The Ringer NBA Show - Draymond Is Back, and Should We Be Worried About the Bucks? | Real Ones

Episode Date: January 8, 2024

Logan, Raja, and Howard Beck are back to discuss Draymond’s return to the Warriors after his suspension, as well as what his impact on this version of the Warriors can be (2:00). Then the guys determine if everything is okay with the Milwaukee Bucks in light of Giannis’s recent comments and the team’s struggles (42:00). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if you got scammed? Would you suffer in silence, or would you do something about it? Well, I got scammed once, and this is the story of what I did. I'm Justin Sales, the host of the Wedding Scammer, a true crime podcast from The Ringer. And for seven episodes, we're hunting a comment. A guy with a lot of aliases, a guy who's ruined a lot of weddings. And with the help of some friends, I just might be able to catch him. Listen to The Wedding Scammer on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Roger Bell, aka A.A.U. You dad, quick to put a foot in your ass. A.k.a. Defensive stopper to boom from Florida with love, aka. Fuck with me and meet your demise in seven seconds. Let's go. Howard Beck, aka. Beck, aka. Notorious, What Up Beck. A.k.a. the all-time ally, aka White Man Can Right. Go. Logan Murdock, Town Propaganda Pursher, aka Mac Murder, the West Pop and Pappy, aka Lord of the Fittie Vittie's Live in your city city. You know the motherfucking vibes. You know you need it in your motherfucking life.

We gonna slay, because if you ain't heard, this is my mom. Mother fucking Mondays. What's popping? Y'all know what it is. Motherfucking Mondays. We are back for 2024. Happy New Year, Howard. Good to see you, bud.

By the Larry David rules, we are at the very, very, very edge of when we can say it. But happy New Year, guys. It's good to see you. It's been a while. You've had a few shows without me since I last saw you. Where were Larry's rules? I mean, phenomenal show.

I just forget what his rule was. I think Larry David's, I can't remember the exact date, but at some point within like the first day or two of January, he's done. Like it's that's over. Like no more happy New Year, no happy holidays. It's over. That's a good rule. We can't drag it out too long.

I'm not going to lie. I do. I think there's a curb your enthusiasm feel to this show at times, especially with the addition of you, Howard. There's a little, there's a, there's a funny curmudgeon vibe. We already had that from Raja and now you're in the building. It's a little bit. Kerm, get the, get the sound effects to make sure. that we know that this is like a curb type vibe.

We need to get more curb stuff up in here. All right. Thank you. Appreciate that. Anyways, we're here for a new year. We are on the brink of the return of one Jarmon Green. I was awakened by a notification that he was doing a podcast that I immediately sent to Raja and Kerm and the chat.

It was a long rambling. response. Howard saw the whole thing. Roger saw a little bit of it. I saw a little bit of it and I pretty much got the point. My question to you guys is, and I'll start with Howard on this one, is this iteration of the Warriors ready to observe this iteration of Draymond Green? That's a really interesting question. I'm really, actually, I'm very much looking forward to Raj's interpretation of all this just because as a former player and as someone who's seen all this from the inside. I think it's it's probably hitting Raja differently than it would hit you and me, Logan. But it's interesting question, Logan, because this is obviously not the most

veteran version of the Warriors, right? Like a Draymond flare-up in 2016, 17, 18, 19 with Sean Livingston and Andre Godala and all these vets still as the foundation there next to Steph and Clay is one thing. But this is, highlighted by Draymond's absence, this has become a really young team. Like we've got the two extremes. It's Steph and Clay. And then it's a bunch of rookies and third year guys. And we're getting more longer,

Cominga runs, even if Comiga's not happy with his minutes. We're getting, you know, a lot of pods minutes. And yeah, Chris Paul's been in there too. And now he's out with the broken hand.

But it's a different group that has to kind of reintegrate him. I don't think it'll be a big difference. Like I tend to be, listen, if I've been guilty of anything consistently in recent years, it's that I'm guilty of being overly optimistic about the Warriors and their ability to overcome just about everything, in part because they have, not just Draymond stuff, but, you know, blown out knees and blown out Achilles and Durant leaving and Bob Myers leaving, you know, have they overcome that or not?

I guess that remains to be seen. but I tend to lean toward this will look a lot like the rest of these kinds of episodes where Draymond has stepped out. Now he's coming back into the fold. They'll absorb it and move on because they've done it a million times before. And the key people who set the tone for how to do that are still there. And that's Steph and Clay and Steve Kerr. I would just say I think Howard is absolutely on the right track.

every year older, Steph and Clay get, it becomes harder for them to physically, Howard, you talked about them overcoming those injuries that they sustained, you know, when they were kind of in their prime. You know, those guys were three and four years younger. So every year older they get, it becomes harder to make up for those significant losses, right? But every year younger, they get around the core. every year younger they get in terms of the commingas of the world and all of those young pieces that they're playing. Every year younger they get, it becomes harder to reabsorb Dremont, if that makes sense.

And I know it's a really convoluted way of saying it. But the younger guy get, the harder it becomes, not just from a stability at the top and cultural standpoint, but from figuring out what your role is within these kind of defined, you know, offensive systems that the Golden State's been running, you know, with so much success for so long. And guys come in and you hear the Kamingas, you know, as he's playing more and more minutes and still not kind of happy with those minutes. That's a guy telling you, I want more. Like he's literally telling you I want more.

Not with his game. Sometimes there will be a guy, you know, out there that's kind of on the court. You could tell he wants to stretch his wings a little bit and kind of feel his way around an offense. And he's not necessarily happy with this particular role, you know, as it pertains to his ascension into whatever realm of player he's going to be come, but he's telling you, like, this ain't enough for me. And so when Draymond is out for extended periods of time with young players that want to do that, it just blurs the lines more. It has people

creeping into areas that they might normally not even think about getting into because there's so much stability in terms of the way they play when Steph, Draymond, and Clay are present. So do I think they'll be okay? Sure. Do I think it takes a toll on them that, that, We probably can't quantify. Also, sure. Now, me and Howard talked about this, and I want to give back to Kaming in a second because we have a talk since the leak happened, which was pretty hilarious to me and me and Howard talk about that a little bit offline.

