The Ringer NBA Show - Draymond Doubles Down, and Pop’s In-Game Defense of Kawhi Leonard | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

Logan, Raja, and Howard discuss Draymond Green’s recent quotes doubling down on his physical altercation with Rudy Gobert, and explore if the Warriors should consider trading Klay Thompson to bolster their supporting cast (8:59). Then, they talk about Gregg Popovich halting a game against the Clippers, where he told fans to stop booing former Spurs player Kawhi Leonard, and debate whether or not it’s okay to boo players (40:32). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if everyone said they heard your trailer a hundred times? You'd probably make a new one. I'm Justin Sales, the host of The Wedding Scammer, the ringer's first ever true crime pod. We've been hunting a con man for a few weeks now, and our hunt is coming to an end. Schemes, Heartbreak, How to Put On a Wire. We've covered all this and more, but there are still a few surprises left. Binge the Wedding Scammer wherever you get your podcasts. We're popping.

Billions. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there. Motherfucking Mondays, Howard Beck in the cut. Man, let's spread the holiday cheer. How's everybody doing?

How's everybody's break? What's going on? Howard. Howard? How was your break? What? Why am I suddenly on the spot for, like, whether or not I've properly celebrated the holiday.

I feel like there's a scrutiny coming behind all this. I don't know. I just felt. Big bah humbug vibes from you, Howard. We actually initially prepod. There, you know, happens occasionally. No, I actually had a great weekend. Thanksgiving, very big in the Beck household.

We have a longstanding tradition of going to the Thanksgiving Day parade here in New York. I am not a parade person at all, but when our daughter was small, that was the thing to do. So we went and then it just became a standing tradition with this other family, friends of ours, whose their daughters are near my daughter's age. We go and we're now so we're so locked into this routine that when we're sitting there on Central Park South, we somehow sneak onto the sidewalk. I don't know how we managed to pull this off every year, but we do. We just kind of mosey up and then we're there. It's to the point now, guys, where as the floats are going by, we're starting to be like, hey, you know, Spider-Man looks a little janky this year.

They need to do some patching. And like this year, this year, the, the Pillsbury Doughboy is going by. Now, the Pillsbury Doughboy, right, like this, this float, this balloon has probably been there since the dawn of the freaking parade, right? Like decades. And this is how you know you've been doing this too long. And we'll put it looked up and go, I think they got a new one. The Pillsbury, Billsbury Doboy looks, looks whiter than usual. He looks white.

Yes. He looks super white. glowing. He's glowing, man. He looked, I think maybe they did, and it was either the sick of a really great patch job. I don't know. It might have just been like the power spray or something, just a good cleaning in the off season between parades or something. I'm just telling you, like the Pillsbury doughboy looked very, very shiny white this year. And props to the Thanksgiving parade folks doing their upkeep on the balloons.

Shout out to the Thanksgiving Day parade. I had a good weekend, too. It was good weekend. Yeah, man. My folks had everybody over for Thanksgiving. My son's team is still playing football through the Thanksgiving weekend. So that's an honor, right? Like if your team's still kind of playing their one game away from being back in the state championship game. Yeah, I got to spend time with the kids. You know, there's something to be said for everybody hopping out to school in the morning and having some time to do your own thing.

But I start to miss them little jokers, man. So, like, it was good to have them around a little bit. Aw, that's beautiful, man. Yeah, it was good weekend. It was good weeks. Man, I had the family time. Also, I had a revelation, guys. I realized after 30 years on this earth that Holland Oates got some slaps, bro.

Holland Oats. What? What? So I have a story behind this that ties into my weekend. So Holland Oates comes on the shuffle, right? And in front of the pod, Steve Kerr has been a Holland Oates fan longer than I've been alive. obviously. And so I told him like, yo, man, holl and O's got some slaps. Like this, I can't, I can't, I can't get with that, right?

I can't go for that is like a bop, right? I can't go for that, right? It's a bop. So I'm telling Steve like, yo, this is a bop. And he's like, yo, my words to him was, I can't go for that as a blap, right? And then he says, she's gone is a, is a really good song, right and so I listen to she's gone and I report back to Steve like yo this is a bop too right and he goes to me he says hey Logan

is Blap like a euphemism for something like what does that mean does that mean anything? What is that what does that mean? And so I'd like to know too like Howard would you know what a blap was if someone just said that's a blap I would just

let it go and take it at face value but now that you've asked I want to know it's like it's a real it's like it has a good beat it's it's a black man it's a good song it's like slap but it's like it's like it's like the same thing i thought i just figured raja and howard would know because y'all are no okay everyone i learned i recently i recently learned what slat is what is slat what is flat slime life all the time oh yeah okay i mean i i i didn't know i just hear a lot of stuff i usually do take it in face value howard listen to a lot of young thug is i didn't know if Logan understood at first glance the Chet Holmgren on Kevin Durant commentary.

Do you know what I'm talking about? I forgot the direct quote. What I used, I used context clues to realize what it was. I had no idea. It just looked like gibberish. Look up the quote. Look up the quote, Howard. I want you to read it aloud for the listening audience.

This is good, this is good radio. This is good pod right here is me reading random series of fake words that I don't understand. Fake words. It is not in the Miriam Webster dictionary. It is fake. Chad Holmgren describing Kevin Durant, 54 from Treyball is OD shooting hang pulls. I just, I didn't even know where to begin with this.

Thank God somebody on the interwebs translated this thing. Are we going to dissect? Let's dissect it. Let's do it. I got the KD shooting 50 tray balls is OD. I got all of that. What is hang pulls? I'm lost.

Pull up threes. Pull up threes. Pull up threes. Hang pulls. Yeah, I guess so. Hang dribble into a pull-up. Yeah, I got it. I got it.

