The Ringer NBA Show - Did Rudy Gobert Set the Market For Kevin Durant?

Episode Date: July 3, 2022

Chris and Seerat begin by discussing the recent news of Zion Williamson’s deal with the New Orleans Pelicans. Then they touch on the Rudy Gobert trade and its potential impact on the current Kevin Durant situation. Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Producer: Devon Manze Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome to a golf podcast, unlike any other. This is Fairway Rowland on the Ringer podcast network. I am your starter, Joe House every week on Fairway Rowland. It is myself and our PGA tour correspondent on the ground, Nathan Hubbard, talking all things, professional golf, amateur golf, amateur betting, professional betting, amateur drinking, professional drinking by Birdie Buddies. If you want to hit them straight out there, please check out Fairway Rowland every week,

available on Spotify. Hello, and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I'm Chris Ryan, and I'm joined by Siritt. Soie, what's up, Siritt? I'm good. I'm just admiring your tan and your hat. I was off for a couple of days,

and while I was gone, it seems like half the stars in the NBA turned to their, their employers and said nice NBA franchise you got there shame if something happened to it it's like yeah they're holding holding a lot of franchises hostage but I'm not really sure if they have a gun no no I mean I think that that saying like comes from like early like 1930s mafia right like you know you would just it's not extortion it's just a suggestion sure we're going to talk about some of the goings and comings of the NBA free agency.

Obviously, we are recording this at 3.30 p.m. on a Saturday. Hope everybody's having a nice long weekend. The most recent news that I think we should probably update people on is that Zion Williamson signed a new deal with the New Orleans Pelicans. I believe it's for $193

million, but it can go up to $231 million if Zion Williamson makes an all NBA team wins the NBA MVP or wins defensive players. of the year next season. So, or is it next season or is it throughout the totality of his deal? I guess it would be next season, right? Yeah.

So Zion now also, it's worth noting as a concept that I'm learning all about in the last 24 hours, cannot be traded for Kevin Durant, which is going to be another component of what we talk about today, the KD, trade talk, all the rumors surrounding that. Sir, your thoughts on Zion and New Orleans repairing their marriage? you know, it's, it's, it's funny to me. Obviously, Zion is, you know, if you can, you don't have a choice. Like, you kind of have to lock him down. But the fact that this is like a really big win for the Pelicans just because he's not leaving. It's kind of funny to me, considering how many games he's played in the time that he's been an NBA player. But yeah, you know what? Like, it's, it kind of, it's fitting. This is kind of just like the season and the sport of, of hypothetical players and hypothetical teams. So, This is just the NBA now. Do you think that there was anything to, like something to learn from what New Orleans did

in the second half of last season where they didn't sit on their laurels, they went out and got CJ McCollum. You saw the emergence of Herb Jones and Jose Alvarado and all these scrappy young players that Griffin had brought in, David Griffin had brought in. They make this playoff run, so to speak,

which is, you know, it still ends with a first round exit. But the promise was there. And like, do you think that that made this decision easier for Zion because when he came out at the end of the Pelican season and was like, I can't sign this thing fast enough if you put it in front of me. I can't wait. Willie Green.

I love the energy. CJ B.I. Let's go. That really seemed to like change the vibe around the Pelicans and it might be like a lesson going forward for other NBA teams which is like you're never out of the fight until you tap out. Yeah, I also don't know

how much of the noise about Zion being unhappy and him wanting to go New York was actually coming from Zion himself or his family. His stepdad didn't interview New Orleans radio, basically just asserting that fact, and that nothing is coming from, nothing you hear about him being, wanting out of New Orleans is coming from him.

And now, obviously, everybody is going to say that in that situation, but considering how quickly things were, quote unquote, resolved, just kind of suggest that there might be some truth there. Like maybe,

maybe certain actors in the NBA were trying to, create a little bit of smoke or maybe there was smoke that they were trying to create like it turn into fire and it seems like maybe everything's okay and new orleans is a pretty good small market story yeah there's a really like a funny moment we're having right now where there's a tremendous amount of like psychoanalysis and dream journaling and fanfic going on that kind of more reminds me of visualization challenges really you know well it kind of reminds me of like the way political reporting changed like five years ago when Trump came into office or whatever. Like,

like, as it started to be, like, you get these, like, Maggie Haberman pieces where it's, like, 35 anonymous people are telling me this about,

like, Trump's mind state and hear all these, like, things that he's been saying. Like, and that's it's just been interesting to watch the, the coverage of these last couple of days. And the,

I think, like, I saw something where it was like, , Winhorst was like, Steve Nash is opening a fine bottle of wine tonight after the KD trade request. And I was like, is he?

like did you do does he does he does steve nash have a fine bottle of wine that he's been saving for the moment that kevin durant requested a trade or is this kind of like more of a metaphor for like how like steve nash is feeling we've really entered like the outer rim you know like this this happens sometimes on july fourth weekend nash does feel like an expensive wine type of guy i feel like all those dudes have gotten super into wine yeah yeah i mean it's kind of that's it's something that's of showing itself across the NBA right now because, I mean, it's kind of at the core of the Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving question, right? Like, how much do you want to deal with off the court and what version of a championship are you willing to win and, you know, what kind of things do you want it to mean for your franchise, essentially? It's like the built versus bought idea, but we're now like extrapolating it and getting into it and thinking about what it means, like on a deep psychological level to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to build something on your own and like watch it grow versus like bring it in.

