The Ringer NBA Show - Donovan Mitchell to the Cavs, the Rejuvenated Nuggets, and the Rockets' Alternate Jerseys

Episode Date: September 1, 2022

Justin Verrier and J. Kyle Mann get together to share their instant reactions to news of the Donovan Mitchell trade to the Cleveland Cavaliers. They discuss the details of the deal itself and how Mitchell's skill set will contribute to a Cavs team that was already on the rise. After the break, Kyle is joined by Wosny Lambre to talk about the Denver Nuggets gearing up for this coming season with a fully healthy roster (29:41), and the culture of alternative jerseys in the NBA (38:11). Hosts: Justin Verrier and J. Kyle Mann Guest: Wosny Lambre Producer: Chris Sutton  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Call me sentimental, but to me, the most joyful moment in sports is the soccer goal. And when that goal happens at the World Cup, well, it's pretty good. I'm Brian Phillips. With the 2022 Men's World Cup approaching, I'm making a podcast called 22 goals on the Ringer Podcast Network. It's about 22 of the most fire emoji goals in the history of the tournament. We're going to have so much fun. Oh, and welcome to this special edition of the Ringer and

NBA show. I am Justin Verrier and joining me again back-to-back weeks. Jay Kyle Mann, what is up, buddy? Oh man, not a lot other than, not for me. There's a lot up for these guys who were on the move unexpectedly. I told you I was roused from my deep 20-minute nap and I'm up and I'm just a little groggy, ready to talk about this trade. The world, I feel like the whole world just kind of, you never know with the NBA, man. The whole world can just turn upside down in a moment's notice and that's why we're always trying to be on top of this stuff. Well, a lot's happening for you because you recorded a different podcast with our friend Wozney earlier today. And you will hear in this episode the second half of that podcast between Was and Kyle. But first, we have a breaking

news to address here, which is why I got tapped in. They brought in the bullpen arm. The Donovan Mitchell trade happened. Unfortunately, it's not the one that we expected. He goes to the Cleveland Cavaliers, kind of out of nowhere. Like, I don't even think there was reporting buildup to this. There was just, I was making coffee at like 12 o'clock PT here on the West Coast. And it's just down and Mitchell going to the calves. And the details, as we learned later, uh, the jazz will receive Lori Markinen, uh, Ochi Abaji. Am I saying that right? I believe so. Okay. Close enough. Uh, apologies to the Abaji family, if I didn't. Uh, Colin Sexton in a sign in trade, he was a restricted free agent. Three unprotected first round picks, two pick swaps, and the Cavs get our friend

Donovan Mitchell. Just first reactions. Are you surprised it was Cleveland and not the Knicks that swooped in here and got our guy Donnie? I guess the surprise in terms of it not being the Knicks is kind of the big storyline because we've just been kind of circling. And it's kind of funny how Danny Aange, I guess, was in some ways, roper-doping, you know, winding up, like this is coming, this is coming. And maybe the whole time he was kind of setting up leverage for another deal. It was starting to look like that deal was going to, if it was going to happen, it was going to be a super pick heavy move. Like the RJ, something that was and I talked about earlier, a whole lot was the RJ Barrett part of this.

And then he does, you know, is finalizing his extension. What does that mean? What's interesting is you and I talked about this hypothetically on an episode recently and we were like, what are some other teams that kind of makes sense on this front for for Donovan Mitchell and maybe a potential trade partner? I mentioned the Cavs with no knowledge. Like you said, you can say you enhorsted this. You willed this into existence.

No, I think more just on a like basketball, on a deep just sort of like basketball instinct thing. I kind of did the same thing with the Knicks and Dennis Smith. Every once in a while, I'll throw a dart and hit one. But you're right, there was no... It wasn't going off info. It was more of just a basketball thinking kind of a thing. There really was no, there was no scent in the air to what you were saying that was indicating that this might happen, a big surprise.

Right. Well, let's talk about the basketball of it all because when it happened, I was a little bit more mixed, you know? And as I sit with it, I'm convincing myself more of it. But I'm curious what your take is. And like, let's start with just what it means for Cleveland on paper. you assume that their new starting lineup is Mitchell, Darius Garland. We'll see who they play at the three, start at the three. Maybe it's Lavert. Maybe he goes into more of a six-man roll. Maybe it's a coro. We'll see about that.

And then you assume Mobley and Jared Allen. What do you think about the fit with Mitchell and what do you think about the Cavs overall with that starting lineup? So you're saying I'd rather have these two six-foot-one guards instead of these two. And the difference here really that you're keying in on is that the calves didn't have faith in keeping Colin Sexton, didn't want to pay him long term, but they are interested in Donovan Mitchell. And I think the big difference is the playmaking growth, which you and I talked about. He's had a lot of that. He's had a lot of shooting consistency growth. You're kind of wondering what he's going to be like defensively. How much of his defensive dip was the the mired and malaise

thing that we talked about in Utah, because if you don't like the people you're defending with, you're going to struggle to defend. I know that that's just kind of a work environment thing. somebody else can go somewhere else with people they like and a better culture and look like a different defender. Mitchell is just a better player than Sexton. And I think it makes sense, but it does pose a lot of line-up concerns like you talked about. Who are they going to play at the three?

