The Ringer NBA Show - Donovan Mitchell, Rudy Gobert, and the Jazz's Recent Struggles

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

Wos is joined by Sarah Todd, who covers the Jazz for the Deseret News, to discuss the Jazz's recent struggles (1:26). Then they get into the complicated dynamic between Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell (12:44). Host: Wosny Lambre Guest: Sarah Todd Production: Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, long-time writer with the Atlantic Magazine on tech, culture, and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Plain English starts November 16th. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. of weekends with Woz on the Ringer podcast network. Of course, I'm Big Wasaq.a. Wazzy Lampera, joined by a very special guest today. My friend of the Deseret News, Sarah Todd, what's going on, Sarah?

I'm just gearing up for the trade deadline. I love it. You know, I love having my friends up here to dish on the teams that they cover that they're most close to. because again, like, it's hard for us who are not with the team every day to be as close to what's going on as you are. And obviously, I think, like, I feel like you're one of the most plugged in people with Utah. That being said, it's a kind of crazy time for the jazz right now. Injuries, of course, have decimated them. But there's something like 3 and 11 in their last 14 games.

Am I getting that messed up? Yeah, before they won the last two, they went four and 12 through all of them. January. Lord of mercy. It was a bad month for them, man. NBA finals, teams with NBA finals aspirations don't generally go 4 and 14 or 4 and 12 for any particular stretch. So obviously a bad sign.

I wanted to talk about them today because I have a hard time quitting the jazz after they let me down last playoffs. I still was like, they got all of the stuff to make a run. run this year. I talked to Donovan Mitchell before the season started. He literally said conference finals or bust. This season is a failure if the jazz don't go to the conference finals, but they sort of hit this rough patch. What would you mainly attribute this to besides obviously the COVID and the injuries? Yeah, the COVID and the injuries are a big part of it. But I think that through the stretch when they were dealing with COVID and injuries, and right now

they're just like barely starting to come out of it. What was highlighted was their biggest weaknesses. Because like as guys start going down, the things that you have problems with before are just going to light shine even brighter. And so perimeter defense has been a problem for the jazz for as long as we can probably remember. I mean, all of the playoff appearances that they have had under Quinn Snyder,

perimeter defense has been a problem. It's been the rockets, the warriors, Denver, the clippers. And all of it has been, they haven't been versatile and because they haven't been able to handle the point of attack. And that is still a problem for the jazz. And so I think that when you think about the problems, it's like, will they be able to handle that in the playoffs once again? And then also, what we see is they cannot play if they don't have Regal Bear and they cannot play if they don't have Donovan Mitchell. The same can be said about most teams if you take their two best

players two all stars away. But like they don't have like the depth of a Phoenix sons who can plug in a guy if maybe a guy's down with injury. They don't have that. Right. You know, Quinn Snyder for as great and successful as he's been in Utah, he has one of the lowest profiles in the league for a coach. Like you just don't hear from the guy.

So I wonder what's the sense of how he feels about how things are going? Yeah, he definitely has a low profile. He has a little profile in Utah. Like the guy is private as hell. Like he does not, you know, you're not going to see a feature written about like Quinn Snyder and his family. That's not happening. I think that you can tell when Quinn is frustrated because like post games, he, you know,

his hands shake a little bit more. Oh, wow. He takes off his glasses and puts them on, like, repeatedly when he's extra frustrated. Like, he doesn't know exactly what to do with his hands or glasses. And he's been doing that a lot lately. But, I mean, he just came out of COVID protocol today. And so he's been gone for a week. But before that, you know, there were times during the stretch where he's like, listen,

it doesn't matter who we've got on the court. We have to defend. Like, that has to happen. And like the fact that guys aren't focused and they're not defending is a problem. And so like he he gets most frustrated on like non-effort plays. He could care less if the guys shoot the ball and it goes in, honestly. But he gets really pissed off when guys aren't putting in effort on the other end. Well, they were third in defensive efficiency last year.

And I think right now last I checked, they're about 14 mid-table. That's just not going to get it done. As much as they've, you know, they've, traditionally, they've been a defensive first team. That's what their calling card was for the last, like, three, four years. Then last year, they became this sort of juggernaut on offense. And I feel like a lot of times when that happens with teams and players, they start to lean into offense more.

Because shooting, making threes and dunks and all of that, that's what gets you on Sports Center. That's what gets you FaceTime. Executing perfectly crisp rotations generally doesn't. And it feels like they've shot away from that identity. Yeah, it feels like, I think that, you know, Mike Conley has been one of the guys the last few weeks that has kind of been a proponent of getting back to what that feeling was last season.

