The Ringer NBA Show - Do the Warriors Still Have What It Takes to Make a Late-Season Run? Plus, Kobe’s Statue Reveal. | Real Ones

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

Logan, Raja, and Howard discuss what to make of the Golden State Warriors at this point in the season following a strong road trip and Steph’s game winner against the Suns (2:55). Next, the guys talk about Kobe’s recent statue-unveiling ceremony, his lasting legacy with the Lakers, and how it uniquely represents the collision of the past and present (38:10). Finally, the guys close with Mailbag Monday (48:17). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This might be the best quarterback draft class in years, and we have huge franchises like Chicago, New England, and Washington with a ton on the line. My name is Craig Horlebeck and I host the Ringer NFL Draft Show with Danny Kelly, Ben Solack, and Danny Hyfitz. We cover trades, free agency, the draft obviously, everything. We'll tell you all about which quarterbacks are going to be good, which quarterbacks are going to be bad, like Kenny Pickett, and if there's a diamond in the rough like Brock Purdy. Follow us at the Ringer NFL Draft Show on Spotify.

What's popping? Rowans here. Mondays, motherfucking Mondays with Howard Beck, he's in the building, Rogers is in the building. Kerm is not in the building. He's ducking the smoke. I don't know.

That's crazy. That's crazy. That's just, you know, I don't know what to do. What do you think? What do we think, guys? Should we bring Kerm back into the fall? Where is Kerm? Kerm had,

Kerm's got a case in a Super Bowl Mondays? I don't know. I just found out, I thought you guys knew. I came out, I came late on the Zoom call for the first time. I broke my streak of being early. so I don't know where the hell Kerm is. I don't know.

Kern, we hope you're feeling well, man. We miss you. Hurry back. Oh, wow. That's how I'm feeling today. Wow. Wow, you're in a good mood today, Roger. Okay, let's see how long that lasts.

How you doing, Howard? How's everything with you, Howard? I'm good, man. Good to see you here last week. Too bad we can't do this in person again. But I'm good. Roger, we're petition. in Spotify at this moment that every time

I go to New York or Howard goes in New York or we're in a group together, we need to fly you back up, buddy. Because that was fun. You need to see the Spotify studios in New York, dude. You need to pull up. You need to get your little temporary badge and just get tours. It was phenomenal, man.

I would like that if you know someone. Yeah, put a bit in for me. I got you. All right. For sure. Anyways, the Golden State Warriors, guys. Let's get into it. I know I'm rusty today. Let's just get into it. Let's go.

We're crawling out of the gates, bro. I think the listeners need to know that Logan battled. Logan battled just to be here today. He's battling back. I battled, man. Give Logan some space. Okay. So, guys, I'm sorry that I'm-

Put some context to it, bro. Let them know. All right, all right, all right. All right, all right. All right. I had a little bit of a flu game over the week. I caught the Rona. So I've been in, you know, in hotel and isolation for the last few weeks, a few days,

while writing a big piece that you guys can read on the run. ringer.com right now. So if I'm a little sluggish guys, shit, I'm sorry, you know, I feel like Jordan after hitting that 40 piece in the finals right now. That's where I'm at right now. But we're here. Let's talk about Dakota State Warriors. Let's get through this. I don't know how we're going to do it. I don't know what else you got to say. But anyway, the Warriors are like the most interesting 500 team in the league right now, Howard. We and you both saw them over the, over their East Coast swing. I know we both talk to some people around them, and they'd had this very weird optimism going into this road trip,

that everything's going to be okay. Steve Kerr kept saying, this team is special, this team is special, and we're like, whatever. Then they go four and one on a road trip, and they come back home and beat Kevin Durant at the buzzer after a Curry three. What do you make of this team, Howard? Are they ready to take a step,

or is this just a really good run from a really interesting but fledgling? dynasty at the moment. Listen, this is one of those cases where all logic says we should probably just dismiss them and should have dismissed them weeks or months ago. And there's every reason of the world to think, like, all right, they're 25 and 25. They're 10th in the West. And it's mid-February. The trade deadlines pass.

And they didn't make a move. And the West is really tough this season. Like, what are we even doing buying in? But I've said this before probably on this podcast. It's hard to quit the warriors. It's hard to, and by that, I just mean like the belief in them. Every time Steph does shit like he did the other night and you're sitting there, I was on my couch for that one.

And like, I scared the cat because I just, I don't remember what I said or yell. Something came out of me when Steph hit that shot. I scared. Was it, oh, shit. Like, what are the secrets of it to be scared this cat back? It might have been a slightly higher register than that. I might have hit a couple octaves up from my usual. Like, it was just one of those moments.

And every time you see one of those, you think like, what? This team is capable of something special still. Like if Steve Kerr or anybody else there says, uses the word special and that sounds strained given their record, and then you see Steph do stuff things again. And Draymond has been really good since he's been back. They've been really strong since he's been back. In fact, a small sample.

size, right? But since Draymond came back, they're seven and four, which, all right, fine, solid, not dominant, but fifth in offensive efficiency in that 11 game stretch, fifth in defensive efficiency in that 11 game stretch, fifth in net rating, which is a plus eight tied with the clippers in that stretch, small, small sample size. But Draymond and Steph are still capable of doing special things. Pods has really come into the fold and it has a real serious impact on this team now and is solidly in the rotation. They're de-emphasizing Clay and Clay, your story gets into this a little bit, Logan. Clay seems to be okay with starting this kind of adjustment to a different stage of his career. And Comingo's been fantastic.

So like, I don't know. When we saw, we saw an eighth seed go or a playing team go to the finals last year and another playing team go to the Western Conference finals. Like, am I going to dismiss the Warriors right now? I don't think so. Roger, are you falling for the banana in the tailpipe? Are you... Negative, negative. Where's right? Roger?

Roger had let you cook, Howard, but he had a lot of like, oof and grunts and don't. And like, what the... You can see to look at his face. Yeah. Big, I'm going to let you finish energy, but like... You see... Roger, what's your thought of your thoughts, Roger?