I feel like Isaac Acoro is probably a good choice. At 6-5-6-8 wing span can kind of guard bigger guys. But they instantly become a more interesting team. Yeah, and that's probably the top line of this all, is that the calves are way more interesting than they were even last season. And they're plenty of interesting last season. I too have the concerns defensively. And like I'm starting to get kind of feel the same way I did about the Knicks

combination of Mitchell and Brunson. It's like, where is the defense going to come on the perimeter? And the filling that three spy is going to be a big concern. But obviously the calves have a lot of heft in the paint to probably clear that up. And so I think it's more of a big picture kind of question I have here. I'm curious what you think. Is having Mobley and Allen there to clean everything up going to be enough to where that perimeter defense doesn't matter?

Or are we going to get into a similar situation like you're mentioning with the jazz where it's like you rely too much on Rudy Gobert and you don't pay enough attention to some of the guys you're asking to stop on the perimeter? And it is going to be fine, but not what you need. I think they're kind of layers of, you know, you and I were joking about. There are layers of people who like outlines as podcasters and there are layers of rim protectors. And they're different types. They're not all the same.

Whenever you're building a defense, if you have a guy that you can park at the rim, like a rim protector, like a Gobert, like a Joe L. Embed, it's different. Now, the difference between Allen, the Allen and Mobley combo, which we haven't really seen a lot of combos like this in terms of their switchability. they can really guard guys at all three levels and survive. It's rare to have two guys like that. I mean, we just don't see it very often. But to go off of that, the perimeter stuff still does matter. And I think whenever you have one guy that you're relying on, you can pull them away from the basket.

These guys can switch. They don't have to be parked at the rim. Kind of makes you wonder where LaVird, I don't think, is going to help them in that sense. I think you're probably going to need him to be later in the rotation. I think you're going to need to see more. You're going to need to see more from Isaac Okoro. I know they got some good minutes out of Lamar Stevens defensively. He's a pretty flexible defender.

I don't know. There's a lot of questions, but I think they're going to be able to, offensively, they're going to be amazing, I think. Yeah, I mean, I think in an ideal world, you'd be able to play that style until a playoff team forces you not to, right? And maybe there's a world in which that they're so successful with a Mowbly and Allen front court, that it doesn't matter.

Like, the Celtics are a prime example of this. They just stayed big, and they didn't really get pushed off of it. But on the other hand, you could argue, like, well, maybe if they had more wing depth, then it would have been more advantageous for them to go with more of a one big situation

and maybe match up a little bit more with the Warriors or any other team that's going to be wing-heavy because it does feel like every single year we get into this situation where we talk about size and what it matters. And like, oh, my God, the unicorns are coming to take over the world.

And then you see, three, four wings on the court, and the Warriors had that. And I wouldn't go as far as to say that that swung the finals. But like, you know, I think it's pretty telling that they were the ones that came out on that series. But maybe that's just burying the most important part of this is that I wonder if they'll just have so much offensive firepower at this point and playmaking capabilities with not only Garland and Mitchell, which I think will be really exciting to watch. but Mowgli year two. We basically saw Mowgli act as like just an ancillary part into all of this. And you have to assume he's actually going to be doing way more.

And the possibilities of like those three guys figuring this out on the fly, let alone actually like doing it and like putting it all together is really exhilarating, to be honest. Yeah, it is. It's fun to imagine Mowgli as sort of like a connective playmaker. I think the areas of growth for him are like, creating his own in terms, you know, around the elbow, around the foul line. He's shown some of that like pull-up jumper stuff. He's shown some working out of the post. Right now he's most

lethal as like a hard roller. But I think there's a lot of like growth potential for him like handling the ball even, but that's not in the short term. I think you're right with like the offensive stuff. Maybe you roll a vert out there who is, you know, still 28 years old, 6-6 can really score it. I think that three-man lineup is really interesting. And then whenever you have a team, you're trying to find ways to keep these combinations of positive traits on the floor at one time. Because we talk a lot about how like, oh, the Warriors play small ball. It's like, yeah, but they'll have Looney. You know, they'll have Looney who's a true big and they'll have Draymond out there who plays like a big and then a big wing out there. Can you put enough like ball skills out there to

protect the ball and take care of it while still being rugged and defensive and big. Like the Celtics tried to balance it, but they couldn't quite keep enough playmaking on the floor. It's a really tricky thing to balance. I still don't know that they're done. You know, that would be kind of my thing. It doesn't it's, it feels like, it feels like they're like one guy away, which Abaji kind of fit this mold of like a really diligent, strong defender who can hit open threes. I had my concerns about him, like, growing as a creator, but they obviously were willing to part with him.

It doesn't feel like they're done, though. Do you agree or disagree with that? Right. Well, because we can't really find on the roster someone who fits that true three model, that three and D3, which they desperately need at this point, as we're saying, if we're going to really make sense of it all. Levert, I've never been the biggest Levert fan. And if anything, he strikes me as someone who's just going to be in the Jamal Crawford,

like energy scoring off the bends instantaneously. Someone who maybe can close a game, though I'm not like super into that idea. But that's probably his future. Or Crowro seems to fit the mold. But I guess we're wondering whether or not he has enough size and at this point has enough offense to be able to stay on the floor because I believe he was at 29% shooting from three his first season, 35 last year, which is a little bit better. But like you're going to want him to be basically be your catch and shoot guy.