But let's talk about Draymond first and how he is reintegrating himself back into the fold. And a lot of that, at least our first initial picture into him reintegrating himself was him coming back on his own podcast, Howard. And I was, when I got, when I saw the, the pod was, was, was being made. I was a little disappointed. And more of just the fact that the whole reason for you to be off the floor and have this suspension is for you to figure out some level of change in your practice, right?

and figure out how you are going to change within this, within this team. And one of the biggest reasons, or one of the biggest things that annoyed the team about you was the podcast that you were doing, right? If you're trying to turn over a new leaf, why are you going in head first into a medium that people don't like? And you were speaking in these rambling functions and doesn't seem like at times you were actually taking accountability. what were your impressions of the pod, Howard,

and how do you think that that is going to play going forward with this team? Listen, I'm not going to try to get inside the heads of his teammates and coaches and warrior staff. Like, how will it play with them? I don't know. I think they're used to the fact that Draymond, whether it's sometimes like going straight to the press conference after shit has happened and speaking straight to the public and to the media about stuff. Like he's always, he's like, it's one of the things I admire about him. He doesn't dodge this stuff. So I think they're used to that and they're used to the idea that sometimes, you know,

within 30 minutes after a finals game, he's going straight to recording a pod. And I, you know, it's probably not always welcome. But in this case, I don't want to sound like the Draymond Apologist, but he did not do this on the day he got suspended or the day after that or the day after that. And in fact, one of the things he said later in the pod, which I heard because I did listen to it start to finish because

that is my level of dedication fellas as a journalist. We appreciate that. Somebody got to do it. Late in the pod, which wrapped right before we were recording, he said that the volume, the company that does the podcast with, he was thanking them for standing by him too because he had a deal in hand

that had not been signed yet. That literally he was supposed to have, I think, the meeting with them to finalize on the day all the shit went down. And he was appreciative of the fact that they stood by him. And he was naming the various people with that network, including Colin Cowherd, who that's his podcast network, but also, you know, a lot of his executives or others that work with Draymond on this, thanking them for not backing away.

And they said to him, hey, listen, if you want to have some like positive news out there, we can announce the deal. And he was like, no, it's not, that's not, this is not the time to do that. So if anything, there's a part of him that realized it was not a time to be heard from at all for the last few weeks. I think if we were going to fault, I'm not going to argue with anybody who wants to criticize Draymond for sometimes saying maybe too much. As a reporter, I'm always going to ask for more and not less. So I'm not going to advocate for not to talk. But timing and time, place, all that stuff matters.

I think it's to his credit. I don't want to overly praise him for it, but it's to his credit that he decided just to lay low throughout this whole thing until the suspension was lifted, until he was back. And then he decided it's, you know, this is the avenue to hear from me. He does have a business arrangement with the volume. Yeah. Was there like language? There wasn't any language in the suspension from the team or the league that was going to forbid him from podcasting. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. He could have. He could have. And I'm not, again, I'm not saying give him great credit for. for not doing it. I'm just saying I'm not going to criticize him for doing it today, January 8th, after he did lay low for the last three, four weeks or whatever. He didn't rush to the microphone immediately to start justifying or rationalizing. He served his time. He did whatever counseling was necessary.

I believe if I'm reading and interpreting him correctly, that counseling is not ending just because his suspension's over. He's continuing. He talked about this being something that is a, you know, a process and a journey and a discovery, you know, self-discovery and all that stuff, that he's grateful for having this moment to kind of reassess and recalibrate. And I, listen, I take him out of his word on all that because I think Drayman's always been pretty earnest, you know, when he's thoughtful and self-reflective about the things that have gone wrong for him or the things that he has done wrong, I respect the fact that he usually is pretty straightforward about that.

Like there weren't any qualifiers on his apologies in this podcast today. It was, I thought it was all pretty legitimate. But I know Logan and I both listened to like, you didn't listen to all of it, Logan, but like I know you kind of felt a little differently as it unfolded than I did. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit. I think I just felt the action of doing it. I think the action of doing it said a lot about where he is or where he isn't in his quest to get on the right path, right? He says he's going to change.

He says he's going to do all of these things. Yet he is doing the thing. He's continuing to do the things that he was doing that people didn't like before the suspension. He still have his level of defiance in a time where I think that he probably, if there was any, time for Draymond to chill out and just kind of reintegrate himself with the team in a non-historic Draymond way. I think this was the time to do it. So the very act of having a podcast to discuss it, you think, undermines the message that he

was trying to deliver. I do. I do think that he is, this is a, this is a, this is a, like that, that, that podcast in general has caused him more problems than anything. Right. It's not more than the punch of Nirkich or the strangling of Gobert. Sure, sure, sure. But it has been like it is like number six, right, of the problems.

It has been. And the other has to do with him doing bodily harm on the people. But it hasn't helped him. And I think that this is up this, if there was ever a time where there was a crescendo of time where he needed to maybe change his ways and his overall ways of doing things, I think this was the time to do it. And even to his point about, um, not. telling the volume not to share the news that he got that that he re-up with him that wasn't if that would have dropped that hey the draymond has signed a new deal with the volume after he punched somebody or after he you know punched somebody that wouldn't have been good news who would have

mocked it you know he knew he knew there was there's real reason why he didn't do that it was because he didn't want to be mocked it wasn't that it was oh i don't want to share good news that wasn't good news to share. And I think there was one thing I do love about Dremont, and I think that Howard, you love it as well. I do love how candid he is. I just don't think this was a time and place to do that. I think if there was ever a time to chill out and quietly reintegrate yourself to a team that you have consistently let down over the last 18 months, I think this was the time to do it. I don't think this was a time to pod and get yourself out there to sell, you. tell your narrative without people actually asking you questions.