You know what? If Trey ball, see, this is a spelling problem, fellas. If, I'm sorry. T-R-E-B-A-L-L-1 word. If it had been like T-R-E-Y space ball, I know what a T-R-A-Ball three-pointer. Cool. Great.

But when you just mash it all together and leave the Y out T-R-E-B-A-L. I don't know what the hell that is. Since the rest of the commentary looks like gibberish to me, I don't even think that that's even a basketball term at that point. It's just another nonsense word. O-D-E-E, like that threw me. Hang poles.

All right, hanging, pull-up, jump. Okay, I kind of got it. But like, yeah. Not meant. Not meant for me is what I'm saying. While we're on it, my son, my son, Dio had an Instagram post. I mean, somebody took some pictures of him and he put him up. on a post and he said he put some caption up like young turt something or other my wife was reading

it as i was watching a game last night and she gasped i was like what happened and she's like what what is this what does this mean i was like dude i don't i don't what are you talking about so she read it and i was like i don't know that's just shit kids say she was like someone's going to look at this and think he's an idiot and i was like yeah well i was like that's just they're they're all idiots because that's what all of their captions are this show is so old now so old it's so old it's So old. Roger, I'm glad you have a partner in crime. Just as that's around you,

you can just complain about old shit too. Doug. Howard, he hasn't been able to do this for, do you want one more? Do you want one more? Let's do it. Let's go for the hat trick.

I slide by to pick my boys up yesterday. I said goodbye to my aunt and uncle who are at my folks' house. And we have forgot something from a grocery store. So my wife runs in. I drop her in the front, circle back. She comes out. And she's like,

oh my God, I love that store. She was going on about like the, the ambience in the grocery store and how small it was and what type of what type of like organic produce they had and shit like that and she was like man i'm old right i was like yeah you're fucking geeking off of like a grocery store right now you are definitely we were washed we were washed it'll happen to you man you got you got a good 20 years so you'll be fun speaking of old ass teams out of touch we'll talk about the golden state warriors boy you better

stop. I'm back, baby. I'm back, baby. I'm back. I'm back. Jremon Green, ladies and gentlemen, is the gift that keeps on giving

during this holiday season. Because after a five-game suspension, he talked to the local media in San Francisco on this football Sunday. And he was asked about his actions when he put Rudy Gobert in a headlock for all to see. few weeks back.

And they asked him if he regretted his decision, you know, to let his team down and get suspended. And this was the quote, I don't live my life with regrets. Jarmond Green said after practice, the first time he has spoken to reporters since the suspension, I'll come to my teammates' defense any time that I'm in a position to come to his defense. What matters to me is how people close to me that I care about feel first and form. most. How are they going to be affected? That's it for me. And then I got more quotes for you guys. And so there was a talk after he did these things between Green, Steve Kerr and Mike Dunleavy.

It was over an hour because Steve Kerr said that a couple weeks ago that they talked to him. No one offered insight on this conversation, but this is what Green said the consensus was. He said the consensus amongst all of us is that I'm going to be me no matter what. That's not going to change. But it's saying that there is always a better way that something can be done. So it's figuring out a better way. That's the consensus among all of us. And you think I didn't have one more quote for you guys.

I damn sure do. He was also asked about Joe Dumar saying in a statement that Green's history of unsportsman like conduct has played a role into the length of the five. game band. He says, Green says, to continue mentioning, oh, well, he did this in the past, well, I paid for those. I got suspended for game five

of the NBA finals. You can't keep suspending me for those actions. Woo. Raja, what do you have to say about this? What's going on here? What do we have to say about green tripling and quadrupling and quintupling down?

Man, there's so much to unpack there. First of all, I've been in a similar situation as someone who has been suspended by the NBA and by the league and had that suspension to at least some degree reflect some of my past transgressions. Like, I've been there and I know what that feels like. And it feels like you against the world. And so I understand that. but that's pretty much right in the immediate days after the suspension and before you can really parse through your emotions

and be rational about what happened. I think he is, but I don't think he wants to own it, and I'm hoping that's where he's at, is where he knows that that could be very detrimental to his team moving forward if he continues to cross the line. I've said this before about myself. I'll say it about Draymond. There are other players like us.

When you are playing in a league with the most athletic people on the planet, the biggest people on the planet, some of the most skilled people on the planet, and you don't fit into at least the most athletic and biggest category, well, skills have to be super sharp. You know, mental acuity and understanding of what's going on has to be super sharp. And then you have to have to be really good, especially in the role that he's asked to play for that team,

which is the physical kind of enforcer. We don't take shit from you. Like we'll protect our house. And I was asked to play at times. You have to walk a line of emotion. And sometimes it'll be just enough. And sometimes you will be over that line. And coaches, you saw Steve Kirk come out and kind of say that.

Mike D'Antone would say that about me. That comes with the job. But we as players who play like that have to have the ability a few days removed from the incident to come out and be like, yeah, I could have cost us there. I can't do that. That, you know, you have to own that because only when you own that, and hopefully, again, he's doing that behind closed doors and he has a full understanding. Because when you own that, you can try your best to guard against that. Now, I'm telling you, in the heat of battle, when you're that close to that emotional line, I'm talking about the line where you really. can't control yourself. You're, you're towing it every night. I'm borderline out of control just to

survive. So when you're towing that line, even if you know that you can't do that, you will still cross that line sometimes, but it makes it less likely because you have an understanding of like, yo, man, I can't keep putting us in these situations. If he doesn't have a full understanding of that, then I'm disappointed in him. I think he does, and I think he's just playing the media game where he don't want to give somebody the satisfaction of admitting that. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, it does make sense, Ra. But I don't believe. So while you gave him the benefit of the doubt, I don't believe that he has, I believe what he's saying is how he actually feels. I don't think he's playing a media game. I think that he is ready to say, I'm me and I'm me and I'm going to continue to be me. I don't. And hey, look, look, if that is the case, Logan, sorry for interrupting. If that's the case, then I'm, I'm not only a little probably disappointed in him, but I would be disappointed in the people around him.

