The Ringer NBA Show - Dillon Brooks–Klay Thompson Trash Talk, Michael Jordan’s Time in the Front Office, and ‘Snowfall’ | Real Ones

Episode Date: March 20, 2023

Logan and Raja are back to discuss the recent back-and-forth between Dillon Brooks and Klay Thompson and the significance of a team enforcer (3:00). Next, they briefly talk about Michael Jordan as a front office executive (33:46). Later, Kerm joins the guys for ‘Snowfall’ talk (40:56). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's no secret the NFL has a problem with race. Think Colin Kaepernick. Think Brian Flores. But this isn't a new problem. It's one that started as far back as the 1930s, with a ban on black players in the NFL, with a past that informs the present. Blackballed is a new miniseries podcast from The Ringer,

about the four men who broke the color barrier in football. I'm your host, Chelsea Stark Jones. BlackBald is dropping soon on the Ringer NFL feed. What are what up? This is Logan Murdoch from Real Ones. Just want to give you guys a quick disclaimer. Today's episode had some technical difficulties and we had to use the Zoom audio on Raja's sound.

Still a great episode. Still a lot of vibes. Great stories. But I just want to give you guys that disclaimer. Real ones up next. What's popping? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here in Civilization.

Raja Bell, live from the Keys. How you doing, Rajah? I'm good. You know, technical difficulties. Obviously, when you're doing it, some of 46 plus years old, but I think we got to figure it out. We got seven kids from the ages of 15 to 6 running around in bed. We're going good.

Roger, you guys can't see this, but Roger is sitting at a table right now. A table full of delightful kids treats. In the background, I'm looking right now, he has a lot of vegetation and a lot of nice floral arrangements that only Florida can provide. It's looking really nice. outside. Raja, how is it being a dad at this point before we get to

NBA talk? Are you locked in? What stage of dad-ism are you at right now? So we're in this weird, we're just like weird, being a dad is great first and foremost. It's the best thing. Gang, gang, straight up,

or than we've ever done. But my point being, we're in this weird spot of having 15, 14, you kind of, you know, do their own thing, my 15-year-old drives, like, they've got their own little worlds and so typically when your kids get to that age and then my younger one's about 11, my younger boy,

so they can all kind of go do their thing but we got this six year old little mama that's always attached to my wife. So we're kind of straddling like having some time to go do some shit on our own because older ones are kind of self-sufficient but also now we got the six year old little one who's precious but she requires a lot

at this point. So it's great and we're kind of in between those two worlds. You're like the Golden State Warriors. There's two timelines and one that you're just trying to figure it out, right? Is that what we're at? God, I so appreciate you. That was so well done. No, man, but as you guys see, bro, we're on vacation.

So this is going to be a shorter episode than normal. Just FYI for you guys. One thing I want to get into, so Dylan Brooks, who we've talked about for a long time, probably like, this is Dylan Brooks podcast at this point. But I just wanted to pick your brain really quickly on his, interaction with Clay Thompson and Clay Thompson telling him the Four Rings talk. And on one hand, I understand Clay. But I think it speaks to a larger issue that the Warriors at this point are washed. And now that they're doing the thing that LeBron is doing now where they're like, yeah,

remember what I used to do instead of a myriad of losses is where this is happening. What did you think about that point when Clay did that? And what does that say about where the overall stance of the warriors and how they look in these streets? I felt Clay Thompson a little bit. Like, I get it, man. Like, you're very accomplished. You guys were the big cats. Not that long ago.

I mean, you won it last year. So you kind of hold on to like, we can do that whenever we want or we can pop back into that mode. So I kind of feel him, the frustration, the probably the embarrassment of Dylan Brooks just serving you guys. and end just steady stream of shit coming out of his mouth while he does it. Leave Dylan Brooks alone. I can't speak for the whole NBA.

Okay? I'm not sitting here telling you that Dylan Brooks is kryptonite for any other team in the league. But as it pertains to Golden State, leave him beat. Don't leave Dylan Brooks alone, man. Dylan Brooks is there for all of it. And y'all ain't got no real answers for Memphis right now. So let him live. Who are the guys that, because Dylan Brooks, I feel like, goes into this category.

He's not an all-star. He has a long career. Maybe he'll be an all-star at some point. But who were the guys that you played against that as we might not, as fans or media, just think of them as like one of the best guards or one of the best scorers or one of these things? But like, he's going to get cooking and you better not talk to him. Like, who are them guys that fit the Dylan Brooks type mole back in your day or back in the days when you played? And how do you how do you beat that ultimately when he's in your head and he's just fucking,

he only has buckets for you? I'm not sure. That's a tough question, Logan, because I didn't guard the Dylan Brooks types of players usually. Like I guarded the steffs and the clays. So anybody I guarded typically could cook. You know, so it wasn't like a random dude. I didn't have that assignment where you were like, hey, Raj, you might have. a night off. Oh shit, no, you don't. He's cooking now. My nights were always the best player

on the, offensively usually on your wing or in your back court. But there were a lot of guys that, and this is, I think, bigger picture in the point that I'd make all the time on his pot is, while Bill and Brooks may be a little better than the guy that I normally talk about, there are a lot of duge in the NBA that can get buckets, can play, given opportunity, can step in and be the villain in a story like that, you know? And so, I mean, shit, I'm drawing a blank as to names off the top of my head, but you could easily find them. They're littered across the NBA.

