them apart, he can attack them, he can put them in the basket. I think we saw in a lot of these series that was not the case. Even some laid into the playoffs and Trey Young is a prime example of that. The idea that if you

have a player who's that good offensively but kind of a weak link defensively, there are places to hide him if you have that versatility if you have the wings to, you know, control your matchups a little bit. And I wonder, you know, who is the next guy in the league who's really going to exploit mismatches the way LeBron does? I think Luca is a candidate for that. But on the other side of the ball, Luca does the same thing. He's the guy who's hidden for the exact same reason. So I think there may be a little more room than there was over the last, say, almost two decades for really good star level offensive

talent to get away with not being a good two-way player. I think there's going to be more room for that with the way the game is played right now. Right. Well, Charks, when you're talking about some of these wings who might be able to have that two-way impact, is there someone in the draft that kind of best represents that, someone that maybe people are overlooking or maybe don't have as high on their board who could take advantage of that, I guess we'll call it a market inefficiency. I don't know if it's that specifically, but something like that. I think this is a guy me and Kyle can talk about for a while, like Zaire Williams. We spent like all year being like, just we got to believe Even Zaire, man. Zaire, I think, is one of the most interesting players in this draft.

Yeah, he's not getting talked about a lot, but this is a guy who's a legit six foot nine. He can move pretty well. He's got a good looking stroke. And he had a very up and down freshman season at Stanford for a number of reasons. But I look at him and I'm like, if I'm going to make a mistake on a player, let it be a 610 wing with the jump shot. That's a great player to miss on because what you could get if we get its rise is just the value is so high. Yeah, I mean, there are dings on him that are understandable. I know people are, he's for Rob, for the people who are getting acclimated to the draft, he is, he is very camretishy.

That's what I always say. He's very tall and skinny. He has like a center of gravity where he can get bumped around. Like he needs strength off the dribble. If you get into his body, he like loses control pretty easily. But he looks like a spider, basically. Like he is huge. he's one of the things too is like he wasn't totally consistent as a shooter like let's see I think he was like 47% true shooting as a freshman but I believe in the catch and shoot I believe in the defensive versatility I think those other things will come one of the things for me is that I feel like there's there are plenty of like catch and shoot guys that I think are going to be applicable quickly I don't know I say applicable quickly in the NBA there's not as many like catch

catch, shoot, but also can, like, play make off the dribble wings. I feel like it's a little shallower in that sense. Sharks, do you agree or disagree with that? I mean, yeah, I mean, if you give a wing who can catch, shoot, and make plays, he's like a top five pick, right? Like, those guys, they're, their reason they're high up on the boards. So if you're in the 10, 15, 20 range, you got to sacrifice something. And that's where I think it's so valuable in the draft if you already have a

John Morant, right? If I've already got a really good playmaker, then I can draft a more limited guy like Zaire and say, okay, joccing of this guy four or five open shots in a game, keep them in rhythm, keep him comfortable. And the value of that is just so high when you already have the playmaking piece. Because that's what most young guys don't have.

A young guy with playmaking ability is going to be a really high pick, generally. I just like that calling someone Cam Redd as she has gone from almost a backhanded compliment to now just kind of an actual compliment. All right. It's amazing what a couple playoff games can do for you. Let's move on to

our next question here. And I want to talk about top of the draft because I hear all the time about Cade Cunningham, Jalen Green, Evan Mowbly. It seems like that tier has kind of solidified itself even as a sub-tier of the top five guys. We heard so much about coming into this draft. If anything, it seems like Jonathan Kaminga keeps falling farther and farther away from us in the horizon. But those three, Kyle, can you kind of differentiate those guys? Like, who amongst them would you put number one? I mean, I've had Cade number one for a while.

I know Charks differs on me and I'll let him speak to that. But I say that Cade and Mowgli, the thing that separates them is that I think they could be legitimate offensive hubs as in like they can score and play make at a high level. They can have a whole offense run through them. But they also both are potential like high upside defensive players. I mean, I think it's Mobley more likely could be like an all defensive player. I could see that in his career. maybe even first team at some point.

I mean, that's high outcome. And Cade is a really smart switchable defender too. That is really hard to come by. If you can find two-way guys that do that. Now, I don't know that either one of them are like elite, elite scores, like a Hardin-Luca type or, you know, we're talking like first-team all-NBA type of guy. But they definitely have high floors in that sense.

That's to me what separates them and why I believe in them. And the next two guys, I think, are pretty good. And their ceilings could push them past these two guys. But I think that the floor of Cade and Mowgli is what makes them one and two for me. Yeah, I was just thinking about it. Like, Kyle, what would you say as like an equal value of one and two in the last couple drafts? I have two guys who I'm fairly certain are going to be superstars who are going to raise a teams that get on automatically. And all of a sudden, these are relevant teams.

