The Ringer NBA Show - Don’t Worry About the Cavs, LeBron-to-Philly, and Lonzo’s Lakers | Heat Check (Ep. 222)

Episode Date: March 5, 2018

The Ringer’s John Gonzalez is joined by Joe House to discuss J.R. Smith's Soupgate (3:17), the Cleveland Cavaliers’ concerns (9:12), and the Rockets’ chances to usurp the Warriors (15:17). Then, Chris Ryan comes on to discuss the legacy of former Sixers GM Sam Hinkie (27:05), the hypothetical of LeBron going to Philadelphia (35:02), and the future for Hinkie (42:28). Finally, Kevin O’Connor and Paolo Uggetti join to reevaluate draft-day debates (48:22) and Lonzo Ball’s recent improvements (63:16). Articles mentioned on the show: Paolo Uggetti on the Rockets’ regular-season dominance John Gonzalez on Sam Hinkie’s future Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier on how LeBron James would fit on the 76ers Kevin O’Connor on past draft-day debates Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's Heat Check podcast is brought to you by Yahoo Fantasy. Do you know what time it is? It's Bracket Time. It's NCAA tournament time. It's everybody's favorite time. There's no wrong way to pick teams with Yahoo Sports Tourney Pickham all through the Yahoo Fantasy app. Join a public group or create a group by yourself or even, I guess this is true. You can join Draymond Green's group for a shot at $25,000. This is amazing. Later on in the program, we're going to talk to Kevin O'Connor, who has some very interesting thoughts about Draymond Green. You don't want to miss that.

and don't miss out on March Madness, get your bracket in before the games tip off on March 15th or build your own bracket now at Yahoo.com slash 2028. Welcome to the Heat Check Podcast. I'm your host, John Gonzalez, joined per usual by our producer, Isaac Lee. What's going on, Isaac?

What's good, Gonzo? I am back. I was not here last week. I was traveling back from Boston in the Sloan Analytics Conference. You were still here, and you did great work per usual. I was excited about that.

I was a little surprised, though, because when I said I couldn't do the show, I anticipated that they would just get somebody on my level to fill in, like an intern or maybe a hobo, or perhaps one of our many hobo interns. You there with the knapsack slung over your shoulder. You think too lowly of yourself. You're on the heat check podcast. Instead, Isaac, boss man Bill Simmons filled it. The boss himself.

He came in, he crushed it. He always crushes it. That's how you know we're doing okay on the heat check podcast when you get Bill Simmons to fill. The Potfather. Amazing. So thanks to Bill Simmons for that. A lot of good stuff happening on the ringer today that you want to check out as well. We have all of our Oscars coverage.

And we also have one shining podcast. It's college basketball time. The tournament is rapidly approaching. Mark Titus and Tate Frazier have absolutely killed it. Do you produce that one, too? No, that's Kyle. Okay, Kyle. Kyle does a great job.

That's like the only podcast you don't produce here. But you guys should absolutely check that out. They'll get you ready for all of your NCAA tournament pools and brackets. And we've got some other stuff on the ringer today. I wrote a long piece about Sam Hanky. I've known Sam for a long time. And I have been after him to do something on the record for years, actually. And he finally relented. So Chris Ryan, who edited that piece, a man of many hats here at the ringer, he's going to come on. We're going to talk about Sam Hinky. Later on in the program, Kevin O'Connor, always doing good stuff. He wrote a story of rethinking NBA draft

debates. So we're going to bring him on with Palo Gettie, who's a first time or Isaac. Never been on the heat check. Oh yeah, P-U. P-U and KOC on the program. We'll talk about KOC's piece. We'll talk about Lonzo and the Lakers. And then the nutty Western Conference playoff picture, because the back end of the playoffs, Isaac, really, it's very interesting to see who's going to be in there. Oh, the Clippers will be in there. The Clippers will be in there. I'm going to go not Clippers, but we'll get into it. But first, it is the heat check podcast, and I am back. So I want a walking heat check to lead us off. Let's go with Joe House. Dial them up. He's heating up.

All right, joining me on the other line, one of our favorites here at the Heat Check podcast. A repeat offender now. We can say he's a friend of the show from House of Car. I was going to do the whole thing where I do House of Carbs and a long shack house, but I don't have the lung capacity for it. You're like a rapper. You have great lung capacity. That's very nice of you to say.

I appreciate it. And it's fine. We accept all imitations. We accept all pretenders. But, you know, just having me on is enough. You don't have to go through the whole rigamarole. I want to do it. I just, it's a poor imitation.

and you do it best, so we'll have you do it later on. But I had to have you on for a number of reasons. I feel like this is the perfect cross-section of both NBA in food. Can we get into Soupgate? Yeah, I mean... I have to get your opinion on this. I'm very glad that you guys invited me before I had to invite myself because any time there's food involved and player suspensions and all the rest of it.

And I have to say, the very first thing that I appreciate, somebody in the Cavs organization, I'm going to go kiss on the lips. because this person, this him or her, had the proper sense of humor, the right sort of sense of how this might play out in the media to be very specific about the offense that J.R. Smith committed. He or she did not have to be so specific with Wendy or with Big Man of Men, right? They didn't have to say.

They could have been discipline for team issues, discipline for, you know, breaking team rules. No, no, no, no. J.R. Smith is going to sit out of game because he threw soup and an assistant coach. I mean, that's pretty good. There's a lot to get into with this. It's one of my favorite weird NBA stories of the season. It's right up there with the Rockets going through the secret hallway to talk to the Clippers when they were out here when Chris Paul came back. But like you said, I mean, if not for the level of detail that ESPN delivered us on the fact that it was soup that was thrown, who knows? I mean, we don't get to talk about this. This is why I wanted to bring you on because I like soup. So the idea that he would throw it, I mean, was it a bad soup? What kind of soup was it? What's the best soup to throw, Joe House?

I think you've probably thought about this quite a bit. Yeah, I have some opinions. So in the first place, I hope for J.R. Smith's sake and for the assistant coaches' sake, that it wasn't an entire bowl because that's wasteful. It's a lot. And I'd like to think this day and age, we're all a little bit more mindful about the space that we occupy, you know, about our carbon footprint. and honestly our food footprint, right? We're in a moment here where we're all sensitive to preservation of resources.

So I'm hoping it wasn't a whole bowl. Now, of course, I have opinions on both the best case scenario in terms of the soup to be covered in and the worst case scenario. And I want to sort of tread lightly here. I don't want to come in throwing bombs. No, why would we bring you on if you weren't going to throw bombs? You're the bomb throw. You came in when you dialed in, I don't even know if you were on a month. microphone are just screaming from DC. You blew out two of my ear drums. I only have to.

I only bring it one way, Wong-Gahn, and that's strong. So why the heat check podcast listeners love you. I personally think it had to be a liquid-based and not a cream-based soup, like it had to be a broth-based soup. Because if it was a bisque, how's it going to travel? It's going to stick to the bowl. No, no. I think the worst case scenario, and I'm hoping it was not this, to me, and this is my gentle criticism of the podfather himself, Bill Simmons. Bill Simmons put out a poll of what would be the worst soup that he could throw. He left out the one that's by far the worst to me, which is broccoli cheddar, because it is both cream-based and it treads a very fine line between being stinky to the point of being

inedible. Now, broccoli cheddar soup is absolutely delicious because if you get the cheese quantity right, the salt that gets delivered on top of the broccoli, and the broccoli delivers a kind of funk that makes it a very satisfying soup, it's a soup that eats like a meal. I think somebody's used that phraseology before. You should know, you should trademark it. I think it's yours. I don't want that funk on my shirt.

No funk. This is the thing. Clam Chowder won that poll that Brother Simmons put up there. But here's the thing with Clam Chowder, also a cream-based soup. Clam Chowder, if done properly, has as its predominant flavor profile, the combination of butter and bacon. Because bacon is the hidden secret ingredient in clam chowder that really, really elevates clam chowder in terms of its overall. It's the combination of cream, butter, potatoes, and bacon that make clam chowder so delicious. The clams provide a kind of palate relief.

