The Ringer NBA Show - Does the NBA Have a Problem—and If So, What’s the Fix? Plus, a Cup Quarterfinals Primer. | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos discuss the narrative that the NBA has a problem, whether they agree with that premise, and how to fix what problems the league might have. Then they briefly preview the quarterfinals of the NBA Cup (1:07:28). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the mismatch. And huge welcome as well to my new co-host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week every Tuesday and Friday right here on the mismatch to break down everything that's happening in the league. Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe and hit us with those five-star ratings on Spotify or wherever you get your. your podcast. And also don't forget to follow us on social media. That's at Ringer NBA. And check out the full mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history

of podcasting right on the Ringer NBA YouTube channel. The group chat, I am Justin Barrier. And joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Waz, together in the studio couple L.A. Bros. Are you guys going to hit the Grove after this one? It's required, I think. Not going to hit the grove, but you're going to miss out on some After work drinks. Very happy hour style. Yeah, that you're missing out on. A little NBA crew shit.

I would have come up with something to get out of. Probably so. I'm not privy to give the negotiations as far as what time those drinks were supposed to start. Let's just say Waz was pushing it earlier and earlier in the day. Oh, I would have expected the opposite. He was like, let me just double up on being in the office already. Yeah, I think so I don't have to drive anywhere.

Okay. Let's just, in my defense, let's just put it like this. Y'all heard the phrase is five o'clock somewhere. Yeah. The time is after five o'clock. So I'm in the clear, guys. Okay. You were edging it pretty close over there, but I'll give you the minute for the dad on this one.

Yes, sir. I actually respect that. If you're already downtown, you're not going to then go out of downtown and then come back to downtown. That's the true L.A. experience right there. Well, you still have time, Justin. Do you want to fly down, meet this this evening? Like, I think you have a window here. It's got like, what, a two-hour flight?

I can make that. And then just tell you I'm going to show up and then never show up. I mean, that would also be in character. But if you wanted to, you could do this pod, pack a bag, and be here. If you really loved us like that. I'm here for it. Not by coastal, but like buy on the same coast. That's unicoastal.

Unicostle. Still one coast. The student has become the teacher. There you go. Thanks to everyone out there for shouting us out on your Spotify Raps. got a couple announcements from that or a couple pings in the old DMs from that. If we were on your list, you got a cool little video for me just being like, thanks. And it was totally not pre-rehearsed or uncomfortable at all.

So hopefully you guys enjoyed that one. I did not enjoy recording it. So I hope you enjoyed it. Also, hope we were enjoying the new ringer.com. I don't know if you checked out the new website. It looks very nice and shiny. Shouts to everyone on the back end at the company who works. on that and the new group chat page.

That's the one. If you guys check this out, the landing page is fire. It got like the whole like text bubble, but you got our faces in it, which is kind of neat. Although I did notice Justin Varian never submitted a headshot, ladies and gentlemen,

the most handsomest of the group chatters decided I'm going to go no face on, on the new launch. Crazy. I couldn't believe that. Yeah, what's up with that? I just assumed that they would carry over the old one because I didn't read the instructions.

And so I did ping our guy Craig Gaines the other day. And I got one up there. I have to say the photos are more smoldering than in the previous iteration of the website. Like, we all look fucking hot. Hot as company in sports media. There's really no doubt about it. But the group chat hub specifically are reactions in the in pod photos to the takes that are being delivered. I would love to reverse engineer what episodes of those came from.

Yeah. There are recent ones I could tell. I'm wearing a hoodie that I just bought in one of them. I have to say, I wish we got final cut on the choices of the photos because your boy looks like he could have used a nap. That's just all of us evergreen. That's true. One thing I do like about the website in general is that the writers always send in their own bios. So in other sites, they would come up with something that were like everyone's kind of sound the same. Like Rob's is pretty conventional. It's like, oh, I cover NBA pop culture, used to work at Sports Illustrated, et cetera. Mine's kind of

similar. I really appreciated Waz's, which I have to assume you wrote yourself, which is, and I quote, New York City native now residing in Los Angeles. That's all you need to know about me. They're like, that's all you need to know. New York cat. That's it. That's all y'all need to know. What I love about that bio is Waz is not committing himself to any kind of work whatsoever. Hey, man. Hey, I'm flexible. I don't know what to tell you people. I'm flexible. Never learned. I'm pin you down. No. But yeah, the site is very cool looking.

Go play around with it. Go check out the group chat page. I think there's like a show notes version that we could maybe toggle with a little bit as we go along and we can really kind of blow that out. So really excited for that. But also excited for this podcast. We're going to talk a little bit about the cup quarterfinals, which are on deck. What is it? Early next week, I believe.

And then we got the semifinals and finals in Vegas. your boys, aka me, Rob Waz, going to Vegas all together. That's right. So we'll be hanging out there

during, I believe, the semi-finals or our Monday Pod will recap for weekends in Vegas. That's right. That's what it should be called.

If you were there for the NBA Cup Final Four and see us out in the world, say hello. If you're there for apparently a massive rodeo bananza that's happening in Las Vegas, also come say hello

and tip your cowboy hat to us. We would appreciate it. I can't wait to hear the difference in weekends between Rob and I and Waz where it's like Rob and I'd be like, oh, we went to a 6 p.m. dinner and it was delightful. It was very scrumptious and Walsh's like... I'll be

at the Garf Brooks concert. Don't worry. I'll have highlights for you guys. I feel like the difference is... I mean, I'm like, I'm not turning it down. Waz will be at the dinner with us. It's just that he has a whole day that happens after the dinner. That's usually the difference in the schedules. My night ends at dinner.

Waz's starts completely. Hey, man. Hey, man. It's not untrue. Let's go. But, you know, I'll make for a colorful pod. So we'll do that next week. No, no, the week after next.

So one week of pods and then we'll do do that. So Cup quarterfinal stock later in this pod. First, I want to talk big picture. We don't typically do this, but we usually have a pretty set format, more of an organized outline. But over the past couple weeks, couple months, just hearing a lot of consternation about the NBA, just a lot of people griping about certain problems with the league. There's always like every week or two, some news report about ratings being down or mixed or we don't actually know how to read the ratings. They're actually XYZ.

But it's just like this constant drum beat. And I've kind of tabled it for a time in part because I don't know how to get. get my arms around it, but I actually think this is probably a good topic for a podcast so that we can go in many different directions. Why don't we start here? Do you guys think that the NBA even has a problem? And if they do, what is it? I do think the NBA has a problem, which is mostly that everyone is under the impression that the NBA has a problem. I think it's one of those things where there's a lot of searching for what bothers you personally and extrapolating that into, oh, this is the big issue facing the NBA today because it bothers me on an individual level.

How much of those things really matter? I don't know. I do think the NBA has a problem in the sense that, for example, TV has a problem, right? Linear television has a problem. So NBA viewership is clearly down. That's inarguable in a lot of cases. TV viewership is way down in a lot of cases. There are some exceptions to that. The NFL continues to be an absolute juggernaut. And I want to talk more about the NFL kind of piece of this later. But overall, it feels like The NBA is settling into maybe a different kind of place in the entertainment, time-filling landscape of your life just because of the way we consume TV being so different and the way we consume social media being so different.

But I fail to see the big capital P problem with what the NBA product is right now. Yeah, I think the ratings thing is important, kind of. They just signed a massive deal. So, like, I don't think this is going to actually matter for real until this deal is actually up, which means they have eight years. I think the next deal goes through the 35-36 season. Okay. So that means they have

nine years, because they start negotiating this thing like two years out. So they have nine years just, quote-unquote, fix the ratings problem, which to me means like if they're smart and they care, they can do it. I'm not somebody who believes that the public at large has

completely fallen out of love with the NBA or a great basketball. because like, you know, something like the Olympics, like the semis and the finals did incredible numbers. When people feel like there's a basketball game with freaking stakes, they're going to sit down and watch because it's fun. It's amazing. The freaking Serbia game was amazing. The game against France was amazing. People sat down and watched it because they will watch NBA players with stakes.

