The Ringer NBA Show - Do LeBron and Zion Want Out? Plus, Second-Half Story Lines. | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 23, 2022

Justin and Rob are joined by Chris Ryan this week to discuss all the LeBron news from All-Star Weekend and what it could mean for his future with the Lakers (5:50). Then they talk about the uncertainty surrounding Zion Williamson and his future in New Orleans (27:38). They wrap up by each talking about a second-half story line that they are looking forward to (41:31). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney Guest: Chris Ryan Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, I'm Evan Mack of the MacMania podcast with my two fellas. I'm Brooklyn's own, Flobo Voice. And I'm the Hall of Farmer, Jack Farmer. Follow and listen on Spotify and catch us on the Spotify Green Room after major wrestling events. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier. Joining me as always, Rob Mahoney. But a special guest in the third chair, the real OG group chatter over here.

Chris Ryan. What's up, man? What's up, guys? Good to see you. Yeah, welcome back. uh, while his is not with us, he's dealing with

a personal matter that, uh, I'll leave to him when he comes back. But we've got a full slate here of post all star, just chaos ensuing a lot of it based on what happened at all star. But first, it's a little bit of news that our guy,

Sham Sharania drops on us as we're about to record. He's back. And I'm not talking about Chris Ryan. I'm talking about Kyrie Irving. Uh, apparently the Vax mandates in New York might get lifted soon. And the near future, we're not totally sure.

but it sounds like Kyrie will be able to play in Brooklyn yet again. Chris, are you excited? Well, this is pretty much predicted by Eric Adams himself. He had done a press conference a couple weeks ago. I'm a pretty frequent watcher of Eric Adams press conferences because you just really never know what's going to happen. And I still really am into NYC City politics. And he had said basically, it doesn't make sense that hometown players have to be vaccinated, but people coming from outside and then he specified, and entertainers too

don't have to be vaccinated. But he said, it does seem unfair to just like kind of, not he didn't put it in this way, but like almost reward Kyrie for his intransigence over this matter. And so he said he was struggling with it.

But I think across the country right now, you're starting to see a lot of lifting of some of the restrictions and some of the mandates that we've been dealing with for the last couple of years. So I'll keep my person personal feelings about Kyrie's decision making to myself.

But yeah, I mean, it looks like we'll get a full strength, Brooklyn Nets. And I do kind of wonder whether or not Sean Marks knew this at the trade deadline, kind of had an understanding of what his lineup might look like come playoff time. Because we've all been just like, well, what are you going to do when you have to go play a playoff series? And Kyrie's only there three times. And it's just like, I think maybe Sean Marks had an inside line from City Hall that Kyrie was going to be available.

Well, as a general rule, we should know that. once Adam Silver starts talking about it publicly, the consensus has already been built. Like those channels have already been worked. The tea leaves have already been read. He is a guy who does not get out in front of things. I'll put it that way. He is speaking to things that have already happened. Except when it comes to banning reporters from the locker room.

He just seems to float those and see what happens. Again, I think that one maybe more or less has already happened. That's neither here nor there. That's a great point. Well, I do want to talk about the basketball implications of this. pretty quickly here because I guess this just means Kessler Edwards just won't have a starring role as he's had for the past couple weeks. But I mean, the nets are in serious jeopardy are falling into the play in tournament to the point where like Zach Cramm is going to unveil

our playoff odds tomorrow. And I believe the most likely scenario is that they are going to fall into the play in tournament. But Chris, like obviously this makes them better. But I do wonder like how much better are they going to be like, do you see just as a regular season team? Um, Let's just assume that KD, Ben Simmons don't come back for like three or four weeks, which is, I believe, is the latest intel that we have. Well, Ramona said Ben's close. So Ramona said Ben, so I wonder whether or not, because Zach Lodes reported, like, not reported, but suggested about a week or so ago that KD and Ben Simmons's return to the court

would be tied together. Yep. I wonder whether or not, because of that play-in tournament and chance you're talking about, Justin, like whether or not they bring guys back as they are available. rather than unveil like the Voltron at once. It's it gives me no end of joy to see the two preseason title like favorites in the play in tournament. I guess that means the plan tournament's working.

And for as much as we lament like the regular season not mattering, it matters now because now these guys have to play like the last 28 games or whatever. They have to play their asses off. Yeah, the one thing I'll say is I keep hearing people talk about how the nets are better. with Ben Simmons than James Hardin? And no, that's not like objectively false. Like, they were absolutely incredible when all of them were together.

And even when they didn't have Kyrie and James Hardin had one hamstring, they most beat the eventual NBA champions. Like, this team was a monster. It just didn't work out chemistry-wise. Well, they're better with Ben Simmons than uninterested, checked out James Hardin, which is what they had.

You know, it's the same thing with Philly. Like, James Hardin is much better than nobody playing where Ben Simmons should play, you know? I will say, Do you guys think that this makes the number one seed in both conferences a little bit of a poison chalice? If you get you finish at the top of your conference and then you either get the Lakers or the nets in a playing situation? Well, the only problem is you could still play them if you're in two. Yeah, that's true.

And so it's like if you want to tank all the way to three to try to dodge the nets, I guess you could do that. But I think you're just going to have to take the lumps as they come and hope that you end up playing like the hornets or the hawks or something instead. Yeah, there are going to be a lot of last week shenanigans going on, like a mere coffee going for 60 points, going for 81 in Staples Center, crypto.com Arena, sorry. All right, let's get to the docket at hand here. In other news, in much splashier, like take over the All-Star style news, LeBron James just had a bit of a heater over the weekend back in Cleveland. If you're listening to this podcast, you're probably familiar with the beats by now. but he, in the span of a couple days, hours even, suggested that the door wasn't closed and his return to Cleveland,

said outright after implying it for many, many months and years that he was going to play with Bronny when he gets to the NBA. If he gets the NBA, we can talk about that later, perhaps, and pretty much praised every other GM in every other sport, except for Rob Polinka. And there's been a lot of follow-ups after this, but my favorite came today from Bill Orm of the Athletic and at one point in his piece, he writes,

the situation with the Lakers is tense enough that one source close to the Lakers likened it to the early days of a war. So, so Chris, I asked, does this feel like we're in the midst of Russia, Ukraine abroad or at our home right now? No,

we're in year two of every LeBron team. We've seen this TV show before. It's on syndication. Yeah, you know, my favorite thing about this, I adore this. There's just like, there's so many different ways to read it.

