The Ringer NBA Show - Early Season Assessments With Bill Simmons and Tom Haberstroh (Ep. 155)

Episode Date: November 3, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by recently departed ESPNer Tom Haberstroh to give his thoughts on the Cavs' lacking defense (18:00), potential Boogie Cousins trades (30:00), and re-drafting the 2017 NBA draft (42:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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on the ringer.com. This week, I wrote about Blake Bortles and the science of quarterback names. And it's really dopey. We also did a whole

Ringer MBA revelations piece in which I wrote about Ben Simmons. So you can find that in the ringer.com too. Coming up, Tom Haverstone

by old ESPN teammate. We taped this for the BS podcast. I wanted to have them on for 20 minutes. And we ended up going for almost 50. So we ran the last 20 minutes of that conversation on the BS podcast. But we're running the whole conversation right here on the Ringer NBA show and exclusive. We've never done this before.

I hope it works. But it just seemed like the right thing to do because we did not want to have a two-hour BS podcast. That would have been crazy. Nobody had been able to download it. Anyway, here we go. Tom Haverstrow. On the line, my old ESPN teammate, Tom Haverstrow, now of Bleacher Report. What's the name of your new podcast?

It's leverage the chat is the company, and the new podcast is the basketball friends, and we should have some new ones coming out pretty soon. But that one is the basketball friends is what I'm doing every day now. Every day. Yeah, I do it Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Amina Elhassen and Black Trey, Was, Mariano, they do Bomb Mondays, Black Opinions Matter Mondays, and then the rest of the week, our NBA pod is basketball friends. So try to switch it up every day to give a kind of different show every day.

But yeah, I'm pretty much on it four days a week. Did you have to like take some sort of detox shower? Like when people, when a nuclear reactor comes off, goes off and the people have to take the showers? Was that what was likely leaving Middle Connecticut or no? I mean, we had like a daily podcast. Yeah. They shut down twice. And when Jade Hoy left this summer, it kind of left this crater.

And my contract was up. And I hadn't been potting for like three months. Pretty much all summer. I hadn't done a daily pot. So totally weird stuff was going on. And ultimately, it's good to be back with Jade. And it's good to be writing magazine stories. I actually just dropped one five minutes ago on Twitter.

I read it. I read it right before I called. It was about LeBron and yoga and these little bubbles that I'm going to get for my daughter because I'm a psycho. So explain the yoga bubbles. They're crazy, man. This video I saw David Menman from ESPN. He posted on Instagram, like the NBA Instagram posted it. Just LeBron before games now stands on these clear pillows and does like little basketball tricks on them.

and it kind of, it's very bizarre. It's really weird, and it's the most viral video that the cabs have put out this year. Obviously not much good content coming out of Cleveland right now. Yeah. But, like, it's mesmerizing. And so I kind of called up a bunch of people in the industry to get the backstory. And I guess, you know, Rudy Gobert, like, going from kind of this, like, baby giraffe in the NBA to what he is now. a lot of it is just this core workouts that he does with Fabrice Gapierre in L.A.

And he works on these pillows, and they just really sharpen your core. They activate your central nervous system. And it's kind of all these pregame warmups that you see from Steph Curry. It's all in the name of like firing up your central nervous system and working on your balance. And so LeBron started doing it after he hurt his ankle with this longtime trainer, Mike Manzias. and it's just kind of like alien-like and it's super interesting. So yesterday I spent like 12 hours writing a football calm, just sitting in a chair,

and occasionally I got up and peed, and I think I made a salad. Probably not the same. Well, now, like, when you sit down, are you on a couch or are you in a chair? Like, when you write, what are you doing? I try to move around. That's the one thing I've learned as I've gotten older.

Because my back went out like 13, 14 years ago. I'm a big believer in the core thing. Of course, I haven't been, my workout regimen has not been reflecting this, but it is like a lot of what can happen to your body is a lot of bad habits. It's been really interesting reading, you know, how Steph Curry transformed his body and his career because I've made this case before. There are these guys from the 19, like if Steph Curry came into the league in 1963 and we didn't know any of this stuff, he would have had problems with his ankles and he probably would have had a six-year career and he would have been out of the league. and now he can totally transform his body and fix every possible thing that's wrong with him. And he's turned into one of the most durable guys we have. It's inconceivable even as recently as 10 years ago.

I don't think it's possible, right? So I was during the finals a couple of years ago. And, you know, this is kind of like my M.O. when I'm researching a story is like everyone who was asking Steph Curry, hey, how'd you like fix your ankles and all this stuff? And he gives a very like boilerplate answer. But K.K. Liles, who is their like strength guy at the time for the Golden State Warriors in like 2015, he was like, yeah, we just had to work on his hips. That's it.