Hit me, Roger. I can agree with some of what was said there. Where you... Where my face changed? little bit with where it was when you know the clay part came up where he was kind of you know he said like he seems okay with that I disagree but but uh I mean he's putting on the good face but if you're reading between the lines and the body language like that I don't think that's an okay thing for him but I don't believe them to be a team that can contend for anything this year

are they playing great yeah I think what they've really done is figured out a way to to the window in a way that gives you a chance moving forward, but pieces have to be added to that. Like, as currently constructed, no. But some of these pieces that you talked about, Pod and, you know, Caminga and, you know, if Draymon is tap back in, Clay's doing, I mean, Steph's doing step thing. Like, you have some pieces now where you're like, okay, the coverage aren't as bare as maybe we thought, what, two months ago, three months ago. So I think that's a really bright spot. Like, that's encouraging. And they are playing well. Don't get me wrong, but I don't think that they have like their top their top end is not winning a championship this year i don't

believe and i'm not saying contender by the way i i just think we're not leaving them for dead we're not leaving them for dead i agree with you i agree with you yeah the toughest thing and we're speaking on this the monday after the trade deadline um is you know the warrior staying pat and i'm not and i don't necessarily disagree with them staying pat right because i mean i think we said before the trade deadline that i don't think there's a guy out there no matter who that person is, is going to change the Warriors' fortunes this season and beyond, or just be, or if they are added to the roster, are going to make that much of a drastic difference to the overall bottom line, like, say, if there was a healthy Levine out there,

like, is he going to, you know, raise the Florida Warriors? I don't necessarily think so, right? Like, I don't begrudge them for staying pat. One of the things that, you know, I found interesting going on the road with them was their internal belief in building around the big four, which is now

Clay, Draymond, Steph, and Steve Kerr, right? Which is, in theory, how you would want to go out. And I talked to Steph about that a lot in this piece. But I don't know if that's something that you can do. I don't think that's something that you can do

simultaneously with building a team around these guys just because of how expensive that will be. I just don't know the guys that are going to fit. So if you are going to build a contender, I don't know if you can do that and let these three or four guys ride off into the sunset the way they want to at the same time. Am I wrong on that, Roger? Like, how do I, how is that too much to ask for a team to that is aging like this with the group? Like, oh, no, no, no.

We're going to double and triple down with the, with our core guys who are in their mid to late 30s and injured as opposed to breaking this up. Can you do both? I don't think you can really do both at the stage in the career where these guys are. If you're, if you're, I mean, when has it happened before that you've watched guys age, you know, in the same uniform, the same core, start to lose skill set to some degree and still be in a championship window as the team pays tribute to their careers that have been, you know, dynastic for the, like, that doesn't happen. It's hard to do. What you're paying those guys at that point probably isn't reflective of what they're able to do for you in terms of overall production to win a championship. So it's a very hard thing. I'm not going to say it can't be done, but I don't know when it has been done.

And you have to hit on every draft pick, every minimum free agent signing. Everything has to go right to be able to support guys as they age. is stuff still playing great. Draymond's still doing things, but Clay is not. Right? And so like every year you creep into that, there's a percent chance that one of the two that are still playing to their level is not going to be playing to that level.

Right? You're getting older. You know, injuries happen. Father time is undefeated. And so it just becomes exponentially harder. I just don't, I don't think you can do that. I don't think you can do both.

What does this do for the organization, Howard, to keep this group together for as long as possible, right? Like we know this. We're both Bay Area kids. The Warriors don't have runs like this, right? This is kind of, this is uncharted territory for them to go through this. And as a legacy act, are they, is that just good enough for an organization like this?

Who hasn't won championships in a long time? Like, where do you see this fit or see why they would do something like this and not pivot to the next, next iteration of the roster around Steph? So I don't think you pivot until you have to, no matter who you are, no matter where you are, no matter how long it was between championships or anything, like before this era. Like, it's more just that you have Steph still playing, I would say at an MVP type level.

No, that doesn't mean he's in the MVP conversation. People relax, but he is still performing at that level. And if he had, you know, the right support around him, he'd be in the MVP conversation. He can't be there now because of their record and he can't be there because of just everything going on there. You're obligated as an organization to do everything possible to extend the era as long as your superstar

still playing at a level where he can carry you. And Steph still can. So they did not have the right opportunities at the trade deadline to fortify the roster. You know, Steph, you know, the funny thing was, even when this team was at its peak, there's different peaks. When they had Durant, you had obviously two superstars, right?

Two MVP caliber guys. But the first championship was more of the strength and numbers thing. Clay was an all-star, but he's not, you know, he's not that level. Dremont's great, but not that. So they've done it a different way before. They've won championships. And then, of course, the fourth title, the one without Durant was an ensemble version. Like, they have, there's still a window here.

And so I just think it's about the window. And the window is determined entirely by Steph Curry. And you don't give up on it until Steph goes to decline or, and this isn't going to happen, I don't think in this case, but like if Steph asked out or something, said, listen, I think we've hit the end of our run, but I'm not the end of my run. Send me somewhere where I can go tack on another title or two or chase another one. But I don't think anybody in the world believes that that's ever going to happen. So no, that everything is still steered toward.

What can we do to extend the dynasty? Is there another title run left in this team? And then the question becomes, like, what is, quote, unquote, this team, right? This summer, it may have come to pass that this team means it's not Clay anymore. And then we'll say, are the Warriors to the Warriors if Clay is not there. Does he come back for a lesser number and a lesser role? And does that give them the room to add somebody else? What levers can they pull?

Because that's the other thing. Like, this is the time when you really need another star. Now we're not, like, building around that four, right? Because. No. Right. Like, I mean, that's the, for me, that's the thing. I agree with everything you said.

