The Ringer NBA Show - Early Returns From a Potentially Historic Rookie Class | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 15, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos are joined by J. Kyle Mann to take a look at this impressive rookie class. They discuss the top three picks from this past draft, plus Chet Holmgren. Then, they go through a lightning round of a handful of other rookies who have caught their eye (57:02). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Guest: J. Kyle Mann Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to group chat. I am just barrier and standing performing is big waz. Looking as beautiful as ever. Thank you so much. Being broadcast on a screen above us like Zordon from Power Rangers is Rob Mahoney. Hi, Rob. Hi, yeah. Just to give the full visual, you guys are all in a room together, having a wonderful time

and just basking in the glow of my face and my takes before you. So we'll see how that feels as we're getting. deep into this podcast. Or also basking in the presence of our special guest. It's Jay Kyle, man. Hi, Kyle. Hello, how's it going? Zordon, quite a reference.

I don't know what the audience's reception rate on that. Like, Isaiah, do you know who Zordon is? No. There we go. Wow. The kids today. They're not being raised right. They're missing out.

Much like 90s style. It will come back, though, I promise. Well, they made a movie. It flop, didn't it? Didn't they have, like Elizabeth Banks? was it or something. I forgot. I'm trying to remember. They never stopped churning that shit out, I don't think. They just keep making movies and shows and I think. But I don't know. I can't speak to the flop or

the Elizabeth Banks of it all. Well, okay, Isaiah has pulled up now. Oh, yeah, I know who that is. Yeah. Okay, okay. Shouts to the Black Ranger, who was actually a black guy. Zach. He was the Mastodon. I remember. Yeah. So in addition to talking about Power Rangers, the White Ranger, and whether or not he was actually the Green Ranger, we are going to talk about. some rookies this podcast because Kyle is now our rookies expert. You are going to be dropping on the ringer.com.

A special build, as we call it internally. He's going to be ranking the rookies throughout the season. Kyle, are you excited to be on this journey along with these sprightly young players? Sprightly. Wow. Yeah, it's sort of a formality a little bit, I guess, because I'm always kind of in this lane anyway. I guess we're just sort of like acknowledging it in some official way. Because we've done rookie notebooks over the years.

We've done, you know, I always write about Summer League. I love to write about the draft. High school here and there. I'm like, you know, drop in a little bit of that and watch people's eyes glaze over as I talk about that. But, yeah, I'm very excited for reasons of it's fun to watch these guys. And we kind of talk about this in the intro of the site build is that it's just fun to watch these guys get their legs under them in a lot of different ways. A, because you'll see these wild nights where they get amped up to go toe to toe. with like somebody that's a star

or they might completely crap the bed in Madison Square Garden, which I'm sure we'll talk about. And just to watch them learn. It's just, it's a unique thing. It's a unique part of a player's career. And it's,

I do enjoy it. It's a good time. Yeah, so we're going to run through a bunch of the notable rookies today. I actually want to start big picture here because on a given night, there's usually one or two or three or four,

even five interesting rookies that you could find and just plug into. Is this one of the better classes, Kyle, you think we've had in a while? Is this like potentially historic territory we're on? Is this a tee up for me to say my big take about this class? Oh, I didn't know about this. Well, you deleted it from the thing, so I didn't know. So it'll be fresh for the listeners.

This really is an opportunity for me to confront Justin in a lot of, no. I'm ready for it. No. I have a shit. That's really what this podcast is, to be honest. No, my big take about this. I kind of had a, you know, when your face is kind of close to the canvas working on something,

you aren't always thinking about the 35,000 feet kind of thoughts about it. And when I actually finished the writing for this round of it, I took a step back and I was noticing the patterns of the things I was saying. And sometimes you get sick of hearing yourself say the same things over and over again. But this is a class that I think personally. Now, they've got to go do it. But there is like a setup here in the potential. I'll go and just fire it.

I think this could be the best defensive class, maybe ever. I was waiting for him to say best ever. I was like, okay, but defensive ever. I don't know. That's a strong take. Is that how sexy enough for you? Better than 1984, better than 1996. I love it.

I really, I really think the defensive talent in this class could be the best that we've seen. I mean, I can't think of another one that's comparable. I really can't. I mean, 84 is what, Hakeem Jordan? Barkley? I mean defensively, though, maybe not. The depth of it, though. I'm saying we've got...

He said Sam Bowie. Sam Bowie was a good player. He just had horrible luck. I mean, I'm not just saying that as a Kentucky guy, but he was a good player. He was like a nimble athlete when he was in college. His legs just kept breaking. I mean, that's the problem.

Yeah, but I mean, Jordan, Hakeem, John Stockton is... That's a tough defensive class to beat. Yeah. It's pretty good. That's top heavy. But we have Wimmy who could be I don't know how you want to segue into the sort of like one-by-one-by. Let's go ahead. Yeah, let's talk about Wemby.

Wimby has a chance. I'll just throw this to you all and see with your eyes, which you have observed, see if you disagree with this. I mean, I think he could be a defensive player of the year. For me, I've moved past that question. I'm like, yes, just him existing. He's one of those guys. I think there's a level you hit as a defensive player. AD has done this.

Gobert has done this. You think back about like the garnets and people like that. There's a level you hit where the stats, The raw stats don't quantify. They don't quantify because like when you would go on and look and you'd be like, okay, why is this guy not in as many? It's because there starts to be this like avoidance response to you in the stats that if you look in and look closely.

And I think Wimby's going to get there. He might already be there. Just like him just zoning on the weak side completely disrupts weak side offences for teams like where he's just standing there and like teams like on the weak side say they run their primary action to one side. It would be like, well, I know I can't skip it over there, and he's not moving. And then you're like, well, I know if I try to lob it to the rim, and I catch myself thinking, like, he could have gone for this or that play.

Like, he's not making wild gambles and, like, trying to swoop in and make the big play. He doesn't more in fourth quarters. But I just think that I've moved past the idea of him being the defensive player of the year. I feel like I'm pretty confident that's going to happen. It's more how soon. That's a conversation I haven't had with people like next couple, years. Like, I really, like, he's a generational defensive talent to me.

Wise, what do you think? I, you know, I think I've been probably the most skeptical Wembeyanama person in all of NBA media. I pretty quickly had to eat crow on that. I'm talking about, like, opening night. I was like, this doesn't make sense. To me, the defensive stuff is interesting because especially Biggs, they tend to get picked on very early on in pick and roll in ways that teams will just be like, we're just going to go to the well on putting this rookie in a bunch of pick and roll actions or putting them in off ball actions.

And Wembe just doesn't get picked on that way. Even if he's kind of in position, his physical abilities make it so that he's in a good defensive position. He's going to alter the trajectory of shots, watching people, you know, and this was happening, again, the first two weeks of the season, people practicing their moon shots in preparation to play against him.

I think I was never skeptical of his defensive potential. I think where I've really felt like I got the wimby thing wrong was just on offense. To me, the fact that he's getting to the free throw line already five times a game is crazy. You know, like people of his size, of his age, they just generally get pushed around. They're not used to the physicality of the league. They don't draw fouls, even when they're taller than everybody. And the fact that he's able to do that already just speaks volumes to me.

And the best thing about his offense is, you know, very hazard in our notes that he's at a 31% usage. When I watch their games, I feel like he should be using more possessions. Right. Right? Like, I feel like he's not doing enough. Like, he could be doing more.

And so that to me is what has blown me away. His ability to threaten on offense, whether it's lob, threats or, you know, people respecting the jump shot already and getting to the free throw line. These are things that take time to develop and he's already doing that. Rob. I think, was, to your point about the free throws, I think we're seeing a lot of ways in which Wemby's exact dimensions are a little bit different than even like a seven-footer, right?

