The Ringer NBA Show - Don’t Count the Nuggets Out, Hayward’s Importance, and Awards Voting Hysteria | The Mismatch

Episode Date: September 22, 2020

Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor cover the Lakers-Nuggets Western Conference finals (1:06), the importance of Gordon Hayward to the Celtics’ success against the Heat (25:07), and other stories from around the league, including the potential G League restart reported by Shams Charania (40:21) and the controversy around awards voting this season (47:10). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Mismatch is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken original logger is made with pure malt in their famous A-Yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season all-the-time kind of beer. The Heat Celtic series is heating up. The best way to enjoy that is with an ice-cold Heineken. Pick up a pack or have it delivered today and drink responsibly. Today's episode is also supported by the FX original series Fargo. Family is complicated.

The crime is organized. The all-new Fargo takes you to 1950s, Kansas City, where two criminal syndicates have struck an uneasy truce as they both fight for their peace of the American dream. The new installment of Fargo starring Chris Rock and Jason Swartzman premieres with back-to-back episodes September 27th at 9 p.m. on FX and streams next day, FX on Hulu. Welcome to The Ringer MBA show.

I'm Chris Vernon. Join me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com. is Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connorne, it's Tuesday. What up? It is, and we have an Western Conference Finals and an Easter Conference Finals, both going on as we speak, and there's been quite the delay. It has been very odd for the last couple of days because we were so used to having basketball for a long time every single day. at worst every other day, but now we have had a break and they will resume play tonight. Let's start with the West Finals because that's one that is going to resume play tonight. It is 2 O Lakers.

Game two was much different than game one. And I do think that without being prisoner of the moment, one that we will remember for a very, very long time, maybe forever, honestly, in terms of playoff moments. but your biggest takeaways from what we have seen in the West finals so far, big picture and also what you were left thinking about after game two. I mean, big picture. It's really what we talked about last Friday. And that's about Biggs.

I wrote about it on the ringer after that game. Justin Verrier and I messaged each other after the game when 80 and Yokic combined the score the final 22 points of that game going tow to know. And we're like, yeah, let's do that piece instead of, you know, reporting it out or waiting for it because it's like that you know summed up everything we talked about for anybody you listen to a friday show about the way the big man has changed the way big man value has changed and it was just so cool to see that i mean with this denver team yokech is a special player man he he really is he is a special guy with a teammate and jemal

marie both so young the nuggets aren't going to win the series But this team is going to be around with those two guys for a long, long time. This is a hard-nosed group of guys with Yokic, who is maybe second best big in the league behind AD. I mean, third best, if you want to consider Yonis a big as well. And with Jamal Mari, he keeps getting better and better. And I can't help but look at that team and feel like they could be a championship team in the coming years with some development from them, Michael Porter, and maybe with one or two other moves, this team's not far off,

are they, Chris? Well, Kev, you've got two guys. I think they're 24 and 22, so they are very young in their careers still. They also, and this is what you always hope when you are drafting, they fit perfectly together.

So many times you can get immensely talented people, and we juxtapose this versus like Philly. They've got two unbelievable all-star caliber players and the fit is not right. Like it's just not right with Embed and Simmons. And there's a lot of figuring out that has to do. But when you've got two elite level players that fit together perfectly,

then now it's just a build around them situation, right? You know here's my, here at very worst, I've got two core players, one on the perimeter, one that can play inside. They like each other. they fit together perfectly. Now I just got to build out the rest around them some way somehow. And I think the other thing, Kev, about, you know, noticing how unbelievable Yokic is,

is beyond the bigs being such a big deal, it still has always been a situation where down the stretch, perimeter guys are the ones that get it done. And perimeter guys are the ones that get it done primarily because they got the ball in their hands, right? And it is a clear route and it is a make a move, get to the basket or take a step back three or whatever it may be. And that has been the case throughout history, honestly. I mean, very rarely have you seen game on the line and or crunch time. And the idea is get the ball to your big guy and he's going to be able to create his own shot or get you home. And he's that. You know, I mean, I think that's even.

right now it is the issue with Janice, which is, can I just throw you the ball and you go get me a bucket? That is so uncommon for a big guy, for a big guy to just be like, hey, I can throw this guy the ball and he can get me a bucket. And it's true of Yokic and obviously it's true of Davis too. And interestingly enough, Denver, they fed him every single time down the stretch. The Lakers, they got lucky that Jamal Murray blocked that shot out of bounds

because the story of that game, beyond LeBron not having a great second half, which is always a story, is their last three shots in that game would have been taken by Cotavius Colwell Pope, Alex Caruso, and Danny Green. And I'm all for, hey, well, Steve Kerr made a big shot and Robert Ory made big shots and whatever. Like, no, we're down the stretch of a game. You saw Denver got the ball to their guy. The fact that they had not gotten the ball to Anthony Davis in those last couple of possessions was incredibly puzzling to me.

Until the three. Yeah. We're at that mode now where it's like you can act. These are big guys that you can throw the ball to with the game on the line and they can get a shot, which that is just, that's like, you, Utah, I saw you the other night about how it's like, it's freaky to watch Anthony Davis and like, guys just don't do this. Well, same goes with Yokic. Guys just don't do this.

And with AD, I mean, he hit that step back three off the dribble. He obviously hit that three-pointer to win the game coming off a screen and just off movement looking like a reddick, you know, coming off movement. That is a hard shot to make, man. And for there's so few big guys in league history, we have a couple of them in the league, you know, right now that can do that, you know, including Carl Anthony Towns who can shoot off the dribble. He's just not, hasn't won yet. Dirk Novitsky, I mean, other bigs as well in recent years. But what we're seeing from AD, man, even in that third quarter, some of the offense that he gave the Lakers when they needed it, what a player, man. And it feels like he is taking that leap right now from like great player to somebody who is now on a track towards like all time status.

If he wins a championship, especially if he does it in the manner in which he has, like look, look, he. LeBron admitted that he leaned on AD in that second half. AD has become, he's almost transitioning from that guy who can sometimes take control now at the biggest stage. And considering how incredible he is on the defensive end of the floor, besides that play when Yokic just backed him down with ease. To me, that was more a testament to Yokic's greatness. Of course it is.