Mark Ivoroni wrote me a letter. He slid it under my door. We were in Chicago after something happened in Detroit. And he wrote me a full one-page letter about, you know, behavior and him worrying that the behavior would ultimately cost our team. I assured Mark in an equally well-written letter that I slid under his door, that I was fully aware and I wasn't going to cost us anything. Like, do you know what I mean?

But the point is I had someone around me, saying to me, hey, man, this is this, this is what this looks like to us and we're a little worried about that. And if he doesn't have that, then shame on the team around him for not saying, hey, man, this is a real thing, dude. Listen, I'm with Raj on this and that, I think, one, Dremont's been through this enough times to know the routine. Not only the interview process with the league when you're going through the whole investigation, having to account for your actions, from that to the discussions with Steve Kerr and the front office to his teammate. Like all of this,

Drayman's been through this enough times. He knows the whole routine all the way through to yesterday's press conference where he's talking to the media about what he did, what he feels accountable for, what he does, and reflecting, all of that. All of that being said, I'm with Rajah on this point. I don't think that Draymond's message to us in the public yesterday is the same as the message that he would have delivered to Steve Kerr or Mike Dunleavy, Jr.

There's no way he's sitting there going like, guys, I just got to be me. We know that part of it. Steve Kerr himself has said that many times over the years as Draymond has had some of these kinds of incidents. You know, Steve Kerr says, you know, we know we walk this fine line. We want him to channel his passion. We want that edge that he brings to the court. We want him to be him.

We don't want to put any kind of limitations on him or try to harness that to his detriment. But there's a line, and you can't go over the line. There's no way that Draymond is sitting in front of Steve Kerr saying, I just got to be me. Yeah, sure. I put Rudy Gobert in a headlock, held it for, I don't know, what did people time to, what was it, like 12 seconds or some crazy amount of time. I wouldn't let go and I got myself suspended for five games and hurt the team.

There's no way he's not more, I think, reflective and remorseful in a conversation with Warriors Brass and his own teammates than he is with the media. I think Raj is right. I think some of what he's saying publicly. is where the pride kind of kicks in and throws another layer of defense mechanism on there, where he just doesn't, yeah, doesn't want to give anybody the satisfaction. And the place where I'll disagree with Draymond is this. And by the way, quick aside, Dramon spoke, I think it was for like 20 minutes or something like every time there's been something like this.

Drayman talks for 20 minutes. I love the fact that he is always accountable, amenable, willing to take all the questions. We don't have to agree with all the answer to the answer. member's dream honestly it's but it's it's more than that logan it's not just that it's great for us and it is that's the selfish version of this but just taking a step back i just i'm someone who appreciates accountability in people period in all walks of life i i appreciate the fact that draymond is willing a lot of guys would have either not taking any questions basketball questions only i'm just talking about tonight's game i'm just glad to be back all that bullshit we hear that all the time people duck

this stuff. He never ducks any of it. And I do appreciate that part of it. I think he's wrong when it comes to the whole, like his history playing a part in this. One, the NBA does this with everybody who's got a history. Everybody who's like, whether Dennis Rodman, Rashid Wallace, whoever, if you're somebody who has had either a lot of texts, a lot of flagrants, a lot of incidents on the court, yeah, your history plays in because what the NBA is trying to do with the disciplinary measures with suspensions and fines and everything is to try to get you to rein yourself in a little bit. And if you don't, then yes, the punishment starts to escalate over time because you're showing that you have not been able to rein yourself in and adjust

accordingly. Isn't that how punishment works anyway? I mean, in school, you start messing up. You get in school. You mess up again. You're suspended for a certain amount of day. Like, there's steps towards expulsion, like legal system. You know, if you're a multi, I mean, right, that's how it works. If your history, he has to play a part in it. Yeah, they've got to have a term like recidivist. If you were a recidivist in the legal system,

like you, it amps up every time that the punishment gets, gets greater. So like that's, that's the whole world. So I don't, he's, he's not being punished because of game five in the finals.

It's that plus all these other things that have happened since. And the league is, is responding to that accordingly. So like, I don't, I don't see how he can really object to it. That's, that's a longstanding.

system of discipline. Yeah, and that's the dangerous part. They're trying to curb your behavior, right? Like they're trying to, they're trying to, if you would, if one or two infractions and you get the point and they don't have to deal with that any, again, message received, we got it.

If they keep ramping up the, the suspension and the punishment, and you keep crossing the line, now you are in jeopardy of really costing your team in a significant way. Like, it just happened to be game five, which was huge, the first one. But if that's a random regular season game, nobody's really tripping off of that. It's one game.

But you start missing five games. Now you have another one. You're missing, you know, eight, ten, 15 games. Like, those are really putting your team in a really bad spot. And that's, that's, I'm glad you said that, Roger, because that's how I've been feeling about the Dremont suspension. And also the Dremont Experience Post last title. right, where he's continually doing these types of things

and whether it's punching a teammate in the face, whether it is putting someone in a headlock, whether it is just not being the best mentor in the locker room. It is a continual cyclical thing. And all the while, Rajah and Howard, the warriors have doubled down on Draymond when even if, even we've seen the finals, even in his play has not suggested that he had,

as, you know, warranted the doubling of down, even if it was just his play and not necessarily his actions. And I think that that's going to have long-term ramifications for this group, right? Like before, you know, Dremont went on, had the suspension, they were what, like, they were a really good basketball team, or at least they were playing really good basketball. Like, we can't really, it's too early to suggest what type of team they are right now, but they were six and three.

