The Ringer NBA Show - Does Kevin Durant Belong in the GOAT Discussion? Plus, Mailbag Monday! | Real Ones

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

Logan, Raja, and Howard discuss Kevin Durant stating that he should be considered as the greatest NBA player of all time and whether or not he actually has the résumé to be in that conversation (02:00). Next, the guys talk about Udonis Haslem’s jersey retirement with the Miami Heat, why it’s important for franchises to celebrate their past, and how players should be treated on their way out (32:00). Finally, the guys close with Mailbag Monday (43:00). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday at [e-mail]! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please check out https://www.theringer.com/pages/responsiblegamingringer.com/RG to learn more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Galaxy lights, Coachella, Lightning Bolt necklaces. Did you catch all the Scandival clues? Last March, one cheating scandal launched a reality TV investigation that generated hundreds of conspiracy theories, thousands of podcast episodes, and millions of dollars in revenue. I'm Jody Walker, host of an American Scandival. Ahead of the Vanderpump Rules premiere, relive the pop culture phenomenon that rocked a reality Nation starting January 23rd on Ring or Dish. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell, there. Howard Beck in the Cut.

Motherfucking Mondays is upon us. Howard, it's been a while. How you doing, bud? I'm great. It hasn't been that long. We were off for MLK Day, so I think we wrapped it. What, two weeks ago. I saw you all. Yeah. Good to have you back, Howard. Good to have you back, bud. Thank you. You know, anything interesting happened in your life? anything anything to report okay i got nothing rogers are you good man i seen uh i seen a young and got the little offer so that's tight um yeah it's a cool time a year man like apparently the class of 2026s are

are on the clock in the in the football recruiting world so it's been uh it's been fun been fun and i'm back at it bro i was at the driving range more importantly i was at the driving range this morning for the first time in a couple of months. And although it was just intermediate iron work, if I do say so myself, it was pretty. You felt good? I did. I felt pretty good about that. How did you?

What's better when you send me the video of body in the trunk and you and your backyard shoot jumpers and everyone is going in or when you're at the driving range? And what's a better feeling to you these days? Yeah, driving range for sure, because it's a, I mean, it's something that I haven't mastered or something I haven't done in a while. And so when you hit it well, when you're having that day out there,

and you feel like it's kind of pure off the face and you're hitting the same spot every time. Like, that was, that's a better feeling just because I've shot so many jump shots. Sure. Okay. All right. Speaking of questionable shots, let's go to Phoenix. Where Mr. Kevin Durant,

I don't know, is he acquaintances of the show? I have no idea. has weighed in himself into the goat discussion and a column from actual friend of the show, Dwayne Rankin of the Arizona Republic, who did a column on if Kevin Durant is the goat and posed the question to Durant himself who says, why shouldn't I be in that discussion? That's the question you should ask. why not? What haven't I done? And then to give a reason as to why he is not considered in a goat conversations. He said, quote, because I went to the warriors. And I just would like to thank Kevin Durant

for giving us a whole segment to work with and dissect and also ultimately discredit. Howard, when you heard and saw this quote as the historical aficionado we have on this pod, what did you think, how did you feel about this? Does he have a case, Kevin Durant? Man, listen, it sounds too harsh to just say like, no, of course, he doesn't have a case, because it sounds too dismissive. And he's an incredible player, a great player, a player that I've enjoyed the hell out of watching, covering. just his evolution.

I didn't mind him going to the Warriors. I don't discredit at all what he did and winning two championships with them as the MVP of both of those finals critically, right? It's one thing to say, oh, coattail riding, which happens sometimes in this league. But he was the finals MVP. He was like, you cannot discredit that. And he has an incredible resume. His stats are through the roof. He's one of the greatest scores we've ever seen, one of the greatest players period we've ever seen.

And he will be on every top 10 list, top of the pyramid type discussions for the rest of time, I believe. But Goat is different. Just real quick. When we say Goat, when Kevin Durant says goat discussion, are we talking about individual skills and achievements? Or is it about hardware? Because if it's a hardware discussion, like if he wants to put his scoring abilities up against anybody in history, cool. but at some point you have to like I know we don't like to do the count the rings thing it gets too reductive and obnoxious but like Michael Jordan has six rings and five regular season MVPs in

addition to all the finals MVP's right LeBron who is usually in this discussion with MJ has four championships four MVPs in the regular season and LeBron's been to 10 finals that's a lot of finals Bill Russell's got 11 championship rings five MVPs in the regular season. Kareve's got six rings, six MVPs in the regular season. Kevin Duret has two titles and one regular season MVP, in addition to the two finals MVP. MVP is like at some point it does become a bit of a counting game when you're talking about the greatest of all time, when you're talking about the best of the best.

And like to put him in that discussion, he just doesn't have the same trophy case. And I hate that that becomes the thing. but what else are we going to base it on? So that's where I'm at. I think that, and Roger, when I first heard of this, and I thought of the questions just to ask when I first saw this article, one of the things that really came to mind is the mindset of an athlete, which is I have to be, like, I have to assert my dominance at all times, right?

And I have to, even if it doesn't, even if the thing that I'm about to say isn't necessarily, like, right even within the nuance of what I'm saying it, athletes have to assert dominance at all times. And I felt that about this quote, right, where it's something where it's like, when you go on a court right now, Raja, you're immediately thinking, I'm going to bust his ass. I'm going to bust his ass. I'm a bust their ass. if you put all those people, even if it's all-time greats, okay, we'll bust their ass. I feel like that's what Kevin Durand is thinking to a certain degree. How much do you think of that mindset of what an athlete ultimately feels kind of went into this quote? I mean, yes, certainly to make it to that level in the NBA, you have to have the mentality of I am just cold-blooded, right?