Like working on your hips and strengthening your core so that you don't have to rely on your ankles. And all the torque was going to his ankles. And that's why it was just he couldn't get any strength because he was pushing off and building torque. off a flat tire, right? So what they did, they strengthen his hips, work his core, and suddenly he's not pushing off his ankle and using all of his

energy and force going through that, like, really weak joint. And now he's so much quicker, faster, stronger, more confident, and he hasn't a knock on wood, had any ankle issues. And that's why I get into that I get really geeky about these stories, because you wonder how a dude

like Rudy Gobert turns into the defensive player of the year candidate, right? You wonder how Kauai Leonard can go from like a power forward to a dude who can like move so well and be a point guard out there and picking rolls. A lot of it has to do with just these guys are working on their bodies in ways that Bob Coosie or Bill Russell or, you know, Reggie Miller. They just didn't know any of this stuff. Well, you think about Greg Oden 10 years ago, right? 2007, his feet, his legs were different sizes. I think his left leg was like an inch and a half longer.

and his whole body was out of alignment for his whole career. And they never really fixed it, adjusted it, did whatever they had to do. And his body was like a building that just basically caved and crumbled. And I think if he comes in right now, if he's a rookie on the Trailblazers in 2017, I think the way they approach him is totally different. Even like when you read the Tom Brady stuff about what he's done, because Tom Brady is faster than he was 10 years ago, which is inconceivable.

and normally we would just say, well, he's taking PEDs and be done with it. But then you read the stories about what he did. And he basically retrained the lower half of his body how to move. His body was, for whatever reason, when he ran, his body was almost like running in sections. And they did all these exercises and retrained his brain to send these signals that when the upper half of your body is doing this, the lower half of your body is also going to do this. And it makes sense because if you watch them scrambling, he's much more fluid. Ten years ago, it was like every time he scrambled, you were terrified.

He'd be like, oh, my God, oh, no, oh, God. And it would just be his body was going in nine different directions. And now he's pretty smooth. And I just, I totally believe in this stuff. And I know it's something you're passionate about, too. Yeah, but like, can I come at you real quick about this TB12 method? Please. How does thinking about elasticity prevent concussion?

Like I read that part of this story How does that make any sense? Maybe he's on like a different wavelength than all of us but like Man that seems like some snake oil salesman right there Well and that that's the Tom Cruise part of the Brady thing I didn't love that piece I even tweeted about it that ESP magazine piece

Because I just thought There was a there was kind of a Lance Armstrong Barry Bonsie feel to it That I didn't understand why it was there because it's clear that, you know, he's really passionate about the way he's, he's kind of redone every conceivable part of his career and how he thinks about stuff and all that thing. Like, the part about concussions is weird, and I'm not going to defend that. I think it's insane to say that if you live your life a certain way, you're going to be

less susceptible to concussions. But I do think, I think it would make sense that he's slightly, he's slightly more equipped to, I guess recover. And the fact that he's a 40-year-old guy who takes a pounding every week and it doesn't really seem to phase him means that there's got to be some real substance to some of this stuff. Like even like when people are taking PEDs in the 1990s, early 2000s, like they were breaking down.

They were having injuries. Like they were putting too much muscle on their bodies and things were happening and ligaments were snapping and, you know, even somebody like bonds, whatever the hell he was doing. It's not like he was in the lineup week after week after week for nine straight years. Whatever that people are doing now, I think, is the durability and recovery are the two things everybody's looking for. LeBron, another example. LeBron is just, you know, he keeps getting stronger.

And I think he's another one who believes in this stuff, which goes back to your yoga thing. Yeah, and very front end of, like, cryotherapy chambers and, like, freezing your, have you done one? Have you done one of those, by the way? No, I've always wanted to. I might, I want to play in the Drew League next summer, so I'm going to get back in shape. Wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on. Oh, yeah, I just announced that right now. Yeah, I want to play in the Drew League with my ringer dudes next summer.

And when 2018 rolls around, I'm getting in shape. I'm doing everything. I'm doing all the PEDs. I'm doing all the cryotherapy, the yoga. You name it. I'm going to do all of it. Well, that's the thing, like, you need to because when guys that you saw and worshipping, you've written about this in your book and just, you know, in your columns, when you watch

guys walk up the stairs that played in the 80s, 90s, when I came at these games, and it's depressing. It's really hard to watch. And I know they're going to say the same thing with, like, former NFL players where they're like, I would do it all over again if I had the choice. I would definitely go through the grind, even though I'm dealing with all these concussion symptoms and my body's wrecked. I'd do it all over in a heartbeat because it gave me my family, gave me my, you know, my livelihood, all this stuff. But you watch like Charles Barkley or Kevin McHale, I was, you know, Rick Mahorn or just you name it.