I think part of the reason he draws contact so well and gets fouled as often as he does or those are called foul is it so exaggerated when you put a hand on his hip. And he's so dynamic and he's moving so well. that all those things, it calls attention to that kind of contact. We just don't see people move the way he does at his size ever. And so the fact that those elements are being put into a fluid offense are being put into situations where he's on the move and attacking. And he says he's as aggressive as he is,

even though his usage could be even higher as we've been saying. I just think it calls attention to what makes him so singular. And it puts him in just like a super rare group of players as far as what he could ultimately be. Watching him in transition is one of my favorite things. Like he moves, he kind of like bobs like an ostrich because his limbs have to catch up to where he is. And he'll just like wrap his arms around the ball like a high-ligh racket, whatever that thing is. It's just like it's outrageous. But the one thing that is still jumping out to me is how much, despite how large he is, how freakishy long he is.

He's still fading away at times, even when it's not Kevin Durant in front of him. It's just like a normal sized person like Bamadabaya or he'll even jump pass. but the jump is like an inch off of the floor. So he still does some of the young player things that he probably doesn't have to do because he doesn't have to actually jump to get ahead of all these guys. Kyle, are you surprised at all by some of the things he's doing on offense either like that he's not doing or that he's already like way past what you expected? It's a little bit of a mixed bag because I wrote, you know,

the one thing I'll say about what I wrote about him initially is that like his offensive profile right now is very poor zingasy in a butt, but he is not bound in the set. He moves better than Chris Habs probably ever did, honestly, and he's longer. And so, but we're seeing a lot of, like, face-up stuff. I mean, he's very face-up, heavily, heavily face-up dependent. We'll see him, like, they'll kick it out to him, and he'll just be wide open. The funny thing about him is if he's, if he has the ball, he's open, it's kind of like

the Brooke Lopez thing of just like he's going to, players, you'll always hear players talk about, like, it's so disrespectful. like Stephen Jackson was the guy who had a high release point would just shoot like nobody was there. Wimmy does that. There's no getting to his jump shot. I think I've been more curious about how they're going to work him into kind of hub status, which I think could happen and like where that would happen. We kind of talked about it a little bit in Summer League where I was like,

I expect him to get these kind of like short corner elbow post touches because he can see over everybody. he can get to that shot whenever he wants to. He doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, the dancing and the stuff that he did with Mets 92 where he'd get down. We've already seen him do his little, his in-and-out dribble crossover, and the guys in the NBA are just like, that's just not happening.

And I mean, like, I'm more fascinated, most fascinated with him about, like, how they're going to work him into, even though it's usage rate as high, like how are they going to more efficiently run everything through him? Because I think, I don't want to get carried away with him, but like, I think he could become an elite passer, too.

Like, he makes passes on a nightly basis that are, like, really, really incredible, like threading things through windows. He just, he has touch at the end of that length that is really, really uncommon, like control in his, like, extremities that is just phenomenal. Rob, what do you think about how they're using Wembe in St. Antonio? You're surprised that, like, even still early in the games, it seems like it's the Vesel time, and then they slowly default to Wembe. And there's actually kind of been something of a backlash where it's like get wem me the ball more.

Are you in that camp or where do you fall on that? I kind of admire the restraint. And some of it's like from a long term team building standpoint, you want Devin Vassell to be on board with this. You want Kelden Johnson to be on board with this. Like whoever you consider to be the core members of this group, you want them to feel good about how the balance of this is going to work. And those guys will naturally find times to get Victor involved. I like that there, you know, there is a balance between him getting the ball and being able to cook and show off everything he can do. But they also just like have Victor run to the rim and seal a guy and throw it over the top a fair amount where like that, that's just going to be there against every team in the league for as long as he plays basketball.

I like those elements too in addition to what he could eventually be as a hub as you were saying, Kyle. And I mean, this is the thing is like, Victor is such an absurd player that when you describe him as being the hub of an offense, I'm genuinely thinking. If this guy runs a dribble handoff, is the handoff too high for the average point guard? Like, is it an eye level versus like chest pocket level? Was, what do you think about him? I, it's interesting that Kyle brought a KP because I was very close to that because it started out on the Knicks. And yes, a lot of it does remind me a KP in the sense that a lot of the diet is pick and pop rolling to the rim. even early on, KP flashed a level of rim protection that I don't think people were expecting.

I think this year he's finally realized the potential of what his rim protection and defensive capabilities always should have been. But it usually came out in spurts. And I just looked this up. Like, KP's rookie year, he average like 3.6 free throws at a game. He didn't get over four until his third year. You know, just the fact that he's all. already more physical than poor Zingis is in how he executes what he's trying to do. To me, that's what makes him, you know, just really exciting as an offensive threat.

The thing about KP is that his center of gravity was so freaking high is basically at his nipples. He was very easy to push around, you know, meaning a guy like Pat Bev could get switched on to him in a playoff setting, right? And that's why ultimately he didn't feel as imposing as he should have. To me, when Vinyama's already, he's already exerting his will in the ways, like, in his first 20 NBA games, it shouldn't be happening like this. And that it already is, you know, and the jump shot is, you know, is coming and going early on in the year. But, you know, to think that that's going to be at like 36 percent. And he's going to be able to crush small guys trying to switch on him. and he's going to be a vertical threat when they lobbed to it.

Like, it's just a lot to me to be excited about. And again, the passing, Chris Taps just didn't have that to his game. He wasn't that, he didn't have that level of imagination in where he was trying to go with the ball. And so to me, like, it's just, I think Chris Taps was the person that everybody looked to to be like, oh, this reminds us of what Chris Taps was doing just more exaggerating. But yeah, he's doing everything better.

already. Right. Everything. Wembe, just a natural passer and team first sort of guy, you could always see it. Like, he's always looking to get everyone involved. He seems like a good guy to play with in the huddles. And so, like, I'm excited to see what his effect is going to be on the Vassil, on the Sohan, some of these other guys who they're expecting to bring around along him.

Kyle, are there improvement areas that you're looking at? You're like, oh, well, he's doing all these things amazingly, but it's like one, two, three things like he really needs to be improving on this year. Well, I mean, the shooting is, he's leaning on it so heavily. Like, I was pulling it up. Like, you'd like to see that come around. I'm sure if you ask Pop about that, he would bristle and say that they trust in it, whatever. But, like, the dribble jumper right now, yeah, I mean, he's shooting 25% on all dribble jumpers on unguarded catching shoot shots.

He's shooting 28.6%. Shooting better when he's being defended, actually, you know, 10 percentage points higher at almost 40. I think that he's been the most impressive to me. Some of this, I think, is, comes back to an internal debate that I've just kind of enjoyed watching within the ringer between different folks that like, the question of like where the spurs are going impacts this. Like, you know, because they don't have a lot of natural kind of passers on the team. Like, you know. They need to point guard. Yeah.

I mean, point guard is such a charged word these days. He looked right at Rob when he said that. No, I'm just saying it's. He knew his audience. I catch myself doing it where I'll be like. I'll be like, I want to use the word point guard, but I'll just say facilitator. Like they need someone that can, that is like a, I'm really big about like guys who like the ball moves through them. We had that discussion about like, and Vassell is growing into a guy who like his passing is responding to his natural skill set, which is like he can be in a ball screen, hit a pullup jumper.

Keldon very much the same. These aren't guys that grew up with this inclination. And I think that's penalizing Victor a little bit. So I just think that it's going to be kind of where it's touch is coming. So I want to ask you this, though, because I think about the success that Minnesota is having right now. And it's hard for me to separate that success from Mike Conley's presence. Just the stilted nature of the offense before they got Mike Connolly to just having this guy that understands like, every now and again, I need to just give Rudy a fucking pocket pass. It might not work.