Like clearly he's got that mentality. Most guys that play in the league have that mentality. But when like when you said, even if I went onto a court right now, I mean, we all, we all have some ability to like tap into reality every now and again. So when you said that to me, it depends on who I'm playing, right? Like it would depend on who I'm going out there and playing against whether or not I'd tell you I would definitively bust their ass or not. And so as it relates kind of to KD there, like I think there's some of that going on.

And I think Howard had a good point. we kind of blur the lines between goat in terms of overall accomplishment, championships, you know, hardware, and who just had the coldest game. And I think there's some of that going on too, but like, you know, I'm a Katie Stan. I love this game, bro.

I think he's awesome. But you can't, you can't be in the goat conversation. And that's not knocking anything at all. Like, that's just not to diminish anything. Like, you, I would put you, squarely in the tier just below the names that you would put in the goat tier. And I think that's appropriate, just given, you know, all of the accolades that Howard just told you all the other candidates have.

You just come up a little short. And that's not to take anything away from the brilliance of your offense. And for that matter, your ability to defend. Like just a Swiss army knife. He could have been an all-time defender at his peak. if he focused on that as much as he did on offense. Yeah, I mean, again, because he's such a gifted score and that size skill combination is so rare,

like we fascinate and kind of just bug out on that. But like he was a phenomenal, versatile defender too. And so I can say all that and still tell you he's probably not in the goat conversation for me. And that's coming from one of his biggest fans. Yeah. And it's interesting because

and Howard, I know can attest this. Like, Katie is one of those guys that is, in terms of ability, is going to be one of the players that defines his generation, right? And he has this weird case where, you know, he went to toe toa, Toa LeBron two years in a row and was better than him, was better than the greatest player, top one or two. You can go out of Kevin Durant at the NBA's biggest stage, not only went toe to toe to with him,

but played better than him. And that'll do something to, like if you put B and you put me against LeBron and I average 30-something and 8-and-8, I'm going to think I'm the goat too, right? Like there's, I'm going to at least have that argument to say like, oh, okay, like I can,

and even before that, KD, because he's talking, when he talks about the goat, he's talking about his place against LeBron. That's what he, that's, I'm just going to decipher. He doesn't actually say that. he didn't actually say that in this article, but knowing him as long as I've known him, like, his

benchmark is LeBron. That's, that was his idol at a point in time. That's the person that he has had to look up to in terms of, you know, before he got into the league, and now as he's playing in his career is coming to and end. It's interesting. Another quote that I want to, that I want to read is something that actually Katie told me a couple of years ago. And I think this is more of, I think his place, and this more illustrates his place in the, in the conversation as opposed to being the go, I think this is a bit more accurate thing. So I asked, I talked to him in 2022 in Brooklyn. I actually saw Howard on that trip. We had a great, we had a great dinner during that trip in Brooklyn. But I asked him about just his place overall in the conversation. And he goes,

I put it like this. if let's say Michael Jordan and LeBron James had to pick and we're going to play a five on five game, they're picking me. I'm going to be a part of that 10 that's playing that game. That's how I feel. That might be a more accurate representation. Roger, when you hear that quote, what do you think? How do you feel about that? I feel like that's a better representation of where he stands in NBA history than him being the greatest player of all time.

And that's no, that is nothing to put your chin on. That is a bona fide list. That is a bona fide error that a lot of people aren't in. Absolutely. I think that's way more, I think it's way more accurate representation of where he would fall in the overall, greatest of all time debate, right?

Like I said, in a tier, like not two tiers below, one tier below the people that I have in the goat conversation, there sits Kevin Durant. And so when you're talking about taking 10 people, I think he can make a very, very, very strong argument for that. And I get the LeBron thing. And I trust me, I respect the hell out of the, the gut feeling of that. Fuck what you're talking about, man.

I'm, I beat him. I'm better than him. Like, I'm with that. But at some point, you know, the numbers are what they are, right? Even with LeBron, like, even if you outplayed him a couple of times and all of that, like LeBron's, they take 10, 10 finals appearances. Like, I mean, you know, there are things that are separators at the end of And it's unfortunate, right? Because we get into these conversations and because you have to separate

like elite talents and elite resumes, it always feels like you're you're belittling someone else's career or like marginalizing what they were able to accomplish. And that's just not the case. But, you know, we're trying to like separate the most elite from the elite. I mean, it's an incredible like, you know what I mean? So you're not trying to diminish anyone's resume or what they're capable of or who they are as a player. But I mean, something's got to separate, you know, the greatest of all time from those that are just slightly below. This is why the goat discussion is so obnoxious in the first place, right?

Because to advocate for LeBron over MJ or to advocate for M.J. Or to advocate for Kareem over both of them as some, I think, especially older NBA players, older NBA journalists, older NBA fans will do. They'll say, no, it's actually it's Kareem. to advocate for any of those guys means you have to diminish the others. And that sucks because it puts us in a position in these debates to diminish guys who are among the greatest we've ever seen at what they do just for the sake of trying to prove why no, the guy that I like is actually better. That's why I hate the goat discussion anyway. And here I am being part of it.