And I don't think he's there yet. And if he's not, maybe someone else would have more space for him and you can get someone a little bit closer to the archetype you're looking for. Yeah, you kind of wonder if maybe they, how aggressive or not aggressive they'll be is, like, I would assume they'd be a really aggressive on ball team because of what they have at the back. Maybe you switch things not at the front, but you switch at the back with Allen and with Mobley to keep them in the vicinity of the paint. Can Mitchell and Garland do that, though?

Garland, a little less. I mean, I'm a little, both of them have a lot of questions. Garland's just physically small. That's the problem. I mean, he's going to have to, I don't know when he, like, physically is going to mature enough to not get taken advantage of because I don't know, I don't know, I don't expect him to be like a plus defender. It's kind of similar to the parallel of Steph. Steph's a little bit bigger than Darius Garland. But you kind of look at the bigger guys across the landscape here, like the Jimmy Butler's, the Jason Tatum's, the Scotty Barnes.

You think about the Bulls can roll some lineups out there. I was looking at this today. They can roll out like Lonzo Damar Levine. Some of these teams that can really stack up the size at the one, two, three spots. Those teams seem like they could really cause them problems to me. Yeah, it reminds me a lot of the Pelican team that had success with DeMarcus cousins and Anthony Davis in the front court, but they only had three guards. And so Etouin Moore had to basically be their three and D three for a while.

And it worked enough because they. they had enough around it. There was just so much juice in that lineup that it worked, but it's probably not ideal. It's probably a question not for the regular seasons, but I imagine this is something we're going to be talking about in the playoffs. Offensively, are you concerned at all that Garland and Mitchell have to share a little bit more than probably either is used to? I guess Garland had a stint with Sexton, but Mitchell, I'm trying to think, I don't think

he's ever had someone like this because even Mike Conley is one of the best. veteran most deferential type of guys who was on the later end of his career. This is going to be probably a new experience with Mitchell to not only share with Garland, but whatever 2.0 Evan Moble will be as well. Yeah, you kind of think about what they are as players. I've had some back and forth with Cavs fans about Garland being score first. He's lean scoring most of his life. It's just that he's capable of doing both in the same way, again,

not to invoke the name of Hallow Be That name, Steph Curry, but I mean, it's a similar thing. He's such a talented score that he scores, but he is very willing to pass. Mitchell, on the other hand, I think he's a more talented passer than Mitchell is, but Mitchell has sort of grown into a willing and capable passer, more of a natural facilitator,

whereas he kind of was just by his athleticism and his, you know, a get-to-the-rim kind of guy, not a natural playmaker. I don't worry about it, mainly also because Mobley, is a really willing passer and is willing to play out of the high post. And you kind of open the doors for some like offball kind of split action type stuff where they can work off of Mobley, incorporate a lot of movement into your offense. And then you have big dunkers who can kind of slip screens and get to the rim.

It opens up a lot of possibilities. I guess the question is like stylistically, are they going to be such a pain in the ass that they, that that's enough to trade on? Like you were talking about that Pelicans lineup that had so much, juice. I do think that there's enough on-ball offensive talent here to be a headache. The versatility, mainly defensively, is the big question because it always is in the playoffs, how far your flexibility and your versatility, which are the same thing, kind of dictate your ceiling, which are the same thing. Really dictate where you're going to go. But they're going

for it. I love it. I like this move for them. Okay, I'm glad you mentioned that because that was kind of my next question is what do we think about this in the big picture? because when we last left the Cleveland Cavaliers, they were kind of hobbling their way out of the playing tournament. Not necessarily their fault. They did get hurt. And I think overall last season was a success, but I wouldn't have picked them as a team

that was willing to make this sort of leap from good to potentially great. I won't say great, but I would say like in the mix for being interesting, right? And the more I think about it, I really love this. because it reminds me a lot of this idea that you talk a lot about in football where it's like when you have the breakthrough rookie QB,

you want to spend elsewhere. And while I didn't see this coming, it makes a lot of sense because while Garland just signed an extension that I believe is going to kick in next year, Mobley's in year two and is already playing at an all defensive level. We'll see if he's even all NBA next year.

I think he has that talent. I don't know if he'll put it all together, especially now that he has to share the ball so much. but I just love the aggressiveness that the calf showed. I'm a little bit worried about the price and we can get into that. But just overall, do you feel like this was a good opportunity that the calves probably shouldn't have passed up? You use the word QB.

I think that it's whenever you can get a first piece, this is what I, Charx and I talk about this all the time, like if you can get the first piece in the sequence that you can, can build off of. Those pieces are so hard to get. And you made the quarterback comparison. The comparison there is the parallel there in thinking and just like modes of roster building is that. Is that like, Mobley is the quarterback of a defense and a very special one. I mean, like, I think that that should be impressed upon people that this guy is like historically very special for how young he is. You're talking about him figuring out or him figuring out

deferring. I don't think that would be a problem at all. This kid is, I hate calling him kids, but he's a very smart player. I expect him to figure it out. I expect him to make another leap this year just because of that. The timing of it is the question. Why not? I mean, I don't know. I think that you're not going to be bad enough.

That's the question, really. In the short term, you're probably not going to be bad enough to continue to build with, like, high picks. They've already passed that threshold, like what they have works. So I guess you just go ahead. And I mean, in terms of like getting some core pieces, those three guys make a lot of sense. I'm kind of curious who would be potentially next on deck if they were to make another move. But for that reason, in the short term, you're not going to be bad enough, I think, to get more high picks. So that would be my answer.