Like he might blow the layup. But we need to do these things and, like, having an intimate feel of understanding what to do that. And then I think about when Jason Kidd was doing the Point Yonis thing, which obviously was disaster for wins and losses. But Janus developed as a ball handler and a passer because of those responsibilities. So I wonder, you know, in Victor's development, like this point Vassell thing or, you know, so high. thing, like, how do you balance that sacrifice, right? I'm sacrificing the offensive development of one, Victor, being the most important person in the building, but also I'm turning these guys into more well-rounded hoopers.

How do you thread that needle is what I'm saying? I think you thread it by just leaning into it and being bad and just, like, waiting. I mean, I think they're in a position where they don't really have much to, like, you know, they're obviously not super interested in being competitive on a certain level right now. And it's reps are really important. And if you can get them, you know, if you can get that kind of open road in a situation like this, you just seize the opportunity, I think. Because it's important.

It is important. All these things are true at once. Like, I mean, it's important for Vesel to develop this as a score. It's important for Kelton to do this. It's important for Zach Collins to develop. But, you know, I do think eventually they're going to have to just have, there's some other element, I think, that's missing from. their offense. And I think people underrate,

connector is a word that just came up over and over and over again in these rookie ranking things that I wrote that like, sometimes you just need the sanity of knowing when a ball needs to be reversed. Sometimes you need the sanity of knowing just those things, that helps your offense kind of pass

with purpose, I think, because people talk about just moving the ball. You know, you can just pass the ball without purpose and go nowhere, but a guy like that helps just bring kind of order. And that's really all, that's I mean by when I say San Antonio needs somebody like that. Yeah, I think what I'll add to the great Spurs point guard debate of 2023 is there are prospects who you worry about the lack of a functional offense because it denies them opportunity.

It literally takes the ball out of their hands. It doesn't get where it needs to go. The ball is finding Victor Webbenyama. It's almost impossible for it not to find him. And so if you're that kind of player who's going to get 30% usage even when you have a suboptimal point guard, I'm just not worried. about your developmental trajectory in terms of like getting the necessary touches. Yeah.

So we mentioned the usage rate, 30.9 going into Tuesday night's game against the Thunder. A little chokish level. Yeah. He wishes. So there have been three rookies in history, or at least according to the history tracked by Stathead,

with a 30 plus usage percentage and played a full allotment of game. Waz already blew the trivia by looking at the answers. So can Rob and or Kyle named the three rookies who had a 30 or more usage as a rookie played a full allotment of games. Over 60 games. One's pretty recent.

30 is a lot. And so many of the really high usage guys in a recent memory were kind of brought in a little bit slow. Like my instinct is to say Luca. Luca is a rookie. I mean, well, I was thinking Oscar Robertson would have been another one. but because it was similar, like the stat thresholds that Luca hit was like Jordan, Robert, Oscar Robertson.

And that's the one that's the only one that I can think of. The other two are very tough. It's Ben Gordon, who played a huge toll on that whole scene. And Cedric Sabalos. Whoa. Zion and Embed technically did it, although that was in 24 games and 31 games. LeBron was at 28.2. So just in that range, but not quite 30.

A higher usage than even rookie. LeBron for Wembe is incredible. That's incredible. A lot of it is, you know, you might say, well, he needs it for development. Sometimes you just, as a rookie, you'd never put yourself in position to own that many possessions. That he's already doing this is crazy to me. Like, it's nuts that he's able to get this much usage out of a roster that, you know, isn't so well balanced in these early stages of his career.

like, that's amazing to me. Only the true elites get those opportunities. The victors, the Ben Gordon's. The Cedric Sabalas is, of course. The Cedric Sabales. Was that Ben Gordon year? Is that the only time a rookie also won six man of the year? I'm pretty sure.

I can't think of another one. That's definitely one way to juice the usage, like come off the bench, get literally every shot for a team that doesn't have enough bench guys. Right. You probably wasn't playing the same amount of minutes that maybe even Victor is playing. She just deuce the usage, the Rob Mahoney story. Right.

So. Good Lord. Take that off the resume, please. Speaking of our beautiful, gangly boys amongst the rookie class, Chet Holmgren, Waz's current favorite player in the league. We're recording this on Tuesday morning, so this is before the Chet and Wembe Bowls. We won't have perspective on that.

But, Kyle, what have you thought about Chet so far this season? Me. That's your guy? I love him. Love him. I, well, let's start here. I mean, like, obviously there's the, there's the Blake Griffin thing going on. Or it was, uh, it was Donovan and Ben Simmons, right?

They had that they had their like, you over there. And Jason Tatum. Right, right, right. But I think Ben Simmons and Donovan were beefing on the internet. Tatum had the grace to stay out of that. Mitchell had the shirts. Good for him. He had the merch to go with the billboards.

The whole branding campaign. Donovan was very available that year. You know what I mean? He had a year where he was just very available. I remember like when they drafted Grayson Allen and he just like, He just like photo bomb the post draft interview. I was like, that was when I realized. I was like, this dude is maybe just turn it down a couple notches.

No, I mean, Chet, I say all that to say. Chet, the year was good for him. I mean, I think that's definitely the case. He's one of those guys that doesn't necessarily show. He always played well through contact. We knew he wasn't a wilting flower. I remember in his draft profile I wrote about like there was a play. This was after I'd watched like a lot of his college games.

there was a play against Jalen Duren in the tournament where he like took the contact and fell backwards. And I was like, that was the most pathetic flop I've ever seen in my life. And my first instinct was just like, oh, like I was turned off by it. I was turned off by it. I was just like, what the hell? Wow. And then I got thinking about it, though. And I was like, you know, I can't ever remember him flopping before.

And I was like, he probably was terrible about it because that ain't, that ain't chat. That's just not what he does. I've made this point over and over again that, like, this guy, you know, he was, he is the Bain thing going on. Like, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, man, mask bane. Desmond's not wearing a mask, I don't think, right now. But anyway, he might to hide his face from how bad the grizzlies are. But, um, hi-yo. But Chet is, he's a perfect, like, he's a perfect sort of balancing, like, skill-wise to, like,

what OECC is doing. But if you just look at him totally in a compartment, like aside from his team situation, which is great, he's doing things that are just incredible. I mean, he's spacing the floor really, really well. He's doing things that we thought that he could do. And the point I made in his piece is that like,

the better he shoots that ball, the more vulnerable fives are against him because he can handle it. Like he can really get low and handle the ball. He has a few different kind of moves in his repertoire that make Biggs uncomfortable away from the rim most bigs. He is an incredible rim deterrence because he picks his battles so, so well. Like he doesn't make a move on the ball until it is the, you just don't see him over his

skis a lot. Nope. Making plays on the ball. Like when he makes a play on the ball, it's the precise moment to make it. And his IQ just shows up a lot. And he's a great passer in that sense, too. Been a really, really nice spacer for them. I posted a clip that I hope people will check out of their offense, their spacing, breathes.

Like, literally, I just rewounded a couple times and watched it breathe like an organism where they have to, and the reason it breathes is they have to respect him. So I just think, you're talking about like the defensive ceiling of this class, I think Chet could be an all NBA player. Like, he's he is on a path to become one of the best two-way players in the league. And if his catch-all metrics hold, he's going to be. be like historically very, very good. Like he's on a crazy path right now. Was, can I sidebar with you for a second? Yes, yeah, let's do it.

We had a conversation a couple of pods ago comparing where Chet was offensively to where Evan Mowgli is offensively. And this was three, I think it was three games into Chet's career. You were raving. I was hemming and hawing. And I would like to amend my statement

and say that Chet is definitely definitively more skilled offensively than Evan Mowgli is because honestly, I'm thinking about how many seven footers in the league can do the things that Chet can do on offense right now. That list is like Yokic, Embed, Towns. Porzingis, I think is probably in that group. Wembe.

Other than that, I think that might be it. To me, it's not even just the shooting, which, again, you know, certain rookies got credit for having jumpers coming in. Chet has actually proven it on the court, right? So it's not even just the shooting. For me, it's the fluidity. Yes.

