The Ringer NBA Show - Did the Mavericks Make Another Mistake? Plus, No Crown for the Kings. | Real Ones

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

Logan and Howard mf’in Beck are joined by Sam Amick of The Athletic to discuss the Mavericks' recent decisions and the Kings' continuing spiral. Anthony Davis returned for the Mavericks' game against the Nets Monday night in Brooklyn, but should they have just kept him out due to the plethora of other injuries on the team and their standing in the West (3:10)? The Kings are another team clawing for a play-in spot, but the organization has been in disarray for a long time. What steps can they take to finally right the ship (15:46)? Plus, the latest on the MVP race (36:52) and the mailbag (54:01)! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hit the mailbag! [e-mail] Hosts: Logan Murdock and Howard Beck Guest: Sam Amick Producer/Audio: Clifford Augustin Video Producer: Victoria Valencia Social: Keith Fujimoto Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's popping. Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Howard back there. One of our faves is in the building. Also a bitter rival of Howard going all the way back to college. Sam Amick is here. Sam, would you like to talk about your, for briefly for 30 seconds about, you know, this rivalry that's going on between you and Howard today. What's what the hell is going on right now? I mean, first of all, Logan, let's not pretend we were in college at the same time. Howard's way older than me. Yeah, yes. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yes. I mean, I think he was an original Aggie. He built the school.

Out there. Yes, we are. Sack State, UC Davis, rivals the rivalry that 98% of the country knows nothing about. And then Mr. Howard will tell you, Cosby Classic, the rivalry that he claims the Aggies don't care about nearly as much. as us hornets do. They got the best of us in football for most of the history, although not when I was there in the late 90s. But yes, I had to come on with you, Logan, because you're my guy, and I just have the stomach being on here also with an Aggie, but I'll try to make it through. I would just like to note that, well, Abick came on the call and everything was all good.

and then out of nowhere on the Riverside nameplate that no one else is ever going to see. Howard puts Howard go Aggies Beck into his name tag for what exactly? We were given Sam shit because his actually says Sam Amick, the athletic, and he's wearing his athletic sweatshirt. So he's like over representing here. And then it just occurred to me that I could mess with my name presentation on the platform just just for fun. So I had to, you know, got to represent. Go Ags. Okay.

Okay. All right. Go Aux. Shout out. Stingers up, baby. We're not going to dive in on this. It's not what the pod's about, but the Hornets did hire a men's basketball coach this week. King's great.

Mike Bibi. See, Howard, we're trying to follow the Aggie profile. Jim Les, former King, you know, a long time UC Davis men's basketball coach. Apparently they decided to yet again just try to, you know, steal from your aggy greatness and see if it works. Okay, now we're just losing listeners as we speak. Yes, all right, sorry, get off. We got to turn this thing around.

This is crazy. Let's talk about, we're going to talk about the Mavericks, the Kings, Kings, Kings, Kings, Kings, Kings, Kings? It's a bunch of Zs. Okay, okay. Amick is notably silent during that exchange, which is hilarious. I'm not the judge and jury on that one. Maybe getting some MVP talking that we have some questions from the mailbag that all three of us are going to answer. But let's start with the Mavericks right now.

I feel like bullying whenever we bring up the Mavericks and whenever they're on the docket. But Anthony Davis is back. For what I don't know, and I guess we're going to have a thought exercise today about why he is back in the lineup. and what that necessarily means for the Mavericks and their playoff hopes, but they do also have a pick that they could have in the lottery to help improve their roster. Howard, you were at the game last night. What the hell is going on with the Mavericks at this point? I feel like we ask this at least every two weeks in some capacity,

based on like a comment or a move. And now it is because an All-Star is coming back into the lineup. What are they doing? What's going on? to be clear, I was at the pregame of Nets Mavericks. I was not actually at the game. I left before tip-off. The whole Sam Amick special there.

There you go. No, no, hold on. Before I, I don't want to jump in, Howard. I'm on this podcast with like the two preeminent pre-tip-off exiters in NBA media. I learned this from Zach Lowe back in the day. Yes, yes. I was going to say, Zach, for sure. And I have not had the willpower to be.

do it. But I left last night's King Celtics game in the third quarter. You'd be proud of me. So I'm getting there. But yeah, you guys are well known for your pre-tip-off departures. I mean, you know, it's about, you know, making the rounds, shaking hands, kissing babies, that kind of thing. And then, you know, can come home, get on the

couch and, you know, flip through and see if there are better games on. I am puzzled by Anthony Davis's return. Like, I get it. For his purposes, he wants to show what he capable of and players want to play, right? Weeks left in a lost season, players still usually

want to play. And I think when you've got the reputation that Anthony Davis does of being constantly hurt, I think reminding people of what you're capable of or maybe reminding Mavs fans or giving Mavs fans a glimpse of like, hey man, we're going to be okay. I know you're all still morning Luca, but I'm here and I can do some things. Like, you could see that when he made his debut for all of a quarter or a half or whatever it was, you know, right after the train. He wants to show what he's worth. I get that. But as an organization, this is a mistake.

I'm sorry, you don't allow Anthony Davis to come back, whether it was his idea, the organization's idea, whoever's idea. It's a bad idea. Because don't risk him getting hurt further. He's fragile enough as it is. Don't risk adding more wins that you don't need right now when you actually should just be going for lottery position. I know we all hate tanking, but we all also agree that if you're an organization in a position to keep your or to enhance your pick, you do it. So there's no real gain and everything to lose by having Anthony Davis play down the stretch here.

So, yeah, I don't get it. It made no sense to me. Amick. The Mavericks are. Okay. All right. Now, Sam finally figured out how to do the Riverside, ladies and gentlemen. And now he has his Sam stingers up, Amick tag on his name.

That was just for us. You didn't have to go back. No, I felt like I had to go with the Go Aggies part for Beck. I have to just call you out too. Jesus, this is. I'm going to pause for a second. I'm going to go grab my UC Davis baseball cap. I'll be right back.

Hold on. We'll just escalate for the next hour. Right. Jeez, you're just getting me off course. This is just so distracting. You guys are just ridiculous. The Mavs, AD, should he be playing? Should he be playing Sam Amick?

I mean, he's Anthony Davis. And so I don't think, I mean, yeah, I get it. pragmatically, intellectually, why you wouldn't want him to play for draft purposes, for long-term goal purposes. But that wasn't the nature of the trade to get rid of Luca to begin with. It was a shorter runway. You knew you were bringing a guy to town who Nico Harrison thought was getting them closer to a championship than the guy that they sent.

out. And so with that spirit in mind, I just think, you know, if AD is ready to play, you got to let him play. I get it. And again, I think it's like you can't split the baby if that makes sense. Like you went down this road with this culture, with this mentality. If AD wants to finish this season, seeing where he's at and seeing what it ends up meaning, if anything, then I think you got to go down that road. What does their offseason look like right now? Is there any reprieve because they have Kyrie who has just gotten injured. They have Anthony Davis

who seems hopefully as healthy knock on wood for the foreseeable future. I mean, although that is not a guarantee. Where can they go to at least make this salvageable for next season? Is it the vibe check

of what we're just seeing right now? We have Anthony Davis in the lineup where we learn how to win and we're going to figure it out maybe we get into the playing. We have some level of happiness because we did that. Like, where are the Mavericks going right now, Sam? What is the immediate future of the Mavericks based on what we've seen over the last two weeks? I mean, honestly, it's brutal. I, you know, for a very, very brief minute when that trade went down, I forget who they played. Remember they had that three quarters of magic, you know,

in the debut game when you had AD and Kyrie and Clay out there and the rest of the crew, and they looked really, really dangerous. You know, then AD has the adductor injury. Obviously, Kyrie goes down after that. So it's like, man, you go from that window, which was so fleeting to this offseason where everybody's going to be older. I mean, you know, I wrote at the trade deadline that, you know, Nico with his Nike background, there's a lot of chatter around the league that he wants to keep going down this road.

