The Ringer NBA Show - Did the Mavs Find a Blueprint for a Historic Comeback? Plus, Side-Eyeing Three Curious Free Agency–Adjacent Moves. | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 16, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos get together in the studio to discuss whether the Mavericks found a blueprint in Game 4 to climb back into the NBA Finals. Then, they talk through Kristaps Porzingis’s impact on this series and whether the Celtics need to make any adjustments heading into Game 5. They close things out by breaking down the Joel Embiid–Paul George interaction (33:31) and discussing Klay Thompson's removal of Warriors references from his Instagram account (44:06). Buy tickets to our live show in Los Angeles here! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available.  Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre Producers: Victoria Valencia, Tucker Tashjian and Ben Cruz Social: Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, humanoids. It's the Maskman David Shoemaker. It's a new era in professional wrestling, and that means a new era here at the Ringer Wrestling show. Kaz here, every Monday and Thursday hang out with me and my guys' shoes on the Masked Man show. And Ben Cruz here. Come kick it with me, Cal and Brian on Tuesdays for Ringer Wrestling Worldwide, where we hit on the most interesting headlines and even react to some of Maskedans and even your hottest takes. Don't tap out. Tap in to the Ringer Wrestling show feed now on Spotify. or wherever you get your podcasts. Worldwide.

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me in the studio live in color, big waz, and joining us from the road. Rob Mahoney, what's up? I'm back from the wilderness. Yeah. I've come into town. I've trudged into town.

I'm feeling the playoff grind, guys. I got to be honest with you. But we're here. And, you know, I would say despite our inclinations and our expectations, we still have an active series to discuss. That's, it's active. I don't know that we can call it a series, though. How does it feel to be around just like normal citizens that aren't wearing jerseys,

that aren't holding mics in front of people wearing jerseys? Do you need like a recalibration process? This is normal? These are the normal citizens? That's true. What Waz's at the very least? Yeah. Happy Father's Day?

Happy Father's Day. To you guys? Did you guys get me anything? Do you all too? Are you the pod daddy? Oh, I just figured considering everything with the nuggets, you know. Oh, okay. You guys want to call me your daddy.

I'm a dog father, too. That's true, that's true. He's romping around here on a Sunday morning as we're recording this on Spotify. Did he get you anything? No, unfortunately not. No thumbs. So I can type it into the web browser. Too bad.

Yeah. But yeah, happy Father's Day to everybody out there. Yeah, to all the dads. All the dads listen. We appreciate your work. I think they're probably a significant portion of our demographic. That's probably true. And if you want to get your dad a gift,

If you have like a couple hours before you need to beat the buzzer here, you know what the best gift of all would be? What would that be? Driving with him to Los Angeles, if you don't already live here, getting tickets at the ringer.com slash events for our live show on Tuesday, this Tuesday, two days from now. June 18th, 8 p.m. Elray Theater, Los Angeles, Fringer Residency.

I believe those are the bullet points. Yeah, Chris Ryan, Kyle, James, James Cowman. Jay Kyle, man, and us. Yeah. I always get the James and the Kyle, the order mixed up. It is tough. But yeah, we'll be out there talking finals, talking off season, talking draft, talking Q&As, perhaps. There's so many things to talk about.

Talking fathers and sons. Yeah. It's the event of the season. Exactly. Is that not the only story, you know, to talk about? That's what I think. I think we should spend the rest of the pod just setting expectations for the live show. What else could we possibly have to break down?

I wonder what Brani and Bronner doing today for Father's Day. That's a great question. What's Bryce doing? Bryce, yeah. What's Zuri up to? They are also, LeBron's children. Is she doing an adorable TikTok? Should we do an adorable TikTok?

No. The answer to that is definitely no. Okay. But we should talk about the NBA finals because despite all of our expectations, they're still ongoing. Yeah. Game four, what an event? Rob, you were there alive. What was that like?

A thrilling affair. Going from complete Mavs Exploval. Luka and Kairie looking totally dominant in the first half to looking up what the most lopsided NBA finals game in history was to, let me say, the crowd in Dallas going absolutely nuclear for Tim Hardaway Jr. in the fourth quarter. What is that about? Do we know what that is? Well, first of all, look, in a blowout game, you're looking for anything to get excited about. And a home crowd cheering a 30 plus point margin. They're just like, give us something to work with here. Right. And Tim Hardaway Jr., to his credit, now one of three,

players in NBA history to have a five three-point or quarter in the finals. Him, Steph Curry, and Ray Allen. The three greatest shooters of all time. One of those things does not belong. I was going to guess Danny Green. Remember when Danny Green just went off? Yeah. It was like the first three games there.

He was getting finals MVP chatter in 2013. But he fell off a cliff. None concentrated to a single quarter, I guess. It was, you know, three here, three there. Not all of us are Tim Hardaway Jr. He chopped it up. Yeah, what happened? Was there anything you picked up live there?

Was it just maybe the Mavs had more to lose in that game? What was going on? I do subscribe to the theory that the Celtics got a little ahead of themselves. And I think the way the Mavs came out, the energy they were playing with, the focus they were playing with. I think we can talk about that through the lens of Luka in particular. Maybe Boston was a little caught off guard by that. And they thought, you know, they've been able to rally back in these games. They've been able to respond to runs.

but the force that the Mavericks were playing with was overwhelming at the beginning of that game. And so then the shots didn't fall. The run never came. And all of a sudden, what was, you know, like a 12 to 15 point game ballooned and ballooned and ballooned

until it was just totally out of control. And Joe Mizzula's pulling guys with four or five minutes left in the third quarter. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because the Mavs came out like that in game three as well. They got out to a 13, I think it was 25 to 12.

And then before you looked up, they were only up by like six points. Yeah. Uh-oh, this is a problem. And I think maybe the Celtics were like, look, they did this the last game. We weathered the storm and we'll be fine. It's just they did not weather the storm. They did not.

They were like the weather guy and like the disaster tornado with his like poncho flying off and he's screaming into the mic to the studio. Is this like Twister spawn con? Yeah. Send that check. Glenn Powell. Come on group chat. Come on. Yeah, it was just pretty surprising.