Usually you might get like Luca or a Joelle of Bede. But to get two in the same draft. is pretty rare. Yeah, I mean, the last time we had that was probably 18. We had, you know, a lot of, of course, you know, Trey and Luca. I'm trying to just jog my memory on that. It doesn't happen very often. I mean, it's a special draft where you can get a guy like that, one guy like that. But I also don't know that the offensive upside, like I said, I'm not totally convinced. It's weird because you'll have, you'll talk to people. It really kind of just paints draft philosophy. Like, that's what you end up getting into. Because if we're just talking,

talking about two-way impact, you really should put Jalen Suggs in there, too. Because if you watch him shoot the ball, it's like this guy can shoot off the dribble, he can shoot off the catch, he's mean as hell getting to the rim, he's a, he's a tough finisher. But he also, you'll hear defensive comparisons for him of like Drew Holiday. So, I mean, that's a hell of a two-way player. But I think that he's more of like an above-average starter quality player who's going to be, I'm sure they're going to be blog pieces in the next five to ten years about how Jailen Suggs should be a top. The most important thing, right? That's like the kid. Yeah. You can, And based their whole career off that if they get those blog,

log spots for sure. He's a guy that, you know, could like, oh, actually, Jalen Suggs is the top 25 player. I could see people being like, you know, depending on your philosophy. Yeah. But then, but then Jalen Green, you get people who are really,

the real Hooper crowd who are really allured by the, by the aesthetics of a guy like Jalen Green who looks the part of a young, like, dynamic scoring wing. Like, he looks the part of that, but he just has these questions that kind of keep him from having the same type of floor as those first two guys that I talked about. Yeah, I would say it's a good way to look at it

in terms of the skill sets. So Cunningham and Mobley, those are like elite playmakers with elite defensive ability. Right? So like those are guys who are going to make you better on both ends of the floor pretty quickly. And that's why it's like these are franchise players.

And then green and sugs, those are probably, they're like more all-star guards. These are guys who are going to be able to, hopefully one day defend their position, score 20, 25 points efficiently, spread the floor, get some assists. But then I would say it's like the all NBA tier

and the all-star tier. But like a draft with four guys who are that good is pretty rare. Like, I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty surprised if any of those four guys busted. Like those guys are really safe picks on top of having high value.

Absolutely. Yeah. I don't think that any of them are boom or bust. I think the difference for me, and like I said, this all comes down to philosophy. If I always use like the computer metaphor. I think that Mobley and Cade are much more of like the motherboard variety where you can

like plug pieces into them, whereas like green is going to need to be optimized. Like and Suggs, Suggs honestly is applicable everywhere too just because every team needs like a guy who wants to guard the ball and can hit threes. Like I think he's going to be that type of guy. But I think that like Kate and Mowgli are the types of guys that could come in and you can, they're flexible. You can, you can fit different pieces and work with them. So I value that really highly. Wait, so if they're not motherboards,

are they just like a dope video card? That's what I was going to say. That's like a really good. I haven't followed the video card game in a while. So just like a really good Nvidia, I don't know. I mean, you're going to probably hear criticism of Green,

I think possibly because he could be somebody that puts up good stats, but doesn't quite do it. you know, maybe the team won't win. Like, Charks and I were talking about this the other day that, like, Booker got the same types of criticism for a while because he's a lead scoring guard, but he's not a playmaker. So you're going to have to optimize him with another playmaker to make him look good, basically.

Rob, did you follow all that? I did. And, you know, I've heard Charks really going around pouring pictures of Evan Mowgli Kool-Aid across all our platforms, all our podcast. I mean, my cup overfloweth. I am ready to believe in Evan Mowgli. he's exactly the kind of prospect I want to be sold on. So the idea that, I mean, if he can be the kind of player we're talking about,

that's a really exciting player for the NBA to have, much less for any team to have. Well, I'm curious about Mobley, though, because I'm always wondering about the state of big men, because I feel like it's flipping from one season to the next. We used to say, like, oh, well, you know, you can get them anywhere, and then all of a sudden we're saying they're the key to playoff games. Anthony Davis unlocks the Lakers, DeAndre Aiton helps spring the suns for the run this season.

Like, shouldn't Mowbly considering everything he's able to do at his size be the most coveted prospect? I'm a little confused by that, Charks. Can you help me out here? You're speaking my language. You just made my case right there. No, I mean, I think Mowgli is a couple different things going on. He's a big man, so he's not valued as much.

B, he wasn't on a very good team in college. Like, I think if he had been on a good team that made the final four or a championship game, it had been a little more obvious his skills. He's a big man playing with no guards and no spacing on a bad college team, basically. So I think that's held him back. And then also, he's skinnier. So he's 7 foot 215. And if you're drafting mobile, you're thinking, can I get him to like 235, 240?