With which he's doing, like he has, his moves have counters. His dribble moves have counters. It's not just the up and unders and the duckins and stuff like. It's the way that he handles the ball is like a six-foot-six wing. He looks like a six-foot-six wing with the crossovers and the change of directions and all. It looks so natural. His feel is so natural. That's what I love.

about it. And also on this team, he absolutely needs to be somebody who lets the game come to him. And he's doing that. He's allowing J-dub. He's allowing Shay to dominate possessions. Again, 19%

usage. He needs to get that up. Whenever I'm watching him, I'm like, Chad, you got to do even more than that. I don't know. I mean, I just personally would like to see it. I just personally would like to see him do it. This is the thing, though, is like the difference in Kyle what you were laying out in terms of the spacing between just creating space versus a guy who could both create and use it. Jaylon Williams, he made a fair number of three. Shot like 40% from three last year was not respected as a threat like Chet is.

And when he puts the ball on the floor, Chad is just so dynamic in those situations. Yeah, the context between difference between Wembe and Chet is so fascinating to me. Just because you look at a Thunder game and Chet's just playing alongside. what is basically the U.S. versus the world team, just like on the same roster. And so, like, statistically, Kyle, like the Wembe and Chet lines look pretty similar right now. Efficiency-wise, Chet is just off the charts. He's 55, 50, 90.

Let's just say that, like, this is where they end up at the end of the season. Are you more likely to, let's say, you have a theoretical rookie the ear vote? Or just, like, trying to balance, like, context and everything like that. Are you more impressed with Wembe because he's driving so much more offense? someone like Chet who's just taking what the game affords and what his offense and all these these other all-star level players are allowing him to do. Well, what if they switch places? That's always my thing.

I mean, I think in this situation, if you have like a center and you have like a smaller ball handler, you can't do that. You know, I always love to do it with the Yokic-M-B thing. Like I just like, well, what would happen if we change the place? I mean, I think, I think Wimby would be a little more. Please don't start that conversation. We know what would happen. It wants to get it.

One team would still go to the finals. the other would, you know. Yeah. Who wants to get the basketball brain cancer? I, like, it is a cancerous. It is a carcinogen that discussion, in my opinion. No, like, if you had Victor, I think he'd be more efficient overall. I mean, I think he's probably, like, I think it would be.

He's taking harder shots now. That's why his efficiency is lower. To me, it's obvious why the percentages don't look. Like, he's taking. much harder shots, he's constantly having to set up himself, because, you know, again, he doesn't play with a setup guy. Like, to me, that's just what those efficiency differences speak to. I think I'm just more curious about, like, how you evaluate both of the performance.

Like, if you had a rookie of the year vote, like right now, let's say we stopped it after 10 games. Like, we will not. We cannot. Oh, stop it with the sanctimonious bullshit. To me, it's Wembe because he's doing harder things. Yeah. He's being asked to do things that are much more difficult, particularly at this stage his career. Like, this is way harder to do your first taste of the NBA than, you know, Chech getting to very meticulously pick his spots.

But Rob, if I incorporated, like, where they are in the standings, too, like, do you give Chet more credit? Because he's on a part of what, the Thunder and the Fifth in the West right now? I mean, I'll say this. Like with rookie of the year, I barely ever consider team context, except in like very aberrational cases. Well, we did it with Scotty and Mobley, right? This was the conversation. Scottie drove more offense, but Mobley was on a better team playing better defense, right? I mean, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't vote for him.

We know who we voted for Rob. We know who you voted for. Here's the thing about Chet, though. I agree with everything that you said was as far. the difficulty of the stuff Victor Webiamma is doing is more difficult. Chad is also doing something that's pretty difficult, which is he is playing in more of a complimentary role, right?

Very much like a spacer on a lot of possessions where he's playing out of that stuff. He's doing that, but he's bringing force and he's bringing edge. And like honestly, for young players, that can be really difficult. They're so used to having the ball in their hands at every level, that's where they get their energy from.

And so the fact that he's able to be picking his spots, but when he does, he picks forcefully, very, very impressive for a player his age. Indicative of his IQ, I think, overall. I mean, if you look at their usage types, I've got it pulled up here, like the percentage of the time that they do certain things. I mean, Wimby's is way more, even though we're talking about, like, him being put in better positions and things like that, he's in way more, like, initiating situations.

Like, he's handling it more in ball screens. He's got more post-ups. He's, you know, he's getting more stuff done in handoffs. but Chet, to Rob's point, yeah, is in a more complimentary role. And I don't know, he'd be curious. I think he is getting a lot more efficiency, too, out of that extra added year of strength that Wimby really, really needs. Because he just can't run. You saw it against the Knicks.

I mean, like, he just can't run a straight line down the, like, he just can't do it. Mitchell Robinson was bullying him. It was not nice. So you can just get up under him too easily right now. And I think once he adds, and I think his frame will add. I think he'll always be a little vulnerable in that sense. Chet's just... Chet?

No, I think Wimmy will always be a little more vulnerable. Like, I don't know if we'll ever see him. Like, I don't know, it's hard to say. It's hard to, it's hard to project just how much stronger he'll get. But he'll get more of those, I think, as he does. I don't know if you watch the Sacramento game, Kyle, Oklahoma City in the in-season tournament. There was a point in the, I think it was the third court. It was some point in the second half where Sacramento just decided we're going to put Chet in a bunch of picking rolls.

and we're just going to let Sabonis bully the hell out of them. And to the point that you made, Sabonis was charging, okay? He was putting his shoulder down right into Chet's chest and just bulldozing his way to the basket. There's like three, four possessions in a row that he did this. And Chet just, you know, sort of took the contact and enough space was created that Sabonis could actually be effective.

It's like one of the few things offensively you're like, oh, this is a thing that he can do. He can bully. you know, people that are skinnier than him or smaller than him and stuff like that. The damning with faint praise going on right now. The backhanded compliment to DeMontos a bonus.

I'll also say that Drew Eubanks kind of got him similarly the next night. And like, to Chet's credit, he came back because he's just so fucking relentless. He's just constantly trying to find ways to solve these problems on the fly. And what I'm saying, I say all that to say, there's going to be a point where he gets strong enough

that a six foot nine guy is not going to be able to create enough space to get a nice shot off. At this point right now, even somebody who's way shorter than him, like Sabonis, can put himself in positions where he's just bodying this guy up, going straight into his chest and getting the recitative space,

requisite space to get the shot off. But soon enough, he's going to be strong enough where it's like that's going to be marginal space created and he's going to swallow that guy's stuff whole. Sorry about the language there. Jesus Christ. What the hell? Welcome to the show.

I don't know how to segue out of that, but just that I think that's one of the biggest differences between them right now is I think players in the league respects Chet's energy and who he is as a shot blocker, but he does not have the the nope factor that Victor Webbenyama does. The come around to screen and just you turn, I don't want any part of this guy factor. Like he is a little bit more like a let me challenge him and see if I can dunk on it. Let me challenge him and see if I can bully him. And again, very hard thing to quantify and measure the like all hell no of those moments. But Chet, I think over time, as we're saying, as he gets stronger too, will stand up even better to those sorts of challenges. He gives me vibes. Like when I was, he gives me vibes.