Ewing. It's hard to watch some time. Ewing, another one where it's hard to watch some times. And I don't know if they're being disingenuous when they say like these guys are soft today. But you know these NBA players are looking at all these players and saying, I want to make sure that when my kids growing up, I can throw a baseball with them or pick them up out of the crib or what have you because this is scary. I do think as simple as it sounds, the equipment that those guys had back then was so primitive. I mean, have you ever seen like converses from the 1960s, which everyone played in at the time? Like the lack of support in those shoes, like it would basically be, it basically

would be like playing in tennis sneakers or something. And you're playing, I think they moved to 82 games in the late 60s, but even before that they're playing like 72 games, 75 games, and, you know, they're flying coach. They're eating every sort of wrong food you can eat. Some of the guys are smoking. They're drinking soda. And then they're going on the court. They have no trainer.

they basically like for the Celtics for years and years red our back was also the trainer and the one who taped the ankles and stuff like that and then they're wearing these shitty shoes and they don't have nobody has lifts like it's it's amazing you watch somebody like eulgin baler who had a million knee surgeries and that dude can barely walk and it's amazing that they all aren't like that you know yeah and to say the game was better back then and um like you know defenses were tougher back in the 80s and 90s but like no that's not true You put Janus in, we were talking about this yesterday on the pod, you put Janus in 1965 or 1985 and they wouldn't know what to do. No, it's, it's, I think it really, when I wrote my book in 2009, you could still compare the eras in a realistic way, you know, I really felt like when I wrote that book, I genuinely felt like the 86 Celtics were still the best team of all time, that they had the most weapons and they're just the size they had and the offensive skill and the depth like there was just nobody that was going to beat them.

But now you've watched how basketball has evolved over the last eight years. And especially with the shooting and the math and the durability of these guys and the athleticism and the way they run out on shooters and just the spacing. And I think like if you just put the 2017 Warriors in a time machine had them play the 86 Celtics, I don't think the 86 Celtics would know what the hell was going on. They're like, oh, my God, this team's shooting 383s. What's happening? They would think like aliens had landed.

And somebody like Janus just, you know, we had unicorns back in the 80s, but you have multiple guys now who basically are doing the same stuff that Magic did. We're grabbing the rebound going coast to coast with length. Yeah, I agree with you. It's... Look, Ricky Rubio, Phil, Ricky Rubio is taking transition three now. Yeah. I think it's crazy. The game is so much faster and quicker and just pulling up from range. Like everybody's doing, I mean, Timothy Mosgov is shooting threes now. I saw on White Side is taking three now. You have to guard 30 feet. If you're 7 feet tall, you have to move 30 feet beyond the hoop now.

Whereas, you know, in generations past, they're just hanging around by the basket. And that kind of torque on your body, where you're jumping, sliding, sprinting, stopping, turning. all around the court that the entire half court, it's just a different game. Yeah, defensively, you could argue that it was more physical in the 90s. But yet, if you go and watch the games from the 80s and 90s, like the defense in the regular season wasn't there. And the playoffs, they would ratchet it up. But it was a lot more like banging and shoving and, you know, elbowing and putting your feet, playing your feet and pushing in the guys, stuff like that.

I think the way people play defense now, um, with all the running out on open shooters, which is just constant. It's constant wind sprints and running here and running there and running this way and jumping that way. And I think it's much more grueling. And it really makes me wonder if they should knock down the number of games in the regular season. I think 82 is too many. We've been saying this for years, but I really think like when you watch how hard these dudes play, like Lakers Portland last night, it was like game nine in the season.

those guys were playing like it was game seven of the finals. They didn't play that hard in the regular season in 1985. They really have to start accounting for this, I think. Well, Bill, I wrote this column like last year, two years ago maybe, but the end of the 82 game seasons are already here. It's already here. It's just coaches are taking guys games off, even though they're quote-unquote healthy

because they all know that 82 is ridiculous. So the end of the 82 game season is already here, and I applaud the NBA for, giving more rest ahead of these marquee games. This is not only going to make the games better, but it's also going to allow stars to play. But you're still going to see guys kicking games off. And I think there's going to be a tipping point here.

At some point, I don't know, where advertisers and just the money and the sport, the people who are the real power brokers, are going to see that they can't hold up for an 82-game season. And if we have a 66-game season or a 76-game season, And not only are they going to be fresher, but the games are going to matter more. And you're going to want to watch every game because it matters. Like right now we're making all these storylines about, look at Ricky Rubio, there's 76 more games in the season.

Right. Janus is the MVP. We have five and a half months left. It's crazy. I'm with you. I think the reason that it can and should have happened and that I mean, first of all, we arrived at 82 for no real reason whatsoever. I did research. I did a mailbag last year where I did all the research trying to figure out how we actually

ended up at 82. There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's just they added a couple teams and somehow settled on this arbitrary number that probably made sense because of the way it split up with the conferences. But then they added way more teams after that and stayed at 82. And I think the difference with, you know, this and a sport like football where there are yardage things that matter, like 2,000 yards or whatever, and baseball where you got 60 homers and 20 wins and things like that.