And his versatility with his strength and fluidity and ability to score with finesse or power more so than any limitations from AD. He was late in the game. And AD was doing plenty of other great stuff anyway. But besides that, I mean, what a elite two-way presence. This has been very common of big guys throughout the years. I do think part of it, and I'm no psychology major, but when you're the big guy, there's not as many times that you really have the chip on your shoulder

in terms of the I'm proving everybody wrong. and you develop that tenacity, that fierceness that everybody wishes you had, right? That you're the killer instinct, you know, when they were busting up AD about that. But I've seen that over the years so many different times. You mentioned towns. It was the same, the same went for Powell Gasol, the same went for Chris Bosch, the same goes for Joelle Embed many times, where people say, why didn't he just do that all the time?

And you saw after the game, Charles Barkley brought that up. to him and he said, you know, sometimes I'm feeling out the game. Sometimes I feel like I'm thinking too much. But these guys have been on top of me, both LeBron and Rondo, you know, telling me, hey, we need you to be that guy. You can take over these games. We need you to take over these games. I just think that it's not, it's not necessarily natural for them. And I don't think that that is a massive demerit because there's something that's very, very common about that. Big guys are rarely wired to be the give me the ball. I'm going to go win this game.

Give me the damn ball. I'm the killer on this team. Yokic is though. Yokic is though. It feels like nobody has to like prod him to be mega aggressive down the stretch. And I don't, like I said, I don't knock Davis for being like that. I think at some point we got to look and say there's a pretty common theme about a lot of guys, especially like face-up fours and the elite level,

Hall of Fame level players that I think probably because they are always bigger than everybody their whole life. You know, and I know Davis started off as a guard. But for a long time, it's like I can do what I want to do when I want to do it. Whereas there's a prove me wrong kind of sensibility or prove you wrong kind of sensibility, I think maybe more so with perimeter players.

I don't know because they have to fight they have to fight for everything you know when you're big you're on teams right when you're when you're when you're perimeter guy you got to fight when you say perimeter guys

I'm assuming you probably mean like 6-2 and under yeah more than more not probably not even like the 6 3 6 4 6 5 as much but and you do see and look it it can be true

of all kinds of guys that are immensely talented when you are immensely talented you team up immensely talented and that kind of instinct, that's the superstars in the league. Those are the greatest players of all time. And people sit there and wonder. And I do think AD obviously has got that aggression in him.

Pal Gasol, it had to be brought out by Kobe Bryant, but he had big moments on big stages. I don't know. But the Yokic thing, like, he's just give me the ball. And I want this moment. and boy, if they didn't almost flip that. I mean, it's a whole different conversation for 48 hours, and it is a whole different series if AD doesn't hit that shot, isn't it? Yeah, that's for sure.

Undoubtedly is, and despite the fact that they lost it or down 2-0, is there anything to take from these first two games to make you feel like maybe Denver can push this to 6 instead of it looking like a 4-0 or 5-0? Okay, yes. Yes, because this is why. They're down 16 again. They're down in this game. And I just saw them do it with the Clippers.

I saw them do it with Utah before that. And so I'm Mr. Zero percent. I ain't counting these dudes out. You know what I mean? They fight, Kevin. They really do. They fight. And all it takes is one game.

Now, obviously, if they lose tonight, they're probably dead to rights. Okay, let's be honest. But if they come back, they're in the situation Boston's in. Does anybody feel like Boston's dead? right now? No. And you could look back and you could say, hey, we lost that game on a buzzer beater and we won this last one.

We're right there. And then they start doing the whole over the last six quarters, Denver's outscored, right? I mean, you could just feel it, right? Like, so I wouldn't count them out, but I would say this. They're like a six and a half point underdog tonight. Tonight is 100% must win. I don't care how many times they've come back. they have to win this game to get back in that series for sure.

No doubt about it. I mean, just like Boston had to win their game three in order to get back into that. I mean, I hope someday we'll see a 3-0 comeback in our lifetime. I would love to see that more than anything else, getting to experience that, you know,

when I was 14 years old as a Red Sox fan, when they came back, one four in a row against the Yankees, then won four in a round to win the World Series. Sorry to bring that up, Chris. But like, you know, getting to experience that was, it makes you believe.

And I hope we see that sometime in our lifetime. But I don't see a LeBron James, an AD-led team being that team that ends up blowing a 3-0 lead. So yes, Denver has to win tonight. Yeah, I mean, I'm actually glad you brought that up because I, look, I don't know if that's the right message to send that your entire team. I do think somebody can come back from a 3-0 deficit, but I think the whole team needs to be on steroids. so you're not yeah i'm not letting you celebrate that i'm not letting you celebrate that the whole team whole team's being left out of the hall of fame that ain't history to me you know it's funny i think i used to when it comes to steroids in baseball when that stuff used to first

break like the mueller report and all that at the time i was like this is you know it's wrong you know i don't support it barry bonds you know he's a cheater but like i look back at that error in the 90s and the early 2000s to mid-2000s. And I'm like, that was just the error, man. I mean, like it or not, like it or not, it was an important time for baseball with Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire having the home run race that they had to really save the game. My parents, my parents lived in St. Louis still.

I have three massive boxes filled with every single memento from the McGuire 70 home run year. Wow. And it is beyond worthless. Yeah. I mean, I'm talking about she saved all the newspapers. Wow. She saved all the bobbleheads, all the t-shirts, everything.

I mean, and number one, that record's broken. Number two, it's been like defamed, you know. Like it's like nothing, it's just a box of odd memories, honestly. So look, I stand on no moral high ground here as someone with three boxes filled of Mark McGuire home run record. It's so funny. It's a great time for baseball, man. It was a fun time to be a baseball fan.

One day. One day is going to be in my garage sale. Anyways, back to the Lakers and the Nuggets. You know, I feel like they were down 16 in this game, and it was the same nuggets that we've gotten used to in these playoffs, which is they just keep playing. They just keep playing. You don't ever see them like their energy gets,

terrible and their heads are down. And I thought, you know, sometimes, many times, a box score doesn't tell the value of the player on the court. And didn't you feel like PJ Dozier just infused them with like this FU energy? Like, I'm going to try to block everything at the rim. I'm going to the basket. And I know I wish he would have made more free throws that he did. But they went to a guy that hadn't even played a.