They introduce the sea to you, the coast. You get sort of a chewiness out of them, but they aren't the totality of the flavor profile, the way the broccoli dominates the broccoli cheddar. Yeah. See, I went with the clam chowder as the worst soup to have thrown on you as well, because I just, and I love clam chatter. I was just in Boston, and I had quite a bit of it while I was at the Sloan Analytics conference. But the brineiness, I think sometimes if you don't do it right, and you get that on you in the same way that you were saying,

you don't want sort of the broccoli cheddar stink. But as a throwing mechanism, I think choosing a bisque would be the wrong way to go. It's not going to travel as well. I think you need something more liquid, broth-based, maybe like a chicken noodle. We need a version of the crime scene, right? We need to know how close they were sitting, where they had a table, was one of them standing? Was it a dump?

Like, was it a dump over the head? Or was it a throw across the table? Like, we need to sketch out what the crime scene looks like to really properly, you know, put this to the Zapruder test. Yeah, we need to outline people, like a chalk outline the whole bit. I love working at the ringer. The one failing, I think, that I've had, or that we've had collectively, we'll do a we because we're all in it together, is not dispatching you immediately,

Joe House, to the scene to report on this. Who better than Joe House to talk about the intersection? of basketball and thrown food stuffs. I don't think Cleveland would let me in there. I've disrespected Cleveland too much over the years. I'm not sure I could get access. Speaking of Cleveland, because we can't just only do food. I would like to, but I think the bosses would probably prefer that we also talk about basketball.

But speaking of Cleveland, they've been a very interesting team in addition to the soup throwing, which has only heightened our interest in them, Joe House. They've been a very interesting team since the trade. They're six and four over their last 10, but they're only two and four since the All-Star break. Are they better? What do we think of them? It's not the right time to say what we think of them, is my humble view on this matter. And that's because they remain so fluid in terms of finding out who they are. And with the absence of Kevin Love, we're not going to know who they are until he's back.

So it might be that they have a chemistry problem going into the playoffs. And it might be that it doesn't matter because they still have the greatest player on the planet. Yeah. So the jury is out. It is apparent that they like playing with each other, which is an immediate improvement over the previous situation. It is apparent that they desire to play defense. They still stink at defense.

I believe they remain in the bottom five in defending the pick and roll in the league. But I chalk that up now to chemistry as opposed to desire and will, which seemed to be the principal culprit in the previous iteration of the Cavs. So, I mean, if you're a Cavs fan and you're wanting to look for green shoots, right? Green shoots coming up out of the ground.

Spring is springing. They have, the cold winter is behind them. This is quite the picture you're painting. You should use words for a living. It's great. I mean, our boy, Palo threw out some Bob Ross in his article about the Rockets. I mean, you know, it's very inspirational. But I would say that for the calves, it's a TBD.

If they don't figure out, and Tristan Thompson's ankle injury isn't going to help that, any because it looks like he's out for a sustained stretch now. So it might just be the case that they come in because there's only 20 games left or so. We entered the playoffs and they hope to at least end up with the, at worst, the four seats that they hope home court advantage to figure out who the hell they are in the first round of the playoffs. So you mentioned a lot of things that are really interesting here. The defense, you're right. I think that initially when they made that trade, I immediately went, man, this is going to be

a much better team. They're younger, they're quicker, they're more athletic, they're going to be better on the defense event. They haven't been. It is a small sample size. But I wonder then if it's something like schematically, if it traces back to Tailu, what's going on with that defense. But also, the part that you just mentioned about where they end up seeding wise, normally, I am with you in the, would it even matter? It doesn't matter. Remember last year when LeBron basically threw up his hands and went, yeah, I'm going to take the last week of the season off and the Celtics can have the first seat in the Eastern Conference because it doesn't matter to us, except for it's a little bit different this time.

right now they are in third place, but they are only one game out of falling out of home court advantage in the Eastern Conference, which would put them in fifth spot. So then all of a sudden, it starts to get a little squirly, and I wonder if that does matter because there's a big difference between not having home court advantage at all

and having some, you know, or being the one and two seed. And I wonder if psychologically that that would mess with them. I just think for a team that is in the kind of small D, disarray because you don't use a big D disarray as long as LeBron is playing. I'm a person that thinks with the current version of the playoffs that they could figure out this stuff in the playoffs over the course of the next, let's say, because the playoffs, the first round of the playoffs represents at least four games for them and maybe five or six

or seven games. So what you're really talking about in terms of the time frame in which the Cavs can get themselves figured out is like 25 to almost 30 games, not just the 20 left in the regular season. But they need to have every advantage on the table. So I think for them, it's important to not drop below four. Looking at the other contenders, I think they're in pretty decent shape. Right now they'd be lined up. It would be a Cavs 76ers matchup. Very intriguing. But there's been this narrative, Joe, and I wanted to run this past you, that Kevin Love will help boost this team, which I find fascinating because when Kevin Love was actually playing and having a good season,

everybody still shit on him. Isaiah Thomas was there for a hot second for 15 games, and even he was shitting on Kevin Love. And now all of a sudden there's this, well, wait till Kevin Love comes back. They'll get a good boost narrative. And I just find that really intriguing. Do we buy that adding Kevin Love back into this team

will somehow like supercharge them? Yes. You do. Absolutely. Unequivocally without hesitation reservation. I believe that the previous version of the Cavaliers with those Celtic add-ons was made up of malcontent and malfeasance.

And I believe that they have sent away all of the bad spirits, all of the bad eggs, all of the bad mojo by way of the trade. This most recent exploration of theirs at the trade deadline was an addition by subtraction. They had to get rid of bad attitudes. And it seems like they accomplished that. So I think Kevin Love, now the thing that I find with the cavaliers as much as anything in terms of their defensive insufficiencies,

You would never say Kevin Love coming back is going to immediately shore up the defense. But what he does represent is familiarity, right? It's a trust thing. So LeBron can have two or three guys on the court with him that he's been through these wars with, who he at least can count on to be generally in the right place. You know, we're not looking at Kevin Love to stop at the four on anybody else's team, but him and Tristan Thompson and J.R. Smith and then one of the guys that have come in, you know, by way of trade, those guys trust each other.

They trust that they know where to be on the court at the same time. I just like the idea that all of a sudden, Kevin Love, who even before Isaiah Thomas came along, and I want to take Isaiah out of the equation, even before he came along, he was just sort of a whipping boy, and now all of a sudden it's like, we can't wait until he comes back. He's our dude. So it'll be interesting. It's an interesting time for the Cavs. They do have some chemistry issues that they need to work out.

A team that I thought, Joe House, that you wanted to talk about, would have some chemistry issues that has not at all and is absolutely murdering it this year is the Houston Rockets. They've won 15 in a row. Are you surprised by this? Is this what you expected? You mentioned Paolo's piece. Palo is going to be on the show later on in the program. The Rockets have been a joy to watch this year.

I couldn't agree more. They have exceeded expectations. I was bullish on them. At the outset of this NBA season, I was lucky enough to sit down with the podfather, Bill Simmons. We did our annual over under. We were joined in that exercise by Kevin O'Ball. Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Drop Bomber.

I don't know all. I can't do it. It's really good. You're doing this. You're the new Verno. And we had network. We had Jason Concepcion along for the ride as well. That's a murdering.

That's a hell of a group. I agree with that. Kevin O Baller was super bullish on Houston. I didn't share his unbridled enthusiasm, but I thought good things. I thought that Chris Paul and James Hardin would be able to coexist quite well. I didn't have any concerns or reservations. I definitely asserted that they would achieve the over on their projected win total for the season. I don't remember where it was, but it wasn't high enough because I thought that they were

at least a 60 win team with the roster that they had in place. The thing that I like the most about the Houston Rockets, they are playing their asses off. They treat every regular season game like it matters, like they're playing for their playoff lives. And you know what? we're kind of in this mode because of that outstanding effort of theirs, that they're legitimately in the conversation for the number one seed in the Western Conference, which is awesome.

It's so good. So that's where I want to get into that because, so we have guys like Jeff Van Gundy, and I wasn't, I thought that they would be good. I wasn't sure, though, about that fit with Hardin and Paul, two guys who are very ball dominant.