That's probably why I would do it. Yeah. Yeah. And on the one hand, I would say maybe there's a pro like a surefire elite fit, like the absolute dream scenario that you can get that maybe Mitchell doesn't represent. On the other hand, I don't really see a pathway where the Cavs necessarily would be at the front of the list for that player. And so you probably have to take these sort of opportunities when you come to them. I'm pretty concerned, not only with Cleveland, but with some of the other small market teams that we've seen, Atlanta most recently, and Minnesota,

I would throw in there too, just being so willing to pay these inflated prices for superstars this summer and just kind of say, well, if we're just awful in 2027, so be it. I think that makes a little bit more sense if you're a big market team. I think there's like a huge risk to this not working out, especially considering that Mitchell has two years on his deal and then I guess a player option. And there haven't been any reported indications as of now that he intends to stay beyond that. I don't know if there's like a handshake deal that we'll find out later. But If this is a two-year situation, it's absolutely disastrous. Yeah.

And so I guess I like the trade, though I'm worried long-term in like 2027, when only the Utah Jazz and the Thunder are going to be drafting players. It's going to have seven first roundics on their team. Yeah, they're just going to swap. They're just going to go back and forth trading picks every round. It's like, all right, who do you want? Just the embarrassment of teams. It's really odd leverage dynamic in the league to have only a few teams.

And also, yeah, you're right. I mean, what if they get to the end of these two years? And he's just like, all right, I'm going to the Knicks. That's an interesting thing. I mean, I think the basketball situation here, I think, is better in Cleveland, though, in terms of like the dynamics of what they're doing both directions. When is the cap set to go up again? I meant to look at this.

And how does that factor into this is another question. I thought that was supposed to happen here pretty shortly, right? And that's going to be a pretty drastic shift. Yeah, I mean, there's more money coming in every year. We're getting away from the pandemic and there's going to be a potential CBA renegotiation. What you hear most of all is that there's so much money pouring in that there isn't going to be any sort of work stoppage. So it seems like things are going well.

And you're getting even John Hollinger most prominently, but other people have mentioned how even an RJ Barrett style extension, which seems lucrative right now, will actually be a bargain considering in like two years or whenever it comes in. the money is just going to be absurd. But yeah, I don't know. It's going to be weird. Speaking of the Knicks, just briefly, seeing that they're probably amongst the big losers

if we're doing winners and losers here, how are you feeling if you're Leon Rose or even like our friend, Wasney Lambray noted Nick's faithful? Like, are you pretty bummed out here? Are you looking at the price and saying, like, we're fine, we'll figure it out later. We, at the very least, have the market muscle

to maybe get the next guy in line. I would have been pretty crestfallen. And if I was a Knicks fan and I was telling Waz this earlier on a version of this pod that no one will ever hear. So really there's no reason in referencing it at all because it's all the same to you guys. But I've had a funny evolution with R.J. Barrett where I went from being irritated with him and having a problem with some of the ways that he played to. I've circle all the way to like I'm actually a pretty strong R.J. Barrett defender and apologists. I think he's never been in a good basketball situation. Anyway, on the Knicks. They had a lot of picks, and that was the kind of the threshold that they could have gone to, you know, just gone all out and played the Danny Ains game, which it seemed like he just kind of was fixated on them and their picks and just being like, I'm just going to see if they will, if they, he was giving him the Jim Moss from, from Barry, if you've watched that show, just giving them the face-to-face treatment of like, give me your picks. Give me your picks.

they chose, have you seen Barry? You know what I'm talking about? I work at the ringer man, okay? I've seen Barry. Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, I, they decided not to do that. Ultimately, that's going to help them stay limber. What they do with those picks. I hope they continue, they changed their mindset about like continuing to seek playmaking, which they were going after Donovan Mitchell, which hopefully is a good indicator. I don't know. It's, it stinks if you're the Knicks, but also you got to kind of think where would you have been? We've talked about this a lot. What would that team have looked like compared like what the calves look like. I don't know that they would have been drastically farther ahead in the short term. I don't know that their problems would have been solved if they'd gotten Mitchell. So it stinks,

but I'm glad that I didn't like take a big bite out of my future to do it, you know, based on what they could have gotten. Yeah, I think if we were to take a time machine back to two years ago when the Knicks were in their heyday of Julius Randall putting up all NBA numbers and bringing them back to the playoffs and the Knicks are back, baby. I think that guy or gal would have been like, okay, I'm good with prudence, right? I think after so many swings and misses and so many different rebuilding plans, I think there was like this acceptance that like, you know what, we'll just figure this out.

Like we have stuff. We're good. We're not great. We're going to be happy with what we are. Maybe like there was a whole mindfulness thing happening with Knicks fans. I don't know. And I think that if there's a silver lining, it's that, that you didn't resign yourself to a future of the unknown in the same way the calves are. Like, you aren't just giving everything away yet again for yet another superstar who may bring you back to prominence.

And as you're saying, like, what would they even been in the east? Like maybe a succeed? Who knows? That's like, that's the good side of things. If you want to be optimistic. The pessimist is like, well, haven't you been setting up your. entire summer for this moment to the point where you traded out of your draft pick to get other lesser value draft picks from teams that are probably going to be pretty good in the near future in order to put together a package for something like this. And at the very least,

you've been messaging that our guy Donnie is coming, that there will be a savior, that this will be a star-laden next team. And you have to wonder if like maybe Leon Rose overnegotiated in the situation that what was supposed to be his benefit, that he was this shrewd guy with relationships throughout the league who had negotiated all these good deals, yada, yada, yada, yada, actually blew up in his face. And they just like, they tried to hold the line and drive a hard bargain. And the Cavs just kind of undercut them and swooped and got the guy that they wanted.