Yeah, I was going to say, you got to say it a little sexier. Fanning myself like a southern person. Yeah, anyway, when I was like evaluating him, I probably said this somewhere else, but I'll say it again. I was kind of like projecting what I thought he could do, what I thought was realistic. And when I mapped it out, I thought it was all pretty reasonable. Like, I was like, this is what I think statistically he could do. And every name that came up was a Hall of Famer. And I was like, and when you do something like that, I was like, well, Kyle, you probably overdid it there. So I was like, dial it back a little bit. And it's still like barely budged. I mean, it was like, so he gives me, he gives me this vibe of like a cross between. I literally might get.

struck by lightning for saying this, but he gives me a vibe of like a cross between like a Powell Gasol and like with some some AD mixed in there. Like the defense, the defense doesn't totally cover it with Gasol, but like the offensive IQ, man, that's who he reminds me of. And I love Paul Gasol. Like I, and this is really funny. I had that in my mind last year when I was thinking, when I was thinking about him and when we were in Salt Lake City, Powell was out in front of our hotel in the roundabout and I stood there and I just kind of stared at his body

okay all right I was like he's going to cancel the show and I was like because he's not as big as he was when he was playing but I was like I was looking at him and I was like I'm probably a Google like a dot on a Google map somewhere now but like I was like I was

just looking at his frame and I was and I was like you know I was like how eventually got physical enough where you could not push him around yeah and he was never this like big muscle-bound dude, but he became, you know, he grew into his body in such a way. Yeah, he just, he couldn't be moved. So, yeah, Powell, that is a beautiful comp.

Oh, my God. Wow. Powell meets AD. Lord have mercy. If that ends up being true, I mean, yeah, he's going to be a hallfamer. And I was pointing out that, like, his, his box plus minus right now is one of the ones that, like, historically, I've kept an eye on that, like, usually if you can't get your head above water with box plus minus by year, by year two, usually, there are examples

of guys who are, they're. usually younger, but like if you're going to be an MVP level player by year two, your head's got to be above water there. And if your head is well above water in year one in Boxless minus, not that this is gospel, but Chet is at like four and a half right now. That's crazy. He's, he is very, very good. And any other year, he would be the obvious rookie of the year, I think. All right. We need to move along from our gangly alien. From our tent revival in here around the gospel of Chet? Yeah. Cash in on bawling out this NBA season with Fandul, America's number one sportsbook.

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unfortunately has been limited to five games because of this ankle sprain. I'll say this. I was watching him against Detroit the other night. When he has the ball and he's passing it, looks pretty good. Anytime he's not doing that, Kyle, I don't actually know what he's doing. Where did you fall on the scoot experiment after five games, which is actually much fewer than even some of the other guys we're talking about? This has been tough for me because like throughout the year I was, I was pretty hard on scoot, like in terms of just like putting his, you know,

putting him to the fire a little bit. like because it was it was one of those like we were just we had coronated him from the beginning of the year and I don't like situations like that I'm just like okay we got to have some like diversity of thought with this guys so over the year I was a little worried and then when I dug into the tape and I listened to him talk I was like this guy I was like I trust him to get better like when I would just listen to him and I was like he he really had a good command of his gears like he could play slower better than a lot of like athletic point cards do but I was like a lot of it is going to lean on some of the these offensive things like working because if they don't work, the big thing for me, the word I keep using is leverage. Like he has been like he was heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy elbow pull up jumpers like with the G league ignite. That's his favorite shot. You listen to him talk. He was like, that's where I like to shoot. He didn't shoot an incredible percentage from there. I mean, it was like not enough for him to justify it. So when he starts playing with the Blazers, not only did those like diminish a little bit, they're just gone. Like those attempts are just gone

from his game. And one of the things that I was talking about with him that I hoped that he could develop was just middle game. Like, because right now he just doesn't have any kind of offense going on. There was a play against the Raptors where Schroeder was guarding him. And DeAndre Aiton, he gets a screen. And then you could tell that like, Scoot was like, I'm going to shoot this pull up three. So they re-screen again. And Schrooter at one point just backs up and he's like, you might get. and it like misses badly. So the thing is like he started a bit, I think he's like 19% from three or something.

10. No, it's even low. It's 9.5. 9.5. Yeah, it's really, really low. 19. I was giving him way too much credit there. He just,

he's going to have to find out how to pick his spots better. Like you were saying, like he's a breathtaking athlete, like when he's in space. Like the point I make it on our build, not to spoil it too much, is that like defenders are saying thank, thank, Christ when he decides not to attack the rim. And like, when he's, that's his strength. I don't know that he's ever going to be like an elite elite score, but I think that he, he will be a good enough facilitator and like, like, draw free throws and things like that.

I think those things are going to come around. But like, he's, I think he's getting his legs under him, like, getting comfortable in terms of like where his spots are and when. Yeah, he's played five games, as you said, Justin. He's made four total shots outside the paint. Not great. Not ideal for where you want him to be. And honestly, I can't think of a player in the.

a league that needs to go to floater school more than Scoot Henderson. Like he needs a way where if he's not getting all the way, he's got some option. Because I love what he's doing as a pocket passer. Right. Like you can see him hitting guys on time, connecting even with bigs who don't have the best hands. And I think the most glowing endorsement. I mean, one big glaring example.

And I think the biggest endorsement of where Scoot is right now is the dip in DeAndre Aiton's production when he's off the floor, right? like Aiton has already become like pretty reliant on scoot setting him up in good spots and he's doing it. You just need to see the scoring game round out so that defenses don't start playing him for that all the time. You can't be a great like he's an unselfish player. Like he is a willing to fur like he does not mind doing that. He doesn't have a, he's a smart player. He's not he doesn't have an agenda that that sabotages him.

But yeah, you can't you can't, we've seen this with Ben Simmons. He had passing chops. If you can't, you got to leverage like I always say playmaking is a responsive. skill set. Like if you don't have respect, you're just not going to. It doesn't matter how willing you are to give up the ball if defenses aren't reacting to the things that you're doing. And what I would say to people is like, point guard is hard.

Yeah. For a rookie. Yeah. Absolutely. It's hard. You look up what Mike Conley or Kyle Lowry or Kyrie Irving or I'm talking about these Jamal Murray. Darius Garland was bad.

These guys are all-star. These guys are all-star. point guards in the NBA, you go back and look at what they did their first few games in the league or even their rookie years, damn near the whole thing. It was ugly, right? And so I'm not surprised. I think the situation in Portland got so nasty over the summer and, you know, I was waiting for you to take a minute. Listen, listen, no, no, no, no. Justin literally made a face. You guys know each other too well. I'm just saying, like, look, I think people got a little carried away. And Kyle was speaking to that.

There was this savior situation of, you know, we're getting rid of Dame. We've done that. That's ran its course. And now we have this new shiny savior object coming into the situation. And it's a lesson like, yo, like young guys don't just come in and change your life. And also, it's not like LeBron and even KD and other guys who came in. Like, even if they weren't playing winning ball, it was so freaking exciting. right away that everybody had a right to be,

wow, this is going to be incredible pretty soon here. That hasn't happened with Scoop. But again, he's playing the hardest position on the court, which is facilitating NBA offense. It's probably the only other thing that's harder is big man defense, right? And so, you know, like, he needs time. The jumper's not falling. I'm not surprised by that.

Like, this shit is hard. I know that's not, like, groundbreaking analysis, but there's a reason why everybody comes in and struggles. Like the people who did, it's like Chris Paul, who would have been a junior in college, his rookie year. You know, like, it's different. Like, these guys are going to struggle. Yeah.

The other thing I would tack on is you mentioned the big man hands. You mentioned, like, Portland. I know, have you guys ever played Bioshock? Rob, have you played Bioshock? I haven't actually. Oh, I have. Yep. There's a thing I always think about when I think about the flow of NBA offense is this is really

dumb. I almost put it in something one time, but like there's that, you know, and you can't wait to cut it out. You know? Do you hear that sheen sound? That was Justin's sharpening knives. Personal manic note, cut it. Anyway, so there's that, there's those prompts where you can

hack a terminal and it's a little mini game where you had to direct the flow of this thing from one side to the other based on the pieces you had. So like, I always think about the, not always, but frequently we'll think about like, offense is have to have a way. And it's usually,

my point is that, like, Portland is an offense with a lot of guys who are leaning towards creating for themselves. There's not a lot of liquidity, like fluidness, fluidity between like getting on and off the ball. And they really need Scoot to

be that person for them because Simons is a score primarily. You know, Shane Sharp, we know what he is. You know what my favorite thing about watching Portland is? Jeremy Grant, same thing. Like, Shaden Sharp out of nowhere will just fly into the frame as if he's like a superhero learning how to fly. Like, just out of nowhere.