Obviously, they figured it out. They look amazing. But you have guys like Jeff Van Gundy, who at the beginning of the year were like, forget about it. it's already over. It's the Golden State Warriors and the season is finished. And now all of a sudden he's coming off of that position, which Darryl Morey noted, by the way, on Twitter and gave him

a little heat for it and said, yeah, this is just like when he said that the Miami heat season was over and then the heat ended up losing. So I think that that's, it's good for basketball that it's not over. Get in that ass. Right. Get in that ass, Darryl Moore. He got after it and I love it. And it's good for basketball that it isn't over. And now all of a sudden we do have some intrigue. I will, however, say this. The Rockets have won 15 in a row. and there's still only a half game up on the Warriors as we record this. That tells you everything you need to know about this battle in the Western Conference. Well, here's the thing.

As much as I admire and appreciate what the Rockets are doing right now and this regular season effort, I mean, you got to give them all a great big hug because when you take money out of your wallet to go see a professional NBA basketball game, in the first place, it's not cheap. You're taking a lot of money out of your wallet, but you need the guys to play hard. You want the guys to play hard. the rockets play hard. They play only kind of at one pace, one style. They're committed.

God bless James Harden. He just keeps bringing it and bringing it and bringing it. He has not taken his foot off the pedal one bit, but they're just a nice regular season story right now. I mean, we could fast forward, and it would be nice to do it, although you never want to lose any of the intrigue, the twists and turns that the playoffs deliver. Right.

But we do have this appetite. It was very fun watching the Rockets play the Celtics on Saturday night. Prime time, ABC, big time game. The team's playing at sort of a playoff pitch, playoff fervor. So you want that playoff kind of juice. We've got to spill some playoff juice all over these guys. I'm ready for it. Can we hurry up and get there?

I was with you right up until the spilling of the juice. You don't want to spill the playoffs? I don't know. I'm all of a sudden very uncomfortable. It's a religious thing. It's a religious thing, brother. You're anointing them. of this. I'm talking about some sacred abulations. Sacred abulations, you on

gone. Here's the deal. Houston might only be a good regular season story. Because depending on what happens in the first two rounds of the playoffs, if you ask me right now and you show me some odds on it, there's a decent chance that I would bet out with my own hardware money. So let me stop you right there. You are a man, I know this about you. You're a man who has been known to make a wager or two. I like to allocate the capital. You know I do, Wong God. You've allocated some funds in the past. Let's allocate some funds moving forward here. Handicap it for me. Joe House, what percentage chance would you give the rockets of unseating the wars and going to the finals? Are both teams healthy? Everybody's healthy. Zero percent. No percentage check. Come on. That's absurd.

Zero. You gave me the answer to the most important question, which is if both teams are healthy, I just don't see a scenario in the playoffs where the Rockets win four games. And in fact, the thing that I would personally bet on to get terrific odds at this very moment because of, you know, kind of the idea that Houston has interjected itself into kind of contender status. I might have to call up the cousin style and work this out. I would like to bet on Golden State sweeping the Houston Rockets. That's bananas. I think you could get terrific odds. I believe it to be the case that come playoff time, the only way that Houston can beat Golden State is by outscoring them because I don't buy into... They're playing better. They're playing better. I know. They're very, very,

They've been a good defensive team this year. I agree with that. All that is true. I just don't think that they have enough firepower. They win one way. They win by outscoring teams. Now, I know that Saturday night, they won through a combination of scoring and defense. The Celtics committed four turnovers in the last four minutes.

The Rock has committed no turnovers. And the Rockets scored. They stole the win, literally, by stealing the basketball. I chucked that up a little bit to the composition of Boston. They only have one dynamic score. Boston's problem, not to go off on a super subtangent, is exactly what we saw Saturday night, which is they only have one dynamic score. Al Horford taking open shots and missing them is the Boston Celtics.

They're going to live and die with Horford. They had Terry Rozier in for crucial fourth quarter minutes because he had the hot hand. That is the fate of the Boston. That's the state of the Boston Celtics at this moment, the state and the fate. So Houston, that was a nice barometer of where Houston stands. the streak is incredible. They won the month of February. They sure did.

Which is incredible. Pat on the back for all of it. But come playoff time. I need to see it. The Warriors are obviously the heavy favorite. I stopped gambling a long time ago because I realized, despite the fact that I have spent much of my professional career covering sports,

it turns out I know nothing about sports and therefore should not wage or my money on it. However, I don't think it's a 0% chance. I would give them maybe one in five that they would. I mean, it's a seven-game series, so the better teams almost always win them, and the Warriors are the better team. But before the season, I would have been with you, zero percent chance. Now, all of a sudden, I give them a shot. Before we let you go, because we know you have lots of things to do, you're a very busy man, you wear many hats. You're hungry.

You're hungry, man. When we bring you on, we've got to talk with real quick. Yeah. They've lost three in a row. They're in the middle of the pack in the Eastern Conference playoff picture. Your boy, Tomas Sauteransky. that you know, we mentioned him before and I kind of laughed at you

about this and then my buddy Luke who's a journalist of some renown who works for Huffpo was in town. He's also a whiz fan and was mentioning Sateransky and I'm like okay, he's actually a pretty good player. I've been watching him so I have to ask you Joe House, considering that

the way that they've been playing even though they've lost a couple here, but they've been happy and they're sharing the ball and Sateransky's playing surprisingly well. Is John Wall a Ewing theory? candidate? No. Speaking of absurd, that's absurd. It's a funny thing to talk about. It's an interesting thing to talk about. I greatly enjoy the podfather Bill Simmons putting out the tweets with Ewing and all the rest of it. I mean, it's giving lots of chuckles, but it's not a serious thing. The almost

bullets are a faint approximation of themselves without John Wall. And you know that from this three game losing streak. The Golden State game last Wednesday night was a schedule loss. There was no way that they were going to go to Milwaukee. Very impressive win on TV in Milwaukee and then came back the next night and hosted the Warriors. Now, the fact that they were able to stay within 10 points, they covered the spread, way to go almost bullets, was admirable, but that was not really ever, the game was never in doubt. The Friday night game, they hosted Toronto, and then last night they hosted Indiana. The missing ingredient in both of those games is one more dynamic score, one more playmaker, one more guy that can get buckets when you need him.

And also defensively, you know, John Wall takes it on the chin sometimes in terms of his effort, but he understands how to play. He's always among the league leaders and steals. You can't just, you know, Sataransky is wonderful. It's a great story. He's a role player. I hope that he, you know, continues to ascend and develop into something more the way that Kelly Ubre has. but, you know, we're hurting.

And always, you know, the goal since Wall got injured, it was going to be out for the sustained stretch, I looked at the schedule and said, if we can just go 500. So we're all, we're a little ahead of the game right now. You're hanging in there. Been out. We just need to tread water.

You know, if we get the sixth slot or the seventh slot in the playoffs, that's fine. I have no concerns. I don't, I've said this a couple times now where I'll repeat it. I fear no one in the east. is not a single team in the east that I fear. This is every year, every year I, you and I've only done a couple podcasts together now, but every year you say something similar going in the playoffs, and then they're the wizards. But I'm hoping for you, because I want nice things for you in Washington.

I have friends in Washington. I want things to work out for you. And also, I like that we've planted, this is very inception-like, because I know you're saying that wall is no Ewing theory candidate, but it's a little like saying, don't think about a pink elephant, because now you're thinking about a pink elephant, and now I'm going to leave you with that. You're going to I'm not thinking. You're thinking about it. It's in your head. I've planted the seed in your brain.

What I think about is every fourth quarter, why can't I have John Wall? I mean, the Toronto game was the best example. We're going back and forth. We were just missing one score. It's too much. Port Beale has to have superhuman efforts for the almost bullets to compete. But in any event, I know where you're going with it, it's fine. I can't wait to have John Wall back in my life.

I'm crossing my fingers for you. I'm crossing my fingers for John Wall. It's Joe House. He's on House of Carbs. He's on Shaq House. Listen to him. He's everywhere. Joe House.

Thank you so much, buddy. Love you, Wang Gan. Thanks, buddy. All right, there's Joe House. Walk and Heat Check candidate, Isaac. Oh, yeah. We've got a lot of other things to get into. I wrote a piece about Sam Hinky,

so we're going to bring in Chris Ryan. But before we get to Chris Ryan, a word from our sponsors. March is here, which means one thing. It's bracket time. Yahoo Sports Tourney Pickham is the best place to fill out your bracket all through the Yahoo fantasy app. Joining a public group is easy.

