The Ringer NBA Show - Dion Waiters’s Suspension, Hayward’s Hand, and the Nightmare in New York | Heat Check

Episode Date: November 11, 2019

Instant Replay: Dion Waiters’s suspension, Gordon Hayward’s injury, and the success of the Raptors (03:00). The Main Event: James Dolan and the dreadful Knicks (22:00). Good Call/Bad Call: Giannis gets violent, Nick Nurse gets touchy, Carmelo still wants to ball, and the Clippers’ throwback jerseys (36:15). Host: John Gonzalez Guests: Haley O’Shaughnessy and Dan Devine Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And now, if you purchase an engagement ring, you will also receive a complementary diamond jewelry gift to see terms for the special offer and to shop. all of Brilliant Earth selections, go to BrilliantEarth.com slash ringer NBA. That's BrilliantEarth.com slash ringer NBA. And now, Heat Check. Welcome to Heat Check. I'm your host, John Gonzalez, normally joined as I am every week by Isaac Lee, except for he was farmed out to binge mode.

They're doing the Star Wars thing, and he's got a lot of stuff going on. So joining us instead in studio, filling in quite admirably and capably already. Jim Cunningham. Thank you for having me, John. It's great to be here. This is wonderful. We're going to talk. you're going to have to talk like all sorts of clippers later just to like fill that

Isaac Lee Void. Okay, great. It's very excited about the clubbers already fitting in with Heech. I want to thank all of you guys for listening. A reminder to please rate and review us. I'm still laughing about you saying, okay, great. And don't forget all the great NBA content on the ringer.com. Roger Sherman wrote about the NCAA ruling against James Weissman from Memphis.

He could be the first overall pick in the NBA draft, but the NCAA is trying to keep him from playing, even though he just played. Dan just wrote a story about how to enjoy another joyless Knicks season and 13 easy steps. He wrote that before the whole Knicks meltdown over the weekend, which we're going to get into in great depth. I'm sure Dan's going to be thrilled about that. Palo on another injury for Gordon Hayward, which is a bummer and his star-crossed run with the Celtics. Later on in the show, as I mentioned, we're going to break down what's happening with the already broken New York Knicks.

But first, let's review the latest news from around the league and bring in our regular contributors, Dan and Haley. Boom, Chakalaka. He's heating up. All right, one of them is in studio, one is way across the country on our NYCHQ. It's heat check coast to coast. Haley and Dan. And we've all taken edibles. Haley doing the hosting jobs better than I ever could.

Brings us to our first topic. Let's go to the segment we call NBA Instant Replay. Rewinding the news from the weekend. This has to be one of the most bizarre stories that we've come across. And maybe he checked history. Dionne Waiters was suspended 10 games for conduct detrimental to the team. He'll lose a $1.2 million bonus. This is the second time he's been suspended this year for conduct detrimental.

This time, first reported by the Andy Slater show, he had a reaction to edibles on a flight from Phoenix to L.A. And Shams Sharney reported that he told. took a gummy on the flight from Phoenix to LA and then had a panic attack as a result. He missed the game against the Lakers. His mom initially defended him and said it was fake news, which when your mom gets involved, all of a sudden, it's gotten worse for you. But now, who knows what's going to happen with the on waiters moving forward. But guys, I don't know which one of you to go to first.

Dan, I think you're our resident gummy correspondent here. Big gummy head. I think you were talking to your children this morning about gummies. Well, yeah, so it is a weird divide here because I have two small children and in the morning when they want their vitamins, they say, Daddy, can I have my gummies? And my immediate reaction was like, no, no, that will cost you $1.2 million. I can't allow you to have that. Also, maybe not great that I went right to the $1.2 million and not the panic attack on a cross-country flight. Maybe not a great idea for me as a parent. Haley, what was your reaction to this? And I think you were very impressed by how this was reported it out. First, I would like to extend some sympathy, as Dan was alluding to, because he did have a panic attack. And it was reported also that he had a seizure and panic attacks were very scary. And many people who take gummies on flights have panic attacks or close to it. Also, yeah, I was very impressed with the reporters. You know, they just said gummies and edibles. And they didn't say, like, weed, THC, CBD combination, edibles, weed, weed. You know what I mean? Like, it was very loose. Like they assumed we all knew exactly what gummies meant. I was impressed. All right. So aside from the fact that this did not go well for Dion Waiters, it's not going well for

Deon Waiters on the court either. He missed a season opener after he expressed frustration on social media about his role with the team which led to the initial suspension for conduct detrimental. He's lost much of his role to Tyler Hero and Kendrick Nunn. He's been active for only two of nine games. He has yet to dress and sit on the bench for a game. Do we think like there's any chance of Dion Waiters like, you know, getting back in the good graces of the Miami Heat?