And, you know, I thought that this was a time where he could have just kind of quietly integrated himself back into that locker room. All right, but real quick, he was going to do at some point soon, today, tomorrow, whatever, he would be doing a press conference with Bay Area Media, right? So as soon as he does that, isn't he going to say the same things that he was able to just simply say and get out there on his podcast? I mean, I'm not saying, like, if people think it's unseemly to, like, essentially be quote unquote profiting from it because it is it's podcast they're getting advertising that he's in

business with the volume if they don't like is it is it the delivery method or is that he spoke at all because eventually he was going to have some sort of presentation like this whether it was in front of us with the media or on a podcast or a sit down interview with what are the networks whatever he was he was eventually going to say these things i think that i would have liked to see it more in a press conference setting because at least you can get you know you have the Howard becks of the world that will challenge you on things that you are going to say whereas if somebody who are to ask him a question tomorrow or whenever he talks I'm assuming it'll probably be tomorrow um he'll just say oh no i said everything i said on my podcast i think that he wasn't going to i don't think that he was

actually going to get held accountable and it's always like that i mean ever since he got the podcast he doesn't really like get pushed in the way that i think he should should in that type of setting. That's my thing on it. And also I think that, and I think it was the overall messaging of doing a podcast was the reasoning that I don't think, like I said before, I think if there was ever a time where you should integrate yourself quietly into the locker room, and I do want to get the NBA player's perspective on this.

If there was ever a time, Roger, like, that you want to integrate yourself. Am I wrong on that? How would you feel? What do you think about that situation? Like, you watched a little bit of it. How do you feel about that? I watched a very little bit of it, full disclosure, a very little bit of it. I didn't, I didn't.

I mean, what this boils down to for me is I think both of you have points. What people typically want in that situation is not only for you to show remorse and be contrite, but they want to show that you will seed a little bit of your free will in order to reagratiate yourself to the team, right? Like give something up for us. Like you want to come back like you fucked up. Don't, don't do your point, Logan. Don't do that anymore. Come out at the press conference, you know, and do it in the way we'd rather have you do it.

I don't necessarily subscribe to that. Like I don't know why, you know, someone would have to have to do that to re-engratiate themselves to a team, like not do their normal podcast. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I would just say this, like in terms of looking at him from an ownership perspective and from a front office perspective. If someone, and you've had that conversation with them in terms of the podcast and not really being in love with it, I don't know if they have or haven't. You guys clearly are more plugged in on that than I am. But if you've had that and he comes out and does the podcast pre-press conference, we got, you know, we just have real decisions to me because

Draymond's basically telling you, look, I'm Draymond. Like, that's what the podcast is about. Like, I am doing me like he's told you all the time. time. Like, I, you know, if I make mistakes, I'll own up to them, but I'm going to do what I do. It's who I am. And so you're at a point now and where is the Jews worth the squeeze? That's it simple as that. It really is. It boils down to like, if he's had the press conference and you don't like it, you've had those conversations, you know, and he's doing the podcast pre-press conference and Logan's saying, you know, we wish he wouldn't have done that. Well, this is where we are, man. Like, oh, you know, we can boil it down to the, to the nitty-gritty.

Is he good enough? Is it juice worth to squeeze at this point? Like, are the antics and the dumb shit that might come along with it from time to time, not saying all the time, because I like Draymond. But is it still worth it to you as a Golden State organization? And that's the question, because he's not changing. Like, you're asking a human being to change over the course of what, three weeks? That's not realistic in any walk of life, let alone a dude who's Uber wealthy and plays, you know, in the best league in the world and is, has come from nowhere and feels like he's done it, you know, despite all odds. Like, that's unrealistic. Raja hit a couple of things, a couple of, like, key words that Drayman himself actually hit on. And so I actually want to just real quickly because I, again, call me crazy. I typed a bunch of notes while I was listening to his pod. The antics, Raja.

You mentioned the antics. So this is Drayman talking. He was noting the fact. that what he wants to do is not change the intensity level. There's this whole thing of like, oh, but if you tell Draymond, you can't do these things and he can't still be Draymond, he himself on the pod today says,

I'm not going to stop taking the excuse of, I can't play the way I play if I don't do that kind of stuff. I'm no longer going to use that excuse, he said. He says, I'm still the same, Draymond, you don't change all the spots on the leopard. This is him talking. But some things I can leave behind, The antics, I can leave behind.

That won't change the way I play the game of basketball. That's all Draymond's speaking. Those are the notes I took. They may not be word for word. That's why I was encouraged or thought, I respected the way he delivered this on the podcast, whether it's on a podcast or whether it had been a press conference. Like, that's the right message is basically to recognize there are some lines here.

I can still bring all the intensity, all that just, you know, unbridled, you know, Dremondess basically, right? All the stuff that makes him great. You can do that stuff and not swing and hit Nirkich. You can do that stuff and not headlock Rudy Gobert. And without saying it specifically in those terms, that's essentially what he's saying. I can leave behind the antics.

I can still be me. And so I thought that was really key. And then the other piece of it real quick, three weeks, he says a lot for me has happened. I'm not saying that three weeks changed me entirely. What I need is to grow and I've embraced that growth. I can't necessarily say I've always done that. So again, those are quotes from him during the pod. So I think that's a recognition that three weeks is not the whole thing.

He doesn't come back a changed person. And even being a changed person, he's saying it's parts of this that have to change, but I still have to be me. But I can leave behind the stuff that got me in trouble in the first place. Well, I think that would be the message that you'd want to put out there if you were trying to, you know, make amends for what you did and come back kind of hat in hand to the franchise and I'm ready to go to work type of mentality. I would just, I would, I would say if you were looking at it from their perspective,

it almost has to say something like that. You know, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I want you back, so I'm going to take it for what it's worth. I'm going to put my trust in you, I guess, but I would always be kind of a little leery. And I would just say from someone who had impulse control issues and deals with them still now, that's an easier said than done thing to go out there, be flying around on pure adrenaline, competing in an atmosphere where by his own admission, like, you know, he's had to overcome a lot of odds to get where he's at, really believing in yourself, having something from your

perception being taken away from you, because that's kind of what it is, right? Like, I don't mean to make this, but like when I struggled with those things and when I see Draymond's struggle. You're usually in a situation with a player or a ref where you feel like something's being taken away from you or someone's disrespecting you in a way or you're not getting the type of respect that you deserve and then you kind of lash out. But that's an underdog mentality, bro. Like you exist because you have that fight in you.