But as it pertain to like what Logan asked about, like, when you asked me, Logan, about building around that four, that's really difficult as they start to decline. Like, you can, the window can be open. But are all four of those players or all four of the components of the big four still players in the window being open? I don't, I don't, that's not, that's going to be very hard to do. Yeah, because the biggest thing that I, like, gathered while, like, kicking it would have was. was what I, my, my interpretation of everything that I heard from them is they'd rather win a title with their core guys and write off into the sunset that way, then win a title in the way that like a LeBron will win a title, right? Where it's like, no, I want to win a title. I want to, like, it's more of a singular thing, right?

Like, they would, they want to win a title on their terms. And if that means, hey, we just ride off on the sunset and we. don't win, then okay, and then we'll go from there. Like, I just don't know if there's a balance that they're not, it's not even two years ago anymore, right? Like, two years ago, maybe, yeah, but these guys, like, Clay is a shell of himself at this point. He is, like, offensively and defensively.

Remember, like, Clay was one of the best defenders in the league. Spiritually. Spiritually, he's a shell of himself out there. Like, I'm not even throwing shade at him. Like, that's, he, that's a. to a different degree, but I remember that point in my career where you still felt like it might be there. People didn't think it was there. The numbers didn't support it.

And the weird place that that puts you in spiritually and confidence-wise. And I wasn't half the player he is. So I couldn't even imagine how hard that's got to be for him. But it's very, very difficult. You can see him, you can see that. Rob, what's that on the day-to-day like, right? Like where your mind is saying, like, because he's Clay Thompson, bro, he's the second-best shooter of all time. And he's missing bunnies.

You can tell when you're watching him. I know you've watched a few games this year where he's hesitating. He's not, you know, it's not the same confidence in his jump shot. He's kind of just like throwing that shit at the rim at this point. Especially in a lot of times. What is that process like where your mind is like, bro, I've been doing this my whole career. And now my body is just not following through what my mind thinks it could do. There are a lot of emotions.

I mean, you're confused. You're disappointed. your first instinct is going to be to just work through it because you've been in slumps before. And every slump you've been in up to this point, you've been able to work your way out of it, whatever that work looks like. Everybody's got a different process to get out of a slump. But you're like 100% sure when it starts that that's all it is. So you just work.

You don't see the results. You work more. You start to have a little confidence. Slipage doubt creeps in. And doubt is the killer of, many a game, bro. Like, when you believe unequivocally that you can do this,

you're like a superhero. You know, like you go out there and you're like, professional athletes, you know, good ones are like superheroes in their own mind. Like, what the fuck? This is what I do.

I don't give a damn. This is getting done. When doubt creeps in and then there's a physical decline, I mean, it can be a very sad, sad place. And so you're searching. Like Clay is searching for answers.

How do I get it back? How do I find it? I was in the gym yesterday. This shit is good. It's fine. Now, you get out there on that court and the speed gets ratcheted up a little bit from that workout that you were fine in yesterday and it's not fine. And you're like, well, why? It's kind of like back to your rookie season except you're not as like, it's kind of like you're back in your rookie season except your body isn't what it is.

But like, you know when your rookie season where everything is so fucking fast? It's going in reverse. like it's it's it's going in reverse so like now the game you know the speed of the game like when you came into the league you were hyper athletic you were fast you were twitchy mentally like everything was good you might not fully understand what's going on but physically you're good everyone else is just moving really fast so the game is moving fast right and mentally you have to kind of catch up to that towards the end of it like mentally you're fine you're processing all of this stuff the games the game shouldn't be moving fast in a way that you can't compete except now your body can't

your body can't keep up with your mind. So it's moving fast for the opposite reason. It's now I physically can't do it. My brain is right where it's supposed to be. Yeah. That's such a mind fuck, man. That's such a mind fuck. I want to get back to Steph where,

because he's the center of all of this. And, you know, one of the things that, you know, I asked him was the, uh, about was the perception that,

you know, he doesn't really call out the front office publicly, right? And I don't, I think that's pretty much. reality to a large degree, right? He isn't the LeBron, you know, archetype who is going to put public pressure on the front office. But it felt like going into, you know, this trade deadline of all deadlines, you would put, you know, some level of pressure on them. And I asked him about that, and I want to get your take, Howard. I asked him about, you know, that perception. And he responded,

he said, just because you all don't know about it, doesn't mean conversations aren't happening. And also, I've been with the same organization for the whole time. So there's a different dynamic and a different trust level and consistent communication that happens behind the scenes. It's not like January comes around. It's the first time we talk about something. And I'm not in the middle of everybody's perspective. Whether I agree or not, there's a constant communication and a constant understanding

from Joe all the way down, what's going on. And everybody's allowed to do their job. That's how I put it. And my question to you, Howard, is, is that the right approach that the Warriors need at this, do they need a fire under their ass? Or is what Steph doing going, is that the correct course of action

at this very moment based on the level of talent he is? The amount of years he has left and where the warriors are right now? So Steph has been with this organization, obviously from the beginning of his career and Joe Lekub has been the owner

of this team for the vast majority of that, if not all of it, I think just a majority of it. Bob Myers has left, but Steph and Joe Lacob have a relationship. Steph and Mike Dunleavy Jr. have a relationship. Anybody who is in charge there in any form or fashion in any capacity, I'm sure has open lines of communication with Steph. And the analogy of people there have used,

and I think Bob Myers had said this to me a couple years ago, is like Steph is like Tim Duncan. Like he's not quite as quiet as Tim Duncan, especially public. but like he is this low maintenance superstar where he does everything you could possibly want from your superstar leads by example just consummate pro consummate good guy but he's not going to like you know throw his weight around publicly or stamp his feet or you know put out passive aggressive emoji tweets that's not his way of leading and it's not his way of influencing but to step's point to you logan like it's not that doesn't mean he's not having

those conversations. And I'm sure they are. But, you know, if this is why you have to have a good line of communication with your star in the first place. If you go to him and say, like, Steph, hey, would you like some upgrades? Yeah, of course I would love some upgrades to the roster. Yeah, like I would like to capitalize on this season and try to make a run. What's out there? And then they come back and they say, you know, it's Zach Levine before Zach Levine got, you know, out for the season. it's this guy. If everything they're presenting to you, you can see does not push the ball forward

or it's going to cost us these guys. When they come to a conclusion of not making any major moves of the deadline, it's probably because they had that conversation. And I'm guessing Steph was on the same page with them about that. If he wasn't, we wouldn't know about it. Because it's just not the way he operates. And I don't know that he has to or should.