And he was, like, making plays for them. And I just thought, like, really raising the collective energy of that entire team. And so they got guys that they can even go to off that bench when they need, like, a pick me up. And Dozier was that guy in the last game. I just, they just, I'm not, I'm not counting that team out anymore. And especially in a game like tonight, that's must win, Kev. Like, your backs are against the wall. And there is just nothing you can do.

psychologically to make you, you can't fake being desperate, you know? And that's a desperate team going into tonight. And the Lakers just aren't. You know, you felt this when, I don't know if you were watching before the game, they're talking about Duncan Robinson or they were talking to Duncan Robinson. There's a weird interview because he was like on a, he was on like an exercise ball and he was doing all this. You see that? That interview was something else.

It's just weird. Rachel Nichols. He was working out ahead of the game. They had a camera following him. And I cannot do that. How can you work out like that? I'd be like, I know, Rachel.

And they were talking to them about like, you know, the feeling going into this game. You know you're going up against a desperate team, whatever. And he's like, you know, we just have to treat it like we do every other game, which this is a must win for us. And it's just not. You can't fake it, right? It's not a must win for you. And so. I mean, they're all must wins in the playoffs.

It depends on your own individual mindset. that if you're if you're spitting out like coaches cliches or if you actually believe it. Like if you believe it, you believe it. You know, I mean, look,

much like we did with the Celtics, I would expect a grand slam effort out of the, out of Denver. I mean, you saw that and we're going to pivot to the Celtics here in a minute, but you saw that with them. Like, you can't fake desperate and the Nuggets are going to be a super desperate team tonight.

And, you know, look, they're getting it from. them, they're best guys, you know, and especially Yokic being able to have the games that he is having, that was the big trick. If he was going to struggle during this series, it was going to be a long road to ho, as they say, for them.

But he's been great, you know, and as long as he's great, that whole team can function. And he's been great, you know, against a pretty good front court. Yeah. You know, at the highest level on the biggest stage. It says a lot about who he is as a player and what he can become at only 25. right now. And Kev, they've gotten two amazing, not good, amazing AD performances. Yeah. Two. So, I mean,

what happens if they don't? I mean, it's like they need him to be that great. They really do because we kept searching for that who's the third guy. I mean, they've got some guys that can make some plays every once in a while, but they still don't have that like surefire. We didn't know who was going to step up. It's like Rondo is the, he's honestly like the third guy right now for them. I kind of thought maybe Kuzma would show up.

I mean, I would expect that if the Lakers make the finals, which, you know, they probably will, that there will be like a Kuzma game. There'll be a game he goes off for 28, 30 plus points maybe, you know. He can have nights like that. And that's what makes him, you know, we often talk about, you know, microwave scores off the bench as guards. you know, your Lou Williams types, your Jamal Crawford types, but a spark plug off the bench can also be a Ford

in the mold of Kyle Kuzma. And he's going to have a lot of eight point games, 10 point games, 12 point games, but then he'll have a 28 point game, then he'll have a 32 point game, then another 14, then another 10. But that type of guy can help win you a playoff game or multiple playoff games.

And I would expect he'll have one of those in the coming weeks. He's due for one, it feels like, isn't he? When's the last time he scored 20 plus points? I don't think he has in the playoff. playoffs yet. I think he said an 18 point game, but not a 20 yet. I think this, getting him into a rhythm, you know, and I again,

it may not happen until the East Finals, whatever, but he's better than Danny Green. Danny Green's not getting you 20-something in any of these games, and you've got a guy that could. I think we agree. He could. Playing off of LeBron and AD, if you started him

and let him get in the flow and have like real and big minutes, I mean, I don't, Look, he's playing under Danny Green and Pope, and I get it. They're both veterans. Coaches always trust veterans, especially in big games. But in terms of talent level and could I see him having a huge game, like he is the one that I could foresee having the 20 plus game,

much more so than Danny Green or Contavia's Colwell Pope, you know, in terms of like maybe even over a couple of, game stretch, he could really play off of them. And I'm kind of surprised, I'm surprised he doesn't start, honestly. It depends on what the game demands, though. I mean, for the Lakers facing the Nuggets, they need more, you know, guards slash wing defense from, you know, Caruso, Green, Caldwell, Pope, Rondo, for that matter, would this type of match up more so than Kuzma to elevate his play? Maybe things would be different if it's Boston, perhaps, with all of their wings. Things would be different if it's Miami in terms of what they need on the defensive end of the floor.

But yeah, Kuzma's due. He's due for a big game. You think they get back in it? I think they did. I pick the Lakers to win it in a five. I just mean extend to this. So this would be the one you think they get. Or maybe they get the one. I think this is the one that they would have to get.

Yeah. For sure. I mean, look, they're up against it. Obviously, L.A. is playing fantastic. But you've got, they've had some days off. AD has been absolutely unbelievable. You just need him to not be unbelievable in one of these games. And obviously have yogurt still remain.

They were right there, man. They had that game. It took a seven footer hitting a jumper on a catch and shoot. Yeah. In order to knock them off. So I'm not writing them off yet. I'm not writing them off yet. You can write them off after everything we've seen this postseason.

that's for sure. Yeah, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to pivot to that Eastern Conference finals which got a lot more interesting over the weekend. Today's episode of the mismatch is brought to you by Heineken.

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Today's episode is also supported by the FX original series Fargo. Family is complicated. Crime is organized with a brand-new cat. featuring Chris Rock and Jason Swartzman, FX Emmy and Golden Globe winning series from creator Noah Hawley returns with an all-new installment that explores the complexities of immigration, assimilation, power, and what it means to pursue the American dream. Set in 1950s, Kansas City, the new installment of Fargo tells the original tale of two criminal syndicates that control an alternate economy of exploitation, corruption, and drugs striking and unusual peace.