It's just one of the most wild things. But sorry. I've tried to, like, somebody from P3 was, because I was trying to figure out, like, why some of those guys look like they're, like, in the air longer. Like, and because Morant was one that I was obsessed with. And they were talking about there's something in their mid frame. I think he was saying, like, the torso, like, their ability. like stretch themselves when they're in the air makes it seem like they're in the air. Like

that's a digression, I know. But yeah, like I'll like screenshot the frame by frames of Shaden sometimes when he's in the air. He floats. He's like an Olympic long jumper. He's like in, he's such a crazy athlete. But they, they're a team of pieces that are kind of pointed in different directions. And I think that's making it look worse in my opinion.

Well, and Scoot is a part of that too in the sense that he's still learning, as you're saying, Kyle, like to understand how to navigate the flow of a complete offense. I think right now, you can almost see his cone of vision to the basket, to the rolling big, like primary options. Like he is clearly making his reads in kind of a sequential order. What he's not really getting to yet is the kick. Like he's not really setting up three point shooters, even though the Blazers have some of those guys. Like they have guys who can knock down some shots. He's just not like trained to think in terms of that dynamic yet. And so for a pastor who's

already like on point in his delivery and clearly has a has a want and an instinct to deliver the ball. There's a lot of room for growth here as a playmaker. There's a lot of room for a much, like, more advanced, more sophisticated Scoot Henderson in year three to make an enormous jump. Yeah. So we should also talk about the guy that the Hornets took above Scoot. That's Brandon Miller.

Unlike the first three guys we talked about, Kyle, I don't really have a clear sense of what Brandon Miller is going to be. Like, is this like a Paul George 2.0 situation? Like, what is his future not only just as a player, but maybe even, even in connection with lamello ball and how they fit together? I was pretty, I mean, you can go listen to it. If I'm wrong, people will be able to kick my ass around the room for this. But I was, I was pretty set on them taking scoot.

I thought that that would be a better fit. I thought that, like, the lamello scoot thing I could see working. I, like, I understand the allure of having, like, two, you know, like very flexible, elastic, skinny guys that can, like, dribble pull-up shoot and live dribble pass. Like, I saw the appeal of, putting Miller with Lamello and to the question of like what Miller could become. It's hard to say.

I think the Paul George thing I always have a hard time with because like if you're if you're going to look at I actually built. Remember I built out a huge comparison. I started getting down this road. But Justin and I were like this is just way too much. I was just kind of like laying out got like guys that are over six nine or in that six eight to six nine six 10 ball handler range. What causes them to become?

superstars. And I was looking at like Jason Tatum from like 18 to 21, Pascal Seacum from 18 to 21. The big thing is like, you know, rim pressure is the thing that unlocks it typically. Handle is the thing that helps you get the handle begets handle begets decision making. It begets everything. Like it just opens up a whole world. Miller right now, I'm not sure how much I, like he's one of those dudes. If he is a runway, you're going to be like, holy shit.

Like, that guy can, like, throw down. He'll drop a hammer. But if somebody's in his way, you start to see him kind of, like, shimmying, like, a weird guy to dance. Like, he just kind of, he, like, doesn't look comfortable with it. Like, when he's going to the basket, there's a clip that I put in the thing where he just gets run out of bounds. I forget who the guy was guarding it.

But he just doesn't have that, like, get to the rim, dust him physicality the way Paul George did at the same age. So I'm not sure there could be a world where he leans into being a, like, a guy who, like, makes a quick pick and roll read if it's there gets off the ball relocates shoots it i mean we've seen some of that from from like michael porter junior but just with a little more passing set in so the conversation about him becoming like a star superstar i think is contingent on that stuff yeah i don't know about superstar kind of player but when you so when you guys talk about six

foot nine six foot ten ball handlers like my mind goes to lamar odum that's who i think about who's he's going to be a superstar in his role, and he might be able to sneak onto an all-star game or two just by being on a really good team and being that third Draymond Green type that ends up making the all-star team, but I don't think he's going to be a dude that generates offense at an elite level at any point.

But I still think, you know, elite role-playing is valuable. I just love the guys feel. I keep saying that, like, his understanding of hoop is incredible. And if he could get his three-point shooting up and, you know, he attacks mismatches when the opportunity presents himself and he's a transition guy and things like that, then he'll be able to plug in the gaps around somebody who's doing elite creation. I don't know that he's going to be the guy necessarily to do that because I just don't, he doesn't have, you know, he's not extremely quick, right?

He's not, I don't think he's going to be like this really strong person like a Zion who just muscles people, right? I don't think he's going to present this elite physical nature at any point in his career. And so he's just going to be a skills guy. And I think that can be really valuable if you're really smart on defense and you know how to move the ball around and you can knock down an open shot. Like all of that in one package is a very valuable player. It's just not a superstar player. What else counterbalance all this is that so far he has not played in a way where it like insists upon. he doesn't insist upon himself as a top pick, right?

Like he doesn't play in a way that dominates the ball. He's playing off of Lamello and Gordon Hayward and trying to figure out ways to compliment those guys. And one of the things I've been personally really shocked by is he is getting after it defensively. And this is one of the spots where Kyle, to your point about this being such an impressive top to bottom defensive draft class. Like Brandon Miller, 6-9 plus wingspan.

It's like seven feet. He's long as shit. He's got arms for days. And the Hornets are trusted. him to guard Kyrie Irving, Tyreys Halberd, Jalen Brunson, Mikhail Bridges, Jordan Poole. Right? Like he's getting thrown on those assignments. Yeah. And he's acquitting himself pretty well. Yeah. I, it's, he competes, you know. It's, it's funny, like, I was joking with Tate the

other day about the height thing. He's one of those guys that has been a casual. I'm trying, I've been, like, going and, like, getting, like, photos of him next to Lamello. I'm trying to figure out exactly how tall he is. I feel like he might be, like, six, six, seven, and three quarters or something because Lamello seems like he was a little overlisted because we heard that Brandon Miller was 6.9, oh, he's 6.9 and you just get so excited about that number as a ball handler.

And then he was 6.7, he's listed on the thing. Not that it matters, but he is long and, yeah, really competitive. His energy on defense has been really impressive to me. He was guarding Kyrie the other day, and he could have almost enveloped him with just how long he is. He felt like he could have just smothered him with all that.

And to me, the Igies, the Draymonds, the Al Horford's, Like, these kind of guys on great teams that, again, aren't the drivers necessarily of what's happening on offense, they still get paid, man. Like, these are still really valuable pieces. And so, like, you know, again, if you become an elite Swiss Army knife, which, sure, you probably can't murder anybody with one, but you could do some damage, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's still a valuable piece to a team. I'm still excited to see how he develops. What would be your go-to Swiss Army knife killing move?

Are you going tweezers? Are you going to corkscrew them? What are you thinking? Whatever is like the, it's like almost like a knife or nail fowler or whatever that is. You might just have to do, just try to get the neck. You know, you'll do some damage. You just won't be able to kill NBA defenses with it. All right.

Let's do kind of like a lightning round on some of these other guys that have been intriguing early on. Kyle, do you want to do Case & Wallace or Derek lively first? Let's do lively. Let's do lively. He deserves it. He deserves it. So is there anything more to lively than the very obvious Tyson Chandler comp that I probably made in my mind every single time I've watched him? I think there's more.