It's not easy to just turn that off. Like the antics aren't, those aren't like, hey, premeditated. I'm going to go into the game and at X, Y, and Z time when this happened. here's the script. That's not how that happens. Those are organic kind of reactions. Those are hard to turn off. Adding to what you said, Raja, this is, it doesn't matter what Drayman says in this thing, whether it's in a podcast medium and or a press conference medium. It's going to be on the court and about the action that he that he puts behind it, to be honest. Because even, because he referenced a conversation that he had with, with Steve Kerr. I think it was December 14th. They were,

and after a shoot-around. And he talks about how they both cried and how both they both, I think Steve asked him, what do you want your legacy to be? I'm paraphrasing on this one, right? Do you know how many times they've had that conversation throughout this season? No, for real, like where even after the Rudy Gobert incident and Draymond is coming back, Steve Kerr had that long hour conversation with him touching on similar points of this. right. That's where it's, and I think maybe, you know, maybe I can say that, you know, maybe I can't

overreact to the medium that he puts it. He puts, you know, his messaging on. And, you know, part of that is being a media member and wanting to scrutinize in the moment what he's saying, as opposed to hearing him, you know, just ramble for 50 minutes without any, you know, without anybody talking, talking to, asking him any questions. But he's going to, he has a lot to figure. out on the court. And like Roger said, it's not going to change in three weeks. None of this is going to change. We're going to have to just see him change over the course. We're going to have to see him change in real time. And I'm dubious that he is going to change, Howard. I think that that's the biggest thing on this, on this. And he, to Rogers's point, he has gone through a lot to get here.

He has, you know, overcome a lot of odds, you know, even from coming out of Saginaw, even from being a late second round pick, right? Even, you know, from Rajas, those, it's being a second round pick to undraft it and how hard it is to even get on a rotation, let alone become one of the greatest offenders of all time and being a Hall of Famer. But this is probably the biggest challenge of his career, Howard.

Yeah, I think it is. And I think, again, something that he said underscored it. I know people are going to probably view it kind of cynically because it sounds so dramatic that he disclosed that in his conversation with Adam Silver, Dremont says I considered retiring. and Adam said, don't be rash. Like, don't, you know, take some time.

That's not the right thing. Later in the podcast, though, this sounds even more dramatic in a way, but I think, again, in a very, like in a really important way that shows how much Dremont, I think, has reflected on this. Dremont says one of the reasons I considered quitting is because the worst of me comes out on the basketball court. He's drawing the line. And this is something I've noticed a lot in the course of my career covering the MBA. And that's something that I try to tell fans all the time, who you are on the court is not necessarily who you are in life. Raja is nodding, right?

And Raja is a living testament of that for show. Right. Yeah, because you could, you could, because the competitive intensity overtakes you, right? Raja talked about his own, you know, impulse control. I think you said Raja, right? But that comes out when, like, you're at your most aggressive and intense because you're competing. on the court and that so when draymond said the worst of me comes out of the basketball court i immediately flashed to certain players i've known who were like great dudes off the court really smart

thoughtful people but on the court something sometimes just snaps and draymond says he considered retiring because he it seems like because of the struggle he has with what can i actually control that part of it this is not who i am in the rest of my life why am i this way when I'm between those four lines. And I can vouch for that. And I know you can vouch for that, Howard, just with Draymond specifically. He is off the court and all of my interactions with him, all of your interactions with him, been a great dude, right? And like, he does have that intensity.

He does have that competitiveness. But I remember there was one time, and I could say one of these, it was one of these things, it was after a postseason. Like, I think it was after the Western Conference finals, right? where I was trying to get him for an interview. I think it was in Portland. It was 19. And one of the PR people was consistently shooing me away. And I remember he said, no, no, no, no, no.

I want it. If he ever needs anything, I got him, right? Things like that, he does great. He does, he has great moments off the floor, right? But this on court stuff overtakes that. And I'm just dubious that that's going. to change in this short amount of time. I mean, I mean, I must maybe pose to Howard.

Look, the jury will be out. And I would, I, you know, sometimes you think that you have to play a certain way because it's all you've ever known and it's what's been successful for you. And it's, it's quite frankly how you were able to overcome all the odds that were stacked against you when you started. And you've never really given an opportunity. to yourself to see if you could play another way. You know,

like it's almost, it's almost like there's not enough confidence in what you can do to try something different, right? Like, you're like, man, I got to have this emotion and this level of whatever you want to call it to be

successful. And you're not giving yourself the benefit of the doubt that if you, if you just play with all the skill level that you've accumulated and all the knowledge that you've gained over the years of playing and, you know, you've grown so much since you started that maybe you don't need all of that. And if he can get to that point, I would believe wholeheartedly that he'll be fine.

And I don't think he'll deal with that. But as long as you're playing on that edge, and I know that edge all too well, as long as you're on that edge, you just don't control it the way you think you do. You literally don't have control sometimes in those moments. I didn't. And I see that with him sometimes. out there. It's not a, it's not, I can't say this enough. That's not a conscious decision to do some of that shit. That's a natural reaction from where you are emotionally. Um, you know, and again, I fell into the

category how I was talking about. That's why I was not in as much as I was. Most people who, who meet me when I don't play for your team or, you know, as a fan or a player, their first reaction, even now is people, I see it all the time. I'll fight him on site. I can't. I hate that. Like, people really have that reaction to who I was when I was on the court. But most people who know me when I'm not on the court think I'm a decent dude, it just brought out that part of me as well. So I know what that's like. Like that, I turned into a different person when I touched the court.

So basically what you're saying is every time you're on a cross of Kobe fan, they still want to fight you to this day. Oh, man. Yeah, that's hilarious. Howard. You don't even know that have. But you know how I know it's hard. I'm 47 years old. I'm 47 years old. If I go to the park right now with my sons, I'm good for a while, chilling,

like just hooping. It doesn't take long for the intensity to rise before I can feel myself starting to be like, bro, you don't want to be in that spot. Like, you know, there's nothing out here for you to even be in that spot. But guess what you're getting close to?

That fucking spot. So I know it's a real, really hard thing to turn off. So you almost got, like I said, he's got to give himself credit for being better than he thinks he is, bro. You don't need all of that. Go try to play a different way. Roger, I need you to wear two hats simultaneously right now.

On one hat, I need you to be the person of Dremond where you're entering a locker room where you're having to gain back trust, right? Where you're having a game back trust from people, even this season where you've seen them, or people that have seen you while out. and then I need you to put on another hat, which is the teammates that are welcoming him back into this locker room. What is each role playing at this point? Like, how do you, like, because there's going to be a time where some,

even during the season, there's not a lot of practice time, where even if Jermon is about to do something and it seems like he's about to go up, guys are going to like kind of flinch and be like, oh, shit. Even if he's not even like on that, even if he's not trying to, even if he is evolved, how do those two sides work together and come together? What are they thinking?