And it's not the first. It won't be the last time. I get it. It's what we do, right? We got to, we're humans. We got to rank everything. We got to debate everything. It's fine. But that's where these things get fraught because then the three of us are all spending this time saying, no, I don't think Kevin Durant is the goat. And having to apologize in essence for our position or at least established first that we're all huge fans of him as a player as a figure in this league as an all time great. if you're going to draw these lines, if we're going to have pyramids and pantheons and goats, then this is what happens. I think there's another important data point here, though. Logan, you mentioned the two times they go toe-to-to-to-to and Durant best LeBron, except they went toe-to-to-to in the finals once before, and LeBron won the heat over

the thunder when, you know, Durant was still kind of in his relative infancy in this league, although he was already an incredible player at that time, but it was a really young Thunder team. a year after that finals, less than a year after that finals, Kevin Durant has a sit down with Lee Jenkins of Sports Illustrated and says, and I think this quote has probably long been forgotten because this is now almost 11 years ago, hard to believe. This is in 2013. Durant tells Lee Jenkins, quote,

I've been second my whole life. I was the second best player in high school. I was the second pick in the draft. I've been seconded the MVP voting three times. I came in second to the finals. I'm tired of being second. I'm not going to settle for that. I'm done with it.

That's 11 years ago, and that's like multiple accolades and championships and MVP's and everything ago for Kevin Durant. But like I, Logan, to your point about the quote he gave you more recently a couple years ago, it's still that same chip on his shoulder, right? And it is, and it is a lot about LeBron. You know it's interesting. It's about LeBron. It's also like when I hear stuff like that that I don't want to be second place,

and this is what I have to say about that in regards to Durant. And being around him and also just kind of like just seeing how his journey has kind of gone post Golden State. You kind of got, you learned a lot about Kevin. And we'll get to his time in Golden State during his segment. But you learned a lot about Kevin during his time in Golden State about the type of player he is and also the type of person he is. Yeah, on one hand, he'll say, I don't want to be second place. But he defers all the time. He defers on every team he has ever been on in terms of personality traits, right?

When he was in Oklahoma City, he deferred a lot at least from, and it was a power struggle, but he deferred a lot to Westbrook in terms of just personality type. When he went to the Warriors, one of the biggest things was, oh, yeah, I can be, went alongside you guys. And that was a lot of criticism that he got, right? Then when he went to Brooklyn, Howard, you were there a lot. He deferred a lot to Kyrie on a lot of things, which ended up burning him. him. And then he comes to Phoenix and you could see it's, I guess he tries to defer to Devin,

but Devin looks up to him. So it's kind of hard, right? And then you have to, then there's really no alpha there. And that's where you get this troubles, I think, in Phoenix at this moment. So when he says that, it feels like he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth. I think maybe he wants to be a number one type person, but his actions speak otherwise. So I don't know what to say. I don't know what to think and when I hear those types of quotes because I see the action and it's otherwise, Howard. Well, let me just throw this part in too, right? I mentioned early on, like, all right, Kevin Dread has one regular season MVP. That's not completely in his, you know, control, right? We, the media voters decide that, but, you know, we do it based on your accomplishments in a season.

He had a couple of lost seasons, one when he was still in Oklahoma, when he had the three foot surgeries, another after tearing the Achilles and that costs him a season and then it takes time to get back. COVID, Kyrie, all this other stuff, right? So, but the championship's part of it when we're talking about the goat discussion and we just start counting. All right, who's got the most rings? He's got two. He arguably could have had more if he'd stayed with the Warriors. And he chose to come to Brooklyn.

I'll say come to Brooklyn because I'm sitting here in Brooklyn. He chose to come to Brooklyn with Kyrie. He tied his fate to Kyrie. We know how that went. We can talk about if Kevin Durant doesn't have a size 13 foot and the foot on the line and all that stuff against the bucks and all that stuff. We can talk about that. You can talk about Hardin's injuries. I get it.

There's some what-ifs to the Brooklyn time. But they didn't get where they're supposed to go. And then he decides it's time to go again. He forces his way to Phoenix. Kevin Durant made some choices along the way here that arguably kept him from adding more championships and maybe other accolades along the way. And that's part of it too. Michael Jordan played in a different time, of course. A lot of the guys were talking about in the historical discussion played in a time when you didn't leave.

But the Bulls had to completely reformat around Michael and Scotty Pippen. Yes, he always had Pippin, and that really matters a lot in this. but the team that won three titles in the early 90s is not the same team that won three titles in the later 90s. And in today's NBA, a player in that same position might have gone, well, this shit's falling apart. Get me out of here.

Right? Like that could have happened. Now granted, Michael was part of that. He left for a year and I have to go play baseball. But still, if he comes back and the team he comes back to is not suitable to contend for titles, in this era, that superstar might say, I need to go somewhere else.

Roger, when you hear, we talked a little bit about this with Howard just now, but when you, I can't help but think, like, when we talk about the goat discussion in basketball, it's totally different than when we talk about it with football, right? Like, at least in football, it's like, oh, Tom Brady, he's right there. Like, and I feel like everyone seems to be okay with that. Like, okay, he is the one, right? hockey, I'm assuming like Gwen Gretzky or some shit, right? He is the one that's the assumption.

When you think about that sport, you think, why is basketball different in that regard? Why are the general, why do you think that generationally it's always different? It feels like in basketball it is my goat or my generation. Y'all wasn't, my OG is like, or maybe, you know, you was being my OG, Roger. Man, Mike was right. I saw Mike. Mike was the goat. Or, Wilt was the goat.