I think the problem with the NBA as a TV product is that it exists as in, you know, I don't want to, um, take all the credit for this, but it exists as an inventory product. The NBA has a lot of inventory, whereas the NFL is just, you know, 21 events, major events every single year. And the NBA is just like, yeah, we got a lot of stuff to give to you, you know? And how do you make that inventory, that large library of inventory, feel more pressing? Again, y'all know it's been a freaking hobby horse of mine. The freaking schedule is too damn long.

It's just not going to happen, though. It's not going to happen, but I think that would be the easiest way to fix this. And I bet you regular season games would garner more interest. But I think that's what we're talking about here. The NBA's ratings in comparison to the freaking NFL in college football, which are absolute juggernauts, and why that is. Yeah, and I think that divide you guys are alluding to. is actually the key distinction to talk about here because I think the money is saying one thing

that we want inventory, we want more, we just want to fill dates because not a lot of people tune in for anything, but except for sports, except for live sports. And if they do tune in, it's not live. And so sports matter a lot in this current economy of television, whether that's on streaming or just like terrestrial cable. But everyone you talk to, casual fans, hardcore fans, fans, us, like a guy, my neighbor down the street will say the same thing, that they actually want fewer games, that there are too many games, they just do not feel important enough. There are not enough stakes. I do think one thing that's interesting is that, like, we're old enough to remember a world,

an NBA before LeBron James went to Miami. And I think that's an important distinction because we almost come from a world where the NBA was more like this, lacked like a certain. status, like celebrity status important in the culture, it was, if not second in terms of sports league. It might have even been third at times behind baseball because baseball was much more prominent, I think, when we were growing up. Yeah. And so I hear a lot of people talk, like, complaining about, oh, highlights are ruining how we digest the league, you know, the league fits sort of stuff. Like, that's like, it's warping us to think that like basketball is much about

what happens off the court is on the court, the transactional stuff that's become huge in the NBA. To be honest, I almost wonder if the general interest in basketball, the sport, has remained pretty consistent to a varying degree, but all of that stuff has come on top of it to distract us from the fact that like the interest in the game itself is pretty similar. And so if anything, it feels like that extra stuff, the social media driven stuff, is where this outsized importance came from. but now that's dissipating, we're kind of returning back to me. Does that make sense at all? I think it does make sense.

I also think it's one of those things where to your point about maybe the NBA being a similarly popular sports product in and of itself relative to that era. When we talk about ratings, we talk about numbers, we talk about who's tuning into the NBA. I don't feel like the NBA has a cachet problem. It is still the defining second major sport in America if you want to lump all of football together. And so, yeah, the ratings are going to ebb and flow. They are down, again, across the board. but the reason a lot of these networks

are still wanting to be in business with the NBA is because they want to be one of the networks that broadcast NBA games. They want the appeal and to be able to say that and to be have that to be something you can hang your hat on. And in that way, the fact that people still want to be in the NBA world tells me this is still a product

of some importance. How people are consuming and accessing that world is just totally different than it was 10 years ago. And if that's a problem to you, it's probably because your work or your interests are tied very specific. specifically to the way it used to be versus the way it is now. And we're as guilty of that as anything.

Like our jobs have changed, right? Like the way we cover the league has changed dramatically in the time that we've been doing this. I just don't always see change as being a problem in and of itself. I think we're all trying to adapt. We're all trying to figure out how to reach people who are interested in basketball. Because there are people who are interested in basketball. And there are people interested specifically in the version of it that the NBA is selling.

Yeah. And we'll get into some of this. but again, I think it's important to sort of bring our audience behind the curtain a little bit. The reason why there's a lot of this chatter in the media is because the people in our industry for the most part are a bunch of neurotic,

fucking insecure cats. Buzz us? We would never. And so there's a way in which this gets covered in that what's not being said by a lot of the people that's covering it's like if the NBA is losing interest in the public,

that means my own job is losing interest. Like my footing. My Blue Sky account is draining followers. Is losing interest. And so, but that's true though, like people going to Blue Sky

is directly affecting Twitter, like your Twitter following. If I have built a brand in association with Twitter, if you have, If you're going elsewhere, I built a certain brand, that's for sure. That is disrupting what I've already built. I am less important.

I think that's a crucial fact. 100%. So if less people are watching the NBA, that means less people are interested in my work. And so I think the alarm is a little bit disproportionate to actual problems. That's all I'll say about that without like, you know, dissing it. I don't want to dis anybody or anything. But I think that's where a lot of it stems from, the chatter. Let's tie these two ideas together because I think Justin's right.

There is a generation of NBA fandom that rose out of the post decision. LeBron heat teams and everything that came after, the rise of these super teams, the Steph, LeBron finals, like collisions. There's a generation of NBA fans who that is the version of the league that they know. In the same way that if you grew up with the Jordan NBA, anything that doesn't look like it is a farce to you. There is a generation for whom if the NBA is not mad, mega, popular all the time in a star-driven way, then it's not my NBA. If it doesn't look like and feel like that NBA, it's not mine. And so I think what we're dealing with is maybe the biggest like influx of NBA fans

post, certainly post-jordan, maybe post like Bird Magic, all coming to the same kind of period at once and looking around and saying, there's been a massive change in the way that basketball is played, in the way the game is marketed, in the way the game is broadcast and shown to me in the way I consume it. And I don't like that. And I think that's an issue, but it's not necessarily one to, like, throw up your arms and be really upset about. Yeah. And it's different for us because obviously I came of age in the Jordan.

The second Jordan three Pete is when I really came of age as a hoops fanatic, basically, from 96 to 98. And so obviously, as a kid, I could even remember, like, how important it felt like, you know, both of those jazz series were, right? Like everybody I knew was watching the finals and doing that. But also, I lived through the damn spurs and Pistons finals. And that was not great. And people were not juiced about that. Like, I lived through that.

And I remember, like, that clearly did not feel like when Mike and them was in the finals. And, like, as to reiterate what Rob said, just so people can understand my own thing with this. LeBron comes into the league in 2003. It's a major story that I'm following very closely, you know, because he's a high school hooper at the time, and I'm a high school hooper myself. So I'm like, I feel very connected to this story, right? But, you know, so I'm watching the story. But, like, at the time, like, I'm just as big, if I'm probably just as big an NBA, just as big of college football, not as big a baseball, but, like, damn close, right? A baseball observer, whatever.

Fast forward eight years, the decision happens, and those other things just slowly just peel off. I'm just locked into the freaking NBA. And what's happening with this story, with LeBron and the heat and the rest of the league and getting booed in freaking Utah, Milwaukee for some reason. And like, this story just felt like... Well, for a... I think we know the reason. Well, sure.

But this story felt like it had so much juice and wattage around it. Right? And so, yeah, like, no, it's not that anymore. Steph and LeBron in 2016, I think we're still chasing that high. If you were really into that, sure, nothing is compared to that since that. I grant you that as just as a casual fan. Like, that game seven in 2016, like, I don't even, it felt bigger than sports. I mean, it's one of the most important games in NBA history. So, yeah, we're going to be chasing that for a while.

We're still chasing that high. But in terms of the long arc of following the NBA, man, like these periods in between they happen. And I think we actually are in between one. And that's kind of why I always kind of blanche a little bit when people are like the transactional nature of some of the coverage has almost like ruined discourse in a way because I look back to the LeBron going to the heat issue. And like that is what spurred so much interest to begin with in the league. Like it was a player movement decision. Ben Cruz just walked by. Sorry to interrupt.