Like the AD journey, the Janus journey, you're kind of drafting a little bit of a raw clay, right? You're going to have to make this guy bigger and stronger, whereas Kate has already done. Like, kid's coming in tomorrow with an NBA body, NBA game. like he could be an all-star in two years. So it's a little bit more of the quick thing versus you have to project long-term with Voblin. What do you think the value of, you know, we've seen like the value of

defensive anchors. Like I think the versatility of defensive anchors has been a big thing. Like it's been the thing that has sort of like put the death nail in teams in the finals the last two years. Like if you have a big, lanky five who can play drop

but not surrender the mid-range. Like we saw that. with we saw that with AD when he finally went five, you know, last year. Then we saw Yannis when they, when they decided to put him five. It was like, it became a lot harder for Phoenix to like manufacture that midrange offense. It's like some of these seems, the commonality weirdly there is that like both teams seem hesitant to like do that from the jump. That's sort of like their like last card that they're going to whatever Pokemon card would analogy there. I don't know. Rob, you seem like a Pokemon analogy guy. What would be the what would be the card? I'm sure you know. What does that say about me

I seem like a Pokemon card analogy guy. Is it a Charazard or something? I don't know. I'm thinking, Rob, what does it say that you actually know the answer, though? Oh, that's a whole different can of worms.

But I think the metaphor is probably a little off. I'm not sure there's like a game winning card in quite that way. See? Well, since I'm cool, I didn't know that. See. That's how we have you on for the expert check. Yeah,

and I think, too, with, I would say it's almost, it's less how, like, the Bucks use Janus, first how the Lakers use Anthony Davis. us two years ago. And like that kind of, it isn't just having

the seven footer who can guard the rim. It's like, I'll put you on your point guard. When the Lakers put AED on Jimmy Butler, the finals, and then this year for the heat, in that first game

of that series, first round, it was like, oh, now Yannis is guarding Butler. Like, the series is over. I just turned you off.

I'm too big and long if you do anything on me, basically. So if I have a seven foot in that kind of defensive weapon, I think that's going to become more frequent in the years to come as like aggressively deploying

seven footers to take out their team's best score. Whereas in the past, like a defensive anchor needed to be a big bruising guy. Now, today the way the game is played, where it's more horizontal, lateral movements, closeouts, things like that. It helps to have a Mobley who, you know, because

it just, it helps to have a Mobley who can fit that mold. I do think it's interesting that for a while now we've been using Javille McGee as kind of the template for the guy you could find anywhere. It's like, oh, bouncy center who could protect the rim a little bit and then every team needs Javille McGee, including Team USA. It just like, it seems like

there was this belief that like you could find these guys off the street, but I think it's actually tougher than we actually assume because the specific type of big you need, to Kyle's point, isn't so easy to find. He needs to be mobile. He needs to be able to get out onto the perimeter a little bit. So I don't know. I'm starting to question whether or not being a big man like is as bad as it seemed like it for a stretch. Well, does every team need a Javelle McGee? Like, he couldn't even get off the bench for the nuggets, really. I think that undersells Mowgli's IQ and what else it gives.

But, yeah, I mean, body type. Well, no, I'm just talking in a broad sense here. Yeah. But you're saying, like, the mercenary school of center acquisition versus using a top three pick on it. Sure. Like, well, Charks, you have Kai Jones ranked highly and you talked about him as a sleeper.

Is he anywhere near the type of mold I'm thinking? Kind of, I think with Jones, I'm just looking like, kind of already about valuing certain things. I'm just looking for really tall guards. So Kai Jones is 6-11 guy with perimeter skills. And I'm like, I want a really tall guard on my team. Maybe he can develop into that. Let's go for it.

This is the most valuable kind of player. That's my thought on it anyways. Whereas there's still plenty of guys in this draft. Like there's like a Charles Bassi from Western Kentucky. You can draft him. He can be. a backup center tomorrow. There's a bunch of back. There's always backup centers in the draft,

I feel like. Even there's not even first round picks. Sure. I don't know, man. Would have been nice if some of these teams had Javille McGee here. That's all I'm saying. What a hill. What a hill to die on here. Justin Pop and nobody else. Look how important

Bobby Portis was for that team in the playoffs. They need backup center minutes. That's all I'm saying. He can shoot. That's a totally different player. All right. All right. It's true. All right. Next question. which prospect is being overhyped? Is it Jovell McGee?

I would not draft Javelle McGee if I were you. Young Javelle McGee would probably get some buzz in this draft, but you know, time has a way with everybody, you know what I mean? Sure. So, Charks, who do you think is the prospect now that's being talked about too much

and is being overhyped in this pre-draft process? Yeah, I guess it's just, I would say that the nice thing about this draft is you have to get all the way to five before you're like, I don't know about these players right here. So I would say, yeah, I mean, then it gets interesting the guys from like five to eight or nine. That's probably where most of the discussion is going to be because the top four guys are pretty well known. I think who you, like, I would say like the team's the top four.

The pick pretty much makes itself, like not too much going on. But five, six, seven, eight, nine, like you're going to really swing your franchise one or the other. And it can go either way. Like none of those guys, I think, are particularly safe from five to nine. So you're just kind of like. And that goes, that can say Jonathan Camingo probably. He's probably the one, he was seen as a top five pick coming into it. He struggled in the G League.