It was over very quickly. I guess if you're going to play optimists on the Celtic side, it just didn't seem like they had anything to kind of counterbalance whatever the Mavs were doing. And so Mavs deserve all the credit for really punching them in the mouth and then repeatedly punching them as they were on the ground

until they were pretty much done. Please stop kicking the corpse that's on the ground at a certain point. But like, I can't think of a single Celtic who had a particularly good game. Maybe Sam Houser in crunch time. And by crunch time, I mean garbage time. Sam Houser, without the start,

having the ultimate green light was thrilling to me personally, just because this finals, I'm not going to lie. I'm like, yo, this guy is an actual real playoff rotational piece. The way he's defended, obviously the shootings already been there. But him being like, y'all, I'm going to take some pull-up, like off the dribble, jump shots was exciting. I don't know if I said this last time, but every time I watched Hauser, I'm like, pretty big.

And I've done that, like, 30 times throughout the season because you don't really notice him until he's hitting shots. And you're like, oh, man, some size on this guy. I feel like we do that with all these guys. The Duncan Robinson's, the Kyle Corvers. I was going to get at this because Luca was doing the sort of matchup hunting thing. And I'm like, why you're doing this, Luca, but this not maybe the best one to do. Like, I, of all people, understand why you might assume that that would be the guy you want to attack.

Maybe you should go at Derek White, who's, like, got a hundred pounds less than you, you know. But, like, watching him stand his ground, which I get is a funny term to use in this context. But, like, go with me. It was cool. I don't know. Like, I've been pleasantly surprised by Sam Howes' ability to, like, hold his own in an NBA finals. So you're saying he's a sneaky good isolation defender. That's what I'm hearing.

Yes, yes. It's very, very low-key. I cannot support on its face the idea of hunting Derek White instead of Samhouser. If you're Luca Donchis. But if you're Luca, yes. And I think we've seen that to some degree with Kyrie too, where they've both been successful, gradually more and more successful as the series has gone on with Derek White, withdrew holiday in some respects. Like getting used to the pressure that those guys apply and figuring out how to score over and around them in ways that, you know, Tatum and Brown just present a different kind of physical challenge with their length. even Samhousers is just like a longer contest.

But they can shoot over White and Holiday to some extent if they can kind of get to their spots and manipulate the space. Yeah, what's funny about Kyrie specifically is that he's been made better by just going. Like he's got all these handles, all of these moves. And I think he's realized like,

I gotta go one or two moves and go and not dance and try to like probe. And it's like that's when these guys get comfortable. So like going faster has been to his, benefit. And it's worked. And I wonder, right, because, you know, you guys will remember last year when the Lakers found something in Rui against the Kola Yokic.

Rob, do you think the Mavericks, quote, quote, found something in game four that they could credibly go to? I think there were some real inroads made. And some of it, look, on the defensive side of the ball, a lot of just pure effort difference. Effort and intensity in focus, Luca, especially. held a better one-on-one than he has at any point in the series rightly got called out after game three for some of his...

Brian Winhorse, truth teller. Brian Winhorse went after him. And also, you know, like the Mavs were pretty honest about it too. And they have been when Lucas had those stinker defensive games that he needs to be a participant in that effort. And when he does, it makes a world of difference. But offensively, I thought Dallas was off the charts. Some of that is just make or miss swings,

some things that hadn't been going for them over the first three games. And if you looked at the shot quality, data in those first three games, it suggested that this series was maybe closer than a three-o margin would tell you. But more than that, I thought they found ways to create real momentum against the switching defense. That's always the hardest thing against teams like Boston when they switch so much is how do you make your offense more than one star with the ball attacking?

How do you make it feel like more than that? And they were able to get downhill plays. They were able to get to their lobs. You're able to get to the kickout threes. That felt different. And I think they did some tactical things like slipping the screen. and playing with some of the pace you're talking about from guys like Kyrie, getting out in transition a little more.

That stuff felt real, if not, 100% replica ball all the time against a team as good as Boston. Yeah, PJ Washington, Derek Jones Jr., those guys felt more present. I don't know if they made as much of an impact or more of an impact than they had previously in the series. The big difference was obviously the big, the fact that lively just shot off the bench and looked like an all-MBA center again, looked like the guy from previously in these playoffs.

Gafford, he only played 10 minutes in that game. which is wild, but because Lively was playing so well, and then he came in and kind of clean things up. And there was a lot of garbage time, too. Yeah, he probably missed a late stint because of that. Totally. But that, to me, is the biggest difference if you're looking at the first three games versus the fourth game.

And so I have to wonder, like, how much is that a trickle down? Christop's effect. How much is that, frankly, Luca just smelling blood, realizing that Al is down. And I'll say this, Al hasn't been bad, this series, especially not in the way that he had been pretty, at least exposed earlier in the play. But it feels like maybe Luca just leaned on that disadvantage more than he had previously. Yeah, what I noticed is that when he would draw him out to the perimeter, he's like, okay, I know how to shake this guy, like actually get an advantage, get my shoulder ahead of him, and, you know, create an

advantage that way. And it feels like he was searching that matchup out. But like, do you guys think that they should be, I don't know, maybe scheming more Derek Lively corner threes? after game three. He made his first three of his career. He switched that thing. I was like, oh, my goodness.

I guess this is the Mavs night after all. If you'll allow me some sicko shit, Derek lively is in the chamber of players. He was like, that guy's going to be a shooter at some point. And if you've been watching him in warm-ups, over the course of the season, he's been taking those shots now. Granted, you watch any NBA center in warm-ups.

They will make all their threes. They look amazing. The question is always the poise, the rhythm, Like when the pressure is on you, can you hit it? First career three point make for Derek Leith. Like, congratulations, you're on the board. I would be very surprised next season, if that's not at least some element of his game. Totally.

It's not going to be a huge factor in this series, but you could see Boston edging toward him a little more and having to respect him in space a little more. Some of that was the three. Some of that was him slipping the screens, finding ways to be more active, finding ways to be involved beyond just having to hang out on the baseline. That stuff matters a great deal when you talk about how can Bob. Austin managed its defensive spacing and how can they respond in crowd Luca, it's always harder when you have to respect all these other guys on the floor because they're making themselves present. Yeah, it's going to be a huge difference for his career and probably next season for the Mavs if he's able to hit that with any degree of consistency or even take it with any degree

of consistency. I wonder for this series though. Like, did anything change? Like, is this repeatable to be able to maybe expose some of the lack of interior heft that the Celtics? Because I'll say this. Chris Stops, whenever he got in there, there was a jolt, not only on the offensive side, but defensively. He just has enough of like the interior force and verve or whatever you want to call it, that it really kind of makes a stark difference. There's a real like don't go in that water when he's out there. I think we talk more about the offensive piece because he came out hitting all of his shots against the switches and the mismatches. But if anything, I think his defense had a bigger impact on the actual series and on the battleground elements of it, you could see it.