In basketball, it's averages. Nobody's like, oh, remember Kobe's 2,500-point season? Like, you don't think like that. You just think of the averages only. And it's really easy to move backwards. The only thing we would really lose is the wins, the regular season wins of the 73 and 9 and stuff like that. But in my opinion, I think that's a worthy sacrifice.

I think it's fine. We could just switch to winning percentage. It would be the same thing. yeah and like even now there is an asterisk on this 73 and 9 season right like people like oh who cares if they went 73 and 9 if they lost the title so this this like sacred there aren't any sacred numbers in basketball there's the hundred point game um but like in terms of season long stuff we had we saw the triple double russell westwork it's been done i don't know if there is a sacred number like the number of home runs in baseball there's not or there's not and what the NBA i think needs to understand is people who do care about that shit, they're not young. They're not the group that you need to be catering to. So like if old heads or old basketball heads are like upset about, you know, cutting the game down 20 games and well, let's do to the records and like, that's not fair. We had to play 82. Well, I don't think your 15 year old kid cares. The 15 year

old kid is the guy you need to care about because that's the future of the sport. The indefensible thing is they should be at 76 already. There's no reason that to. It actually fits better with the amount of teams they have the two times versus the conference three times in your own conference and you're good to go. And it's either 75 or 76. I can't remember the number. But let's go through some storylines really quickly. Do you believe the Cavs defense is broken?

Yes. I did too. Yeah. These teams, when they go through three finals, I watch it with the Miami Heat in 2014, it's really, really hard to get that motivation. It's not only physically exhausted from, dude, LeBron James has played 2,400 minutes in the postseason in the last three years. The last three seasons, he's played an additional regular season, 2,400 minutes on top of his regular season. But wait a second.

If you throw in the seven Miami years, isn't it like over two additional seasons with those post seasons? It is, right? Oh, yeah. Three years. Like this is the workload that he's having to do and look around LeBron right now. Like it's Kevin Love and Jeff Green and Jay Crout. Like I don't know where they're going to get the motivation because you need to have that carrot in front of you to go balls to the wall every night and play NBA caliber defense because the league is too young. It's too fast.

If you're not running back in transition, you're toast. Look, the NBA right now, the Brooklyn Nets, I just looked this up, the Brooklyn Nets are at. averaging 105.9 possessions for 48 minutes, according to basketball wrestling. 106, let's call it. 106, let's call it. The 2005 suns, the seven seconds or less suns, they never got to 107 in the entire season. They got over 106 once.

And in the other 81 games, they didn't match the Brooklyn Nets average pace this year. and it's you know kevin arna that's had a similar tweet where comparing the pace of how quickly it's gotten so fast um like lebron james and the rest of the cabs they can't just lolly gag they can't sleepwalk through games anymore because it's just that that that much faster of an NBA yeah i think i think it's a little hard for people who have been watching the NBA forever to even fully understand but i'm looking at the stats right now he used to do so Houston shooting 45-3s a game, which is like I, it's just, it makes my eyeballs bleed. But you're talking about- I was at the Charlotte game.

Yeah. I was at the Charlotte game. They took 28-two-pointers, the entire game. And they're not even shooting that well. They're shooting 31% from three, but they don't care. But half the league is shooting at least 29 threes, which I think maybe five years ago, that number might have been five or six. And when you're a team like Cleveland and you're taking possessions off and you're taking quarters off and the other team is just getting wide open threes, you know, that leads to the 38 point quarters and stuff like that. I look at them and I always try not to panic first month of the season or make some sort of go full hot take on whatever.

I just watch that team and the majority of guys in their rotation seem like they're in the wrong situation. And I don't know how you fix that, right? Like, I don't think this is the right team. Yeah, I don't think this is the right team or situation for Kevin Love at this point of his career playing kind of like, I guess, center. That's not good for him. He should be next to a shot walker. This isn't the right team for Jay Crowder, who I think was completely overrated anyway. I tried to tell everyone all summer.

This isn't the right team for Dwayne Wade. This isn't great for J.R. Smith, who's used to starting. All of a sudden he's coming off the bench. He pouts through the first three weeks of the season. it's terrible for Tristan Thompson This is Derek Rose as a guy who doesn't have the ball on his hands As a spot-up shooter, that doesn't make sense And then you go on that from a defensive standpoint

They have so many below average defensive players I was we were talking about the ringer office Just try to make your best lineup or your best five calves I'm not even sure what that lineup is what is the lineup And LeBron has to like convince himself Because I think he's gone after this. He has to convince himself, like, I'm going to put my body through the grinder for this squad. Like, my whole legacy is either rings or MVP at this point, right?

Yeah. And he's got to do this for the entire season. He's looking around his shoulder and he's like, they're dropping my flies. Tristan Thompson, man, he had nothing left. He was completely gas coming into the season. He went through like games. We had zero rebound. A lot of people are saying it's a Kardashian case.