Because, yeah, it feels, obviously, it feels good when you're hitting daggers and dude's faces, you know, and you guys are hitting 20, 23, 3s a night, right? Like that stuff feels good. But, you know, the last couple of weeks, you hear Mike Conley, he's, you know, 34 years old, he's diving on the floor for loose balls and he's like running into screens and stuff. And he's like, right now we need to be excited about a good screen. Right now we need to be excited about an offensive rebound.

Like those are the plays that we need to be excited about. Because like the other stuff, even early in the season before they hit that rough patch in January. Like the jazz just didn't like feel good or exciting. Okay. There was just something that felt a little off. And I think that maybe they needed to kind of get smacked in the face a little bit so they can get back to, you know, exactly what you were saying that they had last season.

There's, you know, I feel like if this team wasn't in Utah, there would be a lot more chatter around the situation, right? and we're going to get into Rudy and Donovan in a minute. We'll get spicy in a minute. But I want to talk about the Danny Aange of it all because this is his first year in charge. Obviously, he's really close friends with the owner. And all indications are that he's got a lot of sway and influence in decision making. And he hasn't put his imprint on the team yet.

So I feel like guys have to be feeling that part of it with new management and sort of not knowing where they stand with the new group. What's age been like throughout this whole process? It's got to suck probably to have a jazz beat writer on here with you right now and for me to be like, I don't know. It's so weird, man, because like, you know, if Danny Aange wants to be, him to come in and just be a part of the basketball world again. Like they could have hired him on as like a senior consultant, right? But they gave him the title of like CEO of all of basketball. That's a title that didn't exist before and a title that feels very big.

Like they didn't give him the pobo title and they still have a general manager. And so it feels like Aange has a lot of sway. But how that works, I don't know because like the only interaction the reporters of had with Danny Aange has been his introductory press conference back in December. And Ryan Smith, the owner and Aange and even Justin Zannick, mostly it felt like spearheaded by Ryan Smith. We're trying to sort of push this narrative that, you know, they're operating as like a startup tech company that everything is collaborative and like everything happens in the room together.

And like there is no hierarchy. but like that's not how basketball works you know someone's got to make the call to ryan and say this is what this is the last word someone if things go bad someone's going to fall on a sword and it's not it's not a collaborative sword right and so i don't know how the anged things works and i've got to think that if i don't know there's other people that don't know and there's probably players that are feeling the same way like i don't know how this works either and so it's that is a little bit a strange drop in the pool that has made things a little weird this season. Well, you hear, you know, I've heard some snarky remarks.

Yeah, he's the part-time GM with all the power. Like, you hear that like he's kind of there, but he's kind of not. It's so strange. And, you know, the reason why I bring it up is because you mentioned it when we got on the call. We're right ahead of the trade deadline. And who's doing that? Are the jazz trying to make a move?

what are you hearing about what they're doing to upgrade this roster? Because again, it feels like it's either now and never with this group. It does feel like that. Like no matter what's going to happen, like you said, we'll get into like Donovan and Rudy stuff. Like no matter what happens with those guys, like

the thing is is that you don't know what's going to happen, right? And so you have to push all the chips in when you got these guys in their prime. And the window felt like it was last season. And so this might be the last window that you have. like Mike Conley's still playing great.

And like, that's not going to father time is undefeated. And that's not going to keep happening forever. And so you just got to push all the chips in. Then Joe Ingalls blows out his knee, tears his ACL, he's done. That really changes the dynamic of what they're able to do. And that happens, you know, a week before the trade deadline. That doesn't make things easy. And because I think that Joe Ingalls was pretty high on that trade block and that they

were going to try to move him to be able to bring in maybe a wing defender, or maybe a two-way guy. But like now you might have to package picks in there with Joe just to offload the contract so you're not paying $30 million in luxury tax for a guy to sit on the bench. And so they've got a couple of other roster spots open, but there are questions like,

is Hassan Whiteside going to be good enough for a few minutes in the playoffs? Or do you need to get another center to come in behind Gobert? Are you going to be able to play small ball with Rudy Gay? or is he like not athletic enough to handle what's going to be thrown at him in the playoffs? They've got, you know, Donovan Mitchell and Mike Conley. Joe Ingalls was like the backup ball handler when those guys aren't on the floor. Joe Ingalls isn't there anymore. Trent Forrest, who's on a two-way contract, they would have to give him a standard deal now

if they want him to plug in for a few minutes. So there's so many moving pieces and so many things that they really should address. And they've got less capital now without the Joe Ingalls' health. Right. And so they lose a key cog last week, tough, but he said he's coming back. He's not, you know, this isn't a career ending thing. He's going to be back. He's not retiring.

As per my man, Tim Bond Temps. But, excuse me, not Tim Bond Temps. Big Man. Ben, yeah. Shouts to the hoop collective. Look, I feel like I had you come up here today because the Rudy and Donovan thing is back to very high levels of spice. Your call, obviously, because you're over there.