Like, I played that role in some regards. Like, who would have thought in game seven against Milwaukee in the Eastern Conference finals in 2001 that a dude on a 10-day would come in five minutes and score, 11 quick points to spark the six. Like, you know what I mean? Like no one would see that coming. So I hate to use myself, but I have to because I can't really think anyone else. But it happens all the time.

Do you ever like when you're in the league, do you ever, what is the Rajabelle guy? It feels like you see a lot of guys like this and yourself when you played. What is it like when you see that? And what are those type of guys look like? Because it was just hell of funny how you said that, right? Where you're like, yo, you know, fuck. don't know what a Dillard Brooks is like, man, I'm not sure. Wait, I was that one time.

And that's a recurring theme in the real ones pod. Look, look, I think that, again, if, you know, I'd be, I'm very grateful for the career that I had and, you know, the way I'm portrayed as, like, this great defender. And even though I'm not sure that I was that, like, I was a good defender, I tried my ass off, but people portray me like, like that. And so while that's very flattering and stuff, like I thought of myself as more than that. You know, like I was a really good shooter once they started letting me shoot. You know, I shot over 40% from a career for three.

Like I led the league in three's made in a season. You know, I average 15 points a game as the third and fourth option on teams. And so I think this isn't, I'm sorry as it's coming off about me, but what I'm trying to answer your question is guys that don't get credit for being more than this one thing and have this hunger in them to kind of bust out of that mold. Those are the type of dudes that I frequently gravitate towards, right? Where, like, I don't just see myself as a defendant. Like, I don't just see myself as Dylan Brooks as an irritant that, you know,

is a shit-talker. Like, I could come out here and cook you and give you buckets. Like, don't put me in that box. And so I think that Dylan Brooks is of the world, like there are other guys, you know, scattered around the NBA, and they've always existed and they always will exist, of not stars, not superstars, for sure, definitely not stars, but, you know, this middle tier of player that feels like they can really

contribute to winning in a lot of different ways, but for one reason or another, they're kind of put in this box and everyone wants to label them as that. And when they step out of that box and they contribute to winning and then they're popping their shit, I'm here for it. How important, though, like, because, I've come around, full transparency, I've kind of come around on Dylan Brooks over the last couple of weeks.

I was like, I was really just, I was like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, after that, after that, what he was saying about Drave? I'm like, what are you doing,

bro? But like, he is living every one of his raps over the last couple of weeks, right? And like, I guess my overall question is, and I think this to be true, I think that Dylan Brooks,

if he could, you know, maybe pass the ball to Jha when he's on the team, when he, when Jai comes back, right? And like, not always take on the offense on his own

when he doesn't have to. You know, I think that they could be good. But I think, like, he is very vital for that team for years to come in terms of you need a guy that is not your star player to not be scared. You know, like, Draymond fit that mold a few years back, right? Where, like, where you need those type of guys to be the heartbeat of the team sometimes, right? Is that fair? It's absolutely fair.

And look, I had a problem with Rick Dillon was saying, specifically about Dremont and Dremont's game. I thought that was unfair to Dremont. I thought that was completely diminishing who Dremont was as a player and what he's achieved and what he's meant to a team that's achieved the whole lot. Like I thought that was out of pocket. But in terms of Dylan Brooks, you know, and who he is in terms of shit talking and getting himself motivated like that,

the only beef I have with it is when it becomes distracting to the team, and when your team has so much of it and you're doing it all before you've really accomplished anything. But he is living his rap. He is out here producing and some dudes need that type of energy. Like they need to be the villain or paint themselves into that villain corner to have the juice on a nightly basis. And so if that's what he needs, I'm not begrudging him that.

I think that a lot of teams need the guy that you're talking about, Logan. And a lot of the players that I kind of talked about in the question before, wind up becoming that to a team. They are your on a night where everyone's tired and it'd be easy to just get back on the plane and go home. They are your guy that gets into just enough shit to get everybody like, yeah, wait, what the fuck's going on? Hold up. Hold up now.

Let's go. Okay, let's get, let's play. You know, they become the dude that if you run up on the team's best player, you know, he's like, yo, we're not here for that. And you know, my buddy, it's funny. My buddy Gene always said this. Like he played with me at Florida International University. And he'd always say, yo, man, like every NBA team, every star has to have, like,

an enforcer with him. He was like, it's every star has to have an enforcer. And I never really thought of the enforcer role like hockey, but, and they don't let you fight and scrap. But the guy you're talking about, the Dylan Brooks of the world, he becomes that in any situation where someone is running a foul of that star. Like, he ain't, he's not with it. and lets the team know that we're not with it.

A lot of NBA players, it's not like football, where you grow up hitting people in the mouth for a living, and you love the contact, and you just hear to crack each other. Like, that's not the case. And so while some NBA players do like the contact and aren't physical, there is a whole lot of them that want to play in tuxedos. You see them crying every fucking night.

You see them out there whining and crying. I get the Frito line 25 times, and if they don't get there 30 times, they're still crying. Yeah. But for every one of those, there's got to be a dude somewhere on that bench that if somebody can ruffle his feathers and get under his skin, that dude off the bench comes in and lets everyone in the arena know that we're not here for that. Listen, you look at like the last few champions, right? Obviously, last year, Warriors have Jermon Green. The year before that, Milwaukee has fucking Bobby Portis, right?