No, I mean, I think that they were, I think it's been a while that they've been out on him. I don't, I think that this is one of many things. And also, you know, yes, it's terrible that this is what's costing him his bonus. But I think he probably wouldn't have end up getting it anyway. I think if there's any, anything to credit Dion Waiters for here, Dan, it's that apparently according to Shams, the, the heat believed that Waiters was given the, gummy by a teammate and Dion declined to snitch and rat out who gave it to him. So like, you know, if we're doing the ledger here on points in his favor, this might be the only one.

I'm never going to tell our bosses which one of you gave me the gummy. I'm never going to do it not even one time. Now, obviously, I mean, it's pretty evident who did, but I would never say it. I would never rat you out, Haley. Thanks, Dan. I appreciate that as well, Dan. All right, so God speak to Dionne Waiters and whenever he does return. Other players who are returning, potentially this week. Well, for sure this week, Blake Griffin is going to make his season debut tonight, Monday night. Paul George, Doc Rivers said that it is possible that he could also return this week. He was back at practice, although Doc said, you know, he wasn't exactly sure when he would make his debut, but it looks like he's on track there. Players who are not

coming back anytime soon, and this is unfortunate, Gordon Hayward fractured his left hand in a win over the spurs. He collided with Lamarcus Aldridge on a screen. There's been a rash of hand injury, Steph Curry, Marvin Bagley, Gerald Green, Kyle Lowry, who will get to in a second. Gordon Hayward is scheduled to visit a hand specialist on Monday. If he needs surgery, that will also happen on Monday. Haley, this is a bummer. He's been playing really, really well. Last season did not go well from him after he returned from the ankle and leg injury.

This year, though, almost 19 points a game, a little over seven rebounds, a little over four assists, 55 and change from the field, 43 and changed from three. he was killing it and now he's going to be out for a little bit. Yeah, and it took him a year to recover from that leg injury, but I'm hoping that this will be different because it's not nearly as traumatic, which I don't want to downplay. But, you know, a lot of his issues coming back where hesitancy, going to the hoop and everything like that.

So I hope that this will be a lot easier to come back with. The good news is that if Boston has depth anywhere, it's at the wing, and talent anywhere it's at the wing. Yeah, well, this is a good point. Dan, so the Boston Celtics, we're going to talk about surprises, not just with how well, Gordon Hayward has played in, how he's looked like himself. But the Celtics have been, you know,

an addition by subtraction here without Kyrie Irvin, top of the Eastern Conference, currently in first place seven and one, how much does this hurt them losing Gordon? And can they, you know, keep their heads above water while they figure out whether or not he's going to be coming back in how soon? Yeah, I think Haley's right that the depth that they've got

on the wing is going to help them here. You know, you've got Marcus Smart who can step in and sort of eat more minutes and a bigger role on the wing. They've been using Kemball Walker more as sort of like a shooter and finisher than a real table. but he's a legit point guard, an all-MBA caliber point guard. They can let him be more of a table set or he can take on more of a playmaking role. You know, they've got sort of an even home road split.

I think it's 10 and 10 until Christmas. So, like, they're not going to be on a really brutal schedule. They should be able to sort of survive this and weather the storm. But, you know, they've been much better on offense with him so far. So they're going to have to redistribute some shots and some possessions. One, I hope he gets well soon. I would never root for an injury. I hope that he heals up.

He's back out on the court. It was great to see him playing well again. In the interim, though, if the Boston Celtics lose some games, I mean, these are the things that happen. Other injuries to the Raptors, second place in the east, also a super surprise, I think. There was some question about how they would look this year without Kauai Leonard, and they've just been killing it. We're going to get to their game that I was at against the Los Angeles Lakers at the Staples Center last night. Second place in the East, but they've also run into some bad luck. They lose Kyle Lowry.