Yeah. I think he's shown. It's always hard because when guys grow up in different eras because, you know, Tyson Chandler was a senior in like, what, 2000, 2001, I think. I remember. But like the game was just different back then. And would he have been able to play? To answer your question, he has more, and I think it's probably the result of when he grew up. Like we saw lively spacing a little more.

Granted, his shot is still fairly hypothetical. I mean, I think his ball skills-wise, like, he has more kind of growth play on his game than Chandler. But just the simple, that simple primary element of him being able to. I was watching him, we dumb it down sometimes. We're just like, well, he's just running to the room and catching lobs. It's like, no, I mean, there's more to it than that. Like, he was reading screens really well. Like, I was watching him with Luca, and it's, it's amazing.

Like, he's playing a core role. Granted, this is the perfect role for him in the situation in person to be with. But he's doing it well. And I think that's, you got to applaud it. Their offense is humming right now. Rob, did you see how nicely he answered my question where you were just like, oh, yeah, just absolutely not. I mean, that's the answer to your question is definitely not. Should I just have said what you said, Rob?

Absolutely not. Is that the way to go? I would have walked out of the room. Rob was offended by the Tyson Chandler. Rob did write a book about the Mavs. So he is the expert here. I have all the respect in the world for Tyson Chandler, but when I see Derek Laugley,

I see a guy who can pass, a guy who has really good feel for that kind of connection. And that was never Tyson's game and he was never asked to do those things. But when Luca is the primary driver of your offense, it's one thing to be a great roller, to be a Dwight Powell in those situations. But if you're a great roller who can catch the free throw line and attack,

who can catch lobs that are really high, who can catch and read a defense and spray out to the corner, that's a next level contribution. So I think Lively has a really high ceiling for Dallas. Like he could be a really important piece of the construction of that team. How many times this season do you think Grant Williams has caught the ball and looked at who's in front of him, no one frequently? and thought, damn.

Like, compared to, like, what was going on in the past, like, he has been the chief beneficiary, I feel like of that triumph, of, like, the two and man, three-man actions. Like, he's been wide open so much. Damn it looked, but it has to be the most. There was a stat on the broadcast the other day where it was, like, percentage of their production was three-pointers,

and his was in the 70s. Yeah. Top and the league. It has to be the most open shots he's taken in his career. I'll have to look that up. It has to be. Tough living in Boston, man. This is just not that easy, man.

A lot of grenades. Let's talk about Kason Wallace. Let's do it. Your guy. Kaysen, I mean, I got to watch him last year and, you know, like, obviously closely. Context just is so interesting. Like, you know, like with Lively, it was interesting last year. He got, he was on a team that didn't have that kind of like playmaking fluidity.

And Kentucky last year was very similar, much to my dismay. And just, just a little bit of. lot of, you know, death inside last year, just watching. He is a secondary, a second side guy. He's a second sider. He is a guy who can make simple playmaking reads. He can hit open threes. He's been blistering. He can get to the rim and things like that. He was overburdened. So I think people just kind of started to nipick him. And, you know, with the thunder, it's the same thing as jet. He's just plugging right in. Like, he's within the flow of their offense. And the other thing is that, like, his defensive upside, here we go again, is great.

Like, he's switchable. He can guard the ball. He has great instincts. He's a great two-way player. It's incredible that they got him and Jalen Williams in similar ranges of the draft back-to-back years. And it was a surprise at the time. People were like, Kays and Wallace, really.

But like, he's just, he's applicable everywhere to me, in my opinion. This is where our podcast programming comes into direct conflict with my personal needs because I need someone to talk me down on Kays and Wallace. And Kyle, it's clearly not going to be you. Boss? He's great. Like, I regret to inform you all that Kaysen Wallace is now only a member of the 60-50-100 club. You know, so tough, tough, real drought for his percentages lately.

But, like, it's amazing how few mistakes he makes for a player who's in that spot. I think even a lot of guys who are second side guards in the NBA, there's a temptation to want to show what you can do in that role, to want to pop out of it in a way that's impressive. And he doesn't let the want to do something impressive get in the way of making the right place. What's crazy about him is I was watching their game against the Suns the other night and he didn't play in the first quarter, didn't play in the third quarter, but every time he was on the court, you knew it. Like, he just makes such an impact on both sides, but particularly on defense where he's such a gnat. Like, he pops off the page amidst this like sea of other young guys

on that team. Yeah. He blocked the Jamal Murray fade away in their game against Denver. That was like, oh, whoa. He's just positionally really has his wits about him at all times, you know, in spotups, but on offense, on spot up three-pointers right now, he's at 53.8 percent. And yeah, I mean, the sample's not gigantic. You want to talk about like, okay, we're reeling, we're like, you know, going crazy. We're trying to figure out where the boundaries are. That's what I always say in the fog of our excitement. I mean, what can he graduate to has been the question. I mean, like, where can it go from here? Is it, you know, I don't know where to put a limit on him because I do think if he, if he develops it, we've seen he can dribble, he's a dribble pull of shooter. We've seen he can get to the rim.

These are all these kind of elements that we were talking about, like, we're not sure about this or that guy. He kind of has fledgling signs of all those things. So it's, it's another. Well, here's the question. Like, where does he fit on that team? Exactly. Like, is he destined to come off the bench just because there's just so many people in front of them. Had a lot of conversations. I'm curious to get your all's opinion about this, because I've talked to a lot of OCCC people about this. I feel like if he's going to continue to be this kind of a thread,

it opens up because they're going to have money issues really soon as the issue, too. There's got to be, you know, I don't know if it's Dort or who it is. Does he create redundancy with Dort and, like, sort of upgrade over him offensively in some ways? Yeah, it's like, do you need a premium defensive player, who, you know, limits what you do spacing-wise if you can just get merely really good defensive player who's, you know, just way better spaceer. I mean, these are like philosophical questions.

Just for me, I've seen this guy freaking Stonewall James Hardin in his MVP candidate years, you know? Like, how do you just say, I don't need that? It's true. Or is it giddy? Is giddy the guy that's the odd man out? Ideally, you don't have to pick and choose between them that much until as you're saying, the money problems come up. Like, that's the forcing function here.

But in terms of what the Thunder have and what they need on the court, like Kays and Wallace can guard different kinds of players than Lou Dort does. And so I think there's room for them both right now. And maybe ideally in a future where Wallace continues to develop, he is a starter alongside Shea and those other guys. And you have some nice, like, variability between them. But that's the beauty of where the Thunder are right now. Their honesty is nothing but options.

Rob, do you want to take us through Kianti George, the experience here? I mean, mostly he's the kind of player who, when you watch him, there's nothing individually that he is doing that's all that impressive. But I just wasn't sure how much time he was going to get in Utah, given their like glut of a guard rotation right now. And he has more, he gives more juice to their offense than any of the other guys they have at that position. So I've been very impressed as far as like a rookie slotting into a team that has a very clear need for playmaking.

He gives them a little something. You like Keonti George is what you're saying? You like a little Kianti with your jazz? I'm just saying, anyway. With some Pappardell. Justin said Kianti. All right, do I need to say it? I'm just a distinguished gentleman.

You guys are all Philistines. A little Kianti with you jazz is, you know, you as a classy guy. I think he would like that. Absolutely. He's somebody who I like Kianti's. like shifting this with the ball. Like he clearly has some ability. He's going to be able to get to a shot pretty dependably at lower levels.