Miami Heat, when I think about, you know, them in their glory days had big Udinas Haslam who not going for that shit, right? Right. Even when, even when Eudanus is on the bench, like, even in his later years, you know you still don't want to fuck with him. Right. And like, historically, Mike had Charles Oakley at a point in time, right? And, you know, had the rest, had enforced, had enforcement. You need that not only because, you know, it's not because also the star player can't be about that life. It's more so because the star player is kind of too valuable. for him to just be popping off at the mouth all the time. You can't, you can't. He has to be above the fray. And so you take that, like, I'm sure you were that way with Steve, right? Like, how was, like, when you were, when you were, that's weird, because we were talking

about this with JTA with Steph, like a few years ago, right? You were kind of like that with Steve. Did you consciously know, like, yo, man, Steve can't do this. He can't get this technical file. Or maybe that's just not in this DNA to just be like talking hell of shit. I have to, me, tricks, me tricks, or, like, the rest of the guys have to, like, yo, step in if some shit pop off with Steve? I wasn't super conscious of protecting Steve or protecting Steve from technical fouls.

What typically happens is, you know, if you're being true to yourself, like, I come from a place and from a basketball place where I'm not taking anything. Like, I was raised under the, like, you got to fight me to get my lunch money. Like, this is, this is mine. And everything I did on a basketball court. was in that model. Like, I can't give you anything. If you take it from me, cool, but then you got to see me again tomorrow.

So we're going to do this until, you know, you get sick of this. And so what happens is like you take that out under the court and you see your team as your family. So when somebody starts messing with somebody in your family, I mean, you got to let them know that we aren't for that. Now it's not just about me not being with that. Like the team that I currently play on, my brothers and my coaches and whoever that is, like, we are not for that. And so, you know, like when something happens to a Steve or tricks or someone like that, whether they want to be in it or not, the people on the team that that fit that mode usually step in and say, hey, man, like, you know, and the thing is NBA dudes know who who gets down like that and who doesn't get down like that. Can you dig what I'm saying? And so, like, we all see them outside too.

Like you guys see them not just in the arena. Y'all know them as people. Yeah, but like let's use Steve, for example. Like, everybody that we play knows. Steve don't be out there talking a lot of shit. He's not out there throwing chief shots or doing anything like that. He's just cooking. You know what I mean?

And so, you know, you running up on Steve in any real capacity, Logan, there's a code to that, right? Like, Steve is not in the game like that. Like, he's not there for that type of shit. So don't run up on Steve. You know, and if you do, then you probably are, if a team has, you know, the right support around Steve, you're going to have to deal with somebody who is more in the game like that.

And that's just a way of work. What about a, like, I think about another good example. I think about the 0-1-6ers, right, as an example of this, because when I look at that roster, honestly, one of my favorite rosters is to watch, right? You got, you, well, you towards the end of the season, so it might be a bad example because you came during the postseason. but like Matumbo, right? You got George Lynch, who not taking no else at all.

He's not. And you got, you know, you got Aaron McKee who's from Philly. He's not taking no else. Like, what was it like to, like, because Ivers is a guy that talked a bit more shit than Steve Nash to refs, right? How do you make sure you defend AI who is also with the shits too? And like, make sure that you are making sure he is good as a superstar. That wasn't my job.

that point. Like, I was, I was a spectator more than a participant. But I think that that team more than any other team that I played on in the NBA was, was cut from a lot of guys because of the way you had to build a team around AI. Yeah. You had to build it with, you know, bigger, more physical guards. So they could, you know, they could, they could, they could guard tools and Chuck could slide over and guard ones.

You had to build it with a lot of defensive. defensive presence because Chuck was going to do most of the scoring. And you built it to defend. So by its nature, it was built with a lot of dudes that could handle theirs, you know, and a level of toughness and grit because that's what Chuck was about. So I think, you know, that team had a lot of guys on its roster that given the opportunity would stand in the paint, including Chuck. Like, you know, he wasn't one of the guys that.

that always stayed above the fray in that regard. You know what I mean? You know, he'd be in the shit's with you sometimes. I'm thinking about Chuck real quick. There's this clip in the O-1 Finals, and I don't know if you know it. I might have brought it up to you, but there's a clip that always comes up in the O'N Finals

that people have been asking me to ask you. This is actually a legendary clip, so I really wish you knew, because you're the only one that could actually talk about what they were talking about. There's like after a timeout and Iverson is going at Kobe Bryant. Like, they're talking shit.

It's not even like no disrespect. I mean, I don't know what it was, because Raja doesn't remember what happened. But they're getting into it. And it seems like it's like, you know, it's finals talk. And you see Raja, who is like 20-something years old, just like I'm here. And I'm just, you just look like you're in this moment where you're like, I'm fucking here. And I have to be razor-focused.

But you're right behind the fray of what happens when they're talking shit. And it's a very legendary clip. It's Kobe. It's Kobe Ivers. and then like Raja Bell being, you know, this Forrest Gump character who's just in the mix. Like, he's just like, I'm here. Well, I mean, look, I wasn't in their conversation. So I don't know exactly what was happening.

But if you've ever been on a basketball court, like, and you like to be in the shits, then you're acutely aware of when people start to popping off. And you find yourself getting closer to that situation, in case it does pop off, right? Like, so I'm aware that they're having their moments, and so we slide up to be close enough to it, like that if anything should go wrong, I don't even know Kobe.