I saw him at the Staples Center with a wrap on his thumb. he's got a small fracture in his left thumb. He's also going to see a hand specialist in LA. Maybe him and Gordon Hayward can get a group rate, like a little discount. It would be nice. He's going to be reevaluated in two weeks. Let's start with him, though. He was playing super heavy minutes, Haley, 36.1 minutes per game, which I guess because, you know,

you're without Kauai this year and you've got your starting five and you're going to run them out there. It felt a little heavy. I'm not saying that that's why he got hurt. It's not. It just felt a little heavy to me. And now, you know, they're going to nil. need to replace those minutes. They've got Fred Van Fleet. But it's sort of next man up mentality for

them. Lean more heavily on NBA champion Fred Van Fleet. He's really good. Father of two, arguably runner up for finals MVP, NBA champion Fred Van Fleet. He's so good. Dan, also a great talker, as you and I learned last year at the finals. That guy, he's fun to just chat with and now he's running the offense. He was an absolute delight to talk to. I wonder if he's going to feel a little bit tired and grumpy, though. Already a team leading 37.4 minutes a game, and that's not going to go, it's not going to go down without Lowry. And if it doesn't work out for Fred, just have a third child. He'll just keep procreating and fixing all that. All right, so Lowell, they lose Lowry. That's bad, right? But then also they lost Serge Abaka, who was in a walking booty, he sprained his ankle.

Nick Nurse initially called it pretty bad. Those two guys are going to miss their reunion with Kauai Leonard on Monday night. They play the clippers in the back-to-back in Los Angeles against the two L.A. teams. On the whole, in the main here, gang, losing, and there's a gang that had and everybody drink for the heat check drinking game. But like, initially I thought, okay, this is where we're going to see the Toronto Raptors fall off, right? Because you lose two of your main rotation players, one of whom is a starter, depending on what night it was, sometimes Abaka was in there. Did I overestimate or did I, let me do this again, did I underestimate the depth of the Toronto Raptors who proved it yet again against the Los Angeles Lakers. Lakers were on a seven-game

winning streak. Raptors go in there with no Lowry, with no Abaca. Next man up, they were playing a bunch of guys who, I'm going to guess, the casual NBA fan did not know existed. And guess what, that Lakers streak is over. The Raptors beat them on their floor. Yeah, I mean, I think part of it is Nick Nurse is now going to have to sort of be forced to trust that bench. He really wasn't ready to give guys like Terrence Davis or Matt Thomas or some of those guys sort of longer leashes and longer minutes. But he's kind of got to at this point. And some of those guys can play.

Ronde Hollis Jefferson is a guy who had some success in Brooklyn before they brought him over, had a little bit of struggle getting acclimated to the system. But you got to give those guys a shot now. Chris Boucher was somebody that was awesome in the G League for them. And they brought up last year to the main roster. Now you're going to have to see what those other guys can do. And it turns out alongside a legit MVP. P-Caliber candidate and Pascal Seaccom, they can do some pretty interesting things.

Yeah, Nurse before the game last night, we were asking him, okay, so now what happens with your rotation? And he goes, yeah, I'm going to have to find some other guys to fall in love with pretty quick here. And it was crazy. So his starters for the game against the Lakers were Gasol, OG, Haley's guy, Fred Van Fleet, Norm Powell and Pascal, right? Off the bench, guys who saw minutes, as Dan just mentioned, Boucher, Rondie, Hollis,

Jefferson, who hadn't done anything. Matt Thomas, Terence Davis, and Stanley Johnson even got out there. Nick Nurse had said after the game, like when he was asked about Ronda, he's like, yeah, Ronda's not the most talented guy. He just does everything on effort. And I'm like, wow, shots fired, but also like kind of true. That's what that's what Gahn says about me every single podcast. You're top tier talent.

Are you buying the Raptors with this conglomeration of like bit parts that they're sort of stitching together to keep them moving. Can they stay in the Eastern Conference mix while they wait for Lowry and Abaca to come back? There was a time not too long ago when we were calling the Raptors Bench one of the deepest in the NBA. And granted, it has switched out a lot since then, but I'm wondering if we just didn't give enough credit to Nick Nurse for creating that. Maybe he's more Brad Stevensy than we've thought or have gotten to see so far. But also, I think that this increased load on Pascal and OG is going to be a really good thing. Pascal's already having odds for like Dan said, MVP and for most improved player again. So I think it's going to be exciting to see him this year.

And if there's any silver lining to Lowry being out, it's that he's going to get more of a load. Yeah. And Dan, they're using him a little bit now as a point, which I think is super interesting. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. You know, we had talked in years past about like, what if OG Anerobi was their sort of Kawhi Leonard starter kit? And now it's like, well, what if Pascal Seacum is their Yonah's starter kit? You know, like, yeah. And, you know, the, uh, we'll, uh, we'll have, uh, uh, will William Liu at Yahoo Sports Canada had written a pretty cool piece about that. He talked to Nick Nurse this summer about what the next developmental step is for Pascal Seacum. It's like to be the man and to have the offense run through you.