They were, the chemistry was going great. the hope is you're going to bring Ramon into the fold and then he gets not only does he get it's funny that they're talking about how or he's talking about how they're using old things to go against me

I mean the game before you get this ejection after headlocking someone you get ejected the night before against Cleveland like it's a continual thing and there's no account of even if they did have an hour long talk with him there's no accountability

from Draymond because it doesn't have to be, right? The front office isn't really disciplining him or actually laying down anything. They're giving him, he gets emboldened by getting a new contract with a player option. So when that happens, Raja, what is there like to even say to a guy that even if you do say, hey, Tremont, man, please stop doing this. Please stop headlocking the opponent and punching your teammates. But, you know, we got this four-year deal. here for you and we want you to retire here.

Like I don't like you can't have it both ways and when some like the actions are the actions. What the hell do you do? You can't you don't have any control at that point. You can't really do anything. That's the danger of of rewarding that type of behavior. Now there's more to it than that when you're when you're talking about team building this championship run, you know, dynasty type of legacy, what he means to the framework of that team. and being the heartbeat of it, there's more to it than that.

But at face value, like plain and simple, when you reward, you know, behavior like that, over and over again, when you can't just curb it by appealing to someone and saying, hey, man, please, like, you can't do that. That's like having a child, and at home you let this child talk to you any kind of way. I see it all the time.

You let that kid talk to you all kind of crazy ways. He ain't got no respect or she has no respect for you. talking greasy, then you get out in public and they embarrass you. And now you're trying to plead with the kid. Hey, please stop. Hey, don't do that. Don't do that to mommy. Don't do that to daddy. That kid is like, fuck that. This is what I do. That boy, you're going to act new now. You can't act brand new on me now. This is the dynamic in this house. And so, you know, that you've put yourself in that position as an organization. And quite frankly, this has nothing to do with Dremont for me. This is broad, you know, painting with broad strokes here. And I say it all the time on the pod when you

asked me about disciplinary situations in organizations, I typically come off on send a message side with the Draymond thing, send a message now that we can't tolerate that. Like, I might not be any good at that job. So, but I'm telling you who I am. I am the guy that sends a message. I would like to do that just to get it on wax that this is how we are going to operate if these, you know, infractions or transgressions, whatever you want to call them, keep popping up. I've set standard, you know, and I've let you know what I will and will not tolerate,

and here's how we're going to, here's how we're going to act. But if you don't do that early and with a firm hand, especially in a league where dudes are used to being, look, everything for an NBA player is taken care of. Every single thing, I can't speak to other leagues, but I'm sure it's probably the same. You do very little for yourself other than really get out there and work towards your goal of being the best basketball player and the best teammate and trying to win a championship.

But the rest of your world, interviews are scheduled. You know, media availability is set up. You know, doctors appointments are set up. If you got to go to the dentist, you walk right in that bad boy, boom, set up. Your travel, like you're living in this bubble. So dudes naturally, once you're in that bubble,

even if you're not like that, when I went into the league, I was coming out of the CBA, where it was the antithesis of that. Like, just grimy, dirty, travel suck. You know, you felt like you weren't even a pro. So I was appreciative and grateful and just really, you know, excited to be there. Man, I was in that for seven, eight, nine years. You start to become accustomed to that life, bro.

You start to take it for granted a little bit. You think this is the real world. And some of those bad habits that you didn't have at the beginning are now in place. So you're dealing with people who have been conditioned to have bad habits in terms of what they think they can and can't get away with anyway. So if you empower it even further, you have some sticky situations on your hand. The bottom line to me is this. And this part of it has not changed in seven, eight years or whatever with the Warriors. They know who Draymond is, all of his his best attributes and all of his worst. They accept the full package of it. And they've made that bargain long ago. And they're fine with it. Each time something happens, and especially

the last two things, two major things that have happened, the Rudy Goberr incident and the Jordan Pool Punch. Those are pretty extreme. But the Warriors also have been with Draymond long enough, and he's been with them long enough. They know everything else that he's about. They know all the positives that come with it. They know how essential he is, this entire era. They know they're trying to still extend that era and try to tack on another title or two while Steph is still playing at an MVP level. So, to me, nothing has changed. Like, that was the calculus. That was the decision they made, the bargain that they struck with themselves. And I think they're fine with it. I really do. I agree 1,000 percent. They definitely are. And if you were going to say at the beginning,

hey, look, you're going to have to go through seven suspensions ranging from one to two games to five games. But the end result is you're going to have four championships in this window, maybe five, and all of this other great stuff. They sign up every time. It's a no-brainer. They're like, yeah, let's do that. And just to be clear, I'm not saying they're fine with individual specific actions, right? They're not fine with the headlock on Rudy Goberra. They're not fine with the punch.

They are fine with the broad outline of the deal, the bargain that they have struck with themselves and with Draymond and with the idea that you're going to take. There's always going to be something. You don't know what it's going to be. Something's going to happen. But within reason, we're going to accept it as part of, of, of the overall package and we're okay with it because he is that important to us competitively. And also there's a lot else about him to really love as a player and as a person.

It's just those moments. It's just these these moments that jeopardize them and jeopardize himself and put him in a bad light. But I think they also know, Dremont is not those moments. Those are his worst moments, but those moments do not define Dremont Green, the person. They know the totality of him. And that's why they're okay with it. That's well put. I appreciate that.