Why is it all so generational and fragmented as opposed to football? where it seems like, oh, Tom Brady's right there. Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think you do have that in football to some degree. Like, you have people that would tell you, like, for their money, it's Joe Montana or somebody like that. But Tom Brady just, you know, first, I think it's also, you know, you differentiate positions in football in a way that the quarterback winds up

getting a lot of the attention in a way that basketball is just, like, up for any position on the court. Like, there's some of that that goes into it. But from that specific quarterback position, Tom Brady just, I mean, kind of ran away with championships. I mean, forgive me if I'm wrong. I didn't do the research on football. But, like, I don't know who has as many championships as Tom Brady

to be able to boast that. How many teams have as many championships as Tom? Yeah. So, like, now what I would say, though, is, you know, let's say leave someone like Patrick Mahomes. You know, I think we're in a, and because to your point, there's, you know, those championships.

in the NFL, don't just stay with a club the way they do sometimes in the NBA. Like you wind up with a lot of dudes with a little taste and you can stack in basketball when you just have that generational player. Like football's got too many players on a team. There are too many things that have to go right organizationally, you know, and from a team standpoint. But like we're in a day in an age now where if Pat Mahomes keeps stacking, like you're going have the same effect, right? Like, you're going to have, you know, a generation of people who

have been fed Patrick Mahomes since the time they were eight years old, nine years old, and they're going to have a case to make for Pat Mahomes, not unlike, you know, the LeBron fans with the Jordan fans. So I think it's, you know, there's a lot that goes into that. That's a big question. I tried my best to get through it, but, but, you know, positionally, quarterback-centric league, right? Like, we're, to start with. And then he just ran away from people in terms of the championships he was able to win. Yeah.

Last part on the Durant segment is the Warriors, which is like the elephant in the room for his career, right? And I don't even think it's an elephant in the room because of the NBA says it. I think it's more so because it keeps getting brought up. The Warriors keeps getting brought up in his, and his journey by him, mostly, and, you know, by other people. Howard, how do you think that relationship is going to ultimately, like, I guess, come to bear, right? I think that they're overall fine, but I think that, like, I do think when I hear quotes like this,

I do think that that's going to haunt him for a long time is the, is the fact that his Golden State tenure, one, it was great, it was fruitful, but it's always going to be, he's, he feels, is probably always going to be used against him. What is the truth in that when it's all said and done? I mean, it sucks that people are going to hold it against him. And I understand why they do, but I just think they're wrong. I get why people found it distasteful. I get why people look at it a certain way, but I just think they're wrong.

Kevin Durant deserves all the credit in the world for winning those two championships and for winning finals MVP. And I don't want to overstate what I said a few minutes. minutes ago about like if he'd only stayed with the wars like there's no guarantees that they would have stacked up more championships but they might have like who knows relationships might have better question oh how i guess a better question is though because he said the reason why is because he went to the warriors what is his career if he doesn't go to the warriors well yes yes that's that's that's the bigger question yes what is this career if he stays with oklahoma city who was a formidable

and was also like i think that okay c could have won a couple of titles if he doesn't leave Well, that's, and that goes to why people had such distaste revulsion to his decision, right? It wasn't just that he left Oklahoma. It's that Oklahoma was at that time the Warriors' biggest rival. And had just gone toe to toe with them for seven games in the conference finals before the Warriors went to the finals. Like, if he had gone somewhere else, remember, he was entertaining a bunch of different teams at that time. Like, if it's, there's a lot of fun what ifs when it comes to Kevin Grant's decision. Boston. If he goes to Boston, if he goes to Boston, okay, he weakens the warrior's biggest rival in the West, Oklahoma, but he doesn't join a team in Oakland that had won the championship of 2015. If he goes east, now maybe we've got Warriors Celtics facing off in the finals. Who knows? The Celtics have to get through LeBron still, right, during that time. But there's a whole different dynamic that unfolds. And maybe he would have been happy enough there.

As, you know, he's looked at his riding the coattails in when he goes to the Warriors. He would not have been writing anybody's coattails in Boston. And if they win championships with him as their lead, he gets 100% of the credit potentially. No caveats. Boston propaganda, which is, which throws them over the top. Substantial. But, but he would be viewed, you know, even two championships in Boston as the guy who put them over the top would be viewed as differently probably than the two championships with the Warriors, fair or not.

It would be valued differently. But yeah, there's a big what if there. Or if he'd stayed in Oklahoma, as you point out, Logan, look, I don't think he and Russ could have stayed together for much longer. Like that thing had run its course. And just like with the Warriors, we can sit here. I can sit here and say, well, if he'd stayed with the Warriors, maybe they win, you know, three, four, or five.

But maybe things would run their course there too, right? We can't forget all the detentions there and him and Draymond going at each other on the sideline. I don't know how much longer he would have stayed, Howard, real time. Just knowing we know now and just knowing their relationship and no one was actually going on during that last year, don't see it. But I do think to your question, like, we know how these things go. Things soften over time. Years from now when everybody's retired, when Steph's retired, Clay's retired, Draymond's retired, Kevin Durant's retired, whatever, and they're doing like a 10-year reunion or something on the court pre-game before Warriors game in 2030?

Wait, what did they win? 2017. 2027, actually, that's not that far off. Maybe it's a 10-year anniversary of the second one, 2018, 2028. So in 28, four years from now, are they all retired and are they all on the court for a reunion? And are they all hugging each other and already thinking warmly about the. time they had together and forgetting about all the bad stuff. I don't know. Maybe that one's too soon. Maybe it's the 15 or 20 year anniversary of the 2018 title. But I think they're all going to talk

about it, including KD, probably in a much different way once we're down the line. Roger, last question. When you hear the KD rhetoric about the Warriors or someone who played, like, you played in the league. You were out by then. But what does that make you feel as a player when you hear the rhetoric that we as a media establishment kind of put on to, you know, get our ratings up? How do you feel when you hear that comes? I mean, that comes with the territory, man. Like, I mean, it can be frustrating at times. I won't front, but it comes with the territory.

