The Ringer NBA Show - Do the Raptors Have to Trade Pascal Siakam? | The Answer

Episode Date: July 11, 2023

Seerat and Michael get together to break down the Toronto Raptors' disappointing offseason, and they anticipate great changes coming for the team in the near future, including the likely departure of Pascal Siakam. They determine the market value of the star forward and propose some fake trades for Siakam, which include teams like the Hawks, the Magic, and the Knicks, and they even discuss a dream transaction that would send Dame Lillard north of the border (10:30). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more. Hosts: Seerat Sohi and Michael Pina Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For as long as I've known the NBA, it's been a Stars League. But even among the Stars, there's an exclusive club. Russell and Dr. Jay, Jordan, Kobe. They're all part of a select group that paved the way for the NBA superstar of today. And some even shared secrets with each other along the way. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Jackie McMullen. And this is the Icons Club. And welcome to the NICHAs Club.

answer. I am Sirat Sohi. I'm joined as always by Michael Pina. We are going to take a slight detour from the Wembe Hype train here and do some offseason reflection. We're going to talk about a team that I think is in a fascinating place. They're at a crossroads. I feel like they've been at a perpetual crossroads for the last two years or so. The Toronto Raptors, the Toronto Raptors had what I, what can only really be deemed as a disappointing office. season. I think if you put in a vacuum, not horrible, if you just count it from like the last 10 days or so. But not great, not great. And they're in a, they're in a strange place right now. So we're going to dive in. We're going to talk about some Ciacom stuff. We're going to talk about

them potentially finding a way to become a win now team, maybe getting involved in the dame sweepstakes and just a general overview of their off season. Mike, how's it going? Going great. I feel like this is the most interesting team maybe right now in the whole league. And I feel like they have been ever since, like, weeks before, maybe even like a couple months before last year's trade deadline, where it's just like, what is this team doing? Are they going to trade Fred? Are they going to trade Pascal or OG?

There were so many rumors they ended up buying at the trade deadline, which just added to the intrigue and then flamed out lost to demar de rosen's daughter screaming daughter in the play-in and had just incredible carmic retribution seriously and had a i had to google that story like it was a fever dream or something like did that really happen um and yeah then i had i think it was kind it's been kind of a disastrous off-season i'll say like i i don't think it's been it's been in any way great for them and kind of a stunner in some ways. And we can get into all of it right now. But you wanted to start with Siakum.

And I feel like that's where the best spot to kick this conversation up. Yeah. Look, here's where we're at. We had Fred Van Vleet walk after not being traded at the deadline. He's in Houston. And the Raptors didn't want to pay him $43 million a year. And that is more than fair, but they probably should have anticipated not wanting to pay him that much money at the trade deadline or anticipated that he would want to

want to leave. He actually did go on a podcast a couple days ago saying that maybe he would have stayed like it wasn't necessarily something that he wasn't necessarily looking at leaving. But this is a man who is perpetually bet on himself and has made it very clear that he wants to get a bag and he got a big bag and good for him. Could have seen that one coming, my opinion. and now we're looking at a place now where this is a team that has just waited too long on some of these moves, right? Like they misread the Fred situation.

They didn't trade OG at the deadline and they don't necessarily have to. Maybe he's part of their youth movement, but they could have gotten three first rounders for him. I don't think you're getting that for him now. And now we're at this place where we have Mark Stein reporting that maybe Pascal Seacum is the one who is more available than OG Ananoi.

He is up for an extension. He is not received an extension offer. He is going to be a free agent next season. Assuming that Jalen Brown opts into his or gets an extension at some point, although, I mean, clock sticking hasn't happened. So waiting. Pascal will probably be the best free agent in 2024. So he's going to get paid regardless.

It seems like the Raptors are weighing whether they want to be the team that pays him. And if they don't want to be the team that pays him, I think it would behoove them to learn from the past and make sure that they get the best deal they possibly can. You don't need to be hasty. This is an all NBA level talent. They should try to get the most they can for him, try to create a market, if that's what they're going to do. But I don't know. I wrote this in our winners and losers stuff from, you know, at the ringer.com. Basically, like, there is a difference between patients and paralysis, and the Raptors have been on the wrong side of that.

Oftentimes in the last few years, you can go back to the Kyle Lowry trade as well. They basically gave him away for pennies when they could have gotten a lot more for him if they moved earlier. And look, you just don't want to do that with a guy like Ciacom. He is just too valuable. On its face, it's like this time of change and this like summoning of a new era in Toronto.

And like, I feel like everyone, maybe on the outside looking in sees that and Masayu Jiri is kind of maybe oblivious to it or oblivious is maybe too harsh of a word but it just seems like

they're at a point and Crossroads is a great word like they should be pushing forward and trying to win right now where in a conference that's not like super duper loaded at the top and an NBA where it's like

there's some relative parody. Or they should go in the other direction. And I'm not anti-middle of the road. But I just feel like when you're coming off of 41 and 41 season where you finish in ninth place and you lose arguably your best player or maybe your most, one of your most important players, I think. Yeah. Yes, that's fair. Fred, very good point guard. And you just replace him somewhat half-hazardly with Dennis Schrooter using your full mid-level.

like I just it just doesn't seem like good team building and now you have OG who has a player option next year he's going to opt out he's going to be an unrestricted free agent they have every intention apparently of keeping him which is fine he's really good and he's 25 years old but you also have Pascal 29 there's a chance that his best basketball's behind him I don't I don't know. There's also a chance that he could make another all-NBA team this coming season and then demand a max contract, in which case, if you're Toronto, you are stuck. Because I just don't think you're going to be so much better than a 500 team with Pascal OG. And I think Scotty Barnes is the other guy here that we obviously need to mention who's coming off a relatively disappointing

sophomore season, who could easily just take this monster leap and kind of leave this conversation moot where if he's an all-star in year three and he's amazing and he's like this de facto point center and they don't need. I know Darko Ryakovich, their new head coach, has talked about giving Scotty the ball a bit more. And if he's amazing, then that's great. And it works out. But I don't know. It feels like they kind of have to trade Pascal right now. Is that, is a Like, am I too aggressive there? I don't think they necessarily have to trade him. He obviously, like he is, Chris Haynes has reported that he wants to be in Toronto.