Just. Oh, why? It was LeBron like kind of cutting against history and going his own different path and making a free agent decision. And then after as a result of that, a lot of players forcing trades and making transactions that brought us to this point. I think one thing we should probably talk about is this idea that like the M. MBA is so driven by transactions, the major newsbreakers doing that because I think a lot of people are upset that that maybe like takes away from the game. I think we should also talk about the

fact that this season feels different than in past seasons because Woge isn't there. And I think it brings me back to this whole idea about like the noise. That seems to be a lot of people's major issues or at least that's what they're deciding is the issue with the way the game is going now, I almost feel like the lack of noise is just as telling as the noise previously, where it's like the fact that there isn't this Woj Shams thing happening all the time, and it's just kind of like a detente. Like, we're not emphasizing the game more. There's just a lack of anything there.

And so if anything, I actually feel like that was luring people in because they were so into rubbernecking sort of like the reporter and reporter stuff. and so we're left with nothing. And so, like, I don't know. It just feels like we're, we're, like, focusing on the wrong things. Does that make sense at all? It does make sense. I think a lot of this stuff, it's not as if that other content that emphasizes other parts of, you know,

the on court action and breaking it down on an X and O level or the stories of individual players or the narratives that are driving the season. All of that stuff is still happening. It's all still out there. It's there if you can find. It's there on the ringer.com. it's there on the athletic, if they're on ESPN's website

in terms of the writing that's there and sometimes on the television product. Like those, that stuff is all there. And so I think there was a time where I agree with you, the, the noisiness of the league

has risen and risen and risen until now where I think both because of the way that coverage is changing slightly, but also because the transaction nature, like the transactional nature of the league has been limited a lot by the financial kind of restrictions

that have been put up around teams. everything is kind of shifting under our feet. I just think overall the problem is everything is noisier than it was 10 years ago and 20 years ago and everything feels worse than it did 10 years and 20 years ago. And so guess what? The NBA does too. I feel like I'm running the risk here of being like the Democratic operative who's pointing at like the nationalized crime statistics.

The answer is there's a problem if you feel there is a problem. Like if you are feeling tuned out on the NBA or like you don't want to lock into the games, that is an issue for you and your fandom and how you interact with the sport. And we hear from people all the time who listen to this podcast who basically stopped watching NBA basketball

or really just consume little bits and pieces here and there but want to listen to podcasts or want to read about it. And I think that's a version of fandom that is distinctly modern and new. And it may have started decades ago with like reading the sports section in the morning before work and like the little AP write-up that's in there.

But now you can be a full-fledged NBA fan without watching the game. And for the league, that could actually be a problem. Yeah, and I think this conversation is tougher for me, too, because the only NBA fans that I'm in contact with on a regular basis are Knicks and Lakers fans who happen to be two of the most psychotic fan bases in the league. Like, these people, they eat, breathe this stuff all day every single day. Like, nothing is weighing for these folks. And I'm talking about the Lakers are 12 and 10.

It doesn't matter. Like, their fans are completely locked in, completely paying attention to every single aspect. And Nick fans are the same, right? And I think the people who, you know, like sort of the Joe six-back kind of guy who's just going to fly by night and sort of parachute in to a storyline, something that's cool as Steph Curry in the threes in 2015 and 16 and 14. And LeBron after the decision, like, sure, like, we probably not getting that guy. at the moment, but I'm somebody, and maybe I'm, you know, basically an NBA optimist this way. I always believe that there people, if they tune in, are going to find something compelling about Shea Gilgis and Anthony Edwards and Jason Tatum and all of these guys.

And, like, there's something compelling about all of these guys. This is about getting people to realize it all over again. That's all. I think, I think Rob bringing up the Democratic nature, I think is interesting because I remember a couple weeks ago when we were doing our takes for potluck. I was like, oh, there's one I want to let fly here, but I don't want to get into it because it's a much tougher discussion and longwind discussion. It is, I think, in part that people online, the most full-throated critics of the way that the discourse is gone reminds me of the playbook from the Democrats and the 2024 presidential election. where it's like we believe in something strongly that we think everyone should, but we're missing the normal, like being able to talk to normal people.

We need to get in some diners in middle America. Yeah. There's a little too much like we're educating you and you need to get onto our level as opposed to meeting them in the middle and finding common ground and being able to speak to the common person. And like, it's funny because I think Waz is right where it's like we're probably way too into this to actually be typical like subjects

like the people who are actually making these decisions of whether or not to tune in to not because we're just we're going to tune in regardless if the league was in a dire state and it was just three pointers every single shot we would still be on this podcast talking about it hopefully if they would pay for it. But I think about

my interest in like TV and movies for instance or even in football and like I don't listen to typical NFL podcast every week but if the Giants like went out and traded for a quarterback, I'm going to tune into that. And I think we've gotten to this place in the NBA where it's like, we almost want to kill the fun aspects because it doesn't adhere to like our high standards of the way that people should talk about the game. Like it has to be very sophisticated like X&L's

analysis, which I love. I love learning more about the game. I genuinely like learning about the things that I'm interested in. But it comes with a much more like an ascot to the discord. It can be both stylish and fun. I hope so. I hope that's what we're doing on this podcast. But like, I want to have fun with the things I choose to do on my free time. Right.

And I don't think we should be constantly hammering people for being interested in dunks and highlights and stuff. Like, that's just as much a part of the game as anything else. And frankly, I find the transactions just as much a part of that. I recognize that like it can go a little too far in some instances. But like this is all just like a poor. into the thing that we're all talking about.

I don't think we should poo-poo anybody's choices about how they want to spend their free time. Totally. I do think there's a weird phenomenon going on across the board. As you said, not just in the NBA, but across culture, across sports where it's like, if you are a fan of something, you are expected, not just on us having media jobs level, but in your group chats, in the barbershop,

among your friends at work. Like, if you are a Giants fan and you can't name the starting offensive line. Who the fuck are you? Like, what are you doing? There is a level of, like, expertise that is not just suggested, but now feels required in a lot of modern life

in order to participate in some of, like, the discourse around those things. And that's where I agree. Like, the nature of casual fandom, I think, has been a little bit eroded or at least challenged by the wealth of information that's out there, by the degree to which people are digging in hard

into whatever their individual passions are. And I think it makes some sports, it's inaccessible. I think it makes some interest, like really hard to crack into without feeling like you're the idiot in the room who can't name the 13th guy on the roster. Like, that is a ridiculous standard to hold people to. But I feel like in a lot of ways, that's kind of what modern fandom and specifically like Stan culture, once you get into that level of obsession, is sort of what we're talking about. Far be it for me as a ringer employee to disparage Stan culture. I would never do such a thing. However, um,

To be honest with you guys, man, I don't think most people who would tune into the NBA give a damn about, you know, just like true shooting percentage. Like, they just don't care. And that's like one of the most, like, basic of this stuff. They just don't care. I just, I can just distinctly remember, you know, having an ESPN insider account in, like, 2008. And, like, being in my barbershop and hearing these cats talk about, like, Kobe's, like, rings or whatever and you know me silently like doing the arthur meme and gritting my teeler

you don't even know with brad p.r you know like i remember those feelings but the truth of the matter is like this this type of fandom that we're describing that's on blue sky and twitter like people don't follow the game that way they just don't and never will or even like you know when i'm listening to our podcast about the the NFL who obviously our guys are just as locked in, dialed in as anybody. Like, when I talk to people about football, they don't talk about football the way our guys are talking about it, right? You know, these people are talking about their fantasy teams

and their freaking parlays and, you know, stuff like that. So, like, I just don't buy this idea that fans in general have become too dorky about the NBA and just not enjoying John Morant's no-look passes. I think people are enjoying that. But it's just, again, you know, we're just going to get, we just need to get it to where more people are tuning in and locking into that stuff. Here's a question I have about this stuff. As we're considering the state of the league and specifically the state of an 82 game regular season, which is overlong, I think we can all agree, which probably won't change for a variety of financial considerations. Is the NBA still a league pass sport?