You could see Luca and Kyrie exploiting the fact that Boston doesn't really have room protection outside of guys like Jalen Brown and Derek White who have to make long, tough rotations that are always going to look a little better in transition or in chaos than they are in a set half-court situation. So if Luca can just power through guys and get to the rim the way he was able to in game four, that changes a lot. Then all of a sudden it's not just whether your mid-rangers fall, it's not just whether the stepback three's hit on this night, and sometimes with Luca, they don't, sometimes with

Kyrie they don't. Now you have a reliable source of steady offense that can carry you through these games and that make it harder for Boston to make the sort of run that they did in game three, whereas you were alluding to was, by the end of the first quarter, even though the maps came out with a haymaker, the Celtics had gotten back up. It was basically, I think it was a one-point game at the end of the first quarter in game three, which was a huge win for them. But if you're getting to the rim all the time, those margins stretch out further and further. Yeah, and Justin used a beautiful word. Verve is just there.

Like, because not only is he providing that to turn in a half-core defense, he had like three chased down blocks. Like, so even in transition, Dallas is here in the footsteps. And it's like, those plays give the team such a just energy boost just because it's so spectacular and to just be missing. And look, Tillman has been like reasonably good. It's kind of crazy that he's been credible in this series. but there's just no replacing what Luca can do, excuse me, what Chris Staps can do on defense,

in half court and in transition and just like giving them the confidence to know that like, yo, we can take chances, more risks on the perimeter because we have Chris Staps or racing stuff. Like, I don't know. I think game three surprised me in that they were not able to exploit the non-Christaps of it all. Like they just didn't execute in a way that. that they needed to, I think in game four, they were just way more ready to exploit those problems. For instance, Al got into foul trouble,

Tillman comes in and the Mavs get back into like their hybrid zone, man, like defense that they've been playing all playoffs long, but they could not against these Chris Stabs lineups because it's like, bro, like we have to guard a freaking shooter at all times. Like with Tillman, it's like, all right, he's, we can sort of roam off of him, we can zone guys, we can funnel guys into,

areas of problems for them. It was different. Their defense just looked more like the team that got to the finals than the team that played Boston for three games. Definitely seemed like despite Tillman making a good effort, you know, he was moving his feet fairly well on the perimeter with Luca. I think it just made things a little bit easier for Luca in particular to target some guys because then other guys are helping a little bit more readily.

Things are in motion and that's when Luke is most dangerous when he's able to get those lobs and just hit guys that off of like encroaching defenses. We're assuming, as we record this, at 10.19 a.m. on Sunday that Christops is not going to play. Yeah. I feel like that's a safe assumption at this point. Yeah. Well, how are y'all operating as far as the Chris Staps go? There was a lot of media chatter around Game 4 because Joe Missoula alluded to the fact that there are very specific situations in which he will play Chris Staps.

Down 30 was not one of them. No, it was not. At no point in a game to win the championship, that you lost by 30, did you not see 50? There was no scenario that Chris Stapps would have made sense, Ralph? Well, I think the specific situation he's alluding to is Boston is about to win the title

and you put him in the game, like get him on the floor, let him be a part of it in some official capacity. That's kind of how I interpreted that. I would doubt very much, given what we know about the injury, given the way it's been talked about it, even in saying that he was willing to use Chris Debson's specific situations,

Joe Mazula said he's not there yet. Like he's not there to contribute in a meaningful way. I would be surprised if we see him play actual meaningful minutes. Did you watch his warm-up? I did. What did you think of it? I thought that was a dog and pony show. It felt like they were performing something for Dallas.

And there was some weirdness too as far as like he came out late for some of the layup lines. It was like he was officially available but was. doing a full kind of warm-up in the way that NBA players do. He wasn't on the bench at times. I think it was in the second half. He kind of disappeared from the bench for a bit, which, like, guys do that, especially when they have injuries. Like, there's some stiffness.

You want to work some stuff out. That's all fine. I just, I don't think he's, for one, let's say this, he's not going to be the guy who was getting chased down blocks. No. Can he be on the floor and spacing? I think you make him a huge target by putting him out there to the point that I just would be surprised if he plays any meaningful minutes from this.

point on. Getting O.G. Anobie flashbacks from that game seven? Big time. Well, I think the question then is, do you mess with the big rotation on the back end? Say maybe Tillman just isn't what you are hoping for. Do you break out the Luke Cornett like horn?

It's like the horn of Gondor. It's just like, and Luke Cornett comes out and he just does the Cornett contest for five minutes and you just hope for the best. Because at the very least, he gives you theoretical rim protection as opposed to Tillman, who's probably going to be moving a little bit. differently on the perimeter.

That would be the trade-off, but... I just think Tillman's better for the series than Luke Cornett is, and honestly, the other option would be. Yeah, well, that's the other option would be Berset. Or if you want to try the very, very small ball and just put another wing out there. Yeah, Tatum's been guarding your freaking center

all series anyway. By design. So, like, why not just play Tatum and Brown at center? Could do that. Hauser, the stopper comes out there. Well, that's the difference to me. If you're talking about, like, what could Boston do differently with its rotation?

I think it may be time to excise the Peyton Pritchard minutes other than maybe the sort of special teams buzzer-beater thing he has going on. The quick kick. I just don't think he's giving them anything. I think he's too much of a target for all the size reasons we described earlier. He's just not a good fit for this series. In the way that Howitzer can hang on the floor, Tillman can hang on the floor in spots and can hold down his spot.

I don't think Peyton Pritchard has a role to play here. Yeah. I think the question is, do you change anything? because as we've seen throughout this postseason, Joe Missoula is read a cent to do it. And if he does it, it tends to be more to favor size than ever smalling down, which I think we have talked about at length here and are disappointed in, but that's just the way things are. I would probably just chalk it up to the game, that game, and just be like, you know what, we just gave an absolute dog shit effort.