Today, Michael Grange, who wrote a column about Seacom not being at Vegas Summer League, just not in attendance at all. Went on Sportsnet this morning on J.D. Bunk's show and was talking about how he still feels like Pascal wants to be in Toronto. They will probably have to do some repair, but, you know, there's no repair quite like a max contract. So if they do want to bring him back, they can. I think. So this is an interesting place to, you know, talk about basically like, what is the Atkins value?

Like, if he makes an all-NBA team next year, then he is eligible for the designated veteran extension, which would pay him $290 million over $5.5. years at the most. And he's, right now, he's eligible for a four-year $192 million extension. I personally think with the way that the CBA is going up, with the way that, Pascal Seackem had his best season last year. And he's 29 years old, but he's going into his eighth season in the league. So it's not necessarily like I'm going to look at him like some guy who is

aging, right? Like, there is an extent to which he relies on his, on his speed for sure. He'll slow down to the course of that contract. I don't love the way necessarily the end of that contract looks, but I also look at the next three years of Pascal Seac. I mean, really only work, if it's a four-year deal, I'm really only worried about the fourth year, to be honest. I don't look at the next three years of Pascal Seac. I'm worried about him slowing down. This is a guy who's pretty much perpetually, you know, improved throughout the course of his career. He had the best season of his career last year. He's becoming a much more cerebral player. He's incredible in the post.

He's a good playmaker. Mid-range game is good. It's just like he is, I mean, I don't know. Like, we obviously know that Pascal Seacum is very good. I think that if he goes into free agency, he will probably get a max contract from somebody, especially if he's going to be the best player going into free agency next year.

So. Almost definitely. Yeah. Like, it's like, he is worth the max. I think the question for the Raptors becomes, how much money do you want to commit to a team that might not necessarily be going anywhere.

And I guess that's where we're at, right? Like, I don't, I guess, what do you think? Like, do you think he's worth the four-year 192 that they could offer him? I think, like, in a vacuum, absolutely. He's worth that. He's an all-NBA caliber forward who can do so many awesome things. And I think, like, I probably misspoke earlier by. saying he's his best basketball is behind him because like no that's just incorrect like he's

i think he he won a most improved player award he started playing basketball late his trajectory is just like abnormal compared to other 29 year olds i think in the modern NBA but where i get really and i think this is where it gets really complicated for him and for the raptors is like he said um i believe around the draft before the draft that he would not sign an extension with any team that traded for him and he's on an expiring contract. So that really compresses his value, his trade value. And it makes it so the teams that have been calling, according to Mark Stein,

the Atlanta Hawks, the Indiana Pacers, the Orlando Magic have gauged this situation and there are other teams. But like, what are you getting back for Pascal? And is there value in simply not being the team to, have to lock yourself into a max deal with someone who is very good. But I think it's kind of clear like isn't the best player on a championship team. And you're just really banking on OG and Anobie's development, assuming that you resign him. And Scotty Barnes' development after a very, I'm not giving up on Scotty Barnes, but a disappointing second season.

Like a sophomore area, yeah. Yeah. So I have a bunch of fake trades and we'll get into that eventually. Maybe now. I don't know. But like if you're Toronto, it's just like this really fascinating question of like you, I guess like if you're Toronto, you can't lose them for nothing. Right? You can't.

That's like the worst case scenario. You just went through this show with Fred. So that's why I said like trading him is appealing. And I also think this team should pivot out of the situation that they're in. Yeah. The leverage question. to me is really interesting with Toronto. You could look at it and say,

Siakum wants to say, so if they don't find the right deal for him, they'll probably just keep him and kick the can down the road. There is also an argument to be made that if you do want to trade him eventually, he might have more trade value after he is extended. And, you know...

It's a very good point. This is a team that I would not put any potential trade, potential betrayal pass them, they will do it if it will make them better. So regardless of whether he wants to be there, if he's locked in, I assume he won't be getting a no trade clause. So that could be a move down the line for them. Yeah, the fact that he said that he wants to be in Toronto,

I think it could be seen in two different ways. Like it could be seen as a team that wants, to trade him, potentially thinking, well, how much are we willing to bargain for one year of Pascal Seacum? I think that also comes down to your level of faith in what you are after. And I also wonder, and this is a question only Pascal can answer, if by saying that he wouldn't sign with a team that traded for him, does that mean that he just wants to test out free agency in general? Is that what it is? Or is it just a matter of him wanting to go back to Toronto?

So I think it can be taken in a lot of different ways. Because, like, they don't necessarily have to deal him. Because I think, I mean, I think the other thing is, like, you don't necessarily want to keep doing, like, you know, like the situation that the Celtics are in with Jalen Brown, I think I like to, I like to point it out because it's hilarious to me to do it to you. But at the end of the day, it's a lot of money.