But the thing that I love is that as an international football fan, I'm very familiar with the phenomenon of when a player or a coach during like an international break goes and speaks to his home country's media and usually is super, super candid about what's going on in a way that they are not with, say, the English media if they play in the Premier League. So this just happened with Tottenham's manager, Antonio Conte, who has now been banned from speaking to Italian media. Because every time he goes and speaks to Italian media, he's like Tottenham fucking suck. So we should ban. Jason Lloyd is what you're saying. LeBron can't speak to Cleveland.com anymore.

But I liked the idea that LeBron was doing this and in like this old-fashioned way didn't think the news would travel back to Los Angeles. You know, like that we wouldn't get our hands on this. of course he knew that. Of course, that was the point. But there was something kind of like adorable about him being like, now that I'm home in Cleveland out of that crazy big city over in Hollywood, let me get that you guys, what's really

going on. And while I'm at it, Sam Presti, less need, like, let's do like front office sports. Well, I think the big question here is, is LeBron angling for a return? Or is this purely a leverage play to light a fire under the Lakers

organization to do what he wants? Rob, do you have like a sense of what might be going on here? It seems more like the latter. I do think a Cleveland return in some form is in the cards at some point. I don't think he's, I don't think it's eminent. I don't think he's really angling for that right now. To me, it's a lot more about what future picks are you going to trade over the summer? How are you going to resolve this Russell Westbrook situation?

Basically prove to me that your franchise is worthy of me staying here. It is kind of the gauntlet that he's thrown on the table. And the gauntlet that he throws periodically, as Chris alluded to, pretty much at every stop. This is syndicated TV. This is this is comfort TV for guys like us who have been through these blog minds before. You know, I'm, uh, I'm feeling weirdly sentimental about like the passive aggressive LeBron press conference just because you feel the heat index climbing. Absolutely. And I, I do wonder as I look at the young stars in the league, when LeBron goes, and he's got years left, he's still one of the best players in the league now, are we just going to lose this kind of

passive aggressive sermon on the Mount communication style because I don't see any of the young guys who really communicate this way. Yeah, no, they just back channel and try to get out of their current situation after like two years. I mean, I don't want to flip to the Zion Williams

and situation right away, but like it does feel like a trickle-down effect where LeBron used to like take his time and like actually put opt out contract into opts out into his contract. Whereas now like people don't even worry They just get as much money as possible, then they just force their way out of situations. The answer is we do.

We're just not going to want to hear it because it's Kyrie. It's going to be like, we used to be on the straight talk express, but now we're in InfoWorks. And now it's like what leverage is like what international incident is Kyrie using as is like a leverage to like get something else out of the nets or wherever he winds up playing next. I just don't like the distinction between LeBron treating us like pawns and Kyrie telling us we're There's something a little too literal about Kyrie's approach, I think. No, Rob, you missed it. It's simpletons now.

My mistake. My mistake. Well, I think what's interesting is how much the Lakers seem to be pushing back privately and I guess via their typical like cohorts in the media just like publicly as well. Like Chris, are you surprised that you're getting so much counter narrative? Like this, the Cavs did this. Let's be sure. But it took four years.

This is now what? Three years of LeBron? Yeah, I mean, am I surprised that the Lakers are letting it be known that LeBron was a partner in, if not at least signing off on all the moves that they made? Yeah, like, I think that the Lakers are probably one of the few teams out there that I would imagine see themselves on the level of brand recognition with LeBron. You know, LeBron made the Cavs. Like, with all due respect to what the heat had accomplished before LeBron,

like LeBron made the heat. like LeBron is not making the Lakers. The Lakers are an institution before and after LeBron. And in some ways, and I think in a lot of like truly hardcore Laker fans' eyes, like LeBron is kind of, he's a real Laker and everything, but like he's not Kobe.

You know what I mean? He doesn't mean to that franchise what Kobe meant to that franchise. And I'm sure, honestly, like, I'm on like a couple of group threads with like some Laker fans. Like they're not particularly impressed with this. You know what I mean?

Like for as much as they hate what the team is doing this year, I don't think they like the idea that LeBron's holding them hostage. It's kind of like the LeBron thing every time is he's like a roofer who does a bad job. And then he's like, what are you going to do about this roof? You know, he's like, I don't know who did this roof, but you got to fix this. And it's like, dude, it's your roof. Like I don't know what to tell you. Like, so I'm not necessarily like team Belinka here.

I think that probably what's getting lost in the. opaque nature of the way he's communicating is everybody is assuming he's talking about Russell Westbrook and that deal, whereas maybe he's more upset about them not breaking the bank for Caruso or them not, like, maybe Kendrick Nunn was not the right choice, or maybe they should have traded THT, like when the value is a little bit higher. Like, maybe there are some marginal moves that they made. And meanwhile, you look around and you see like Kuzma tearing it up for the wizards, You see Buddy, like, doing a decent job for the Pacers and, like, probably would have fit very nicely

into the collection of, like, players that the Lakers championship team had. And you kind of, you kind of see that that's where the Lakers are probably falling flat. And he can do that not just because, as you mentioned, Chris, he doesn't mean to the Lakers what guys like Kobe did, but the opposite is true, too. Like, the Lakers mean something to LeBron. They mean being able to play in Los Angeles.