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slash tawny 2018. All right, joining me in studio, our leading man here at the Ringer. He's still wearing his tucks from last night. He killed the Oscars coverage. How many times did you watch Kobe Deer Basketball, Chris Ryan? I have never seen Kobe Deer Basketball,

although I was mistaken for the guy who also made it with him. I don't know if you saw that. This is what you're going to, this is your looper. This is what you're going to look like in 50 years. Let's hope 50 years. Is that, am I wrong?

Is that the one that he showed at his retirement ceremony? I think so. Yeah. I'm not really up on Kobe's artistic pursuits. I was enough of a traumatic experience to get through the end of Kobe's playing career that I've taken a little bit of a step back from his post-plank career. Really amazing. A lot of things happening for Philly or Philly adjacent.

I don't want to get into this. If he starts claiming Philly now, it's pretty funny. This one is for you, Philadelphia. So Chris Ryan does a lot of things here at the Ringer. As we know, he hosts the Watch podcast and he did all the Oscars coverage last night. He is also an editor here at the Ringer and helped me with the Sam Hinky piece. We talked to Sam Hinky. I've been after him. You talk to him. I just sat back seat. You did many, many things on that piece, but we were after him for a couple of years. Yes.

And finally he said yes and said, let's go to Boston. We'll go to the Sloan Analytics Conference. And you can kick around with me. And I can lose you using evasion tactics. He tried some evasion tactics. I had to put a double tail on him at one point and enlist Kevin O'Connor, but we tracked him down. and he was shockingly open. I've said for a long time that Sam is somebody you can talk to on the side anytime you want, and he will have those kinds of conversations with you. But he did this one on the record. And I don't know about you.

I was a little surprised. And that was one of the things we got into in the piece. Like, why now? Why did Sam want to talk to the ringer? And it was, I think, pretty revealing. Yeah, I thought that there was an interesting point in your story where you kind of address this idea of looking backwards versus looking forwards. And this is actually, to pull the curtain back a little bit, a conversation that you and I had in the editing of the piece about what is the story with Sam Hinky? Is it what he did a few years ago or is it what he might do in the years to come?

And I don't think he knows based on reading your story. Like, I think he has some ideas. But the fact is that it might not be in basketball. You know, it might not be running a team. And we've built this guy up into this mythological figure and we've turned the process into this almost, you know, almost a religious experience at a lot of. ways for a lot of people. And now, you know, we're kind of getting to the idea of who is this guy, who is this guy who watches The Bachelor, who goes on road trips, who likes to read books, and is not as strange and mythical as we maybe made him out to be. Well, so that is, that's one of the things

that I wanted to get into, and you definitely help me focus it instead of us focusing and, you know, relitigating the process and what Sam did and tanking and all that stuff. We made it much more about, because we did have some time with him. We made it much more about who is Sam Hinky and what is he plan on doing next? And sometimes because I have had so many conversations with Sam, I forget that people do still have this caricature of him in their head where he is this really aloof nerd who can't hold the conversation with people and just would like to recede into the shadows in the corner. And that's the opposite of who Sam really is. I mean, he's very, like he's, you mentioned his family. He spends a lot of time with them. And he has some really good

friends in NBA circles and outside of NBA circles that he spends time with. And all of them that I talked to, sort of laughed at that narrative that he was this guy who, you know, who was, you know, closeted in a corner somewhere. And that's something that we tried to get into in the piece. But I wonder how much of it, like that perception of Sam was, I guess, informed by the people who didn't like him, right? Sure. Like that it was slanted because they didn't want the process to be something that was successful. Therefore, let's just marginalize him as this, as this weird nerd. So I think that to play devil's advocate here, I think it's important when you're talking about people who quote unquote didn't want the process to work, that you give the other side as much of the benefit of the diet as you'd like them to give you. Right. So if you're talking about what Sam did and what Sam's plan was and his sort of, I think that the thing that a lot of people had a problem with was Sam Hinky would not have brought in Devin Booker, Erson Eliosovo, Marco Bellanelli, to shore up this team, right? Like, which is what Brian Colangelo is done now to give. us some, give the Sixers, give us, give the Sixers some depth.

I like that you use and us. Going into the postseason. He would have been playing, he would be like, play TLC until the wheels come off. Let's just see what happens because I'm not ever going to, I'm not ever going to compromise on what we want. What we want is a title winning team, not a seventh seed team that shores up its spot in the playoffs. But the contrary to that, it feels pretty good to be in the playoffs. It feels pretty good to be competitive every night. and they saw a team this year that probably needed some bench help. They saw some guys who were still in way, way early in the development process.

And they were like, let's go get some guys on the buyout market that can help this team right now. So it's important when you're having this conversation about what he did or didn't think about the Sixers and how he was defined by his critics is to sometimes also see things from the critics perspective. Yeah, and you make a good point about the Sixers this year and what they, I mean, last night I told you, I was ready to watch the Oscars, excited to watch the Oscars. excited to watch the Oscars and I'm, let me check in on the Sixers. And the game ended up being really interesting. And so I was sort of flipping back and forth at a moment when I should have just been watching, you know, a pop culture cultural event. Right. And like they sucked me in again.

And so it's been a really interesting fun season. And I think Sam would even cop to some of this. I mean, he did cop to it at Sloan where he said, you know, it's silly to lionize me. It's silly to, you know, put me in either box. Like the people who didn't like me or do like me, I'm somewhere in the middle, right? And the decisions that I made are somewhere in the middle. And we spent some time talking about those decisions. And he thinks about Janus, you know, and because that fits a lot of his thesis, right? And he passed on him.

Sure. And he knows that a lot of teams did. And that's a way that his people who do like Sam will just sort of explain it away and go, well, you know, 13 other teams also passed on Janus. But that's one that you would think, you know, like probably stuck with him a lot. And we watched those guys last night. And like, I was thinking to myself, my God. Can you imagine if you had Embed and Janice on the same team?

It would be killer. Right. It's easy for us to sit here and we do podcasts. And I think in the last seven days, I've said, like, maybe the Pelicans should trade Anthony Davis at the height of his value to save the franchise. And six months ago, I was probably saying Malik Monk should be the third pick. You know, I mean, we can say this stuff and it doesn't matter. Sam actually acted on those impulses and acted on impulses that maybe weren't always right,

you know. But when he traded Michael Carter Williams, who's barely in the league right now, and after a rookie of the year's season, people were just like, how dare you? How dare you get people's hopes up and people get attached to him and bought his jersey? And now six years later, nobody even remembers that Michael Carter Williams

was, he's a footnote to the team that we're watching now. So it's really about like the long tale of history and looking back on these choices that he made, both good and bad, with the perspective that we have now. And I think maybe that's why he felt more comfortable to talk. Because some of his decisions worked out. Some of them did.

but either way, none of them are done. None of them are done. It's still living. Yeah, exactly. It's a living, it's a living breathing document. And it's, this moment in Sixers' dumb is really interesting for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is what happens next, not just with Sam, but what this team, right? Because like you said, maybe a previous administration wouldn't have brought in Erson and Marco Bell and Ellie and tried to like really shore them up for this playoffs.

But also. And I don't think that they're sacrificing anything by doing that. I don't think they're not on the hook for them financially that much. It's just like it's it's really an attitudinal thing. It's a it's a persona thing. Yeah, but but what they are and what they could be moving forward is interesting because so now all of a sudden people are talking about LeBron. I was shocked at Sloan how many conversations I had with people who went,

yeah, he's thinking about it. And I was because before it just felt like Sixers fan fiction, right? Where it's like, yeah, maybe, right? Like, but he's not actually going to go to Philadelphia. And now it's like maybe he could. And if it's not LeBron, you could definitely think about, you know, and this is something that we wrote about in the piece, some other star one day going, oh, yeah, if Joel and Bede and Ben Simmons are playing and they're healthy, why wouldn't I think about going, they're young, they're super talented, the East is wide open? Why wouldn't Paul George consider it? Now all of a sudden it's a potential destination.