And now he's really been falling on boards. And then you just wonder at what point does this talent make just going forward worth it. Yeah, I think that that's a good point because he is a guy who physically just, you see this a lot with like physically dominant players. It can kind of, if they're not in the right environment and if they're not wired a certain way, it can kind of slow down the pace at which they kind of learn the more sophisticated advanced aspects of the game. So like Coominga, you had a guy who's just absolutely bullet. Nobody could do anything with him. Like when you would see him in high school, he was just a man. He was sort

of Sean Kempian. Like he's just this fully developed guy out there abusing people. And he could kind of make his first decision and no one could do anything about it. Well, then you don't have like an ease of a transition of like going to a college and play. with guys that are his age, but the schemes get better. Instead, we throw him into the G League where it's a bunch of people. Another thing that people kind of underrate about the G League is that the teams that were playing against the G League, they wanted to embarrass these kids. Like, I mean, A, because they were getting paid a lot.

I'm not saying, like, in a malicious way, but it was their opportunity. These games were on TV. So it was just like, it was a pretty jarring thing for a guy with his specific challenges to be thrown into. And he reclassified. So he's pretty young. So if you're thinking about, like, guys that do, he has the highest upside, but you're talking about boom or bust.

It's like Kuminga also just like in terms of like feel and ball skills and things like that, if he gets in the wrong situation, he could turn into, we talked about him as like a poor man's kind of Jeff Green type player. He could quickly become a journeyman type player in the NBA because it's not unusual for guys who are ranked high to become journeyman in the NBA. We've seen that happen. It's just depends on how the factors play out. But I agree with Charks that like Cumminga is a guy that could swing really high.

Like he has star potential. With all this Cuminga talk, I'm kind of wondering for you guys, was this a typical year in terms of the draft discussion and backlash cycle? You know, like did it unfold in a way that it usually does or were things a little different because of the circumstances because of some of, you know, the COVID complications and all these other various like factors that worked into it? I would say, I mean, it was just, I think the ignite thing, in terms of the job. draft process, that to me was a much bigger difference in this year's draft. It's like trying to

figure out, because normally, okay, if a guy goes to Kentucky, you know what kind of coach Cal's about, you know how his teams are put together, what kind of role is going to have. You can kind of deduce from the past. But the Ignite thing is just so new. You have four top 20 kids, a bunch of guys in their late 30s playing. I think like Brian Shaw ran a triangle for a while. It was like really weird. And you're like, is this the best way to prepare these guys for the NBA is running the triangle? Okay. So I think that part has been really weird to figure out. And I think NBA teams are figuring out what the Ignite process does to prospects and how to evaluate them in that very unique setting.

There's a lot of questions that go into the Ignite thing. It's like if they really, I wanted to talk to somebody from Ignite about this. I couldn't get in touch with anybody. But about like how they orchestrate the roster because this is really. sort of a science experiment in a weird way because you can't really simulate putting young players in a cluster to play. It'd be like you're just not going to get older players that are credible enough to like potentially play in the NBA. You're not going to get them into the situation to play younger players like this. So you kind of had to pay attention to the

way it was constructed. I mean like Bobby Brown was their point guard and he is just no offense to him, but I mean just ultra washed. And then Jared Jack, so you had some stability. And then, yeah, Brandon Ashley and, like, Dante Hall was like the other guy on the two. So it was a really weird. It was a weird viewing experience. It's like you're watching Jalen Green, right? And all of a sudden it's Jared Jack Amir Johnson picking rolls. What is going on right now?

I mean, Jared Jack will show up to your family cookouts like basketball game just for 50 bucks. He's always looking for a job. And I respect it. The guy is like always playing. I will say to Rob's question about the backlash, if you ask any college basketball fan. They'll tell you about Jalen Suggs' game winning shot and how important that was for his marketability and his NBA future. I have to say, I've had my fill of that at this point. And I do wonder, like, where and like what that actually did to benefit him. It definitely maybe put him

on the minds of like more moms and more casual fans than would have been the case usually. But I don't know, as we're going to this draft process, I'm like, I don't hear as much about Suggs as I do about the guys who are going to go ahead of him. See, Justin, I think what you would say for a college fan, it's more about Jalen Suggs went to this very, very well-run college program with like four really good shooters around him and looked like a really good basketball player in the perfect setting. And that's what college can provide. The Ignite team was just kind of a half-hastard bunch of veterans with no real connective tissue. So like, if Jalen Suggs had been on the Ignite team, he's probably not being drafted at top four because he's had a more up and down season. Whereas

if Jonathan Kaminka had been at Gonzaga, he's going to look a lot better. He's playing with two NBA point guards, playing with, you know, NBA big men, NBA spacing around him. I'm like a really, really well-run organization. And that's what a good college program, that's why Gonzaga got like Chet Holmgren this year, the top pick. Because now it's like, you come to Gonzaga, you're going to be well-run, you're going to have a really good season, good numbers. They run NBA style schemes. It's sort of similar to the Villanova thing. That's why those are two of the best offensive teams in college from the last few years. And that rising tide lifts everyone. You see guys get overpicked like Omari Spelman. But then like it just gives players