And I don't know, everyone's different, by the way. Sure. Right? Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. The Durant that we're about to find out how different people actually are. Because like the Duran trade request and the specter of him being available is like a real test of people's, uh, cultures.

I think you know, like these franchise cultures that I do, it gets tossed around like, oh, these guys are really a developing culture. It's like, if Kevin Durant's available, what's your culture worth? Right. That's kind of like to go back to what you said at the front of the podcast, right? Like, it's more like, hey, it's a nice culture you got there. Be ashamed of Kevin Durant had a trade request. We're going to get into Kevin Durant, but I wanted to start speaking of wine with a French varietal.

Let's talk a little bit about the Rudy Gobert, Gobert trade. Obviously, RayRMBA show hit that yesterday, but I just wanted to get your thoughts on it. if I had told you that that was the hall for Kevin Durant that that was what Minnesota traded for Kevin Durant would you what would you say to that? Because I think that the idea of this Gobert deal

being almost like this strange market setter for Durant is the thing I'm most curious about. We can't just go over the details of the Gober trade in case anybody needs them. The Timberwolves get Rudy and then the Utah Jazz received Malik Beasley, Patrick Beverly, Walter Kessler, Jared Vanderbilt, and a man named Leandro Balmorrow, who I've never heard of before, frankly, but was described by the Salt Lake Tribune's Andy Larson as Joe Ingalls without a jump shot.

It's also how I describe myself. Aren't we all really Joe Ingalls without a jump shot? And then four first round picks, 2023, 2025, 27, and a top five protected pick in 29. So that was what Minnesota sent out for Rudy. and so then it becomes what the hell is a fair package for Kevin Durant then, right?

Yeah, so like it feels like five seconds ago we were talking about how first round picks were one of the most coveted assets in the NBA and how nobody wants to trade them and it used to actually be pretty difficult

to get like, you know, if you got like three first round picks into trade it probably meant that there was like a pretty solid return coming back, right? I think a lot of things have happened to change that. Rookie contracts have gotten more expensive too, right?

Especially at the lottery level where they're not exactly that bargain that they used to be. Probably second round picks have become more valuable for that now. But we're in strange territory right now. We're in really strange territory. Like, these teams are just kind of bargaining their entire futures on

moves that are interesting. Like, I'm very interested in how Gobert looks at the five and Kat at the four. And then either the other one you can talk about is Trey and Deontay Murray, that back court. You know, like any, any, any championship level team, like, has those kind of, like, wrinkles that they have to address and, like, you know, are these two going to be able to

play together? This is going to look weird. Like, that's, we'll see, right? Like, that'll be kind of fun to suss out throughout the season. But right now, we're in these situations where, like, neither of those guys is necessarily turning you into a championship team yet and you've now kind of bargained your future. And we just saw with the KD trade request how much the fortunes of Houston have changed because they basically kind of, they got the same type of picks. Raphael still looks like an absolute genius. Yeah. They got the same kind of pick package from the Nets for for Hardin. And all those picks were unprotected. It's they have the 2024, 2026 first round picks and pick swaps in 20203, 2025. And 2027.

that's basically their picks. Like having a pick swap in that situation that's unprotected is like you have there is no point like the nets could just make like the suns and forget about the draft and just not even put any resources there for the next five years

because it just doesn't matter to them. And that just looks like a much bigger deal now that Durant's out. And we'll see what happens with these teams. Like there maybe there's maybe they feel like they don't run the same level of risk. And there's reason to believe that on both ends. They have guys that are locked in for longer.

But I don't know, man. Like the Hawks just missed a play in, right? It's not like they're a bona fide playoff team. And the wolves are also just like, they're in the West. And the West is going to be healthier and stronger. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see.

One injury, right? It takes one injury or one trade demand. Let's say, let's say this doesn't work out. And Carl Towns, you know, a year from now wants out. Like, that's brutal for your future now. And, like, those picks really hurt. And let's say this team then instead, actually, it all works out and they go to the finals. And they're pretty much like a top five team.

Those picks are like the top 25 top 30. Yeah. And then Utah is like, we traded a franchise player for a bunch of role guys and picks that were essentially like total dice rolls. Yeah. I mean, the only thing I can really take and we can chat a little bit about like what Rudy means for Minnesota and whether or not how he changes their their potential or changes their ceiling. I just think it's pretty obvious my takeaway is like rich guys like redecorating.