The Mavs came out, just playing with piss and vinegar, and let's just try it again and see what works. That's the advantage of being up three-o. but I think you could have the argument at the very least. They should have the agreement. I think there is an argument because outside of that spectacular third quarter, the last two games their offense has felt like it's been in the mud. A little off for sure. And I think going extremely small would get back to your five-out legitimate principles

that has basically taken the lid off of your offense all season. So yeah, I can't have press staps out there, meaning a guy that shoots out to 30 feet and rim protect. So I lose the rim protection element of it. I understand why you might be reticent to do it after you got bludgeoned on the offensive boards by Derek Clively. Seven offensive rebounds for Derek Lively in game fourth. Yeah.

That feels like a pretty huge vulnerability if you want to go fully small. And giving up offensive rebounds is one of those things that every single coach that's ever coached basketball absolutely hates. And so, like, I wonder if Joe Mazzula would be willing, you know, to do that. but I think it would be a solve for the offensive issues that they've been having. Anything on the Mavs side of things? You say, damn, that worked well. Let's just roll it back.

Yeah, I think for the most part, Jason Kidd did change his rotation a little bit. We saw less Jaden Hardy, more Dante Exum. I thought Exum played really well. Maybe his best game of the playoffs overall was hitting some shots. Is a factor defensively. I think that three-guard look with him and Kyrie and Luca on the floor has been a pretty good look for the Mavs all season. And so if you can find ways to get away with,

with his offense and his limitations, that can work really well in terms of the ball movement, in terms of the pace, in terms of what he gives you defensively. That kind of stuff matters. And Maxi Kleba looking better. You know, I'm as guilty as anyone, basically left him for dead on our last pod.

He gave them huge minutes. And so if those guys are producing and are reliable, that's a meaningful thing for Dallas. Will Tim Hardaway, Jr., buy himself actual court time again with making some threes in the fourth quarter? I guess we'll wait and see. you know, the Jason Kidd relationship with Tim Hardaway Jr. has always been one of note where he's kind of hung around in the rotation persistently

and maybe longer than some people would have liked. Maybe he gets another crack at this thing just because Dallas can use the spacing and use the offense at times. But overall, I think the Mavs are in a decent place with their rotation, with who is playing when they are making more sense in this series. It's going to come down to how healthy is Luka to continue to hard charge in this way? Is Kairi going to hit shots in ways that he has lately? but did not in games one and two.

And are you going to continue to get that effort from Derek lively where he can make himself a factor? That changed everything about what we saw in game four. More importantly, though, if Boston loses, who is going to be the media member to get them out of their slump, a la Winhorse for Luca? Are you stepping forward?

No, absolutely not. Or maybe there's sports radio guys down there. I hear they like to get pretty animated over there. Maybe they could just do this. the job collectively that Wendy did for Luca. Or Bill! Could be an option. Let's get him on the phone.

Bill Simmons to the courtesy phone. Yeah, I think it does start to get pretty tight if they lose the next game. This is kind of the one buffer. It gets serious again. This is, you know, like, we don't have the vested interest in the outcome of this series, but as someone who loves entertaining competitive basketball, ooh, a tight, a tight, pressurized game six would really be something to behold. is, you know, if anything, when we talk about the Celtics run,

there's been a lot of discussion about the quality of competition, about the Celtics being a historically dominant team by the margin. All of these conversations are kind of coming to a head now as Boston is one went away from the title. That's the sort of test that we love to see champions go through, is the crucible of now the stakes are super high in a series where if you lose a game six like that. And again, we're getting out of ourselves, given the game five hasn't even been played.

then all of a sudden things to start to unravel, your confidence starts to change in Wayne, maybe in the concepts of what you're running. Those are the moments we want. Is that sort of game six? What could the Celtics do on the road? But to get there, Dallas is going to have to have another exceptional game against a team that has a line of advantage,

that has a game playing advantage, to the point that I don't know that Boston should be changing all of that much, because they do, like by every indication we have, they should still win this series, and history would certainly tell us that they will. This feels like a challenge game for Luca, like a personal challenge game. The first one was a Brian Winhorse-induced challenge. This one's like, if you're going to be who we all think you are, like, can you psych yourself

up into thinking like you could turn this around? And so I do wonder, like, if you were just put your life on the line and say like one guy in the series I know could come in play and would step off and potentially swing this. Definitely. It would be Luca, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he just did it in a lot of ways. You know, like one win down 30 doesn't change everything.

But the kind of performance he had and the focus he played with is exactly what you would hope of a player of his caliber. Let me ask you this question. How many games do the Mavs need to win from here on out to consider Luca the favorite for finals MVP? I think they would have to get to seven. Really? See, I've talked myself into this being some weird American bullshit

where we have to reward the winner. That's right, yeah. Despite the fact that the most excellent player was not on the winning. To the victor goes to spoils. I feel like in honor of the great Jerry West, now would be the perfect time to reward. Because Luke has been the best player in the finals, right? This is not a country that valorizes losers of, say, like, civil wars and shit. Right?

Like, we don't do that here. When you lose, you lose. We only big up the winners here. You don't want a statue of Luca Donchich after the series? Are they going to put it in South Carolina? Look, if they actually go to seven games and Luca has been as much better than Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum as he's been, okay, I can consider it. If you're losing five or six games, man, like, come on, bro.

You are not the MVP of the finals. I'm sorry. Seven games and it's close And like again The margin has been so vast Between him and Tatum Him and Brown as well Then I start being like man

I don't know Maybe you should kind of consider it I was somebody who thought the LeBron thing In 2015 was preposterous And that we gave Egudalida award Because he guarded LeBron That's a clear signal that it won't happen I guess I'm arguing more should

Because I'm looking at the plus minus right now, Rob. Yeah. Luca plus 26 in the series. I mean, Lucas is really good. Jason, I don't know what to tell you.

Jason Tatum, minus 12. And we should say the Mavs have now swung the overall margin in the series have outscored the Celtics after their blowout. Funny things happen.