an opportunity to develop, I think, in a way that's in a way that's positive for them. Because Suggs definitely, it's hard to know. I mean, it's hard to know if he would have been this high somewhere else or if he'd been in the Ignite system. But he did move from that like 7, 8, 9, 10 range discussion to the forefront because he was with, he was sort of the star that propelled Gonzaga into being like a pretty good team to like a special team. But I think the other factor of this, Rob, like on your question is it was a year, a weird year, as we all know, uh, it was a very strange year. These unprecedented times, you know. Yeah. And I think that that, that, that created some weird situations where a guy like, I don't know that he would be any higher, but like Jalen Johnson left, you know,

I know for a fact, COVID and being away from home affected Brandon Boston. I know, yeah, I mean, it affected Zaire Williams. So there's that factor of it, too. I'm sure teams are really having to do a lot of, like, intelligence research that they would do anyway, but like factoring that in, I think that that's a part of it. Yeah, there was an interesting comment here in the green room chat from Charlie Dutton, who said that he thought, you know, the one and done guys who had a bad freshman or COVID season, but were highly ranked recruits coming in,

they might be the obvious market inefficiency here. Maybe people are over-correcting on the weirdness of these circumstances. I mean, that's certainly an interesting idea and something I could see a lot of scouts and NBA people getting tied up in. Yeah. Well, that actually segues nicely to my next question here, which is the other side of the original question I asked, who's the most under hype prospect going into Thursday's draft?

So basically, who's your favorite sleeper? Kyle, do you have your... guy. I have a cluster of sleepers. Ooh, a cluster. And these, these aren't all like, you know, sleepers that like this guy should be top five. These are all just like these guys could outperform where they're thought about. There's a few. There's a guy from Seton Hall that I actually think could be like a backup center in the NBA. Oh, wow. You're going deep cuts here, Kyle. Go Pirates. Sandro Mammo Kalashvili. He's a guy. I really practice that. Mamu Kelesvili. He's 611.

I mean, he's like an elbow operator, like, can hit open threes. I think that he could be a decent drop defender. Like, he's a backup big, but I think he could be, he's a pretty clever passer. I think that he definitely could be a backup big. I'll go, the next one that I think could definitely play in the NBA, and I think we're undervaluing his shooting. I think Matthew Hurt, if he was a little bit, I think if Matthew Hurt was from Duke, Matthew Hurd is like 610.

He has, I was telling Bill this yesterday, because I think he would love him. He literally has a Larry Bird 2 motion jump shot. He literally does. Okay, let me stop right there. Kyle Singh, Bill would love Matthew Hurt is hilarious. No, I was telling him because he has a bird-esque shot, basically. That's what I was telling you.

It's bird-eartian. He doesn't need to load up into a shot. He could shoot any direction off of movement. It's just the defensive thing. I think if he was the same size as Corey Kisper, like in terms of build, he's super skinny. He doesn't have like an aesthetically pleasing game. across the board. The last one, Sharks, I don't know if you know about this guy. KOC did not have

a glowing opinion on him, but there's a guy in this draft that I think people should go watch because he's pretty fun. He's ultra confident. He played in the Belgium League for, I can't even. His name is Vrenz Blasjjenberg. I feel like you guys are talking about indie bands in the 90s that I've never heard of. Go look up Vrenz Blijsenberg. I've been calling him PMP, poor man's Poku because he basically he's really he's basically he's very well I'm just it's kind of odd because the

things that we lauded Poku for a year ago we were like this dude's huge he's really fluid with the basketball he's super creative and experimental Blaschenberg we're not giving him the same credit I just think it's interesting now he is wild like he is super super wild he's the kind of guy that would have been taking like top five

in like 2002 and would have busted out of the league. somebody's going to take him. He's just an interesting proposition. So those are just three names. I have a bunch more. Kyle went really deep in you with you. Those are late second round picks.

Those are really steep cuts. If you want, Kyle will host his own green room after this and he'll go through the entire Belgium league to let you know who could maybe end up in your NBA team in a couple of years. George, you have more legitimate sleepers since I hit him with the deep cuts. I was thinking about, I think the guy who's really interesting is this guy named Bones Highland from V. Love it. He's already got the name. He's got some rap songs on YouTube that are pretty good, actually.

He was the one player this year I watched where I was like, oh, this is like a futuristic player. This is a guy who I would expect in five years we'll see more of. He's a six foot three. And imagine like an is Smith speed shooting guard whose only job is the bomb threes. Like he'll bomb from 30 feet, 35 feet. The whole offense was basically run around a billion screens and just, bomb threes as soon as you can. He took like 10 threes a game.