You didn't know him then, especially then. You didn't even know it. And I wasn't really tripping off of, like, I mean, this is hard for people to understand, but, like, I didn't care nothing about Kobe Bryant or Shaquille O'Neal. Like, I was trying to, I was trying to eat. Do you know what I'm saying?

Like, so I couldn't be in all. of anything or what I was getting close enough to that so that if something popped off we were close enough to that that was as simple as that so I wasn't in their conversation and I don't know what was said but I do remember the tender of that night and it was lambs being led to the slaughter right like that was everyone's idea of how that series was going to play out and you know ultimately it wasn't a great series but in game one I think that whole definitely Los Angeles they said probably the world. People were kind of shook. We went in there and beat them. And in game two, if I'm not mistaken, we were rocking. You know, they beat us in game two in

Staples, but it wasn't an easy win. And then we wound up sustaining a couple of injuries that people don't talk about a lot. And the Lakers went on and did what they did. It's not an excuse. But the point was, I think, you know, number one, it was the NBA finals. And number two, it was a little more of a test than I think people, and including the Lakers, thought that they were in for, at least in those first couple games. I was, I was, I remember I was seven years old during that, oh, so one finals, right? I remember that game one. I remember like it was yesterday, dog.

We was at Uncle Money's house in Hayward. And I remember watching that shit as a big Laker fan being very surprised at how y'all went up and beat the, beat the Lakers. And it wound up me being a Lakers fan to, it's being heartbroken to practicing the move of stepping over a motherfucker because my little my at uncle money's house they had a play court they had like one of those little play courts or whatever right and my little cousin was there and we just was practicing that shot that iverson did like we're shaking the shit out of people and then like step it over motherfuckers that's what we was doing after that game that was a surreal night man like we so we won

that game do i remember getting on the bus at the beverly will shirt i remember you know that was a team of professionals matumbo and them used to dress up like and we're superiors and wear superiors and stuff. So I didn't have a heavy suit game. But Mike Woodson, shout out to Mike Woodson. I think they lost last night to Miami. He's the head coach at Indiana University. Now, Woodrow was one of my vets. So he actually gave me some suits, right? Because I was coming on 10 day. He gave me some suits. I had him tailored. And so I was getting, I was getting dressed for this game and I didn't have a tie. So I had to go downstairs to like the gift shop. There's a little, there was a little men store on the corner right outside the hotel on Rodeo. I think it wasn't. So I

grabbed this tie. I went and found the one I life and I went to ring it up and the man was like, yeah, that's $300. I was like, what? I said, wait a minute, bro. Like, don't, but there was nothing in that bad boy for less and I needed the tie. So I remember buying it. And this is why I remember it because as I strolled probably like the, I don't know, maybe 200 yards back to like the driveway of the hotel, I looked up and there was a dude standing there and he was shooting signs at me, like he was talking sign language. And I didn't know what was happening. and then I was like, oh, that's what's happening. So then I got my tail back into the...

Oh! Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, like, I mean, it was when we left in the buses to go to Staples, they were lined up out there like Boorwoods. They were ready to go, right? The city was on fire. Then, you know, the game started.

I really had no feel for whether I was going to play or not. I know they used me in the last series. in only two games, mind you. I had only played in really game six. It was a blowout in Milwaukee. They threw me in at the end of the game. And in game seven, I didn't know I was going in that game. So I didn't know whether he was going to use me or not.

And he calls me in the game. It was just happening so fast, bro, I didn't have time to really think about anything or care about where I was or what was going on. This was like fight or flight. Like, you got a chance. You're going to eat or you got to go back to the CBA. So we got it in.

And I just kind of Chuck was hooping. and I hit a couple shots. We were getting after it. And I remember being in the locker room after the game. I was sitting between Aaron McKee and Alan Iverson

and Noriega's what's the song, man? It was playing. Was it body in the trunk? No, I wasn't body in the trunk. It was one of the early cuts on that album. But it doesn't matter. Larry Brown was walking through the locker room

and Alan Iverson grabbed him and said, yo, where the fuck did you get him? And he pointed at me. Oh, shit! Yeah. It was one of the coolest moments

of my life. He said, this isn't verbatim. You got to forget him. This was 2001 and there's a lot of adrenaline flowing. But the gist of it was, where the fuck did you get him

or where the fuck did he come from? Because I had just played big, hit a huge left-hand layup that was just fluky as hell in overtime. And Larry Brown said something to him. Like, yeah, he, you know,

he has the same shit that you have in terms of heart. Like that was the synopsis of it. And it was one of my forever all-time moments in the NBA. Bro. Like, so I get this sometimes just covering it, right? Like I remember having this feeling, I think, oh, that game six of the finals last year in Boston. And you get this feeling, or at least it's just like, you know,

maybe you got it later because you're kind of more in the moment. But I get this feeling that we're like walking in, living in history, like in a history book or a textbook or some shit during those times. When do you get to the point? Because you're, you have to, I feel like you're going in and out of that where you're talking about like, you know, we're talking about the Kobe Iverson moment where you're like, I'm just locked the fuck in. But then afterwards, you're like, I guess the adrenaline pops out.

And then like, you're like, oh, shit, this actually happened. What the fuck is life? At those moments, when do you, when do you go get in and out of those moments where you're like, fuck, I'm living in history right now too. No, I'm just hooping. Like, where do you go in and out of those modes? I did not do it well. It's one of the regrets that I have.