of kind of known commodities from his past and pursue, you know, Kevin Durant along with a lot of other teams this summer where it's kind of like the, you know, get the old Nike gang back together. But it just seems like such a dicey proposition. A, you don't know if you can get KD. B, if you do, you're going to be giving up a fair amount of that depth that helped you get to the finals last year. C, just as a quick commentary, it's like, you know, I wrote like a lot of other people,

people, you know, during that finals run, when they came together post-trade deadline and Luca and Kyrie were such a good fit and, you know, Gafford and Lively, all those guys. Like, it was so impressive to see the Mavs and Nico get this version of Kyrie out of Kyrie. And not only that, he was elevating Luca, right? And it's just like, my God, I know I'm a broken record like the rest of the world on this. Like, it continues to just absolutely astonished me that they kind of jump the shark to the next level, which is like, oh, no, our belief in Kyrie is on such a high level that we're going to make him the guy along with AD, and, you know, and, you know, not the guy who's augmenting, not the guy who's

the veteran voice who's helping Luca understand maybe that his habits need to improve or that the culture needs to be in this kind of a place. But, you know, but we're going to bump that young 25-year-old superstar out and go even farther down the Kairu Road with a guy in AD who he's got a lot of history with. It's just crazy. So yeah, I mean, their future, they're going to take some swings this summer and hope that, you know, these low odds end up panning out somehow. The thing that like even like pursuing KD or your old guys are getting the band back together, most of those guys that Nico worked with at Nike are like approaching their mid-30s at this point, right? And you had a relatively young roster when last year with Luca, you had the 25-year-old superstar,

you pair him with 20-somethings. And now this, a year later, it's just, it's probably going to be one of the oldest rosters in the league if you make the moves that you want to make. I don't get Howard how in the, and maybe this is the ego of the NBA or maybe. maybe this is just what we see, but just the doubling down on bad decisions for the sake of trying to make yourself feel better from, it seems like, Nico Harrison's perspective, right? Like, I don't know where this ends because of the new ownership and because of their seemingly lack of understanding of the modern game or the game in general. But how far does this go, right?

Because it just seems like, what if he trades? what if he trades so many picks, right? Let's just say Kevin Durant, right? What if he trades like the next few years of the drafts to get KD? Then what? Like, where does this end with this type of organization, organizational structure? I think the way that their draft picks are encumbered, I don't think they even have the ability to pull that off anyway.

But yeah, that would be another catastrophic doubling, tripling down on what they're doing. If you just added yet another guy in his twilight who, you know, never know what day he might get hurt again, too. I don't, I don't, I don't, Duran's going to end up somewhere else, obviously, but I don't think it's Dallas. I don't think they have the means to pull that off. I am curious what they can pull off, though,

because just to play along for a moment with the idea that Anthony Davis and an eventual Kyrie after he comes back from his ACL, that that's somehow the outline, the basis of a high-tier playoff team, I don't believe that, but okay. You know, is it Derek lively PJ Washington? Daniel Gafford, Clay Thompson, Spencer Dinwiddie. That group as structured, if they're healthy on day one next season, that's a good team.

It's a team with a lot of risk with your two stars in terms of their health. And with Kyrie not available until deep into the season, if at all next season, we don't know. But, okay, there's the outline of something. But I don't think it's enough. it's not enough to be better than Oklahoma or probably Denver or, you know, who knows next season, where the Lakers and Warriors and Grizzlies and Rockets, the rest of them will be. But like, the Mavericks are fighting an uphill battle because as we've discussed on this pod before, they decided to base themselves on two stars in their early to mid-30s who both

have injury histories, who are both better off as secondary stars, not primary stars. So they're already in the whole, which leads me to this. this. Don't double or triple down. Pull the plug. Like, I know this isn't going to happen. It's the most unrealistic thing I could possibly say because it's not going to happen. But what they should do is next season's toast because Kyrie's out. AD still has value. Trade AD. See if Clay Thompson wants to go somewhere. Why is Clay want to, Clay went there to go play with Kyrie and Luca who were going to set him up for all these open shots. Now he's going into next season with like, who's creating shots?

for Clay or anybody next season to start the season with Kyrie out for months. Like, this thing's already toast. It's already over. And I know it's not going to happen. But I'd be trading out pieces. I wouldn't be trying to acquire and build it up because there's nothing to build on. I mean, I don't know. It's funny.

I referenced Clay and I just, I can't imagine just like a sadder person this season. That's laughing out of sympathy. Yeah. I just, I mean, I think. I think you've seen him, Amick, but like every time I see Sad Clay is just one of those, it's like the world is on his shoulders, man. I think I saw him during Igwadal's jersey retirement. And you could just see like the grass isn't always greener look as he was on his way to his boat to his Bay Area home. But it was just, you know, you don't like seeing that.

But it's going to be interesting to see what they do. They should, they should tear it down. They should do all of these things. But I just, I don't know where this goes. It's going to be very interesting to see where we're at. I think that's all I got. Because every time I talk about the Mavericks, it just feels so depressing. So let's, let's just move on to another depressing team.

The Kings, right? Kings, Kangs. How many Zs are on that Kings, Howard? Sam's the expert on this. I defer to his second one. Yeah, I tried to defer to Sam, but Sam's scary right now. Sam is, you know, he's got to live out there. Man, is Zach mad at me? I got to live here, man. Why is Zach mad at you now? What you do? What you do? Every time I just, Howard, every time I see this guy, well, one, someone's mad at him. But every time I see this guy, he is, he's just like, man, I don't know why the Kings, like, I don't know why Sachs mad at me. Like, I love this place. I don't, I don't get it. I just don't understand.

You need to stop that. Why are they mad at you right now? What's going on? No, I don't mean the team. I mean the, the, the. city. It is interesting. So quick background for anybody not familiar with my background. I've been here since 96. Those were the old SAC State days, you know, been around the King since 2004 covering the NBA. And it's what's unique about this latest King situation is that I feel like in my 20 years of being around them and countless times of reporting stuff about bad decisions that got made or revealing different types of dysfunction. The fan base, by and large, has appreciated, this is my interpretation of it, like having

someone around who is willing to be a bit of a truth teller, so they at least really know what's going on. I think we've reached the point with this fan base, maybe because they enjoyed the beam team so much and they had a little taste of the playoff drought coming to an end and now it's kind of going back the other way. this one, the fan base is a little bit like, no, you know what, I'm good with my head in the sand. And I don't want to know all this stuff. Like, you know, let's just say, you know, let's go Zach Levine and DeMarrozen and play in success. They kind of just are done and I don't blame them.