That's crazy to me. Yes. It is going to be an adjustment for Sixers fans to, and it's also going to be a adjustment. decision that those guys in charge of the team now, whether it's Brian or the owners and, and even the players themselves, because as we know, player power is enormous to decide whether or not what kind of help they need and what kind of assistance they need. Is it about the Jeff Teagues of the world? Or is it about the Jimmy Butler's of the world? Is it about a guy who might come in and say, like, look, I'm the headlining act. Like you guys, you guys are on my rider. Or is it, hey,

it's just I see what you guys are doing here. I'm a, I am the missing piece. I am the Paul George. And I think Paul George is actually the most attractive sort of kind of player for the Sixers because we've got young stars who are still developing. Right. But he's the kind of person who on any given night could be the number one option, but who also does all the little things that you need somebody to do.

So that's a really interesting point. Like when I was thinking... Because LeBron is a complete culture change. A total culture change. And it shifts like, it goes from, hey, this is something that we can do over the course of the next decade to everything is right now. Pretty much like everybody who I've ever, you know, Justin and I had that piece last week where we were kind of like working through my feelings about, right, about this idea

of LeBron coming. And I have been convincingly told to shut up about that in terms of just like, if you have a chance to get LeBron James, like, worry about it later. But you make a complaint. I have, I have, but the last 10 years of experience of knowing like LeBron isn't like an additional player. No, he's the guy. The guy.

The entire franchise. It changes the scrutiny your team is under. And it changes the expectations of the team. If LeBron comes to the six or six year, its finals are bust. And you know that they are going to make the moves necessary to compliment LeBron, not compliment Ben, not compliment Dario,

not compliment TLC or Fultz or Embed. It's for LeBron. And look, I want to be clear on this. That would be pretty amazing. If LeBron was like, yep, that's my situation because they're clearly my best chance to win.

and you'd have one of the greatest players of all time paired with these two guys that we're seeing become rising stars. That would be a phenomenal thing to watch. However, there is an element of it where you go, it would just be, it would be about LeBron because it's always about LeBron. And there's a reason for that. But there's an element to it. It would be somewhat disappointing because this thing has always been like homegrown. Yeah. Right?

And organic. Yes. And to see that continue in a way where you add a really good player like a Paul George, but it still is about. what it can't like everything that entire movement and that change and that shift in sixers thinking and what they were and what they could become it would be a little it would delete some of that i wouldn't say this about any other player but lebron and i'm not and i'm not trying to bite the hand that feeds me i just i wouldn't if paul george was coming to the sixers i wouldn't be like how is paul george going to change the culture of the sixers right what does this mean for dario i mean like i i i acknowledge that this is the kind of conversation people were having in 1995 where it was like i don't want my favorite punk rock band assigned to a major leobob there is something possessive. And you know what? Sixers fans are very possessive now. A little bit.

This is what happened is that the people who stayed with the team through these years have now have a very deep sense of participation in this narrative. Maybe some of them are like, if you can get LeBron, you get LeBron. If you can go to the finals next season, you go to the finals next season. If you feel like you can beat Boston or Toronto next season with LeBron, Ben, and Joel, then you do it. But every action has a consequence. And bringing LeBron James into this team would change.

everything about it. Yeah, and I wonder, I mean, you mentioned the maniacs, a bunch of them. I sound like a maniac right now. I can't believe I'm just, I'm like doing a purity test on LeBron James coming to play for the Sixers. I'm out of my mind right now. You might be too close to it. You might need to step back.

But some of our friends are those maniacs, Spike and Mike from the rights to Ricky Sanchez podcast, and they had a bus slash fly the process. And that's what, that's what this whole thing, I mean, getting back into the Sixers because they were doing something that made sense to us from an academic and intellectual standpoint had a lot to do with why everybody went to Milwaukee and screamed their heads off on the night of the Oscars and took this big road trip, right? Because people are invested in the idea. And that's like the idea of getting LeBron is, of course, like on its face. You do it, right? Because he's the greatest player ever. But also it's just like sort of, it feels almost like a cheat code.

Like you're supercharging automatically. Were we not two years away from all losing our minds? Because Kevin went and signed with the Warriors. I mean, like this is not unique to Sixers fandom. And the idea of having some kind of concept of what you want your team to be and the team winning without following that concept being a mild disappointment is not unique to basketball either. The people in soccer all the time are like, I want to win beautifully. This was like the entire genius of Pep Corriola at Barcelona was that it wasn't just, they weren't just winning trophies. They were winning it in a way where you could put their games in modern art museums and appreciate them that way. I don't know that they'll ever get that way in basketball or in that the Sixers will

ever looked that way. There's some ownership involved. There's a, there's a, that's, that's spursian idea of aesthetic quality while you're watching. And there, and the idea that these are guys that you have been rooting for since they were figments of your imagination is, is a significant thing in sports. I don't think you can deny that. If it's not LeBron, right? If LeBron goes somewhere else or stays in Cleveland, and they have to continue this, right, which is something that we do want to see in a vacuum, what is your faith level in Brian's stewardship? Like, how do you feel about the way that? Um, I would say that, um, I would say that. I am probably 50-50 leaning less than 50-50.

What is your reservation? Past performance? I think, yeah, like, there have been moments where he's... Being seduced by the now instead of, like, making sure that we're okay. And this idea basically that, you know, look, this is, if we do not get a good free agent this off-season, which is entirely possible, I think that the Fultz pick will go from being like a, ha-ha, like, that's really too bad that that happened to your number one draft pick. It's going to be a big deal.

He's supposed to be the third part of this. It is a big deal. I mean, I'm watching those videos still. I keep telling myself, like, there was more yesterday. There was more before the game where he was dunking and he was, you know, jacking up. He took a ball from Ben Simmons real quick and just jacked them up. And I was like, that looks good. As the Lakers chase this last Western Conference playoff spot or at least are like not going away.

And that pick depreciates somewhat. Right. Look, like, it's funny this year because we're used to our rookies not playing their first season. If not their first two seasons. It's not going to be that funny if next season a couple of other teams kind of around us get better

and we're forced to rely solely on Joel playing back to backs as like the thing that's the engine of us getting forward you know? And so I think that that's when Brian will be tested.

Yeah. And I think that that's when he actually will be held more accountable for the Fultz pick. I want to ask you something. Yes, please. There's a part of your piece where you start to kind of

forensically go through the league and try to identify what's the landing spot for Sam if Sam wants to come back and run a team. And you kind of lay out your criteria where he basically needs a good partnership with ownership. He needs, you kind of go through it. We never explicitly say if you had any feelings, not from talking to Sam, but even like, do we have any candidates? No. What we talked about with what does Sam do next and what does he go from here? There was a line in there that we used as a

section breaker where he said, I don't know what the odds are on me never going back, but they're real. And like that really crystallized everything for me because we went through and we talked. And we talked about it and we're like, okay, these are the things that I would need, right? And you asked me while we were going through the editing process, what do you go back as an assistant? And I thought, nah, but let me ask him anyway. And he's like, no, I would. But the big thing for him is getting to pick his own people. Right. Right. He said, well, if I could be like, you know, an international scouting director and I could bring all my guys with me. Like, that is a big, big component for him. All right. So let me ask you a couple. I'm going to throw a couple of hypotheticals, I'm right, Vivek.

Here's the keys to the kingdom. This is just me thinking about poor Sam. This is, not Sam. I would not have this conversation with him, and I definitely don't speak for him. I can't imagine because that ownership group is weird, right? I mean, like, we've seen the way they make decisions. I'll clear out everybody. You have these young players. You can do what you want going forward. If it was complete autonomy, maybe.

It would be the ultimate pick swap. It would be the ultimate pick swap. But again, like how they think about decision making and rational decision making and where you get value from and the edge and all that stuff. Rational does not. I do not associate that. Exactly. I think that'd be the heck up.

What's that? That's exactly right. It'd be hard for me to imagine that one. Dallas. Same, right? Because Cuban is the show there. And what he thought, what Sam thought he had with Josh Harris and David Blitzer in that ownership group was people who made decisions by thinking about value and finding

an edge and being left alone to do that. And Mark Cuban doesn't feel like, I think academically in a vacuum, they might have some similarities there. But in execution, he's the shark tank. rather pronounced. Yes. As Sam said in the piece, he doesn't watch Shark Tank.