I would have kept a journal or, you know, we didn't have cell phones with video cameras, but I would have kept like a video diary or something like that, just kind of chronicling what happened every night. I was just in it, Logan. And especially that first year where it was all happening so, so fast to me. like that first, I don't know, it was like a tenth of a year, but that playoff run, it was happening so fast

and I didn't have time to really soak it in or digest it. And it is the old cliche of like I thought, man, I'll be back here, you know. I remember being at the spectrum. Like this was media, media day, or not media day, but it was one of the days in between games two and three where we're back in Philly. And we're back in Philly and we're not practicing at what was, I was first union back then, but we're not practicing there. The spectrum was still standing.

So we went over to the spectrum, which was hell of cool for me because my mom's from Philly. And I grew up. I mean, I love Dr. Jay and Morris Cheeks and, you know, fucking Bobby Joan Moses Malone, like Mark Ivoroni. Those were my dudes. So now I'm in the spectrum. This is hollow ground. But this is really cool. I'm in the locker.

I'm out on the court. And what descended, this had to have been before game one before we went to L.A. because I remember it because I had never seen that much media. Yeah, finals media is different. It was different. And the media outlets were from all over the world. So there were people asking you questions in, you know, broken French and broken Portuguese and, you know, all these different languages. And I was, I was like, man, this was about, I don't know, a month and a half ago that I was in a locker room where there wasn't a single person asking anyone anything.

Yeah, it's weird. Do you know what I'm meeting? And so it was just happening so fast, and I thought I'd be back there every year. And then, you know, I never got to go back to the finals. But I do, if there were regrets, like people asked me if there were any regrets, I would have chronicled that better.

So I could go back and, like, see exactly how I was feeling and see what registered with me that night. And maybe I'd have some of those conversations written there. Now, Rousa, it's interesting you say, just soaking in a moment because on a personal level, like, I got on the Warriors beat when I was, was like very early 20s, right? And why when I get there, they're going to the finals every year.

Like, it was to the point where, like, in the beginning of the season, we had already booked our finals hotels. Like, we had already knew it was going to happen, right? Like, it was like, this is every single day. And I remember just, like, my first year, they go to the finals. Then they went in Cleveland. My second year is Kevin, the year they go to the finals in Toronto, but Kevin is about to leave.

And then you start. thinking about these moments like I'm supposed to be here bro this always happens this is what it is and then you go the following year where they fucking suck and it's a pandemic year and it's like oh this is Steve car always called it the real NBA like this is this is we're living in a fantasy on these other times and it really was like well fuck man like I don't know if I'm ever I think this team sucks I don't think they're ever going to get back right and I'm thinking like I wish I would have you're because when you're especially when you're young you're caught up in the moment so much that you're just like it's all vibes like simple.

to you in your first All-Star game, right? Where your All-Star weekend, where you're just like, oh, man, I got to do all of these things. And you don't realize it's going to end. And it's the league moves so quickly that you have to soak it in. If you're going to, you know, and your career goes fast so quickly that you've got to soak it in. Or it's just going to be a waste. I was blessed to have a lot of footage and pictures from when I played. So, like, if I ever want to go back down memory lane, you know, I could dig into old photos and stuff like that.

it takes me back. You know, relationships are huge, obviously, in anything, but I've got some that have stood the test of time, so, like, we can always hop on the phone or grab some beers, and we go back to that place. But it did, it happened super fast. And one of the hardest things, like you said, Steve Kerr talks about it being the real NBA. Like, I was really blessed.

I went from the Sixers that played in the finals. And then they were, we were a playoff team the next year. I think we lost in Boston with, with Antoine Walker and Paul Pierce, a young Antoine and Paul, like they were tough. So then the next year I wind up with Dallas and winning the Western Conference finals playing in huge, I mean, the Trailblazer series was fantastic. Sacramento Kings and then Steve Carver goes crazy and keeps us out of what should have been the finals. Then I go two years in Utah, which we didn't have playoff success, but I had personal success that allowed me to kind of, you know,

transition into Phoenix, but those were really good teams that were always playing for something, right? So this is pretty much what I know. And one of the hardest days for an NBA player, or at least it was for me, is to experience that level of team success and an organizational, like, functionality and the true family environment that it should feel like when things are good and then go to places where you're not going to make the playoffs and there is a fracture like in the locker. room and it's, you know, it's just, and it's not pointing fingers in anything. It's just a very

hard thing to do when you know what that tastes like. I guess it's like in life, right? When you, it's a level of success and then you got to go backwards. Like, that's a hard thing. Yeah, sure, especially like when you see, you know, when you're at the, when you're at the bottom, and this is just in life, like when you're not where you think you're supposed to be, you start looking at other people and you start comparing yourselves and all that stuff. That's one of the things and you know, you start comparing your, your experiences to other, what other teams are going through now. When did you hit the real NBA? Was it Charlotte or was it, was it, when you went to go to state for that, that last stretch? Was that the, the quote unquote, real NBA for you as

when it started? Yeah, probably, probably Charlotte. You know, it was definitely Utah because when I got to Utah, they had just, Maloney just went to the Lakers and stock had retired, right? So there was this void. And we weren't great. But Utah was this last. But Utah was this. like weird NBA world where it was kind of its own entity, right? Like Jerry Sloan and the structure and stability was always there. And no matter what the roster looked like, you were going to be competing, you know? And so we almost messed around and got into the playoffs with a team that if I told you who was on it, you'd be like, what?