But, you know, we obviously, with Anthony Slater a couple weeks ago, reported at length on kind of the behind-the-scenes stuff on how they lost Aaron Fox and the Mike Brown firing. and we joke about Cangs. I mean, you know, the definition to me of, you know, for any organization, like whatever your version of Cangs is, is just like an interruption of healthy process, meaning when you have, you know, ownership overriding front office, which was the case in the Mike Brown firing, when you have ownership, you know, listening to people outside the organization to solicit feedback and opinions about what you should and shouldn't be. do with your organization, that type of stuff that is certainly not unique to Sacramento. It did rear its head, you know, recently and then we got into it. So there's a fair amount of kings right now with, I think, a lot of uncertainty this summer for sure. You're saying it was a bad idea to have Jeremy Lamb taking over the front office. That was the craziest revelation, Sam, I've seen. I had no idea. Don't reveal, you know, obviously don't reveal sources here. But like,

when you got that information, like, what would What was your reaction when you got the information that Jeremy Lamb was giving giving basketball advice to Vivek Ronadieve? Like what was your like, were you like, oh shit or like, I mean, it wasn't. I mean, first of all, to be clear, it's one of those like informal things, right? No one's trying to say that, you know, that he was brought in in a formal capacity. You know, he was dating the daughter of the owner, Anjali Rondaeva. That was, they were very public.

TMZ even had a story where they announced their relationship a while back. on social media and then, you know, Jeremy would be at games. My defense to anybody who had been upset and there were some about that part of the story is like, listen, I'm in that building a lot. And as you guys know, in all of these NBA arenas, they have some version of what you will refer to as like power seats, right? Like where you know where the juice is. Well, Vivek Ranevay sits mid court. And for a long stretch of time leading up to the trade deadline, Jeremy was omnipresent. Now again, if anybody forgets, Jeremy, former lottery pick,

you know, I think 10 years in the league. Was that a James Hardy deal? Yeah, yeah. And even before that, the Kevin Martin deal. I forget where Kevin went, whatever. But like, G League for the Kings retires and then shows up

courtside all the time with kind of the King's power brokers. And more specifically, when they fired Mike Brown, he was on the trip with the Rana Divay family and Anjali in Cabo. So, I mean, it was like an episode out of one of Howard's favorite shows, Succession. I think you're a Succession guy, Howard. Oh, yeah. And like, like, you know, like firing the coach from Cabo is just like as just kind of like, you know, not reading the room and and boozy as it gets.

So what we wrote was that there were a lot of folks on the team and the organization who were just kind of looking around going, my God, like, is Jeremy Lamb going to run in this thing? But it's more about, all right, the questions of who is Vivek, Ronadie, the owner listening to. That is the concern. He has since, you know, Jeremy has since kind of faded. We have not seen him in weeks at games. So I think that element has changed. But, yeah, wild subplot for sure. My question, oh, go ahead, go Howard.

Go Aggies. I want to just, like, boil it down to this, Sam. like all of the palace intrigue stuff aside, which we just touched on, and it was a great piece by Ewan Slater. I want to just like bring it back to like just the basic premise of the Kings and where they are right now, which is this. Two years ago, they win 48 games, their best season in nearly 20 years. First playoff appearance is 2006. Mike Brown's coach of the year. Monty McNear's executive of the year.

Darren Fox is clutch player of the year. Fox and Sabonis make third team all NBA, both of them. That was just two years ago. And now no Deer and Fox, no Mike Brown. Jeremy Lamb's running wild in the front office. They are a play in team at best. I don't know who the heart of this team is anymore with Deard Fox gone. Like, is it a bonus by default?

Is it Zach Levine and Damar de Rosen with this like Bulls West thing? Like, I keep coming back to just like a what the hell happened. And I know that that's not a simple answer. But I guess it's maybe instead of what the hell happened, where do they possibly go from here? Because this is a team without a North Star. Deer and Fox was their North Star or Fox and Sabonis as a pairing was, they don't have one now to my mind. Like I look at this team and I think they're,

they're almost literally the Bulls where the Bulls were for several years, where it was just, we're just treading water. We've got some good players, players with good resumes, but they weren't going anywhere. Like, where do the Kings go from here? It's not pretty. The other night to your question, Howard, the Bulls were in town. so they had the first Zach Levine reunion game after the trade.

And I heard that, and I didn't go to that game. I kind of wish I did because I heard the Bulls locker room was a little spicy. DeMar came over postgame to say hello to some of his old friends. And I'm blanking on who this was. But one of the role players on the Bulls apparently had a good time with Demar. Because Kevin Herder, who was in that trade going from sack to Chicago, had 25 points against his former team. And so one of the Bulls was yelling in the locker room,

you know, tell him, Kevin, tell him who won the effing trade, you know, like all having a good laugh about this deal. You know, on the flip side, it's like, I don't know, man. Like I'm not hearing great things about how kind of Zach is, you know, enjoying his time so far in sack. It feels like this mishmash kind of roster with subonis. in the middle. We also reported that Domas, when he gets to

this summer, is going to have a lot of questions for the organization, which, by the way, is like the same sort of coded language that the Deeran Fox saga began with. It's the same stuff. And that is 100% accurate in terms of where he is at. Questions about process,

questions about culture, questions about direction. They have basketball-wise this like pickup team of Malik Munk and to Rose and Levine and, you know, a lot of ISO players with a guy in Sabonis who is, you know, typically flourishing with a system like Mike Brownhead and it was working pretty well last couple years.

So I don't know where they go. Levine's got, what is it, next year and then a player option for the following year. Sabonis got three years left. They got all this money on the books. You know, the best thing they got in the Fox trade was that 2031 Minnesota pick. You know, I've had it put to me this way. like that's a really strong pick. And it's like if you combine that with one of these big salaries,

who knows what you can get this summer to pivot. So we're going to have to wait and see. But they appear to have gone for this, you know, short-sighted, remain competitive approach where in trading Fox, you went and got a guy like Levine, you know, rather than putting the spurs in a corner and saying, no, we're going to get some of your young guys or some of your assets. They didn't get anything from San Antonio.

So next thing you know, there's just no clarity about where it's all going. So it seems like the kings are reputationalally what they've always been, right? And it seems like with Vavec, and these moves speak to that to me of more than anything, Vivek would like to be relevant in whatever the basketball conscience is, whether it's like being courtside, being around, you know, certain types of people. He likes being the guy in the mix more than anything, right? Like, I don't even think he knows really how to win other than copying what he thinks the Warriors did 10 years ago. That's what it seems to be his philosophy.

But I feel like there is a, and you've alluded to this Sam during this pod, but it feels like reputationalally, they are beginning to look like the organization once again where you can't try. trust anything that's going on in there if you work there, right? Like you talk about Mike Brown, you know, getting fired. But the other part of that is from the moment that Mike Brown walked into the building, he had to keep his head on a swivel because people, you know, from the Warriors organization, people around the league were warning him, hey, man, you guys got this, you got Doug Christie, who's waiting in the wings because Vivek likes him. And not only did Mike Brown have to deal with that, Luke Walton also had to deal with that before him, right?

And then you go from a front office stamp. Alvin Gentry, too. Alvin Gentry as well, who was still on the king's payroll somehow. I don't know how that it's still hilarious how that works. But then you go from the front office standpoint and Monty McNair where, you know, he's trying to make a name for it came here to try to make a name for himself. and say what you want about the boobs or anything. But it's still bad optics when Vivek Rana DeVeves has Vladay Divac sitting courtside in that power chair that you speak of, right? And it's just when I think about those little anecdotes, I just, I can't imagine working in an environment like that where you have an ownership that or you have a Vec who is a guy that listens typically to like just the last person who,

gave them advice, it seems like. My question to you is a long-winded way of asking you, how do they shake that reputation and how hard will that be? What do they have to do to shake that reputation that there's so many, there's so much smoke and mirrors in this organization. And it's back to the old days in 2011, when I first started interning over there, it's still back to that type of days, right? I feel like the happiness and the honeymoon period of Bevet getting the team and keeping them in Sacramento is a bit, it seems to be over.