I think, I don't know where I fall quite yet, but it's not true. tragic, but it's not great. I guess is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And I mean, I guess the results are going to kind of, are going to kind of dictate how we feel about that. I think it's important, too, that they held on. They do have a couple picks that are interesting that I'm glad, that I would be glad that I held on to, except for the protections. I don't know that they would have worked. The Detroit pick and the Washington pick. The Detroit one is top 18 protected and the Washington one is top 14 protected. it's right there on the line where they probably, you know, I don't know if they'll get those picks

but I mean, they're at least good ones. If they're going to be great picks, then they're not going to get them actually. So I don't want to say that. But the argument that Waz was making earlier is not to parrot this back was just that they're so desperate for any kind of a good team that that's what they're deprived of is that that's what they wanted, that if they could have built a second round playoff team at best, that that would have really sustained Knicks fans for a while,

you know, that in the desert a thimble of Woff. Water looks like a pitcher of water, and that's kind of where they are. I guess you could look at it that way. You're just kind of sitting pat for a little bit longer here. I don't know. I don't know. This season, what do we expect the record to be? Where do we expect them to be?

I mean, I don't think they're going to be that great, honestly. Offensively, it's a big question mark. Yeah, they'll probably be around 500. Yeah. Probably be where the calves were last year, playing team. Totally fine team that you feel okay about tuning into on like a Tuesday when there aren't like other marquee games happening. But what do we think about the calves now? Now that we've assessed everything, do you see the calves taking a giant leap forward this season?

Because the other problem that both the calves in the next year are faces, the east is looking mighty stack these days. Well, I detailed it a minute ago. I think some of the personnel kind of issues that they are running up. up against. There are a lot of those dudes. Well, throughout the league. I mean, the league is driven by these like wings who can play make and,

and dominate switches and things and mismatches and things. And there are a lot of those guys in the East like we talked about, like, you know, the butlers, the Tatums, the Scotty's. I think it probably makes the Cavs a little better than a playing team. They're probably, if I had to guess, they're probably hovering in that between a playing team and, you know, a competitive first round. team, I think now. Maybe one more move.

Let's do the hierarchy real quick. Are they better than the heat? That's an interesting one. Yeah, I stopped myself too. I wouldn't say that it's emphatic. I think that one's pretty close. I'd probably give the heat like a 55, 60% kind of, you know, somewhere in that range. Edge on them.

Not a big one, but an edge. Not better than the Celtics, right? Right. Not better than the bucks. Sixers? I would say no. I would expect renewed Hardin and all the moves that they made this offseason. I'm just a real big optimist.

I've had too much time this off season to just convince myself of all these good things happening. Yes. So Sixers, you're saying no. I would lean, I would say no. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that they have an answer for that. Yeah. Nets?

No. Don't think so. Hawks. Maybe. Maybe, potentially. Okay. So we're saying like the Celtics and Bucks are one tier. Maybe the next tier is Miami, Philly, Brooklyn, and maybe the Caves and Hawks or maybe

the Caves and Hawks should be their own tier. Well, really what you're doing here, what you're doing here, JV, is you're just finding a way to run through every team in the East so that your Twitter replies are going to be really fun again. That's what you're doing. You're just going point by point here. Is that what you? Was that your goal?

I love interacting with the fans. So I can't wait. All right, let's wrap it there. That is it for me. You will hear Kyle coming back after this break, but you will also be joined by our friend Waz. So if you notice a big energy shift, that's probably the difference between Waz and I.

But thank you for listening to us. We'll be back right after this. So there's a team, I think, that's kind of lying in the weeds in the West. They have been down in terms of like guys being out. They've had some bad luck lately. And bad luck with some of their most talented players. And that's the Denver Nuggets.

Jamal Murray went down with an ACL injury in 2021. He got some, maybe some people expected him to come back for the playoffs this past year. He chose not to do that. Got a little extra rehab. As somebody who tore their ACL, I can tell you, the rehab, it takes a little time. So a little extra rehab always helps. And Michael Porter, Jr., who is an injury prone guy, has a huge history of it. They got an acceleration from Bones Highland this past year who got a new dog.

I've been following that on Twitter. And they have Aaron Gordon. What do you think about like the Denver Nuggets coming back this year? Do you think that this is a, is this a team we're overlooking? Do you expect them to like surge out of the gate or are they somebody that's going to like round into form around playoff time? How seriously should we be taking the Denver Nuggets? Kyle, you are, man, you are talking to one of the biggest Denver Nuggets fans in the

entire fucking media. I think to me, they're just as good as every other, if reasonably healthy. That's the big caveat. And I know it's a major one when one of your best players has a chronic back issue. Again, I understand the kind of absurdity of saying reasonable health when dealing with something like MPJ's injury history. However, if they are reasonably healthy, I think this is one of the best teams in the NBA and they are on the level of every other contender.