I have no idea. That's it. I think it's just, dude, the guy played 82 games for five three seasons and then did the three finals trips. Right. There's only so much an energy guy can take when you're basically the only big man, like the only center on the roster for three finals trips. It's grueling. I mean, you look at, let me read you the last six opponents for the cabs. Orlando, Chicago, Brooklyn, New Orleans, the Knicks, and Indiana.

Right. The last six games, 117 points allowed on average. Not even good teams. Not even good teams. Orlando, Chicago, Brooklyn, New Orleans, New York, and Indiana. And you know what? If Hayward doesn't go down in the first five minutes of that Celtics game, I think the Celtics would have put up like 128 on them.

And, you know, we wrote about revelations on the ringer today. We just like different staff members talking about their. revelations of the season so far, things they're the most shocked by. I wrote about Ben Simmons because he's actually better than I thought he was going to be. But if my backup choice actually would have been Kyrie Irving, who I was a big believer in. And even before it came out that the Celtics had a chance to trade for him, I was just in disbelief that teams weren't trying to go after him because I thought, I just thought he was one of the nine most important players in the league and somebody who had been in the

biggest possible tests and come through. What I didn't fully know and what I was hoping was that away from LeBron with a really good coach, with different kinds of teammates, with a team that challenged him and used him in a different way and pushed him to be more of a playmaker and ran like little off-screen action for him and all these different things that they did for Isaiah Thomas. I was hoping that Kyrie would succeed in a situation. like that, but it's been eye-opening. I can't tell you how many times I've texted my dad and just been like, holy shit.

Like, Kyrie's amazing. He's really good. And I think over everything else, that's what really hurts the Cavs this year because they took off a spectacular player on their team for this Brooklyn lottery pick that might not even be top five. And for Isaiah, who might not come back

until February or March. I think that trades a disaster. Thomas does nothing for their issues. No. Like, I recognize that LeBron can't score every time down the floor, and he needs help offensively, but their issues are 1,000 percent on the defensive end. And Isaiah Thomas is not going to help them there. So, you know, the Kyrie thing is funny because I wrote this story that Damien Lillard

clapped back at me for this summer when I said, Kyrie Irving is more Dame than he is Kobe. And Dame Lurie got really upset about it, tweeted at me, said, check my set. And it was a whole thing. But the basis was that Kyrie Irving is 4 and 13 without LeBron James starting next to him with the cats. Right? So in the last like few years when LeBron was there. Yeah, I read your story. I disagreed with you.

I got testy when I read it. And you didn't call me. No, I just say it was in my office. I got testy. No, I think it's really hard to play without LeBron James when you're playing with him and he's doing everything. And I don't know if there's a stat that can really account for that. It's like, you know, if you're living at home and your mom cooks for you every night and all she does is cook, cook, cook. And then on Wednesday night, she says, I'm not going to be home.

You've got to fend for yourself. What are the odds you going to make a great dinner? I just don't think, I think you have to get into the mindset of being able to do your own thing, you know? Does that make sense or am I overthinking it? We're overthinking it in the first couple games of the season because I was this close to doing, one of those victory laps heat checks where I was like, Kyrie Irving, 4 and 15 without LeBron. Nah.

I'm so glad I did it. Well, you know what happened, and this is legitimate. He was really, really upset about the Hayward thing. Because, for two reasons. One, because I really think the Celtics team thought they had a chance to make the finals. I think they had a great preseason. I think the length that they had, the weapons they had, Kyrie had never played with a good coach before,

which seems funny because he won a final. But I think it was just eye-opening for him, just everything that was going on. And he was really fired up for the season. He threw the alley-oop to Hayward. And it was behind him. And it was one of the reasons Hayward fell awkwardly. The other reason was Jake Crowder kind of shoved him. But I think that affected him that first game.

And I think it really affected him the second game. I think it took him a couple games to play out of it. Man, if you watch them these last couple, I'm waiting for him to have like a 55-point game. And it doesn't seem, he might be wired like Durant. He might not want it. Like I remember I asked Durant in, we did that mailback podcast about, you know, somebody asked, could you ever score 70 points or what's the hottest you ever been? And he's basically like, I would never score 70.

I'm not wired like that. I'm always going to try to make the right play. I don't want to go for 70. And I do, it does seem like Kyria is kind of wired like that this season. He's always trying to make the right play. And they've really worked hard with him on making that. driving kick pass to the corners, which he wasn't good at in Cleveland. No.

And he's getting better and better at it in Boston. They are really, they're dangerous. Like, I know they lost Hayward, but I'm really starting to think they could make the finals anyway. Look at his 17, 21, 20, 24, 24, 24, 22. It's like he's got a governor, right? It's like he's got a cheat code that he can't score over 25 points, which I'm with you that it seems like he could go off for 50 at any point. but I think Brad Stevens' system, I just think he preaches ball movement and egalitarian stuff. But you can't tell me that a guy who worships Kobe Bryant and the COVMA mentality feels like he shouldn't go for 50s.