What is the dynamic? What's going on here? Well, there's nothing you can do if you're a dream on, but be, you know, genuine and just contrite about what happened. Like, you got,

you have to, you have to be in there and let everyone know that, first of all, the team means more than anything to you in this world. You know, that was the thing that hurt me the most in this is that I let you guys down, right? And I know I won't repair this overnight, but I'm going to go about every single day trying to prove to you guys that I have you, right? Now, I don't think that's a hard sell to a team. When you're when you're towing that line and they look to you for that type of emotional leadership and

and backbone and grit, as long as you're not turning on them, and that's why what happened last year with Jordan Poole was so catastrophic, because it's hard to come back from that. But if your transgressions are against the other team in spaces where you're either defending or standing up or something like that,

dudes typically, there's not a whole ton of shitload of work to be done. Like, just let them know that you ain't going to let them down anymore and leave them for six, seven, eight games. what have you, I won't put us in that spot anymore. And I think it's relatively easy for dudes to get over that. Now, the chemistry on the court, you know, how much did dudes do in your absence, how much success did they have doing it, you know, how much are they willing to cede some of that so that you can be reintegrated into that?

I don't have a great answer for that. That's just going to kind of organically work itself out. But if you're in there saying, listen, fellas, I understand. I let you down. You know, I put us in a really bad spot. I think just taking full ownership from my own personal experiences and bearing your soul, like I won't do it again. I apologize and let's play ball.

And I'll prove to you that you guys are my priority. I think guys are fine with you. As long as you ain't beating them up. Howard, I've been, you know, in this locker room for much this season, like just even over the last couple of weeks.

So I want you to put your fellow beat writer head on, at least in my mind we're seeing leaks from comminga. We're seeing injuries. We're seeing what seems to be a fractured locker room. When you put your beat writer hat on right now, what are you seeing? What does this say about what this current group is when you hear from afar what's going on? I mean, it's alarming.

You know, your antenna go up when you're covering a team. or even when you're covering the league, if it's somebody else's team, somebody else's beat, and you start seeing things like, oh, because if it's an anonymous report, Moses Moody, you know, has lost faith in Steve Kerr or Dremont. You know, in Comenka's case, it's been both, right? There was some anonymous stuff as well as Comica himself being pretty elaborate. And also, this is years in the making, by the way.

I just would like to give context to that. Yeah. Here's the thing. And again, I know. Rajah will back me up on this. At any given moment in the NBA, on every single team, if you're covering that team,

you can go to players 10 through 15 these days, back in the day it was through 12 or 13. You can even go through everybody probably like seven through the end of the bench. And if you want to write a story about how guys are unhappy with the coach, guaranteed almost every team. And that's all championship, those are championship level teams. Dude, championship teams.

shitty lottery teams, teams on the treadmill of mediocrity, all of them, one through 30, you can always, I'm not, and I'm not saying this to throw cold water on any of the reporting out of the Warriors locker room. It's all clearly legit and there are some issues. And again, like, I think it's alarming. It should be alarming from the warrior standpoint in terms of like whether this team is still all rowing in the same direction. But guys, not happy with minutes, playing time, starting, bench, shots, whatever, touches, all of it. It's universal. It's all the time. It's more heightened when it's a team like the Warriors that,

one, is in a bit of a fragile state. Two is trapped between eras, right? They sort of abandoned the two timelines thing, but they're still kind of trying to straddle two eras. They're still trying to squeeze the most out of what's left of Steph Clay Draymond and Steve Kerr, who, by the way, could walk away this summer and still trying to extend this era at the same time that they have these young players who are itching for more responsibility, who by the way haven't always handled that responsibility well.

Like I know Steve Kerr is taking just blow after blow on Twitter these days and probably elsewhere, but he's got a really difficult balancing act there. His job is still to try to make sure that Steph and Clay and Draymond have another opportunity to contend for championships. And at the same time, it's like, well, how come you're not developing the young guys? Because when he puts them in there, especially their first couple of years for comming and Moody and Weissman when he was there,

they couldn't handle it. And so it's, it's tough. So all of that is alarming too, right? Like the fact that there are guys willing to or their agents are willing to leak stuff about their unhappiness with their roles and taking shots at the coach, all of that is alarming because I think it speaks to, like,

Draymont is not, not even close to their only concern right now. When you see that, how do you feel, Roger? What's you seen of the Warriors right now and you see leaks that way and leaks in that way from younger guys and also see the injuries and see,

what is the future path forward for the Warriors? Let's go Clairvorn Roger right now. Yeah, listen. that's it's it's going to be wrapped up i mean it's it's that's not a good place to be in you've got new leadership at the top bob myers isn't there anymore steve cur to to howard's point can make a call on it this year the future doesn't look bright that's what i'll say like i the future doesn't look bright like there's not clay thompson isn't getting better drayman isn't an ascending player anymore. Like Steph is holding steady, but I would make the argument that those

dudes are on a decline, right? And so if you're still trying to win championships based around that, the rest of that roster is not that. Sorry, Golden State fans. The rest of that roster is not that. It's not the type of roster that gets those three over the hump. So if that's what we're talking about doing, then I'm telling you the future of that does not look bright. Now, you know, Steph's a good dude. I don't think Steph is as, as, it's the word that I would like to use for LeBron. As matter of fact, as black and white, like, LeBron's like, look, if I don't see it, I'm out. I don't really give a shit.

I don't think, I don't think Steph's like that, his relationship with Golden State, all that they've accomplished and whatnot. But I would, I would bet you somewhere deep down in a really dark place. If no one were around, you asked that dude, hey, man, like, does this, does this seem like the place? To win more championships, purely to win more championships, where you should ride it out in, he'd probably tell you no. That's not all that goes into that, though. You know, I'm sorry, but I'm just saying,

like if you were looking at it purely to win chips and what that looks like moving forward in Golden State, not good. It's tough times in the Bay Area. We gave you 43 minutes on the Warriors. Let's take a quick break and let's talk about another team. Get in on all the NBA buzzer-beaters, ankle breakers, and Tomahawk jams with Fandul, America's number one sports book.