And I've said before we do our best to block it out, I mean, point blank, I would say take your ass out there and try to win a championship. You're going to judge it for Rogers, Phoenix, let's get the sonship. Like, no, but, but, you know, look, I don't begrudge a dude how hard it is to win a damn championship, man. You guys are going to judge me ultimately in the goat debate on whether or not I win them. This chance represents a chance for me to go ahead and do that. And then you're going to kill me when I take the chance to go ahead and do it. Like, I can't win for losing. So, again, I don't have any beef with him.

I don't diminish those championships one bit. Golden State was winning. but he added to that. He was a piece that they did not have. He was something that they could rely on down the stretch of games for easy buckets in an individual capacity that they just did not have a player that could do that to that degree.

And so I don't diminish that in any way, shape, or form. And as far as, look, we get it, man. Like you guys, or now we guys are going to sit up here. It's our job. We're going to have opinions on stuff. but for a dude who was trying to get over the hump and win a championship and knew his legacy was going to be whether or not he won them, found an opportunity to do that, added to the collective in a way that allowed him to keep doing that.

And then to have that diminished because of it, it's like you can't win for losing, so why listen? All right. So is Kevin Durant the goat? Probably not. But is he the goat of giving us 30-minute segments? Absolutely. Take a break. We're going to talk about how teams should treat their players on the way out. Get in on all the NBA buzzer beaters, ankle breakers, and tomahawk jams with Fanduil, America's number one sports book. Right now, new customers can get 150 in bonus bets guaranteed when you place a $5 bet.

If you've been thinking about joining Fanduel, there's no better time to get in on the action. Let's take a look at the games tonight. Bucks Pistons. I'm going to take the under on that one. Surprise, surprise, surprise. Cavs Magic, going to take the over. Spurs, Sixers, going to take the under. Grizzlies, Raptors, I'm going to take vibes. Hornets, Kimberwolves, I'm going to take the over on that. Celtics Mavericks, going to take the under.

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and I am Jade. Before every recording. Producer Kern does 375 push-ups. That's 33,750 push-ups a season. Damn, bro. You good? And we are back, ladies and gentlemen. I was watching some clips from the Udana's Haslam, Jersey retirement. Tonight, Eudonis joins his rightful and earned place on the might. Miami Heats forever team. He will be the sixth number retired. All you'll have to do forever is look up to the rafters to remember and appreciate.

Eudanus, you did it, brother. You did it. And got me to think it, right? First thing is, why do teams do this shit? Why do teams? Why do teams pat themselves with the back? Why do they do it? What's the reasoning?

And then I started getting the answers like, oh, yeah, they do it for this reason and this reason and this reason that we're going to talk about on this on this segment. But I thought about, like, I thought about, I thought about you, Roger, when I was thinking about why do teams do this? And what is the consequence when teams don't celebrate their past and don't do these things? And I thought about, you know, the Phoenix Suns this season who have, I think what Matt Ishbia has done a, you can say what you want about, you know, his moves on the floor and trying to get put a roster together. but I think in terms of celebrating the past and actually bringing people back to Phoenix,

I think he's done a really good job of that. When you think about what Isbia is doing and what a lot of owners do, what do you think, why is that important, what he is doing and by extension other owners, good owners do? And what is the other side of that

when, you know, there's bad ownership and they don't celebrate, you know, the teams of the past? And it is, you know, an erosion of, of that relationship? Well, I mean, look, there are a lot of reasons why it's good to do that. I mean, you know, Sean Marion, for instance,

that's a homegrown product for Phoenix, even though we didn't win a championship there, drafted, had great years, multiple all-stars, you know, just one of the more celebrated players, you know, in Phoenix Sun's history. And I think I talked to him three years ago, two years ago, maybe one of the conversations we had not long after he was on the pod,

And he was kind of estranged from the franchise. Like didn't feel welcome there. Didn't feel like, you know, he was a part of their history in a way that kind of represented what he was able to achieve there. And, you know, you don't want that. You don't want that kind of relationship with former, with former greats in your organization. And then, you know, fans, like the Valley's got Matrix fans all over the place. Like, sure, there's a new generation of fans that are debook people. and whoever else is their guy, Kevin Durant and stuff now.

But like, there's still a bunch of people running around Phoenix reping people like Matrix and Stat and Steve Nash. And so, you know, you want as an owner to appeal to everybody, man, the new fans, the old fans. You want to celebrate those teams that were kind of, you know, some of the better times in an organization. Like, you haven't won a championship yet. So those teams that were just fun and on fire and the league was present every time they played.

Those are celebrated times in your franchise's history. And so to celebrate those teams and those players, I think is really, really important. And, you know, Matt Ishby and company, even with players like myself who would never make a ring of honor or anything like that, like, they're in contact with us in a way that shows they care and that they were, you know, that they want us around. And, you know, like, that's your history, right? Like, it's in a family. You got to know your history. You got to know where you come from.