Like, we are coming out of an era where fans would, you know, maybe latch on to a player and have interests that range across. the league are like could we be getting back into an era where it's less I keep up with the NBA and more I'm going to lock in on my team and I'm going to keep up with that like is following the NBA at large still a thing that's reasonable for people to do look that's another ratings um conversation and people might not like this I think if the NBA was really serious about this ratings thing the first thing they would do is ban league pass get it out of here um literally only people who work in the league um or people who have to do it for a living like, you know, media members, all right, cool, we'll give you guys lead pass accounts,

ban that and crack down on them illegal streams. Because these young people, boy, they do not believe in paying for sports. They do not believe in it. They're like, listen, it's, and I was talking to somebody who's kind of in this field of things. It's sort of like how we grew up with Napster. This idea that we would go out and pay for music. Like, it was like, nah, screw that. I know how to get this thing online for free.

I'm not buying a CD. I'm not paying for music. That's how a lot of these younger cats are with the streaming and stuff like that. And I really do think that would be a very, like, at first I was definitely like, come on, man. It can't be like a sizable amount of people watching illegal streams. But trust me, there are. And that's something that they could do. And, yeah, I think League Pass should get the hell out of here.

If you want to watch NBA, you watch it on TNT and the designated games at T&T, NBA, NBC, whoever tells you to watch, straight up. You want a gatekeeper Nicole Yokic. That's right. Making an event. in Denver can watch Yoki. Well, even that is dicey sometimes in Denver. That's how it is for the NFL if you don't have Sunday ticket. Like, if you

don't have Sunday ticket, you cannot watch every single Colts game if you live in New York. You know, like you just can't do it. It's not happening for you. You might get, you know, if you got the red zone, you get to watch every other drive every time they get to the, you know, the end zone, but you don't get to watch

Colts games when you live in New York. You have to be in the freaking an exorbitant amount for, you know, Sunday ticket, right? Unless you're expensing it. What I'm hearing is, Boz wants the common man to have to pay more money to watch NBA basketball.

No, we just got to treat the product as special. That's all. That's all. Something that's always kind of existed, even pre-Lebron, where it doesn't feel like the NBA is localized in the way that football definitely is, and baseball certainly is,

where you're literally just a fan of your baseball team. It almost feels like it might be, tied to the number of games played because with baseball, you're so invested that you're only going to have time to watch your team every night because they play every night. And football is the opposite where it's like there is so few that like you can base your week around that one game a week where you just watch that. I also wonder if it's like low like regional too. Go ahead. That's kind of what I mean though. Like we've been treating the NBA as if it should be following the NFL model of you can follow the entire league. And there's been a wave of fandom that's

followed into that. But maybe it is more of a baseball model ultimately. Like for a lot of people consuming the sport, I think I think it makes more sense if there's going to be 82 games for it to live that way. Well, I also think that's interesting because we are on the verge of expansion. This seems almost, if not likely, it's almost like basically going to happen with Seattle and Vegas being the most likely destinations. On the one hand, I think the league is talented enough in order to feed two other teams. Like we talk all the time about depth. Like a lot of these guys could just be starting for for a different team. On the other hand, it adds

two more teams in order to foul. And I think you guys just referenced the heyday of recent NBA basketball being not only LeBron and the heat going up against the spurs, but also Warriors versus Cavs being kind of like the pinnacle of everything.

And there's this constant clash where it's like all of the owners want parity because they want to be able to spend as little as possible to compete on the level of teams that can lure in superstars with the big markets. But on the other hand, the thing that drives the most interest in the league are these titans, these like these franchises that are almost dynastic levels like the Warriors

were going toe to toe with LeBron James, the biggest star in the sport. And so they almost work against each other where it almost feels like we should have fewer better teams than expand. But if anything, they're going to go more teams, which means more ground to cover. and I don't know how to reconcile the two. The expansion thing, I think, is completely fine in the sense that, like, you know, people are like, oh, these are two teams that we've got to get people to follow.

Like, come on, give me a break. Who's following Charlotte that don't live in Charlotte? Like, nobody. Me. I am doing it. Nobody is actually thinking about these teams. Like, hopefully one day Charlotte becomes the kind of team that could threaten the Eastern Conference finals, right?

And people will start caring and paying attention to it. But, like, I don't see the issue. of bringing two new fan bases into the league. And then, yeah, for a while, they'll just be ancillary figures in the overall story of what's happening in the league. But, like, I don't see the problem with that. And, you know, the thing about this whole parody thing,

and I think I've talked about it on the pot. I've certainly talked about it in other places. That's, like, one of my biggest issues with Adam Silver is his knack for, for getting the bag. His knack for, all right, we're going to start in season tour.

What the hell is that? Next year we got the Emirates paying for it. Right? Like, he just got us a new bag. Right? Like, and he is great at that. He is great at communicating the value of this league to the partners.

He is amazing at that. At the same time, I don't think he has great basketball instincts, quote unquote, soul of the game instincts. It's just this idea that, well, football has this perceived parody, and football is really, you know, successful. We should have parity.

You know, it's like there's no consideration for what gets people turned on to the league, as if it's not these very great teams, that people don't get turned on by, you know, the 80s Celtics and Lakers and the 90s Bulls and the Spurs and, you know, the heat. and all of these other things. Like, Kobe and Shaq. Like, that's what people get turned on to.

It is these juggernauts. And, yeah, we don't want people to become juggernauts in the sense that we feel like it's impossible for them to lose. Like, when people watch the Chiefs, people don't think it's impossible for them to lose.

In fact, they come pretty damn close to losing all the time, right? And what's cool is that they somehow managed to pull it out in this heart of the champion crap. I think Adam, I think he just has a hard time identifying, man, like these core basketball principles

and what real people that end up loving and getting the most enjoyment out of the game. I think it's harder for him to recognize those things than it is for him to see a business opportunity and be like, yeah, we're going to turn in-season tournament into a commercial for the Emirates. Soccer is super successful, so let's just be like soccer. Yes. It doesn't always apply one-to-one. It doesn't, and it kind of looped into this. as we're talking about what's driving those market dynamics,

I am struck by the fact that the league is more talented than it's ever been, as you said, Justin, deeper than it's ever been. Like, it is in a state where, for basketball reasons, the NBA can support two more teams. No problem. No question. What there is as a lack of, like, generation defining stars that are coming up. At this point in the previous era, we already had not just LeBron on the rise,

but there was such a strong LeBron and Kobe as counterpoint. points, right, as this generational changing, very different player types. You could very easily fall into like, oh, I love the way LeBron is such a past first creator. Oh, I love the technique and the mastery that Kobe shows from a skill level on a game to game basis. They were marketed together, right? They were marketed opposite each other. And who is that guy now? Like, the closest thing we have to that now is Anthony Edwards grows up adoring Kevin Durant and shows him up in a playoff series and talk shit.

And, like, that's a cool moment, but it's not a cool wave. And so who is the young star, despite how incredible Luca Donchich is, despite how incredible Sheikilges Alexander's, it's about an incredible Nicola Yokic or Janus or like any number of these guys are, who is that guy who is galvanizing the fan base of an entire sport? I think it's such a tall order. And if anything, the fact that anyone has ever been able to do this is a credit to them more so than it is to blame somebody else.