I think it was about two years ago, we got the first rumors and grumblings about, well, maybe Donovan Mitchell isn't that happy in Utah. Maybe he would be open to a trade, or maybe it would be this. And then, of course, the world blamed Rudy Gobert for a global pandemic, which was ridiculous.

And that whole awkwardness. And then I remember there was a time of kumbaya where everybody was like, everything's fine, folks. Actually, I seem to remember Sarah, you were one of the people like, calm down, everything's okay. Yes, they don't, you know,

go on banana boats together in the off-season, but they're fine. But recently, the spices back up. And Rudy's talking about playing with the purpose. He's quoted as to saying when you watch the Warriors and the sons play, they're playing with passion

and purpose and their guys care about stopping the guy in front of them. He mentioned Devin Booker by name about how hard Devin Booker plays and how he cares about it on defense and I'm just like, huh,

to just point to other teams and say specifically how they're exceeding, in ways, or succeeding, excuse me, in ways that the jazz aren't, that felt like a shot across the bout of Donovan Mitchell. It definitely didn't feel like it wasn't a shot.

A couple things there. Like, I do think that things get overinflated from the outside about Donovan and Rudy. I do think that like, Donovan has sort of like a quick temper. like he reacts very quickly and needs a minute to cool down. I think that's what happened back when COVID broke out and you heard a lot of stuff about their relationship.

He's really mad at first and then he kind of steps back. It's what happened when the medical staff told him he couldn't play in game one against Memphis last year. He reacted very quickly to that, took a step back. And then it turned out that he was not ready to go. Like he was injured, right? And so he is a little bit reactionary when it comes to stuff like that. But I think that there's a few things. Like it's not like Rudy's wrong, right?

He's not. The proof is in the pudding. Right. And Donovan Mitchell himself has been talking about it at least, you know, three seasons now that I've been here, that he needs to be better on defense in order for this team to succeed. And so like Donovan is able to say it. But it's one of those things that's like, yeah, man, I can say it,

but you don't get to like compare me to Devin Booker out in the media, right? Like that doesn't feel great. It doesn't look great. I think that, you know, image is really important to Donovan. And I think that the image of like being a winner is important. I think that the, you know, West Finals or bust is an expectation not just from Donovan, but it's the expectation from the outside of this team. Like anything less would be a failure of this team.

if they continue to flame out in first or second round. But I think that like beyond on the court, image is probably important to Donovan. And I think we can go back all the way to the rookie race against Ben Simmons. And like that is a guy that he is going to be compared to throughout his career, along with a guy like Devin Booker, whether or not Donovan Mitchell likes that or whether or not the comparison is fair. He's going to be compared to him.

and Ben Simmons not getting along with a teammate and wanting out of his situation and looking a certain way for trying to push himself out has not looked good for Ben Simmons. And I think that Donovan is probably pretty aware of how that looks. And so I don't think that Donovan wants to look like the guy that's going to push himself out and be hated on because of that. And so I think that it really depends

on what this team is able to do. If they continue to lose, I think that he would be able to sort of say, I want out of this situation because I want to be a winner. But like, are you a winner if you're trying to go like just like get up shots next to Julius Randall

in New York? Right. Yeah. And so I think that the landing spot, the situation in Utah and like how that's going to make Donovan Mitchell look will really play into this. I want to dig a little bit deeper into the Rudy dynamic because from a distance, it seems pretty obvious what Rudy Gobert's deal is,

meaning I do all the thankless shit that wins his games that isn't glamorized. And I do it consistently. And I set hard-ass screens and I roll really hard to the rim and I barely touch the rock and I'm the only reason we're not a fucking turnstile on defense

okay? Like I play a major fucking role on this team and it feels like Donovan is sort of the center of gravity and I can understand because look I'll be the first person to say I've said some things

about Rudy in the past because it's like the crying about All-Star and you know I got a little good authority that he's literally going to the Utah statisticians for extra blocks and rebounds and all of that. Like that type of shit gets on my nerves, but you can't take away the fact that he does a thankless job and he's doing it at 110% every night.

And I can understand why he's like, yo, everybody's jerking this dude off. If he's so great, why is our effort lacking? Why isn't he showing up in the ways that his peers are? like Donovan, like, excuse me, Devin Booker, et cetera, et cetera. I kind of understanding. What's Donovan's problem with Rudy? Yeah, I mean, I think that it's like something that can go both ways.