The way that they've operated to date has worked. But I have no doubt that those conversations are ongoing and that they're going to go right into June and July when they're trying to retool again. What kind of balance should a star and a team strike in that regard, right? Because we've seen one extreme with Bronin and we see the other extreme with Steph and they both are those generational talents. Where do you side on that argument? Are you the public pressure side? Are you like, hey, man, let's let's work through this together. or where are you on that side? No, I never really love the public pressure.

If you're making me, I mean, I understand at times while you use that tool. It's not my style, though. So I much rather the Steph Curry approach, which is, you know, collaborative and trusting and keeping those type of things, you know, between the people who need to know about them rather than playing them out in the media. Yeah, and that's not to really judge what LeBron does. I think he's been in situations where for one reason or another, something's happened where he doesn't fully trust that the club,

you know, will prioritize, like, maximizing the window that they're in. Do you know, like, for whatever reasons. And I think that Steph and ownership and executives in Golden State have the relationship that you and Howard, just kind of, you know, articulated where he believes and trust in their vision and their ability to kind of execute it. And they're aligned in that way where it doesn't even, even if it, even if it ran across his mind at some point, like it doesn't need to happen. Like he, he trusts that they'll do it. And so I appreciate that, you know, it might not work in every

situation, but I do respect that he handles his business like that. I think it's a very mature approach. And I think it's built, you know, the word, you know, in any relationship that that's the most critical is trust. It's interesting. I had another, I had a quote before we get out of here and get done talking about the Warriors. I had a quote for Raja. Now, one of the big storylines in the Bay Area is how Kerr is coaching and how Kerr is coaching Jonathan Kaminga. And especially over the years with the, uh, the warriors relationship with young guys. I mean, that's well documented as we've seen last season, right? And I think that in a lot of always comminga is the last

guy that they have drafted, where they're like, okay, this is the one that's going to hit. This is the one that's going to figure itself out. And he's, comminga has been going through growing pains. Curris taking him out a lot in crutch time situations, despite him having a career year this season. And this is a quote that Steve told me during,

you know, when I asked about that. And I thought about you, Roger, when he said it, he goes, the thing that I tell coaches on our staff is that we're doing the job that the college coach is used to do for us. We're now taking

freshmen and sophomores and trying to turn them into juniors and seniors. It's just that everybody wants it now. The players want it now, the fans want it now. But until a player really grasp it wins, and that means boxing out,

I mean, it's all the fundamental stuff. But then also knowing who you are as a player, everybody has to figure out who they are as a player. And that was in reference to Jonathan Kaminga, but also every young player that sees a little bit of great success.

And I think Kamenga is one of those guys who was going to be a really good player in this league. But Steve always is a guy that's like, well, that's cool that you scored 28, but you missed this box out and you missed this defensive assignment in this rotation. Or you settled for a jump shot when we need you to go to the cup. What did you feel when you heard that quote, Raja? And how do you, how does that explain like a type of coach that Steve is? And if that's going to be effective as you're trying to win a title and you're having to develop on the fly. Like, what is that job that Steve is having to do right now in your eyes based on what you've seen and what you've heard?

I mean, it's a balancing act, right? Between, you know, continuing to develop this young talent and let it make mistakes that it can learn from and grow because of, but not cost yourself too many games because of it. but also, you know, be punitive enough at times where that also would teach him, hey, these are the consequences. Like if we can't get X, Y, and Z right, and X, Y, and Z contributes pretty much universally to winning basketball games, if we can't get that right, then I'm going to have to sit you down.

And that's a little bit of tough love. And that's the balancing act that any coach plays. Championship windows become harder to develop that talent in because, quite frankly, you don't have the time to waste. You don't have the losses at your disposal to kind of bake seven of them in while you're trying to develop this talent. So, you know, I think Steve's doing a good job. Like I'm not breaking down John.

I think Camagos game, but I would agree with him in that a lot of basketball players because of our young ones, because of our culture and our grassroots culture, while super Uber talented and can do really cool things like score 28 in an NBA game, that same talent might not really understand what contributes to winning. I've had this rant before. Like that talent a lot of times comes in and thinks that the 28 are their contribution to the win and they discount everything else that goes into it, all the small little details, all of the minutia.

And I'm not, this isn't a Jonathan Kaminga thing. this is what I would guess when Steve Kerr is giving you that quote. This is what he's talking about. Like 28 is dope. Like we want him to score 28 all the time. We also want him to be able to, you know, positionally defend and be in help when he needs to be there. And crack down on the weak side big if our guys got to go catch somebody outside the paint so that he's not on that glass. Like any, all of these little things that add up over the course of a game have to be taught.

And because we're coming out younger and younger, we have less and less experience. And quite frankly, the stock isn't put in it at the grassroots level. It's trickling up. So he's right. Like they're having to deal with it at the pro level on the fly in real time. It's interesting, Howard, that we're like we're in this stage right now of development. And I kind of want to get off of the comminga as like as a proxy for this. But even when we talk about college right now, like with NIL, like development isn't

prioritize. It's like if you want to develop someone at this point in college and you tell them and they don't have the right mindset, it's like, I'm just going on the portal. Like, I'm not going to necessarily like just stick this out. Like, what is that going to do for the game long term where we don't necessarily have the development prioritized at the grassroots to now college level as much as we, I think we used to. You know, it's funny. I've had this conversation even recently with somebody, an executive from a Western Conference

team and just about the idea that like you know the u.s has just failed uh forever basically at at creating um the right kind of grass like the NBA and the NBA attempted this in this weird form of like 15 years ago go Google i hoops small I that was when everything had to be I something because of the iPod and the iPad and everything i hoops it lasted like five minutes and I think if I'm recalling correctly, it was the NBA's attempt to like have kind of a universal approach where from the grassroots up, we're going to get guys into, I don't know, whatever, like an NBA academy type setting instead of an EU or instead of all these other just, you know, various forms where maybe those leagues or those associations are emphasizing the wrong thing, right? Whereas players in Europe, like this,

this gets very dicey when you have these discussions, but, you know, the European model with the academies, guys are playing from a young age and the, the whole. program is about more like it's it's more holistic i don't know what the answer to that is that's that's way way above all of our pay grades but um maybe there's a better way and but to your point of your conversation with steve where he's saying like we get these guys they're really young and it's as if they're you know like they're they would be sophomores or juniors in college like kumink is still 21 that's really young for an NBA player wow moody's 21 pods pods is going to turn 21 and like another, I think a week or so here, I was just looking it up.