Yeah, you know, I really, I've watched a lot of the Celtics this year. I really felt that way too. And I've been so impressed by how often he makes the right play. I actually think he values that. And there were stretches during Kobe's career when he's. he played like that too, and then he would snap out of it and take 35 shots. So maybe that's coming. But, you know, I think the revelations on the Celtics team are they're just so much better

defensively than they were last year, which doesn't totally make sense because Avery Bradley is considered to be such a good on the ball defender, but Crowder was overrated. I think that's being borne out now. The analytics did not agree with it. It's like no one, no one was more in disagreement about their defensive. reputation than Avery Bradley and the analytics. Like the numbers on Avery Bradley, on-off port, whatever metrics you want to look at, Avery Bradley is like, it just didn't make sense why, to the I, it seems like he's a great

defender, but none of the metrics really back that up. And now you're seeing Boston thriving defensively without. Yeah, it's totally different. But there was evidence to suggest that maybe it was smoking mirrors with Avery Brow. Yeah, and I think, I don't know how I feel about that, because the I test does. does make me think he's a good defender, but on the other hand, the big difference with this team is now they have length. And Hayward would have played into that too, because I think one of the reasons they really wanted Tatum was they wanted these just multiple long dudes

and the ability to switch and to always have six-foot-eight guys running out on shooters, basically, which is what they have. And they have Roger, who's probably the shortest guy they're playing other than Kyrie, but he plays like he's six-seven, smart, who is a really good, defender when he wants to be. And then all these Jalen Brown, Tatum types and semi, who's been kind of a revelation as a second round pick. And then they have Baines and Tees who are just better than Amir Johnson and Kelly Olinic and guys like that, guys who actually get rebounds.

So the team makes sense. It's going to be really interesting to see when Hayward comes back. I think the team is being, and for the right reasons, really quiet about that. but I don't think it's inconceivable. He comes back in April or May. I think the fact that they haven't come out and said this guy is not coming back, cross him off for this season is pretty interesting.

And you know, it's a long season. It's going to go through it's going until the end of June. And if there is a scenario where you could come back, great. If not, I still think this team's pretty good anyway. And we know the East isn't good. I mean, we were talking to the office, who the hell is going to win the East?

You would say like, oh, Washington. And you watch Washington, and it's like they have literally no bench whatsoever. John Wall is a little too. I like John Wall, but I don't know if he's your go-to guy in a finals team. Milwaukee does not have the supporting cast or the coach. Toronto, maybe? I don't know. Who do you think?

I think it's going to be Washington. I think they'll work out some stuff, work through some stuff. And I think they could potentially go for like a boogie trade at the deadline. Yeah. Wow. And so I like their upside. And I just like the continuity that they have where the Boston Celtics, that's where they've most impressed me is that they have the number one defense right now, Bill,

in the NBA, where two guys were basically rookies. When we get on the Timberwolves for being a garbage defensive team under Tibado, the reflective thing is, oh, it's a young team you're relying on young guys. But we don't hear that about the Boston Celtics. Right. They have a new team, almost entire roster's turned over. They don't have Avery Bradley, they don't have Jay Crowder. So far that the number one defense will see if that continues.

But it's so impressive their start this season with all the moving parts and the trauma with Gordon Hayward. Well, I think it's a 100% chance now that they lose to Oklahoma City tonight after all the praise that we've showered on the Celtics. Any other teams that have surprised you? I'm not like Minnesota's defense is really really disarming to me it's really I wrote about Tom Fibito and his and his burnout factor my last story for ESPN and I expected them to be better this year defensive because of Jimmy Bellard he's been out in and out of the lineup but I'm really surprised that people are still picking Carl Towns as the generational talent of this NBA like the young stud and it's two years running I think the NBA

GMs picked him as a guy they want to build a franchise around. But their defensive garbage. And at some point, it's going to come back to Carl Towns where it's like, all right, man, you've got to bring it defensively because we've seen Mb be out of the league for two years, bring it defensively. And we've seen even Porzingis, like, there's actually defensive evidence there that they can do it. I don't know if, I don't know if Tibido, if he can't get Carl Towns and Andrew Wiggins to play defense, I don't know who will.

One thing that's, the reason I don't think anybody can say, who's going to win the East is I still think there's going to be a couple of monster trades. And Minnesota is a team that could be involved in one of them. But I think when you look at the East, Milwaukee definitely has a trade to make. I think the Celtics are positioned now because getting this $8.4 million injury exception from Hayward, I would expect them over the next 10 days to just sign some random dude for $8.4 million. I mean, it could be like freaking Ty Lawson.