Yeah. It's a lot of money. And money can fix a lot of, things. So I kind of look at Ciacum situation in the same way. Yeah, I don't know. I just, I don't know I don't know what it all means leverage-wise.

Can we just, do you want to get into the fake trades? Let's do it. Hop in. So I've got a few here. Basically going off of Stein's reporting. And I think these are fair trades like for teams that are understanding that they may not. I mean, first of all, like the extension question,

it's like if I were Pascal, I would hit unrestricted free agency because I can make more money that way than extending. I'm pretty certain of that. I'm not 100, but I'm pretty certain that he can make way more money or not as much because extension rules have changed with the new CBA, but there is a benefit to hitting unrestricted free agency still. If he signs with the Raptors as a free agent,

he'll make just as much money. If he can sign a designated veteran contract, then that's the way that he makes the absolute most money. He can sign that, whether he goes into free agency or not, he can extend on that. Yeah. The lowest money situation for him is if he signs with another team in free agency.

And even that, like, it's four years, 184. So it's not like a huge pay cut. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about Atlanta. Atlanta's really interesting because they just extended DeJante Murray on a number that frankly surprised me. It was lower than I thought.

We just talked about, like, you know, maximizing your financial value and your worth. And in a relatively thin free agency class next summer where there's going to be a lot of teams that have a lot of cap space and need at that position, I thought DeJonji is. Jante could have veered closer to the max, especially if he's a really strong year under Quinn Snyder. And instead, he signed for four for 120, I believe. And that's not really close to the max. It's a lot of money. I would take it.

But not the max. I think you could hold out for more. Thank you. I appreciate that. So they're in a fascinating situation because obviously their ownership group has never paid the tax, even though they always say that they will pay whatever it takes. and they never pay the tax, and they just dumped John Collins

for Rudy Gay in a second round pick, dramatically lowering their salary situation to get under the luxury tax. If they do trade for Pascal, it's like, I'm sure that they can finagle some sort of way to stay out of the tax, although it would be very difficult, especially long term.

You've got a Kongwu and you have all these other Rookies guys on rookie scale contracts who want to get paid on your team, they can dump some other salary. And obviously, there would be outgoing salary in this deal. But let me just give you my favorite hypothetical here. And it's very simple. Pascal to Atlanta for D'Andre Hunter and Bogdan Bogdanovich. Those two salaries almost exactly equals Siakum's $37.8 million deal. for next year.

If you're Toronto, first of all, just give me your reaction to that. Was there anything else? Any picks? No, that's it. What?

That's the reaction? Shock. Yeah. Why would... It's just those are two contracts that are locked in for the next four years. And between like the injury history

of both of those guys and just what we've seen from DeAndre Hunter. Like, I would, would need a draft pick just to like unload those salaries regardless of who I'm getting back. So if you're Atlanta, you have, I guess you could give, like you just don't have a lot of draft equity. You don't.

Yeah. You gave up your, I guess you could give a 2009 first if you really wanted to. They have their 2013 one pick and they had the King's 2024 pick as well. That is, I think, Lottery Protect. Yeah, so like the draft equity is not great in Atlanta right now. The reason why, like, and if I'm Atlanta, like, and this applies to a lot of these teams in terms of like how desperate you are to make a move. I don't think Atlanta's super desperate right now necessarily, but like you're getting a flight

risk with Pascal. So if I'm trading for him, like I'm giving up a young player 24 years old, Andre Hunter, a little better on my Scotty Barnes timeline, if I'm building around Scotty. And I get Bogdanovich, I didn't have any shooting last year. I get one of the better shooters in basketball. Both guys are locked up for a couple years. And I, again, I think that there is value. I might be in the minority on this every time I open my mouth about it, but I think

there is value in being the team that as a non-contender does not have to pay Pascal Seacum, the max are close to the max, because that's in the new CBA, that's just like the reality of the NBA, I think. Yeah, but you're not like offloading him, though. It's not that dire that you had to take on four years of DeAndre Hunter. No. I guess like I am still a fool and I still think that there's upside with DeAndre Hunter. so like I I would be kind of excited about that not like super duper excited I don't think like I don't know you're you immediately talking about this he's very much a rocker's type he's very much you immediately you immediately talking out of this like just a terrible fake trade by me I'm sorry for everyone listening I think you'd have to include a first I guess like you'd have to include a first if it was like Russell Westbrook's contract you know like it's four years of those guys and look okay okay

Okay, so me personally, like, I still, I'm curious about where DeAndre Hunter is going. I hate his inconsistency. I don't think he's aggressive enough. I don't know if that's, you could potentially go the Andrew Wiggins route. Maybe he figures it out. I like his postplay. I think he's a great mid-range shooter. I think that for being 6-8 and having a 7-2 wing span, I don't see nearly enough from him on defense.

Maybe that's fair. Maybe the Raptors like him. Maybe the Raptors like him. Maybe they believe that he's a type of guy that they can convince or like, you know, just basically motivate him. He has obviously never been in like a really good situation in Atlanta. He's had a ton of injuries. His role has shifted a lot.