A small sample size. Yeah. Yeah, let's chill. But, because again, like, even the I godala thing, you know, where I'm hearing all of this stuff

about Drew Holiday and all of that. Like, it was like, LeBron was so good that he could have won MVP, but Iggy won it for guarding LeBron. For making him slightly worse than he might otherwise have been. It doesn't make sense. It makes no sense.

Like, the best players for Boston have been Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. Yes. One of them should win the MVP when they close this series out. I actually think your case might have gotten some momentum. if not for that game three. And specifically, here's the thing like, Luca is, one, the reason the mads are in the finals to begin with. Two, the reason they are competitive in any of these games at all.

And yet, he cost them a winnable situation in game three by fouling out in the way he did. And the way that the discourse kind of seized on that, given that this is going to be a bunch of media members voting for this award, I don't know that he would be rewarded in terms of like the rare exception of competitive, like, valor of a loser winning an NBA finals MVP because of stuff like that. So Wendy cost him the finals MVP in addition to galvanizing them to the win.

Luca making a bad business decision at the end of game three may have cost him a chance at the MVP. I think that's right. I think that's part of it. And, you know, like games like game four in a weird way only contribute to that conversation because he wasn't on the refs in game four. In the same way that during OKC for one brief shining moment, Luca decided, I think it was in game five,

that he was not going to argue with anybody over the course of the game, came out, played an incredible game, then came back in game six and started arguing with everyone all over again. So I guess we'll see how, uh, what his kind of overall demeanor is coming out for this next one. But as long as he's playing with the focus on the floor, and I think what's so weird about this is, it's now been going on for so long with Luca.

The other Mavs are open and public in talking about it. Wow. Kyrie talks about the focus when Luca isn't getting on the rest. Jason Kidd talks about him, need to do it less. Derek lively said after the game that he asked Luca, can you please just not argue with the rest for the first two times you get fouled? That was incremental change. Compromise. I like it.

But when you think about what it takes for the players on a team to call out their superstar publicly in this way, it has to be a massive thing. And it has been a massive thing. And the fact that that is so much part of Lucas' conversation, fair or not, factors into stuff like this. Dad, can you drink a six-pack instead of a 12 tonight? Please, we have company over. Don't embarrass me in front of my friends. No, but I think that's right.

He had to clean things up to get to the point in game four, and that whole thing will probably loom over him. And everyone will just say that Wendy did it. You know, Wendy is actually the finals MVP. No, no one is going to say that. It's worth Luca to get there. In fairness, credit to Luca for cleaning those things up. You never want to be in the position where you're making the mistakes

and have to correct them in the first place, but he corrected them in a huge and such a pointed way in game four. Do we think this goes longer than five? What do you think was? I don't see it. I kind of think five may be it. I think so too. They're going to be at home.

They're going to make some threes. They're going to be shot out of a cannon. The way like Dallas was for those first two games, the way they started those games, I just see Boston having that kind of energy and effort. And hopefully they don't do the Chris Stabs like pump fake, distraction. It's just like, all right, it's us. This is the team that got to the finals, dominated the entire Eastern Conference playoffs, won the first three games of this season, looked way better than this team for three games.

Like they didn't look like peers for three games. And so I just find it hard. I just can't see them letting this thing leave Boston tomorrow night. But, you know, crazier things have happened. And as my man Kevin Pelton has pointed out, at some point somebody's going to do this. Yeah. I just don't think it's this particular team in this particular series. Sure.

And the Celtics have also had this moment a couple times in the playoffs already. against lower stakes competition where they just haven't had the kind of effort they needed in a random game in the middle of a series and if you're already up 3-0 that's probably the most forgivable situation to do it, albeit on the final stage.

So I fully expect them to come out with a completely renewed focus with probably some CRISPR offense. I think there's some stuff for them to work even against that hybrid man in zone. They weren't. They just didn't attack them in the ways that was so obvious

that they should. in game four. I think they'll be way smarter about that. They also got shaken out of their shots in ways that I think a film session will help settle. You could see, you know, as the lead started building, guys passing up good threes

to try to make something happen with like six seconds left on the shot clock and then they would get caught, those shots, I think, go up in game five to the Celtics benefit. Like you have to stick with the system and the approach that brought you here because it's the same thing

that's going to overwhelm a team like Dallas. All right. So before finals game four, we had a little bit of a situation. We did. Breaking out on the ESPN booth. One Joel in Bid happened to show up next to Paul George, next to Michael Wilbon, next to Malika Andrews, next to Stephen A. Smith. And someone else was also there, I think was Perk.

So one, really funny. Just to have him there. He did this for, what, the Premier League, I think, and then just decided to do it again. He showed up to Champions League. That's right. That's right. Two, I think this is funny just because of all the free agency-related stuff with Paul George, and we can get into that.

But three, the best part about this all is the story that Tim Bond-Temp's told on the Hoop Collective podcast the other day, that he was actually the conduit to get in Bede on the dance. Can I share some backstory about Tim Bontemps' story? Yes, I love this. Back story to the backstory. So I'm waiting for the media elevator, like, get up to my seat, and I scan down the hall and like, wow, Joel and B's here, that's

so weird. Like, he just kind of snuck in through like the back part of the building and I see Bontemp's sidle in. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, this is, this is interesting, you know, a little chatter about free agency. They absolutely have a rapport. Like, Bon Tempts has done a great job like covering the Sixers. I'm like, man, that's so funny. And so

to hear all of these things come together and that that, you know, I witnessed a moment in NBA tampering history of setting up Joel and Bid to go on the show to shoot the side eye scene around the world at Paul George. What a moment. So your backstory is that you saw two people talking. That's all I got. I like that. You sold it well. But later in context, it was like, oh, that actually was something. That actually was, you know, a brokering of a kind. Come on, come on the show. So one, it was such a crazy conversation.

and between Embed and Stephen A and the panel because it obviously wasn't planned. Joel didn't have prepared remarks. He was just like, I'm watching this team hoop. I'm like, if we're healthy, I feel like we could beat these guys. And he said, I hate Boston, which I appreciated. I was like, I like to hear players talk that way. But my favorite part is Paul George did not know this was going to happen.