And let me, I just want to piggyback off of that because I talk a lot about how, how important like just a general role guy is to winning championships. You know, Logan, we've often talked about that. Let's talk specifically about the role guy that is your, your, your tough backbone guy. You could get away with having, your, your heartbeat can't play without that. I mean, you could play without a different kind of role guy. but the heartbeat, you can't play without that. I mean, you can't play, but you can't be successful at the level

that you're accustomed to being successful at or live up to the standards that you have in place if you're out there trying to compete without that heartbeat. Every team needs the guy that just raises that competitive level that doesn't take shit. We're all super competitors, but not every competitor in the NBA is physically demonstrative and abrasive in a way that would tell someone,

hey, man, you better stop fucking with us. And teams need that, especially teams that, that aren't at least to the naked eye, big, physical, strong, intimidating, right? Like, you need somebody that if, if Steph is approached wrong,

they got, they have to worry about Draymond coming over the top and choking them out. No, I'm dead ass, dead ass, though, because otherwise it's open season on Steph. Yeah. Yeah, it's what I agree with you on that point. The key for Draymond is, though, is that he can't lose his own locker room, which is what he did last season. And, you know, at times, I don't know about this season, but I know it last season, it's well documented how he lost that locker room.

And I think my biggest thing with the Warriors, and I want to get you guys' opinion on this as well, but it's a lot of like, yeah, Draymond did this. Clay did this. These people did this. But like right now, if you watch this team, it's a team pretty stuck in the past, trying to throw old sets, but they're not working because, you know, Clay now is not the guy that, you know, is the crucial piece to a title right now. He's a guy that wants to get a new deal, right? And he's playing like a guy that really wants to get a new deal and is shooting,

not playing within the offense, right? And then you have a guy like Draymond is like, I am who I've, I've, always been, but he's the same guy that is getting taken out of finals games, which was unheard of three, four, five years ago, right? But there's a team that's saying, hey, we want to still compete

for titles. I don't know how you live in that middle. Is there a move? And I'm not, I'm kind of off Draymond as a time, but like say, there's a Zach Levine out there, right? There's a DeMar de Rosen out there. Raja, put your

front office hat on right now. are you saying, you know what, this was great. We celebrate these guys, but it's time to move on. We still want to make sure we make the most of the last few years we have about a Steph who's playing at an MVP high level. The answer to that is Zach Levine. I love DeMarrozen, but I think the answer for me is going to be more Zach Levine. And it's not even saying one's a better player than the other, but 28 versus 34, I think.

They need to get, we've been saying it for a while. They need to be younger. They need to have young. young, youthful energy that scores the ball from the wing position. Steph and Clay will go down as the best shooting duo ever. But Clay hasn't been, Clay wasn't himself. We were saying it on the pod like last year. I know the year they won the chip, like he had moments, but I was watching it.

Like, man, why is he shooting that? What is, like that was a shot for the old Clay. That doesn't look like the new clay is supposed to be doing. on that like you you're not the same guy and that's okay that happens that's not to take anything away from your greatness um but they they need that in a big way and so if there was a way i'm not saying draymond if i could hold on to draymond i'm telling you right now i'd hold on to draymond trade wiggins or clay or somebody and the guys that have not been playing well maybe sold him to a clay and cp3 if that could get me if clay and cp3 could give me a combination of zach levin

and something else that that I know could play. It doesn't have to be a great player, but I know it can get out there and get quality minutes in NBA games. Stamp it for me. But no, I don't have the ties to that run like listeners may have. Do you understand what I'm saying? Sure. I mean, Howard, we saw that last year with the Lakers, right?

Didn't work. Let's fucking trade and let's get a, let's get a, we at least try to get a contender, right? And then you trade Westbrook, you get a bench. like, do you think that would be in the cards? I know the warriors have been very hesitant to trade this group. And I get why in theory, but in practice, it just doesn't seem like the right call. Do you think that they should just, hey, let's get some new blood up in here?

I mean, the obvious difference being that Russell Westbrook didn't help the Lakers win for championships, right? Russell Westbrook wasn't, you know, the primary tag team partner to your franchise star. Russell Westbrook had no history with them to speak of period. And in his very brief time there, it just wasn't working. And it was obvious from the moment he arrived. So it's easy to decide to extract even though. And by the way, it still took them forever to finally do it. Like it was obvious to the rest of the league way before it was obvious to the Lakers what they needed to do. Credit to them for finally course correcting, but it took a long time. But Westbrook wasn't the right fit. Clay, I mean, this is not just about the sentimentality attached to this, although I think that is a large part of it. it's it's it's everything he's done for them and with them it's what he's meant to step it's what those three have meant to each other drayman step clay like breaking that up even if you decide that you know what clay is not the old clay anymore and we have an opportunity to get younger more competitive and extend this run with step like that is your obligation right like broadly speaking the obligation of the franchise is to be all in on step at all times while he's still playing

at an MVP level and he is so you should be will be willing to I'll say this because I've said it many times before, but I am going to contradict myself slightly on this one. You should be willing to do whatever it takes at all times to extend the run to maximize Steph's time at an elite level and try to win more championships. And if that means sacrificing some vets to get younger and more competitive, more versatile, on principle, I say you should do it. But I hesitate because it's freaking Clay Thompson. Like, I just, I do also say a lot with teams at that level that when you pull one thread, sometimes the whole thing unravels. And sometimes it's not even a player of Clay's caliber and stature.

Sometimes it's, you know, maybe it's a nigga dollar or Sean Livingston or something else. But some, and even with teams that are not champions, right? Like sometimes you just have the exact right pieces together and they're better than the some of their parts and you take one guy out. maybe he's just a shooter. Maybe he's a defender off the bench, whatever he is, but something about the way they all work together.

That was my fear for the Celtics in swapping Marcus Smartup for Chris Stap's Porzingis. Like they look phenomenal. They clearly are going to be just fine, and that threat is not going to unravel the whole team. But I did think about that. I did think about that. Sometimes it just changes the entire feel and chemistry of a team.