But he also, he played over 30 minutes a game last year. And I didn't really come away being like, oh, wow, finally DeAndre Hunter got a consistent role and he showed something for it. And then he's also just one of those guys where I love him. I love him as a rookie contract guy. Like his value to me as a rookie contract guy is very different than a guy that

I'm paying 20 million over. for this. Okay. You win this argument? Okay. I feel like the whole city of Toronto is going to be coming to my apartment with torches and pitchforks after that one. I apologize. I'll be better. I promise. You know what? You have such a strong track record and just a way that you just right now took accountability right away just shows me. Like you're, I just don't think you're, I don't see you on the DeAndre Hunter trajectory. To me, you're way more of like in a congoo. Nicest thing. Anyone's understood to me, frankly.

Untouchable, like an AJ Griffin type. Like, just someone I'm really excited with, like, just really easy to play with, like, super smart, move off the ball really well. What if instead of a first, they threw in Kobe Buffkin? Would that change anything? Okay, so, no. Okay, let's kind of think about what Atlanta has, right? So they have the Kings 2024 pick. they have like every second rounder

except for one going out until 2029. They have a lot of promising young players and I think that's where you can get a deal done potentially. I think so I think Hunter's going in this deal anyway just because of the money. You need somebody to match up the money.

He is a Raptors type. I do think that he can be, there's a reclamation project potential in there somewhere. Um, from there, if I'm the Raptors and I want to stay competitive through this rebuild or this retool, I like some of the guys that they can potentially offer up. Like, I like Jalen Johnson. Um, another Raptors type. He's six, nine, seven foot wingspan. You can convince yourself that maybe he'll be a shooter one day, even though he probably won't. I like Jalen Johnson. Yeah. I like a lot of, uh, Atlanta's young

players and again this is one of my most embarrassing podcast segments like i i don't even know what was going through my head when i wrote down this fake trade i was probably distracted shoot or shoot man you got to have like just goldfish memory you're good it's all i did um okay so they have the all the assets that you're i interrupted you have they have the assets they have jalen johnson i like jalen johnson um Throwing him in there would be pretty interesting, I guess. He's a freak athlete in the open floor. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Dunk machine, high upside. I don't know, like, who of their young talents is, like, most intriguing to you, or do you think would, like, be most appealing to Maasai? Well, I have to assume a congou is off the table. I think he's off the table. After that, I would say, probably A.J. Griffin.

Just, I really like, especially if he, if he figures it out as a ball handler, too, I just really like the type of player he can be. He's super aggressive. He's really smart. He, like, just finishes really well at the rim. He's a good shooter. He has, I think he's just a really great complimentary player. I think, I think that's the thing with the Hawks.

I think the Hawks have a bunch of young players that can, be really good complimentary pieces. I think the same about Jalen Johnson, who's also just like an awesome defender too. Sadiq Bay, he's only 24 still. He's showing some creation ability. I wish he went to the rim more,

but just, you know, on the perimeter, he's a good closeout attacker. Not much of an in-between game, but like just a lot of guys that I think right now project out to, A, they have NBA rules right now. They know what to do. They can slot in. They can potentially develop from there. I don't see star potential any of those guys. I see like some of those

guys can be like really high level complimentary players one day. So I guess the question to me becomes like, are you looking for that? Like would you take Tom and some Greg sprinkles or do you want like a Roman? Like do you want like a Ken? Like is it what can you get a can right? Like that's that to me becomes like the question because like they the hawks have some sprinkles and I think that they will have have to probably give up like Hunter and like one or two of those guys just because of you know, they don't have picks. It's like the other teams that can get into this, I think have more picks. And that's also kind of why I think it behooves Toronto to wait it out a little bit and try

to create a bit of a market. Like I would, if I'm Toronto, like, what I'm trying to do is just like find a way to get Brooklyn involved, you know? That's interesting. I will also say on behalf of, you know, Tom's fan base, the man was the man was the CEO, my guy the pain sponge. So like, there's some value there.

Like if we're, you're right. As far as like the highest level of complimentary role playing, I was like there is just like, think about a guy who just does all the dirty work, you know. Exactly. So, okay, let's I think Orlando is actually

a really interesting team in this discussion. You're talking about picks. They have all their picks. Super young. But also like like, really talented and have one of the better young cores in all of basketball. Let me throw another fake trade of you and I will redeem myself here. The Orlando Magic at Pascal Seacom, the Toronto Raptors get Gary Harris,

Markell Fultz, Jalen Suggs, and two first round picks. Ooh, okay. Now we're talking. Now we're talking. that. I like that. I think like, just like the shot creator that Jalen Suggs can potentially turn into is exactly what this Toronto Raptors team needs.

For the magic, you're losing quite a bit of your perimeter depth here. I almost wonder if, like, they wouldn't want to give you all of those guys add their picks. Maybe they have to. Maybe they don't.

It's just, it's like, I'm projecting out a lot of Cole Anthony, but I like this deal. I like Cole Anthony. and I was I'm also like you know if if you're actually negotiating this trade like if you're Orlando you're probably actually trying to push Cole Anthony into it instead of especially Suggs who I think is like a really good long-term fit with Paolo and Franz and just like you know I remember when he was drafted it was like is this Drew Holiday I don't

I know if that's going to be his long-term trajectory, but really good on-ball defender still, really tough player. When he's able to stay healthy, like he's awesome, just hasn't been able to stay healthy and kind of really inconsistent, offensively shooting the ball.

But I don't know. I thought that was like a really interesting one. And if I'm Orlando, I guess like if you're Orlando, why are you doing this? Is it kind of my question? Yeah, if I'm the magic, like I'm not really sure why I want to throw a,

with 29-year-old player as good as he is into the mix with a bunch of young guys. I think then you kind of end up in pretty much the exact same predicament that the Raptors are in.