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Taking the over on that. Thunder Wizards. I'm taking the over on shots for the Wizards. I know that much. Rockets Heat, taking the over. Jazz bucks, taking the over. Sun's Clippers. You know what it is, taking the over.

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Must be 21 years and older and present in select states. $5 pregame money line wager required. First online real. money wager only $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.fandull.com. And we are back. I wanted to talk a little bit about the bucks this season.

I mean, we talked about the Warriors in the previous segment, but this is a team that has championship level aspirations a second in the Eastern conference. But it seems like there is a bit of, I think that's my, that's my, that's my, That's why a season recap on the bucks. It's like, I don't know about them. I don't know what's going to happen. I think they're 26 and 11.

Janus is urging, there's a headline in ESPN. Janus is urging the slumping bucks to fix their issues over the next four months. We've seen versions of super teams and when I mean super teams. And I wouldn't necessarily categorize this one as one because it doesn't have the three all-stars. but this is a team with championship level aspirations with generational type talent. When you see the Bucks, and I'll start with Raja on this, when you see a team like the Bucks and you see the record versus what you see on the floor,

what does that tell you long term about where this team is going? There are some foundational issues with this team. They have so much talent up top that it can mask it. and at times make it look make it look like something that maybe it shouldn't be in terms of sustainability which is a championship level team right now.

They are too bad defensively. And when I say foundational, I'm not in the locker room. I'm not breaking down the film with them. I don't know what the assignments are from night to night, but there is some fundamental change. Drew Holiday, yes, great defensive piece.

I get that. Like there are some pieces around the fringes also. that you could throw at me as to reasons why personnel-wise they can't do certain things like they did last year but I think it's deeper than that bro

they went from one of the best rebounding teams in the league to a subpar rebounding team like the points they've given up in the paint this year versus what they've traditionally been it's not in the same realm there's something

there's something there and I mean foundationally in terms of their strategy and what they're trying to do philosophically, defensively, that has changed in a way that hasn't been good for them. Nah, Dane's going to have games where he plays his average, 25 a game, some nights he's not going to be great. Like, that's the offense you work through. Defense always comes together before offense,

even when you're in training camp. And you're in training camp and you have a scrimmage and, you know, low scoring defense always looks good, man. the team that hangs their hat on that side of the ball is always going to look better quicker than the team that wants to work together offensively and be firing on all cylinders and have this ball movement, people, movement type of deal. So I say that to say that offense is going to be a work in progress for two dudes who is ball dominant as Janus and dame, but defensively.

And that's been your calling card in which you've hung your hat on, at least through this window of time with Bud and staff. And, you know, I'm not throwing shade at Griff. Griff is my guy. but and I talked about this like I don't know if they've changed verbiage I don't know if they've changed it looks like those bigs are way out

like they you know I read something where they're blitz and pick and roll more like they stopped doing it with Brooke as much but they're doing it with Bobby Porth they're doing it with Janus a little bit more than they did him you know that means dudes are out on the floor in space they're not around there the rim in a way to rebound right like

Brooke Lopez at the rim having to challenge as many shots as he has to challenge means he's not in position the rebound. That means you're getting broken down off the balance. That means, you know, there are breakdowns in your defensive scheme that are making him have to come over and challenge shots. There are a lot of things that are wrong there foundationally. Howard, it seems like

the Bucks, like a lot of good teams, right, are in a race against time, right? And that timeline is accelerated when you have a guy like Janus and you bring in a guy like Lillard. How do they figure it out before it's too late, right? Where how did what are the keys? Because

we know the deal that Yana signed to keep him and but walking for at least on paper the next few years. But that could also change, right? Like we've seen a lot of player movement, if anything, over the last few years. Contracts really don't matter when it means what we're talking about staying in a market. How do you think that the Bucks will do with this race against time that we know that they're in right now? There's a pro-personnel guy in the league who I've known for a long time, who at the time of this trade, when the trade first went down, and I think most of us, I think the majority reaction when the bucks swapped out drew for Dame Lillard was, wow, incredible. Partially because we were all shocked that the bucks swept in and pulled this off in the first place when everybody thought it was Miami or bust. And I think the reviews were overall really positive right off the bat.

Dame generational talent. Janus, obviously generational talent, two-time MVP, pairing them up. Could be the most devastating pick and roll in the history of the universe, all that stuff. And I had this one pro personnel guy who threw the brakes on almost immediately that day when I was reaching out to folks just to get reactions and a feel for a fit and all that stuff. And he said, they're going to really miss Drew. And I said, but I look, I get it. You're sacrificing defense for offense, but this game's about offense first and foremost. especially in this era, aren't they gaining more on offense than they're losing on defense?

And this one personnel guy was basically like, I don't think so in this case. I think they're really going to, like there's a danger of taking a real big step back. And I always kind of like kept that in the back of my mind because everybody else I talked to that day or texted with was pretty positive about it across the league. look, for all their offensive struggles that we've flagged, and like if you look at Dame's numbers, dame's down, like his three-point shooting is one of the worst marks of his career right now. He's shooting one of the lowest,

you know, just in terms of like his field goal attempts is one of the lowest rates of his career. So it's him trying to adjust to a lesser role or just, you know, a different kind of role. But offensively, like they've still been like, whatever, top four or five, I think. defense where they're down toward like, you know, 19, 20, whatever. And they just had a seven-game winning streak a couple weeks ago.

It's just that they've now lost, I think, four of the last seven that's kind of like thrown all the alarm bells up. So like, it's all, I think there's a combination of things. There's just the complete change in identity from a defense first team to a team that's now all about this one-two punch with Dame and Janus. There's a rookie head coach who I think has had his growing pain. for sure. And scouts around the league have kind of like whispered a little bit about like it's not

just when Stott's bailed out right off the bat or it's not just about him reverting to the drop coverage after his players all came to him and said, you know what, your defensive scheme isn't working. We got to go back to doing what we were doing. That stuff is kind of faded because it was earlier in the season, but that stuff has not gone away. And I think some of the concerns that I think people around the league have had about whether whether Adrian Griffin is the right guy at the right time for this team.

I think those concerns are still there. They may be quiet, but I don't think they've gone away. And so you have that. You have the identity change. You have, you know, Drew not being there. You have the ongoing issue that they had even before they made this trade, which is that they already had age issues. Chris Middleton and his health and availability.