I could totally appreciate that. And you would be right in some instances. I would also say that, while I said very bluntly and harshly that I would do that, you know, I wasn't, I, too, as a former player and as someone who admired what Clay's done and the achievements and accomplishments that they've had out there in Golden State, like that would be really, really hard pill to swallow. I answer that purely based off what I think would make them a better basketball product on the floor. So you do have to take all of that into account.

I would just say, though, and I would be interested, like this isn't Bob, Myers, you know, who's been there for the whole thing. Like, this is, this is Mike Dunleavy now, right? And I would just, Steve Kerr came into Phoenix, albeit we had not won championships or anything like that. But he said to me, like, I remember this. He said, you have a small, he said, you have a small window of time when you get a new job to affect change. And that stuck with me, wherever I went. And so I would just say that he did that as a general manager coming into a situation like Phoenix where we were winning a lot of games. Now, we had not gotten over the hump. I understand that. But it would just be, it would just be interesting to, for me, if you could sit

down with Dunleavy and just get a just get a conversation over a few beers somewhere where he was just bearing his soul, is he is attached to it as maybe Howard we think he should be. You know what I mean? Something else. Sorry, real quick reference point that reminded me of, Raja. When the sons traded Sean Marion for Shaq. When you think about how the sons became the sons with Nash, Marion, Stoutemeyer, there was a certain chemistry and just a certain kind of combination of factors and personalities and player types that made them special for that run, even though they couldn't break through. And in the quest to break through, they swap out Sean Marion for Shaq and completely change

who they really are. And I don't know. That was the first one that came to mind. Yeah, but I always say this. people laugh at me when I go to basketball camps because they asked me who was who was the engine that kind of drove the sons and you often get Steve Nash this is a little bit off topic but I think it it does relate like you're you often get Steve Nash right or Amari and I always tell him no no clearly none of that gets done without Steve right but Sean Marion was the actual piece on the floor

that paired with Steve to make that that engine run because of his ability to get from rim to rim, you know, and put pressure on a defense. If you watch a lot of those clips of us running down and being freed to shoot threes, it's Sean Marion that's on top of the rim that's causing the defense to collapse and then Steve's able to spray it out. So you are right in that sometimes it's not the person you think, Howard, that would unravel it and unravel like the team's ability to do what everyone thinks they should do, right? Obviously, someone would be like, it was X, Y, and Z. And somebody on that team would be like, nah, no, it wasn't. It was, it was, it was, it was A, B, or C?

I think that, before we get to the next topic, because this has been a long one, I think that it's on Steph to push the button. Like, the reason why Draymond is still there is because of Steph, the reason why I think that Clay is still there and they haven't made a drastic move, the reason why they traded away ultimately Jordan Poole, it all leads to 30.

So he is going to have to push the button or at least say, yo, we need a change. Just give the signature. Just sign off. Yeah, just sign off. I mean, I've seen on television and games, his face when shit goes awry, which it's going to rye a lot this season. It's not happy right now. It's really not a fun team to watch this season at all.

But it's going to be on 30 to push the button. And it remains to be seen if he does. Let's go to the next topic after a break where we talk about how to treat a player when you send him off. And we are back, ladies and gentlemen. I wanted to talk about, it's been a long break. And one of the things that really caught my eye that I wanted to bring to the discussion is Kauai Leonard and his relationship with the San Antonio Spurs. Now, this stems after a recent trip to San Antonio with the Clippers. where he was booed mercilessly.

And Greg Popovits did an unprecedented thing where he takes the mic from the scorers table and says, hey, guys, enough with all that dilly dallying. Stop booing. Dilly dally. All that shit. Stop it.

We don't do that here, San Antonio. We don't boo one of our own, which was interesting. Where do we stand? I'll start with the Rogers, is the former player. Where do we stand on booing? Because I thought that was a little over the top.

Relax. That was over the top. People forget how he left San Antonio, though. Right. The fans don't, but like the general public, it's been a while. So people might forget that there was a big deal, if I even remember correctly,

I think I do, about whether he could play versus whether he couldn't play and them saying, you know, some people accusing him of being able to play but not wanting to play. So like in that space, I could see where fans, of the San Antonio Spurs

wouldn't forget something like that. They've watched his successes, you know, since he had left. They felt like he was a homegrown product and he was theirs. Like, I could see where they harbored feelings about that in a way that casual NBA fans had kind of forgotten.

I don't know. Booing is, I'm not an anti-boo guy. I'm an anti-boo your own team guy. I never understood that. Like that seems really stupid to me. Like booing your own team at home, it's not helping at all. But I don't necessarily have a problem with a guy getting booed.

If he's on the opposing team and y'all don't rock with him, I guess I don't care. I thought it was a G move by pop. Pop's like one of the only dudes who could pull that off. But it doesn't bother me personally. I got booed every. I went back to Staples. I got booed.

Like, what are we talking about? I wasn't even Kauai Leonard, bro. I was booed mercilessly at Staples for the Clippers and the damn. Hey, the feel was not helping your ass out. Phil was not going to say, hey, guys. Yeah, yeah, chill, chill, chill, chill. At all. Clippers and Lakers, bro, Clippers and Lakers.

You were enemy of all of Los Angeles. That's ridiculous. That's a way, hold on real quick. That's a wild city to be like an enemy of, bro, because I know you want to go to L.A. chill every fucking time. Bro. I have people run. You can't get booed in like,

I don't want to say no cities because, you know, we got a lot of real ones everywhere. But like, you know, like get booed in L.A. That sucks. Bro, I had,

when that stuff happened, man, it was so crazy. Man, I had people in the streets of Beverly Hills out walking with my little young sons saying really wild shit where I'd have to get security to grab my, my boys.