And so Utah and Minnesota, both with relatively or brand new ownership groups or owners. New front offices, Tim Conley in Minnesota, Danny Aange, obviously having some say and what's going on with Utah, if not final say. And those guys have like no emotional or psychological investment

necessarily in the teams that they inherited. So Danny Aange was not brought in to be sentimental about Rudy and Donovan figuring it out together. And Mark Lorry and Arod and Tim Conley are not like maybe satisfied with what they saw from Minnesota. They want to push harder and push farther than that. And so they got Carl Towns a bodyguard.

And I think in the short term, they'll probably be, if I had to guess, I think that they will be a upper half of the Western Conference playoff team. That's, that's like my, like, you know, not, not, it's like a way too early projection without knowing where Kevin Durant's going. Yeah, they run far less risk, I think, than the Hawks do of flaming out and becoming really bad somehow. Like, just, you have insurance with Anthony Edwards, too. Like, if, if Gobert Edwards and Kat, something happens, like, okay, tough. Like, that's, what are you going to do about it? But the other thing to me is just like, when you consider how young Edwards is and how young J.D. McDaniels is,

I'm kind of like, well, don't you want to take one more shot at the draft, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, that totally makes sense. And it's not like Tim Conley has, Tim Connolly has shown that he's good at drafting from the middle of the first round. You know, like he's gotten some pretty good players out of there for Denver the last couple of years. And also, you know, to his credit, maybe that's part of the reason he's not worried about it as well. Like maybe he thinks that he can find guys in the second round.

Like that's one thing with the Nuggets is that that team had to be very resourceful, right? So they had to find guys kind of out of nowhere, right? And I think that they were, they were really creative drafting team. Like one of the things that I remember from like, I went there a couple years ago, but they just like to go for guys that like might not be like conventionally athletic sometimes, right? And that's something I think that we now all understand, especially like in a in a post-Lucah, post-Yokish world. But they were kind of early on early on that, right? And they tried Bull-Bull.

And like he's tried putting, he's had the same problem before. Like the same problem he has with Kat is a problem that he has with Yokish. Like you have a generationally talented offensive player who makes everybody around him better. Also just like can't defend at all. Right. And I also think like, you know, Kat's, Kat had some good rim protection moments in the playoffs. as well. Like he's not quite, he's more athletic than Yokic as well.

I don't think he's like doomed to be a perennial disaster on that end. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I'm really curious about like this team on the floor when we get to see that. Like it's going to be, it's going to be fascinating just like how you build around a guy like cat and, you know, from the lens of somebody who tried.

Is cat now going to turn into Chris Bosch because Anthony Edwards is Dwayne Wade? You know what I mean? Like, is there kind of an element here where we're turning, like, Kat into maybe a little bit more of a complimentary score? Not that Gobert is going to somehow take on, like, any of this offensive burden. Like, he's a really good offensive player, I think, you know, in some ways underrated. But, like, I think that ultimately, like, he's known for his defense, obviously. But I almost wonder whether bringing in Gobert and, like, kind of setting the lineup this way is a step towards Anthony Edwards as the primary scoring option as, like,

the sort of maybe, maybe like kind of like that first, that first option going down the floor. Yeah, maybe. I mean, Kat's definitely going to have to change his game, right? Like, there's just not going to be that much room for him to operate in. I have thoughts on, like, but we can, we can do that a different day. Yeah, we'll save it for the, for the Minnesota Chronicles. So anyway, the trade package that went back for Gobert, do you think that we're in an era now where you can have a market setting,

thing and that Brooklyn can say look the four picks at least you know that you were you exchanged for for Rudy Gober like that's the starting asking point for Durant and we also want a young all-star back in in return or are we in to borrow the phrase from the wire a yesterday's price is not today's price zone and every deal is its own little Disneyland of of like psychological, economic, political, like chess pieces that get moved around. And so there, you know, you can have something where it's like whether it's the Kauai deal,

which felt like you didn't really get much in return for a guy who wanted out like Kauai Leonard did with the spurs to the raptors. Or you get like huge halls. Like, you know, maybe you could go back and say what now in retrospect, what Houston got for James Hardin sending him to Brooklyn. It's kind of like.

Anthony Davis and Ingram is Anthony Davis The Anthony Davis trade obviously is a huge, huge franchise chasing hall, franchise saving hall and maybe even for New Orleans. So what do you think about what it means for Durant and what it means for what Brooklyn's going to ask for him?