Maybe it's just like, so Jeff Weltman who used to work for the Raptor is left after Seacom's rookie year. Maybe he's just a guy who really likes Seaccom. Maybe he's doing the Raptors a favor.

I don't know. Just trying to help him out a little bit. Because yeah, like from a team building perspective even if like if I'm Orlando and I do want to add another star I'm just going a lot younger than

that so yeah I'm with you there yeah like what I would just say is like you know I'm looking at their roster and they could be like are they going to the playoffs let's say if they

do this trade like Orlando's lineup is basically like Palo it's just Palo, Franz, Pascal, Wendell Carter, and who? Like, I don't know, is Anthony Black starting? Maybe Jonathan Isaac gets healthy, then that would be really scary. It's just, it would be a really funky team with, like, so much upside.

A lot of defense, youth transition. A lot of defense, like, you can switch, stay big, space the floor, so many two-way players. Joe Ingalls is there for some reason. Yeah, I don't, like, I don't know. It was just be, and if Anthony Black. Shout out young team signing vets. Shut out that contract, which still is the most confusing contract I have ever seen. And I love Joe Ingalls.

But if, you know, if Anthony, I just think like they were, they're very guard, too many guards in Orlando right now. And I would love to see, like, Anthony Black at minutes. right away. And I feel like this would be a really good opportunity to sell relatively high on Suggs and also on Fultz. Faults is good, but like, I don't know, I feel like this would be a better short and long-term route for them. Okay, so let's move away from the magic. They would be really fun. The Pacers are another team that's rumored to have interest. And this is not very sexy. but this is like a

maybe their best realistic offer in my opinion if you're Indiana and it's Buddy Heel, T.J. McConnell, Aaron Neesmith and two unproductive first round picks. What do you think about that? I love it for the Pacers. I think like I don't hate it for the Raptors either. I think it's like

I think right now it's among the best deals that you're going to get. I think that if I'm the Raptors and this is maybe like why it makes sense to like wait it out a little while like I would be curious about Topin I don't think

that they can flip him right away he officially has become a pacer so you know there's no like three team possibilities there I don't think but I like so which which picks is it their own picks? They have all their own picks yeah so it would be two

let's just say 24 26 unprotected So assuming they have all, yeah, they have all of their own picks. I don't think that there is ever going to be a time when those picks get like less valuable over time. Like Halliburton just extended through 2029. You try to go get there a 2031 pick. That's probably what I would do if I was a Raptors.

But there's like really no guarantee that that pick is going to be any better than those. I had a few notes about those guys. I like that, you know, McConnell just, you know, he only has, he's only going to have like one year left in his contract right after this, right? And then with Buddy Heald, it's just kind of, they already have Gary Trent. Maybe you take him to flip him. You could probably get a first rounder out of him, like send him to a contender. But like, I don't necessarily look at Buddy Heald and say like he's going to be part of their long term plans when, you know, Gary Trent just opted into his deal.

And the reporting is that he is going to be signing an extension. Waiting for that to happen. That's a fair point. But I think it's a pretty good deal. I'd be curious what Nees Smith looks like in a Raptors uniform as well. And they also, I mean, the Pacers also have the Kings second rounders too from the Duarte trade. So maybe those can grease the wheels a little bit. This feels like this feels like one of the more realistic deals also just because of how well

Seacom would fit into the Pacers. like if there's any hole that they have right now, it is at the four position where like it's, it seems like it's a battle between like Topin and Jarrett Walker, who I love. Maybe like maybe Jaris Walker can also be part of the deal as well. Like he's really athletic. I would not trade him if I was Indiana.

Yeah, okay, I'm pretty high on him too. I love him. He's such, he's so fun. I mean, he's like also just like very much my type of player is like someone who's just been riding like the next Dramon Green Train for the longest time. Like, I just love him. And he feels like it.

Yeah, anyway. So we're not going to turn this into a Jarris Walker podcast as much as I'd like to, but he is also out there. And like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't deem him to be necessarily untradable. I think the Pacers were looking to trade that pick before the draft anyways. So I would just say that he's out there. But yeah, I would love to CCAC and playing next to like Ty Halliburton and Bruce Brown and Matherin.

I just think it's a perfect fit. Like he just, he would revamp their offense a lot. Like, he'd be a really good fit next to Turner as well. Turner's another guy that, like, it has to be, it has to be healed, right? Like, if it's, if it's Turner, it doesn't really make sense for either team. Yeah, exactly. Like, I was just looking at it. You need the salary.

Um, he'll be expiring. He's pretty old, honestly. And I've been trying to get, you know, I was trying to get players who are more on Scotty's timeline a little bit. But also, like, if they trade Pascal, it seems like they want to be this team that can sort of replicate what, like, the Miami Heat just did and go on this magical run. I feel like that's, like, the best case scenario for a Toronto Raptors team that wants to stay competitive right now.

And I don't know, like, honestly, like, this whole conversation is, like, really frustrating for me because I just want them to either like bottom out or go after Dame Lillard. Like that's I just all of these trades like it just doesn't make a lot of, after losing Fred, I just think the calculus has changed for the organization and they need to be like either getting off of Pascal. Not for nothing like my first talks hypothetical. But like just more aggressively looking to move on and start like turn the page and start over around. I'm fine with them

resigning OG. I think he's really good and is coming off a fantastic season on the defensive end. And he's always talking about improving and expanding his offensive role. And he's young enough where that's a

realistic aspiration, I feel like, on a big contract. So I'm fine with that. I just I don't know. Like, it's it's just a really, it's just a really frustrating conversation for a really frustrating team. The other team I have that hasn't been mentioned is the Knicks,

just because I feel like, why not? You know? I haven't thought too hard about it, but it's like you do Pascal and Otto Porter for R.J. Barrett, Evan Fornier and a first. What do you thoughts on that? I need more. I need more picks. I need more picks.