Bonn Island has a 6-9 wingspan. You should I add that in there too. Yeah, so I just like a player like that who's that fast, like that good as shooter. It's like that's a really interesting player on the right team. I don't even care if these players are fake at this point. I just want to live in a world where Bones Highland is an all NBA player. I'll tell you who physically he reminds me of.

And this is sort of a pitfall from watching players as if like they have like a similar haircut and they wear the same number or they're like you can fall into this. but he kind of reminds me, like, play style-wise of Emmanuel Quickly. I think Quickly's a better player, but he is similar to him and that he is like sort of a quick dribble shooter. And his shot is fast, like quickly too. So he could end up on, he could end up making some noise. I wouldn't be surprised.

Watch out for bones, y'all. All right, let's flip just some questions here because we have to get going. How about we take this first one from Michael Garcia? Will Moody be there for the Sacramento Kings at number nine? He might not. I would say his range is probably 7 to 12, 7 to 13. I think it's possible he goes. I could see Orlando taking him at 8 maybe, just as a shooter.

That would make sense to me. If they, like, go for a gamble at 5, take kind of solid shooter at 8. I think that's his range for sure. He could be there at 9. He could be not. He's more 12 to, like, 16 range for me. I think that'd be a little bit of a reach for Moody. I don't know that, like, Moody's not quite the, like,

rangey, flexible athlete. Like he's a pretty solid catch and shoot guy. To me, he seems more likely to, he's not going to like blow anybody away with like explosiveness or like finish like a wild crazy McHale Bridges type finisher or anything like that. Of course, that's a special player. But I expect him to be more of a like getting the mid range and create his own shot, sort of a, I don't know, more of a physical shot creator than like a fast fly around guy. For sure. He's not very athletic. Nick Eller asks who is more likely to be picked seventh.

Giddy, Boknight, or Giddy? It's two Gitties. Oh. I would think Booknight. Yeah. Booknight is probably be five, six, or seven. Giddy has a wider range probably of teams he would go to.

I would think, yeah. I was surprised that you guys didn't bring up Boknight with the overhyped question. Well, I mean, I've only seen maybe 10 minutes of him. That's more than enough, Justin. More than enough to them. Pretty much. There's a lot of just pass, pass, pass.

isolation just running into a crowd of defenders and maybe getting fouled and I'm just like, this guy? I mean, if you're playing group chat bingo at home, we've talked about Justin's Pelicans experiences and Yukon, just go ahead and take that free space, you're almost there. My question is, what do you think about

Denham Brown? Do you think that he would be a top 10 pick in this draft? Wow, I'm impressed. Underrated, under-hyped, Denham Brown. He scored like, didn't he scored like 60 points in a game one time? Anyway, yeah, I mean, Giddy's downside is the shooting. I mean, if the shooting is there, it'll unlock a lot for him.

Like, Giddy's a talented, big playmaker, great feel. But he shoots, he's just got an awkward shot. I think whoever takes him, but he shows some touch. It's just a big question mark. And for a player like him, I think it's tough because he doesn't really have the types of pluses that you could get away with it. But I mean, book night, yeah, book night's kind of one of those guys that we were talking about maybe who's overhyped.

I don't totally understand it. I mean, the shot creation signs are there, but he's not really a consistent shooter from three. Like, is he a guy that's going to be like a secondary playmaker type of type of player? I don't know. I'm skeptical on Book Knight, too, probably lower than most people, honestly. Kyle, it goes back to your motherboard thing, I think, back at the beginning of the pod. Like Book Knight's a guy who can probably score 18 points anywhere because he's just a very creative

score. So on a good team, having got to let your bench is really valuable because I was 18 free points. on a bad team, having guys just jack up a bunch of shots and not really guarding you when it's not that valuable. Yeah. Like I think there are some other guys, it's like shot, legit shock creators in this.

I mean, there's an outcome where like, I mean, Bones Highland is a pretty talented shot creator. Bring it all back. Well, I mean, Cam Thomas is the guy brought up the other day that is a pretty talent.

Josh Christopher is a really, if you're going to just talk about guys that are going to come in, Josh Christopher, he's the type of guy. He thinks he's the best player in the draft. I guarantee you. Like, he's like a Lonnie Walker type of,

But like could go crazy and go for 30 or he could go 0 for two for 18. And, you know, he's that type of player. I would say the difference between Book Knight and those guys is Book Knight's an older player, a little more experience and kind of play in a system. Whereas if you draft Josh Christopher and Cam Thomas, they're coming in the game and taking 10 shots. Like that's just how they play basketball. And so with Book Knight at least, you can be part of his system.