To cement their truce, the head. of the black crime family and Italian mafia agree to a unique gesture of good faith, the trading of their youngest sons. But will the agreement last as tension between the two warring families escalates? Fargo premieres with back-to-back episodes September 27 at 9 p.m. on FX and streams next day FX on Hulu. And now back to the mismatch. All right, Kev, so Boston had Marcus Smart yelling in the locker room.

We had talked right after that game last. Thursday and said, we liked it. We liked the idea of them showing a lot of fight. And I thought that this could reap benefits. And not only that, they got the surge of getting Gordon Hayward back in the lineup and they were able to win game three. And so now that series is two one. I don't know about you, but when I was talking earlier about how you can't fake desperate, Boston, like, you just saw a team that seemed to be the aggressor, seemed to be really communicating every time they went down on the defensive end. They were yelling out to each other.

Jalen Brown's jumping in what appeared to be every passing lane. And they just felt so much more aggressive and confident in that game. Against the team that I thought in the first two games was the aggressive, confident team, you know, the Miami Heat. I saw a different Boston team in game three than I had seen in the first two. Marcus Smart talked yesterday on Monday during his media availability, and he said that conversation in the locker room was electrifying. He said, we weren't supposed to be happy down 2-0.

And he said the way I responded and the way we responded shows that we're closer than ever. And that is really, you know, like a good follow-up of what we talked about in terms of You need that. You need that push when things aren't going right. You need that voice in that locker room to try to get things straight. And what we did see in Game 3 was a Celtics team that was far more engaged on both ends of the floor. And a team that needs to carry that mindset throughout the rest of the series, because you better bet that Miami and Eric Spolstra and that coaching staff are going to come back with some type of adjustments in order to counter what Boston did,

putting smart on Gore and Drogich. putting, you know, Kemba Walker on Jay Crotter, which created cross matches and transition going the other way, attacking Duncan Robinson at will, especially early in that game. They did so many different things in that game that now Miami's going to respond. And Boston's also going to have to be prepared for what those responses might be. And that's what makes the playoffs from a tactical point of view so fun to watch, especially with two really good coaches in Spoe and Stevens. So Boston, like, there's going to be changes that happen around you,

but you need to retain that mindset in order to beat a team like Miami that always plays like that. Well, and we talked about, and you said you thought you had underrated the loss of Gordon Hayward after watching the first two games. You know, sometimes it's not just the injury. It's the injury versus the drop-off, right? And if the drop-off is extreme versus, okay, you can. and you're able to hold water on this, then obviously the outcome is undesirable.

And with Hayward, it's the difference between them going to their bench and bringing Gordon Hayward off first or Brad Wanamaker off first. And so it is extreme, right? Like, I mean, I think it's like, it's kind of like we just saw with the Giants, not to move over to the NFL too much,

but we just saw it's like, okay, Sequan Barkley's out. Okay, well, now we're going to play Wayne Galman or Dionne Lewis, it's like, oh, God, right? For them, like it's not like they just have somebody they can plug in. And Boston, when you spend so much money on fantastic players, then your bench is going to be light. And so you just saw it the other night. When they go to their bench and the guy they bring off their bench

is somebody that absolutely could be a starter on the team, well, that's a whole different world. And you saw them with those four guys out there. And I can be honest, I thought he looked fine. I did not think, like, if you would not have told me Gordon Hayward was coming off of, you know, an injury that had kept him out for a good long while,

I would not have noticed, would you? No, I thought he would have had no idea. I mean, you couldn't look at the box score necessarily and feel how great he played. But watching the game, it was apparent how great of a performance that he had, facilitating the ball, you know, always in the right place in the defensive end of the court, making quick decisions.

He really helped against the zone with his passing ability. I mean, he's a difference maker, man. Like I said last week, I feel like I underrated the loss. And seeing him back shows his importance in this series, just having that extra guy who can do something for you off the dribble. It's also an extra guy that could shoot over or between that zone and get in the seams. It is also a guy that just stretches the court even more.

He has to be honored all the way out to wherever he is standing. Therefore, you are creating more space for not good, elite level one-on-one players in Tatum and Kemba. And then a really good one in Brown. Brown could obviously get his dribbling's gotten much better. His dribbling's gotten much better. Like he can go and get his own shot, right, without just being a slasher. or a catch and shoot. He can get his own shot.

But those other two, the more space you can create for Kemba and Tatum, the better. And Hayward obviously does that by having to be honored even 30 feet away from the basket. For sure.

And with Boston, we saw last week, I believe it was game two. Boston ran out a lineup with Tatum, Brown, Walker, smart, and Wanamaker for a short stint.

And I remember seeing that thinking to myself, they're going to play this with Hayward instead of Watermaker. And they did. They put it out there and it like shredded the Miami heat with their best five players on the court going small. I wonder how much we see that again. And if they do do it again, how does Miami respond and try to make them pay for their small size in the court with Bamatabio? Because I feel like there's ways to try to exploit that on for the, when you're on office, offense if you're in Miami and when Boston's on defense. But like when you have five guys in the

court, smart who defends bigger than he is, Tatum, who is not small by any means with his size and length, you know, and then some big wings and Brown and Hayward with Kemba at point guard. That's, it's small. You don't have a traditional big out there. You don't have Daniel Tyson or Robert Williams, but it's a versatile team that all five of them can attack. And I would imagine that we're going to see that again from the Southics. They played it for seven minutes in game three. First time we've seen it since the regular season when they did it for only 18 minutes throughout the entire year. If Boston brings that back again, I look forward to seeing what Miami and Spelster is ready to do in order to try to fight what they were able to do in game three, which was really do whatever they want, especially in the defensive end with their switching and really the energy that they brought swarming off the ball.