If I'm taking on Evan Fornier, I need more picks. And the Knicks have him. The Knicks have him. And he'd be a really, really good fit New York, really good. He would. I think he's a little... Him and Randall together would be weird, maybe. He's a lot better, but they do a lot of the same stuff and operate in the same space.

I just said one pick because I just don't think the Knicks... The Knicks want to keep their picks, and they're trying to get other better stars who may come available at some point. Doesn't Seacom, though, like the type of guy that you hold out for? You mean, he's not necessarily Trey Young by any means. but you have Jalen Brunton. I think he would play incredibly well with Jalen Brunton. Like, love that two-man game.

Don't disagree. Yep. I agree. What's your ceiling, though? What's your ceiling? Well, you do have to get something out. Like,

you do have to get something else, but I do think that the Knicks have enough assets that, like, they can afford to give up, you know, like two more picks in a deal like that and still have plenty in the war chest to go after somebody else. Especially as we're seeing now, right? Like the, sort of like the Rudy Gobert, Donovan Mitchell-esque halls aren't really there anymore, right?

And superstars are increasingly going off the wayside, like, in trades. So I think that you could just wrangle more for it. And it just kind of goes back down to the Hunter thing. Like, why am I taking on Evan Fornier, who granted has less years on his contract? But still, like, why am I taking him on for an all-NBA level player? just I would just need much more. And like you can like you can get more than that for Seacum. Yeah, I don't I don't disagree.

But I love the Knicks as a trade partner. And like RJ Barrett can't like the Canada connection. 100%. Yeah, they're pretty interesting. I don't, I'm sure there's other teams that could be thrown into this mix that are, you know, wanting a player of Pascal's talent level. But it's just like, what are you willing to give up? is just the big question.

Do you have enough to get him? And where are you in your timeline as an organization? And does he make sense there? And would he resign there? Those are all the questions. That's why it limits kind of the pool here for potential trade partners. So I've been sitting on this. I actually haven't because I think I tweeted it out or I sent it on blue sky.

I can't even remember there's too many of those. There's too many. Threaded it. There's just too many. Yeah, I threaded it. Or did you actually just post it on like a word doc, like the one that was set up for Creed so that nobody would ever get any of his thoughts? That's exactly right.

The Damien Lillard saga is like really frustrating. Obviously yesterday, Joe Cronin, Portland Trailblazers GM said this could drag out for months. And he's spoken about how usually everybody is happy when a, when a star forces their hand, only when the star has more than one team he's willing to go to, which makes a lot of sense because who are you negotiating against in a trade if you're the Blazers, but the Miami Heat. And there just aren't a lot of teams out there who are potential suitors. And I feel like the Toronto Raptors are not being discussed enough in this conversation. and I have a fake trade here involving one Damian Lillard going to the Toronto Raptors

and I want to read it to you and I want to get your reaction. And I feel like the pieces involved can be, you know, tweaked a little bit. But like fundamentally, like the big heavy hitters will are like the... Hey, look, like, you're still J.G. J. Reddick, you know, like, I don't want you to be hesitating. Like, you don't need to preface anything. I'm faking left and right here.

You are. I'm so shook. I know. I want to see you play your game. Thank you. I appreciate you. You're a great podcast partner. The Raptors get Damian Lillard and Nasir Little. The Blazers get Scotty Barnes,

Gary Trent Jr., Chris Bouchet, Thad Young, Otto Porter, Toronto's unprotected first round pick in 2008 and a pick swap in 2009. That is the trade. Oh man. Fuck the two timelines. Okay. That's spicy.

That's spicy. So you keep OG Anonovi, Pascal Ciacom, and you got Dave on the team. Yeah. You got Yakup Pertil, Gary Trent. That is an incredible starting lineup. I would have to say that, like the Raptors have basically said over and over again that Scotty Barnes is untouchable

in a trade but okay I was honestly I blacked out a little bit after you said Scotty Barnes I need you to go down that list again so Scotty uh Gary Trent Jr. Chris Boucher Thad Young Otto Porter Jr. And then a first in 2008 pick swap 2009. Okay. All right so okay so Gary Trent's gone. Gary Trent's gone um I don't think it would happen just because I don't either the Raptors feel about Scotty but I love it

I really like it I kind of wonder if like I also but I also feel like if you are going to give up Scotty you don't necessarily have to like give up anybody else who's a real asset but I just like who works salary wise because like that and auto are good as

your your expiring deals but I also kind of wonder if like if it's going to be Scotty, then like maybe I try to keep Gary Trent and do like a Chris Boucher like in some Greg Sprinkles

situation as opposed to Trent because like and men, I love and if you're the Blazers man, like you're not going to get a better prospect than Scotty Barnes who is like the perfect timeline to build around scoot, the perfect player to build around scoot with. He does think he's a point guard.