So like how do they now at least build their reputation up after these last couple of years of semi-postseason relevance? Man, I mean, I do not have an answer for that, Logan. Like I just, they're chasing right now. You know what I mean? Like the mistakes have compounded themselves

and I think they're chasing the relevancy they're chasing that little taste they got a couple of years ago. I don't know the answer to that because it's swinging the other direction. And I'm not even trying to be funny here, but we joked about Saks State Davis, Mike Bibi getting hired, right? Bobby Jackson was in the running for that Sack State job. And I bring that up because it's wild to me that from Doug Christie to Vlade to Mike, and I like all those guys individually, but you continue to have this over emphasis in this kind of adulation of that old Kings team from back in the day that they benefit from,

whereas a guy like Bobby, Bobby was an assistant coach for years with the Kings, and I had so much respect for the fact that he ultimately decided to kind of get outside the family a little bit and go get more respect in the coaching community elsewhere. He goes to Philly, working with Nick Nurse. I would see him on the road, and it was like, you know, that staff say what you will, of the results, but that staff absolutely grinds, right? And Bobby would talk about, man, late nights all the time. Like, Bobby put the work in. And part of me, when I saw the Sack State news and I'd heard a few things about the process, I'm like, damn, like the guy who put the work

in and went elsewhere to get respect, he can't even get the other job in town. Because I guarantee he would have loved to have been the King's head coach like Doug is right now. And I think all of that speaks to your question and like the the kind of the holistic question of what do they value and why and so if you're going to continue you know endorsing based on nostalgia and based on relationships that aren't you know kind of grounded in merit and results then it's going to be messy you know and new players you know the Levines the derosans there's a bonuses like these guys who are smart are going to read the room and be like man what is this weird little world that that we're in now and how do I get out? You know, I think by and large that that's a something that

they're going to face this summer. Because there is a worst case scenario here, guys, where you see the domino effect of the Fox situation, meaning, okay, all of a sudden, let's go to a guy who should matter more than all the others, who is Keegan Murray, who is a good young player, a two-way player, who's shown a lot of promise, who is extension eligible this summer, and who has gone from being a guy on the rise to being a guy who has to kind of fight for shots with, you know, a guy in De Rosen who just passed 25,000 points, a guy in Levine who is a bucket and always wants the ball in his hands. Malik Monk wants that ball. So bonus, you know, so you see the domino effect, right? Like, maybe something doesn't get done with Keegan. Maybe guys ask out this summer. And that's where to go

back to your original question, like, how do they fix it? How do they fix that reputation? I mean, I don't see it right now. I just think it's a matter of tracking some of the fallout. What was the difference during that run for you? What was the difference amic during, because you were there more than I was obviously. What was the difference during that two-year run where they were going to the postseason? Was it just a matter of like Mike Brown got them in shape, got them in the right frame of mind and it just figured itself out. It was a lot of things coming together. Or was there an actual institutional change even if it was for two years? No, they, to Vivek's credit, he empowered the front office and got out of their way. I mentioned Alvin Gentry in passing.

It's worth reminding people. And I'm actually glad to be honest, that you bring up like the small little window of success because they got to learn from it and try to replicate it. So Alvin was up for the job. And Doug was up for the, let me, I'm trying to get the memory back here. When Doug was up for the job post Luke Walton, Monty McNair and West Wilcox in the front office, you know, they wanted Alvin to have the job. There was a push internally for Doug to possibly get the job. Well, so when that pressure comes in terms of the decision, well, Alvin ends up getting the

job. So the front office did, was able to do what they wanted to do. That type of stuff is important. That's what was happening in the first year. Mike Brown was empowered to coach. the team the way he wanted to. Mike, and I would talk to him routinely all throughout that season, you know, kind of on the record and background. And it was like, man, Vivek's great, Vavex, you know, been great. You hear all these stories. It's not that bad. It's great. And then it was like they go

into last summer, you know, after missing the playoffs, lose to New Orleans in the playing game. And that's when everything turned because Mike wanted his extension, which I do think was well deserved. I mean, my God, you broke the longest playoff drought in the league. But Beck clearly didn't want to give him the extension. Next thing, you know, he does begrudgingly hand it over at the same time of like, you know, it seems to be giving some thought to like, how long do I want this guy to be my coach? Like, that's not a great mentality to go into a season with in the summertime. So during that two years, you know, with kind of declining, you know, along the way,

he let the front office cook and he let the coaches come. And that's how this should work. You've got to trust your people instead of constantly questioning them. I think one of the themes with this organization that continues is there's always someone in the room. Like, it's okay to have dissenting voices, but there's always someone in the room who seems to be kind of quietly, you know, undercutting the people who are trying to do things the right way. You know, whether it's even people who have a ton of respect, you know, Vebec had Chris Moll and Joe Dumas, Vlady DeVots, as advisors during, during times when, you know, Pete D'Aselandro and other GMs were doing their thing. Anyway, I'm rambling on it.

But the, you know, the process during those two years was cleaner with the owner backing his people. And that's the biggest factor. Okay. I'll go. I'll go. I'll go. Okay. You're good.

I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. It's, it's, I just, I'm just, every time I see, you know, whatever, you know, I go to Sacramento periodically and then come down to the bay. a few times a year. And just it's very just disappointing when you see just the amount of potential from that team and what could be. There's a lot of good people in that organization.

And also like the fan base. And I always bring access for the fan base, Sam, because I think more than most teams, like as Oklahoma City is in there as well. But they are so entrenched in everything that that organization does. And it seems like there's so. happy to have a team that they're in denial about other things at times and they don't want to hear the right stuff and hold the team accountable in the ways that they should. And I think that that's a reason why, you know, the kings get away with a lot of stuff. The Cangs do. So it's just

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See terms at sportsbook. Fandual.com. Family problem called 180 gambler or visit RG dash help.com. Let's talk quick MVP at this point. I don't know if you saw this, Sam, because you know you listen to, or you read mostly the athletic. You don't really read our site like that, but it's cool. we had an MVP.

You're going to talk to your loyal listener like that? Man, put some respect on my fan club name. Geez. First of all, I didn't even get Sam, mother F, and Amic. Like, I can't even, like, get the intro that I was so hyped for,

and now you're going to give me shade. Like, what is happening right here? No, my bad. My bad. My bad. I'm sorry. Yo, it's crazy. I didn't know the,

the motherfucker was, like, the big thing. I didn't know, like, It takes out of life on its own. Ben Stiller. Ben Stiller wanted it. Come on. But no,

that's when it clicked. I was like, oh, okay. It's usually, it's funny because I'm, I'm sure both of you guys guys did. Also,

I just whisked out and I didn't even say it, which is just pathetic. But what people don't know is like the motherfucker actually started with these two because I would like, you know, sometimes they would just be like, yo, I killed it.

But, you know, I don't know, they would just be not down in a dumps, but you know, I would have to just give a pep talk. So I'll be like, yo,

you're Sam, fucking Amic, right? Or I'll be like, yo, Howard, your Howard motherfucking Beck. What are we doing? So that's how it started. So you guys are the original motherfuckers. Fair enough.

I'm allowed to fire. Yeah. Right. Anyways, ever since a couple weeks ago, I think we've just like, the ringer is a single-handedly, and I'm in this as well. Just gutted Yokic's chance

for MVP with the MVP pick that we did. I think Yokin's won the pole 9-1, and I don't think he's played a game since the poll came out from the ringer. Right. You guys got that aside. Can't blame me.