I looked up a couple numbers on this. When Lowry's off the floor, Seacom's usage rate and assist rate both go up. He's averaging something like 30 points, 10 rebounds, and four assists per 36 minutes with no Lowry this season. And it's all those numbers are probably only going to go up because he's going to have so much more of a creative load to handle. and it seems like every time you throw more at him, he's able to shoulder it. So this is going to be the opportunity for him to show that he can. But so far, so good, like on every level for Pascal Seacum. Yeah, and for the Raptors on the whole, I think like when they lost Kauai,

I didn't know what to make of them. I didn't know. I certainly didn't think that they would be this good so far. And I didn't think they'd be this fun either. That game last night was just wild to watch. At one point late in the game when it was mostly wrapped up, a crazy Raptor's chance started at State. People Center, and it was loud, and Nurse was asked about it afterwards and said, you know,

our guys, our fans really travel well. So kudos to the entire Raptors Enterprise, which keeps rolling. The Lakers, after that initial Clippers loss, this was only their second loss of the season, have their seven-game win streak snapped. It was the most, the longest win streak they had had in eight years. They waste a triple double by, right, which says something. They waste a triple double by LeBron James. Here's something that I thought was interesting that, happened afterwards. I was in the Raptors locker room, so I missed this. But Bill Orham, who does excellent work for the athletic, shouts to Bill, uh, talk to Anthony Davis, who said his shoulders bothering him. Warning signs. Danger Will Robinson. This is the, the quote from AD via

Bill Orham. There's really never a play. I don't feel it. But I'm going to go out there and play. I try not to let it affect my game. I just play through it and then worry about taking care of it after the game. Oh, no. That is. Why would he say that out loud? Now every, like, Baker's fan is scared. Pelicans fans are probably even still scared because they hear that and is their automatic response. Dan, how worried are you about Anthony Davis and his shoulder and him saying it hurts him all the time and then he worries about it later? I feel like I'm not going to get fooled again on this because basically three times a week, Anthony Davis goes down hard and then goes back to the locker room or to the bench wincing and holding something and then comes out and puts up 40 and 20

and three quarters. So like it's certainly a concern. It's certainly something to monitor because of just the outsized role he has to play on both ends of the floor for the Lakers. But he's out there in playing and producing really well. So I think like, I'll be pumped the brakes on major concerns. But yeah, obviously the whole point of this Lakers team

is that you have two of these guys to be able to sustain the creative workload and the scoring load and everything else. If you only have one of them, everything gets a little diceier. So it's not what you want to hear, but we've also seen him get dinged up and have it be an issue before.

All right. Final headlines from NBA instant replay. The Joker hit two game winners and two straight games, one over Kat in overtime, the other against the team. I don't even remember who they were playing in that other game,

maybe a team from the East Coast. It doesn't really matter. Let's see, the Rockets. The Rockets got crushed by Mike Dan Tony, who called their D-Soft. Then they go out and rattle off three straight wins. Frazing guns. What did I say?

D-Soft. All right, leave that in there. Three straight wins again. the gris, the Warriors, and the Bulls, they held the Bulls to 94. So I guess the old school motivation works. And finally, I just want to say shots to the Blazers. They beat the Hawks in overtime at home. This one was wild.

You guys finish it up on this. It was their first win at home this season. I couldn't believe it. It's surprising because it feels like Portland's one of the better fan bases. So maybe they're just discouraged this year by having the same old lineup again and again. But I don't know. That seems really surprising to me. Yeah, I mean, maybe it's just that a rabid and raucous fan base can't overcome the fact that you're playing Rodney Hood and Mario Hizone, the four and the five.

And you're just sort of trying to figure it out as you go along. The thing that's most interesting to me about the Blazers right now is that I think Damian Lillard is having the season that we thought Steph would have in the bay. Like everything falling apart around him, I've got to do everything. He scores 60 against Brooklyn and they lose. He's averaging like the numbers are crazy. And it's like now with Steph being out, I wonder if we start, you know, people have been talking about. Like, Dame's basically the next best thing to Steph besides Steph. I wonder if we're going to start seeing that sort of attention paid to him as the season goes on.

Let Dame Cook. We root for the Blazers here at Heat Check H.Q. That was NBA Instant replay. Before we go to the main event and dive deep on Dan's thriving New York Knicks. Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show, Heat Check is brought to you by Luminary, a podcast subscription service with some of the best content around. I'm excited about Luminary because it's the only place I can listen to the ringer's amazing.