And I'm talking about warriors, clippers, bucks, you name it. I think they are just as good as all of them because they have the two-time defending MVP. Oh, yeah. Okay, right? Like this guy won the MVP two years in a row is, to me, probably the most devastating offensive player in basketball right now. And again, I got a lot of respect for Steph. I got a lot of respect for other guys who could potentially fill that role as most devastating in the league.

But I think Yokic is pretty much proven that he is just a crushing offensive player and what he can do. What can you do with him? You can't do anything with him. Exactly. And what he did last year, both regular season and playoffs, to just drag this, that what was left of that Nuggets team after injury decimation to what he did. Like, whatever. Yokic is Yokic. He's a great player.

He's an all-timer. He's one of my favorites. Love Yokic. You bring MPJ back. You bring Jamal Murray back. To me, that makes the Nuggets offensive unit probably in the top three units in the league.

They can put some crazy offensive line. You know, you got to talk about Celtics defense, their offense, Golden State's offense. Like, those are probably the top. top three units in the league right there, right? And so you have a hyper elite unit. You do, I think, like, it's going to take a little bit of time for the Murray and Yolkich continuity to get back.

But when those two guys are clicking, it's literally like a mind melt when they're on the floor together. I think they're going to be able to, I love, love, love the Kenny acquisition. Contavius, Caldwell, Pope. I love what he does for them defensively. I think they're going to be able to cobble enough defense together. on the perimeter, their offense is going to be elite.

There's not a team that can just come out and say, we're going to stop these guys. It doesn't exist. No. And so I think Denver's going to be incredible when their stuff gets clicking. Yeah, I mean, offensively, they can put some really, really wild lineups out there.

I mean, if you figure out how to balance the defense is going to be the thing. Because if they put their heaviest offensive lineups out there, I mean, you could put like Murray, Bones, MPJ, Gordon Yokic out there, that is a really, really difficult to defend team because you've got spot up guys, you got one dribble pull up guys, you've got great cutters. You got vertical space. You got Yokic who is one of the best ISO player. We talk about his passing, but he's like one of the best ISO players on the planet. You can't guard him one

on one. You can't stop it. Don't even think about it. Yeah. You there might be two guys on the planet who this dude cannot move and just bash and blood. underneath the basket. Like he's putting you under the rim when he puts his shoulder down. It's over for you. And it's not like it takes like 20 different dribbles. It's like two dribbles. And I'm six inches from the hoop, right?

I meaning I'm Jokic. I just like, man, I watch some of his Eurobasket stuff. It's been really fun this summer. It's just the guy is just devastating. He's at the peak of his powers. And Michael Porter Jr. is going to be important. to monitor his comeback from the back injury. I think Murray's going to be fine, bro.

I really do. Yeah. Yeah. And I think he's in a position, too, where he's not, there isn't a lot of pressure for him to be, like, heavily on ball in the short term, like, where, because that can be kind of hard, I think, if you're, like, dribbling at a set defense, if you maybe are not feeling so sure about your, about your legs. And that's a great thing about Murray and MPJ playing together with, with Yokch.

I've said this a thousand times. It's just that, like, he enables. the parts of them that are the most lethal without over-enabling them so that the bad parts, because both of those guys like to get it going. Like, MPJ, I was joke about this, that like, MPJ always thinks he's open. He could be like, he could be like in a straight jacket hanging upside down and think he's open. And he's so huge and so long, like, I understand why he always feels like he's taking a good shot. He can shoot over anybody.

Sure. I mean, he's basically, he's like a clay-esque type guy. like he doesn't need to dribble the basketball. And kind of defensively, he had a tendency to get lost a lot early on in his career. But I think that like he's giving you some like weak side. Rim protection. He obviously has shown us some of that like mid-range, no dribble ISO stuff that's really lethal. I think the Bruce Brown, I think you hit on something important though.

It's like the Bruce Brown and the KCP acquisitions. I think you're going to give them some versatility maybe when they run up against teams where they need to get some stops. Yeah, and again, look, the Warriors ultimately beat them and beat them pretty soundly, I think. However, when you watch that series, there was no reason for the eventual NBA champs to not be able to just kick that team's ass up and down the floor, right? But for the fact that they had Nicola Yokic and they could make it competitive. So you just fill in that color with two borderline All-Stars, bona fide borderline All-Stars. bona fide borderline all-star type of players. I can't wait to watch this team this season.

I really, really hope the health happens for them because I think they're just going to be a dynamite, dynamite team. And I know people who listen to this show regularly are tired of me, slurping the nuggets, but I never get tired of doing it. Slurping the nuggets is quite the expression. That should be the name Weekends with Waska, just re-es-es- brand to slurping the Nuggets. Slurping, slurping with Waz.

Well, you know, but you know it's a good departure from my brand because I don't know if you know this, cop, but I have a brand out there on Reddit and on certain corners of Twitter. I'm a hater. I hate things. You're good at it, though, man. Yeah. Apparently, I hate stuff.