Like, do you know what I mean? It was really ugly for a while, man. Like I had a dude wait for me outside of the, where were we, man? We were at the Beverly. No, no, that was the Wilshire.

But we were down in Santa Monica, where we? Damn, I don't even remember. The Lowes, Santa Monica. I had to do away for me just off property. Just off property waiting for me to leave. Just, he waited there all day. And I waited for his ass because I wasn't leaving. Until he left.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, bro, you can't even go to the beach. I can't even get. The lows in Santa Monica right behind it is the beach, bro. like, and you can't even go. Damn. That was so, so, so booing. I mean, it comes with the territory.

If you, if you are persona non grata for that fan base. I just take exception to people booing their home team. That, that's, that stinks. I thought that whole scene was much more indicative of pop than the fans or co-ire. Like, that was really. And I don't, as I say that, I don't, I don't know what, I don't know what it's telling us about pop other than, uh, is this.

just getting kind of soft in his in his old age where like he's just feeling more reflective. He did have some quotes a couple days later that I thought were interesting because again, like to be clear, booing is part of sports. Fans are going to boo. Boo the home team, boo the road team, whatever. Boo the guy who like booing the guy who abandoned your team, like that's as old as sports, right? People of San Antonio feel that Kawhi Leonard abandoned them. And then he went and won a championship with another franchise and now he's with yet another team. It's been a while. Like I could say get over it.

But like it's not for me to say. They're their fans. They're invested. That's their team. Fine. They're going to do what they do. As long as it's, you know, held within it to a certain standard, right? Like I've seen some pretty ugly shit.

We can talk about what happened when LeBron went back to Miami for the first time back in 2010. Ugly scene I've ever seen in person. Not the ugly scene in sports history, folks, but just the ugliest that I have personally witnessed in person. But booing is just booing. I don't think that's that big of a deal. So I was more interested to like, pop going to that extent. It's not like,

it's not like that the spurs need to mend fences with Kauai because they want to bring him back or something. Like, I don't think that's ever going to happen. I don't like that. So if you try to think of like all the other, like possible motivations,

there really aren't any. So he gets at, he was really snippy post game pop. did not really elaborate. But a couple days later, there, I think they were in San Francisco. Yes. And he says, I think it's indicative of the way the world works now.

There is enough hate in the world where I think it's totally inappropriate. It's not what you teach your kids to do. And then on a practical level, it hurts us more than it hurts us. It hurts us more than it hurts them because it just pokes the bear and makes them want to stick it to you even harder and it hurts your team. So it doesn't make any sense. It's unwise in every level. I have no regrets whatsoever. Wow, every segment of this show today is somebody.

having no regrets whatsoever. No regrets. So the first part of it, the first sentence was what I thought was interesting. It's indicative of the way the world works now. So I think like this is pop. He says there's enough hate in the world. Like that's, I think that maybe is like the psychology behind this.

He's just kind of looking around like, man, all this negativity. We're dealing with it all the time. And we know that pop is someone who's very outspoken politically. And that, that, you know, obviously inflames a certain part of, of NBA fans, certainly Spurs fans in Texas. I'm sure there are plenty that disagree with him. So maybe this is just more about pop internalizing, just kind of the state of the world and all the tension that's out there.

And we live in really dicey times. And I don't know, maybe it's that because the booze aren't that big a deal. The first time that I was, Mike Finger from the San Antonio Express News wrote about this, that the first time that Kauai had gone back, they cheered Danny Green, who was part of the trade. Every time they showed Danny Green, they cheered Danny Green, but they chanted traitor when they showed Kauai or when he was shooting free throws.

Which is funny because the spurs traded him. Was this hilarious? Well, but he demanded the trade, right? Kauai wanted out. So it's fine that they hold it against Kauai. Again, I'm not faulting them for that. But they treated him much more harshly in his initial returns, as you would expect, than in this most recent one.

So that pop is deciding to put his foot down now. Now, again, there's something more about the way Pop is thinking about this or interpreting this now than it is about anything else. Are you saying, Howard, that now that he has a once-in-a-generation player, that he wants other players to play alongside of, that he wants to push up the propaganda. Like, no, man, like, hey, we love our players in San Antonio. He's not speaking to Kauai necessarily. He's speaking beyond Kauai and putting his bullhorn to the rest of the league saying, hey, come to San Antonio. We treat our players well here.

Ain't nobody listening to that. You're talking about the... I mean, he might be, but the rest of the league, I mean, that's not appealing enough pitch and appealing enough pitch. Stopping the game? To otherwise go to San Antonio, though. Like, do you know what I mean?

I mean, if you weren't inclined to go to San Antonio because of the situation in the finances, that's not getting you over to hump as a player. I promise you. Okay. Listen, I was... You might be... right. You might be right though. Plain devil's advocate. You can be 100% correct. And I'm just saying

Pop. I appreciate the try, but that's probably not it. And it's possible, Logan, like I'm not going to dismiss it. Like, sure, anything's possible. It's possible in the moment split second decision. He says, ooh, I can, I can show what we're really about here and send a subtle message to the whole world because we might want to recruit some, some stars to go with Lombiniamma soon. Maybe, maybe. I just, it didn't strike me. that way in the moment. And to Roger's point, like, I don't think any amount of, like, trying to, you know, appease or placate anybody is going to somehow make San Antonio more attractive for agent

destination. And the NBA these days anyway, it's more about trades than free agency anyway. And in the Spurs case, like most small markets, usually it's about drafting. So you put SOA point card, you lose a ton of games and you get another high pick. you're still trying to find other players through the draft at this stage. Howard, I think you're right in terms of like, you know, Pop and where he's at as a human being right now. And I would just say from my interaction with Pop, having spent a training camp there, been cut.