They mean being able to establish a home base. in that way, but he can leave at any time. You know, like the time for establishing ties to an organization, that's like your first and second contract in the NBA. After that, it's anything goes. It's wherever is most convenient for you, wherever is easiest, wherever makes the most sense

at that point in your career. LeBron is at that stage, like it or not, and he can be out the door pretty much at any time. Like we're going to talk about his free agency and whether he's going to extend and all that. If he decides he's done before that point, he's done before that point. Yeah, it is interesting for LeBron to go to the Lakers and basically treat them like a vessel in the way that he did when he returned to the calves, right?

Like all the stuff about returning home aside, like that team had a lot of raw assets for which he could build a championship contender. The Lakers had the same at the very least in young guys that they could trade in order to bring Anthony Davis back there. And it's interesting the Lakers kind of pushing back and being like, were the Lakers? Like, we don't do this. When in actuality, like, I think LeBron covered up a lot of the flaws with, in that franchise. I mean, I go back to the idea that in order to clean things up, they hired Kobe's agent and Magic Johnson, right? And like, they didn't really do like a fantastic front office job in order to really bring this team back to prestige. Like, I think maybe they think, like,

LeBron is to credit for a lot of that. But now we're kind of getting, you're seeing this like tradeoff here where essentially LeBron has brought the Clutch Enterprise into the Lakers, right? In a way that he hadn't before with the Cavs, like Tristan Thompson, J.R. Smith benefited from LeBron being there contractually. They played heartball and they got the best deals for them. But I guess, Rob, I'm curious if after bringing Anthony Davis over, after making a lot of these moves, if you think LeBron could just up and abandon the Lakers in the same way he did the Cavs.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, the agency ties are there. They're pronounced. They're conspicuous when a guy like THT gets resigned for big money, certainly. I don't think it's going to prevent him from going where he needs to go. You know, LeBron is not only just one of the most important figures in NBA history, but one of the most important figures in that agency's formation in history.

If he decides, like, this isn't the right spot for him, I think that's just whatever he says goes. The thing about the Lakers is interesting, though, and whether they certainly act and operate as if they are different from these other organizations in catering to stars, in opening themselves up to that kind of control from an agency, from a superstar, whatever powers that be, I'm not sure they really are. You know, they still invest in superstars as partners all the time and have throughout their

recent history to varying degrees. It's just, you know, when the time comes, they'll also trade shack if they have to. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, I mean, like, like, it's a, it's an interesting thought experiment to consider, like, what this Lakers team would look like if Steve Ballmer owned them. You know, like, what would the Lakers look like if they had the relationship to their luxury tax that the clippers or the nets do where they're just like yeah you know what while we have

a championship window with one of the two or three greatest players of all time like money is no object because we'll have three parades we will mint yet another era of lakers dominance we will continue for another generation of two or two as like an internationally recognizable sports brand so let's just break the bank and if that means going into our pockets for crusoe or whatever hard cap aside or whatever like the implications would have been like clearly they could have made that work. And look like there is something a little old fashioned about the Lakers. There is like a family business element to it. There are still like Kurt and Linda Rambis rumors around. Like this is not, you know, when you see LeBron talking about about Sam Presti and Les Need and stuff like that in

this press conference, like that's not, it's not just Polinkie's talking about. I think he's talking about all the cooks in the kitchen that are still over there at the crypt. Are Kurt and Linda Rambis an incredible hang? Do they just send like the best Christmas card every year? I don't understand how they became such prominent power players here. I think they're genie people if I had to guess. I mean, I'm not like a- They're absolutely genie people. You know, and everybody needs somebody. You know, everybody wants people who are like their inner circle. So it's like, I don't know, but it's fascinating. They throw great key parties. Yeah. The cucumber sandwiches, oh my God, you wouldn't believe.

it. Yeah. I mean, it's weird that I feel slightly sympathetic for the Lakers and like the Lakers brass, but I guess this is where we are where it's like I don't think there are many winners or many sympathetic figures, but you kind of feel a little bit for the Lakers in the same way you did the Cavs simply because like LeBron did force things. And if you were to believe some of the reports and boy, there are a lot of them these days about how it was LeBron's idea. It was Clutch's idea in order to trade for Russell Westbrook. Like, yeah, you could be like, well, this, you kind of made your bed. you do have to line it. On the other hand, though,

it does seem like they're drawing a hard line in the same way the Cavs did over that draft pick that ultimately became Colin Sexton. Like, I don't know what the difference is going to be holding on to this 2027 first round pick to the point where Brian Winhorst and others have reported that, like,

they wouldn't even consider a pick swap in order to make the wall for Westbrook, like, tradeoff. And, like, to me, that seems like, I don't know what you're getting out of there. You're just drawing a hard line just to draw a hard line. I don't know. Maybe that's also though, like, that that's like a little bit like you've been in the foxhole too long. Like we're talking about Wall. Like Wall's played less than like Simmons and, you know, like, I don't know what they would have gotten back from Wall. And I think that there's a possibility that that like those guys are still sort of stood by Russ. You know what I mean? Like I don't think that there's been any kind of like mutiny when it comes to like the only person who's really not stood by Russ. in, you know, is vulgar in terms of like where he, whether he plays Russ during the end of games.

Like for the most part, like, while there have been rumblings about like, we need to like adjust or whatever, like those guys haven't been like this was a giant mistake. Russ, I wish we could get out from under Russ. He's just not listening to the coaching staff and doesn't do things the way we want over here.

Well, that's the final bridge to burn, right? Like, that's what you do when you're cutting off Russell Westbrook's playoff share and he's just ejected from the team. Until that point, I think LeBron and AD specifically, specifically have to put on a certain face as far as what Westbrook's role is, how important

he is to the team. They have to continue to invest in that stuff. And that's the Russell Westbrook conundrum because he's never going to really dog it. At least not, at least not like superficially, like the way like you can say Hardin does or something. Like Westbrook, for better or for worse, like kind of goes 100 miles per hour every time. And maybe he doesn't try his hard on defense or he gets like blown off the court on defense. But like, you can't say that Russell Westberg didn't give effort. And that's like still like the number one thing that's identifiable as like a crime in sports, you know?