Yeah, so apparently in talks with Annette's the wolves were asked for basically Carl Anthony Towns or Anthony Edwards and that was kind of a deal breaker and that is what sent them to go bare. I think it's somewhere in the middle of what you said

because I think you're going to see four first-round picks and three pick swaps probably just like tacked onto the end of every single deal that we see at this point. But at the same time, like, the market isn't awesome right now. And a lot of that is because of that designated rookie extension thing that we were talking about earlier. Basically, you can't have two of those guys,

two guys signed to that extension that you traded for. And the Nets traded for Ben Simmons, who's on that contract. It's kind of like, it's kind of a cruel irony. Because if they never traded Hardin for Simmons, like there's a bunch of guys

that'd be able to pursue right now. Like Bamat at Bio, Deerrin Fox, Shee Gilders Alexander, Donovan Mitchell, Michael Porter Jr., Deerius Garland, Zion Williamson,

John Morat. And not to say all those, I didn't mention all the guys that are on those contracts. Booker is on one of those deals. And Booker is also a guy that they presumably wanted. Kat is also now not getable on that since he's also signed his Supermax too. So there's some guys on that list that you just aren't going to get anyways.

But like when I think about what I'd want if I was a Nets, I would want that hall of picks. And I would want like a bona fide guaranteed like this guy is a star type of player coming back. Like I would want both. And right now there's not a lot of the, the star available, right? Like, that's kind of, that's kind of the issue. So I don't know.

Yeah, and then you get into like the kind of weird nether regions of like, what's KD going to accept? Because I guess you could theoretically do, wait, so you could they, could you do KD even for SGA? So you couldn't, right? No, you can't do that. There's a lot of guys that just takes out.

So I guess you could, could you do like KD for Chet, Dort, and like 10 picks? I don't know if you can trade Dort right now, but... Right. Okay, God, see, this is hard. It is, and also, like, the max amount of picks is seven. I mean, it's really forward pick swaps. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, like, the most picks that Presti could put in a deal,

and it's like, even so, would Kevin Durant be like, I'm not going back to, well, blah, blah, you know, of course he probably... Yeah. Well, that's the other end of this that, like... And we should get to a little bit later, too, is like, well, who's going to have the appetite for this and who isn't, right? Right. But yeah, it just, I don't see, I don't see an awesome market right now. And this morning, the, the odds shifted. The odds are going to shift over and over again. But right now, it's basically the suns are minus 200 to get Durant plus 700. He stays in the nets. And the Raptors are plus 750. So essentially, it's like he's going to the nets or he's probably staying. And it's sorry, he's going to the suns or he's probably staying. And it looks like he's probably going to the suns. They pretty much are the only team that can put together the offer that Katie wants,

the promise that he would also want to stay there. Right. And like, you know, like send back, they could send back Aiton, McHale Bridges and Cam Johnson and all the picks. So they can do that even though McHale Bridges signed an extension? Yeah. Because it wasn't the max, right? Well, it was, it'll kick in this year too. So it just won't be.

But he also, he didn't sign like a designated rookie max. Like this applies basically to, I mean, unfortunately for the Nets, it applies to pretty much to the best of the best young talent. So the Sons are pretty much the only team that could put together a package that's really good. And also not lose so much that they won't be a championship contender. Also have, you know, promise that Katie would want to be back there. So that's kind of it.

Like honestly, if I'm the Sons at this point, point. I'm kind of saying like, I don't if we're giving you, Cam Johnson, like, if this goes down today, right, this is going to shift over and over again, right? At this point, if I'm the Sons, I'm like, man, I don't know. Like, who else? Who do you got here? Because, like, today, Sam Amick reported that KD only wants to play with, he wants to, if he goes to,

he wants to, he wants BAM out of bio, Lowry and Jimmy Baller Sting. So that basically means that you're, you know, you're putting together an offer around Tyler Hero. And the heat has, like, far less draft equity. Yeah, it is. it is it is Kate Vince was like I thought it was on the keeper list this is tough

that was a heat lifer so that's you know like even I mean I don't know even Haslam could be on the table for the heat they want to make it work and I don't know I don't know how much you like buy into

the idea of like they're only going to make the exact deal that Katie wants like we'll kind of have to see with all those things but a lot of saber rattling back and forth either way I mean the way it was initially

reported where it sounded like the Nets were working in conjunction with KD's reps to find an equitable solution to this situation for everybody made it sound slightly more amicable, I think, and maybe even in that case, like, the fact that the Nets are still the second favorites to retain his services here is notable, I guess. I thought that obviously when the D'Andre Aiton odds to the Nets became like a huge story a couple of days ago, that was the first sort of volley in this and this whole account. And I thought that that was

I, annoyingly so, like I find that those things are definitely pretty interesting predictors of future events and, you know, kind of predicted Brexit pretty accurately and maybe predicted the Kev exit from Brooklyn. I don't know what that would be. The Dexit. Like, he, like, he had, like, it was a, yeah, but it was a good signal that that might happen. And it makes the most sense.

and at the same time I'm almost like disappointed because it's just like it's not that I really necessarily have any kind of investment in like the Sun's making another run with the team that they had assembled although I love the team that they assembled it's kind of more just like what does it mean for the state of signing a four or five year contract you know what I mean it's got it's kind of the most not egregious but pronounced example that you have of like well this doesn't really mean anything if you sign a guy like Kevin Durant for four years and think you can just like go to at night, not worrying about this.