Like, we almost got into the playoffs. So that wasn't really real world because everything was ran well. And, you know, the expectation level, even though we didn't, make the playoffs and the support from the city, even though we didn't make the playoffs, was all still there. Do you know what I mean? Like so you were still in this space that everything felt

kind of like it did in Dallas and in Philly where hella support, you know, hella expectations, so and so forth. But when I got to Charlotte, and they hadn't won in a while, and this is,

listen, this is where they were as a franchise at that point, you know? Like there wasn't a lot of continuity on a roster. They were trying to figure out the pieces that worked together. I probably wasn't a great fit for that. Yes, that was my, that was, those were tough. And then, you know, at the time when I got traded out to Golden State of young Steph, Monti Ellis, like that wasn't, that wasn't what Golden State is now.

And then as I went back to Utah for what I thought was going to be real structure and another chance at it, I didn't get it there either, you know? So the end of my career wound up. You would like it to probably be reversed, right? like in the beginning of your career, lean years, not making a playoffs. You know, you got championship years at the end. Mine was kind of the opposite. It's funny.

You brought up the Charlotte, and that's kind of newsworthy real quick. I want to get your take on this. Jordan is looking to be, Michael Jordan is looking to sell at least a majority's take of the, of the Hornets franchise. And I don't really want to get into that because, like, who cares about the why of why he's selling? But I do want to understand, like, what was MJ like as an owner or as, like as a front office person when you were there. Like I remember the stories or like seeing the stuff like he'll practice with you

and stuff or like he'll, he was, you know, he was one of those guys that like he still felt like he could play. But like what was it like on a day to day when, because you and then you also lived where he, y'all lived in the same like complex. Like what was that dynamic? Like what was it like when Jordan was in the front office at that point? I didn't see Mike much. I mean, he was there like, you know, MJ was.

my guy, like growing up. I, I, he was a god. But I just, he wasn't around a lot, like, in terms of your practice days and stuff like that, he'd be at the games and he was supportive and, you know, it was really cool to have him sitting a few people down from you when you were playing. And there was an element of, like, you don't want to discipline Mike, that's Mike, you know what I mean?

But, um, but I wasn't, you know, I don't think I was really acutely aware that he was there from day to day. And he wasn't like hands on in that regard. Rod Higgins was our general manager. You know, that's MJ's boy. So I'm sure he was around more than I knew. I just didn't see him a lot. And it was crazy.

Have I told that story on air before about him living in the building? Was that an on-air story? You said that? I don't know if you never divulzed it. Like you, I don't remember. I just know it is like something we've talked about. I don't know if it's come on the pod yet. And so, I mean, it was funny to me.

Like, right? He owns the team I'm playing on. And, you know, I was at the end of my deal. So I liked stability. I didn't really like bouncing around. So I wanted to stay in Charlotte, even though, you know, at the time when I got there, it wasn't hell of stable. You know, I thought that we could build something stable there, right? And so, you know, I was hopeful that I'd be able to stay there.

My wife and I liked the town, we got our two young boys. Like, it was great. It was close to home, close to her home in New York. So, you know, my agent, I guess, had started having talks and stuff like that. But, you know, I go home in the summer and, you know, you're about your daily business. And someone said to me once, like, a valet was like, hey, Raj, you know, have you seen Mike? And I'm like, I mean, I live in Miami. There are a lot of mics.

Mike, who are we talking about? And they're like, MJ. And I was like, no, man, like, what do you mean? I haven't been in Charlotte in a month. They were like, what do you mean? He lives in the building. And I said, what building? They were like, he lives in this building.

And I said, man, cut it out, bro. This is Mike. This is an apartment building. Michael Jordan here. I would definitely know. Now, mind you, in this particular building, from the, from the parking levels, there is an elevator that only accesses three doors per floor. Okay?

So when it gets to my 18th floor, there are only three doors that when you get out of that elevator, you can go to, right? And they're all right across the hall from each other. he's like, I think he lives on, man, I don't know, but he drives that, this particular car, and I think he lives on 18. I was like, bro, I was like, man, if you don't get, I live on 18, dog.

There is no way in hell that MJ lived in this building and on 18 to boot that I wouldn't see him. I've lived here for years. So, you know, I'm getting in the elevator to go play golf, I think, one day. I hustle out, the elevator doors are closing, right? I hustle out, put my hand in the elevator, the door swings open like in the movie. I guess who's fucking standing there.

Michael fucking Jordan. Michael Jordan. This man has been living across the hall for me for I don't know how long, Doc. And moving in relative silence because I was all over. That's how MJ do, though. Oh, man, they call him Black Cat for a reason. Like, dog, I had two kids, right? So, like, my kids, we're all over this building.

We're in the pool. We're in the wait room. We are downstairs riding scooters across the, my kids are everywhere. So there's no nook and cranny at this building that I'm not in at any given time. And this man has been living across the hall. And I've seen people going in and out of the door across from me like all the time. Speak to them, pleasant treats. All of that.

Ain't nobody said to me, hey, you know, the owner of the team you play for lives here. I'm like, oh, hell, no. So what was the conversation? Like did you say, how are you feeling when that moment? Man, it was so weird. Like it was.