Like the fact that LeBron and Steph in particular have carried the NBA as long as they have, is a singular accomplishment. But that's what the league needs to thrive. It needs those sorts of players. And I look around the league, I see amazing talent, and I don't see that guy. Yeah, and the NBA has always been driven by its superstars.

The boom of the NBA was Larry in Magic and Davis Stern noticing that and selling that. And now it got pretty dicey because he was also selling a bunch of other stuff underneath all of that. But it kind of is the undergirding for everything that works. all the heydays of the NBA have fallen in line with one or multiple superstar individuals being at the front of it. Obviously, Jordan, but then LeBron and Steph, as you're saying, I look around and, like, I don't know who that guy is in part because most of those guys are coming from abroad.

And I think Americans have a tough time accepting their go-to superstars as being from outside of the country. And the league, on one hand, like, I don't know if Luca has the personality to do that. this and what we're talking about typically is celebrity and personality. But on the other hand, like, I think Wembe has a lot of those check marks that you'd want and the league clearly has noticed it. And Wembe has also clearly noticed it. And it seems like they're aligned in trying to make him that. But I also don't think this is the type of thing that you can necessarily force. And I also think part of this is like how much the players themselves, the superstars we put into this category,

are willing to participate in. I do think like the fact that Nicola Yokic is, far and away the best NBA player of the past five years, looks like he might be on route to another MVP, but he doesn't really contribute to superstardom in the way that Wembe, for instances, as LeBron took on the mantle and was like, I'm going to be this guy, I'm the face of the league. Let me be in all these different Nike commercials,

yada, yada, yada. Yokoj is like, fuck off. I want to play with my horses. I don't think that's helping the case, but I also think it's not helping the case that a lot of these guys are doing this themselves on their social media rather than like, really playing ball with media in the league and everything and like really embracing the media machine that fed not only Jordan but also LeBron and Steph.

Like there's like kind of a rubric to this that has worked throughout time with celebrity. And it just doesn't feel like the players are up for it. And it also doesn't feel like the way we consume media is similar enough to how we led to these four quadrant guys who were able to get the moms involved, get the young guys involved, get your girlfriend on the couch who want to be interested in who this guy is dated involved. And so I don't know how you really land the plane with the right guy, because it seems like the calculus to get the right guy is different than ever before. If I can empathize with the players a little bit on that, as far as why they wouldn't want

to play ball with the responsibilities of not just superstardom, but kind of league-defining superstardom, the lift and the weight and the stresses that come with that are just not comparable to what they were 20 years ago, are just like Michael Jordan's version of celebrity is worldwide and ubiquitous and obviously hugely culturally significant. He didn't have to deal with the internet. He didn't have to deal with the constant grabs of accessibility

with the increasing demands of a media culture that is just flat out obsessed, right? Like there is a level of interest and dedication in celebrity culture, obviously, in all kinds of previous tabloid eras across all sorts of media. it's different now. And when you have people reaching out to you in the ways that guys in the league

have reaching and grabbing at them now, I just think it's different. And I don't blame them for getting to the point where they're finally at the peak of their profession. They're 27, 28, maybe 30 years old. And they're like, you know what? I just don't want to do that stuff anymore. I am tired.

I'm exhausted. I have come up in a league where guys are bitching to me about their parlayes on a daily basis. And I am tired of hearing about it. and I don't want to participate in this version of that anymore. Like, who could blame them for that? Yeah, I take a different tact on that. I don't think that they need to be ubiquitous,

but I do think the players could be better at selling the product in terms of just stuff like, yeah, I want to kill the guy on the other team. Sure. I hate them. I hate the freaking, you know, if you're a Nick, I hate the Celtics. I want to crush them. I want to kill them. I want, like, does, like, sell it honestly.

I think they could be doing that a lot. lot better. You know, instead of being like, no, it's just another game in January. No, nobody wants to hear that, bro. Tell them like, no, no, I really care. I'm going to try to kill these guys the next time. Like, that's the kind of thing that I think they could be doing way better at in terms of selling the product and get, like, fans don't want to hear that, oh, tomorrow's another

day. Yeah. We get it. Like, that's a good work-life balance. And I encourage that to actually feel that way. But that's not how you sell this product, bro. Like, that's not how you get people interested in what you're doing. And I think, look, and again, if we did structure this like we did back in the days, again, before League Pass, like the reason why the whole national TV game was a thing.

And it's not anymore because these games, they're all national TV games damn near. When you think about League Pass and the Internet accessibility and all of that, like guys understood. When I play in Salt Lake City, Utah, nobody gets to watch me play otherwise, except for my small local market. This is the only time I'm going to get to be on NBC. And you know what? I got to show the world what time it is about what I'm doing. I think that stuff matters, man.

In terms of somebody like Luca, who I think genuinely, like, man, it was like three straight years. He would get up for every single Devin Booker game. He wanted to freaking kill this dude every time he played them. And if you watch enough Maverie's games on League Pass, you know he don't treat all his games like that, you know? And I think there's like these guys are human beings, like they're going to respond to what they think is important. So I think there's there's that, them making it see, like, first of all, treating it as important. And two, like, yeah, man, like, y'all need to play the game.

Like, I don't want to turn on Netflix and watch y'all playing with y'all sons and being good dads. All right. I want to turn on Netflix and y'all talking about like, yo, I'm dedicated to this, man. I'll die for this. On some football shit, to be real with you. Yeah, what about this idea?

As opposed to giving more money for making it to the NBA Cup finals or like winning the Cup finals, you actually get more money for winning a national TV game. You get 50 grand if your team is on national TV because you're such a celebrity

and your team is so good that they want that. And you get $100,000 if your team wins. I don't know how the Players Association would negotiate that, but I would love something like that for sure. And again, I just do think it is to go back to the inventory problem. I just do think it's just fundamentally so different in a world before ESPN got NBA rights. And it was just NBC on Sundays and Saturdays. and T&T a couple times during the week.

Literally, T&T would do a double header two times during this. So that's four total NBA games. And then NBC would do a double header on the week. Like literally 10 NBA games the entire freaking week are available to the public, except for your one local team. So again, that's just a different dynamic to how players are going to be like, oh shit, I'm on NBC today. Yeah, it's about to be on.

I mean, we were saying many versions of the same thing, which we want more of these games. who feel like they matter. And I think there's a bunch of different ways to accomplish that, one of which, to go back to the expansion point, in a perfect world, expansion is a trade-off piece.

You are adding two teams. There's a huge influx of money for the existing owners because of that. And as a result, we scale down to 65 games, right? Consolidate the schedule. You play within your new, like, little four-team division. Maybe you play those teams one extra time. You play every other team the same number of times.

And as a result, every game means a little bit. bit more. The other problem, this is something we were talking about before the pot, I want to call our Gen Z correspondent, our producer Isaiah Blakely, to help talk about this. The NBA has lost a lot of its exclusive windows. The days

that used to be NBA days on the calendar are just not that anymore. No, they've lost I mean, we lost Christmas bad this year, like... Terribly. Not only, the NFL I think took Christmas for the first time last year maybe, and they're taking almost the whole week. I think

there's Christmas Eve. I think there's a day after Christmas. It's like absurd. And they got Beyonce reform. Like it's old. 10 people are going to watch the NBA and we're half the group. Like it's cooked. Can we keep MLK Day? No. Do we have that still? I'd have to check the schedule, but I want to say no. Is it Martin Luther King on a Monday? It is on a Monday. Which is bare minimum Monday night football, whatever week. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's it's cooked. And with the college football playoff, I think, we'll be going. Like, it's, it's not good. And I was talking about this with our Guy Jomey, like, they don't even add any mystique to Christmas anymore. Like, bring back the jerseys, make it a little more special.