I wonder what Miami's plan is there. Well, and there was super, there were plays down that stretch where it looked like Miami was going to fight all the way back possibly. And they were getting the stops and they were getting the buckets. And I think it was Kemba that hit the huge three that put them up eight. I mean, they, you know, Boston was forced to make huge plays to, you know, like that, that team just kept, it felt like Miami.

it felt the whole game Boston was in control and Miami just kept on rising from the dead, right? Like you leave them and they make you make the plays to win the game. And that was even in that one where you knew that Boston was going to be so desperate. But now we end up having this outstanding matchup again. You know, I wondered,

is there any possible way this could live up to Celtics Raptors? And it's on track to, you know what I mean? And I don't know how you feel. Kiv, after watching so much basketball of these other teams, the Heat, the Raptors, and the Celtics, I'm not sure I know that the heat were the ones that disposed of Milwaukee. I'm not so sure that I don't believe. In fact, I think I do believe that Boston and Toronto would have beaten them too. That in retrospect, that Milwaukee team who got handled so much by Miami, they might have lost

all three of those. They might end up being the fourth best of those teams. Seriously, by the time the bubble and the playoffs were going on, I have much more impressed with those teams than I ever was Milwaukee, honestly. I mean, for what it's worth,

I mean, the way Toronto beat Milwaukee last year, they showed the blueprint, the Yonis rules of what Miami did this year, pretty similar with their type of defense. And with Boston, they're not quite as equipped. They don't have that,

They use Shemi-Ojolay in that Yana stopper role. They don't have a BAM at a bio to do that like Miami does. But Boston maybe could have followed that template and also presented problems with their depth of really good wings and bleed ball handlers to make things hard on Milwaukee. I think it would have been a closer series for the Bucks if they had faced Toronto or Boston just because of the way those teams match up. Miami is perfectly built to beat the Bucks, which they did. the Raptors and Celtics would have made it a really tough series, that's for sure. That's why, like, we talked about it for months, dude. The East is really, really, really good and it wasn't going to be some cakewalk for the Bucks,

nor is it for the Raptors losing last round, nor is it for the Celtics or the Heat. This is probably going to go deep, six or seven games. Yeah, well, like the top four. It got light after that. Oh, yeah, of course. After that, it does. No doubt. Because Philly was such a disappointment.

Philly was such a disappointment, and they didn't have Simmons, so that's fair. And the Pacers didn't have subonis. So maybe those teams. They're still not on the same level. That's true. But they might have been more competitive and certainly we would have a higher opinion of them. For sure. No doubt about that.

If they had their guys. Whereas, you know, in the West, I mean, look, at the beginning of all this, we didn't, we didn't think nearly as highly of Denver. Nobody did. nobody did like their odds were long shot and their odds were getting worse when they were in a blood war with uh with utah without bogdanovich and then they turned around and they're able to beat the clippers and so there's still there's still the how are we in this moment team yeah um and that's why i'm not i'm done counting them out i'm done i buried them i buried them two series in a row i'm done

I've never bet against the Nuggets again whereas you didn't feel so great about the Celtics pick after the first two games now that they've gotten Hayward back now that they are only you know

they're within a game of tying up this series you feel better about it I mean it's still tough I mean they still got to win three out of the next four games I mean I think you could also look at it and say you know

despite their point poor effort in game two. They also went to overtime in game one, a very winnable game for them. In an alternate universe, they're up to one in the series. Maybe in some alternate basketball universes, they're up three. You know, maybe they play with better effort in that game two. So they've had three, three good games overall, you know, all things considered despite the effort in game two. So I wouldn't say after game two, after game two when we talked, it was really about just like, how do you play with that level of effort? and they got the spark that they needed.

And if they continue playing like that, I feel good about my pick having them in six games. It's probably hard to win four out of five in a row in order to do that after going down in the series. But I think it's possible. Yeah. And to your point, I mean,

if we just whittle it down to a play, it's Jason Tatum trying to tomahawk a dunk. Yeah, I'm out of bio. I mean, exactly. If it goes, if he goes and he gets an and one,

if the block's not there, and he gets fouled and he dunks on him, it's a different world. You know what I mean? I mean, and so those are coming down. And honestly, we talked about that in reference to the West.

You're a, I mean, Yokic is being celebrated as the hero of all heroes. People are debating whether he's a top five player in the NBA. People are saying, what the hell's wrong with LeBron? Why did he do nothing in that second half? I mean,

like, we know the way the narratives, uh, work on all of this. And so you're, you're always one shot away from everything being good or everything being bad. And for right now, it looks like Denver's in an impossible spot.

But again, you got to remember, they're a playaway from that thing being tied and us thinking, hey, this one could be a really long series to the point where people are like, oh, this is going to be a sweep now. Like,

I don't know about that. We'll see. We'll see. I picked Lakers in five. I'm not straying from that. Not straying from that. I tell you this, if we say the Nuggets get one, you don't want to be up 3-1 on Nuggets. Let me tell you something.

You better amend that pick if it's 3-1. Do not bank against that team, 3-1. We're going to take a quick break, and then we got some stories to get through some news that has come out since Kevin and I last spoke. Today's episode is also brought to you by Square. You may know Square is that little white card reader that helps you take payments, but, and here's the thing most people don't know, Square has so many more tools to help your business, especially right now if you're looking for new ways to sell. To get your business online, Square has a free online store with pickup, delivery, and shipping, and a free customer booking website that's perfect for scheduling in-store pickups or virtual appointments. If you're selling in person, Square makes it easy to switch to contactless payment like Apple Pay with touch-free.

free hardware for your counter, curbside, and back pocket. No matter where you take payments, you get instant access to your money with a free business debit card. All these tools work together, all from one place, and that's just the start. So whether you're a restaurant, clothing store, plumber, or dance instructor, Square has tools to help. See everything Square can do at square.com forward slash go forward slash ringer NBA. And now back to the mismatch. All right, Kevin, I want to get your thoughts on this before we get out of here. today. Shams Sharania yesterday reported sources.

The NBA G League is seriously discussing tournament featuring the elite ignite team led by Jalen Green, Jonathan Kumunga, and other teams undrafted players, etc. in a bubble environment in November, December, decisions are still fluid. Now, look, I think that we have no idea what is going to happen with, the NBA, much less what is going to happen with the G League. But we have talked about how this particular season could alter, honestly, the future of NBA, the NBA draft, scouting NBA prospects, et cetera, because you have the elite level players that decided to go this route, which is obviously not going to be nearly as smooth as

when they made their original decisions. But frankly, neither is college basketball. football. And now not knowing the way it is all going to play out and knowing that this, this is a big case study in how does this work, how does this affect their draft stock versus if they would have gone to college. And though it is hypothetical, at least we'll know that if they have some success out of this and we see them getting better in this, that it could really change the future of the NBA draft. This feels, when I first read that, that, It feels like the NBA knows what's at stake here, and they want to make sure that these guys have a big time experience.