It's just is he going to be able to do that consistently enough for you to be like, okay, you can live. We trust you. Like he's also shown some moments like where he can, you know, his passing jobs have been like his creativity. I don't know. I like him as an on ball score. It's just like a question of whether he could be a primary one or one that you would

put next to another one. I lean that he's probably going to need to be put. I'm not so I'm not totally sold on the primary part of it yet He's starting right now next to Clarkson and Abaji while Kessler is out So we'll see on that one I feel like we have to check the box on a Sarr Thompson Just because of incredible he's been so he's he's technically 12th in the NBA in rebounds per game Just one spot below Jalen Duren who's their center I think he's the best offense of rebounder in the league right now

He is in total rebounds he's second to Nicola Yoke Yokic, Yokic has 137, Asar has 116, Rudy Gobert has 115, DeAndre Aten has 110. The three other guys are 611 or taller. Asar Thompson is 6.7. So, Kyle, were you expecting this level of energy and activity? Because it feels like we were sold that this guy was going to be the Swiss Army knife, the nail file, the corkscrew for the pistons, or has he exceeded your expectations so far? Exceeded.

I liked him. I leaned towards. I'm in because I kind of liked, I thought Amman had a little bit more like on ball juice in terms of like I thought he was going to be able to facilitate. Granted, the scoring issues for both of them are pretty similar. It's just you want to give twins their own, their identity. We were told that a lot by like psychologists, like treat them as individual people. It's just hard. And when twins grow up together, a lot of times they fall into the, from the function of just playing together everywhere, they fall into these roles.

They grow around each other. Yeah. It's hard to sort of like draw. draw the line between like, okay, like, how are they different? Is it true that Amman has this? Or is it just true that Amin always had the ball? And we only saw that from Amin. So anyway, but like with Asar, the defense,

he could be an all defensive player. He had a moment the other night. He's made my like eyes bug a few times this year where the clips, the clips that I use in our build, one of them is like he drove to his left side guarding Grayson Allen and Grayson Allen was sort of like run off of his path and he tried to shoot a floater over Asar and Asar almost high points it going to his left with his left hand. I was like, holy shit, what did I just see? And then there was another defensive play against the Thunder where he single-handedly disrupted their like flow. Like he made Shea. He's had some

incredible possessions against Shea. I would recommend people go check those out. I'm sure they're compiled by some Pistons fan on YouTube. But like, He makes Shea take this really awkward shot. He closes out to, I think it was like Jalen Williams. Jailen Williams was like, I'm not going to be able to get this shot off, drives, walls him up. Like, he just, he's a really, really versatile defender. I've been, he's, he honestly made, he's one of the most impressive defenders in this class, if not. You know, he's way, way up there, at least on the perimeter.

Yeah, he's seeing the game. That's the coolest thing. I've been tuning into a decent amount of pistons just because of Cade. I'm obviously super interested in what he's going to finally be able to do. this year. And I think it's been mostly positive on the Kade side, but just his ability to see it on both ends of the floor and understanding what the team, what the opposition is trying to do. And then, you know, when Draymond goes out of his way to give a guy props, it's because he's like, all right, this guy's seeing it the way I do. And his anticipate, like, when you combine an

anticipation for what's about to happen with next level athleticism, that's when you start getting into the, you know, the Kauai, the, and even Ron Artesse was not like next level athlete, but he was so physical with his defensive IQ and anticipation. You start adding the physical stuff to the mental, and that's when you get, you know, what Kyle is mentioning is as all-MBA level stuff. And on offense, look, you know, the guy can't make a shot. It's not going to be perfect, but it's still pretty exciting when, just with the stuff that he's already put on film.

I love all the way those things you laid out while is like contrast with Cade, right? Like those guys overlap on feel and instinct, but they, they totally diverge in how those things manifest. And it makes them just like a completely perfect pair. Yeah. We gushed about the Pistons early on, like probably second episode or something of this season. I'm glad we did because there hasn't been much good, but I do love kind of the foundation that they've kind of built with some of these guys.

Just the last guy I want to mention here, if only because I want to see the glimmer in in Kyle's eye here is one Jaime Hawkes, who, I have to say I was watching him the other night against the spurs. And the lack of like giving a shit this guy has is Jimmy Butler level. I could see what the heat saw on him because like outwardly he's ice cold and inside of his brain, you could just see him like putting various people into saw traps. Like the various traps. He's just like, he's just so fucking like ice in his veins.

He's sadistic. He's just sadistic out there. God, I love it. I was just waiting for you to take that turn. The state isn't part of it I hadn't considered. No, I mean, he, but now, I'll keep it in mind. No, I mean, he just, he's a seri-roll player. Rob and I were having a conversation the other night about like, you know, you see this happen again and again that like, well, we were talking. I think Halliburton was the framing for it, right? Where it's like, you know, how does Halliburton not go, you know, one, two, three? How does that not happen? What is it about the intangible? that are so weird. Why is it that it's, we have to see somebody in the flow of the action to suddenly have a ureca action? That's inverted. The jump shot was not cute.

That's it. But he had shot like almost 40% at every level. I've investigated this was. I know. I know. It just wasn't cute. No, it's true.

It's like his mechanics were odd. I think that was weird for people, but not trying to get into halber. But I just think it's inverted that we like, it says something about the way we look at players, I think, that like,

we have to like see them in the flow to like have our come to do no that's inverted we should watch guys play basketball Jesus Christ so like if you watch Jaime Hockes at UCLA he just was everything to them and it didn't always show up and I would be like well he's not like a combine guy he's not a guy like in workouts where you're going to be like he's somebody that just adds value in all these different places and I clipped a few of these things on my Instagram where I was just watching there was one sequence where there a lot of these. There's one sequence where Jay Navi tries to cross him, basically.

Heimani, like, shuttles with him, bodies up to him, rips him, throws a crazy, like, dime outlet pass to Tyler Hero. It gets blocked. Hockes crosses the half court line. They're resetting. He sees, oh, I have Joe Harris on me.

Sprints to the block. Sprints to the block. Poor Joe Harris is helpless, scores on him immediately and won. That's just an example. Like, he ripped LeBron the other night. He's just, he's a guy who just adds value all over the place. And I was texting, Bill.

I was like, are you ready for this guy to terrorize you for the next 10 years? Oh, God, yeah. Because he's, he's just going to be a nuisance in the East, man. He's a player. Culture. Can I say something about Miami real quick? Yes, please. Miami's leaned into it too hard with their branding.

It was cool. When we were talking about it, it was great, putting it on their court, putting it on the jerseys and stuff. Let us say that about you, Miami. you saying it makes it weirder. Like, I don't know. It's just weird. I don't know. Am I alone on that?

Is anybody else? No, it's extremely weird. They got it back and off. The jersey, the city edition jersey with the... Awful. Just smacking culture on the jersey was... Awful. Yeah. Was where I kind of got off.

Isaiah loves it. I mean, the court is so much worse, though. Like, there's going to be an overhead picture of somebody dunking all over Bam out of bio with that lane with the long description of the heat being the toughest most fierce team in the league. You're asking for it. You really are. But at the same time, they're just coming off of a finals with the players that they did. They've ruined all the goodwill.

But you can't say it. You can't be the one to say it. Rob, did you want to weigh on Hawkes? Just that, you know, I love the NBA, you know, it's filled with some of the most athletic players in the world, some of the smartest basketball players in the world. And Jaime Hawkes has come in and made a lot of them just look extremely dumb. Right. Just extremely dumb on a nightly basis.

The heat will just like put him on the midpost on some possession. and just have dudes run around. And it's amazing how much leverage you can get out of literally just doing that. All right, let's wrap it there. Kyle, thank you for joining us. It was my pleasure. I really can't emphasize that enough. We view you as the Capadonna of this podcast.

You're like the unofficial fourth member. I love that. Sick. I'm glad. Okay, so check out Kyle's rookie rankings, which I believe are going to go live on the ringer.com on Thursday. Check out Rob's Tyree's Halliburton feature. Rob, anything you want to say about that to tease it?

I mean, I think I said enough in the thing. Like, the word count is oppressive. So if you want to, if you want to long, leisurely read, I would encourage you to visit the ringer.com and read about Tyrese Halliburton. All right. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz also. We'll be back on Sunday.

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