And maybe some of that is like the Kyrie devil on the shoulder thing. Maybe some of it is just Durant was always going to kind of be like this way and was always just going to be like, you can sign me to four years or I can keep doing one and one and one and one and one and we can keep it going for as long as it works. But obviously something got broken in that relationship. I wonder if we'll ever find out like what it was because I still, if it really is just Kyrie, this all seems really silly to me. Yeah, it seems like, I don't know, we don't really know, it seems like it is Kyrie.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know, man. Like, I love my friends. But there's a butt coming, right? Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, I don't get it. I just don't get it. It just seems like Kyrie is just kind of hitched his wagon

to Kevin's success on some way. But they're not going to play together again. We don't know that. That's why this is also fascinating, right? Like everything that you're saying too about the four years and how this is like the most, you know, egregious version of a player kind of just saying, well, yeah, like when contract doesn't really matter, I want out.

We'll see, right? Like, if we could get the perfect scenario with the Sons where it just happens to be the combination of best offer and, you know, KD is happy too. But if it's not that, then I'm going to be interested to see if he actually gets to go where he wants to go. Yeah. Because we don't really know that for sure.

Like, they just decided right now that they weren't going to, you know, basically, you know, count out of Kyrie's demands just like, you know, a week ago. And maybe they're facing the consequences of that right now. But I wouldn't necessarily say that this is going to be a situation where he gets everything that he wants. Like, we're just, I don't know, we're not quite there yet. There's a scene, do you ever see that movie, Margin Call?

No. Okay, so it's this, it's this movie about the 2008 stock market crash, about the subprime mortgage crash. And it's this set in this investment bank over the course of one night, where they realize essentially that the market is going to collapse because of them and that they're holding way more debt than the market cap of the company itself at this brokerage firm, this investment firm or whatever. And there's a scene where one of the bankers says to Jeremy Irons, who runs the whole entire firm, Jeremy Irons has said, like, dump our

holdings, like, just dump all this, like, toxic debt back into the market, sell at, like, pennies on the dollar. And the guy who's told this dude, the guy's like, if you do this, you will kill the market. And he's just like, do you understand what I'm saying? And then Jeremy Irons is like, do you? And it just kind of reminds me, that whole scene was playing in my head when I was reading about Kevin Durant because I'm like, this is going to come back up during CBA negotiations. Like, I just can't really believe that the prices that people pay for NBA franchises will also come.

Inside the price tag will also be the expected volatility of all MBA contracts, not really meaning anything. Do you know what I mean? Like, this will come back up. And the thing it tests is, I'm sure Robert Sarver would not appreciate it if Kevin Booker did this to him, but we'll happily take Kevin Durant off of Joe's size hands. You know what I mean? So where does the actual foot come down? That's the thing I'm really curious about. Because I just think whether or not I agree with it or not, the foot always comes down. do you think there could be a version of events where because this was a big market getting screwed there just isn't that same level of outrage

and there just isn't the same sort of like creation of a you know just a group of teams that you know are lobbying for just the curtailing of player power I don't even know if it's player power as much as it it just seems like guys are going to start asking what they're buying it would occur to me that that would happen at the price point that they're buying it at. If the value of these franchises, now maybe it's just like,

you get to be a part of the NBA and all NBA teams, whether it's Houston or Brooklyn or Houston or from the lower to the higher end in terms of like what's happening with the franchise at any given point are essentially these like money printing machines. I totally get that.

And you can just see that the more money you spend typically the better chances you have but I do wonder whether there's going to be some sort of long-term ramifications from something like this happening. Now, I'm sure it'll come out eventually what KD did and didn't want about what happened here and maybe he felt like certain promises were made to him

that were then broken for whatever reason. It certainly seems like Brooklyn started out at one place with their idea of building San Antonio East and then decided to blow that up at the opportunity to get Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant and bring in Steve Nash to coach them because they didn't like Kenny Ackinson and now it seems like the

Steve Nash relationship has fallen apart. They could just keep bringing in new new coaches, I guess, but they've decided that they don't want to go along with this. I mean, the Joe Varden piece in the athletic about Joe Syc seemed pretty well-sourced in terms of like where the sort of management of that franchise

is at psychologically with this whole scenario, which seems like they're ready to just punch out and they'd rather be a 40-win team that they were proud of than like whatever this circus is. So I guess I just like, I'm wondering about what the long-term ramifications are of the Durant trade request. I think we're seeing it in like the complete lack of Kyrie market. And then what also would happen to the KD market if Kyrie was also completely attached to him too, right?