It may end up benefiting the G League and other players in that in a massive way because I think the NBA probably feels the pressure to do right by these kids that have said, we're not going to go to college and we're going to go do your thing, right? For sure. No doubt about it. The NBA for many, many years now has wanted to grow to the G League out even more. and I remember hearing maybe three years ago, three and a half years ago about their plans to have their own team, which we're seeing now with Green on there, with Cominga on there, with the other young high school prospects that have joined that team instead of going to college or even instead of going to Australia like RJ Hampton and Lamello Ball did instead of going overseas, you know. The NBA does have an opportunity here to show that this can be a real path for players to get to the NBA and to, improve as players to improve their bodies to improve as, you know, young men, you know, making that transition and learning what it takes to be a professional, how to do your taxes

or whatever it might be, you know, like little things like that, you know, handling the pressures of the game. There's more to it than just basketball itself. But the basketball obviously does take center stage. And with everything going on now with the pandemic and the change schedule for the league itself, they do need to provide something. And I'm not sure what shape this tournament will take. Like I said, we don't know exactly what would happen yet.

But I would be excited to watch that in November and December, wouldn't you? I'd be tuning right in. That's on like ESPN 2 or whatever. I'd be all over that. You know, Kevin, I think there was a risk that other guys in the G League were going to resent this, right?

Guys that are fighting for. their careers and they know that these kids are coming in and they're getting paid exorbitant amounts to play in this league. And so there's always going to be a chance that there was going to be resent from a lot of the guys that were in the G League. But I think that this is one of those opportunities where the NBA gives them a chance now. If you're a player in the G League, you take a step back and say, look at this opportunity we are getting because these awesome players are coming to play.

And that is it. That resent goes out the window because I think you and I both feel the same way. There's no way they're even doing this or considering this if those elite level players are not playing in the G League. They're just, I mean, that is so, what happens with the G League is much further on the back burner. But instead, when you've got these kids that have decided they're going to go play in this, they want to do right by them.

And so it ends up being a great opportunity for everybody else in the league. And it shows like this is a great thing that these players are doing this. Even if you want to be mad that they're getting paid with, they're getting paid and that they're being treated different than the rest of the G League. Look at the opportunity now because now we're going to have scouts there watching Jalen Green and Jonathan Kamunga, Kabunga, whatever. I'm going to mess up his name. I'm sorry.

but they're going to have scouts there watching Jalen Green and the others and just by virtue of them being there, they're going to see these other players. Therefore, if I'm another player in the league, it gives me a lot better chance of getting seen, you know? For sure. I mean, it can help everybody out. If you're able to get star-level talent into the G-League

that's able to draw more eyeballs to the G-League, that's able to make it a more competitive league, you know, not that it's not, but just to make it more more entertaining. It's just make it more entertaining. And that can then therefore benefit everybody else who's in the G League.

It can become more of a true minor league system for the entire NBA and a product that fans might enjoy watching. You look at some of the guys right now in the postseason. They had G League experience. Lakers fans love Alex Caruso. They love Alex Caruso. And he's a guy who is with the South Bay Lakers

for over a year down there. And I would imagine that someday, you know, if the G league's able to grow more and more and more, you're going to have more of those types of players that local fans love because they watch them on the G league team. They were watching that player before everybody else knew about them. That's right. That's when you have a real special attachment to a player. And, you know, I would hope the league can reach that point at some point, though it's not

there yet. Having guys like Green and Cominga in there helps a lot. Well, that happened with Siakum. I mean, there's a ton of them. There's a ton of NBA players now that have become even all-stars that, you know, had real time spent in the G-League like Siakum. De Seacom's team won a title, I believe, playing for that 905 team way back when. So I do think that this is going to be a good thing.

And I'd watch it. I just want to see what Jalen Green did these other prospects look like because that's going to be our opportunity. The other thing that took place since we last spoke was the voting was all made public. Very proud of you, Kevin. You were not the subject of anybody's ire, as far as I saw, on any of your votes. You took this, you took the voting very seriously. You were very responsible about all of your votes.

Therefore, no one is jumping on you. But you have seen throughout the Twitter sphere. And elsewhere, even on these talking head shows, people debating about players that didn't get votes for different things, et cetera, et cetera. And watching that all play out and the votes becoming public was incredibly fascinating because it took place over the weekend. And you saw the level of passion that people have about this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Well, sometimes they can be mean. Sometimes they can be mean. I look, look, I myself, as someone who was championing John Morant this year for him to not be unanimous by one vote. And then Joe Cowley, who is the writer for the Chicago Sun Times, to explain his vote by saying, because the pelicans were on national TV a bunch, that's why he voted for Zion Williamson. was, I mean, like, look, at least Maria Taylor. Did he say that? A tweet?

I didn't see that. I was off Twitter most of that. Oh, thank goodness. His reasoning was because the NBA built a TV schedule around him. And so the rookie of the year should be most impactful. I mean, never mind basketball. It's not like he played 19 games and they went like 19 and oh in those games, right? never mind basketball impact.

He was the most impactful league-wide. And so he stood by his vote and said, I'll be on this side of history. I mean, so he didn't vote for John Moran. You had the big Maria Taylor controversy, who we love Maria Taylor. Maria came out and said, I made a mistake, you know, like I didn't have AD.

Not having AD on the all-day ballot, yeah. She didn't have. And look, I, to me, for Maria Taylor, obviously it's a mistake, but she said, I made a mistake. Like, I didn't mean to do this. And, you know, that's my bad, you know. And I think she felt bad about it. That's a lot different that some dude from the Chicago sometimes telling me that

Zion Williamson should get the rookie of the year because he was, because the pelicans were on TV a bunch. Yeah, much different. Like, I mean, that's just, that's irresponsible. Yeah. It's different than voting Andre Drummond for defensive player of the year, too, like somebody else did. amongst a lot of other whack votes.