Like, you guys were talking about when you'd make things matter more. Christmas Day jerseys, like, yeah, do we kind of hate them at the time? But, like, looking back, like, I don't know, at least it was fun. Like, it was something to talk about. It added some kind of juice. Yeah, I don't know. It's not good. It's one of the bigger problems.

I think you have the dilution of that with the city edition jerseys, too, where there's so, there's so much stuff seeing. I look, nobody likes them. But, like, when there isn't one, defining look for a team, then when you do deviate from it, it doesn't matter anymore. And so now, yeah, there's a new court. Everyone hates it. You know, they throw in the fourth different city edition jersey in four years.

It's a watered down formula. Everybody hates it. If you have a basic look and a basic feel and then once a year, you make it feel special, guess what? It's going to feel special. Brough, the not wearing home whites is the thing that sticks him to my freaking crawl. This is our oldest man take that. It's true.

It's true. Yeah, the color on color, that's awesome. I love that. I hate that. And it's just, and it's just like,

there's something that communicates to the audience, like the team in the white is at home. You're watching the home. Like, that's the home team. That's why the crowd is not black

and white TVs anymore. That's why you had color versus whites because they can only pick up one color. No. It used to be a proper country. You need to know who's at home and who's not.

But yeah, it's just those little things. And again, I don't think, If you fix this stuff tomorrow, everything would be perfect about the NBA. I literally just think the public just needs to become more familiar with the guys who are going to take ownership of the league. Yeah. The public needs to become as familiar as they are with Steph and LeBron and K.D.

With these newer, younger guys. And I think that's important. And, you know, again, just related to Luca and, yes, I do wish he was from Kentucky. like that would just solve so many of our fucking problems. Do you? Yes, I do. I wish he was, you know, instead of vaping and hooking, he was don't chewing tobacco. You know, like, I wish he was packing a dipper. We do not support chewing tobacco on this podcast.

I'm just saying in lieu of hookah don't chitch, he'd be, you know what I mean? Chulchonchin. Yeah, chukadonchich. But if he was from Kentucky, he would be the linebacker on the Carolina Panthers right now. That's the problem. We do tend to voice those guys, especially in the South, toward football. And to circle back to one of Rob's original issues here, I do think the NBA is two to football's one. But the gap between one and two is now a casual.

It's huge. It's definitely huge. And again, I think it's getting people to, you know, to know these guys, to understand the stakes of their careers. And, you know, we got to get, somebody's got to get through to these guys. that, and I've made this complaint, like, I get it. I know that David Stern, in his infinite wisdom, was, like, very nervous about the sort of early hip hopification of the NBA. And Alan Iverson and his freaking do-rag and his did his cornrows and his tattoos.

And it's like, Jesus Christ, we're trying to serve a corporate, family-friendly product, whatever. I just want to pause right now. I have no idea what direction this take is going to go. And I just want to say I'm enjoying the roller coaster. No, listen. So, and I got, and the younger me was like, this is kind of bullshit and it's, you know, it's bordering on racist and why do we have to, you know, cowtow to the Lilly White audience, whatever.

I got all of that as a younger person. And I was like kind of annoyed with David Stern. However, like, the guy that was making those decisions, if he could see our crop of young NBA stars now, it's actually the complete opposite. These people have been corporatized, focus-grouped, consultant class to death. They never do or say anything interesting. They're not humans.

They're freaking drones in public. And I think that's a problem. You know, I think, look, all of us thought the shit that John Morant was doing was knuckle-headed. But before that, I think there was a reason why he was by far the most popular young players because people felt connected to him.

This guy felt like a human. He felt like a star. And it's because guess what? John Morant, Nike and them didn't get their hooks into him when he was 15 years old and telling him, yo, you're a brand. You're a company unto yourself. You need to comport yourself this way, blah, blah, blah.

That shit is bad for the product, period. And I think the less and less we do that, I think the better it's going to be. Of course, the stupid shit John Moran did. Nobody condones it. But I think there's a reason why he penetrated in a way that nobody was penetrating that way. Like, dude, like he was genuinely compelling to a young group of NBA watchers for a reason, man. Like, this guy got discovered his freshman year of college, you know?

Like, he went to some little school. He wasn't part of the basketball sort of grassroots. machine. And I think that shows in how he handles his basketball stardom. Like, this guy is more Alan Iveson. He is more Gary Payton, you know, to name a few guys from yesteryear who just weren't these basketball fucking finished products, right? Like, they didn't just come out of a goddamn deck the way that some of these guys do. And look, I love Evan Mobley. Nobody knows what his voice sounds like. Do you think in 20 years, Evan Mobley's going to have a 20-year career?

Do you think this guy's going to say or do something interesting his entire career? No fucking shot. I don't think that's a branded down, sanded down issue. I think Evan Mowley is just a quiet guy. I think that's a different kind of personality type. But to your point was, like, Aunt Edwards is a similar story. Oh, love it. Maybe what we're learning is the way to be a great pro is to go through those sorts of pipelines

and treat your career like a brand or come from a European school of early basketball training. The way to be a great star is not that. It is to come up a different sort of pipeline without so many hands on you at every stage of your personal and basketball development. And at this point, I don't know how that gets better. If anything, it's getting progressively worse because if you're a young person, you're online criminally at like age 10 at the latest. And so you're going to be programmed even earlier than you were before. But to Wads's point, I think he's 100% right. if you talk to any white guy my age, the two things they love the most are Alan Iverson

and Wu-Tang Clan. Because there is something appealing about that to just like suburban kids, the realness, but also like the rawness that you weren't getting from your typical life. Yeah. And you're right. I just don't see where we're getting that now. Even Wembe, who I think we think might have a lot of the traits that brands in the league seeks after does feel sanded.

down to the point where I don't even know who Wembe is. You know? Like he's a good ambassador and I think he's a good kid. He's an awesome player. But I don't know who he is yet. And that's a problem. This is the most compelling to me of any of the problems we've illuminated so far. Like the overall death of authenticity, especially in public life, is a problem when you're

trying to market the people in that league. And Wembe, I think Wembe is actually a kind of interesting guy. He is bold enough to say that Attack of the Clones is his favorite Star Wars. movie. So, like, he's out there on some limbs. I think, like, I watched the interview he did with JJ. I was like, yo, this guy is a pretty freaking savvy young person and was

like way more candid than he needed to be and, like, way more, like, I don't know, like, thinking about, like, his existence in a way that I was like, damn, like at 19 to be, like, to understand yourself

in, like, in terms of your position in the world. just as a human being is like kind of interesting. But, you know, and again, just to, and we could get off of this, but like understand that the league, the people who comprise it, more and more suburban, more and more affluent backgrounds. There's like a country clubification, you know, basically like tennis and golf, man, where like a lot of the people that are coming into the league,

you know, children of ex-players, rich kids, man. suburban kids. And I think that's part of the story that's happening here. When you talk about the professionalization, corporatization of the league, I don't know how you reverse that. I don't know if the league even sees that as a problem

because they love corporate automaton's, you know, people that show up on time to the goddamn luncheon with Pepsi. But, like, you know, I don't know how we even fix that going forward. I like how that's the unreasonable standard for being professional. Like, honestly,

minutes late to the Zoom call, Rob. Hey, look, I'm not, again, I'm not an NBA player time, all right? There are levels to this stuff. No, but Waz is right. Skill training, the professionalization of even like the corner three costs money, right? And so a lot of kids are voiced into that. I think that certain people are sponsored at an early age, but you're right. Like, it costs a lot to be skilled right now as opposed to someone playing a more free

but an efficient style of play. Like Alan Iverson was the most efficient player in the league, but he was the most fun, the most charismatic, the most exhilarating to watch. And I think like metting that out is leading to perhaps more crisp offense,

but not necessarily more interesting offense. I won't go to the point where it's like, I think three pointers are the problem, but there is a sameness, I think, to every team at this point in how they play that didn't exist previously. See, I don't, I still don't, I still don't totally agree with that.