I was the one on the 9-to-1. Yeah, yeah. He was like, but Chase's emails. But, no, I think that, where are we at? Is this a chase to lose at this point? Like, are we, are we, is it pretty much wrapped up in your eyes? So are we, are we done with the, with the MVP race at this point?

Yeah, I mean, Joe. or not playing is is terrible timing as a quick aside logan because i don't know how locked in you are when you do your pod did you happen to see that i texted you about 10 minutes ago because i think we should loop that into uh this discussion so take a peek at your phone and and you can make the editorial decision it's mvp related um okay i so i've been i voted for shay in the latest round of the timbantem synonymous espon poll um admittedly had this voice in my head like, man, I don't want to regret another Joker MVP. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hang on. Let's pause this really quickly.

I just want everybody to know the text that Amick sent me was one plugging his own story with Janus, I did a cumbull. That's great. Good for you. Yeah, yeah, yep, yep. Make sure you go read it. I met the athletic in case people do. Yeah, this is the umpteenth one-on-one with Sam Mamik and Janus, I did a cumbo. And Janus had an interesting quote for Sam. A little bit too close for comfort, but this relates to the MVP discussion. Listen, the MVP discussion is great. I've been in the MVP discussion.

What? Like the last seven years, it's a great compliment. But at the end of the day, winning is a different feeling. I was able to live in once in 2021. I don't know if people feel like it counts or it doesn't count, but winning is winning. So was the NBA Cup. It was like, wow, this feeling, man,

it's better than intimacy. Jesus. Okay. Yannis was all hot and bothered and sacked when he saw. Jesus. Not the first time. He's literally dropped that line before, to the point where before he finished the line and to set the scene,

we're sitting in the visitor's locker room at Golden One Center. and I started laughing before he said it because I'm like, you're going to do it again, aren't you? Because he did it like two years ago in an interview, same exact line. My favorite part was that you'll see in the interview is that I didn't know what else to say other than his lovely wife's name is Mariah. And I just said, I hope Mariah doesn't read the athletic. And he laughed and she's about to have their fourth baby.

he's like, ah, she's busy. She's about to have another baby. But yeah, he, he's different, man. A little NC17 Janus interview. So it was, it was, that's not even your, like, that's like your third one of those, huh? It's just, geez, geez. Which?

It's a third, like, intimate interview with, with Janus that did in Cumbull. Anyway, let's go to the MVP discussion. You were saying about Yokic. I was leaning towards Joker before he got hurt. And it's just, I have a hard time with, with this one it's it's you know i'm not going to cop out i got to vote for somebody um howard i forget if you still vote and logan if you do because everybody has different feelings on it yeah like

i don't i still vote and you know like but this feels like you know when it's like you just don't want anybody to lose like the race is that good and even despite what i wrote about yannis i mean i get that it's there's a tier you know those two guys and then yonis i do get that um but shea and you know, the collective greatness of that OKC team combined with the two-way play, which is remarkable. And the leadership stuff that honestly, you know, if I vote for him, might be the thing that ultimately makes me comfortable is that take all the counting sets away, take all the analytics away, and they look fantastic for both guys.

You know, some of this stuff is like if they wind up winning 67 games and they do it with a bunch of guys who are pretty young and impressionable, and there's just a lot of guys. and there's this 25-year-old guy in SGA who has absolutely set the tone for their entire environment. Mark Dagnold had a great quote the other day when he was asked about Shea and MVP. And essentially he was asked, you know, hey, Michael Malone of the Nuggets has been very vocal in his support of Joker. What's your style? And he's like, well, I take my cues from Shay who says that he just, it's just the winning. That's all he cares about.

And it's like, man, you got the head coach, you know, falling in line with the guy. So Shea's been incredible, but Joker's just unbelievable. That aura, you know? Yeah, man. No, the aura is real. We saw that at the NBA Cup when he got a little taste of like kind of the spotlight that he's going to have again in this postseason. So it's a tough one. Joker has been absurd.

But I think the Nuggets falling off a bit like they have is, you know, not helping his cause. And on top of that, him being out means he's now played, I think it's like 10 fewer games. I mean, it's not 10. I think he's missed 10 games. I think he's played like seven or eight fewer than Shea. And like all this stuff matters. And that's the thing. Like, you know, people, especially when the people who are partisans, fans themselves of the two teams and the two players, or Michael Malone, who has been incredibly aggressive over the last five years about painting it always as if you don't vote for my guy, you're a guy.

a moron. And I love Michael Malone. Great dude. And I've known him a long time. But like, he's a, he's a bit much when it comes to this stuff. The framing of this gets annoying. But the fact is, if you step away from all that, and if you're not a partisan for one of these guys, and if you're just like us, where we're just trying to sort it all out, every piece of this matters, right? The individual stats matter. The winning matters. The degree of winning. How dominant is, you know, of a season, did you have and did your team have? Because the team elements always been baked into this thing. games played is baked into it. And if one guy played two games more than the other, we go, oh, that's no big deal.

But if you played 10 games more than the other, that's a big deal. If you played 20 games more, it's a really big deal. So it's like all these things exist on a bit of a sliding scale. How much does a games play matter? How much do the wins matter? How much does the difference in your effective field goal percentage or your assist rate or whatever matter? It's all of it. It's not any one thing.

It's all of it. And it is ultimately subjective. and a judgment call, especially in a year like this, where you have two guys who are absolutely both incredibly deserving. And, you know, that's the case a lot of years. So the only thing that bothers me is the way people talk about this, where, you know, it's, we've veered too far into the, if you didn't vote for this guy, it's because you're an idiot or you don't, you don't understand. you're not smart enough to understand how great Yokic is or it's, you know, the, you know, I won't get into the voter fatigue rant today, but the voter fatigue thing drives me crazy too because I don't know a single voter ever who's ever actually said out loud, you know what, I'm just tired of this guy, so I'm voting for, like the people who talk about that are almost always the people who don't actually have the votes, don't actually have ballots. It's everybody else who says it. And sometimes it's other media people. But it's, but nobody has ever said in, 2011, I voted for, you know, this guy over this guy because I was tired of it. Like, is it conscious? Is it subconscious? Because I've never seen anybody actually say that they've done it this way. It's an assumption.

Not even in 2011 with Derek Rose and LeBron? There wasn't actually there was. No. No, and specifically that one, especially that one. Get in your back. LeBron had won two in a row. He loses the rows and he wins the next two in a row. So he wins four and a five year span. If people were truly fatigued, would you vote for the same guy? Would you give it to him four times in five years? Probably not. On top of that, the reason the street was broken that Derek Rose beat him, the Bulls had a much better season in just in the wind column. They had a 60, I think they won 61 games that year. And there was an incredible backlash against LeBron on a thousand other counts because he had just made the decision capital D. So there was a backlash that colored the race as much or more than any notion of fatigue or anything else. He had gone to the heat. They had not. quite achieved to the levels of dominance that I think people expected. And there was a lot of distaste at that time that people have now forgotten about about him going to going to Dwayne Wade's team, teaming up with Dwayne Wade and counterargument. And Derek Rose was surrounded by Tage Gibson, Jo Kim Noah, Lual Dang, whatever.