But with people getting mad at like the writers for their choices, some dumb, some mistakes, whatever it might be. Like to me, like this just speaks to like, is there a way that we can make this a better system? What can the NBA do to assure that you don't want groupthink? You don't want everybody making the same choices. And I do think that the group think element of the NBA is real. I think that you're seeing this, Matt Moore,

from the Action Network had a piece, I think months ago, about, you know, how award voting has gotten. There's more of a consensus now increasingly every year than ever before for MVP voting and other awards. I don't think that's because there's obvious choices for these votes. I think that's representative of there's a group think element here. Absolutely. Reading and hearing what others are saying. And then they, therefore, are making those choices. And they also are doing it too, because they know if they don't do it, they might get, you the Twitter mob coming after them.

That's right. For doing something different. You won't be alone. Right? You look around and you say, I know a bunch of people are voting for this. And it can't be that way. It can't be that way for NBA voting, nor can it be that way for society as a whole. That's right.

I agree with you. Which we are moving in that direction with everything for that matter. But, you know, with the NBA, it's like, what can the league do? This is like award voting. This is not some highly complex system that we exist in. This is basketball award voting. How can we make something as simple as this better to assure that there is range in what people are doing and that they are making their own choices, but they also aren't voting for Andre Drummond for a defensive player of the year, that they also aren't making a mistake and leaving AD off their ballot?

Is there a better way from a technical standpoint in terms of who they choose to vote for the awards, how they create a ballot who's on the best, ballot, maybe you have a committee of people that, you know, with players, coaches, executives and media who choose like a ballot for people to vote upon, what can be done to improve it? And I think there's easy ways to do it. This will be very instructive for all of our listeners. I don't have a vote. You do have a vote for awards. I do.

Okay. How did you get that? Did you apply for it? Did they just send you something out of nowhere? in 2017, the 1617 season, I got emails, you know, hey, would you like to, you know, do award voting? And I'm like, yeah, I'd love to. It'd be an honor. You know, really, it is an honor to do it. I've done it. In 17, 18, 19, 20, this is my fourth year voting for awards.

And it is something I take incredibly seriously. And the reason why I take it incredibly seriously is because for whatever reason, something I disagree with, media, you know, determines. These awards, which happen to determine player bonuses, player contracts. And so I think getting it done in the fairest way possible is incredibly important. It's important even without that factor. You know, these are the awards here. But the fact that's tied to money players can make, this has to be fair as possible. And for the league, I hope that there are little changes that can be made to make it even better.

I think for the most part, the right guys won. So like no complaints here really. I agree. But, you know, there's still ways to make it better to assure that there's never any instance of mistakes in the future. And one of those we did see this year. Chris Middleton got more votes, more points than Russell Westbrook and Ben Simmons. But he didn't make the third team all NBA because of technicality with the way votes were split between forward and guard position. Which to me, I look at that and like, you're telling me Chris Middleton got quite a few more points than they did is left off just because of the way the, I don't know, I'm not sure exactly because the way the votes are split at card and forward.

That just seems silly to me. And there's stuff like that that I worry could Chris Middleton missing third team NBA isn't necessarily going to cause Twitter to go crazy or to cause, you know, NBA media and first take to go crazy. but it's something to keep in mind that this seems like a flaw in the system that can be improved upon. And when people say, what does it really matter? It's just,

like you described well why it matters. Now, thank God, AD was first team all NBA, no matter what. But God forbid, it cost somebody $50 million. You know what I'm saying? Like, I mean,

look how much money it made Campbell Walker. Remember when he made 13th, all NBA? I mean, it's a different contract. Even though he didn't stay. Right. But it is a, He had the choice.

It is a different contract you can sign just because you made all NBA. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't think it's fair. I don't think contracts should be tied to what media decide. I don't think contracts should be determined by what anybody decides. If players have a vote, coaches have the vote, there's got to be a better way there, whether it's just outlawing bonuses tied to awards or whether it's just the fact that you have something else in place that determines that.

I agree with you. Or just don't, don't allow it at all. Because I don't think it's right. I don't feel, I personally don't feel comfortable with the fact that like my vote can determine what Kimber Walker could make. I don't think that's the right way to go about it. I agree with you too. It should not be tied to player bonuses.

And the structure of which, I mean, you're talking $50 million, sometimes more. It's a lot of money that a hundred and one people are determining. And what if, and if, and if, and if, and if, and if, and if, and if, and if, so bozo just goes out there and votes for the wrong guy, like, you know what I mean? Like, like that same guy that I told you voted for, uh, didn't, didn't vote John Morant. He voted Patrick Beverly defensive player of the year. It's like, well, like, what if I have a bonus for getting defensive player of the year

in my contract? And this guy, some guy who, you, like, he's not even in the top three. He, this guy cost me, you know, amount of dollars. Now, thank goodness, it doesn't appear that anybody was cost, you know, Chris Middleton already made his money, right? Kevin Walker made his money, as we said,

a year ago. John Moran, it's not, he doesn't get any more for being unanimous. Anthony Davis made the first team, but it could have, it could have really altered, you know, a lot of these guys. It's not just the players though either. Also on the team side, like, think about it

from Charlotte's side, the whole conversation those months leading up to it was like, If Kemba makes all NBA or do we really want to pay him this much money? Right. You know, I just don't feel like it should be, I don't feel like player earning should be determined by it. And I also don't feel like the media vote should impact the flexibility of an entire, you know, organization.

You know, it's just, it's just weird to me that these two things are tied together. And the, and this is what I would say. I agree with you. It should not be. If it is going to be, they should penalize the people that's, They should. That screw up. They need to.