One of the 75 best players in history, baby. Let me ask you guys this because LeBron is on the verge of if he does force a trade, let's say in a doomsday scenario, like what? His fourth team and fifth situation? Like, would we think of LeBron differently if he team jumps again? Because personally, I've always been on the case where, like, you know, a lot of these situations have degraded to the point where they aren't championship caliber. Even the heat run, teeter on the verge of being a pretty bad team considering Dwayne Wade's health situation, right? Although, like, probably a little bit better than some of the holes that he left behind in Cleveland.

But if you were to do so again, I don't know. I'm starting to waver in that belief. Chris, would you feel differently about LeBron if he jumped you? not even just Cleveland. Let's say he goes to, I don't even know, the Knicks. Would you feel differently about his legacy? So don't you think the most likely thing that happened will be that he extends with the Lakers for a year,

becomes a free agent, and then chooses to go play wherever some plays, which will be crazy when LeBron goes and plays for, like, the Pacers, for on the mid-level exception, because they got Bronny. Like, this will be a, like unreal when that happens. Like not,

I, leaving aside to like the father playing with the son, but him just being like, getting a chance to play with my son would be like money would not come into that conversation. So that would mean that like LeBron could just play for anyone who happens to get Brony. And that's, that's honestly too exciting to care about any of this other stuff. The question is,

is whether or not he's going to be like, I need to go play with Josh Giddy for 12 months before that happens. Or I need to go play. You got to build those reps. You got to get the chemistry. with giddy. I know. Or whether or not he's like, you know, yes, it would be really sweet if I went back to Cleveland and got one more with Mowbly and Garland before I go on my father's son pilgrimage. To me, it like, it doesn't really matter. Like I, you know, like this kind of happens

to players towards the end of their careers. Like, they usually like have like a little bit of a wandering spirit. Like once, once things kind of pass them by, it hasn't really passed LeBron by. and he brings obviously so much of a gravitational field with him that it's going to irrevocably change whatever franchise he winds up with. But I'm not really like, I'm not really like, like, scandalized by the idea that he would leave the Lakers and that he would have like kind of like a traveling circus. What's really to lose at this point?

You know, like when he left Cleveland the first time, that was a thing. And, you know, if Janus were to leave, if Yokic were to leave, like these one franchise guys who started their careers in one place, when they, if and when they would leave would be a big deal. Once you've already changed teams a couple times, it just feels like business as usual to me. I don't know. Maybe I'm just like so far removed

from the like set up roots and really mean something to a franchise era at this point. But LeBron can play for as many teams as he wants. He's one of the best players ever. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens when he's, because like, I think individually, he's not what he used to be, but he's not like bad, right? Like it's not like, Dwayne.

Wade towards the end of his career or something like that where you're like, oh, man, this is kind of tough to watch. But if it seems like he's no longer able to galvanize a team and make them a finals contender, which we're only like, let's say that it doesn't happen for them this season. Maybe they end their season a little bit more respectably than they are where they are now. But if it's just like, LeBron can't single-handedly will a team to the finals anymore. And if he can't do it with Anthony Davis as his teammate, like I don't think he can, then like that changes like what getting LeBron on your team means. It's a huge box office draw, obviously, but it's not necessarily like you're like if you, if you sign LeBron, you're at least

in the conference finals next year. Yeah. Are you gutting your team for 38, 39 year old LeBron? And it's going to be an open question if that does happen because LeBron, like you said, doesn't have these opt-outs. He actually signed an extension recently through the 2023, uh-oh, well, up until the 2023 off season. So on August 4th, 2023. He's able to assign an extension again, but like because of his age and because of the way contracts work, he really can't get the same sort of levers that he used to. And so maybe he is stuck where he is.

I guess the kind of a major button that he could be looming over is like whether or not to trade Anthony Davis. Like, do we think like he would ever get to that point, Rob? I can't imagine why. Like, what else do they have to do? I guess my question. This is the problem. them with like the, would LeBron eject

conversation? Should he extend conversation? And ultimately when we talk about the Lakers pick, why it gets so complicated is like they just don't have that many ways to get dramatically better over the next two years other than pulling some of these levers. So I get why the AD conversation comes up.

I just don't see any better better fitting, more complimentary player out there than Anthony Davis at this point. And when those two guys are on the floor together, they're still a really good team. They just have this Russell Westbrook-sized is logjam that's really clogging things up. But if they can resolve that situation,

trade one of those future picks for somebody who is better than John Wall, I think there's still a good team in here somewhere. Maybe not a championship team, but certainly a good one. Yeah. I just think Davis's injuries and his unavailability and just the fact that he hasn't been able to take the reins in the way that LeBron had hoped for and had been messaging since Davis was traded for contributes to this problem.

problem, right? I don't think Davis is the problem, but he definitely contributes to it. And if he's the only one to move, like, I think LeBron's going to face a really interesting decision of whether or not to want to just, like, get rid of one of Clutches, like, prime, like, assets here. I don't know if it's up to him. I think, I think that there's, like, a lot of forces at work here. First of all, like, if you're the Lakers, like, LeBron gets traded before he a D, right? That's, that's the cold decision, right? Well, I mean, I'm sure you do it in, like, in concert with him, but, like, LeBron is, LeBron is closer to the end than AD is.

And for all of AD's durability issues, like, AD is still a unicorn. AD is still capable of, like, remarkable things on the floor. AD probably, like, with two, like, why not, like, if you're, if you're talking about going nuclear, go nuclear with, like, the unexpected option, right? Go do it where, you know, you trade LeBron. Tell, trade LeBron to Oklahoma City for, like, all those picks.

And a couple of Capfellers, like, do, do, do something to like rebuild while AD still in his prime. I think if you trade LeBron, then the trade request from Davis falls immediately. Like I think that is where the clutch trickleback works. I don't know how much like does Clutch move collectively? Like if they do, if so, like all the power to them. But like maybe Clutch should have an NBA team.