Did he say hello, Raja? Like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we had a laugh about it.

We, you know, a small talk on the way down in the elevator. You know, it was anti-climactic. It was just what it was. But how weird is it, bro?

Because like, I've been around with like, I've been around, I mean, we've both been around famous people. There's two types of famous people. There's two types of famous people. Just famous people's like, oh,

okay, that's, that's, And it's like, oh shit, that's, that's bro. Like, that's, bro. And I'm, I'm assuming that this was the latter for you. I know you played against Mike, but then you're like, what the fuck is life right now? That feels like a what the fuck is life moment at that point.

Well, at that point, it was kind of like that. I think I probably said something to him about playing, playing some golf, right? Because I know, you know, he's a big golfer. And at the time, I was really a big golfer. So I think I said something to him like that. Again, I'm in a contract and a guy. not a negotiation, but I'm asking for a new contract. So it was a little weird.

You know, I don't know. MJ and I were fine, but it wasn't like, it wasn't like I was star-structed to the point where I couldn't speak, but it wasn't like we had a, we had a golf game after I said we should either. Wait, did he curve you? Did he was like, ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that. Yes.

He was like, yo, let's get her to the lakes. He was like, ha, ha, ha, ha. Something like that. Damn, bro. That made me feel bad because, like, I don't know if people, you got to go back in the archives to get this story. But Raja had the opportunity a few years back to go play golf with Michael Jordan a few years ago.

And I think it was through Rip Hamilton, who came on the show once. And he didn't because he had to do a podcast called The Real Ones. So I feel like I owe Raja every couple of years. Every time we talk about Mike, I feel like I owe Roger. Like, I don't know what I can get them, but like, I feel like, damn, dog. Well, they take one for the team. Yeah, no, I appreciate that.

You know, work comes first. We all have our priorities. Just, I don't know if there's, you know, hey, I'll send you a bill. We'll figure it up. For sure. It's enough of story time on Real Ones. This is clearly a story time ruins. But, all right.

It's Monday. It's about that time. Okay. Kitty Kerm out of the motherfucking cup. once more. It's time for Snow Talk. The latest episode of Snowfall had us. So let me just let me let me let me preview this really

quickly for people. So Kerm saw this late. Me and Kermm saw the episode late. I saw the episode late. Rajas saw this the earliest because he's on the East Coast. We get a text late at night on a Wednesday night, but before snowfall even comes on like

yo! Snowfall with all caps with the thing. And me and Kerm are like, yo, chill. Chill, relax. But he's like, no, bro. Y'all just wait. And boy, was that ending crazy. Kerm, what we got?

What we got for Snow Talk? What's going on? What's good, guys? You know, we got to kick it off with the ending of the episode. So we got to talk about... Franklin just killed, essentially, he killed the father of a CIA agent,

former CIA agent, you know, however you want to look at it. Either way, he marked Teddy's pops. So we got to talk about it. What the fuck happens now? Like, where do you go from here? Like, this is mid-season. How does Teddy retaliate?

Let's start there. Man, well, listen, Teddy already killed Franklin's Pops, right? So, like, I feel like this is retaliation to some degree, right? Where Teddy goes from here, I don't know. Wait, Raza real quick. Do we know that Teddy killed Franklin's Pops? Do we all know that?

like it didn't really show it show up but we know we know he killed him all right we know okay Franklin is so what struck me was the look that that his girl and and moms gave him in that moment did you see did you see the the effect did you see their faces just see like bro there's no coming back from that dog you have you're they're out yeah yeah they are out No matter what happens now, they are out. Going from piggyback and what Roger said, remember last episode before this one where Franklin's mother-in-law is talking to her baby and was like, are you sure that you want to go through with this? Because Franklin doesn't seem like a guy, there's an end point to this. And Franklin doesn't seem like a guy that's about to let up.

So if you want to get out, you should get out right now. And she's like, no, I'm standing by my man. And so all of that was a precursor to them being on the couch right there and seeing a man and seeing what happened transpired. That might be too gory to explain what happened and how he died on this podcast. He stabbed him with the quickness. Let's just say it that way. Let's say it that way, right? And they every, that conversation came back around and you can see Franklin's boo-boo like, oh, fuck.

So I think the sign of this is too far gone. Franklin is just Franklin's Franklin's gonna die Franklin's over with Franklin it's over with Yeah Now let's talk about Teddy's dumbass daddy Cause like I'm just gonna

I'll keep it up I know there needs mom She's kind of fine But first of all she don't even look old Just pulling up in the retirement home And your first instinct is Yeah I'll leave with you

I just met you five minutes ago Like I'm not saying dude Deserved to die But come on now Thoughts I think that we got to really get respect to how it probably feels at a retirement home where, like, you ain't getting no type of friendship at all. Like, no type of human interaction. No one loves you.

It's very tough there, right? So the first, like, he probably ain't had a real deep conversation like that in years because you know Teddy ain't coming to that motherfucker. Teddy ain't coming to visit, you know? Who knows how long it's been? So while it was, it was a fatal mistake, I understand. I really do understand why he did it. I get it. Take that a step further.

I mean, she is a professional hustler, right? Like, that's not like you got duped by, by just a random that popped in. Like, that's what she does for a living, right? Like, she is a professional hustler. I have a grandmother that's 90-some years old in a facility that my mom and my aunties and them go visit. Like, that's very difficult on her. And if a 75-year-old semi-attractive dude came in there and she might bounce with him today, I'm just saying, I don't know. There we go.