I know that the three-point hand-wringing has continued, has proliferated, especially on social media. Hey, man, listen to the next episode of In My Feelings, me and Ben Goliver just complain away about three-point shooting. Let me not complain away about three-point shooting. I do think it's out of whack for some individual guys. Like, there are some stars who should be shooting a little bit less. There's some systems overall that are maybe a little bit out of balance.

But when you look at the best offenses in the league, they are not the highest three-point shooting teams by volume in the league. It is not a cheat code to offense. It is not a prerequisite to offense. I think what people get stuck in is they are watching the pockets of teams that play similarly, right? Like they're watching a lot of, for example, Boston and some of the Boston Acolytes. But even Oklahoma City is not a super high volume three-point shooting team, even though they play like Boston. Teams like Dallas, teams like Memphis, teams like Orlando, Houston, these are not super high volume three-point shooting teams. And so if you're feeling like the NBA is in one place right now.

I would say that the problem is mostly that you're in one lane of a league that has many different lanes. Like, spend a little more time with Denver and you're not going to feel that way. You will be begging the nuggets to take more threes. So I think there is still a pretty good diversity of play. And there's certainly a diversity of play in terms of how those threes are created. I will say, though, a lot of the best teams are running like motion, Princeton offense, type of stuff.

which is hilarious to me specifically because I played in high school for a guy named Tim Leary, Irish guy. And what he would say to us in practice and when he's talking to us about basketball, he's like, do not watch the NBA. You guys aren't good enough to replicate that. Like that was his whole thing. Like, you're not good enough to isolate and just kill your man one-on-one. Like, get that out of your brain. His whole thing was motion and movement and screening. and replacing and cutting.

And like, that was his whole thing. He was like, that's how you're going to beat as a less talented team. That's how you're going to beat a more talented team than you. You guys don't have it in you to just destroy people on sheer talent. Sorry, guys. So get that NBA style out of your head. And when I watch the Warriors or I watch the Sacramento Kings or I watch any number of these guys play like these dudes are running Leary's offense, man.

Like, it is like screening, replacing the cutting and, you know, like, it is this sort of more egalitarian style of play, which, by the way, I was told classically that this is what fans want to see. This is what the white man wants to see. He wants to see more fluid and motion and that the white man wants to see a Hoosier style of basketball. The NBA style has never been more Hoosiers than it is right now, dude. And I got to say me personally, I do really like watching that shit.

I do. Yeah. I mean, it goes hand to hand with the depth stuff too. If teams are by and large more talented across the board, is there more guys getting involved? Is there more incentive for a coach to drop more things using different players? We were talking about this the other day about how guys like John Moran, the guy that we were just talking about, Steph Curry, et cetera, were being more in the conductor role than anything

that they've seen before just because there's more to get in. involved. Absolutely. There is still the flip side of this where, frankly, I think watching Luca Donchage play is one of my least favorite experiences in the NBA these days. I think he is a unique talent and I do appreciate. When it's not a big game, is tough. It's just, I also stand by my take that I think I reeled off last year where I don't

think players should be allowed to talk to the referees because he talks to the referees more than his teammates sometimes. Just not. What should happen if they try to talk? Like they fall through a trap door? What happens? I think the ref should be in like a Popemobile bubble of some form that you cannot talk to. Because what actually is good about having a discourse with the ref,

I think you would say like, oh, there's a human element to where there's like a give and take, yada, yada. I don't think there should be a given take. I think it should be just like hardline. This is the rule. This is what we're doing and nothing else. You shouldn't be able to influence the outcome. This falls into like the we should know less about each other umbrella. Like, we should not know a single referee's name.

They should live clouded in secrecy. Listen, you guys don't want to know what I'm actually doing up here in Portland. We really don't. We really don't. But I do think you hit on a really important point as like the style of play in depth are concerned that the version of the NBA that a lot of people are craving and missing was a version of the NBA where the fourth and fifth guy on your team could not dribble. And so, yeah, that's why they were standing in the corner and it wasn't a driving kick offense.

It was just a kick offense. the fact that everyone can do everything now opens up lots of possibilities it also like aligns a lot of wings and a lot of role players to attack in similar kinds of ways just because of the natural momentum of the game like the ball is going to start with a star

and flow outwards it's still doing that it's just when it flows outwards there's more kind of action and more places for it to go and ultimately I think that leaves people feeling kind of dizzied by by the sort of the sort of cyclical play that's really popular right now. Yeah, in a lot of ways, I think the 3 and D player is a result of the game's progression. But I think the narrowness of that role is a signal of some things that aren't necessarily good as a

fan because that guy is in such a defined role where you're attacking in similar ways and you're resigned to just being a certain type of player because your offensive crater was doing so much. The fact that more and more of these 3D players are doing more and being asked to be more connectors and actually put the ball on the floor and be able to pass out of it a little bit, I think is actually a good sign of things. And I think that sort of player model is one that we should actually be looking at is almost like the canary and Nicole mine about where the game is headed. Jalen Johnson is a good sign for the league.

Like the fact that a player that athletic is playing that way, that's what we want. Have you seen Tumani Kamara pass? Oh my God. It had been too long since we heard a single blazer mentioned in this podcast. That's right. All right. This is a good discussion. Our existential crisis is fully concluded at this point.

Maybe we'll visit this in like a couple months, see how things have changed. Because we'll keep getting more and more of this. So I'm interested in this discussion as long as we can actually find what the discussion is. But why don't we take a quick break so we could look through some of this Cup quarterfinal action? Sometimes in basketball, 30 points could be worth more than 30 points. and now you get a 30% profit boost from The Ringer with Fanduels 30 on 30 during Friday's NBA action. That's right. The Ringer is teaming up with America's number one sports book to give you a 30% profit boost

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Restrictions apply, including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook. Fanduu.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. All right. We have our pairings in the NBA Cup quarterfinals. We've made it.

We've got Thunder Mavericks in the West, Rockets, Warriors, also in the West, and then in the East, bucks versus magic, Knicks versus Hawks. I have to say it just is like a kind of bookend to our previous discussion about the state of the NBA and all like play style and all that other stuff. I'm still pretty tepid on the group play version of the cup.

I still don't even know what's happening most of the time. I think the point differential thing is actually one of the worst things that they've ever done in the league just because it leads to a lot of poor sportsmanship and it just doesn't apply to basketball in the same way it does soccer. Get out of here. You're a big sportsmanship. Yeah, you lost that out of here. This is the NBA.

I don't want to hear about sportsmanship. The game. The unwritten... Don't you dare flip a bat over here. No, but see, this is different than flipping bats because that's more promoting something that's fun. This is actually just promoting beatdowns for the sake of beatdowns.

And actually, as we talk about guys who are like getting injured more because of the point. That's Darwinism, my guy. I mean, you can only do so much, you know, especially when Moni Kumar is out there playing a cuff game. It just promotes something that I don't think is like, typical for an NBA game. It just, it feels out of sorts, but that's a whole other issue.