Yeah, I think I think there's something very real about that. Like, you know, I think there's a reflection happening on like what kind of team that you actually do want to build and how you would enjoy winning. And like on some level, I think there's some billionaires that would see. the level of volatility in the NBA and get really excited about it, right? Yeah. But I think I would also just get kind of... Yeah, it's not like I think that these people made their money

like through like a savings account. Like I'm sure that they took advantage of market inefficiencies and... I completely agree with you. This is not like altruistic money coming out of nowhere and they're just like, gosh, I thought I was investing in Hoosiers and now it turns out that everybody's in it for themselves. You know, like...

I don't think they're that guy. Yeah, like guy tearing down real estate properties. Just just wants to build something, you know? Just just wants to build something homegrown. But yeah, it's, I think it's a shift on like just quality of life factors. I think people overall are just kind of considering more now. I think we're kind of coming out of a post-pandemic world where just there's been a mindset shift in terms of work. for people universally.

So it's not surprising that the NBA is also kind of going through it. How much of a headache do I really want to go through for the sake of winning this thing? Like winning as a concept has kind of also become sullied a little bit too, right? Like the idea that you can be at the top of your craft and something,

but it's not necessarily going to solve everything else is something that I think people actually kind of believe before they have to go through the thing of it happening now. I totally, I totally agree. agree with that. But, like, why do you care about the NBA? Like, do you care about the NBA because of what we're talking about today

or because of Steph Curry bursting into tears at the end of Game 6 against Boston? And it doesn't have to be on either or. It can be both. But, like, I still... That's the latter is still, like, the thing that makes me interested in the sport. Me too. Me too. And not to have, like, a conversation about KD and rings mattering, but that's also why the rings feel like they matter less.

Definitely looming over this. That's why it's like we saw how hard it looked for Curry. We saw how hard it looked for even a guy like Jimmy Butler not winning a championship. Like I think Jimmy Butler got more fans from losing the finals and Kevin Durant got from winning the finals. Like there's a psychological aspect to all of this where, you know, the search for a team, a super team that's potentially going to be. make things easier kind of cuts against

what people want to see from you. I think what KD was able to do in the 2020 playoffs and like game seven be completely just exhausted and depleted got him probably a higher Q score than winning the finals. You're right. You're right. You're right. I mean, I think that also like the reason

why I thought that was cool or just to speak for myself was I think winning should be hard. And I think that like it's also really heartwarming and amazing to see frankly, like those three Warriors core members who

just went through hell on like a variety of different levels for obviously the world's smallest violin plays for the Golden State Warriors at this point. But Clay coming back from injury, Stefan Dremont sticking through it after like two pretty unremarkable to

downright bad years and to get all the way to where they got to is pretty astonishing. and sometimes it might take like a couple of years to get there. And I don't think that Kevin Durant is wrong for wanting to play somewhere else or not see out his time in Brooklyn. He very well may have signed that contract on the understanding that Kyrie was next and was going to get re-uped for the same amount of time as him and that they were, as they always have been a package deal. And that's not like, it's not a crime for him to want to change his mind either if he decided like this is not working out for. for me. This is not the right spot for me. But I just, I just kind of like, I hope it's not a

sign of things to come where it just none of it means anything. And it's all like the point is the churn and the point is the kind of transactional movement and not like the moment that we get at the end of the NBA season that we just saw. Those to me feel like two different seasons almost. And I'm definitely in it way more for the actual games. And it's almost like we're watching those two things play out. And they don't even, sometimes it feels like they don't even exist in a way that they impact the other. Like over the last, you know, since 2019, when the, when the nets were constructed, the Raptors

won the finals and they beat the Warriors. And then it was the Lakers and the Heat and then the Bucks and the Suns. Aside from the Lakers, Bobbo title, and obviously this year was the Celtics and Warriors, right? Like, these were pretty reasonably homegrown teams. Yeah. Or some combination of, you know, you built your own culture. And then, like, for the rappers, they bought in a guy like Kauai Lanner for that one season. And I think maybe teams are seeing that too, right?

And maybe that's going to make people a little bit hesitant to completely go for, go for broke for Katie. We don't really know. again, that's why what's fascinating. These are all kind of questions, right? Like, I don't really know what the answer is to any of them. Like, it could just maybe, maybe tomorrow Memphis trades Jaron Jackson, Desmond Bain, and Brandon Clark and like a bunch of picks for, for, for, for, for Katie and like all that talk about like building something from

from the ground up there. Just like kind of just doesn't really, you know, it turns out that that wasn't really as important, right? I don't see that happening particularly in Memphis, but, you know, a team like New Orleans also has something to. consider in that situation too. And to me, like, that's one of the more fascinating things about

this. The more that I think about this, the more that I just feel like I don't know how much I'm mortgaging my actual future for four years, potentially four years of Kevin Durant. You don't

really know if he's going to stay. This goes for the teams that aren't on his list. This goes for all the sons, the non-sons, non- he options essentially. But even I guess if you're those teams, you've got to worry about it too. But he's 33 years old and he's going to be 37 at the end of that contract. And he's played 90 regular season games in the last three years.