I mean, Nanny might be out. We might be like, Nanny, where the fuck did Nanny go? I understand. I understand, bro. I get it. I'll say that. What's the next question, Kerm? All right.

We got two more. So you know we got to talk about Leon. This is turning into the Leon podcast from being honest. but dude after all this hotep shit all this you know

I'm a changed man I went to Africa he back in the game now but I'm gonna ask you guys and let you guys frame this

how you want to frame it is he you know the savior of the hood is sacrificing his morals to give the community

what he needs or is he simply he just a blatant hypocrite hotep dude that just got right back in the game what do you guys think

I don't I mean I like you think it's the former. I'd like to think it's the former. I'd like to think that he sees a need. He doesn't like what's going on. Um, and he will sacrifice to, to at least land some level of stability if that's, if that's possible. Um, but at the end of the day, it does make you a hypocrite, right? Like, it does. Even if you're a former. So you're going to fall into that category regardless. Um, you know, I don't know, man. I'm, I'm worried about Leon. You know what I'm worried about.

I'm worried about Wanda. Listen, hold on, listen, listen, hold on. Where's my camera? Cameras right here. Wanda. Wanda. Look at me right here. Wanda, you need to take your ass home.

Go somewhere else. You take the flight to Africa and you get the fuck out. Because Leon out here, you knew it was bad business. When Leon comes out with the white beater, and he's calling motherfuckers out of their name. And he's over here saying it's a new sheriff in town. And I'm taking over the streets. And it's my turn.

you saw her in the back no boo boo boo go to go to the go to the beverly wilshire you got money go to the beverly wilshire for a night go to the spa and then take your ass back to africa okay that's all you need to do and never look back it is over leon don't love anything but the streets it's over go home boo boo boo go back to africa go over there another another another look at a man in the last episode that was very, very, like, visceral. You could read her face. The look on her face when she saw, she was like, damn, that's a wrap. A lot of women seeing that they do as ain't shit on this episode, bro.

A lot of, it's literally all we're seeing in this episode is just realizations that they do ain't shit. Like, you can see it because, because I love the cinematography on this. And every time Franklin or Leon makes a bad decision, there's always a pan to the women, And like, what the fuck did we just get ourselves into? All right, what's the last question, bro? What's the last question, Kurt? Okay, one, one point five questions.

This is a follow up on Leon. Over under for episodes left before we see Leon get put on a t-shirt. Let's be real now. Over under one and a half episodes. I'm going to take the over, but like not that much. I'm going to take the over on one and a half episodes on now. What you think, Ra? I think Leon's the last man standing, bro.

Somehow, huh? You are high. You know what it might be? I do. So at the end of the wire, when Marlowe like ends up winning, right? But he doesn't end up winning because the new dude, I think that's going to be the ending with Leon. That's the argument for the ending with Leon that like he wins the game, but he doesn't really win the game because he loses everything.

Yeah. I think I think Leon has been the only one that's shown you like some level of understanding that it's bigger than that at some point in the show. I think. And so you got such a soft spot for Leon. No, I think it'll be poetic to have him standing while all the rest of the cast that saw it too late. You know, like Rome is trying to see it, but it might be a little too late, bro. You don't, you don't do it too much.

We'll see. I got over one and a half episodes, but I don't think he's going to last for full transparency. I think you're going to get popped. Let's wrap this up with Jerome. What is going on with this dude? Is he in like a midlife crisis? It seems like he's ready to get out the game, but doesn't see a way out the game. Where are we going with him right now?

My man looked like he needs a trip to Africa too. Just by himself, though. Louis ain't going Africa. Louis ain't going. Louis, listen, you talk about somebody that is like, that might get pop very soon. Louis is looking like they're on the way. But I think that bro needs to go to Africa and he needs just leave it all behind. Bro, none of this stuff is, none of this stuff is fruitful.

You got all that money and you stressed every. day that you're going to get pop. You know where you don't feel that way? Africa. Go to Africa. Yeah, it's, it's, I'm with you. I know, I, uh, God, bro. It's just deeper conversation. Like, I don't, when is enough enough? Like, when do you have enough for it to be enough? I mean, clearly, like, I've never sold drugs and I don't know the allure of it. And I'm not judging, but I'm just saying at some point, you know, stop spending money on Versace's shirt, stack for three months to take your ass out of the country. And dip.

Sell all your cars, sell all your houses, get the fuck out. Go, bro. Yeah, I mean, he's one of my favorite characters at real talk. Like, Uncle Rome is my guy. So that's going to be hard for me, but I think he is going to get caught up. His pardinas don't even want nothing to do with him, bro.

He went to the car lot and he over here got the strap, bro. He bringing heat to, like, his pardnas who are out of the game. Everybody, bro. And Louis is too, like, Louis is, Louis don't even care about the bread. Louis just cares about being the boss. She just wants to win. You know what I'm saying?

And so, like, if you don't divest from that, that's going to get you, that's going to get you killed. Thank you, Kerm. That was another edition of Snow Talk. And that's been another edition of Ruins. Raja is no Raja on Thursday episode. He is going to be raising kids and having a lot of fun in Florida. So we will see Raja next Monday.

I will see you guys on on Thursday, man. We'll talk soon, man. tap in holla all of it bye