So you might have to talk to him a little bit about that. and say, hey, maybe you're more of a playmaking four. That was kind of your best role last year. So maybe lean into that. But it's kind of, man, like, that's such a great foundational start. If you're the Blazers and, like, you're kind of, you're surrounded by wings who can shoot already.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, like, upset because it won't happen. So why I love it for, I mean, I love it for the Blazers for, like, everything that you said. Like, I just think. Scottie's going to be a multiple time All-Star, or at least that's the ceiling.

All-NBA. His rookie year was like incandescent. He was amazing. He's this two-way, just monster. In a lot of ways, the future of basketball. And that's like, that's your trio. You've got your trio right there. You've got Sharp, Scoot Henderson, and Scotty Barnes.

and like you don't need the draft picks. You know what I mean? Like you're getting one here. But you just have this foundation that is amazing. And in three, four years, you will be hopefully like borderline. I don't know about contending. But you'll be very good. You should be if everyone stays healthy.

It's a great core. Yeah. It's a great core. Amazing core. I would take that core probably, you know, I want to see Scoot Henderson play. in an NBA game but I would take that court I'm sold man

Scoot's a star Scoot looks really good yeah yeah he looks really good so I just think that that that core would be really fascinating not sold on Shaden Sharp

but I like Shaden Sharp I think he's gonna be awesome I forgive him for backing out of the Dunk contest last year it took me a while I took it personally when he

backed out but we're over it we've moved on we've made amends So I'm back on Team Sharp. I love that trio. I feel like they compliment each other really well. And I think more importantly here is the Toronto aspect of it.

Obviously, you're giving up Scotty Barnes. And obviously what you're doing is you are just hard pivoting into the present. And the question you have to ask yourself is, can we win a championship with Dame? Pascal, OG, Perthal, you can go down the line of everyone else who's left on the team.

It's like Precious, Grady Dick, Jalen McDaniels, Dennis Schrooter is the backup point guard. And I honestly think that like they would not be my favorite. I think that that team could be very,

very competitive. That team could win two playoff series. That team could be better than the Sixers. That team could beat the bucks in a playoff series, that team could, I'll say like, who knows what the Celtics look like?

They could beat the Celtics. Yes. Like, they wouldn't be the favorite, but like, this is the team, why I love it so much is like, this is the team that Dame has wanted and needed for so long in Portland. You get like these two amazing defensive wings,

you've got a great rim protecting center who has skills. on the perimeter offensively, who can do some really nice things. Wonderful pick and roll partner. And it's like you have a second star who's 6-9 or however Pascal is,

who's like won a championship, who is made an all-MBA team, who is super established. OG is still improving. And I think spacing, honestly, is less of a important variable when you have Dame

because dame is I'll pull up from 28 feet in your eye. I don't care. So I just, I don't know, it would be really fun. And I think the NBA would be like way cooler if this trade happened than any other trade. And yeah, so that's, that's my like pitch for it. They're an instant championship contender with that trade, like instant. Yeah, that's what I think too. Yeah.

Like they especially like I would, if I'm going that direction. and I'm giving up Scotty Barnes I'm finding a way to keep Gary Trent and like maybe you have to put together a bunch of young salaries to do it but that's fine like you can send away Boucher and Malachi Flynn

I think you'd have to throw in a third team because it would get there's a lot of like bodies in going to Portland but you could theoretically make that work and I think potentially keep Gary Trent I haven't like tried because it's

contract. 18.5 is like a pretty big number. And him opting in low-key, I think, like, ruined Masayu Shari's summer. That's a different conversation. But I think, like, depth-wise, you've got some question marks. Like, you're going to need Grady Dick to play right away and be pretty good or okay and or passable, whatever. You got precious, Chua.

You've got precious. What else do you need? Preciousaloko. Yeah. I think like it's like you still also have a future first to trade. And I think the downside is this would get, this will get really expensive. But I also think that it simplifies your job if you are Maasai. And you don't have to worry about trading OG or trading Pascal.

You re-sign both of them. You have dame. And you're damn good. Like I just, what else are you going to do? The Jacob Pertel contract is just like, I love Jacob, but like, why would you do that unless you were trying to be like a really good basketball team? And I don't know.

I feel like, do you think Toronto Raptors fans would be happy with this? Or would they be really upset? Oh, man. I don't know. I don't know. I feel like after the year that Scotty had, it would be pretty mixed. I think if you tried to do this after his rookie year,

when people were saying that you can't even trade him for Kevin Durant, it would be like a different conversation right uh but yeah i mean i think you're just so excited that it makes you a contender right away and i just tried it right now and the barnes tray young that young auto porter flynn and and boucher works in the trade machine um for what it's worth the raptors uh go up they they win 12 more games and uh The Blazers lose 13 games. But if you're the Blazers, it's also kind of what you want going into next season.

You don't necessarily want to be winning too many games. You do not want to be winning games. No. And also, you know, man, they got Marquise Noel, like 5-7 next Fred Van Vlite, just killing it at Summer League too. Like, he could play some backup point guard for you. Yeah, I think it would be a very mixed reaction.

I think it wouldn't be the same emotional reaction that it was when DeMarer, Rosen was traded, but I think in terms of how polarizing it would be, it would be pretty polarizing. But then, like, the thing is, like, you're locked in. Then you can, like, you can, you can extend Seacum, just knowing that that's, like, that's what you're

braked into. And Dame is locked in through 2027. So I think that, you know, as much as he talks about how he won't report to camp, it's like, it'd be a long, long time to not report to camp. And this is a team that is also very much proven that it's is willing to take a risk on

a superstar that has said he will not play for them and just go for it. And this is kind of like, this is why you stay in the middle if you're the Raptors too, right? Like this is like the one argument for it. They do have a ton of guys that are appealing to other teams, whether it's Barnes or like, you know, OG, Seacom, like a whole bunch of young guys like precious Christian Coloco. We don't know what Grady Dick is yet. Boucher, like they have a whole bunch of dudes.

and they have most of their first rounders. They don't have next years. They have a team that could be very competitive if they make the next right move. And like this, this just fits so perfectly for them, right? Like, they just lost Fred Van Fleet. They need a point guard.