I think that there's an entirely other conversation to have about whether or not, like what it takes to get Kevin Durant means you're actually not a contender. I'm sure you're a playoff team. I'm sure if the right chips fall, like you find yourself where the Brooklyn Dets found themselves two seasons ago against Milwaukee. You know what I mean? Like, we're making a run at it. But I gotta be honest,

like, and it really pains me deeply to say this. Is anybody who's going to trade for Kevin Durant going to be in this, like, are they as good as Boston got by adding Brogden and Gallo?

And I don't mean that in like a galaxy brainway. I'm literally saying like, Boston went out and got a ball handler and another shooter. Like, that's exactly what they need. Right. And meanwhile, it's like, you're talking about trading for Kevin Durant. I'm sure Booker, Chris Paul, and Kevin Durant would be an astonishing trio on the floor. But you're in the exact same situation in some ways that Brooklyn was in.

Where you're like, it's these three guys. And if Chris Paul tears a hamstring or Kevin Durant gets hurt or this doesn't work out, or Robert Sarver like becomes a huge distraction, which he already is, that anything could happen. Like, and Phoenix could have just as many problems as Brooklyn has now. That's why, by the way, we didn't mention this when you were talking about the Sons. You want those picks. You want those draft picks if you're the Nets. Like, the Sun's draft picks are kind of the most combustible.

Robert Sauer would probably sell MD anyway. He doesn't care. Can you see the price on first one pick these days? Hell no. Before we get out of here, are there any other trade, any other free agency deals or trades that you wanted to share some thoughts on? Let's do a little bit on the Raptors and Katie before we get out of here. Oh, yeah, sure.

Yeah. So the big question in Raptorland right now is revolves around Scotty Barnes and whether you would put him in a deal for Kevin Durant. And when this first happened, me and KOC and Logan and wasn't a couple other people did a Spotify green room live for about three hours, just trying to suss out every option. And at the time, I was just thinking Scotty Barnes, it hurts. And any KD trade is going to hurt. But if it's four years of KD, I don't know how you don't do it. And over the last few days,

like kind of marinated on it. And I think I'm at the opposite end of this now. Then you don't do it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's been really interesting to see like the mentality shift in Raptors fans as well since like since the Kauai year and they won a championship. Because when they first traded for Kauai,

like that city was like, I can't believe we just let Demar Derozen. and the only star that's ever wanted to play with us go for a rental of Kauai Leonard who doesn't even want to be here. And he's probably not going to be in a suit up. Oh my God. Oh, I thought it was like bad. Oh.

No. The vibes were, well, okay, so there's a piece of it was genuine heartbreak, right? Um, just because of the relationship that DeMara has with the city. Like, I think the city felt like, you know, you just traded this guy for somebody who doesn't want to be a raptor. But that also had like, the raptors are basically like this team and like the city of Toronto is a sport, like, as a basketball city especially, it was basically just like, it was like a girl I didn't realize she, like, she had a glow up yet.

You know? Yeah, I was like, I don't know. I'm never going to do better than tomorrow. Just like I can't, like, you can't let him go, right? Then all of a sudden, Kauai shows up and, you know, like Toronto's cool. And I think players know what's cool. And it's gotten cooler in the last like, you know, five years. And there's a lot of respect for the organization.

And like that season in a way, like obviously, it's a thing. there's a championship aspect of it that's going to always be like the most amazing thing. But that season was also basically just like this audition that the Raptors were doing for the NBA mainstream. And everybody came away impressed. And I just think they have like a different reputation now. And I think the fans have a different sense of what's possible now. Like they've won a championship. So like they're like, I think there's more of a tendency to say, yeah, let's let's take this risk on Kevin Durant. Even though like his like, you know, formative experience with us is tearing his Achilles and watching fans cheer.

Like he might not necessarily be a fan right now, but we can turn him. Maybe we can turn him. And there's four years and like we've already got the, the bedrock for a contender going on here. And I don't know. It's really easy to get swept up in that. And it's really, it's good. It's the kind of the way you want to be thinking more than the other way, right?

But also at the same time, like KD. So now you're in, you wouldn't do, you wouldn't put Scotty. I wouldn't. It's like the centerpiece of a... See, that's interesting. I wonder whether or not that has something to do with the current makeup

of the Raptors though, which I think does have like youth revolution, like young players that we've all drafted that were like are kind of these plug in place with Army Knife dudes

and you can't tell what position anybody plays, but they're ours. And like we love them. You know, like that there is that element to it. I also just watched a 2K simulation

on YouTube of the Hawks like next 10 years with Tray Young and Deonti Murray. That part doesn't go well and the Spurs winning championship. Do you need some TV show recommendations? Where can I possibly get those?