They need votes taken away. If you are, if you are so goofy, and I'm not talking about just anti-group thing. I'm talking about if you are delinquents. You're talking about. How can I have, you know? How in good conscience can I give this guy a vote again? You know what I'm saying? Like, as long as this stuff's going to be tied to their contracts, you can't have people

doing goofy crap. I'm sorry. Like, that's just a way. it is. And I say that on behalf of the players, you know, because if it were me in that spot and I got some dumbass voting for Andre Drummond for defensive player of the year, they couldn't even get a first round pick for Andre Drummond. Teams wanted the pistons to add a first round pick in order to take him. Like, that's the only way they could get rid of him. And I think they ended up tying like two seconds to him instead. But like, they almost weren't able to try.

trade him because everybody wanted a first with him to take on his contract. You can vote him defensive player of the year. Like, bro, you don't get to vote anymore. I'm sorry. I mean, I can't have that affecting guy's salaries. I mean, there's some, there's some odd votes. And like I said, you don't, you never want group think. You don't want that.

But I do wonder if maybe one of the solutions is, like I said, to trim the, because right now the way it works is the NBA sends you the ballot. you can choose every player in the NBA. Every player is on the defensive player of the year ballot. Maybe you should have a committee that trims that to like 10 people, you know, like or 15 people. Or maybe every year it's different. Some years it's eight. Some years it's 20.

And same thing for like all NBA. Instead of, you know, having every player on the ballot where somebody can choose the wrong at Tanacumpo because they're listed by last name or choose the wrong person. like they can pick Jonathan Simmons instead of Ben Simmons or whatever, which by the way, if somebody does choose the wrong thing, the NBA will usually go to you and say, hey, did you mean to do this?

That's happened before. But point being is that maybe you trim the size down of the selectable players to minimize the chance that some goofy picks, as you say, are made, which can really railroad the whole process. You can limit it with what people choose, but also promote still, you know, variety and what people are choosing. So there's not group thing.

That's the fear I have is that we continue moving towards like what they see somebody else does. They just follow along. I think, oh, that must be the right choice because they said that. So I'm not sure the right way. Like you can't police what people are saying. You can't say don't talk about MVP until after awards. You can't do that, obviously. But I wonder if maybe, look, I also think accountability is important.

We're talking about it right now. because they released the media ballots. I'm not, would media be more likely to, you know, would like a Lakers, let's say a Lakers beat writer, would they be more willing to put, you know, Janus as the winner if their vote wasn't going to be out there? Would a jazz beat writer who is with Gobert every day? And I, by the way, I didn't even look at the media ballot. So I don't know if I'm speaking to any specifics here.

Just theoretically, would a jazz beat writer be more willing to put AD if they knew that their vote wasn't going to be out there in that they. They would have jazz fans in their mentions that jazz executives and coaches and Gobert himself would see that as well. Would they be more likely to do what they truly thought was the right choice to make? And I'm not sure how to balance out that accountability aspect with releasing the votes and the ballots versus the fear of groupthink, which is very, very real on social media today, across industries, whatever it might be. So for the league, that's conversations that they need to have internally to figure out the best approach here. But it's just something that's been in my mind for the league. There's ways to improve this and make it better, and it should be better.

Well, maybe I would like to nominate myself. NBA, I am more than willing to do it. I can be the arbiter of goofy. And I will look at your ballot. And if I find this to be extremely goofy, You get no more votes. If you vote Andre Drummond defensive player of the year, it's gone. I'm the arbiter.

I'm the final judge. And I say, your vote is taken away. If you vote Zion Williams is a rookie of the year, it's gone. Your vote's gone. You don't get the vote anymore. I mean, if they need somebody to do this stuff, I'll do it. And I can just start taking away votes. The arbiter of goofy.

I mean, if you do something that goofy, you don't get the vote anymore. It matters too much. But you're dead on. I hadn't thought about that. You are dead on about to have to see these guys every day. stuff. That is hard. I mean, you know what I'm saying? If you're, if you, if you got to see these guys every day and you're the guy that

didn't vote for that guy, a guy that played for the team that you cover day in and day out, it's not easy. No doubt. It's not, it's an awkward situation to say the least. And it does not promote objectivity. Sure. And I'm sure like there will be people who say, well, don't give the beat writers votes. And I would say no.

Like beat writers work extremely hard. I mean, if anything, sometimes they're the hardest working people in NBA media amongst writers, you know, traveling as much as they often do, going to every game, writing after every game, oftentimes multiple articles and having to do radio or TV, whatever it might be. I mean, like that is a, it's a hard job. I mean, it's a great job and we're all thankful to have it. But like, for a beat writer, that's something that you get to be on every day, really. It's an everyday type of job without a lot of time off. and they watch the league too. They watch the league too, and they deserve votes.

And I don't know. It's just complicated. And there's nobody good to do it either because like, look, you could flip on the playoffs. Paul Pierce will rank LeBron 16th best player in the NBA. Exactly. Exactly. Like everybody's got crappy opinions. Exactly.

Exactly. And so do we. Right. So do we. And it's like the type of thing where I feel like that there's just tweaks, tweaks to me. make to make it a better overall overall process and a fairer process where you don't have LeBron James coming out and other players coming out saying this is stupid you know it's way off I don't think it's way off I don't think the process overall is solid he's just mad he lost to

yannis of course and he's also trying to create you know controversy for himself is getting slighted by the media again and by the way we talked about a month ago I said that I seriously considered LeBron James and I did I gave Yon us the edge because of his defensive player of the year level performance on top of the offense. But I do think LeBron has some points that he

was right about that people did just sort of hand it to Janus and that there wasn't a lot of consideration with LeBron when there probably should have been given more to him than there was. The fact is though is that the process isn't horrible, it's just solid and it can be better and should

be better. Yep. All right, that is going to do it for another episode of the mismatch. Kevin, I think everything could be very different by the time we speak on Thursday night, but we will certainly have a couple of basketball games before then and we'll see what both of these look like, both these series look like.

I will talk to you then. I'm looking forward to it, and thank you to producer Sasha. As always. We'll talk to you on Friday, everybody. Fantasy football is back, and you don't want your team to suck. My favorite fantasy football punishment I've ever heard,

is the last place guy had to spend 24 hours in a waffle house, and every waffle he ate was one hour off of his count. I want numbers. How many did he end up eating? 12 waffles and 12 hours. I'm Danny Haifitz. I'm Danny Kelly. And I'm Craig Horlebeck. We host the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on the Ringer Podcast Network.

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