And so I think that's important even in an organization, even if people can't get back all the time. And, you know, teams that don't do it, I mean, you're always putting on for potential employees and potential free agents and potential, you know, career destinations for these great players. So, you know, teams that don't do it amongst a lot of other things that they leave their fan-based, you know,

thirsting for and not getting an opportunity to see some of these all-time grades come back and have them connected and sit in court side and stuff like that. Like fans love that, but you're also not putting out a great, you're putting on a great show for people who would potentially want to come there. Like if you don't treat your all-time greats, you know, with some level of reverence and celebrating them, at least in some capacity, like, what will they do to me if I come there

and I'm an all-time great, right? So like, there's always that from a franchise perspective in the NBA, right? You're always a possible destination for somebody. I think about a contract that got a lot of criticism about 10, 15 years ago, and that was Kobe Bryant's extension. I know Howard remembers that. When the Lakers gave him, I don't even remember the number, but it was a gargantuan number relative to the cap at that point in time. A lot of criticism that the Lakers got for that. But one of the things that Jeannie said was, or I'm paraphrasing here, was, you know, we

take care of our own. And that's going to help in the long run. And I think it did. Like, I don't know, like, I don't know if LeBron comes to the Lakers. I'm sure he tried to probably finds a way because it was bigger than that. But at least that definitely helped. And what do you think, what do you think of what about that? Raja has a face. Roger, what you think? I'm sorry, because I know it's Howard's question. But let me just say, I don't give a damn what they fucking paid Kobe in his last year. They couldn't pay him enough for what he meant to the Lakers, like over his career.

You literally couldn't, you can't compensate him under the rules in the NBA for what he did for that franchise, period, point blank. So good for them on the back end just saying, hey, man, like we know no one else really

thinks this is a great idea. Because I feel like fan bases want them to be more cutthroat than it actually is warranted. Like, it's way more neurons to just say, hey, yo, Kobe, bounce. Like, it was good. It would kick rocks.

Yeah, like, we're going to get somebody else. It's like the messaging that that would, like, what would the messaging of that send to the rest of the league, Howard? If they, if the Lakers are like, you know what, man, it was cool. You tore you Achilles by. Like, okay. I mean, in a worst case scenario, and we know how Kobe, you know, we know the kind of energy that he would bring to something like this. In a worst case scenario, if you insult him with the offer, it doesn't matter whether you think it's an insult. You doesn't matter, well, Kobe, we've got these salary cap mechanics we've got to navigate and we want to sit.

If Kobe just is looking at you from a cross table going like, I don't give a fuck. This is what I've done for the franchise. This is what you owe me. And I'm underpaid anyway relative to what my value would be in a league with no maxes and no salary cap, which is absolutely a point that he and his representation, Rob Polinka, currently the GM. That's exactly what they would say. That's exactly what anybody in that position would say. LeBron, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, all of them underpaid relative what their actual market value would be in a system with no salary. salary cap and no max contracts. So yeah, in a worst case scenario, Kobe feels insulted, says,

screw you, I'm going to go play for the Clippers. I'm going to go play for Pat Riley in the heat. I'm going to go, like, or if I'm going to be underpaid anyway, I'm going to go take the minimum somewhere, join another team that's ready to win championships and shove it down your throat. And then you flash forward years later when it was time for LeBron to decide where he's going next after his second turn in Cleveland, and he's looking around and he's going with the Lakers, yeah, storied franchise, but, Man, way they did Kobe on the way out. I don't like that. I don't like that.

I think maybe I'm going to go somewhere else. Maybe I'll stay in Cleveland. Who knows? So yes, you have to think of all of those things. I don't think the Lakers were, you know, gaming it out with, oh, some future star, how is it going to look. I think it was more just like they felt the moral obligation to reward Kobe for all he had done. They knew it was going to mess up their cap. They knew it would hamstring them for his final years.

And they did it anyway. And I think it's both a pro and a con to the times we live in now in NBA media and NBA fandom where when I first started covering the league, no one knew shit about the salary cap. And it wasn't a constant discussion. This shit was arcane. And only like Larry Coon, who wrote the original salary cap FAQ, only Larry Coon outside of the NBA. By the way, not even all teams had capologists of their own at that time. So it's over time, everybody, including fans, have become savvier about this stuff. So now we look at everything through the prism of, oh, you've mortgaged too many of your draft

picks. Oh, you've tied up your cap too much. Oh, you've got too much dead cap from the wave and stretch provision that you did with, you know, Josh Smith or whatever. Like, we're almost too educated. And so it's easy also from a fan or media perspective to take this really cold-blooded approach and say you can't give, say, Kobe Bryant that contract because it's what it's going to do to your cap. And forgetting about all the human elements of this, also there's some

PR elements of it. And also back to the whole honoring your players. Like, that is both good messaging, good practice, just good shows of loyalty and appreciation. It's also good PR. Fans love that stuff. Fans love when the sons hold their ring of honor ceremonies or bring back guys. I remember when Donnie Walsh came to run the Knicks after, you know, during, you know, what had been a disastrous era up to that point. Donnie Walsh was the first one to decide we got to start bringing back some of the Nix alums. And I think in no small part because it's just the way Donnie was wired, but partially because

the NICs were in a really bad time. And it's nice to remind your fans of better times sometimes. But also, yeah, yeah, it's just good practice to. keep your, you know, your greatest players of all time from your franchise, keep them involved. Bring them back every year or every five years for an anniversary of some sort. And fans love that stuff too. It's fun. Like whether your team's winning or losing, it's not, you know, we all love some good

nostalgia sometimes. All right. Let's get to, let's get to some questions. It's time. We're introducing a new segment here on ruins and celebration of our edition. of Howard motherfucking Beck we are going to

now do I'm sure there's going to be sound effects there's going to be all these things in the coming months when this comes about

at first we just have Mr. Kerm who is going to be giving us our motherfucking mailback questions every Monday we'll get a sponsor one time

but as of now it's sponsored by the streets hello Kerm you are here what's going on buddy what's good guys let's do this shit man let's do it

so first question we got from Chris Fox. He says, what's good, fellas? I know the Lakers won, you know, we have, we don't talk about the Lakers enough here. So I felt like we needed to get something in there, you know? He says, what's good, fellas? I know the Lakers won the bubble ring. But overall, it seems like the Lakers have fumbled LeBron's time in L.A. on the court.