I will say quarterfinal play, this is where I get into it, because there's real stakes to this. It just reflects more of the, like, college style one and done thing that I think that we all like about that. And so I'm very excited about this. I'm also very excited about this field. Well, is there any one of these matchups, one of these four matchups, you're like, oh, that's my shit. I don't, I wouldn't say anyone in particular. It's funny. When the drawing came out, I was like, I'm, I have an interest in.

all eight of these teams. And so, like, the young magic, like, I'm watching them play yesterday. And these dudes, again, just play so hard and is so athletic. They play with so much force. It's, like, a unique NBA watching experience. So I'm interested in that contrast with the old-ass bucks, right? Like, I'm interested in that. The Knicks and the Hawks, like, the way the Hawks have been playing recently,

where these dudes seem to be like, it's almost like they're disgusting. covering their powers in real time. Like, we're watching these young guys be like, oh, shit, like, I could scale a building right now. Like, it's crazy to watch that. And I think the Knicks are even coming into their own in such a... Like, I'm interested in all of these matchups, and I do want to say about the cup,

because I know there's been so much out there. I was generally bullish on the cup as an idea. Just as, like, ways to goose actual competition, like getting people to play super hard in December and November. And what is it? Like, I swear to God, y'all, they wouldn't ordinarily be doing it. Yeah. Like, it's just a fact.

They wouldn't ordinarily be doing it. And then, you know, last year, I was at the first cup semifinals in Vegas, and I was actually sitting next to Bill and, like, freaking Tiree's Halliburton, R-I-P. He made a big-ass three. And he's, like, pointing at his watch. and he's yelling at the freaking box and he's like, and people in the arena are going nuts. I'm like, okay, this is actually legitimate.

This is legitimately a great thing that the NBA has put together. So I'm now fully NBA Cup-pilled. And I get it, you know, part of that is the privilege of being at the game and blah, I get that. But like, I'm a true believer in this and I'm super excited for this year's version of it.

Well, I wasn't at it. the game. I was also super into it. I think single elimination out rounds are a very easy sell. I agree with you, Justin, like group play is kind of an imperfect system. It's hard to get super invested in that format when it's just kind of staggered throughout the NBA season, even though those games have been really competitive. And I think the NBA Cup preliminary games have been pretty fun. I can't say I've been 100% locked in on, oh my God, this is the clinching scenario that the magic need to get this wildcard spot. Like, that's not a particular interest to me, but give me the field, and I'm interested.

Show me these teams. Let me start wrapping my head around who's going to play who, and I'm locked in. And one of the things that strikes me looking at this field, all of the best defensive teams in the league are represented here. For all of the hand-wringing, we just did about the three-point era in the NBA, these are defensive juggernauts, like by and large, who are in this group, give or take an occasional nix in this field.

So I think the diversity is good. I think the young talent is good. I think like last year, you have a nice balance of sort of established stars versus up-and-coming stars, which is a dream for the NBA, I'm pretty into this stuff. Like, as our previous conversation, like our long conversation would tell you, like, we are looking for things to lock in on and care about. And even though this structure is a little artificial, even though it requires some dangling of dollar bills over players' heads at times, it does feel like I think that we can care about and that the players care about. And when

those things are aligned, that's when the NBA product really sings. Yeah, this field is fun. It has the same sort of mix as last year where there are young upstart teams that are really looking to cement the fact that they've arrived, like the Pacers were that last year. Unfortunately, didn't carry over to this season. But the Rockets very much in that vein. The Hawks also, surprisingly, out of nowhere, very much in that vein. And I would say for that reason, the Knicks-Hawks matchup is probably my favorite on the board. In part also because these are the two weirdest teams in the past like 10 games or so,

where I don't know if you guys have looked at the Knicks' offensive numbers, just in the past 10 games in which they're 8 and 2. They're absolutely scintillating. My eyebrows are singed just from looking at their offensive efficiency. They have something going. Carl Anthony Towns all of a sudden is America's favorite big man, where he's doing that weird, like, what the fuck is this guy doing? Yeah, for now.

It's definitely going to change, but I think we should appreciate it while it's going. And then the Hawks, I think we've said this many times throughout this season. They're just a fun watch and they're in this weird state where they're becoming a much better team. But Trey Young is both being an excellent conductor, but an awful shooter. Like his offensive numbers, his shooting percentage are terrible. He was 0 for 9 the other night, which is like completely even like the worst of Trey Young. Trey Young shooting numbers have been bad in the past, especially from three.

But like now they're just like, we're talking Mendoza line out there. And yet the team is better for it because he's such a good playmaker in pass. It's just like, to me, that's number one on my board. But like you said, I think these are all pretty fascinating matchups in their own right. And we have a bona fide, like, playoff rematch here, too, in Mavs Thunder. That's one that I'm looking forward to watching. And I think what's exciting about this field as we kind of lay it out is almost no matter who wins and advances, the matchups are going to be really fun.

Like, I'm really open to basically any permutation of these eight teams getting to the final. Yeah, I mean, the league, the league probably doesn't want the magic. doesn't want the magic and the hawks to end up in Las Vegas, but we do. I fucking do. Yeah, magic hawks, rockets, thunder.

Let's go. That sounds great. Look, if that's the semifinal that we get on site, oh my God. I love the rockets. Tarisen just tried to fight someone in Sacramento the other night.

Yes. What did you try to fight? I was a fan. Oh, a fan. Yeah. I think there was a lot of stuff going on in that game. I think both Adoka and someone else got tossed.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Set of malice at the palace, what we would have called at? It grew high at the bean. It's a little wordy. It's a little mouthy, but I think we can send it to the edit. Grinding my gears at the Golden One Center. Okay. All right.

We didn't even mention, as we were doing our tears and we talked about the Sacramento Kings, we didn't even mention that Jay Crowder is back in the NBA. Congratulations to Jay Crowder. He's perfect for this format, though. Who do you guys have as your favorites? So if we were to predict when the finals come down to it, who do you guys got? I think whoever comes out of Mavs and OKC, honestly, because I just really do think in like big games, high stakes type of environments. Luca does come alive in ways where it's just like, oh, he's like trying on defense.

Oh, he's like getting into guys. Oh, he's like grabbing boards. Okay. Yeah, so I think those two teams for me are the favorites. I think the Rockets are going to win. Wow. I think they're going to take this very seriously. They have to.

I think they're going to move up two tiers in Waz's rankings over the course of this Cup tournament. This is kind of tailor-made for a team like them that fancies themselves as real contenders that has something to prove that has a chance to go against pretty top-flight competition, especially on the western side of the bracket, and then even if they get to the finals,

it's kind of a dream scenario if you're a team. like the Rockets. I would say my favorite to win it all are actually the Mavericks, just because I don't know if you guys have checked in lately, but they haven't lost a game or they've lost one game in the past three weeks. And that game was an OT loss to the heat. They're pretty good. Most of those were without Luca Donchist and now he's working his way back in.

They should have lost that game the other night against Memphis, which Memphis, let's be honest, probably, punted that away, like smart in particular, which is making just like the most ridiculous plays toward the end there. And I was like, classic smart. He's back. Flashbacks. Yeah. We're waiting for Merk's Marks to come back and he's definitely back there. But even Spencer didn't when he's playing. I just think they're like the classic. They're they're peeking at the right moment in order to win this thing. And as we flash back to last year, wasn't actually like the fun upstart team that won. It was LeBron James, the veteran just put in his throat on the situation. That's true. Obviously, Luca has the ability to do that. So I would

say Mavs and out of the east, I kind of want the Knicks to really have a run here. They're, starting to hit their stride. And frankly, I would like to see them in Vegas because I want to see that offense up close because they haven't yet. Same. We need some cat shimmies. We need some shakes. We need some post moves. I think we need some insufferable Nick fans too.

Well, one follows the other. Are you guys going to shimmy at all when we're in Vegas? I got you. I've been shimmy in for years, brother. I don't know what that means, but I can't wait to find out. All right, why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blakely for joining the conversation and also producing us today. Thank you to Ben Cruz.

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