Well, not the Nuggets. Your principle. I love every single thing about the damn nuggets. I love that the Nuggets are like living up to their historical kind of identity, too. with it. The Nuggets have always been this team. When you think of Denver Nugget basketball, you don't think of grind. In like Memphis, I don't think of Gritting Grine. Is Doug Moe averaging a hundred twenty-four points scored a game while giving up $125? Yes, I was literally just researching this the other day. Yeah, they gave like historical bad numbers. Yeah, I think of Alex

English shooting weird angled layups and things like that. I think they're going to be fun. I think they're going to be a really fun team to watch. Before we go, I wanted to ask you, you know, we run things by each other. I run things by you more than the other way around. But I mean, I think that people like to know your takes on, you know, fashion, sneakers. Jersey specifically, I want to ask you about this. So the Rockets came out the other day with a white and green alternate jersey. Did you get a look at this jersey? I did not, I did not get to see this. Let me pull this up. White and green. Oh, okay. I'm look. Okay. I just got here. series of questions here i mean first of all do you how do you feel about like Nike took over the

NBA's contract i guess in 1718 i think adidas had it for a good while there immediately they start spamming the alternate jerseys there are times out there where it's like i'm not as so like crotchety where i'm like who's playing who's on the court i don't like go with those like i i don't need you to wear the traditional colors like every single time we've gone a long way with this how do you feel how do you feel about like how far away how can you justify white and green if you're the rockets maybe there is some historical reason i don't know about but do you think they've kind of gone a little far do you like the the wild alternate scene that we have now so i want to say this uh when adidas had it everybody a lot there was a lot of complaining i don't know if you remember

this kyle but like they were getting killed all the time on the internet how bad a job they were doing with the jerseys Nike gets it And everybody's like, oh, finally, the American leaders in design and innovation. And these guys are the ones. They're the best. They're like, as far as American brands go, it's like Coca-Cola, Nike, Apple. Yeah. Like, literally.

Like, literally Nike is that freaking revered and respected, right? And so everybody just assumed that Nike was going to knock this thing out the park and then would happened, Kyle. They didn't. Which I think speaks to how hard it is to get this right. I don't think this is like some... Where were your nitpicks? I'm curious. What did you think that they really whiffed on? I just personally don't like, I don't like the actual jersey design itself a lot of times, especially when they first got it. I thought the shoulders were a little bit too skinny. I also kind of hated what they were doing with college jerseys. Like, I just didn't like the actual design of the jersey, not the, you know, the sort of color scheming of it. I just didn't like the actual

design, but I think they're getting better at that. And, you know, this Rockets thing, I don't, like, it's a Seattle Supersonics knockoff. There's just no two ways about it. But if you're a Rockets fan, I don't see why you would have a problem wearing this. It looks nice. I don't, like, this is a tridentry color way. And Jalen Green in this, um, and, and, these promo picks are wearing LeBron St. Vincent, St. Mary's, T-Mex? Did you see that? Hold on. I was definitely.

Like the Adidas, like the superstar? Yeah, the Adidas joints. San Diego. Okay. It says, oh, the San Diego expansion team in 60s. So this is a real history, Kyle. This is from the San Diego Rockets. Yes.

So maybe we made a fool of ourselves. I mean, I really enjoyed when they went to the old school, like not just the swoosh thing. But yeah, if you look, if you look it through, it looks like, it looks like, yeah, Jalen Green has on the T-Mac, St. Vincent, St. Mary's, which is a sick choice by him. I like that. That's a good, that's a good move there from him. In general, I think it's just interesting that they've, this culture they've created of like us arguing over, arguing over the alternates and things like that. And it's fun to see all the different. I'm sure, you know, it's another way for them to continue to sell the same jersey 10 different ways, 10 different times.

But they'll roll another thing that they do. I think that's interesting is, they'll roll out an ordinary jersey from like the early 2000s and people will go wild. Like it's great. Like the Wizards ones, things like that. No, no, no. I want to get some more from you because the heat one, I think, is phenomenal. Yeah. From the Alonzo Morning, Tim Hardaway, Thunder Dan Marley, P.J. Brown era.

A very hated team in New York at the time, obviously, the Pat Riley. Sean Leonard. The Pat Riley, Stan Van Gundy, He was a killer on NBA Live 06 for Sean Leonard. He had the little icon. He never missed. Anyway, yeah, that team hated in New York. Always, always wet in threes.

But that judge, I particularly liked about that team was Jamal Mashburn. Because, again, one of the last to the Mohicans, New York City legends, Cardinal Hayes. You're sucking up to me now? Oh, yes. UK. To be honest, because his UK reign kind of happened as I was becoming a sentient basketball. basketball fan. I missed him at UK. So I never really think of him as a UK guy. I think of him as somebody that like my freaking high school basketball coach was always just like, oh, you should have seen

Jamal Mashburn. We surely paid him to come here. I don't know. I don't know how that happened. Kentucky was terrible when they got him, but I'm with you. I was kind of like coming online as a fan then. I was kind of paying attention. Not really. But I mean, yeah, he's he was a great NBA player too. People forget. I think he would have been a dominant and not dominant, but he would have been a crazy valuable NBA player now. They stick him at the four. He'd be able to ball handle, hold up against both fours and threes can shoot it. Just an incredible, incredible player. So I saw the heat jersey like a day or two ago. And I was like, that's pretty clean. That's dope. I didn't realize that the Pistons' teal joint was a controversial jersey.

I thought everybody... Where did you fall on that? I liked the jersey. But I was like into the Grant Hill and Fila and Sprite and all the propaganda that, you know, we got fed commercially for Grant Hill. I was, I bought in hook, line, and sinker to the freaking Grant Hill thing. I was all in on board. So, like, I associate that jersey with that time in Grant Hill's career where he was literally, him and Petty Hardaway were the first next Jordan. When, like, Mike retired, it was this idea that, like, the next person in the league that's

going to be dominant and all that. that is Grant Hill. And stack. You know, like he really had that mantle. And so, like, as a cultural figure, I always associate positively that Detroit Pistons jersey with Grant Hill. So I have positive feelings towards it. And other people are just like, this is one of the worst jerseys in the history of life.