Okay. Atlanta? I don't know enough about their ownership group. I don't know if they know enough about their ownership group yet. Fair enough. Because there's a lot,

I think there's a little bit of turmoil. Let me turn this on you. Do you have one in mind? I have the dream ones. Like I have, I'd love to see Sam Hinky run the Knicks. Dolan and Hinky would be a hell of a match.

Oh, I don't think it would ever happen, but I mean, I'm just a big believer that, like, basketball is better when games at the garden matter. Oh, yeah. The big market teams. And Sam building around KP, you know, and doing some stuff and having just the automatic, like, the Nixer on the phone, I'm interested. So then that means he's always looking for that advantage.

He talks about that in the piece. I'm looking for the advantage. I'm looking for the advantage. The Nixir online one is an advantage still. Yeah. I just think, like, again, it comes back to the ownership group and who you would work with and who you would work for. And I just like, I would, that would be probably lower down on my hypothetical list. We learned a lot about Sam Hinking your piece.

Maybe he loves the blues. Maybe he does. That would be great. You mentioned this, and it's something that we put into the piece. How upset would you be if this is it for him? Like, if he never goes back. I wouldn't be upset. Sam Hinky seems like he's doing great.

No, not upset for him, but like just from us as an entertainment standpoint, because I think Sam is doing great. And Sam will do great because he'll go and work with great people. And he has a fantastic life with great friends and family that matter deeply to him. He's going to be fine. saying for us from an entertainment standpoint. I want a second act. I want to say it. I would like a second act.

I cannot say that I wouldn't be bitter if he magically turned the Knicks or the Kings or the Mavericks into a powerhouse. You know what I mean? Like I would be annoyed at that. I would be annoyed that, okay, so I've got Brian Colangelo putting number one picks to work and Sam Hinkies out here.

You know, it's not like Sam never made any mistakes either in the draft. So I would be I would be interested to see him come back. I would be interested to see if he came back and tried to employ some of the ways in which Darrell, Mori, has been able to make the whole Dork Elvis analytics forward way of thinking a little bit more personable via public appearances in his Twitter feed. Yeah, I'd love to see what happens there. But we'll find out.

All right, so you have many things to do. You've got to watch. You have, is this a source to say a week? It's not a sources to say week. It is a group chat week. It's a group chat week. We'll do a little ringer FC this week. He's back.

So yeah. You have many things. You never leave the podcast studio. You never leave the ringer. You never leave the lot. You have a cot. That's right. He sleeps over.

He's Chris Ryan. Chris, thanks. Thanks, man. All right, we're going to bring Kevin and Paolo in. But first, a word from Upstart. If you've ever replied for a personal loan at banks and credit unions, you know that it's an arduous process. But it's time to skip out on the traditional loan process and check out Upstart.

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Kevin O'Connor is here. Also here, never been on the show. First timer, you've heard him on group chat, Pallowuggetti, Pollo Xco blog. What's up? How's it going? I'm honored to be here. You're here. I feel a little bit like I'm cheating on group chat,

but, you know, it's the more than area. It's very incestuous here at the ring. We're all in it together. I have a long-term relationship with this burning. I feel like I'm really cheating. It's one big weird group marriage. Kevin, you wrote a really fun piece today. I was going to talk to you guys about a whole bunch of other things.

And then per usual, Kevin O'Connor, he's constantly writing words. And I went to the ringer, which shouts to the ringer, my favorite site. Excellent sight. You too. And you. And you had a really fun piece, which was reconsidering NBA draft day debates.

So I wanted to kind of work through that with you, too. Let's take them in reverse order, though. I want to take them in order of less interesting to most interesting. So the first one then would be Stanley Johnson versus Justice Winslow. Stanley was taken eighth. Justice Winslow was taken 10th in that draft. That was a big debate at the time. I was a Justice Winslow guy.

And now I kind of shrug, like I'm kind of shrug emoji on both of them. I don't know, man. I think that's the most interesting one personally. Right now. The reason why is because Ingram and Simmons are obviously good, right? Russell and Moodye, blah. Winslow and Johnson, it's like, hmm, what are they exactly? That's what I said.

The mystery. I like the mystery. That's a very Kevin O'Connor answer. Very up brand for you to pick the least interesting guys and make them the most interesting. Well, here's the thing with Justice Winslow. You know, within the article, spoiler alert, there's a quiz that puts Winslow against another guy looking at their height, their weight, their wingspan, standing reach. and, you know, they're scoring in the half court.

And Justice Winslow, maybe, maybe a poor man's Dremont Green. If you've put him in the right situation, right circumstances, and he develops quite a little bit more than he's already at now. But perhaps four years from now, maybe he's a buy low guy for the trade market or free agency next summer in 2019. I like Winslow a lot. He hasn't panned out so far. But I think Winslow is a guy who, five years from now, could be a really, really impactful

player. I guess my question would be, you say, if he's in the right circumstance, like, he's with the Miami heat, which are thought to be like the best, one of the best organizations. So is it just like the scheme that they were, like, what is it that, that's how I feel, which is why I'm like more leaning towards Stanley Johnson side, because it feels like he's had the better situation, Winslow's had it and he hasn't been able to thrive in it. So I'm, that's why, you know, for your by low proposition, I'm more like Stanley Johnson with this. I'm committing a big sin here, but my question is, is, is, Draymond Green is an amazing player. Would he be? B is an amazing of a player if he weren't surrounded by two of the greatest shooters ever

surrounded like just a perfect situation in terms of opportunity provided. Let's just say you would- Watch yourself. Let's say, let's say, Draymond were drafted just by a different team and they were like, you know what, you're not a four, you're not a five who can make plays, you're a three. So that's what we're going to make you into. Winslow, though he'd have used him in creative ways. But the point is that Draymond Green is an unbelievable player partially because of the circumstances he's been put in.

And it's a testament to the warriors for doing that and for Draymond for thriving within it. But the point is that Winslow is the same age as Dreymond when he was drafted. So the point is, is Dreymond stunk as a rookie, at least in terms of the numbers. He wasn't Dremont. He wasn't Dremont. And circumstances. Winslow can still become Justice Winslow. Circumstances matter.

There's no doubt about it. I basically sat here this entire time doing the thinker face emoji, watching this because I was looking at you. I think like, I apologize. Mayacopa. I said that this was the least interesting one. And somehow you managed to compare Justice Winslow and Dream on Green. The headphones blew off my head.

I had to go pick them up while you were talking. Fascinating, Kevin O'Connor, because I was sort of with Palo in that, like going into that draft, I expected, I was a Justice Winslow person. I was surprised that Stanley Johnson went ahead of him. And I anticipated because the heater a good organization and because they're a really good a player development, that he would thrive in that environment, and he has not. And so because circumstances matter, I wonder what a better circumstance might look like for Justice Winslow on a team where, you know, he could have been utilized and he could have grown.

I don't know. So right now, if you were placing a bet on these two guys, your team justice over team Stanley Johnson. I put everything on Winslow over Johnson. And you still think he could become this. Like, not in my vacuum. Like, what percentage chance would you ascribe to him actually become? Forget about Dr. It's very good.

It's very, oh, I think he's already a good defender. I think he's already very good as a defender. I think he's a good ball handle already. I think he makes plays for teammates. The problem is that he can't finish at the rim, and his shot is still too inconsistent, even though the numbers are good. So will those areas ever improve?

I don't know. Draymond's still an inconsistent shooter, nobody's complaining about it. Draymond still turns the ball over sometimes at a frequent rate, gets a little wild with it. But Justice Winslow, what he needs to do is to become a great at-room finisher. Will he do that?

I don't know. That was a problem for him in college, high school and still is today in the NBA. That might never change. But Winslow, I think, is already a pretty impactful player. And he does it consistently. Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree because we've seen fossils of how good he can be defensively. And like you said, he was like the talk of that draft in terms of like steals. You know what I'm saying?