Like Rudy saying all those things, like none of that's going to be incorrect. But Donovan could turn around and be like, you know, we lose six possessions a game because you're in the back court, like bitch into the officials, like run back where you're supposed to be so that you can space us out. the reason that you're down there, right? Like, they could both like back and forth on like, you should do this better. I think that what adds to sort of the Rudy thing too is like not only is he doing so much on the court, but he's also like so misunderstood off the court. And there's like, you know, him being like, you know, an international guy and like you mentioned

like the crying after All Star thing. Like people are going to remember that and they're going to think like, oh, you were crying because you didn't get an All-Star. spot, which in my opinion would have been fine. But, you know, he also had just gotten off the phone with his mom who like really wanted that for him. And like he grew up like in the projects in France and like incredible poverty. And for her to be like, I wanted this for you as a touchstone to show how far you've come. Like that would make any grown man cry. Sure. You know? Absolutely. And so like he's also like one of the most self reflective players that I've ever covered like in the 10 years of covering the league. And I think that guys of that sensitivity, guys of, you know, of his ilk, that's that you're not

in a part of like the NBA fraternity, right? Like he's not a part of the cool guy group. And so I think that that probably eats at him in a way that maybe will make him say things like, listen, look at Devin Booker. He's improved on defense, right? When like maybe the real thing that he wants to say is like, I want everybody to care as much as I do. That's not the cool thing to say in a locker room, right? Right. And so it's a lot of different things. And, man, because, you know, I do want to get you out of here.

I feel like if the Utah Jazz flame out and say the second round this year, um, heads are going to roll whether that be a breakup. of the team, some trades, whatever. Something's going to happen. What's your sense about where this is all going if they don't reach the goals that they've set out for themselves? Yeah, I've said this a few times this year that, like, I think that Quinn Snyder is an incredibly smart coach.

I think he's really good. I think that he's well respected throughout the coaching community. but even still, I think he's probably underrated. And all of that being said, five years in the playoffs and basically no results higher than first or second round, like you might start there, right? Especially if the jazz go into it healthy

because he hasn't really had like fully healthy roster, but if the jazz go into the playoffs healthy and they still flame out, at that point you kind of have to start, you know, thinking top to bottom. Like, is Danny Ains, the one that made the calls at the trade deadline or is Justin Zanick and which one of them is going to pay for it? Is Quinn Snyder going to be able to make it work with this group?

What if we blow it up and it's a different group? Do we want Quinn Snyder at the helm? And then you go down to the roster and it's like, are we going to blow it up? Or are we going to pick off around the edges and see if we can rebuild it? And so I think it's top down that you have to start looking at the team. Yeah, it feels that way because, you know, when Ryan Smith got hired and, I mean, I hired, when he bought the team and he was saying all the right things and, you know, Utah's not, obviously, it's a famously small market.

We know what the luxury tax implications are, but he came out and he said, yo, first thing I'm doing his own, I'm giving Rudy $200 million, which sounds great when you're coming in and it's all optimistic and everything is sunny and rosy. Then a couple years, you don't make it past the second round and you start. looking at your tax bill and you're like, whoa, what are we really doing here? So it feels like, again, like that this is, that this is do or die. And, you know, I want to know, like, if they succeed, why do you think that that will be? That's a good question. I think that, I think that success this season really, really depends on what they're able to do this week. Like, I don't think that

the team as is is going to succeed. I think they need more. And so whether or not they bring in someone that can really sure things up is going to really make a difference. And I, and I do have some doubts about that because Ingalls isn't the capital that he was when he was healthy. And so whatever deal they're able to make. And also like if they signed Daniel House for the rest of the season, like how they move and change the rotation and how that is going to play out in the playoffs. I think it's really going to matter. And so I think if we're looking at who is going to be the reason for their success, it will be Quinn and the players because making it happen on the court, obviously, is the end-all be-all. And if they, if they're able to do

that and make it work on the court, then we can look back and say, like, all right, well, was it Justin Zanick or was it Danny Ains, right? But I don't think that people care as much about that. Like that's kind of a thankless job too, right? Like the guy who actually made the call and made the deal. But like the deal only works if the guy can like work with the team, work within the system. And so I really do that think that if they're successful, it'll be because Quinn and the players put it together.

Well, you know, they feel very similar to Milwaukee last year where it's just like, we get it, you're good, but you got to do something in the postseason. It's kind of put up or shut up. I'll be watching them very closely. I was really bullish on them coming into the season. I feel like when they've had all their guys, they still looked pretty good.

And I understand that it's an 82 game season. And we get it, all of those caveats. but man, I'm very fascinated to see what will happen. And yeah, I'm going to be checking them Rudy postgame comments for the rest of the season. I promise you that. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on. Deseret News, Sarah Todd, you're the goat. Tell people where they can find you.

You can find me on all the socials at NBA, Sarah. Read my stuff at deserate.com. Love it. Thank you, Sarah. Be good. Thanks, Waz.