They get good players, but not outstanding players. That was how the MVP was decided that year. And I say that, by the way, as somebody who did not vote at that time. Counter argument, though, because you said there was no backlash. However, you did say that there was back. There was backlash, but not fatigue. Those are different things. So the point that someone would make, though, is that, like, LeBron didn't win it because of things that he,

maybe a reaction that he couldn't control that was outside of the court and outside of his play. Would be an argument that someone would make about that. No, but it's competitive, Logan, in terms of, like, that's a competitive criticism that he stacked the deck. You don't, you know, agree or disagree. I think Howard's point is well taken when you compare the fabric of that Bulls team to what LeBron had. That was the idea was that we're not going to celebrate his greatness as much as D. Roses because of the support that he has, which to bring it back to this MVP race, I think is what's going to help Shea a lot, is that this OKC team is winning at that kind of a level. It is almost, to be honest with you, a little bit de-rose-ish, although I don't, you know, I mean, the comp is kind of fascinating because the guys around Shea, they have respect, but they don't have reputations and resumes, you know, even like the guys in Denver, Jamal Murray and Aaron Gordon and those type of guys. I mean, you're talking about Jaylon Williams and Chet Holmgren who can't stay healthy. And, you know, it's Shea and the misfits.

Shea and a bunch of guys that he's bringing up with him. But I think the LeBron thing, You know, that was, there was a competitive element to that feedback and that pushback. Yeah. We'll see what happened. I will say, I will say. The Bulls won 62 games, by the way, that year. 62 games in the heat won 158. So it wasn't a huge difference in wins.

But anything over 60, you had a phenomenal season. And yeah, Derek Rose got extra credit, I think, for not having superstars around him. And because LeBron was dragged down by all the backlash to the decision. But, Sam, respect. You can't say this, though. Shea does is playing alongside an all-star and I don't in Yokit you cannot make that distinction. So, I mean, there's a better. I know, but.

You know what I mean? I don't want to, I don't want to suspect J-dub. No, I hear you. But he's, he's still, he's still coming into public consciousness. He's still proving himself. I mean, he's, you know, he earned it this year, no doubt. And then we know the guy in Denver. I mean, he's just one of the more kind of, you know, enigmatic stars out there.

Like, Jamal is the best non-all-star, and I wrote this last year, like, potentially in history of the game. He's a guy who just doesn't play consistently, but he's a champion and we've seen who he is at his best. So it's not, no, it's not that OKC doesn't have anything. It's the fact that I think Shay gets a lot of credit for the way all of those guys are improving quickly because, again, he's the guy at the center of it all. I just I feel like we were just robbed of just a great a great run down the stretch between these two players and I do get you know Yokic is injured yokech is going through things but I just feel like

and we've talked about this on this program just man that would have been cool to just see them kind of battle it out down the stretch of the season and just see just haymakers individual performances that would have been a lot of fun and I think if that would have happened but I think Yokic would have a bit more votes, just because, like, I made this argument about Yokic

in the ringer piece, which was, I am going to remember this statistical season from Yokic and remember where I was and a lot of the performances that he had forever. I don't know if you could say that necessarily for Shea in this way. I know his stats are really good this season, but just the number of individual performances, is like you're going up against Will Chamberlain.

Like, that's crazy. I'm going to remember that from Yolkuton. It's just a shame that we can't really see them kind of slug it out down the stretch. But anyways, can I add a quick stat to the old MVP discussion just because it's going to make me sleep better at night if I do vote for Shea? Like one thing that I dug in on when I wrote something recently was that, I mean, Shea's only playing 34 and a half minutes a game. But in terms of like dominance and impact when he's on the court, and I'll make it brief here, guys.

But like 33, six and five, you know, those marks have only been hit six times in the history of the game. MJ did it twice. So I looked at the two seasons when MJ had those marks and tried to game it out per 100 to just see the impact when he's on the court. And what jumped out of me is that per 100 possessions. Shea this season is 46.2 points, 8.7 assists, 7.1 boards. But man, like the 46 compared to Michael and his two seasons with those kind of statistical

achievements. It went, you know, again, Shea's 46. Mike was 40 and 42.7. And obviously, you talk about Will, MJ, like, these dudes are doing stuff that is up there with the all-time grades. We're picking, you know, there's not a bad pick, especially between the two. What they're doing is incredible.

But, you know, in terms of Shea and that MJ comparison that sometimes kind of feels sacrilege, it's actually fair and I think warranted this season. Must be 21 years and older and president's select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in D.C. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RGhelp.com. 8887-8-7-7-7 or visit ccpg.org backslap chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland.

Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline, m.a.org or call 1-800-327-50-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8777-8-Hope-N-Y or text Hope N-Y in New York. All right. Let's get, it's Tuesday. Let's get to a mailbag. Cliff, what's going on, buddy? What's good with y'all, man? Sam, what's up, man?

You ready for this? I'm ready, Cliff. Let's do it, brother. All right, let's get to the first one here. This is a Timberwolves question. This is from Zach Rankin. Timberwolves, most important offseason ever. Hi, guys.

Not going to open by telling you I like the show. Obviously, I like the show. That's why I'm writing an email to you guys and asking your opinions. That said, I love to hear you guys. dive a bit on the upcoming T. Wolf season, or off season, sorry, with new ownership, Tim Connelly's future in flux, multiple player options, Julius Randall and Os Reid, and a looming Kevin Durant possibility. There are a lot of balls up in the air right now as we head towards what should be Ants Prime. I know this year has been a bit of backlash on Ant with technicals

and decrease of frequency for shots at the rim combined with the regression of the team's success. Do you see Anthony Edwards as a top five MVP candidate next season? Thanks in advance and hope to hear you guys address this on the pod. Zach Rankin. Zach. I don't know where that came from. That was nuts. Oh.

The Minnesota offseason. It is a very critical offseason. The fortunate thing is that they do have Anthony Edwards, who I do believe is going to be a perennial MVP candidates. And it could be that next year. his presence makes it easier to build around him than as to not do it. I mean, they got to figure out what to do with Julius Randall. I don't know if the Durant trade necessarily makes them better.

Maybe it makes the vibes better. You know, it's a pivotal offseason. I don't know what they necessarily are going to do or aren't going to do. But, you know, I just push back on the notion that the KD trade is, where trade for KD is going to make them better. But I do since new ownership syndrome, I do sit from Minnesota, and I would want to caution them against making anything drastic because Ant is going to be really good, hopefully for a long time.

And I don't want for this organization to make a drastic move in the name of, we need to be contenders right now, and we need to make, basically do what the sons have done over the last couple of years. I think that they should just stay the course and they do have a great player and they just need to make smart decision. Sam? Howard?

First of all. Aggies, anybody? I'll jump in. I'll go Stingers first. Naturally. Come on now. I want to say this though, Sam. I would say UC Davis had the better parties. Your thoughts.

Whoa. Man, I got commentary. I'm going to keep it to myself. Logan, you should be on our side, man. Come on. I'm never going to come on the pot again. This is the end right now. Before I jump in on Minnesota Cliff, I got to tell you, as a loyal listener of the pot, I enjoyed very much your reading of the question. And the light bulb went off because the voice is a funny thing right in the brain. I was like, oh, this is the cliff. This is Cliff that I listen to all the time. I always love this part of the show. So it's like you got your mailbag voice. that just kind of, you know, flip that switch for me. So appreciate it, man. Of course.

At least one of you appreciate it. We love. So Minnesota. Go stingers, go stingers up. Yeah, see? Take that, Howard. I got Cliff now. I got Cliff.