There should just be like, here's the expansion team. The Clutch. You guys worry about this. Set up to Kamens. Right. Just the mothership going to a new planet. setup shop. Yeah.

From there. That's right. All right. Well, let's turn now to Anthony Davis's old team, which is dealing with similar problems with a player who was way earlier in his contract. Zion Williamson has become officially a bit of an issue for the New Orleans Pelicans to

the point where... Officially. You're like a BBC broadcaster. I mean like, a spot of weather of London and it's like cyclones hitting. Yeah. So the big event. I guess was C.J. McCollum revealing to TNT over the All-Star break that, like, he hadn't

talked to Williamson yet. And it's been like what? It's been at least a week or two. As you'd expect at least like, hey, welcome to the team text message. It doesn't take that much. And so that kind of set off a trickle-down effect where a lot of people were weighing in, including JJ Reddick, his former teammate, who as Scott Kushner of Nola.com mentioned, is probably the last person you'd expect to critique Zion, considering he is a Duke alum, as well as, Zion is a CAA member and very much in the anti-David Griffin camp. So, like, if he is attacking Zion and calling him a detached teammate, I think there are some issues here.

Well, plus Zion's a friend of the pot. As someone who's appeared on JJ Reddick's podcast, isn't there a sacred oath against us bashing Chris Ryan behind his back for example? Right. We would never do that to Waz. Let's start here, Chris. How big of a deal with us? I think it's really big.

I didn't think it was, and now I do. I think it's like really big. First of all... Because of my BBC intro. No, well, I just think first of all, we're on the precipice of this guy's career going up in smoke. So between whatever's going on with his foot,

his vanishing act, honestly. And like, you can get into like whether or not it's old fashioned for injured players to still be around the team. But I think it's all part of like a larger picture with Zion, which is just like, it's going on with this guy. Like, like, does he want to...

I mean, maybe he doesn't want to be. in New Orleans, but he's like in risk of like his career is on the line here now, like I think. And it's very, very rare to see ex players like this, like somebody so immediately X, like JJ, who's like still within the realm of like you could bring JJ off the street for a playoff run. Like he's still in locker rooms kind of guy. I don't feel like JJ would have said what he said without kind of running it by some of the people in New Orleans. Like players, people, like,

I just don't feel like he would just throw a Molotov cocktail like that if he didn't think that it would be okay with other people, honestly. Because, like, I know he's on first take, but JJ's good. Like, JJ doesn't have to get into the middle of, like, a huge firestorm over this. So obviously, like, I think there's some truth to what he was saying. I think that there's some truth to, like, look, putting aside Zion being hurt, putting aside whether or not he wants to be in New Orleans, putting aside whether or not he and David Griffin

get along because JJ and David Griffin go and get along. There's just like obviously a code of conduct among NBA players that's like text a guy when he gets traded to your team. And it wouldn't be a big deal of Zion like hadn't ever reached out to Tony Snell or something in this deal. But C.J. McCollum is an established player. He's a guy who's ostensibly being brought in to be your partner in this. That's also the president of the players association.

Like this is a guy with cloud who moves stuff around. It just seemed weird. It seems conspicuous in a way that some of the other Zion stuff didn't, to your point, Chris, where like this is a small thing. And I mean, who am I kidding? We love to make mountains of molehills in NBA media. It's kind of what we do. But this feels like a thing.

This feels like a player who is uniquely disconnected from the team he's supposed to be, if not playing for, certainly like kind of reporting to work for involved in. Like there are ways you can be involved with an organization without even being around. even if you're off rehabbing on your own, even if you're off seeing your own doctors, all that stuff is totally understandable in the modern MBA. But you can't text your new teammate.

You can't reach out in any capacity as an ambassador for the organization to do anything at all, especially when you're not on the court, especially in knowing you're not going to be with that guy in practice. That seems to exacerbate it to me, if anything. Yeah, I mean, it went from, like,

oh, is this guy going to have like a kind of injury-laden, maybe like in B'd's first few years? where it's like, oh, we're not sure if his body's gonna hold up, but like, man, when he's on the floor,

it's really a miracle. It's amazing to watch. So, like, I don't know, is this like, Fultz territory? You know, like,

I don't really know what's going on, but like, obviously nobody knows what's going on because Zion is not doing what LeBron does, which is, like, LeBron, like, holds court

and talks about, like, what's on his mind and, like, how he's feeling about stuff. Now, obviously, LeBron's 40 and Zion's in his early 20s. But there's, there's so many,

like, different permutations of what could happen from here where you have to start to wonder whether or not this will be a revolutionary moment in NBA history if this guy does not sign his extension. If it's so bad for him, right? So he's due his max

deal what this summer, right? You can sign an extension this summer, yeah. And let's say, let's say the pelicans are like, well, we don't want to go all in on that, right? Because what have you showed us? Like, you've barely been able to stay on the court for the first three years of your career.

if they start hedging a little bit, like, does Zion take that as like, well, then why would I, you know, I'm a number one pick. Like,

I should obviously be here. I should be paid paid like it. I mean, well, we could see some like, really truly, like, kind of paradigm shifting stuff happening

with Zion's career that could impact, like, the years to come for the NBA. I mean, we had talked about it with like, oh, what if Luca gets like a little annoyed about,

like, Dallas is not bringing guys in around him, but Luca sign. Like, I mean, like, that happened. But I,

anything could happen with Zion and I wouldn't be surprised. You're saying that Gail Benson needs that Glenn Taylor, Andrew Wiggins, handshake. Will you promise us you're going to try harder kind of agreement here? Well, look, I mean, there's been, like, I think Embed's contract, for instance, is like very incentive latent, right? Which I think he's going to hit all of them and everything.

But there were some protections in Embedges deal, I think that were about like, let's just, in case you can never play again. or your back gives out or something like that. I don't know whether or not that might be a model for Zion going forward, but like, who knows? I mean, Justin, have you heard anything about this? Yeah, I mean, I think the more interesting ripple effect of this is how the Pelicans have responded and will respond because I don't think it's news that Zion doesn't want to be there.