And he was very sheepishly just sinking into his scene. He's very uncomfortable. This is freaking crazy right now. Yes. I love that. It was like a real human moment on TV, captured live. That was dope. It was a crash course for if they're going to be teammates

because Joal is going to put everyone around him into uncomfortable positions, including saying, hopefully this off season we find a way to get better and then literally side-eyeing him. That's what I'm going to do to Kyle Mann at the live show. Hey, man. That was really compelling tell us.

I love just the idea that Stephen A was like, yo, man, like, you know, you should be angry about not being here and all of that. And Joelle was like, look, I'm a competitive guy. Like, I feel like we're that one step closer. We're going to get one step closer this offseason. Like, that was just dope to just witness that. But yeah, Paul George, just an absolute, like, wow, I can't believe this is happening. Although I'm sure his agent was like, this is fantastic. Oh, my God.

It also felt like a flashback moment. to when Magic was on Kimmel, weirdly enough, talking about Paul George and what would happen if he ran into him in the offseason and would he try to then recruit him to the Lakers and did the like, I wouldn't say come to the Lakers, but I'm going to do like the wink, wink, exaggerated, like, please, please come sign with us. All we needed in that moment, apparently, was Paul George sitting on the couch next to him and the way that he was on the set with you all and beat. It's great NBA theater. Like, you can't script this shit. I was, I was actually at the game where Magic quit.

his job at Staples. I was actually there. And that was probably in my career, the most surreal moment where people were like, yo, Magic just called an impromptu press conference, which he just held in the hallway. He didn't commission a room and nothing like that. He was just like, yo, I got something to say. Then he, you know, that famous, all the memes came out of that. I'm not going to be here.

That, like, it's just fantastic. And, like, this reminded me of that. It's just, I love this because this is the first. moment of the off season, I feel like we're getting, and this was an inappropriate one. Yeah. The off season has officially begun? Yeah, I think so. Justin's like, let's go.

Let's go. I also think, like, this is the situation you've got to watch. Not only Paul George, because before this even happened, there are rumors like, oh, they're farther apart with the clippers. We'll see about that. That seems pretty planted. But I can't remember a time. People plant stories in the press?

Definitely not. I've never seen that. I can't remember a time. in which a superstar in his prime had as much opportunity to completely blank slate your roster and build a new one in the way that the Sixers have this offseason. And now, as two senior writers in front of me, you know how anxiety-inducing a blank page with the cursor is. Tell me about it, brother. There are clearly a lot of stuff that needs to happen because they need to get this right.

But I can't remember, like, pretty much Big Three Heat was the only thing I getting close to this where, like, they can put a whole new team together. We could talk about, like, who should be there. But Paul George, I got to say, we look pretty damn good in Philly. Be a great fit. I would be very intrigued by that. And I also say, like, the points Embed made about the Celtics and, like, the CBA, like, potentially, like, limiting their pathway here.

Thought they were pretty salient. And it also correct. Right. Like, they can't. Welcome to Joel's TED talk about the CBA. They can't afford to pay five guys $40 million. Like at a certain point Like Derek White's gonna be like

All right Drew Holliday's getting 35 a year This off season I mean that was the report from Oge That he might be eyeing an extension already Like you know what you sound like right now was Bit of an apron pussy Oh You know

Look look look look If the Celtics actually do that Then more power to them right If they say damn it I don't care We're kind of deep enough right now where we don't need add-ons. We can just do draft picks and whatever, veterans minimum, ring chaser types. Like, if they decide that they don't need the flexibility of the full mid-level, et cetera, et cetera,

then they could do that. It just seems like the owners put this in specifically so that none of them do. Yeah. Like, that's what it feels like to me. So, you know, he made some great points. And I'll just to get back on the Sixers, I don't want to say I've soured on Darrow Morey. I just think his like over exposure in the media has like, you know, kind of ran me like ragged. However, he does have an earned reputation of being one of the most prepared in terms of like different scenarios and contingencies.

Like, I'm sure this dude has a myriad of possibilities that he's planned for. And I just can't wait to see how this thing actually shakes out. And I think that's why you see so many different rumors involving the Sixers. It's not just Paul George, it's connections to Jimmy Butler, a player who Darrell Moore tried to acquire to put with James Hardin and Chris Paul in Houston once upon a time. It's, you know, some noise about LeBron. Even though that was out in brand for seasons, it's fine.

We're going to leave that entirely in a separate compartment. But, like, they're in a position to make those sorts of interesting pitches to say, like, come play with not only Joelle and Bede, but Tyrese maxi to have this blank slate situation. And in a lot of ways, this is the flip side of not making the deadline move that the Sixers could have. Like, they could have made themselves meaningfully better this season, and maybe they should have, given the fact that Joelle did come back,

didn't look entirely himself, didn't look great at the end of some of those games, but did come back. Maybe things could have been totally different for Philly if they had made a swing for a significant player at the deadline. But when you don't do that, you get to play the blank slate, and you get to make these gestures to Paul George, and you get to explore all of these contingencies that you have mapped out. And that's a pretty exciting place to be.

Yeah, I think they have to feel pretty good that the opportunity cost wasn't all that much at the deadline. Because you look at the guys who ended up moving. It was Siakum, not a great fit, right? For them, yeah. Not the best fit, no. And then O.G. and Obie would have been great. Excellent fit. But still could be an excellent fit, we should say.

Technically. But obviously injured. Yeah. He has been injured throughout his Toronto run, especially most recently. Hardin couldn't. You let them go. No. So, like, there really wasn't anyone that probably swung things so much for them now,

but they have a world of opportunity. Who that might be is obviously a big honking question. If it's not George, it doesn't seem like it's going to be Domin and Mitchell. He seems like he's destined to stay in Cleveland. So who is it? I don't know, but I do think Mori's bet tends to be on that something will happen, that stars will get disgruntled, that situations will blow up. And so they'll probably find someone.

Brandon Ingram, another guy we should probably talk about. So there are options. Paul George, again, he keeps coming up because he's a free agent, but also the summer that he moved to the Clippers, he was not on everybody's board as this guy that's destined to move that summer. It was out of nowhere. It was just like, yo, Kauai Leonard signs with the Clippers and they trade for Paul George. So, like, there might be somebody on the block who we're not even anticipating right now as being such. And so that's, you know, that's why fans get really excited about the offseason because there are all of these possibilities to, to reshape and reimagine your roster.