Whereas with those two guys, I mean, Cam Thomas, I think he had the NSA record for fewest assists based off field goal attempts like ever. He averaged like 17 shots and one assist. It was preposterous. He's a score. Well, I do think that opens up a window to talk about the Warriors here. They are one of the more fascinating teams in this draft. Do you guys think, just, Rob, just from a big picture, team building perspective,

it would make more sense for them to take these two picks, number seven and 14, or are you in the camp that they should be trading them as much as possible, get a veteran in there, and take advantage of the window with stuff? Well, it would make most sense. trade them. But they're in a similar position to where they were last year where if Bradley Beale isn't available and we're talking about do you trade these picks for basically role players, I don't know that that makes a lot of sense for them either. So they're kind of in an awkward middle ground where unless things develop with Beal really quickly, I think they're going to have

to make these picks and hope that they choose the right guys. And that puts them in a really interesting position in terms of intel. Like do you pick the players you want or do you pick the players you think the wizards might want or do you hope that there's some overlap between those two things? Yeah, I mean, it's going to be a challenge for Golden State. Like, they're going to have to, if they keep these picks, they're not going to be sure things. They're not to develop these guys, get them minutes, get them the right kinds of roles or in their careers. And, you know, the obvious conflict, right? It's like, oh, I have my top seven pick needs to play this role on the team.

It's like, we have Steph and Clay and Draymond. There's no time for like roles that don't have the team win. You saw it with Wiseman this year. They started benching more and more because it's like, we've got to win right now. We can't afford to kind of slowly move you along. So it puts school and stayed in a tough position. Yeah. Some teams can afford to have like,

you remember like the danger room from X-Men where they had like that fake simulator thing where you could go in there. Some teams are bad enough where you can, it's like the results don't matter. Like the warriors are like, no, this is like you got to be bad already right now. Like we can't play.

We can't develop you. We don't have that kind of time. I was trying to think about like trade partners for them. I mean, yeah, Washington kind of makes sense. I was wondering like Indiana. Do you think Indiana could be a team that would they be interested in picking

at 7 and 14 and moving off of like a Brogden, like a Lavert, like maybe even a Jeremy Lamb? I can tell you this. With Rick Carlisle in charge, the answer is no. Like they're not trying to bring in more young players.

That was the first thing came out of Indiana. It was like, oh, Rick Carlis is number 13. Let's go ahead and trade this pick. Sure. Oh, we don't play that. It's interesting from a draft perspective, though, because both the Warriors and the Magic

both have two lottery picks. And it's interesting to see the types of players that people mock them for because I almost wonder, like, if you pick a certain type of player with your first picked, do you go in the opposite direction with your second? So if you pick the safe thing at seven, do you gamble a little bit more at 14 or do you go vice versa? Or like if you're the Warriors and you're in a particular situation, are you just drafting best player available? You need the talent and you'll figure it out later. I think for Golden State, then with Kaminga is going to be one of the most fast. fascinating storylines. If they have them available at seven, will they pull a trigger on the high upside guy who can maybe develop into a star or go for a safer player? And then, I mean,

it's fascinating to think about like comming gun and Wiseman on this veteran-laden team or whether that could work. I'd be really curious to see if it could. Or at seven, do you take someone like, yeah, Franz Vogne, who I love or some other like more safer pick with the more veteran player? they had a workout the other day where they had like Chris Duarte who's 24 in it Trey Murphy 3 a bunch of like Davy on Mitchell

so maybe you're maybe that what they're saying is we want win now players we need guys who can help us win next season that's the most important thing I don't know well if last season showed us anything they just need guys who can eat eat minutes like they need guys who can stay on the floor

who can relieve so you don't have to play and push Steph like there was an ongoing discussion through the season about Kerr's reluctance to push Steph's minutes I mean, ideally, you have guys who can fill that void, who can take some of that off. The one thing that always kind of irks me when talking about the Warriors and, like, team building, is that even though they had all these Hall of Fame players, pretty much a top four, top five you would want at any era, like, for any team, there always is talk about how they needed a Sean Livingston and an Andre Aguadala.

And it's just like, at a certain point, like, how much do you actually need in order to win a team? I don't really give them the benefit of doubt when they're saying, like, the issue for this team is not having a former All-Star in in order to fill in your backup minutes. That's like, it's always annoying. I think that's what Warriors fans get so upset about sometimes. They're like, let's just want to pick and roll with Steph Curry and stop running Steve Kerr's a very complicated system. Like, we have this superstar. Now you want to empower all five players while you have Steph Curry on your team. And I think where that kind of comes back around is that's what makes.

it so hard for James Wiseman was he was put in this role where he has to make decisions with the ball from the top of the key. And if James Wiseman's somewhere where he can be a role man, where his job is to just set a screen, catch lobs, I feel a lot more confident about his development. Now he's in the situation where he has to play like Kavanaugh-Luny and not like James Wiseman. It's very difficult. That's what makes it hard for the Warriors who they're drafting. They have to think about Steve Kerr's system and what that imposes on the rest of their roster. Well, I think some of the irony of that is even if they had just run pick and roll after pick and roll with Steph, the way defense is what adapt to that is just by trapping Steph as much as possible because no one else could handle the ball in that team. And then Wiseman still making decisions. He's just in kind of a Draymond Green short role. So they have to figure something out where they get more ball handlers, more shooters, more perimeter creation in general just to stabilize what they've got. Getting Clay Thompson, you know, post injury is not going to be enough.