Like, their young players are really young. And on a team that despite their record still has the highest aspirations and expectations because of Steph and because of what they've accomplished over the last decade. And so the patience just isn't there. Like sometimes it's the players who lack the patience. Sometimes it's the people around them. A lot of times, and certainly the case with Warriors fans, it's the fans who are like, why isn't this guy already playing 35 minutes a night?

why aren't you giving him more rope? Well, Rajah could speak to this. When we're watching stuff and we're like seeing like, oh, this guy, every time I see him out there, he's putting up numbers. Oh, he looks great. Why don't they play him more? There's almost always a reason, folks. And it's reasons that we can't see and are not privy to because the coaches see them way more than we do. And they know what their attitude is and what they're doing in film sessions or not doing, whether they're coming in early, whether they're all that stuff, putting in the work.

There's usually a reason, not always, but usually. Well put, well said, Howard. Here's the thing. I say this shit all the time. Look, I want to touch on a lot of what was just said. So before I lose my train of thought. Number one, I say this shit all the time to people. Why do you think a coach would not play someone that they think gives them a better chance to fucking win a game?

Exactly. Like, what the fuck do you think is going on? You think somebody just going to look down the bench and be like, man, I know Logan can definitely win this game for us. But fuck Logan. What? It doesn't make any sense. Hey man, it's about politics, bro. What you mean, bro?

It's politics. Occasionally. They're not trying to see me shine, Roger? What you mean? Yeah, I mean, you burned a lot of bridges, my dog. But like, you're right. I mean, and that happens, though. That happens sometimes.

But did I have to be fucked up? Okay. All right. I mean, you were acting like, you know, like, you put the car for doors, bro. I think it's your sense of entitlement, Logan. That's the problem. Yeah, yeah, you walked in. Like, it was owed to you.

But, but, but. But far too often, like, I want to touch on, like, I want to touch on the development thing, right? When people hear the word development, I see it all the time. It's physical. It's skill set. It's, can he handle the shit out of the ball? Can he create his own shot? You know, how good of a shooter is he?

It's, it's, you know, how physical is he? Does he, can he jump over the rim? Like, these are physical development things. And that's a part of it. But that's about, that's the, that's the surface level. And that's where we stop a lot of times. That's where we stop a lot of times at the youth and high school level. There's emotional development.

There's overall mental development. There's situational development. Development as a whole is not just physical. And so we as a culture typically just develop the physical part of a player in a way that leaves a lot to be developed when they get where they're going and they're at. to do some of those things to contribute to winning. For a Kaminga, like, you're on a bad team in the NBA? Yeah, man, send him out there and score 28 fucking points tonight.

Who cares? Who cares if there's a lot left in the other areas to develop? We're not chasing anything right now. They just don't have that luxury, you know, in Golden State. But big picture, we struggle to develop the whole player sometimes. Now, there are guys out there that do it. They're youth programs that do it. But our culture is set up that any jackass can have an AAU program.

You see it all the time. Like, you see it all the time. And where I live, they don't pay coaches great. Like Florida doesn't pay their football coach is great. That's why a lot of our talent goes away to schools and it has to wait to play. It can't get on the field right away. Now, it'll be in the NFL in four years and probably be an all pro. But it had to be developed when it got where it was going.

because they don't pay our high school coaches anything. Like our high school basketball coaches, there are some good ones, don't get me wrong, but there are some tragic ones where you'll sit there and be like, what is going on? It's because we don't, you know,

and so that, when you have a league that, and I'm sorry, I'm on a little bit of a rant, but when you have a league that swings, it swung very quickly from more convoluted multiple action type of sets to less sets, more spread, more individual play,

because the analytics supported that to some degree. Not that there aren't some teams running really good shit, but the nuance of the offense was lost a little bit when that happened, right? Defense too, because now you're just basically standing and guarding one-on-one or being in help. You're not having to navigate the amount of screens and cross-screens and different actions, right? So when the pendulum swings to that really quickly, you know, these guys that I'm talking about at these youth and high school levels see it. And they're like, that's the way to do it. But what they've discounted is the guys that are doing it at the pro level are already seasoned in all of that other shit.

They are fully developed mentally, physically, spiritually, situationally, they got it. So they can play that way. They're never going to lose the development. Well, you took it right to a high school and implemented it because you saw it on TV and you discounted. counted that none of these little jokers are developed to that degree yet. So you're just going to play like that, and they don't get the development, man. Like, it's a, like, this is a source of frustration for me, man. But, but that's what it is, man.

It's facts. Like, we, we just don't develop, we don't develop the entire player in the way that some other places do. But we've got so much raw talent and athleticism that we're able to overcome. I mean, it's going to, I mean, I'll leave it at this. It's going to catch up to the U.S. on a world stage pretty soon. I'll say that. Well, it's bit, it's bit, it's, it's, it's, it's bitness in the ass before.

It has, but, you know. We have some phenomenal talents, though. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. We'll say a quick break. And we'll talk about another phenomenal talent on the other side of the break. Get buckets with your first bet on Bandw, America's number one sports book. Because right now, new customers get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5 bet.

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Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit the ringer. slash RG. First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-witrable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.bendool.com. And we are back. You know, we didn't have a show on Thursday because, you know, it was on the rope. It was a, we missed talking about Kobe's statue unveiling.