And if anything, I think the shape of these Eastern Conference playoffs suit the Sixers very well, right? Boston is going to be here, apron or not, going to be a very successful and probably pretty dominant team for a good stretch here if they choose to kind of keep all these guys together. Other than that, there's been a string of injuries, but also a string of kind of exposures as far as some of these other team's vulnerabilities. And there's no one else you look at.

I would say maybe the Knicks are the one exception to this as saying, Okay, that's a pretty complete team when healthy. I just heard like 80 Nick fans yelling at me just now. A fair caveat given the fact that they were so hurt. But Milwaukee has a ton to figure out. Indiana has a fair bit of growing up to do. There's nobody, if you're the Sixers, who you look around and say, like, that team is definitively better than us in terms of getting at least to the conference finals.

Yeah. Unless you think that Clay Thompson will put the young Orlando magic over the top. I do not. Yeah, I don't either. But that's the next guy we should probably talk about. here who in one fell swoop just washed away his history with the Warriors, at least on Instagram, which is a weird thing to say as a 36-year-old man talking about someone's Instagram behavior, but clearly made a decision to just like kind of wipe away all

indication of his past with the Warriors. I think the thing that's most notable is that Draymond got a hold of this and was, didn't really put his light touch on the situation. First of all, just got on the podcast, Mike, within a day. Just fired it up. Yeah, which as a podcast, I have to say, is not always easy with all the logistics going around here. That's true. That's true.

You've got to get into the studio. So I appreciate that. This is Draymond's specific quote. I think that's comical referring to Clay's Instagram, wiping, whatever you want to call it. I know you all would be wanting like somebody's feelings to be hurt or something. It ain't that. It's never going to be that.

That's hilarious. So just a coincidence. Guys. It's called archiving on Instagram. Like, he didn't physically delete these pictures. He's archived them. And if negotiations go as he would like, he can just put the pictures back. He can do this.

I honestly didn't know this. I feel like this is spoken from a place of experience. Well, I've never put nothing back on my timeline that I've archived. But you've gone. It's gone forever. See, you've done the cleanse. Oh, I've pulled. Oh, yes.

I've had to pull in the past. But what I'm saying is like he can put it back if things go the way they need to. And I think what Draymond is speaking to is like you don't win four championships together, you know, go to all these finals, have all these incredible runs as a team achieve all of this crazy success. And Instagram deletion, you know, erase that actual history. I think that's what Draymond is trying to say. Doesn't change the history. And almost in all these cases rarely ever change the relationship.

among the players themselves. Those guys are pretty bonded for life when you go through an experience like that. Sephora Ray Allen with the Blue Tse Celtics. Sure. That's, I mean, very thorny situation in a lot of ways. But for Clay, like, look,

the shape of Golden State's front office has changed a lot. You know, like, this isn't Bob Myers anymore, right? This is a different group than he has dealt with for the majority of his career. Sure, there are a lot of entrenched people there, including Steve Kerr and Joe Lake, among other people. But the situation for the Warriors has changed. And so I think that's why we're,

we're seeing these discussions and fall the way they are. It doesn't surprise me one bit that there's a bit of a disconnect between what Clay wants and what the Warriors may want from him and the kind of, not only financial like accommodations they would want a contract, but even the sort of role they would want him playing going forward. This is where you go. Inevitably with this sort of like dynastic run is you got to make really hard, cold decisions about the emotional centers of your franchise for years and years and years. I think the Warriors probably are making the right decision.

if they do decide to cut clay loose, if the money, they can't come to terms on some sort of middle ground there. If only because, like, I just think you don't want to be paying clay long term. Jordan pool money? For what? Do that again?

I think they've gotten themselves into trouble by maybe being too, well, for one, for walking the line between two timelines, but maybe being too beholden to, like, all of the past. I mean, dream on first and foremost. I think they probably still give him the contract they gave him last awesome

because he's such a good player. but like all it did was emboldened him to be the poorest possible version of himself. This is true. I just, I don't want to go too far in that direction because they won a title by being beholden to the past literally two years ago. Yes. True. So like we're not far enough removed from that where I think we should challenge the legitimacy of all of that approach.

If anything, the past over, sorry, yeah, the kind of being beholden to the past overwhelming the other timeline is what got them another championship. Yeah. I think everything post the title has just been messy. Very. It's really the punch that spawned a thousand podcast segments, like, including many of Dremonts, it seems like, I'll just say it's not like the best look if Clay was trying to send a message, a direct message. And Dremont being like, that's hilarious. Like, this doesn't bother me at all. Like, at least just be like, oh, man, I want him to stay.

I've loved being on his boat for so many years. Just give me like some sentiment about it. Don't just be like, fuck this guy's not on my team anymore. this is why most guys don't comment and this is why a lot of active players don't have podcasts. Yeah, they don't have the words. And Draymond doesn't either, but he still speaks.

So we'll see. I would have liked if the magic are going to make a swing, it to be someone with a little bit more of a pathway, a runway, to go and build with them to grow up with the Palos and the Wagner's, but if that's who they end up getting, obviously, they need as much

shooting as humanly possible on that team. So we'll see. Last one I have on the docket here just the fact that LeBron, amid so much Laker noise and just news stories, just very quiet. LeBron doesn't typically speak or send cryptic tweets or stuff like that when major shakeups are happening around his organization. That's not something he doesn't tell people to fit out and fit in or anything like that. He's a tweet like, I love Shabazz Napier. Yeah, he doesn't do those kinds of things. I don't know.

I don't know. No, but the thing is, though, but he does have a lot of stuff on the burner, right? Like, there's the stuff with Brony where if you're going to listen to the rumors is that he's telling team, he's like pitching teams on the idea that like draft a kid in the second round,

pick me up, like, it'll be great. That's what he's told teams he would like to see happen. Some people seem to think the Lakers are locked in on scooping them up at 55, which I know it looks, bad on a sort of nepotism level. However, if you go out and look at who's been drafted, 55, and Pat, like, it's basically not NBA players. So it's not like they're giving up the chance at, like, a real person by taking Bronny James, who, you know, quite famously average four-pointe

game. I just don't think the question is at 55. I think the question is, is somebody going to take a swing significantly higher than that? Yeah. I don't think. I don't think. I don't think. I I don't think that's going to happen. I think for the same reason. I think you can make the same argument in a lot of drafts, especially one that doesn't seem super highly regarded by people who are plugged in this stuff. If the 35th pick is not so great in this draft.