Brooke Lopez is up there in years and has missed a lot of games over the last several years, all of which heightens the urgency, right? Because their window may not be that big. Yonis's window is still stretching out pretty long. But this team as constructed, you know, may not have a lot left. It's interesting, Roger, because when I think about Adrian, the one concern that I have going to the postseason is obviously the bucks have the players to be at least on paper to be able to make a run.

But I think last year's postseason taught us a really big lesson that we, I don't think we really heat a lot, is that coaching matters in this league. Coaching matters. We're always built in this up as a players league. And if you look at the Eastern Conference, what won out last year in the postseason in the Eastern Conference? It was coaching. It was it was bolstruck. I'm going to outcoach every one of my peers. And I'm going to do whatever I can to figure out some kind of way with all these bits of

parts to get the Miami Heat into the finals. And when we go into this postseason, I'm kind of on the other extreme now of like, do I really trust Adrian Griffin in his first year in the gauntlet of the Eastern Conference to be able to do this? Do I trust Bazula, no matter how good Boston looks right now when the chips are down? Do I trust them? Should the Bucks be trusted no matter what their record is when it is time for May? and April and beyond.

At this point, what you've seen so far? The defense concerns me. It's not like they're this offensive juggernaut that is just reinventing the way you play offense in the NBA and no one can figure it out and stop them from scoring. If they were that and they were poor defensively, I'd say, yeah, I trust it, but it's not that.

Like, here's the thing. Like you said trust is an interesting word. You said, should we trust them, right? I don't have a great answer. I don't know. But I do know this. That word trust is what it ultimately boils down to with Adrian Griffin. Do they trust him?

Whatever he's preaching in there. And that's typically where things start to fracture on a team. You lose trust for whatever reason. The answer right now is probably no. They don't fully trust him. How does he regain that trust? I don't know. I think Griff is fully capable of being a head coach.

I think that was a terrible, a terrible look for Griff as a first job. And I don't think he was the right fit for that particular job because of where they were as a franchise and how close they were just coming off of, you know, the successes they had. It was curious in the moment for sure. It was definitely curious in the moment. And Nick, and Nick Nurse was on the market still at that time. Right. Like they could have. Yeah.

They could have had Nurse. There were some other guys too. Yeah, so from, from, you know, when I, when all of that's in play and then you tell me the team's already, you know, been in there and they've, they've had to change coverages. And that's not a good look in terms of the trust that I'm talking about. Because your game plan might not be hell of solid. Like, but if I trust and believe in what you're selling as a coach, we might be able to overcome that. Roger, when you, when you, when you, like, when you're thinking about those two things and there's a constant, changing and changing. How does that affect the player on the day to day, right, where you're probably second-guessing yourself on coverages and like, I don't know what to do right here. How does that affect the day-to-day? It's a very delicate, look, it's a very delicate balance because we'll all

sit here and tell you as players, we don't want a dude who's non-collaborative, who doesn't listen to like what, you know, what we're seeing out there on the floor because we're the ones out there, so on and so forth, right? But that's on one hand. And on the other hand, we definitely don't one a dude who, if his stuff doesn't work the first or second time, he's cave into every single possible philosophy that's flying around the locker room because then you look wishy-washy. And I'm not accusing anyone of being this, mind you. This has nothing to do with Griff or any other coach. This is just, you know, players and NBA locker rooms and coaches in general. I had conversations with coaches. Trust. Well, I was like, hey, bro, stick to your guns. It might not be, it might not be

right. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's right. Get up in front of everybody and say it like you believe it to be the fucking gospel. Get up there and preach it. If you do anything short of that, they're going to eat you up. Like don't, don't waver in the face of any of that shit. Just get up there and say, hey, dude, this is the way it is. This is the way it's going to be. This is the way I believe it to be. And here's how we're going to do it. And you'll get people, you'll get people to at least give you the benefit of the doubt for a while. Then you've got to figure out how to make it work. but if you're wavering, so it's a very delicate thing, Logan, I don't have a great answer for you. You have to find the sweet spot in sticking to your guns, your principles, and what we want to do,

but also being able to compromise a bit in spaces where it doesn't completely change what you're talking about, but it gives players an opportunity to maybe be a little bit more successful. And quite frankly, that's why ain't no damn NBA head coach. Like, I don't know how to do that. But that's what that's the job. Would you stick to your guns, Roger? Or would you have been like, fuck you, you, what would you have been as a head coach?

No, it can't, it can't be, it can't be that. That's what I'm saying to you. It can't be a, F, you guys, like this is the way, it can't be all the way that, not in today's day and age with today's player. There was a time where it was that. But it can't be like, hey, we're trying Logan's way tonight, guys. Hey, that shit didn't work. Hey, Howard, what do you got for me?

Can't be that either because, you know, you've, you've lost the locker room at that point. They don't believe that you know what you're talking about. So it's got to be, you know, again, that's a, that's a tough gig. And for his first job, for them to be right there knocking on the door, even before you got Damien Lillard, I think that's a very, very, very tough gig to step into for your first head job. Howard, what's the, and we're going to get out of here in a second, but I do want to leave on this. Howard, what is the, what is the panic meter on the, on Janus watch at this very moment? Like I said, he did sign a deal, but it doesn't really matter.

If you're in the Bucks organization, what's your level of concern with how he's feeling at this point? I mean, one of the things I love about Janus is how candid and impassioned he is when things are going either really well or really badly. The quote he gave the other day, the story you were alluding to, the quote he gave, he's talking about, you know, we have to play better, we have to defend better, we have to trust one another, we have to be coach better. he says, you're saying everybody has to be better. He says, it starts from the equipment manager. He has to wash our clothes better. Damn. I don't think I've heard the equipment manager called out before unless they've gotten like

Lock the fuck in, guys, a strap in. Let's go. I do remember like there's been some like, you know, jersey malfunctions where like someone's name got mangled or a bowel fell off or like, I remember Robert Orr's like drawstrings snapped one day and his shorts were slipping off in the middle of a game. There's a photo floating around on the internet on that one. I'm laughing in the background. But the equipment manager, y'all decided the equipment manager. I know he didn't mean to call him out.

It was just more like, it was that whole speech you give. We all got to be better. Everybody from the first guy to the last thing. From the root of the tutor. You should like, you should like cited like the bus driver. The chef. The chef's got to be better. My eggs were runny this.