And I really wanted to get locked in at least, you know, spend about 20 minutes on. this because I have two guys that are linked to to Bean and Howard and and and and Raja obviously I'll just start with Howard though when you saw all the festivities like what was that like for you who saw this man on a day-to-day basis right and he's getting immortalized in this way where there what were the feelings like how did we and what did you think of the overall event from the things that you saw 3,000 miles away. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. You can't do this too big. There's nothing too big in celebrating Kobe Bryant's life and career at this stage. I thought the ceremony was, it was impactful.

It was emotional. It's weird to think that, first of all, it's now been four years since Kobe died. and I feel like every tribute since then you lose a little bit more of kind of the raw emotion. Now it becomes more of a celebration. And so I think what struck me most with this one was all the other ways of which he has been celebrated and memorialized over the last few years, this is the one where it started to just feel, I think, I don't know, I just the least anguished, right? It was almost pure celebration. And it's not to say that everybody up on that stage obviously has deep emotions and deep ties and misses Kobe greatly, obviously. For me, at a, you know, at a literal and figurative distance, I just thought it was cool.

I was really curious, like, what, you know, what were they going to settle on in terms of the ultimate pose for the statue? I don't know what I thought it should have been or could have been. I didn't really give it much thought about what the options were, but I thought they settled on a pretty good one. And I guess there's going to be, there's going to be two more statues to add to it, which feels a little excessive. But this is the same organization that retired both number eight and 24 for Kobe in terms of the jerseys. So, and I get it. One of those other statues is going to be Kobe and Gigi. So, like, I thought it was good.

I thought they, you know, the Lakers do this stuff right. What do you think, Sina Ra? What am I supposed to say to it, man? Like, it's just a, there's still a hole there, right? Like, there's still a hole. And you're trying to fill it. And the effort, it's worthy as hell. Like, I agree with Howard.

It was fantastic. You can't do it too big. It still just doesn't fill the hole. You know what I mean? Like, and it's just what it is. But I thought it was well done. I loved, I didn't watch the whole ceremony, but I love some of the, some of the videos that I saw, you know, Powell Gasol with Kobe's daughter and, you know, Vanessa up at the podium.

Like, it was, it was dope. I thought it was a fantastic. you know, effort by the Lakers, but, you know, when something like that, you just don't fill the hole. And I don't mean to turn it like to a somber pod. And I agree with Howard that it was, it was less somber than any of the other, you know, Kobe tributes. Like, so there's some healing taking place, but, you know, there's just, there's just still a hole. And I think as a basketball community from where he was kind of in, in his point of retirement and what he was starting to do to give back, not only to the young generation with his daughters, but to some of the

young generation of NBA Hoopers, like, and starting to really, you know, dive into, to giving back. Like, you know, that's just a hole there. It's funny. Howard, you talked about, like, just even how the Lakers did this ceremony and pulled it off, right? What does that say about the Lakers organization in that way, right? Because they are the glamour franchise in the league. They are the team that airs all of his good stuff and bad stuff for everybody to see. And I think that's, you know, they have a special connection both to the league and their fan base. What do you think about this, you know, what this time currently, and I know we have a lot more time. We'll have hindsight to 2020.

But what do you think that this statue says about, you know, this time in Laker history and where we are there? Because, you know, that night, Braun Place. And, you know, it's like generations intersecting like. where are we in and in and in in in in history right now if you had to guess it's it's really fascinating right because that they scheduled the statue unveiling specifically um for that date for uh you know numerology reasons or whatever symbolic reasons um and also have it to be the trade deadline um and so and then you have that you know everybody sitting around waiting to see like are they going to get lebron more help what's lebron going to say what's the brawn going to do

So it was all the, like the past or present were very much colliding because Lakers exceptionalism and expectations about championships being delivered, you know, on a regular basis. It's always, it's always there. And so here you are celebrating Kobe and all he represented in the five championships that he delivered or helped deliver while they're in this really angsty present of what's LeBron want. What's he going to say? What's he going to do? What's he going to do this summer? is he going to opt out? What's he going to say about the fact

they didn't make any moves at the deadline? Can they get back into contention? It's just like with the Lakers, the past is always present. It's just, you know, and it was almost literal last Thursday because of the statue unveiling with Kobe. But it's it,

but it just underscores what we already know. Like there's no, nothing is acceptable in, in Lakerdom except title, contention and titles. And here they are in the midst of yet another angsty season with LeBron where they don't have quite enough around him. He's still playing at a really high level and everyone's wondering what they're going to do next or if they can pull anything off and if they don't, what it means for

LeBron's future and thus the Lakers future. It's perfectly Lakers. I was not like to see from a far rise of like I don't feel like there's ever a drama free Lakers season in general. Like when you were playing in the league and you saw, especially from, you know, the Sun's perspective. Like, what did you guys think when you guys saw the Lakers? Like, these motherfucking these fucking drama kings again, like these motherfuckers again. Like, every other day they're in the news. And not only are they in the news, they are perpetuated by,

they're always a news story no matter what they do. You know, you go NBA today. There's probably going to be a Laker story today, you know? Like, so how do you, what does it like to see from the outside looking in? Well, we, I mean, when I played, I didn't know what was going on with the Lakers. Like that was for Laker fans and for the media Like I didn't I didn't know what the fuck was going on with the Lakers Laker Dumb You wouldn't be I didn't into the propaganda at all

You know you don't have the time you got you have your own shit going on right like we So only only in the regard of like you know how do we best prepare ourselves to beat them if we have to face them like that's the only Laker talk that would whatever be around the suns when I was there or the Sixers or anybody else for that reason So like but now that I'm on this side of the mic I understand like I get it I see it I didn't really pay much attention to it when I played, though. Before we get to questions, you brought up to Sixers. I was in your old stomping grounds at Wells Fargo Center, Raja. And I just want to say I saw where the visitor's locker room is versus where you had to run and sprint to go get Dion Waiters at one time.