After going to four straight finals in Cleveland, do we think LeBron made a mistake leaving the calves based on how dedicated they were to spending money and putting a great team around him? Also, should the Cavs go the other way with Mitchell and try to add a big piece to be a player in the East? Go ahead, Ron. That's a lot. That's a lot. You see, you're very enthusiastic about that one. No, you read that completely wrong.

Not enthusiastic about that. No, I don't know. Look, so I have no real insight on this other than just having read tea leaves and watched body language. and I don't, after the way LeBron was treated the first time he left Cleveland, I don't think he was ever retiring a cat. It's just my personal opinion. I think LeBron was going back because he felt like he owed something to that city and that, in that town.

And, you know, once he accomplished that, I don't really think he was going to stay there forever. Just me, though. I mean, he might go back. Who the hell knows? The other part of that was what should they do now with Donovan Mitchell? essentially yes yeah look I mean anytime you have

you know somebody of that level you know it opens up possibilities and when you have possibilities you have to do whatever you can do you can't just keep tread and water so you know when you're excited about a young team and that team is you know only young for a certain amount of time

and then there are expectations and so you have to continue to build and continue to find pieces that will help him get over the hump And so, you know, the answer to that, I mean, I don't have their whole cap situation and all that. But, yeah, like, you have to be adding pieces to try to help get Donovan over the hub or try to help, you know, that franchise get over to hump. I'll answer the parts that Raja didn't. Because I, no, no, I just, no, I mean, Raja handled the Cleveland part well. Let me just address the idea, the first part of his question where it was, have the Lakers fumbled this to an extent, yes.

should he have stayed in Cleveland? No. And all due respect to all members of that Cavs front office at that time. But the team that LeBron left, the second best player, was probably Kevin Love, who was like 29 at the time. J.R. Smith, George Hill, Rodney Hood, Tristan Thompson, Larry, Annance, Jr., Jeff Green, Jordan Clarkson. Anti-Zizich.

No, LeBron was not going to win more championships in Cleveland, most likely. And Anthony Davis was not going to force his way to Cleveland to play with LeBron James because nobody, I'm sorry, Cleveland forces their way to Cleveland. So that part of it, I'm sorry, ludicrous premise. LeBron going to L.A. meant that Anthony Davis would eventually force his way to L.A. And the two of them together can win or contend for titles. But yeah, like, they had a team that was really well built around them. The year they won the championship in the bubble, they had shooters and versatile two-way players.

three and D guys, and then they got rid of them all. And then they got Russell Westbrook. And then they had to offload Russell Westbrook. And they've been trying to fix it ever since. Tears are coming down Kerm's eyes right now. He's just shaking his head so bad. Let's move on. We're doing a little too much talking about this.

Let's move on. That's enough. Come on, guys. That's enough. No, so, no, but I want to add to what Howard's saying, though, because the question posed is, did the Lakers fumble the bag? you got to give LeBron some of that credit for fucking up too because who was one of the big voices on trying to get Russell Westbrook?

It was LeBron James. Right or wrong. They did win a championship so we can never like when we say fumble the bag. Like it's fair to criticize a lot of the stuff they've done and even LeBron's role in that. But it's also fair to say, hey, by the way, they won a championship and winning championships even a single one is really, really hard. Could they be doing a better job in all the years that they didn't win a championship of putting better play?

around him? Yeah, no question. Did LeBron play a role in that? Sure, but I'll say what I've said many times on this particular subject. Front office is responsible in the end. You don't have to listen to your stars. I listen to Shaq scream and yell about all kinds of stuff for the seven years I covered him. They didn't give Shaq every player he ever wanted. Sometimes you've got to tell your players, even your superstars, no. That's on the front office. What about the second the second part of the question is the calves, the calves, should they be doing something to put pieces alongside Donovan Mitchell?

The answer is yes, but based on everything we've heard, it's like it has nothing, he wants to leave. Like he wants to go somewhere. He wants to probably the Knicks, probably, it seems like if you think that it's hard,

would you have a good idea that the guy that you were trying to build around wants to leave? It's hard to build around that. It's hard to build around that. around that even when like LeBron is a good example of that so I don't know they're kind of going to catch 22 in this right because they do bring right bro yeah no you you're you're right right but I mean you got to take the swing yeah you're not you don't hit the home runs by not taking the swing like you're guaranteeing yourself that there's no home run to be hit right you take

the swing and make it difficult for him to leave hey look what we just did look what we just got you you're walking out now do you mean like when they should have traded the draft pick from the Nets to get LeBron more help in his final season? Take the swing. I think he was going back. That one, that one, the right, I'm telling you the right was on the wall on that one. I'm just saying. There was no swing big enough, though.

There was no swing. And maybe that's the case. Maybe that is the case. I don't know. I'm not there. I don't talk to Kobe. All right. What's the next question, Karen?

Next question we got is from Colton Cortez. He says, what's up, fellas? Longtime fan of the show. figured I'd slip into the motherfucking Monday's motherfucking mailbag I'm sorry I read this before but I forgot he said that

with recent additions to New York and Indiana and the Cavs on a six game win streak is there a world where the motherfucking magic make a six seat and motherfucking miss the play in or are they getting left in the rear view

how do they vault upwards in this motherfucking middle tier I'm sorry. Give me a second. Give me a second. And this motherfucking middle tier of East teams, they currently have the easiest remaining schedule in the NBA.