And like the Celtics wanted to trade for him. You know, it was like throwing picks out there. Six. It was like six draftics or whatever, right? Yeah. Had to get Frank. Good decision by Michael Jordan, the greatest player of all time. Yeah.

like, I don't know, I just, I still feel like we see so many times guys go from that situation and then get a different shot at a different situation and then they end up thriving in there. And I think that's like a classic Stanley Johnson situation around where he's with the Pissons. They're kind of all over the place. So I just like to see him in a better place and then have this kind of comparison because I think justice should stay in Miami. Like you would have liked to see, like there was rumors that Utah had interest in Stanley Johnson.

That would be fun. Yeah, that's interesting. That type of offense where he's playing with Rudy Gobert. then you might see Stanley Johnson finally be consistent on the defensive in the floor instead of just prancing around. You know what? You brought me back in, KOC. Stanley Johnson and Justice Winsel was the most interesting one.

All right. So the next one that you had was DeAngelo Russell and Emmanuel Mutey. I liked DeAngelo Russell coming to the draft. I was less bullish on Emmanuel Mutey. That's sort of panned out. I wonder how much circumstance played into that, although he did have some good run with the nuggets to start. And then, you know, they just soured on him.

I think DeAngelo Russell can still be a quality player. I'm not sure about Emmanuel Mudea. I am still with, yeah, I'm with you. I mean, Russell, I was in on him, but not, like, superstar status on him when he came out. But I think I've seen enough from him on the scoring output where even if he doesn't become a great defender, like there's enough there where, you know, for a team like a net's where he's at right now. Like, it just fits perfectly he can develop. Like, it's just, I'm still all around Russell.

And this is that, to go back to the circumstance point, the Lakers were probably the worst possible place for him to land. and it seemed like at a time. Initially, I was like, oh, this will be good. You know, transitioning away from Kobe. He can be the new guy. And it turned out having that one year with Kobe was horrible for him. Like Kobe and he did not get along. It was the Kobe farewell tour and DeAngelo Russell was marginalized.

And then when it became DeAngelo Russell's time, I think that he overcompensated and went, I'm the man now. I'm going to be the man. And you should treat me like the man when he hadn't done anything yet. And all of a sudden, people soured on him both internally and externally, both on the court and off, and he had to be shipped across the country to start over again. Now, talent wise, I like him quite a bit, but I think like that was a really humbling moment for him. For sure, I think that that rookie season for DeAngel Russell, back in, when I was first hired, I wrote an article about his numbers when Kobe was on the floor versus when Kobe was off the floor. And Russell was pretty damn good as a rookie when Kobe wasn't playing. The thing is, he didn't follow it up, his sophomore season, as he said. And, Now he's in a situation, you know, we just talked about with like Stanley Johnson, where he has a really, really good coach in Kenny Atkinson with the Nets. And I think he's gotten better this season before the injury happened, before he had knee surgery.

But he still has his kind of just infuriating flaw with just some of the decisions he makes on the floor. He's such a good passer. His vision's really good. But then he makes these silly mistakes that you just wonder if he's ever going to put that all together. And if he doesn't, he's just kind of going to be a good. player, but I think he has the potential to be great. It's just some of the flaws are just hard to get over. Yeah, I mean, I agree.

I think you see, and he's been injured a little bit, so it's kind of been hard to get a sense from the season, but I think going back to your point where the situation in terms of like, even off the core, as we know very well, did not go well for the end of all. Yeah, it seems like, bad idea. Keep him away from Snapchat. Just do not let him have a phone maybe. Well, luckily nobody can get in trouble in New York City.

There you know, yeah, I'm sure. Completely different. But I think the KFC's points, like, he went to literally the, perfect situation in terms of like it would be more egalitarian like shot marks and what the nets are building is more like you know just bring in role players and just have them you know go at it and I think in that

sense it may have helped temper down that you know that attitude if you will if they came over for the way I think it changed things for him I was just saying also what's the deal with DeAngel Russell just jacking up like half his shots come from midrange and then the net's the nail the nets take the second most

frequency of threes in the league so they want at-room shots they want three They want to play that style. And yet, DeAngelo Russell is the one odd duck in their rotation, just taking all mid-range jumpers. He settles so often. It's just, it's so annoying because he can be way better than he is. I like that you just went Seinfeld Observational basketball comedy there where you're like, what's the deal with that guy?

I think it's excellent. That's why we bring you on for the yucks. Real quick about Emmanuel Moody, I mean, if he does work out, it's not going to be with the next. This is like a timeout for him. Chance that he sticks in the league and he's still around five years from now. He's closer to. being back in China than he is being an all-star.

I think so, Joe. All right, last one on your piece on reconsidering it. All of a sudden, I'm like, that's enough a manual Muti-a-talk. I mentioned his name and we immediately transitioned. Pretty much how the-Dainty-C-L-Call will not be happy with us. That's pretty much how the Nuggets felt about him. The last one, which I do think

is interesting, is Ben Simmons and Brandon Engram, taking one-two in that draft. You have some interesting thoughts always on my boy, Ben Simmons. You have some interesting thoughts on Brandon Ingram. I like Brandon Ingram quite a bit. I think he's coming along and we're going to get into Lonzo in just a second. If I were going to pick one guy on that team that I think has that star potential, I'd go Ingram over Lonzo, but you're not so

sure about these two. Okay, so there's a, I sent out a tweet last week that said, oh, it's Sloan, a couple of NBA executives said to me, they would still take over. Sixers fans, I'm still banned from the Ricky Sanchez podcast, which is fine with me. You can ban me from the city of Philadelphia for if you want to. Yeah, yeah, easy, easy. This is the city of Champions. You know, like I've gone a long way towards trying to, like, help you on the PR front there. Hey, hey, I've always been a hinky truther. There you go.

Always supported Joelle Abide. But people did tell you that, like, they would have still taken Ingram over Simmons, which I think is aggressive. Is it really, though? I'm kind of with the Ingram crowd in this sense. We're going to have to cut both of your mics. So Ben Simmons, what we've seen is a virtuoso in every way except for one. And that one is a big way.

Right? I mean, that's a big thing. There's no doubt about it. And the hand thing is something that they're going to probably have to address in the off season, which what he shoots with. He's almost predominantly a right hand in the paint layup. Over 80% of his shots come off his right hand except for jumpers. And everything is in the paint and it's crazy. But he's been so good. And I think about it and it's not completely analogous, but I think about Janus when he came into the league and couldn't shoot either. And he still can't shoot the three. Better shooter than Ben, of course. Yes. And I'm stipulating that point. What I'm saying is he's a monster and he's a monster. And he's, worked on his game and he's getting better with his shot and he still can't shoot the three and it's something he still has to incorporate. But he's the honest. And we've seen how how everything else he does impacts the game, right? Ben Simmons, not a great defender in college. All of a sudden, a really good defender. I mean, he had to play last night. Well, everybody else was watching the Oscars where he took a charge and it was like, wow. Does it play Doris Burke pointed out. Yes. He was really good. Fantastic defender. Great pass or excellent rebounder, runs the floor. He has to work on that one thing. And I think he's considerably better in all those other

areas than ingram is right now. I love watching Simmons. He's become one of the most fun players to watch even in his rookie season. Like he's been so good. I'm all on the Sixers, you know, making the playoffs and seeing him beat and all that. That's where I'm kind of holding out is in that playoff scenario.

Because I think that that's where I'm curious to see how the lack of a shot gets exposed. If he thrives in the playoffs or at least shows that he can still play his style in the playoff system, then I'm going to probably, you know, lean more toward his side. But right now, I think Ingram brings the quality scoring and the athleticism that I think would translate well to a playoffs. And granted, the Lakers are not going to be in the playoffs. That's one of the caveats.

You got to throw in there. I'm just saying that's why it's kind of like I'm leaning Ingram, but it is TVD to see how Simmons does in the playoffs. That's what I'm saying. Well, I think that's what you have to weigh. And, you know, this is kind of a discussion. Some NBA people have, how much do you weigh playoff production versus regular season production? And Simmons is obviously a brilliant player. He's going to be a brilliant player for the next 10 plus years.