And I'm like, man, that's it. Like, it's not far, but it's not close either, right? And that tunnel gets crowded. So kudos to you, pal. Like, I don't know how you swim, move and got people through and stuff. But, like, I was like, damn, Roger had to put in some work to get from this locker room to go get Dion. So, you know, shout out to you. I appreciate that.

A lot of the same people were around. It's like, so I knew them. So I had a little escort. Like, I was like, yo, I get out there. Can you please expedite this? So shout out to them for making it possible. Roger, were you playing in Philly when it was the first union center, otherwise known as the FU Center? The FU Center.

Was it the first union center? You don't remember this? It might have been before your time. That arena has undergone more corporate name changes than any. It might have been. Was it the FU Center? I don't really remember. That was the greatest nickname for an arena we've had.

I know this. I got to go. I mean, that was a cool place to play it, but it was nothing like when we played the Lakers in the finals and we practiced at the Spectrum a few times. Oh, wow. That was fantastic because I had grown up,

like my mom's from that area. So the Sixers, Dr. Jay, Mocheeks, Moses, like those dudes. So the Spectrum was like, one of my best basketball moments. Bro, I had my first, like, real cheese steak, like, cooked and all that stuff. And, like, it was, bro, I went to Chubbies. Hoof. This week?

This week? I mean, when you were there just now? I went to, yeah, I went to Chubbies. It got to be a cheese steak, bro. That shit was amazing, dog. Like, we, Philly people always say it ain't nothing like a cheese steak. And, you know, some West Coasters, because, you know, we're close to elitist and we're assholes. We get a Philly cheese steak up the street.

No, it's not the same. it's not it's amazing like seasoned greasy is all hell it's great but also before we get to questions Raymond Ritter

told me to tell you hello PR band for the Warriors and he's just beamed with pride that because I was like yeah man no it's like how's everything going and I'm doing the pilot Roger

Roger Bell he was a former warrior yeah it's my guy he'll play one game but like my time was so brief but like they're all good folks. It was just beaming with pride that you were part of the family somehow. Like, yeah, he was very excited.

Tell Raymond, I said, what's up? Raymond, if you're listening, what up? What up? What up, Ray? No Kerm today, but we have Killa Kai in the motherfucking building. Third-Eye is here to give us some questions. What's up, Kai? How you doing, bud?

Good to pinch it for Kerm here. I got this first one's from Tom. He said, hey, y'all, love the pod and all the other stuff you put out. I think most people would probably agree Jamal Murray has proven that he can take it to another level in big games in the playoffs. However, he also tends to routinely have his worst games against the weaker teams in the league. Does this work against him when it comes to the All-Star recognition

because it gives off coasting vibes for the regular season? Now, to be a hater, it's wild that players that are legitimate third options on their teams and Paul George and Kat are being rewarded when the nuggets have routinely been a top four seed the last three years and have never been given a second All-Star with how well Aaron Gordon and Jamal Murray. play. So does this work against him for his all-star recognition?

Yeah, that's, it's interesting. Tom, thanks for the question. Listen, I don't know that it works against him for coast. Like, people think he coasts. I mean, maybe they just, you know, it could be viewed as inconsistent. I don't think that anyone thinks he necessarily coasts. You know, I would agree with the success of Denver and having legitimate, like, second options out there that they should be rewarded with more than one MVP. I'm not going to get into anybody else's case.

I mean, not MVP, but all-star participants. I'm not going to really get into the Paul George and all that kind of stuff. But I would agree with him. But, you know, there's more that goes into it than that. Like when them dudes are voting and the league's trying to do that type of stuff. And it's unfortunate, but that's real talk. I think people read way too much into the Jamal Murray getting snubbed kind of thing. Because if you look at when the Nuggets became the Nuggets, I mean, obviously they just won the championship last year.

They've been a really good team for the last few years. But Jamal Murray has been hurt. for a lot of that. Like his first season averaging over 20 points, so we'll just use it as kind of the marker, was 2020, 21, and he played 48 out of 72 that year. Then he tears the ACL, misses an entire season, plays 65 games out of 82 last season, and it's 39 so far this season. Like, he's just missed a lot of games. And so there's a lot of things that go into this. And, you know, it's the coaches who vote on the reserves. So you can't, you can't blame the fans and the popularity. you can't blame the media or whoever else.

Like he's not going to be a starter in a stacked Western conference where there's always like a ton of guards. So he's got to be a reserve. And the coaches, you know, give the coaches credit. Like you may not always agree with the reserves, but the coaches obviously know this game at a level the rest of us don't. And they do a pretty good job. And there's only X number of spots.

And Jamal Murray's been banged up a lot. So I don't think there's anything more to it than that. He's obviously an all-star caliber player. And he's obviously the second most important player on the defending champs. And they may repeat for all we know. And he gets plenty of recognition outside of just All-Star voting. But the game's played obviously has heard. Yeah.

Also, like I'm looking at the roster. Like who are you going to put him ahead in the reserve? You're going to put him ahead of Devin Booker? Probably not. You're going to put him against Steph this season? No. You're going to put him up. You're going to replace him with Anthony Edwards.

You're going to take his spot? No. I just don't see the people based on this season that you're going to put him ahead, right? Like, you're not going to put Jamal Murray ahead of those guys as a guard. And it's simple as that. And based on, you know, the market in Denver, like he's not one of those stars that's just going to get voted in.

So kind of got what you got. But shout out to Denver, man, you know. I know I've been hard on them, but they're probably going to win the West this year. And, you know, shout out to Denver. But you're not going to. you're not going to place those guys and placate those guys. It's not happening. And you got any more?

Yeah, we got two more. Up next, this one's from Bradley. I know Tatum looks the part and it's all love, but I was digging into his stats and was surprised by his advanced numbers. Like true shooting percentage and player efficiency rating are shockingly low for a supposed to be best guy on a title team. I can't think of many examples of champs who didn't have, didn't also have the best player alive the season they won.