Like, short of wearing that that's all folks T-shirt that Anthony Davis passed down to him, like I think it's pretty clear he does not want to be there for the long term. But the Pelicans not putting them on the promotional material for their season tickets for next year is a little petulant, I will say, but telling that they're at the very least at the point where they're trying to send a message to Zion that like we can move on without you and we are prepared to do so. I don't think it will be good for them in the long call. I think they'll probably just find themselves in kind of the loop they were in before they got even Davis where it's just like Eric Gordon and Chris came in in that really sad photo. Like that will be their future. But like I do wonder for at the point where a what like Chris is saying, do they even offer him a max extension? And if they do, is it going to be so incentive laden? Is it going to be more about bonuses and it won't be just a straight max? Do they wait an entire off season? So they don't give it to him before next season. They wait an entire season. And then they open themselves up to restricted free agency, which then opens themselves up to people tossing in random clauses, player options before they want to, which probably. also hurts them, or do they hit the big button and do they trade him before they even get to this point, knowing that like if they sign him to anything, he's just going to want out anyway. So like, I think they're in the no-win situation here unless they really do some damage control. I don't see them ending in a good situation with Zion, which is really, really sad to say not only about the Pelicans,

but about the NBA as a whole, if you land the number one draft, the next superstar in the league, the next LeBron James, allegedly, before all the injuries. And you only get two seasons of him before he has pretty much messes. He doesn't want to be there at all. Isn't it crazy that they even have to think about this? They're like with a player this good, the Pelicans do have to go through that calculus that you're laying out. Like, how much are we going to insure this?

How much are we going to put in bonuses? How much are we going to protect ourselves from the possibility this guy does not have a long and productive NBA career to the point where I think that, you know, It would be one thing if it were just the injuries and they were just talking about those possibilities. But every time he's been out, it's only just gotten weirder and weirder and weirder in terms of his interest and investment in anything related to the Pelicans to the point that I don't know how you navigate this. But I think the safest route still, even at this stage, is to invest in Zion as long as you

can with whatever protections you can get. It still get the longest deal on the table. It still try to beat this thing before restructions. free agency because if he has the opt-out, he's just going to buy it his time in a different way. And so if you have the ability to keep him under contract, even if it means knowing that you're going to eventually trade him or probably have to trade him, I still think that's the way you have to go. Yeah. In a lot of ways, this is a much bigger issue. I don't think the pelicans are innocent here. I think the hiring of Stan Van Gunney was a catastrophe, and that's totally

on David Griffin. Like, the players there were talking as if they had just been through a war. Like, They had been through the shit where Josh Hart was admitting, like, I didn't like playing basketball. And a year later, he's playing under Willie Green and basically, like, showing up after he'd been traded to the game, to a Pelicans game with, like, teammates. A Brady, A jersey on. Yeah. Right. And I do one, I wonder how much that contributed just to the overall, just malaise and just like how shitty the situation is Zion has become. But I do think something is broken here.

And I do wonder if this is really a tipping point just for players asking out in general. because we just went through the whole Ben Simmons. And this is way worse than Ben Simmons. Like Zion hasn't played in an entire year. He's only played two of the seasons he's been available for. And like while he's been great when he's on the court, like he's basically just holding a team hostage based on preferences at this point. Well, it's also just a bigger deal because he means more to the Pelicans that almost any other

star means to their team in the league. like he is their hope. This isn't Simmons like wanting to leave. It's like Simmons and Embed both deciding they want to leave at the same time. Not because Zion's as good

as both those guys combined, but like they need him. They need him to go anywhere right now. And it was like, it was kind of a miracle that, well, a miracle, but it was against all odds

that they got him, that they got lucky enough to replace one franchise player with another. It was pretty amazing that they were able to pair him with somebody as good as Ingram. And shout out to Ingram,

man. Like, it's been pretty crappy there for the last couple of seasons and he's still playing his ass off. Like, you know, like, and I think Willie Green is a good coach, like, considering everything that that team has had to deal with and all the turnover. Like, they're, they're not good, but they are, they aren't as bad as I thought they were going to be without Zion and with, like, the roster that they had.

And, yeah, like, is it, is, am I wrong in saying no one has actually, like, seen him? Like, have you guys seen a picture of Zion from, like, the last six months? No, he disappeared at one point to Portland to rehab, which was an interesting choice. Is that a Nike thing? Is it like? I assume so. And I think in February was the last update we had, but no, I don't think anyone scouting C.J. McCollum. Like that was like this part of the long play, you know? They sent him on advance. They're just cramming Zion into those little scout seats in the crowd. He actually did text them, but he had to delete all his texts and throw away his phone.

Yeah. Well, let me ask you this before we just flipped to our last section here. would you trade him for anything? Like, Rob, is there like a package, like a reasonable trade where you could convince yourself like, you know what? We made a go with this. He doesn't want to be here.

Let's just catch him in. The trick is finding a place where he does want to be that also has all the stuff. Because if you could just trade him anywhere and some team's going to take a chance on him, at this point, given everything we know about Zion, I think I would take the Thunder Kitchen sink

of let's just get as many picks as we conceivably can and as many of these young players as we like who aren't nailed down and try to make a go of something in a, you know, a reboot. What a fuck you to send him to O'KC after he doesn't want to be in New Orleans. I like it.

I would probably do, I would probably hold on to him until the last possible second. I would probably hold on to him to win. It's basically what happened with the Sixers and Fultz, where it's just like you cannot give up on a number one pick until basically I mean you know

and Volz was playing decently before his knee injury and everything but like you just basically can't afford to see a number one pick go to another team and make you pay for it right well he's also not a guy you trade for like a fringe all star and two future first like it's got to be

a bowl me over amazing return package even at this stage because there's still so much to like and build around and how he plays when he plays just will he play for the pelicans for the foreseeable future, that's the big variable. All right, let's flip to a little bit more positivity here. We're going to look ahead to the second half starts tomorrow, Thursday.