It's a great moment for TV right now. There's like some amazing shows on right now. You don't have to watch. I don't know why I'm giving you our top. I just watched like 47 course vlogs for the golf course I just played at. Okay, but that's so much more useful than what I did. honestly. But I watch that.

Because I don't feel the way you're talking about Scotty Barnes. I don't feel that way about like Tyrese Max. Here are his numbers for the 24-25 season. Okay. We've got... Wait, whose numbers? Scotty Barnes in the simulation. And this is in this YouTube simulation of the Hawks.

Yeah. Well, he's just happened. Like, you know, the whole league is part of these simulations, right? Of course. We're all part of a simulation, obviously. So this is more of like a simulation within the simulation. Yeah. 26 points per game.

13.7 repounds. Is our podcast in this simulation? Do we make it? You know, I didn't see us. Okay. I didn't see us. It's tough. Yeah.

You know what? I don't know how much I believe in the simulation anymore. But 7.9 assists. Two steals, two blocks, only three turnovers. And he's shooting 37% from three. Like, he's doing it all. He's doing it all. But like, you've convinced me.

Yeah, you're here. Well, Scotty Barnes is a player who actually has, like, he could be the headliner on a championship team one day. And that's far more, like, I guess the question becomes, like, do you get more shots at it with this team, with a player like Barnes turning into a star and getting like the 10 years of, like, really great play that that brings you, right? versus maybe four years of Kevin Durant

and we don't really know how he's going to feel about being here and he's not Kauai Leonard. Like, you know, Kauai was like kind of a robot, robot automaton who kind of got there and was like, I guess I'm here. And then slowly saw that this team could actually be something real and turned on the superstar Jets, right? Like, I don't know that that's the way that Kevin Durant

would approach a situation that he was unhappy with, right? And I also just wonder, one of the things that was really special about that Raptors team was that it was the first championship. And even though Kauai was new, but everything else is kind of a slow build of like just, you know, watching Kyle Lowry as like shed pounds and become a better playmaker and just grow up and all that stuff. Like you had all those elements of that team as well. And it was the first championship. And I just don't know if like a second mercenary championship would necessarily have. hit the same for Raptors fans. Interesting. You know? I just kind of wonder how

it would feel the second time. Especially now there's expectations of greatness where this was once a franchise. It was like you couldn't imagine them winning a championship. Like we've come, they've come so far that I just wonder if like this is now going to be the way that they want to do things. And they have the star

that you can build the rest of your future around and he's their type. And I don't know. It just looks good. It looks good. And I was thinking about how like even in the DeMarc's, trade for Kauai. And obviously, granted, it was less years. The rappers still then weren't willing to trade their future.

They were willing to trade their present. They traded Damar and Yac and a first round pick. They weren't willing to put OG in that deal. Who was just a second year player at the time? They weren't willing to put Siakum, who was like a, like coming off of his second year going up and down from the G league and kind of having a cool spin move. But we don't really know what else is going on with this guy. It was all just arms and limbs.

potential, but it wasn't like, it wasn't, it was, definitely wasn't what Scotty Barnes showed in his rookie year. It wasn't on that level. So I just kind of wonder if the Raptors would even do it. Well, somehow we've arrived at this place where Kevin Durant is seemingly available for a trade, but the only place that would really want to trade for him and can trade for him is the place that he wants to go. And for that, we have you and the Scotty Barnes hive to think. I would do Pascal and OG. I mean So you would do it if you could keep Scotty Bards

Yeah Yeah Yeah because it's kind of worth It's worth the risk of the guys that you kind of know what they are Do you think Pascal and OG is a better deal than D'Andre and Mikhail? I think Pascal's the best player in that deal But Pascal's also older than Aiden I think the thing where it falls apart for the Raptors

is just that those like the Raptors picks are not going to be as valuable or is potentially valuable as as the Nets picks. Like that's, they've never really tanked. And I just don't think that's how they like roll or do things. So that probably won't happen

unless there's like a post-Messai world there. Yeah. I don't know. I do wonder though, next season is going to be weird with the Victor stuff because I do think that people, teams are going to do some funky stuff

in the second half of the season. He really is such a raptor. See? Yeah. you've already predicted them this side tank shop we should wrap it up there because we were doing this

on a Saturday to just make sure we caught any other news I'm glad we got the Zion stuff we talked about Rudy we talked about KD extensively we know Scotty Barnes is untouchable now Sir thank you so much for joining me thanks to Devin for producing us today on a Saturday

Bill and Ryan will be back tomorrow night and we'll have a blanket of NBA shows and mismatches and we're solo pods to keep you covered next week as we head into Summer League we'll see where this Kevin Durant said. It could also just be a...

This could take a while. You know, like it could happen in the next 24 hours. It could happen in the next 24 weeks. I really don't know. So we'll keep our eye on it and you'll hear it here first. Thanks, sir.

Thanks, Chris.