I know those advanced stats aren't the end-all be-all. So I'm wondering if you guys think Tatum can actually outplay a Yokic, Yanis, and a hopefully healthy Embed. I'll start off, no. I don't think so. And I'm going to be honest with you. I'm skeptical about this Celtics team going deep into the postseason. They're talented.

They're at times the best team in the league. But there's too much history, recent history, about the Celtics in the postseason for me to ever trust them. I need, no matter how good Tatum is playing. I know he got injured in Game 7. That was a big deal last, the Eastern Conference Finals. But they haven't shown me enough from both of their Js that they are going to, that they can do it.

Not that they can't do it, but that they have to still prove to me once they get there. Like, I'm not trying to see the Celtics once again get punked by a less talented team. just because they're not ready. They've done that the last two seasons. So it's one of those wait-and-see approaches. I'm dubious about the Celtics until proven otherwise. The answer is yes. The answer is yes.

He can. Will he? That's another question, right? And he hasn't as of yet. But yeah, I think he can, man. I think, you know, he's in his sixth year. What, seventh year now? Six in?

Is this his seventh? I mean, I don't know exactly. But, you know, people learn as they play. We talked about overall development. coming in. Now, he was the beneficiary of probably better development at Duke than a lot of other players,

but they're still learning to be done at the NBA level. You know, not just to play at a high level, but then once you get to that level on how to close deals and how to win and how to do that, and I think, you know,

he's accumulating knowledge and experience, and he can, for sure. Will he? That's another question. Yeah, I mean, the Celtics, it seems like they are dogged by the same concerns

that they've had for however many years running during this Tatum and Brown era, which is that crunch time, they resort to a lot of ISO play. They've got two incredibly athletic, strong, long-limbed guys who are at the center of their offense who don't get to the line enough, who don't attack enough, and who settle for threes at an opportune moments. They just get in these ruts. And also, I don't think either Brown or Tatum are elite playmaker types either. So I've always thought they needed a point guard, like a truly strong point guard.

on this team. They've never really had that. They've forced fed Marcus Smart into that role. Obviously, you know, Kyrie came and went, but like the forced fed Marcus Smart of that role. And he adapted, but like he's not really your classic playmaking type. You know, they've got, you know, Drew Holliday's not, you know, the traditional version of a point guard, neither is Derek White. They've got guys who can handle the ball and run things.

But like getting the offense settled in crunch time and getting, having Tatum and Brown play off the ball so that they're not, you know, burning so much of the shot clock and can get easier opportunities, more efficient opportunities. I think that's a big part of it. But I think both those guys also have evolved. Like they're better,

I think they're better in terms of their judgment than they were a couple of years ago. But yeah, I'm with Raja. Yes, Tatum can be the best player on a championship team. Will they win it this year? I don't know. We'll see. But, you know, the talent's undeniable. What's the last one, Kai?

Last one here is rapid up with Greg's question. He said, Hi, guys, I feel like the goat debate between LeBron and Jordan is played out at this point. No one is changing their mind. What I would love to hear from you is who is your all-time starting five?

Mine is Magic, Jordan, Bird, LeBron, Kareem. He says, is it cheating to move LeBron to the four? Would you send Larry Legend to the bench and start Dunkin at the four? Is Kareem the starting center? Or do you go with Russell, Chamberlain, or someone else? Let us know your thoughts.

Let's get it. Where are we at, Ra? Let's go. I have to go to the restroom. Howard. Roger chickened out. Wait, Roger just left, and I don't know if he's coming back. He did actually leave to go to the bathroom. So I don't know if he's going to. Go ahead, Howard.

Let's see if he comes back. I mean, he may have just left just because he just didn't feel like it. We can't prove he's going to the bathroom. I don't want him to prove that he's going to the bathroom. I'm just saying, like, he may have just disappeared from the mic just because. He may be going to make a sandwich for all we know. Probably. All the time starting, I'm terrible at these things, man,

because every single one of these discussions, and this includes the goat discussion, this includes greatest team ever discussions. It's always trying to make these impossible comparison across eras in which the game has changed dramatically the style of the game, the pace of the game, the players themselves, like, I don't know, man. These things are impossible. So I default to things like, all right, listen,

I'll do like top like the starting five of the guys who played during the time I've covered the league or something, right? Like the guys I saw and it's not even going to be like greatest because I don't know how to, I don't know how to decide that, right? I default to the guys who I loved watching play who I appreciated something about their game and who were definitely all time greats. But if I pick Kobe at shooting guard, it doesn't mean I think he's better than Jordan or better than whoever, right? but I would go like probably Steph and Kobe in the back court, right? Kobe I covered for seven years early in his career.

Steph, I've never covered on a daily basis, but I've really enjoyed all the times I've gotten to go cover that team. Also just the way Steph plays, the way he carries himself. He's, and he's just exciting. I would probably go shack at center. Again, I'm defaulting to a guy I covered.

LeBron has to be one of the forward spots, and I think Durant's the other one. So there you go. There's my starting five of, like the 97 to 1997 to the president of the NBA I've covered. Oh look, it's Rajah Bell. He's back. Oh, hey, Ron's back. I really did. I had to use the restroom. Hey,

buddies. I'm the only one that's probably going to actually do a list here. Howard chickened out. Rogers is a coward. He just left as soon as he heard it out. I just gave you a five. Yeah, the five people that you cover. Yeah, that's not the question. All right. I'll give one. I'll do it. I'm going to take the fall for hip hop. Okay, let me do it. I'll do Kareem at the five. I'll do LeBron at the four. Okay. I'll do I'll do Jordan at the three. I'll do Steph at the two and I'll do Magic at the one. So boom. How about that? Great list. Thank you guys for all your

questions. Make sure you tap in with us every Monday for motherfucking mailbags in our Monday mailbag. We will answer all, you know, some of your questions. We appreciate all the real ones. All right, man, I'm about to go take a nap. Okay. So you guys have fun. You guys can stay on the Riverside chat if you guys want to or see us on Thursday. Tap in all the shits. Ah, bye. Must be 21 years and older in president's select states. Fandle is offering online sports wagering in Candace under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC.

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