The pandering. This is how you recruit. You guys don't know anything about recruiting. Never going to say a nice thing about the Sixers again. Now that we're alive. So we're on the same boat, Howard. Now that we're alive. All right, Minnesota, tricky off season.

You know, the indications I've gotten about Durant again, because, you know, we wrote, other people wrote at the deadline that, you know, they had made a last-ditch attempt to try to get KD. It didn't really go anywhere. They didn't, they were calling all around the league trying to move pieces because they were not positioned to make that happen, but they were trying to, you know, get it in there before the deadline. It didn't happen.

I don't think that is a priority. in the summer that at least the way it was put to me because the Nas read extension now needs to become the priority. I'm not going to pretend to know all of the economics, but that was kind of the framing that was shared with me, that the Nas is a major priority to lock him up this summer. From there, they do have a lot of uncertainty because I think there's pressure to make sure that Ant doesn't start looking at greener pastures. It is what it is. He's a young star who, you know, most of the league would love to have.

As an aside, it's probably worth, you know, kind of highlighting or recapping that that Minnesota was the only team in the Luca Donchus trade that got a call from Dallas, from Nico Harrison that was, would you do star for star? And like, so, you know, something compelled them to think that maybe Minnesota would think about that. They obviously said, no, it didn't go anywhere. but that tells you what the backdrop is here and the importance of this particular offseason. You add into that, you know, the fact that you got Julius Randall,

who, you know, they've been winning a lot of games with lately with the player option for next year. They need to make sure that Ant feels supported and that he's got, you know, guys to go out and kick ass with. And I don't know what that looks like because, yeah, you mentioned the Tim Conley thing too, Cliff. like you know, you got a guy who built this whole thing, you know, who has got to make a decision for his future as well. So, you know, instability when you have one of the best young players in the league is not ideal. I think in some form or fashion, they've got to find a way to kind of get back to stability. I would just add like on a positive note here or optimistic note. Like I think you never know what new owners are going to do.

I just wrote about this last week with the sale of the Celtics. Like you just don't know how a new owner is going to proceed until they have. actually get into the job and start working. But Laurie and Arod were huge in getting Tim Connolly there in the first place. And Tim Connolly is one of the smartest guys in front offices in the NBA. So I'm not overly concerned with them turning into the next Matt Ishbia and like making a swing for the fences dealer, a bunch of them. And I don't think that they have to do that.

I think that they need to keep just, you know, steadily building around. Also, by the way, I don't think they're in an wherever Durant ends up being traded this summer, the sun should be going for draft capital and the Timberwolves don't really have it because they spend it all to get Gobert. So I think Connolly, these are just like gut feelings. I think Connolly stays. I think Julius Randall gets either traded or signed and traded, depending on how he handles his option. I think they reinvest in Nas Reid. Naz Reed becomes the Julius Randall replacement and effectively the Carl Anthony Towns replacement. I never thought that the towns for Randall thing meant that Randall was a permanent fixture there. I think that was just a,

we need to match salaries and make a deal. So those are my just initial gut feelings about them. But I think they'll be fine. Smart front office, you know, Gobert's season has been a little wonky, and that's a concern. But they've got great talent. They got a great front office. They got a great coach.

It's going to be challenging to keep improving the roster, but I think they're going to be fine. Good stuff, good stuff. Yeah, let's get to this next question. This is from Kevin Grundy. Hello, Logan, Rajah, MF, and Beck and Cliff. Also, Sam, this is obviously welcome to you as well. Greetings from San Francisco.

It was great catch you guys live. Now that it has been a decent amount of time since Luca trade and it doesn't seem like things can get any worse, I think it's time we analyze a different trade that doesn't get enough scrutiny. Given how things are playing out this year, the SGA PG-13 trade looks even worse. SGA is on the brink of winning MVP and one of the picks the Thunder got in exchange for PG-13 is Alan Williams, who looks like an all-star candidate for next season. Meanwhile, the Clippers don't have PG. Maybe this is a good thing.

Who is now on the Sixers and out for the rest of the season. Although when each trade happened, I heard to read that. Luca Dill does seem worse at face value. I would argue that SGA trade will be more impactful in the long term and overall team success. Thoughts, all the best, Kevin Grundy. Definitely. I remember Doc Rivers said,

something, I think it was on Bill's pod, just about how he told Kauai like, hey, yo, like, I don't know if you want to trade this SGA guy, like, he's really good, he could be something. They were like, no, we're going to go along with the trade. And I think there is, there should be some context as to what the environment was at that point, right? Like, SGA at that point was considered a really great prospect. I don't think anyone saw what, at least in the

greater consciousness, saw it was going to be, like this one day. And also you were bringing in PG and Kauai Leonard in its prime. Like the Clippers and the Clippers did pretty well to start, right? They went to the, they went deep into the playoffs into that bubble season. They were one of the best teams in the league. I don't think it's as cutting dry is just saying like this in hindsight, yeah, it was pretty bad. But in the moment, I don't think that you would have thought it was going to

go down like this. That's fair. Like I think that there should just be it was bad it didn't age well i would say it didn't age well but in the moment i don't think it was i don't think it was as bad as people thought it was going to be i get what kevin's getting at here but i just disagree with the comparison like the first thing is this and i know this is hard for people especially once we're years past when a trade was made but you have to judge a trade firstly based on on the circumstances as they were at the moment of the trade and the thought process. So the Clippers, risks involved, yes, but there was sound process there because it was, well, to get Kauai, we have to get Paul George. That was what Kauai told us.

So to get Paul George, we have to trail it. So you have to look at it in the context of, you really traded all this stuff to get the pairing of them. Two top 15, top 20 players in their prime simultaneously to a franchise that prior to the Chris Paul Blake Griffin era had had no tradition of winning, no tradition of stars wanting to be there. Kauai and Paul George, not for nothing, wanted to be Lakers at various times, or at least the Lakers, excuse me, the Lakers wanted them at various times. So the clippers get these two guys, and it cost them a bundle, but the process in the moment was fine.

The process in the moment of the Luca trade was not fine. It is the farthest thing from fine. So judge this on the basis of what you exchanged and what your thought process was to get the player that you wanted on the day that you did it. then there's the results part of it. And the results, it's not that they don't matter. If the Clippers could have seen in the future and that Shea Gilgis Alexander was going to become a perennial MVP, maybe they do this differently. But nobody can see the future to that extent.

There were people in the organization who really liked him and didn't want to give him up. But that was the cost of doing business. And yeah, nobody knew who was going to be an MVP. But by the way, the Clippers have rebounded okay. Like they've done all right. Like they're seventh right now. They're on pace for 46 wins. They've got James Hardin, Kauai, Norm Powell, Zub.

Like, they're a respectable team. Again, the Mavs, not so much. And I don't, we've covered this plenty. I don't think the Mavs have much of a path to getting to recovering from the disaster that the Luca trade was. And on top of all that, everything else, by the way, if you go back from 2019 to now, the Clippers are fifth in wins in the NBA behind Boston, who won a champion, Milwaukee who won a championship, Denver who won a championship, and Phoenix who went to the finals.