We're going to run through what we're looking forward to in the second half of the season. Rob, why don't you start first? Because I think yours is the most optimistic of the bunch. Well, I was going to say second half in heavy air quotes. There's like 20 to 25 games left at this point. Unofficial second half. Yeah. My big question is, can Luca Donchich be?

a one-man playoff spoiler. And I say one-man somewhat facetiously because the model that Dallas has working right now, and really the reason they were kind, that you could justify the Chrisaps-Porsingus trade, is a time-tested model of superstar offensive creator, high-level defense. Those models have had a lot of success, at least advancing in the playoffs,

maybe not contending, maybe not going all the way, but that's a model that can bounce some really good teams out of there. And Luca is a player who, if not for basically a legendary performance from Kauai Leonard, would have already been to the second round by now. That makes me a little concerned for some of these other teams that could play the Mavs, especially in the first round. Like I'm looking at Utah at four and thinking if Dallas is five, the jazz are in real trouble. That is a matchup they should want absolutely nothing to do with.

And some of that starts with just the way Lucas play has come on over the course of the season. As Mark Cuban has said, as he's gotten in shape, as he's sharpened his intellect, I think he said he's street smart. He's smart, like in street smart, not in, you know, Harvard MBA grads smart. I don't know what any of that means. But he is in better shape. He's playing incredible basketball.

The last four games leading into the All-Star break was averaging 42 points, 12 rebounds, seven assists. That'll do. That's pretty good. And B-desk. B-desk, you could say. So I think they have a,

the Mavs have a very interesting case as a playoff opponent for some of these teams in the first race. round. They need to prove a few things over the, over these last 20 games, but I kind of like where they are just as a team that could just ruin somebody's season. I really want to see if this defense is real in the playoffs. And like if it is like I take my hat off to kid and everything. Like that's that is an incredible turnaround and I don't really materially see their personnel wise. It's not like they like radically changed what they were doing, but he obviously figured out a way

to get a very, very, very, very workable defense in there, which is like not something I ever thought I would be saying about the Mavericks and then the next couple of years. Yeah, Rob, do you want to apologize to Jason kid quickly? I will apologize. Does Carlisle just not coach defense then? Like, what does that mean?

Well, over the last like five years, especially, Carlisle just leaned more and more into offense. I think in like the way that as we all get older in life, we just are saying, fuck it. I'm just going to do the things I love. And Rick Carlisle loves offense. He loves small scoring guards.

He loves offense. And he loved, you know, prioritizing in his rotations, guys who could score, guys who could space over guys who could guard their position. And I think what you have now in Dallas is a case top to bottom. Luca sometimes included, I would say largely on the fence, of guys who can just be solid where they are, be solid in their assignments. Some guys are a little overtaxed.

You know, Dorian Finney Smith is Astigarred incredible offensive players when he's just like a very versatile defender. So he gets a wide variety of those guys. but their defense has been really good and really good in ways that's like habit building not, oh, we brought in the defensive player of the year

and now we have a good defense because he's propping us up. It's like it's cohesive, it is balanced across the roster. The question is now that they're playing so much smaller all the time, can they defensive rebound the way they need to? Can they do like all these size related things

that a guy like Chris Hapts-Sorzingis for as much of an asterisk as you want to put on him as like a 7-3 guy who's not really 7-3? he still was much bigger than Maxi Kleba and Dwight Powell and Dorian Finney Smith. Yeah, I'll be interesting to see if the Mavs can overtake like the Jazz to become the four-seat. Like definitely trending in different directions.

One going one way, one going the other way. Chris, do you want to go with yours? Yeah, so I wanted to do the Hardin-Simmons thing, but I wanted to look at it from a different angle, which is does this really matter? I obviously will be intently watching like every Sixers game here on out. I watch as much nets as I can. It's going to be the most fascinating tactical chemistry experiment in the NBA, probably with a lot of teams at the top of these conferences, you know, more or less set in

their ways. But, you know, looking back over the history, the recent history of the league, Elise, like you go back to like the Mutumbo trade in a 1 to the Sixers, Rashid to the Pistons, you know, maybe Markasol to Toronto. But like midseason trades don't really swing conference finals or finals. often. Like, these are not necessarily, like, ready to bake ideas when you bring in significant additions to a roster in the middle of the season. And we're seeing this with two powerhouses in the Eastern Conference. These guys are not role players. Like Simmons and Hardin are very, very special

unique talents in their own way. So I'm kind of curious to see whether or not this actually changes anything. And whether or not almost everybody you talk to is just like, yeah, you know what? Until I see otherwise, it's Milwaukee. And then I think there's a growing contingent of people being like, man, like Miami is this good

and their best five players have only played an hour together this season. Like when they get healthy, it's over. Then you've got like bullish Boston people or bullish Chicago people or bullish Cleveland people or whatever. I'm kind of wondering whether or not this is going to be more of a dress rehearsal

for next season for the Sixers in the nets and whether we're going to see that continuity is really the key here in the home stretch and in the playoffs. Because it's like, Doc's good, but I don't know if Doc can like draw up a new offense for the Sixers. And I think that's what's going to need to happen.

Well, the good news is James Hardin is kind of his own offense sometimes, like it or not. For sure. And if he staggers them, like it's very intoxicating to imagine like an Embed Hardin team, an Embed team and a Hardin team that he can play around with. And that's certainly better than his bench mob lineups that are like, honestly, like, just,

they're just, they just kill this, kill like so many games for the Sixers is watching when Docs got five reserves out there. But I'm really, really fascinated to see about this. Like, Ben Simmons hasn't played competitive basketball since the Hawks series. Like, I don't know what Ben Simmons is going to look like. And I don't know what he's going to look like with Kyrie and Katie. And I just wonder whether or not, like, the, the Bucks, he, and bulls are just in better situations

because they are familiar with playing with one another. I think they probably are in better situations, but I think it's also important to remember that there are ways for this trade to matter beyond the Sixers or the Nets winning the title. Right? Like if they knock even just one of those teams out, that changes the shape of the whole deal.