Him and a lot of people don't know this, but the reason I was able to catch on with the Sixers was because Pop really liked me and put a call in to Larry Brown, who was one of his best friends, pick me up out of the CBA because I was injured that year. I hadn't really played in the CBA. So I was dumbfounded as to why the Sixers would have called me out of all the people. But it wound up being a pop call to Larry Brown that got that done. And then I played against him for my entire career. And every exchange I ever had with him was really genuine and really reflective. And he's just like a salt to the earth type of dude. And so I think just deep down, like as a human being, he's like, dude, what are we what are we doing?

Like, yeah, Kauai, that didn't probably end great. And I don't know how it ended personally with Kauai and Pop. I know Kauai and the Spurs didn't end great, but, you know, I don't know what that personal relationship was like. But even if it didn't end poorly, Pop doesn't strike me as the type of dude that's trying to hold that for decades until people retire and then they have to have a sit down on on real ones to like hash it out. Do you know what I mean?

I like what you did there. I like what you did there. But Pop doesn't, didn't strike me as a dude like that, man. And I think he is more about like, hey, bro, look, that was in the heat of the moment, however many years ago. You've had a great career. We had great times together. Why has it got to be like this?

Yeah, he sees him as one of his guys, right? Like he's as protective of him. Ultimately, no matter how it ended, Pop is as protective of Kauai Leonard probably as he would be of Tony Parker, Manon Genobbly, Sean Elliott, whoever. At the end of the day. At the end of the day, absolutely. And think about this too. This is an organization where like Sean Elliott's one of the broadcasters and has been

for many, many years now was part of the first and second championship, or just the first, maybe the first two. And, you know, Tony Parker still, you know, pops in now and then, right? Tim Duncan's still around. Like, David Robinson's always there. This is an organization where once you are, you know, part of that team, it's, you know, they're, they embrace you. You're part of the family.

And they want to bring you back. And I'm sure Pop feels a certain amount of just kind of protectiveness of Kauai Leonard. last question i have for the panel started with roger what is the what is the right way to treat a player that has left you of that magnitude as a fan as an organization as a as a fan an overall organization both yes man yes is yes well again i'm not speaking as a like i'm I cheer for very few teams, like a real fan. If somebody were to leave the University of Miami under murky circumstances, Raja.

Yeah, I'm going to sit here and tell you, my 15-year-old self and all of his University of Miami fandom had the transfer portal existed, and Kenny Dorsey or Willis McGahey or one of those dudes pulled up and bounced on us in the middle of our years, I would have had beef. I would have probably booed them when they came back. As an adult, I'd like to say that I'd like to appreciate the times that we did have together, bro, all the championships that we won.

All of the, you know, watching you grow up from a kid out of, where did you come out of Long Beach? What school did Kauai come out of? San Diego State. San Diego State, not being able to shoot the ball to what you turned into. Yeah, but, you know, I'd like to be able to say that. So I would just say there's no great answer for how a player should, I mean, a fan should, should. should receive someone coming back. I can't give you that answer.

But as an organization, I think you should always be classy. I think you should always have a level of class. Now, the level of class we have is going to depend on how you left. You know, if it got real messy and stuff like that, I'm not getting down in the mud as an organization, but maybe I don't go overboard with my classiness and my celebration of who you were as a player. But if it was, you know, if it was great and we just, you know,

didn't work out at the end of the day, I think a classy send-off is the best way to do it. I don't think you should ever antagonize. It's a terrible message to send to the rest of the league. Being a fan is an emotional investment above all, right? Like, that's what fandom is. You're emotionally invested in a team and players, whatever. So, like, and sports brings, like, the full spectrum, right?

Joy, anger, frustration, sadness, all this stuff. So that's it. that like the guy left you he won you a championship and then he decided i'm out i mean it was a few years later but when he decided it was time to go you know fans feel burned like i get that that that's fine you want to boom when he comes back again like i'm not gonna i can't argue the point because you're trying to tell people what emotions they should feel like that's that's impossible um but yeah from an organizational standpoint that's why we see as we see like tribute videos down to like the you know this two-way player is now with a different organization.

He played five minutes with us last year, but he's going to get a fucking five minute. Rogers's like, what the fuck, man? Yeah, man. Roger,

what they do to you when you go back to Phoenix? Bro, I missed out. Wait, so you telling me I missed that. What? I had a bell tower, very special group of people,

man. They were still up there ringing bells up in the upper deck. They were, man. My ladies, man, those are my girls. Shout out to the bell towers.

Shout out. But other than that, bro, not a ting. Well, the video tribute thing kind of got more like out of control in the last like five to ten years. Like I think it's more kind of almost after your time, Roger.

Like, now they're everywhere. Now everybody gets them all the time no matter how long or short you spent with a team. But that's fine. Like that's the organization trying to show that, you know, hey, we are a class organization. We appreciate our former players

no matter what level they were and all that stuff. That's fine. But fans are fans. Fans are fans. And you're always, always trying to put on. If you're, if you're, everything you can do in the space of making other players that aren't in your organization feel like you have a first class organization and somewhere they would want to be, it behooves you to do that. At every turn, people are always watching.

So, I mean, I would just practice that if you're an organization. Well, I'm a fan of you both unconditionally. Dude. That is, uh, that is, uh, I appreciate that Logan's not booing us, Raja. That's nice. He's not booing us. It's great. He obviously can't boo the home team.

You can't boo the home team. He took Pop's message to heart. Yeah. You know it. That has been another edition of motherfucking Mondays on the real ones. Thanks to Howard Beck. Thanks to Raura. We will see you guys on Thursday.

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