So the Clippers are fifth and wins behind four champions, or excuse me, three champions and an NBA finalist. Like, they did okay. They did okay. I don't think the next five years of the Dallas Mavericks is going to look anywhere near that. Howard Beck, Lee Jenkins got to you, my friend. have not have not have not have not have not spoken to lee in a very long time but but thank you for throwing thank you for throwing our old friend under the bus and turning this all on him it's nothing to do with he's with the clippers been there for years now an important part of their program I do agree with everything you said about process um you know what I'll add to it is that I mean listen we wrote an left long three, four thousand word story at the time on how that deal went down and celebrated

their ability to get Dwight Leonard and Paul George. I do understand why they did it. And I think, you know, 10 times out of 10, they do it again. The tricky thing is, and Howard, this kind of intersects with your history and your past, there were not only people who thought Shay was going to be really good. There was one guy in particular, you know, the great late Jerry West who knew that Shea was very good. It was an advisor with the Clippers, Steve Bomber's kind of, you know, voice in the room in

addition to that front office at the time. So that, it's a hard one because it was pretty loud that they knew Shea was going to be good and like really good. Like maybe not MVP good, but like All-Star good for sure. It doesn't, you know, it didn't age well. But what I like to spin it forward about the Clippers, and this, again, is a compliment to their continued process. And like you said earlier, Howard,

like that simple concept, you know, C.C. Kings on like ownership, letting their people do their jobs is that their choice to not come to terms with Paul George last summer had, it was not just about second aprons and restrictions and things like that, or even paying, you know, a 37, 38-year-old Paul George, you know, ungodly amounts of money. It was also pivoting to the future post James Harden, post Paul George,

because, and ironically, with somebody like Luca in mind, the summer of 2026, they have a ton of freedom and are planning on, you know, going after the biggest and best in the game, whoever that might be pre-agency-wise. So while they are competing and having, you know, success right now and managing, you know, to give the Clipper fans a little fun during this first season, season in the Intuit dome, like they're already planning for the next thing, which is how you should do it.

That's also not dissimilar to where they were in 2019, right? And I think this is a good model to be as an NBA team, right, where you are, you are being competitive at all times while keeping your options up, right? Like, they were doing the same thing going into the 2019 offseason. And in 2019, it worked out for them in their mind, right? They got Kauai and PG. They got an opportunity to do it again. So that'll be fun to watch.

pretty sure. Cliff. One more, I think. All right, one more. This is not really, I don't even know where the question is in this, but you can just respond to this. Joshua Boris. Hey, guys, first time he's like every week, you guys talk about the Sixers and how fucked up their situation is. Roger reminds us how good and beat is when he's healthy. Cliff's size, Logan gets back to talk about how bad they've been to get their picks. We know, is this a bit by Logan? Is Cliff a glut for punishment? Or did he steal on you in this? is your way to get him back. Celtic's second in the east, Bill Simmons produced Celtic City,

but somehow we get more Sixers real ones. What the fuck? J.B. from D.C. Wait, we got somebody from D.C. He must be a Sixers fan. Must be a Transplan. We got somebody from D.C. Capon for the Sixers and capable of Clip? You got love to D.C. I'm not sure what the Celtic City, Doc,

or Bill has to do with any of this. Okay. Non-Secler. You know what that is? That's a long-time listener of real ones and ringer content as a whole right there. Also, Howard, do you do a pod on that whole thing? Michael Pete and I did an entire one-hour pod on Celtic City on this very NBA, ringer NBA feed.

So go look that up. We've spent plenty of time on that. We have also spent plenty of time tweaking, depressing, and mocking Cliff for the state of his Sixers. Yes, that is true. And noting how the Celtics will probably win the championship again, right? I don't think that's been missed here. Yeah.

I understand. I don't even know how to respond to that. Cliff is not stolen on me. I know that is the Philly way. It's like cheese steaks and oversized beards, but he is not. We are very much friends. That's my dog.

You know what it is. Capture the flag, man. What the fuck, bro? Let's do one more. Let's do an actual, actual question. I don't even know what I mean. This is going to be, this is from a Thunder fan. Let me see you here.

Oh. He has a little gripe. Hang on one second. Why? But why? Well, you listen up. So Christopher, I think his name is Brufei. Brouffey.

Chris. So long time, first time. Really appreciate you guys for a great show. Let's get the business. I'm an OKC fan, hometown team. I am old, so I've been with them since the beginning. I have never seen such vitial for relatively little calls from NBA fans about a team. It's actually insane to me.

I get not liking a small market. I get not liking Oklahoma fans, fans of Texas, teams especially. That's all normally fine. I even understand not liking certain players. Lou is reckless sometimes, exclamation point. SGA is very, very good at punishing small defensive mistakes or exploiting an advantage he created. The online discourse about this team, though, Lou Door is dirtier than Bruce Brown. SGA's entire game is predicated on getting to the line. The refs constantly favor the thunder. All easily disproved by looking at season long stats or simply watching the game with even a little good faith. Guys, am I crazy in being a complete homer here to think

It is way too overboard. There's no homers in OKC guys, right? I don't believe that. No, they're typically rational out there. And they, I just want to say, I just want to say, I can speak for the panel. I think we love this OKC team. I don't think there's a, okay. I don't think that, I think that's a symptom of the OKC fans, like,

reading all the bad comments about them and just, like, putting a narrative out there. Too online. I don't know where they are online. I don't know. I mean, they do say Shea's a foul merchant, though. Like, I do see that. That's the only thing I really hear, though. And, like, there's some legit criticism in there.

It doesn't mean he's not MVP or is, or is, it's not worthy of the praise or award or whatever else. Okay. Which is how it's being weaponized. He has a swaggeriest team of all time of the last, like, 20 years. And they're really good. And they have an MVP candidate, dog. Like, this is. Yeah.

This is the, the problem is. Yeah. That's got to be a Texas thing or something. I also, and I'd never heard of it, heard that about Lou. door it either. I've only heard good things about him. Too much defense in the NBA. That's what we always say. Yeah. Exactly.

Everybody thinks their team is the one that gets picked on the most, especially the small markets. Everybody's got a chip on their shoulder. Everybody gets all provincial and defensive about their guys. Like, you know, settle down. The Thunder have gotten almost nothing but praise all season, I think, and so has Shea.

Are these OKC fans or Warrior fans? Jesus, I'm sorry. Did I say that out well? My bad. Oops. Did I say that? But to the point, every fan base feels like they're under seizure. Their team has been unfairly criticized. It's just, it's where we are. Do you feel like your team is unfairly criticized, Cliff?

Or is that just, is it right about it? Nah, they've been fairly criticized. Look at a rational Philly fan. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, is like, the Sixes don't have the greatest reputation here just based upon how the franchise carries themselves and the ownership and some of the weird things that they try to pull off, especially with the whole arena debacle,

trying to disrupt the certain part of the city. And then just reneging on that because the owner ended up buying the commanders and now that's where his focus is at. And you got the whole NB's situation, not going to practice and being hurt all the time, went to the Olympics, came back hurt. Paul George, I mean, podcasting, not podcasting.

We don't know what's up with him. Like, the six is just, they just don't win the PR battle ever. Like, they've done a million different things to just not good, look good in the light. But, I mean, people still show up the games. Like I said, I'll be at games and back to the brim. Everybody beat her.

So there's loyalty there somewhere. I just want to say for the listener that said that we'd be on Cliff's head, you just saw that Cliff is in agreement with most. I just want to say that. Sam, motherfucking stingers up. Amick, thanks so much for pulling up to the podcast. We'll have you on it sometime. soon. You know, we got to bring you on every

every so often. And that's been the show. Also, ruins mailbag at gmail.com. Rowansmailbag at gmail.mell.com. Rowansmailbag at gmail.com. Every Tuesday, you know how we do it. You know the motherfucking vibes. Howard motherfucking goaggy's back. Sam Amick. Cliff. Victoria. We'll see you guys Friday. All the shits. Bye.