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Plus, shipping's free. That's Indochino.com promo code NBA for $30 off your total purchase of $399 or more. It's an incredible deal for Made to Measure. your clothing. You really have no excuse anymore to wear clothing that doesn't fit. And now, back to heat check. And now it's time for the main event. Dan Devon, you just recently wrote a piece called How to Enjoy Another Joyless Nick's season and 13 Easy Steps. Man, did that prove prophetic? Already in mid-season form, things are not going well in New York City. The Knicks lost by 21 to the Cavs at home on Sunday. Colin Sexton cooked them for three.

31 points. They have dropped eight of their first 10 games. And so afterwards, a very unusual thing happened. Knicks president, Steve Mills and GM Scott Perry addressed the media after a blowout lost to the Cavs. As somebody who's in the media, just to explain to heat check listeners, what the Knicks hate most, it's that. It's talking to the media. And they came out and they did it willingly. Steve Mills said, we aren't happy where we are. This is not where we expected to be. And he was talking about Jim Dolan here. He said, he still believes the plan that we put together. Dan Devine, what the hell plan are they talking about?

538 and everybody else expected them to have a bad season, depending on which win projection you fancy. For example, 538 had them projected to win 20 games. This is who all of us thought they'd be. What happened with the Knicks? And it's already DefCon what? We did this before. Is the five the bad ones?

Whatever the bad one is, it's that. Yeah, it's DefCon. Whoops. And I think the issue is, there was a way to look at this and say, well, if you add like actual NBA players who can do actual NBA things to the existing young guys, you raise the floor of the team and it becomes maybe competitive enough to win like high 30s in a really bad East. And maybe that puts you in position for like a seven or eight seed while still maintaining financial flexibility moving

forward because nobody's on deals beyond like a year or two down the line. The problem is they do these NBA things, but they don't always do them well. Like, if Julius Randall isn't going to score like 25 a game on high efficiency, you know, barreling to the basket as like a small ball five, he's not helpful. Marcus Morris is going to take 50 shots. If they don't go in, it doesn't help you, even if he's tough. Like all those sorts of things that they, you know, Alfred Payton was good when he was healthy, but how often does he stay healthy? The rotations and the decision making doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense. And the result is what we've come to expect. A two and eight start and a team that might be the worst one in the league, all things considered.

Mills also blamed effort and consistency for the poor start, to which Marcus Morris helpfully responded, he's fucking right. Who likes losing there's obviously a sense of urgency? And he said, it's not like they haven't told us the same shit. Everybody knows. Haley, how do you think it's going in that locker room?

Well, Morris especially is a very admirable competitor. If there's anything you're going to get from him, it's that. And like Dan said, yes, they added real NBA players, but they added them almost only at Power Forward. And just to give some extra context of what Gons was saying about them hating to admit so much that they're fucking up, MSG kicked out a fan yesterday

who started a fired Dolan chant. And they used six security guards to take out this one fan. Yeah. Who also delightfully tweeted after the game that this was toxic masculinity. And I will never argue with someone, you know, blaming something on toxic masculinity

because it's everywhere. But I think that this is purely Dolan. Yeah. I mean, in the same way that you've got to boot out all the Hong Kong protesters, you've got to get the security guards to get rid of the, get rid of James Dolan chance. So, but I think it's interesting what, what Mills said here, Dan, when he says that he's blaming effort and consistency, what he's not talking about is the construction, which is what you were saying. He's talking about the execution, which falls squarely under Fisdale. He was kind of blaming Fisdale without blaming Fisdale. And Fizz came out and said, look, you know, our consistency isn't there.

I take full responsibility for that. But I live in that sense of urgency. I don't need anyone to speak to give me a sense of urgency. So he was kind of pushing back on that a little bit. And this is my favorite part. In this whole thing, he said, we're two games from the eighth seed, which, you know, Fizz, I love your optimism here, guy, but that's not going to happen. You mentioned Fizz's rotations.

They are super weird. My question for you, Dan, is how hot is Fizzdale's seat? because on my drive-in, I'm listening to NBA radio. The New York tabloids are already burying everybody. Should FIS be worried here? Because there's already these percolating like, hey, maybe Mark Jackson, which that's not going to help. But I wonder if Fizz should be worried.