Doesn't matter. Sorry, Tate. Just sign somebody who's a cap figure. And you get that guy for $8.4 million. Now you can stack a couple more salaries. Now you can go get, you know, I don't know if I'd want Eric Bledsoe, but somebody in that price range. I think Orlando is a team that could make trades.

Milwaukee has a bunch of different ways that they can make moves. You go on down the line, it just feels like out of all the years, after all the trades we've had, there's still going to be a couple trades that could kind of shape where we're going. And I think San Antonio could be a contender for that too. Who do you think is the most likely person to get traded? Boogie? Seeing his numbers.

I mean, he's an MVP candidate. He looks miserable and his teammates look miserable playing with him, but he's putting up giant numbers. Listen, 30 points, 13 rebounds, 5.9 assist, 2.3 blocks, 2.1 fields, and 2.83 for game. Wow. And the threes are going in. That's the shocking thing.

I can't believe these big dudes are shooting threes. I remember... It's crazy. In the early 90s, I remember Mikhail because he was getting old, just occasionally would throw up a three, and it was always like the craziest thing that happened in the game. Like, oh, my God, Michael made a three. And now he would probably take seven.

You know? I don't even know what his style would be now. I remember watching boogie early in his NBA career, and he'd run like a coast to coast. And it was shocking to me because at Kentucky, I didn't see that. And then I was like, well, this guy has some like weird big point center skills. And then now he's showing it. Like if I told you a guy in the NBA is averaging 30 points, 5.9 assist and 7.63 attempts.

Like you're thinking, oh, maybe that's like Clay Thompson, maybe that's a two guard. That's Boogie Cousins right now. And the league is so, like they've got these giant. and it's tough because Janice is in a small market. Boogie Cousins is in a small market. You know, I know Embed's in Philly, and he's a superstar, but I feel like, you know, that these guys are not being in small markets. I don't know if people can appreciate what kind of skills we're seeing out of these big men.

These seven-footers are freakishly talented, and I think Boogie playing next to Anthony Davis without any wing players, There's no distributors. Drew Holiday wants to play the two. He doesn't want to play the point card. That's the team that's going to have to make a deal. God, that Drew Holiday contract was dumb. It's really, there are teams that have just,

and this has been something that's been going out for most of the 21st century, these teams that have just done a complete disservice to their superstar. I think LeBron is the greatest example of just all the moves the Cavs tried to make, to try to make, do a win now type situation. And New Orleans did the exact same thing with Anthony Davis. Just, hey, we got this guy. Hey, we overpaid this guy. And it's like, well, you're on a treadmill.

You're not doing anything. You're not building anything. And now they have these two guys. And everybody around them is completely inferior to them. As a Celtics fan, I am terrified of the Boogie Wizard's trade. It just feels like it's going to happen. Yeah, it just feels like it's going to happen. I don't know what the trade is.

I don't know if it's auto porter. I don't know if it's Gortat and Ubre and five first rounders. I don't know what the fuck's going to happen, but it just feels like boogie, wall, and Beal are going to be in the same team. That's my fear. And if you're Washington, you've got to make the deal, right? Because this is the vulnerable East. Like, if you're looking at a time to strike, it's right now.

You got to do it. You put multiple firsts on the table. You've got to get it. You got to get them. You got to pay full price. You do. And like other teams just don't have. the young player to throw in the deal and just, you know, ready player, like a young auto,

like a auto porter where you have Kelly Ubrae, who's a wing player that can kind of fill in the gap there. Yeah. I think it's a right time for a trade. And it's going to be sad because, like, Boogie and Anthony Davis, Kevin Pelton and I, we did like an analysis this summer. And what are the type of team that give the Warriors issues? That's it.

That's it. That's it. Right. crashed the boards and just have guys just bludging you in the paint because they're not a great rebounding team and they got they got still right and they just don't have a roster they don't have an NBA roster and I think that's the issue when we talk about the medical issues of teams like new Orleans pelicans are right at the top of the list where they just they're you know the quincy pond extra thing is really really shady and then the fact that like anthony davis is out every other

game yeah I think that matters not only is it a small market in new orleans but you also have like guys whose careers just seem to go sideways because they can't stay healthy. And I think that matters for free agents. They're not going to play with Boogie and Anthony Davis because I think there's just too many question marks with the front office. Who would you rather have treat you with some sort of injury? New Orleans's medical staff or Philly's medical staff? You know, I know David Martin over with the Philadelphia 76ers. He was a cycling guru who helped Joelle and B rehab. He sent him to Qatar and he's kind of an out-of-box thinker. I just think there's too many cooks in the kitchen.

There's so many medical guys in that front office. They just hired a new guy this summer to oversee the whole medical staff. And I, like the Joliel Oklifer thing, no one talks about. But he had a torn meniscus, I believe, and he was supposed to be out for six weeks, and it turned out to be six months. How does that happen? How about the Ben Simmons' foot? All the Embed injuries?