At the practice facility. You podcasters, you guys got to be better. We know we got to be. That goes without saying. I wrote a column when Janus on the day signed that extension a couple months ago that Bucks fans were very cranky about. And I don't. I sort of understand why they were, but I kind of don't. The point of the column was simply, I was basically thinking out loud, arguing with myself about,

hey, Janice just signed this extension. Wow, that's fantastic news for Milwaukee, for the Bucks, for their fans, for everybody. He's committed. And then I argued with myself for the next like 800 words about whether that really means that. Because in today's NBA, we've seen various versions of this, including with his teammate, Damien Lillard, who was loyal to the nth degree with Portland. And legitimately so until the day that he wasn't. And I'm not saying that makes him a hypocrite. And I'm not saying it makes him wrong or anything else.

But everybody's got the breaking point. And in today's MBA, eventually you say, you know what? There's a dead end here. And I think I've got to move on. And I'm not saying that Janus is or will or should. The point of that column was simply kind of trying to grapple with this era that we're in where if you've got the juice that a Janus or a Dame or a LeBron or a Kevin Durant or a Kyrie Irving or these guys have, the contract doesn't matter.

You said it. Contract doesn't matter. You can sign for a thousand years. But if you decide one day you woke up and you've lost faith in the organization for any reason, or you just see a dead end or it's just time for whatever reason, guys can always still force their way out. And I'm not sounding any alarm bells right now on January 8th of this season where they've had Dame for less than a half season so far. Adrian Griffin's been a head coach for less than a half season so far.

they're still one of the top teams in the East. They are still by net rating, one of the top teams in the NBA. And they have, I just was double checking, they have the third rated offense. For all the sputtering we've seen at times with the offense, their third and offensive efficiency, just slightly behind the Celtics and the Pacers. Like, I think overall they're probably fine, but fine is not the standard when you've won a championship

and you have the two-time MVP and you got another generational talent next to him now. The standard is like championship robust. And so that makes the stakes really high and the margin for error really thin. And yeah, if it goes badly in the spring, I wouldn't rule out anything.

Again, I'm not predicting it. I'm not trying to like get hot takey here. But like in the era we're in, assume nothing. And, you know, I think Milwaukee, I think Buck's leadership, owners and front office all understand that too, right? That's why you make the big swing for the fences trade for Dame in the first place because nothing's guaranteed. And we got to do everything possible in the moment to ensure that Janus is happy here and has a chance to keep contending for championships here. Last question. Howard, do you think Janus enters his career in Milwaukee? You bastard.

Totally unfair question, Logan. That was messed up. Happy fucking New Year, Howard. Won't you say something? No, no, no, no. This is Faraja. No, no, you go ahead. You're chilling.

This is Faraj. Didn't he say me? You literally said Howard. Oh, wait, my bad. Whoops. Edit that in post. I don't lead that. I don't leave that in.

none. All I know is he's trying to screw one of us, Roger. He's trying to put one of us on every bulletin board and every fucking, like, social media feed. Every aggregator is going to be like, Roger Bell and Howard Beck predicts yonnas is leaving Milwaukee in July. What do you think, Logan? What do you?

I think that he is flirting with the idea in his head of this very moment for sure. I mean, I think not in this. I think that he has flirted with the idea because he, said it to the New York Times, right? He thought about it so much. He sent it to a podcast over the summer, too. Yeah, two separate interviews. He said this.

Didn't he say the second one on the podcast with Milwaukee Bucks uniform on, which was hilarious to me, optically speaking. But I think it's something that he has thought about. I think that it is on the table for him to dip. I think that that is definitely the tea leaves are there. And I think that if it doesn't get right, I think that, yeah, I think it is fair to assume that he may not in his career in Milwaukee. I just put my life and my stuff on the line for y'all. Now, y'all answer the question.

I just put my rep on the line as y'all turn now. That was a soft take, though. That was soft. Could he potentially wind up not being in Milwaukee? Yes. That's the answer you just gave. Is there a world in which, Janus doesn't, yeah, there is a world where he doesn't and his career has a walk in yaw. And this is the things I get.

Hey, you put a lot on the line there. Hey, Roger, I just put the pot on my back. And y'all didn't answer it either way. Y'all got scared. Y'all got scared. By the way. Yeah, you didn't either. That was as soft meddling as a cousin.

Whatever. So no? No, and nobody has anything to say? We just wrap this pot on up. That's what we're done today. I will say this. Like, odds, I'm not saying that he's not going to, but like odds are he won't, right? If you had asked any of us five years ago, is Dame going to end his career,

Portland, we'd say, of course he's getting his career in Portland, but I won't be surprised if something else happens because this is today's MBA, right? I think, Yonis, listen, I want to be very clear. I think he absolutely truly wants to end his career in Milwaukee. He would like to stay there. He would like to play his whole career there.

Is that realistic, though? And will his priorities change at some point? The way that Damien Lillard's did, the way that Lebrons did a couple times, the way that several other guys have? yeah, odds are, odds are something's going to change. Odds are he'll go somewhere else to finish. That doesn't mean I'm predicting it or expecting it or wanting it.

It's just like, it's just kind of a recognition of like, that's today's NBA for better or worse. Slightly stronger take. Roger, your turn. Damn. Yeah, I mean, happy fucking do your people. I don't think you can get much stronger than Howard's take without predicting

that he won't be in a, a buck's uniform at some point. And that's, I don't think that's fair either, just because I do, I do agree with Howard. I think he would like to be to stay a buck. And if the bucks, if they're, look, if they're close and the bucks are willing to do what they did this year as many times as they can do it to keep him happy, then I think he stays a buck. Like, we're, close. Obviously, if I'm here, we're going to have a chance and we'll be really close. And you will do whatever you can as an organization to keep me with the type of talent. that we've collectively identified

should help me get over the hump. If they show the willingness to do that and spare no expense, then I think he stays a buck. But I mean, honestly, like, to Howard's point, like in today's NBA, that's a rare thing. That has been another edition of a real one's,

motherfucking Mondays. I think we'll be back. Bucks fans are going to cancel us in the next week. Definitely. See you guys. Thursday, me and Ra, Ra, see Howard. Very, very, very, very soon on a Monday.

Talk to y'all soon. Tap in all the shits. Bye. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit fanduel.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky,

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