Of course he should be worried because the only constant with the NICS is change. It's the only constant is to forever be looking for the next savior, the next person that's going to finally bring you back to the promised land. he should also be worried because through 92 games as the coach of the Knicks, he's 19 and 73. So, like, that's not all his fault because, as we said, you know, the roster construction doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Some young players have underperformed their expectations and some older players have certainly underperformed their expectations too. But when you lose 70 or 80 percent of your games and the management comes out to say, after 10 games, we're not happy with what we're seeing,

you should definitely be worried. Whether this is, you know, how much of this is his fault, how much of it is the way he was sort of set up to fail is, you know, that's going to be a matter for the courts. But the thing that I keep thinking of is you talk about execution, there's that old joke. Like, what do you think of the team's execution? I'm for it. The Knicks should be put out of their misery already. It's like, where they're 10% into the season and it's really hard to feel optimistic that what you're going to see is going to meaningfully improve going forward. Helly, is it fair to blame Fizz and to put this on him? Because as Dan said, like, you look at the roster that they gave him. They clearly struck out in free agency. They had this plan.

it didn't work out. And now all of a sudden he's trying to like, you know, stitch this thing together. And it's awfully difficult. And also, like, would replacing him matter at all? I mean, is Mark Jackson or is somebody else going to come in and fix what seems to be unfixable? I don't think it's fair to blame him yet. They've played 10 games, which also makes Mills comment about being two games away from the A-seat even more hilarious. But I do think, especially with a new or partially new roster, you always have to give.

give a coach some kind of grace period. So I think that that's jumping too much to conclusions. Something that's also interesting is he shouldn't be the only one that's worried about his job because Frank Asola of the Athletic reported that they are planning to pursue Messiah again, which is just as hilarious as them planning to pursue whatever free agent that they're planning to pursue in the future and in the past. Yeah, they're going to get Janis one day. It's going to be incredible.

Everybody just wait for it, Dan. So as we're talking, breaking news from Adrian Wojnerowski and Mol. Alika Andrews at ESPN, even before some quoting from the piece, even before a startling news conference in the wake of a blowout loss to Cleveland, Nick's president, Steve Mills, had started to lay the internal groundwork for the eventual dismissal of Coach David Fisdale league sources told ESPN. So no firing yet, but the story is already coming out like they're laying the groundwork for it. They're setting the table for it. Mills is selling owner James Dolan on a roster constructed to be competitive in the Eastern

Conference, leaving Fisdale vulnerable to an ouster. So it's going to get messier and weirder and stupider before it gets any. better as is the basically the only consistent thing that's been true about the Knicks for the last 20 fucking years. Yeah. So there's so much smoke here. Eventually there's going to be fire or someone fired. And I think like when you have somebody, when you have Mills and Perry go out, it's clearly signaling that like, okay, somebody's going to have to be the fall guy for this. And it's not going to be us. But also I thought it was very interesting that according to Frank Ayasola, James Dolan might have ordered Mills and Perry to go out and address.

the media, which is something that, as we've mentioned, they hate talking to the media. This organization is as anti-media, top, two bottom, four years. I mean, Dan, you mentioned all the change. The one thing that has not changed with that organization is they don't like dealing with the media. Last year it was judge us on how we're developing players. Well, that didn't go over very well. And then they just basically just stopped talking to the media.

So I think for them to send out Mills and Perry, things behind the scenes clearly are not going well. But also, in addition to them not dealing with the media and not wanting to talk to the media, the other one thing that hasn't changed over the years is James Dolan. Right? He's the one constant. And so, like, all roads lead back to this. When you have KD over the off season saying, you know, we wanted to be in New York, but it was a culture thing.

And we figured the culture was better in Brooklyn. Like, what does that mean? It means we don't want to go and play for James Dolan. He said people don't, stars don't want to go there. That is not a good thing, Haley O'Sha. Yeah, but if you're a prideful person like James Dolan, he says, he's not a good thing, Dolan obviously is you're going to lean further into trying to prove that you're the man for the job. Yeah, okay. I mean, how's that working out? Like, how are you going to change that?