I mean, that, that, we, Rashad Holmes had something? God. It's ridiculous. Last question. biggest mystery in the NBA right now. Markell Fultz, how does that happen? It's actually legitimately a mystery. That's what it is.

Ken Berger wrote about it today. It's a mystery. That intro I've never heard of before. It almost sounds like a dead arm in baseball. Like he just shot so many shots. His arm got tired like he was Tim Robbins and filming Bull Durham or something. I've never heard of it. I mean, listen, I don't know for a fact, but I would,

If I had to bet on a Marco Fault's condition, I would say he is the Yips. Just, that's it. You can throw any of the, oh, they did this, he did that. I think the moment got too big for him would be my guess. But isn't the Woj agent story confusing too when the agent comes out and says he had fluid drain from his shoulder and then Woj has to put out another report that actually that's not true? Like, that seems pretty conflicting.

Although, if it is the YIS, that would be the cover up, right? is making that physical problem to explain it. That's my point. Last, last, last question. Then we're going to go. You're redrafting the draft. Who's your top three? Reader?

Yeah, the one we just had. So like the 2017 draft? Yeah, who's your top three? Oh, that's that. Is Jason Tatum number one? I think he is. I wanted you to say it, though. I think I know you too well.

Jason Tatum looks. awesome and we didn't even talk about when we got on the Celtics but he's a teenager yeah and he's he's 19 i was there for paul pierce's rookie season and he was two years older than tatum and was not as polished and tatum can just get to 12 to 15 points every game by being on the floor which is really hard as a rookie it's hard to not disappear game after game as a rookie and he doesn't i go uh jason tatum i go i go jason tatoom i go i go jason tatoom denis Smith Jr. and then Lonto ball. That's how I go. Wow. Okay. That's interesting. I don't know what to make Alonzo. I've never seen a point guard who wants to have the ball for less time than Lanzo does.

He has, he's hot potato. Yeah. He's overwhelmed right now, like shooting-wise. He's shooting under 30%. And last night he played like a full game and didn't score. I just, I think mentally, like he's overwhelmed right now, being in L.A. I think he's going to get it. I think he's got the package, the skills. Right now, I think

the scoring isn't there, but I just think he's, I think he can't miss prospect. And I think eight games into his career in L.A. with L.A. with L.V.R. doing what he's doing. I think he's got a tough, tough start. And he's not 100% healthy. I don't think people realize that either. He was coming into the season, not

healthy. So I think this is, I think, he's still a top stud in the league and we shouldn't write him off after eight games. I agree with you. Here's my only question. Are we sure he can shoot and dribble? Are we sure? Are we sure he can shoot and dribble? Is that really that important in the NBA though?

Is that really that important? I'm not sure he can shoot. I'm not positive he can dribble. He can dribble when nobody's around him, but like he does not have a handle like Kyrie Irving or Damien Lillard or people like that. He just doesn't. it's yeah it's when he gets pressured i'm amazed how quickly he just gives up the ball i mean yeah but how much is that is just he's a teenage i know we just talked about jason tann

didn't in college though but like but he was he did this in college too that was my one fear with him i didn't understand when fox pressured him in those two games why he just got rid of the ball i really like uh i like marketing which i hate myself for making fun of that pick but i actually like his game. I like Jonathan Isaac. I think he's going to be something. I don't know what, but he's definitely something. My buddy on the pod calls

his name is Mariano. He calls Mark and in Lori Bird. Call him Lori Bird. You don't like the finisher? Two ends? I'll tell you who else I like. Get ready, Knicks fans. Kind of like Frankie Smokes.

I think he's devastating defender. I wasn't expecting that. Frankie Smokes really gets in your face makes you do some stuff you don't want to do. I like him. I like the way it cares himself. I like that out of a rookie in that environment. Like he might think Big Lights, New York, MSG,

like I want to impress someone offensively and score and make a big splash. Nah, he's just going to grind you defensively. I love it. I also, I think that if Donovan Mitchell was on the Lakers right now, playing under the name Lanzo ball, Laker fans would be like ejaculating on each other. They'd be losing their minds. Donovan Mitchell's been incredible.

I was agreeing with you until you just said it jackals. Yeah, well, it's late in the podcast. We just had to throw that in there. But he's been stupendous. And you could make a case he's the second best player in the draft if you just go by numbers and tape. Or he's certainly the most ready right now to contribute to a good NBA team. Anyway, Havistrow, how do we say?

Subscribe to your pod. Basketball friends. And Bleacher Report, BR MAG, story up on LeBron and his moon shoes right now. Go check it up. We almost work together. At some point in life, we'll work together, Habistro. We're working together right now, man. Yeah, that's true.

I mean, like, you know, in a more significant way, maybe down the road someday. I love when all the ex-ESPN people are doing well. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Bill. All right.