If the Sixers knock out the Celtics in the first round, they're beating the Bulls in the second round, and neither of those teams are able to make it to the conference finals, I think sometimes we discount the way that that changes what those teams are going to do in the future in the offseason because they're frustrated from not advancing the way they wanted to, or the players on those teams leaving or wanting out or changing how they feel about their team because they didn't go as far as they thought they would. That stuff matters, but also, you know, Daryle Mory talked about this on the Rights to Ricky Sanchez podcast, which is an unbelievable interview. I'd recommend anyone go listen to it. But part of the reason why these midseason and deadline deals don't usually make as big as big,

big in impact is because guys like James Harden don't get traded at the deadline basically ever. Yeah. Immediately one of the best players to ever be moved this late in the season. And so if there is going to be an exceptional case, it's probably going to be this one. Yeah, the best player since he was traded the year before. No, I think another comp to bring up with the ones that Chris mentioned is also the Carmel Anthony trade, kind of as a counterpoint to this because in doing so, the Knicks completely gutted their roster to the point where it was like Mello and Namari and like,

not much else to play with, especially for that season going forward. I think the difference with the Sixers is they managed to retain most of the good things that they already have. They have a lot around them. And so this isn't a complete gut job where it's just going to be in Beaten Hard and against the world. And if one of them gets hurt, it's like pretty much playing through Paul Reed, right? Like they have Maxie, they have Thiebel. They have a title core, like, role player situation around them. And so I think it's going to to be a little bit easier to pick up and go. We're going to call it.

Stein now, you know? You're right. Yeah, that 10 days, because we're really going to pay off. But I've said this before. I want to get to it again. I am a little concern, especially because of how dominant Embedd has been and how much he's established himself in the MVP conversation, how much he's going to willingly seed power and shots and everything that comes along with being a superstar too hard.

That's my biggest concern. Not exactly the X's the nose on the court. All right, you want to go with mine real quickly here. I have the... Let me set you up, man. Justin. Yeah. Tell us yours.

Wow. Just straight from the BBC. Thank you, Chris. Justin, you must have a second half of the season storyline that you're looking forward to. Please tell us. Right. So Chris Paul, you wouldn't know it from watching the All-Star game because he played in it, surprisingly enough.

But he is out for the next six days. eight weeks, which is going to be pretty interesting, not because I think it's really going to dramatically impact the Sun's long-term outlet, outlook as long as he's going to be healthy for the playoffs. Like, they're probably going to be the number one seed. If not, maybe they fall to the two. They have a big lead at this point. I'm more interested in them because so much of their success has been credited to Chris Paul. And I kind of want to figure out how much credit he does deserve. I mean, Rob, we talked about this in the MVP conversation and just all NBA with Bill. like you want to credit Chris with all the good things that are happening,

but at the same time you don't want to diminish like the progress Booker's made and DeAndre Aiton's made. And so I really want a sample without Chris Paul because he's only missed four games up until this point in Phoenix. And I want to know like how good is Booker? And in particular, I want to know if DeAndre Aitin really is a max player because I think that is going to be a big decision they're going to have regardless of what happens in the playoffs.

I think probably a franchise altering. one going forward in terms of like turning the page to the next generation after Paul leaves. It is a vision of the future, right, in that way. The question is like how much is Monty Williams really going to allow D'Andre Aiton, for example, to do differently, knowing that he's just going to have to squeeze right back into his role once Chris Paul gets back. So I'm not, I'm not sure it's going to be dramatically different in terms of execution. I'm not even totally sold that we're going to be able to judge these guys in this situation

as like a Chris Paulless void, considering the train is already built and on the tracks. And now it's just like, can Devin Booker shovel enough coal into the engine to keep it running, which I think he is more than capable of doing. But that team is just so fully functional, so well established, so well grooved in how they operate.

Chris Paul is obviously what elevates them, what's going to make them great in the playoffs, and really enhance their ability to combat some of the best teams in the league. But for 20 games of regular season basketball, I kind of think they're still going to be dominant. Yeah, I agree. The thing that's the most impressive to me about the Suns is like the night-to-night basis stuff.

And I think even within games themselves, like you compensate for not necessarily absences, but maybe guys having off nights or guys being hot. So it's just like I think we'll probably see a little bit more of a bigger role, even for a guy like Bridges, which we didn't mention. But like, I wonder whether or not Bridges takes on a little bit more on his offensive play. And frankly, like, that might serve them well in the play. playoffs. If, if, like, a couple of guys who are more used to standing in the corner and watching Chris Paul conduct the orchestra get to, you know, be part of the playmaking, be part of, like,

different elements of the offense, you know, there's also no guarantee that, like, Chris Paul is always going to be healthy. And we've seen that over the course of the last couple of seasons. So it'll be a real, really good test and a really well-time test for the Sons, I think. Yeah. And also, it would be nice to really shore up the backup point guard spot. Like, I don't know. know if campaign can give them the same boost that they had last season. He certainly hasn't this season. The Aaron Holiday trade seems to be well-timed and from putting on my conspiracy theory. And I wonder if they knew something in advance. So at the very least, like maybe they just like, they figure out the stuff on the fringes that they're going to need in the playoffs. Yeah, well,

I mean, at least I wonder whether or not they knew they probably weren't going to get Dragich or something like that. Like, I know Dragich probably wouldn't want to go back to Phoenix anyway, given how it ended. But like, I wonder whether there, you do wonder how much of like buyout stuff people already know in the back of their heads. So that you were aware there wasn't going to be a pretty good point guard on the market. So we have to go get Aaron Holiday or something like that. Well, Justin, which one of us is Aaron Holiday?

Which one of us is campaign? And which one of us is Alfred Payton, do you think? I think you're drojic, which means you're going to be playing for a different podcast. All right. On that note, we'll be back next week. Thank you, Chris, for joining us this time. My pleasure, guys. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production.

It'll be next time.