It doesn't matter if you can show. shoot or not. The question is, with the goal being championships or just at least one championship, does he need to be at least an average shooter? Yeah, he does need to at least be an average shooter. Right now, he's just a completely negative shooter who shoots with the wrong hand. And the question is, is what does he- How does he change it? What is his impact in the playoffs if he doesn't get better shooting the ball? And he could get a lot better. Ingram's going to get better. Simmons could get better as well at shooting the ball. I would like to point out that this is his first year. Like, let's all pump the breaks for just a quick second. And remember, as somebody who has covered the Sixers for a long

time and also likes to watch Sixers basketball, we have now raised the bar from, oh, man, you know, like tanking and all this other bullshit to not only are they going to be in the playoffs, but now we're, now we're looking at them through the prism of they better be damn good. Otherwise, like, we're going to like think about Simmons differently. I like that. I like that the narrative has changed to we're expecting great things from these two kids. And I, I think it's fantastic for Ben Simmons and the shooting thing is still going to be a question. But look at how far you've come. You know, it's really, it's really interesting.

I do wonder how much each franchise values each player. And what I mean is say, you know, we were talking a lot about LeBron and with these two teams with the Sixers and the Lakers. Like if they had to give those players up to get LeBron, who would do it? So I want to, I want to use that as a pivot point because when you talk about how much those two franchises value those players, I want to focus specific. on the Lakers. And when I had mentioned that for me, I still, it's still Ingram greater than Symbol Lonzo. KOC, you are very much on the Lonzo hype train. You like him and you put in our slack. Lanzo is good. Sorry, Isaac, which made Isaac's eyeball twitch. He was very upset about it. But you had said, KOC, that he's an elite playmaker, a great rebounder for a point

guard. Significant progress scoring. I'm less bullish on his defense than you are, but I want to know Where do we feel Ingram and Lonzo? And how do we think the organization values? Two cornerstones. Both of them. That's what I think. So if they're not getting a LeBron, you're cool with building around those two guys. I think whether you're the Sixers or the Lakers, you can win for a long time without LeBron.

Lonzo is a type of guy who just simply makes guys better. I think Brandon Ingram is a versatile guy who approved over the last month. You mentioned how Simmons is considerably better as a defender, passer, and all that, which is true. but Ingram is a damn good pass or two. He can run point. So you have multiple ball handlers. He did run point when Lonzo was out. Bingo.

It was interesting. And he was really good at him. Yes, he was good at it. He was at his best. Yeah, I mean, yeah, if you're going to keep both of them, then if that's your plan, you're not getting LeBron. But if it comes to the situation where if you need to get LeBron, you're going to need to.

You don't need to either one. You don't need to, but you wouldn't let either one. Yeah, no, you wouldn't. Obviously, those two are you guys, but I'm still team Ingram over team Lonzo. I just, I just, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, if I'm picking between, yeah, I'm definitely teaming. Like, I just, you love Lonzo. You got a little hearts in your eyeballs right now.

I love both of them. I had Ingraham rank number one. Kevin O Cop out, pick one. What do you got to pick? I don't know, why do I have to pick? This is a, because it's a check bylaws that you must, you must declare one or the other. It's in the, look, I don't make the rules. Isaac makes the rules.

Yeah. You'll have to take it up with Isaac. While we're talking about Lonzo. I'm going to keep Lonzo just to spite Isaac. I like that. See, that's a perfect answer. That's a perfect answer. That's something to the answer.

While we're talking about Lonzo, what do you guys make of Isaiah Thomas's continued heel turn? I personally love Darth Isaiah. And he would say, you know, like, all you need is one team to love you. And I feel bad for him. And I hope one team does end up loving him. But he mentioned Lonzo's, he was asked about Lonzo's shot. And I have to read this quote because I was like, Isaiah, you're saying the loud part, or the quiet part loud again.

He said, it's ugly as hell. It's an ugly shot, but he's been successful with it his whole life. So you get to the highest level. There's no need to change it. I mean, it is ugly as hell. I love that he said it out loud. And he did change it, by the way. He changed his shot,

jumped going to his right. To his left, it still looks like the jacky thing. But to the right, it's different. What do you make of Isaiah saying all this on the record? First of all, I've got to say I did not see Isaiah being the number one quote giver this season. He's by far and away has taken the prize. We need a quote index. Exactly.

And second, he's like, test him into the fact of how much. context matters. Because on the Cavaliers, he's saying this stuff, it's like, what are you doing? You know, you're about to ship you out of town. Like, you know, it just looks bad. On the Lakers, a team that's kind of got nothing to lose, it's kind of funny and like, you kind of just laugh at it

and like let it go by, you know? And it's more entertainment than criticizing, which is what he was doing in Cleveland. So, I mean, I'm all for him. Just, like, what else do the Lakers have to compel us with in Isaiah Thomas quotes? Yeah. So the Lakers have been playing better. They're probably still not going to make

the playoffs. They're, what, six and a half games out of that last spot. But the back end of the Western Conference playoff picture gang real quick before I let you go. Very, very interesting. The Spurs have not been playing well. The Thunder being the Thunder, the Nuggets are right now, as we record this, are the last spot. They're half game up on the Clippers and two games up on the Jazz. Handicap it. Who do you like to make it? Who's not going to make it? Who do you want to make it? Here's the thing. I think it's just crazy to think about the fact that I look at five through eight, even five through nine, those are all teams that I think should get in

and all of them have a shot of missing out. Do you know what I'm saying? And then the Blazers and the Pelicans, who I thought had more questions, I had more questions about them going into the season, they're kind of more safely atop... Blazers are on the theater. Yeah.

So that's, first of all, just hard to comprehend at this point, but I think there is no way that the Thunder can miss the playoffs just because they just have so much talent. But if they do, that would be absolutely. disaster. Right now I'm saying the Thunder stay in. I still for some reason think that the clippers are going to get in. There's something about them. They're not to appease the ice over

there, but I just, there's something about them that I feel like their self-awareness of what kind of team they are allows them to thrive a little more. And this is something Doc has talked about. Like, he says like, we know who we are. We're not going to try to be more than what we, you know, I'm glad that they know who they are because nobody else does. I guess that's kind of their identity, right? They're just kind of like on a given night, anybody can be our guy. You know what I'm saying? So I think that they're going to squeeze in. That would be the least interesting scenario to me. If that happens, I would be disappointed in night.

And I hate to say this with Isaac, do the year-off's thing. They're the least interesting team of the group of nuggets, jazz, clippers, thunder. I want any team but the clippers just because the narrative is not interesting to me. Gunza, I might need to cut your mic. I know. All of a sudden, you're doing my bit. KOSA, who do you want to see get in? Well, let me just say this.

We're going to find out a lot about the Spurs the next week. They have a game on Thursday against Golden State, Saturday against Oklahoma. City, and then Monday versus Houston. They have two games remaining against all three of those teams the rest of the season, including two against the Pelicans, two against the Wizards. They have a really, really hard schedule the rest of the season. And I would like to see the Spurs make it. I hope they make it because if they do make it, they're going to have to go on a good run

because their schedule is just really, really tough this next month and a half. So if they do make it, it's going to be a damn good story because they're going to win a lot of big games to get there. I didn't even consider that they might not make it until last night when I was watching the Bucks and the Sixers. And at halftime, Beatle was having this conversation where she was like, should we actually talk about this?

And I'm like, holy shit. Maybe you should. Yes, we should. Very interesting. We should talk about it. Well, you know what? Good news, gang. If you like basketball,

we should write about it. We should talk about a lot of basketball here at the ringer. Tomorrow you're going to get Kevin O'Connor and Chris Vernon, as you do every Tuesday on alternate Wednesdays. We've got sources say we've got the great group chat with Paula Ogetty and Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier

and Haley O'Shaughnessy on Thursday. And then, of course, Kevin O'Connor, back again. How many podcasts do you do now? Like 12? You like the new Juliet Lutman. We've got draft class on Friday with Charks and Danny Chow and KOC. So make sure you guys tune into all the Ringer content on the Ringer podcast network.

Plus all the basketball you can handle on the Ringer.com. We have KOC's piece. Palo is constantly writing. I wrote a story about Sam Hinky. So check all that stuff out. I want to thank Joe House, Chris Ryan, KOC, and Apollo. And of course, Isaac Lee on the ones and twos. Thanks everybody for listening to the Heat Check podcast.

We'll be back next week. Bye.