Look, I'm not saying it's smart or sensible. Why do you love James Dolan so much, Haley? Do not put that on me. He has destroyed an entire city and an entire franchise. And I'm not talking about New York. Noted James Dolan defender, Haley O'Shaughnessy. As you are as well, Dan Devine, like, you've seen it up close for years and years and years. Is there any way for them, to turn this around. Like, it feels very much like a Dan Snyder in Washington situation that as long as he's in charge, it's not going to change. And that's, I mean, the part that really makes it difficult to hope if you're a Knicks fan

is that there's no reason outside of the shame of perpetual losing, there's no reason for him to change anything. They're perpetually valued as, you know, one of the most valuable franchises in the NBA. If he ever wanted to sell, he could get like $7 billion for the franchise and MSG and everything else. They make money hand over fist no matter whether the team is good, bad, or indifferent. And so there's no like business case for here's why to do it. If you're okay with just having your fiefdom the way you have it, then this is just going to continue the way it has been. And so the difficult thing, the really more frustrating part and where all of your listeners can keep drinking

about my Nick's sadness, by all means, please do. All they have to do is just lean into the part about development, right? You're saying, Their argument last year was, judge us by how the young players are developing. Frank Nalekina looks better this season. Kevin Knox is shooting 44% from three. Mitchell Robinson is a legitimately exciting center who fouls too much but plays well. R.J. Barrett is the brightest spot on the team. There are actual things to sell excitement on at this point.

They just can't get out of their own fucking way to be able to do it. And it's mind-blowing to me that they actually have something that they could sell and they're not going to be able to do it. And again, just going right back to like all the dysfunction, it's going to be the front page story and it's going to remain that way, you know, world without end, amen. That was excellent, Dan. I feel like you needed to get something off your chest. Dan, in that rant, Haley, there was some underlying tone of optimism, right, where he ticked off a number of young players who could potentially develop into something for the Knicks moving forward.

I am, it starts to make me think about when the Sixers were really bottoming out. And everybody was saying, well, this is going to have a massive impact on their culture. You're teaching these kids how to lose. They'll never learn how to win. That turned out not to be true. However, I think not all things are comparable between those two organizations, right? The Sixers are, despite the fact that they had a lot of drama going on over these last several years, they had better top tier players. And I think ultimately were a more stable organization.

So my question for you is, how worried would you be about how this might impact the growth and the development of the guys that Dan just mentioned, like, R.J. Barrett, Frankie Smokes, Mitchell Robinson. I'll stop there. That's good enough. First of all, the Sixers were trying to lose. The Knicks are not trying to lose anymore. That's a good point. I think that especially for players like Kevin Knox, you know, David Fiszel was supposed to be the one to develop them. That was what he was known for, right? It was being a good players coach, developing players, even switching them. Chris Bosch is the perfect example, you know, really teaching him how to excel it. at a being a stretch for. So I think that that is exactly the case for giving him a little bit more time, especially because they do have potential, like Dan said.

But it's an interesting mix of, will the front office ever get out of their way? Dan's shaking his head. I don't think that he thinks that's going to happen. Dan? Yeah, no, I mean, it's really difficult to envision a situation where the front office gets a chance to put a plan in place. The coach gets a chance to execute that plan.

we feel confident that everybody is doing the right thing, that it's the right plan, and that even if that all comes together, it won't get Bigfoot stomped by Dolan. Like, there's, I don't know, I want to find reasons for hope, but I'm coming up empty on it. But ultimately, if Mills and Perry are selling to Dolan, no, no, no, this is a good roster, then, yeah, man, like, if you're going to let them sell you a bill of goods or, hey, like, we've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you and, like, I'll buy it. That's on you. Yeah, and the thing that's always the most galling with it, like, Dolan has always put into, you know, put into his people that is Aaron Power, his preferred staffers or whatever.

And then the one time he'd said, I'm going to take a step back and hire the best guy and just let him run everything and I'm not going to be involved was fucking Phil Jackson. And so it's like the idea of like knowing when to be involved and when to not be involved, what to spend on, what not to spend on. he never gets it right. And so the cause for optimism is he'll always spend, but is he ever going to spend on the right things? And is he ever going to make that right choice? And it's hard to find a cause for hope in that. One final note on this before we move on.

Chris Stap's Porzingis returns to the Knicks and Madison Square Garden on Thursday. Just when you thought that that reunion couldn't get any more exciting. The Knicks happened. Congratulations to Dan Devine and all Knicks fans everywhere. All right, that was the main event. Let's wrap up the show with our favorite segment sweeping the globe. It's time for good call, bad call. What a bold call here.

All right, good call, bad call. We're going to start with Janus. Haley, you brought this one up. Yonis was not happy over the weekend in the game against the thunder. And at halftime, he kicked a hole in a sign with the OKC logo on it. GCBC. Good call because he needed to get some momentum. Dan, he went full Mr. Cool. Cool.

man, what say you? G.C. Because after halftime, after the kick, he put up 24 and 10 in like 19 minutes. So, yes, G.C. When in doubt, kick things and then put up points. Jim Cunningham. Do you like when Yonnas smashes things? Of course.