I'd love to get your take on it, Kyle. It's an age range thing, man. Because if you saw the people that were complaining, I think people who, you and I were in the sweet spot when you were describing, you know, Matt, and like when you were paying attention. We grew up in the slam, like the slam hard magazine era, which is when we get these covers selling these next generation of stars. And so we weren't offended by the fact that the bad boy Pistons brand was being rebranded.

It didn't bother me. I have a pair of the teal's piston shorts. I think they're awesome. I mean, they look amazing. I think anybody that you hear complaining about it most likely is like just a little, like a generation past us or the people who really hate it. So I think the number one critique, which is my favorite, is the horse, which I'm like, isn't that obvious? It's like Detroit, Ford, Pistons, horsepower. Yeah. It doesn't seem complicated. It was obvious. Am I wrong in that car?

Well, you got to have some kind of visualization. I mean, if we put like literal pistons on the jersey. I mean, that's kind of cool, but I don't, we could have a guy with, like, pullies, like, walking out there and, like, he has actual pistons going up and down. I just think it's nice to have, like, a sentient creature as your, as your logo. I don't know. Of course, the Miami Heat, you know, they're an exception, you know, I guess. You start getting into, like, things in the abstract, like thunder and heat. I don't know. I don't necessarily have a problem with all that stuff. But the Heat jerseys, like you were talking about, I think that's one of the, like, the early, like, uh, expansion.

in heat jerseys. They're just, they're just nice. It's beautiful with the heat, with the fire coming out of the tea. Like, that is, that's incredible. My wife's a designer and she doesn't care about any of it. But she has commented to me before. She's like, that's like the perfect logo in the NBA.

And I'm like, yeah, the ball going in the net and it's on fire. Yeah, it's, that's an incredible. It is. Incredible logo. And again, like, I don't understand how you get mad at the horse when the sons have a gorilla for a mascot. You know what I'm saying? Like, at least there's, at least there's a freaking, there's some synergy there.

At least we can, that we can identify, like, what the hell does the gorilla have to do with the suns? Like, you know. Somebody give me the history lesson on that one. I don't know. I don't understand. You know what I mean? That's why I'm just like, you know, certain things is just two Americas, as my man, Beaumani Jones would say. Well, I'm just like, I thought everybody understood that the teal pistons is fired.

the original Grizzlies join his fire. It's all fire. I don't know where people get that. And, you know, I was in a group chat, and a homie of mine was like, can't take any NBA team seriously that wears teal. It's just unbecoming. It's not a serious color.

And then he started running off the Grizzlies. They got expansion team had the freaking move. The Charlotte Hornets, historically unsirious franchise. The Pistons, like post-bad boys era or whatever. They're coming. though, man. Yeah, you talk about the Grizzlies. I was always a fan of those jerseys. But like, there was, there was nothing like that era, like the Grizzlies Raptors thing. When you were like

12 and under, that was it. We really lit up in, you could see our overlap of interest here. We kind of went to town on that. But anyway, Waz, it was good to see you, man. Anything else you want to add before we cut out? Um, nah, man, I'm just, I'm enjoying the final days before, you know, the deluge, of NBA players being in the greatest shape of their life coming into training camp. Every team plans to play with pace this year, Kyle. I don't know if you've ever heard that before. Every basketball team on Earth says that before the season. We're going to play faster.

Right. And so I'm good. I'm chilling until training camp opens up, which is like about four weeks from now. So that's going to happen really quickly. I'm going to enjoy college football starting back up, getting into the NFL. I'm watching the U.S. Open, Serena coming back. I am absolutely obsessed with the start of the Premier League because I don't know if you know,

but I'm a man city supporter. And Erling Halande might be the best athlete that I have seen since LeBron James. I swear to God. Whoa. Yeah, since I'm talking about since LeBron James in 2002, This is the most exciting professional athlete I've seen. I swear to God.

And so I'm really enjoying that. So, yeah, I'm ready for the NBA to be back, but I'm also enjoying everything else in the sports world. Yeah, man. I don't know much about Premier League, but I do follow your tweets. I'm like, what is Watts talking about? I just kind of assume it's soccer.

Dude, okay. So we can really end on this. NBA Twitter is fun and sometimes can be like overly just, dramatic and miserable. I'm not going to lie to you. Like some people on NBA Twitter are just so miserable, constantly browbeating,

constantly on some moral superiority, constantly on some, well, actually, blah, blah, blah. Soccer Twitter is just all snark and enthusiasm, which just speaks directly to my heart. And so I really, really enjoy

the little corner of EPL, league a bonus league of Twitter that I have found myself. And so yeah, I'm really happy about it. Well, I'm glad that you found your people. I'm glad. Hopefully that your bubble doesn't burst and you like maybe hit another layer of Twitter that's more cynical.

I hope you stay in the in the oblivious, maybe even naive part of Twitter. I hope that you stay away from the analytics people. And I hope you stay happy. Why, as you look healthy, you sound healthy. It's good to see. It's good to talk NBA with you today. Appreciate you, bro. Always good to catch up.