Dame is just like the, the creator that they've been missing ever since Kauai left. And yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it for both sides. I had a deal as well. that I just don't, I don't even want to say anymore because I just don't like it as much as I like yours, but I will say it.

I don't love it as much as for the Blazers, but I still think that it's like one of the better deals that the Blazers could get. Because OG Ananobe, if you trade him, like, it immediately, I think, becomes like the best young player that has been mentioned in the Damien Liller trade talks. But OG, Boucher, sad and autos expiring, and a first rounder. That is interesting. I think I would need, look, if Miami's given three firsts, then... Take them. Yeah, it's like, like, you play, yeah, you play ball. You try to get the first, you try to sneak it through with like one first.

But like, yeah, go take the first. It's all good. Take them. Man, I love that you said, I guess, subtly that OG is better than Tyler Hero, which I think is really fascinating. And... He is all right. Like, right?

I don't disagree. I don't disagree. I'm not saying that. I think I would rather have OG on my team. So, but does that mean he's better? I don't know. But that is a really fascinating. There's like kind of polar opposites in a lot of ways.

Yeah. But the best Luka defender in the NBA. I'd like to have that in the Western Conference. Well, the Dallas Mavericks got the best Luka defender on their team now. now. Genius moved by them, taking them out of the competition. But no, that's a really fascinating one. I like that too.

And I guess just like overall, I want the Dame conversation to be more interesting. It's really boring when it's just the Miami Heat and hero Duncan Robinson and whatever, like Yovich, whoever. I'm not a fan of that package. I don't think that that package.

makes a ton of sense for Portland. I don't think it sets some upgrade. And if they were to do it, they would have to be way more complicated with a third or a fourth team because Tyler Hero does not make sense next to, I mean, Chaden Sharp in two years will be

better than Tyler Hero and they do the exact same thing. So what are we doing here? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me at all. So yeah, Scotty Barnes, Portland Trailblazers, Dame Lillard, Toronto Raptors. Let's go. Scoot and Scotty.

Let's make it happen. Yeah. I think what I'm realizing through the course of this conversation is one thing that I want to happen more than anything else is I really want Lillard and Siakum to play together. I just, I can't think of a more complimentary star duo than them. I mean, I can. They just won the championship, but they'd be pretty good. They'd be really good. They would just fit so, so well together.

they don't really play in the same places in the court. The pick and roll would just be devastating. It would be incredibly versatile. You can throw Seacum on the pop. You can also just have him post up. Lillard in the poll. Like it's just, I mean, we know. We know.

And like there are actually a number of ways to make it happen. I still think that Brooklyn should just like throw in everything it has to try to get both of those guys on their team. I'm also curious, like, are we too far gone with the dame situation in Portland? for them to try to trade for Siakum. What is their package for Siakum? Something revolving around Shaden Sharp, I would imagine. Like Sharp-Syman situation? I think mentally they have moved on.

And they're like, Scoot Henderson is now who we need to maximize. Yeah, Scoot's untouchable, right? Scoot is untouchable. Yeah. That's untouchable right there. But then if you do keep Dame, then you have two point guards. Exactly. which is complicated.

Yeah. I think as an organization, you need to... Gone really well for the Blazers. Exactly. Which is why I also just kind of say, like the Tyrese Maxi conversation, stop it, stupid. Has to be a 13.

Makes no sense. Like, he doesn't make sense in Portland. Yeah. Yes, yes. They both do, in my opinion. I think that was like really dumb too. Doesn't fit with Scoot, who you're trying to accentuate with this trade.

with whoever you bring back. Yeah. Which is why Scotty Barnes is great. And it should happen. It's perfect. I love it. I hate that it will never happen. But I am here for it.

I think it'd be great for every party involves. So I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. I do think the Raptors are kind of liable to do anything. They have pretty much said for the last two years that he is untouchable. But I don't know. I love it. I really like it. I really like it. You, uh, by the way, you hit the buzzer beater. You hit the buzzer beater. So I'm glad that you played through it. Thank you so much. Yeah. That was like, that was like an end one three pointer like 30 feet. And you hit the go ahead free throw. It was crazy because like I committed four personal fouls in 10 seconds earlier in the show. And to bounce back with a game winner, it just doesn't happen very often. So.

I'm feeling good about myself. Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad. Well, all right. I think this, I think this pretty much wraps it up here. You won the game. I appreciate that. You're a great teammate.

I've always had faith in you. I'm excited to keep running it back with you. We'll talk to you guys probably next week. We'll see if we have some Damian Lillard stuff to talk about. Otherwise, I don't know. It might be some summer league stuff. might just be just heading off into the off season, getting into some next seasons?

I don't know. I don't know. It's like we're heading towards that territory now. So we'll see. It's a dead period. It's a dead period. Yeah, I think it might be. I might be unless some of this stuff starts moving.

But we'll be staying tuned. Thanks, Michael. Thank you, Chris, for producing. Thanks. Thank you all for listening.