Being from North Carolina, I'll spare you from any Hornet's questions because of self-care. Cheers, CCC. He just said some kind of record. That's awesome. Even Logan hasn't said motherfucking that many times in an episode of this podcast.

That was awesome. I think Magic have a shot. I liked watching it and play. I mean, the couple of times that I've watched them play. Howard, how many times you seen the Magic play? Do you think that they have a shot? I love Paolo. He's great.

I think that they're on the rise. I don't know if this is the year for them, but I think they have a shot. They got out to such a hot start, and they do have two, like, legit stars in Palo and Wagner. And they got to such a hot start. They were, like, hovering in that top four or five range for so long. I think maybe people bought a little too hard into them. and say, okay, they're here, they've arrived. Like, they still need to finish out that roster.

They, I mean, they really do need an upgrade at point guard. They're one of those teams. They're still on vibes right now. They're still on vibes. And they're young. And it's like, it's fine. Don't complicate it with this. Don't complicate it with all this.

Trust me. Because once you push the button, once you push the button on being like really, really good, that's when the real pressure comes. Don't do it right now. Please. They don't need to. I'm with that. Yes.

Just let them live. Just let them live. No one's getting past the Celtics. bucks and sixers anyway in the east. Yeah, for sure. Because if they do, they're getting swept. Like, if the magic do make it to the motherfucking past the motherfucking mid-tier, they're getting swept.

It's not happening. It is what it is. All right. What's the last question? All right. Last question is from Nigel. He's from Australia. So I'm going to try my best here. Long time for long time fan from Australia.

Just wondering, has Roger got a sock sponsorship deal for his kids yet. Nigel. Wow. I really wanted to hear Kerms say motherfucking in an Australian accent I was hoping for that.

Mother fucking Mondays. I'm trying, man. I'm trying. That's like my second time ever I've tried an Australian accent. No, Nigel, listen, man. If NIL comes to Florida anytime soon, that's the first place

we're targeting, man. A sock, a company. We have a thing now, like my middle, my youngest son can fit into my older boy socks. So like, we have all out sock wars. Like, I will be down the hall and hear commotion. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? It only raises to that level if people are beefing on a video game or something. And I'll run in and someone has caught the other one like snaking socks out of his drollos of my socks.

I'm like, bro, what in the hell? And no respect for the socks. I know I've done this before. Like no respect for the socks. You think you take care of the socks because there's such like, there's appear to be such a limited amount of socks. But nope, we'll wear them outside. We'll run through the like driveway in them.

We'll tear holes in them. We don't give a shit. Dad just keeps buying socks. I guess I just answered by what I need to do is stop buying damn socks is what I need to do. I think you need to go to Costco is what you need to do. Yeah, real talk. Well, we got, Dick's sporting goods has, has decent socks. So like we go there, we buy a couple packs.

I hand them out and I'll be damned. I mean, two weeks later, people are fighting over fucking socks. Do you get the gold toes or no? Because you should probably get the gold toes. The gold toes are the old reliable. They're not the Nike shits, but they last. Get the gold toes. Stop going to dicks.

Yeah, maybe. I don't wear the gold toes on. Amazon, you get them like a 24 pack for fucking $15 or some shit, bro. It's great. You're trying to get his kids bullied, man. You got to wear a Nike sauce. What you mean? You're not going to wear a little.

Raj's not getting fucking bully. They're fucking bullied. Also, I'm going to stick up for my guy, right? They don't even wear the Nike. They don't want the Nike socks. I'm telling you, but they want, there are no Nike socks. The request is Dick's sporting good socks. Roger, why, why have you been disrespected for a long time when it comes to sponsorships and

fucking check marks? Do we have another rant on the horizon? How are you feeling on the check marks? I mean, we've got, Twitter's gotten muskified. I don't think you're getting your, I don't think you're going to get your checkmark. Come around. I'm not worried about it. I think it's over.

Over there. I've been checked. I've been checkmark on Instagram. Me. Don't play me like that. Stop playing with me, boy. What do you have to say

in the disrespect, though? The overall disrespect that you have been exhibited over the last few years in terms of sponsorships and fucking check marks. Tumbling. Tumbling. But I never rolled like that. Like those who know me know I was never like that anyway. So it ain't,

it ain't no thing for me. Roger. Okay. Yes, Roger, you are fumbled. But let's not act like we don't have archival audio footage of you fucking railing against the system because you didn't get a check mark. Well, because I could prove that I was myself. So like in that space,

I mean, if there is a, if there is a process that one would go through to prove that they are themselves and then get a checkmark. If I've done that, I don't understand why I don't get the fucking checkmark. Put your personal information on the line. Like real talk,

man, I'm handing out. Like, I'm taking pictures of driver's licenses and shit. And you guys are turning me down. Shame on you. my son clowns me now though dea clowns me because he got more he's got more followers on on instagram than me now so like i get clown i'm not even but he actually trying though i see

what he's doing he's actually trying to get them you're not trying you're not doing like you're not not it's not it's worth a lot of it's worth not a lot of bread to him but it's worth it's worth real dollars like i don't think he even knows that necessarily like i'm sure he does somewhere it's not his main focus necessarily but like them little dudes you know and and and and and and ladies that are out there about to get into college sports. That represents real money. Yeah. All right.

And that represents another episode of Motherfucking Mondays. That is Roger Bell. That is Howard Beck. I am Logan Murdoch. Make sure you check us out on Mondays and Thursdays. And make sure every Monday we're doing this mailbag, tap into Real Ones Mailbag at gmail.com. We'll see you guys on Thursday. Tap in eye, all the shits.

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