All these trickle down to the same place. You just, you need players at the end. of offensive sequences that can hit shots or make or make decisions. And that's, that's just NBA basketball, whether or not you do that by, like, you know, Luca needs that in his brute force pick and roll approach. And, you know, Golden State needs this. They're the only, like, heavy off-screen team in the NBA. It just, they all kind of reach the same point that we're talking about here. I mean, they need Jordan Poole to be good. Like, he's ought to be a really good player for them next season. He seems pretty good. What a place to be. It's going to be a huge part of their team. Right. Austin Masters suggests,

Wiseman for Christian Wood. I don't hate that. Houston wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do it if I was Houston. Yeah. Christian Wood's awesome. You know, we're for the Christian Wood fans here, Justin.

I know. All right. Let's wrap it here with one final question. This is from user Justin Verrier. Which franchise is under the most pressure in this draft and, you know, their picks? And so you look at that a few ways. It could be the teams at the top of the draft, just picking the right guy. Or is there a team?

potentially, the magic, the warriors, who really needs to take advantage of this window because maybe they won't get it again. I mean, I would say not to be a big market guy, Golden State, what we just been talking about. Like, Golden State, the decisions they make are going to have a huge impact in the rest of Steph's career. Like, you're talking about a team that could be a championship team with the right picks are made or could lose their superstar, the wrong picks are made if they make the right

decision in the next year or two. So to me, this takes for them are just so high. Yeah, it's so hard to get to that. level to that window to taste the fresh air that that is coming in through that title window. And, you know, okay, if Orlando screws their pickup, okay, they just go from wandering in the wilderness to wandering in the wilderness for another year. You know, it's just kind of like that's what we're used to. I mean, there's the New Orleans thing, like keeping Zion happy. Toronto here is in a position here to keep, if they play it correctly, they could segue

and connect two eras together. Like, if they play it really well, that's another trade partner for Golden State potentially at like Siakum. Like if they, you know, if Toronto is interested in picking it seven and 14 and then you make a move there. Yeah, those are two teams that kind of come to mind just for me. Yeah, I mean, I would say if Toronto gets Jalen Suggs, the blog post Kyle was talking about, be written next season. There'll be a lot of, wow, Jalen Sugg was helping a good team.

They could be a top four, top five team of the East again. He could really step in and be an instant impact starter. That's pretty rare for a playoff team. What do you think about the pressure on Cleveland, just as a team? team that, you know, they're in the top three, but they have the least control over who they're going to get. They really need, you know, some forward momentum as a franchise. I think there's been some positive, you know, progression with some of the prospects individually, but it hasn't really coalesced in a way where you can see where that team is going. I mean, I think you make a good point.

It's just like who's holding them accountable for that? For a while, it seemed like Dan Gilbert was ready to pull the plug on every GM, like every six months or so. But now it seems like he's decided to give Kobe Altman just a long leash. And I guess to his credit, because it has allowed them to pick highly in the draft, which a small market team like the Cavs probably needs, especially after completely unloading all of their assets in the LeBron era. At the same time, they're really in that Orlando magic kind of in-between world, upside-down world, where it's just like, do they really have anything they could really base their franchise around? I don't know. But according to Charks, like maybe Mowgli is that guy.

So I'll 12 that ends well, I guess. I would say, I mean, if you look at their draft history, right? So the rebuild started three years ago. They had the eight pick, the fifth pick, the fifth pick. So they never were in the window

to grab an actual superstar, right? Like, that's what makes rebuilding so dangerous. If you're a bad team, it's like, okay, now that Cleveland got a top three pick, they should get a foundational piece. But that was all luck to get that top three pick.

If they had been drafting at seven again, we'd be saving the same things. There's no plan. There's no structure. this is like their one chance to get up there and kind of save their franchise basically. So I would say, I think really the way with the lottery odds changing, top three picks are more valuable now because it's harder to get them. It's purely like Oklahoma State tanked like crazy and got six.

It did nothing for them. Yeah. I mean, you're talking about the draft history. I mean, they've just made some decisions that I just don't understand. I mean, like the two smaller scoring first guards thing, I just don't get that. that, you know, for that to work, you have to have one of them has to be like a pretty high-level creator. They could have had McHale Bridges. They could have had Shea. They could have Michael Porter, Jr. And then, you know, with the Garland thing, that just doesn't really make a whole lot of

sense with me. Whatever they do is going to create more decisions for them, whether or not they have to leverage to, because people know they're going to have to make more moves. But I think if they, any of those, anything that they end up with is good. It's going to be hard for them to like screw this up unless they reach for comminga you know Jared Allen another bouncy center defensive anchor that all teams want just saying the hard to find anything you think he's getting paid this year that's for sure it's true text is right all right we'll uh we'll wrap it there uh rob and i will be back later in the week to do a free agency primer with wise kyle and sharks will be talking about the draft throughout the week so catch them on all of the various

platforms uh until then we'll see you You know,