That seems crazy to me. If you're a team that maybe has a plausible case to LeBron for geographic or other reasons. Oh, that's different. Could you swing into even the first round and say, you know what? We're willing to accept a certain amount of loss for this sort of potential upside. About time. I don't think anyone should do it.

I think what this is, is this is the evolution of the father of a prospect or active player. You know, the Tim Hardaway seniors, the Michael Thompson. We've had to deal with the sort of like chatter that comes with these guys commenting on their son's active careers, but never when they are also in the league at the same time and also one of the, you know, 10 to 15 best players in the league at that point in time. It's going to be wild. It's going to be wild having a league that Brani James is, he's going to be in the NBA. I feel very confident about that.

He's going to be part of an organization. Yes. Will he be playing in NBA games? I mean, that's a much different question. I could see him being somebody... Two balls. Yeah, G-League affiliate, for sure. And you get the diplomatic cover of like,

no, he's developing there. That's what the league is for. He's like honing, he's like, you know, sharpening his tools there. But playing in the NBA next year? I just think he's going to have a real roster spot. I don't think it's going to be a two-way. I think someone is going to give Ronnie James a real roster spot.

I do think, what happened to my league? You were just pro-nepidism a second ago. I think the message out there right now is very clear that they want him on a team, not on a two-way contract. And I also think it's not a coincidence that he isn't doing a lot of workouts for teams other than the Sons and the Lakers, probably because they have agreed to that setup.

Right? And just to be clear, yes, this is more an extreme version of this, but agents and players do this all the time. Yes. So I don't draft my guy in the second round because I don't want to be beholden to a contract scale. I actually want to go and work my way into a roster. It happens every year. Yes.

So this isn't unique to that. Although I do think this being Father's Days is an appropriate Father's Day conversation. You're talking about the effect of nepotism on today's NBA here. Sure. It was surreal seeing Brony in the Lakers' warm of Jersey. And that might be our reality sooner than later. So, like, all in, like, from the people that I've talked to, I'm not going to pretend I've made, like, a thousand phone calls on this,

but I've talked to a couple people about it. And it seems like Bron is going back to the Lakers, and the Lakers are going to bring Bronte in it. That, like, basically feels like what is inevitably going to happen. And again, like, this kid is the 15th man or whatever. Like, I don't know why that's such a big deal. I'm not going to get sentimental about the father and the son on the same thing. Like, that does nothing for me, honestly.

But I'm also not like, oh, this is absurd. How could LeBron get his way this way? Like, you know, the narcissist Ante Dacompo exists. Okay. What do you bring it to this for? What's the difference, honestly? In my opinion, what's the difference? J.R. Smith's brother.

Oh, yeah. J.R. Swish. Went to Summerlee with the Knicks five straight years. Yeah. Like, these guys are all around the NBA, so it isn't just the LeBron situation. It's just amplified because everything LeBron does is amplified. I mean, I kind of do think the father-son thing is kind of cool. It's a little neat, I got to say.

It has like a Griffey vibe to it. Griffey Sr. Yeah, absolutely. Griffey Jr. Yeah, it's just the roll-up, the rollout for it has been so freaking extended. It's basically since Bronny's in, like, eighth grade. Yeah. That's what I'm kind of, like, exhausted by.

But I'm sure when I see it and, like, like, like maybe he throws an alley-up to LeBron in the preseason and I'll probably get some feels but like you know in the in the sort of backroom political maneuvering build up to it that leaves me a little bit cold but this is what you do if you're LeBron in the same way that Dan Hurley flexed a certain amount of like leverage and privilege in his position to get what he called a different level of commitment at his current spot if you're LeBron, why wouldn't you do this, I think is my point. Why wouldn't you do this? This is shaping up for LeBron's path back. I think that's the kind of takeaway here. It just seems like things are

aligning that LeBron is getting his way to the point where like the Shabazz Napier's thing, notwithstanding would be pretty weird if he just walked away from it. If they hired J.J. Reddick as their coach, if Brony is drafted and he's like, see ya, I'm going to go play with Joel and Bede because I just want to go chase titles in that. It just doesn't align with what we know about him and everything up to this point. And so, yeah, I'm rolling it back in Lakerland. But you would be gleeful. If that's what happened.

If he went to Philly? If all of this happened, Brony gets drafted by the Lakers, they hired J.J. Reddick and LeBron pieces out, I would open up a Zoom window one morning and you would just be beaming into the screen. It would be great to talk about. I'll say that. It's great for the group chat podcast, which is all that matters. Yes.

I am still of the belief that the Lakers aren't 100% dead. I think that there is a pathway for them to being competitive in the West next year. I don't know if they'll vault back into the finals. I would love that as a story. LeBron, late career, getting back into the finals. You're going for it one last time. I do think, like, if they swing a star trade, that would be nice. But it also seems like that's also counterinteger LeBron's wishes.

He's talking about, like, building up role players, like, for instance, Alex Caruso and Contavia's Colwell Pope. So they've been a playing team. But they really won that. one game against the negative. They did make the West finals two years ago.

They did. I don't want to take everything away from them. It's just like, what a twist of the knife for the Celtics these last few days. They get blown out in one of the most lopsided

finals games ever, and then we dedicate like half of this podcast to the Lakers. Extremely tough. What else did you want to talk about? No, I'm not judging your editorial decisions.

I'm just saying this is... Do you want to toss around some ideas, like, for some extra segments? What do you have in mind? There are no way. I've been waiting this entire year for you to come up with

I would prefer to sit here and comment upon what you decide. Oh, yeah, thanks, yeah. That's what we do in the media. Beautiful. Why don't we wrap it there? Remember, live show Tuesday. June 18th, Elray Theater in Los Angeles, 8 p.m., get your tickets now while they're still going.

We'll be there live on stage. That will be our podcast rather than the typical Wednesday one. Kyle Mann, Chris Ryan. So check us out then live in person. and I think it will obviously be on some of the ringer channels, the YouTube, the Spotify's, and the like. Thank you to Eddie Ocampo. Thank you to talk for Cash and thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll see you next time.