Show some passion. That's all you like to see out there, right? You're a G. I'm a G.C. I'm a G. Sweet it up. Everybody thinks it's a good call. I want him to go out there and break stuff.

All right, next one for you, Nick Nurse, as I said, they were in town. They are in town in Los Angeles. and he has not done well with his coaching challenges. He won his first coaching challenge on Sunday in the Lakers game. He was so excited that during the game, he started hugging his coaching staff. And his coaches were in the process of, you know, coaching the game. So you could see him hugging. And then like they're just like pointing over the hug, which I thought was hilarious.

Haley, Nick Nurse and celebrating by hugging his coaching staff. GC, I mean, it was literally a good call, right? It was literally a good call. Also, it's cute. Team chemistry is most important above all else. So what they take off of play. I love Nick Nurse. Dan. G.C. I'm a big believer in hugging. I am a hugger personally. I think that men should be able to show their emotions and their feelings like that. So I like Nick Nurse being out there and comfortable enough with his own self to be able to do that in the middle of the game. Jim, you like a little on court affection? No, act like you've been there before. He's a BC on that one. I'm also a hugger. So I'm going to give him a GC on that. I love Nick Nurse. Carmelo Anthony asked if he wants to play again. Bleacher report headline, 2,000% make that the headline. Mello's still out here begging for a job, Haley O'Shaughnessy.

2,000%. Why that number? I don't want anything 2,000%. I would love to have kids in a family someday, but 100% I would. Like 2,000%. That's insane. And if you're going to stop there, why not make it 10,000%? Sure.

Get some attention. It feels like a BC from you. BC. Dan Devine. I kind of want to go with the Haley-Eoshaughnessy Memorial. It's really not for me to say. But instead, I'm going to go with G.C. Listen, Carmelo Anthony has had, through some thought through his own fault and somewhat

through a narrative that has been foisted upon him. He's had control of his ending taken away. Go for it, Carmelo. See if you can figure out how to end it on your own terms. I don't know who's going to sign you, but keep going for it. As many percents as possible. Jim Cunningham, Mello out here, still looking for. for employment. I agree with Haley. Doing anything over 100% and you just sound desperate.

Statistically impossible, that's a B.C. from him. I'm going to call, I'm going to say it's a good call because whatever percentage exists that he gets back into the league, I'm still hopeful that it's with the New York Knicks. Look, things are not going well for them. They can't get any worse. And at the very least, it would be a good distraction. Last one for you, because Isaac Lee is not here. This is from him. He submitted this. The Clippers wore their Buffalo Braves throwback jerseys last week against the Blazers. Good call or bad call Haley for them. Dustin knows off. I love them. I don't love the Clippers uniforms, their logo, their core design. I think it's all

over the place. I've hated that square little clippers things forever. The clip art is not good. No, I mean, it literally looks like clip art. So this is great. Please continue to try different things. And also it's sweet that they didn't go to the most recent city that they came from. They went all the way back to the beginning. By the way, the San Diego Clipper jerseys, they should dust those off because those are beautiful. Dan, on the Buffalo Braves jerseys. G.C., although I will note, because it's got the sort of diagonal stripes across the front and they were playing the trailblazers, I was a little bit weirded out by it. I'm like, it looks like they're wearing the throwback jerseys of the team they're playing. So there was a little dissonance to that, but I think it looked

awesome. I think Kawhi Leonard looks great in that jersey, and I think they should definitely be dusting those off more frequently. Jim, as our stand-in for Isaac as a Clippers fan. Where are you falling on this one? I'm with Dan. They look exactly like a Blazers jersey. It's kind of strange. So are you in or are you out on that? I'm in if the Blazers didn't know they were going to wear them and they just like showed up

and the game started and they had no idea they'd be wearing the same uniforms. It's kind of thrown off. Mental warfare. Mental warfare. We're going to call that a good call. I'm going to go good call as well because Isaac would want me to. So shouts to Isaac Lee. That was good call, bad call.

That was our show. I want to say thank you to Jim Conningham. I want to say thank you to Dan Devine and Haley O'Shaughnessy. I want to say thank you to all of. you for listening please rate and review us if you would be so inclined and don't forget to read all of our content on the ringer.com and listen to the ringer nba show on the ringer podcast network heat check will be back next week gang drink bye