The Ringer NBA Show - Early Season Overreactions and Panic Watch | Real Ones

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

Logan, Raja, and Howard are back to discuss the Lakers' 1-2 start and what level of concern the team should have since it's led by an aging LeBron James (02:00). Then, the guys react to the Hawks beating the Bucks at home (32:00). Later, Raja and Howard Beck share some of their players-only meeting stories (41:20). Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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What's popping? Logan Murdoch here, Raja Bell there. Howard Beck over there. Motherfucking Mondays. How you doing, Howard? I'm doing good. I'm great. Things are wonderful here. Brooklyn, I ran into one of Raja's old teammates from way, way back last week. And I tried to get dirt. But Jose Calderon would not sell you out, Raja. Wow. Jose Calderon. He was actually really helpful, bro. I've said this before. I was in Spain. I didn't know. know anyone didn't speak the language was kind of like pissed and Jose and Luis Scola and Andre's Nocioni, Pat Burke. Like it was a really good squad, but those dudes without them, I would have lost my mind. So Jose, of course, is working for the Cavs. They were here in Brooklyn at opening night.

So I saw him, we were just chit-chatting pregame, mentioned the pod with you. And he says, yeah, you guys played in Spain way back. It's like 2003, four, somewhere there. Yeah. So yeah. So I did the thing that I would obviously do. Like, all right, cool. What do you got? What do you got on Russia? whatever he's got, he's not giving it up. He did say, he said to ask you about the coach. He says the coach was crazy.

Yeah. So the coach's name was Dusko Ivanovich. And my agent prepared me. Like it was the most lucrative deal I had. And he was like, look, but the guy's a little quirky. Like he's got kind of a nickname of being the Yugoslavian Bobby Knight. I'm like, oh, I'm good. Don't worry.

We're good. We're fine. I just got done playing for Larry Brown. did not do Dusko any justice. He was a very strong fist, but like crazy stuff, man, crazy, crazy, crazy stuff. And so it became evident really quickly if I wasn't like homesick and just pissed for being in Spain that I did not want to be there any longer because I did not want to play for Dusko. And he's legendary though. Mind you, he's a great coach.

It just was like it was not somewhere I wanted to be. No throne chairs at least, I hope. No, no. No, throwing people out of practices, like a lot of different stuff, but no throwing chairs. Did you have beef at all? Like, did you ever have beef? Nope. Nope.

We were good. Yeah, because I played hard. And so one of the first things that happened that got me on the road size, my knees were sore. And we went to practice one day. And, you know, in Spain, you don't just go to practice, but like there might be like a three-mile run through the wilderness early in the day. And then you're coming to practice, right? So I'm already like, what the fuck? So we're in there and my knees are sore and I just want to get some shots up and like ease into it.

And one of the first things we did was a game where you run around and it's like tag, but the base would be like me. So you'd have like a seven foot person run and just jump on my back. And if he did that, he was safe. And I'm like, yo, no, I'm not fucking, I don't want him jumping on my back. And so we got into an argument like, I don't know, this is like probably a fifth day of practice, about like seven footers over 275 pounds running full speed and then like launching themselves landing on my back.

And we agreed to disagree about whether that was good for me or not. That seems like a bad idea. Even 2004 or whatever, I think we should have known as a society that was a bad idea. Yeah, pro athletes to do. Anyway, tell Jose I said, what's up? My favorite pastime now is going to like former coaches of Roger Bell or and players of people that know Roger Bell and tell them I know Roger Bell.

like over the weekend. I too, I saw two of your old friends. On Friday I saw Alvin Gentry. Oh, but Alvin's got dirt. Oh, he's got dirt that I will tell offline. Because you know, Alvin's dirt be like some shit like, damn, Alvin? What? And then I saw another old friend last night when I went up to Sacramento.

Phil Handy. Oh. Who says hello, who also says hello since his regards. He does not. have dirt on you. I mean, he at least, he probably does, but we'll not divulge it publicly because he's from the town and we don't do that.

But went up there to I went up to Sack yesterday to go see another one of Raj's old friend LeBron James, who was, this will make Howard feel old. Yesterday was 20 years to the day of his

debut in Sacramento, October 29th, 2023, 20 years to the day. that was the same date on 2003. So all that to say, LeBron is getting a little long in the tooth. And pre-Pod, me, Kermen, and Howard were just talking about just how he looked. Because I think Kerm has seen him in person already against Phoenix. And I got to see him last night.

And he looks like he looks mortal at this point, I think. And I know it's really early in the season, but they're putting him on him in. Darwin Ham is talking about putting him on a minute's restriction. Now, I don't know how long that is going to be, but wants to get him in the low 30s. Last night, he was not able to do that because the Lakers went into overtime against the Kings. He played 39 minutes. My question, and I want to start with Howard on this from the precedent point of view, how does a guy in his 21st season, how can he be expected to lead a

championship level team in this deep of a Western conference. On paper, this team looks great, but when I see them in person, it doesn't look like a team that is ready to make a deep one is one thing

but to. They don't look great on paper. Yeah, they look great on paper. No, they don't. No, they don't. No, they don't. No, they don't do that. You don't think they look great? No, they got to. When you see the names, Roger, you see LeBron and AD and you see some some really good role players you go yeah that looks good on paper that's good on paper they got some okay role players

and they have an aging like superstar who is still I think a little better than mortal and one of the most untrustworthy like superstars on a planet like that ain't great so how does he lead that Roger no go ahead Howard I'm sorry but I just wanted to make like shit that ain't great fucking torch

torch the premise right off the bat lit the host on fire oh yeah this is new. My bad. You're new here, Howard. Welcome, Howard. This is the game.

Welcome to the show. I was on my best behavior the first couple of times. Let's go. You notice I immediately took up for Logan, Roger. Yeah, I know. I saw that.

I'm going to give some benefit of the doubt here to all parties, LeBron and the role players that you just torched Raja. We're a couple of games in. I'm not one for overreaction theater, even though that's what we do in the NBA podcasting world this time of year. like let guys get their legs under them.

LeBron played none of the preseason, basically. What do he play? Like the final game of the preseason? Something like that. He was basically just, you know, you know, Biden is time. I think this team is going to be fine. Are they going to be contenders as some of us? I will throw myself in there.

I thought and still believe they could be in the mix at the top of the West. They've got some stuff to work out. And yeah, a lot of it's going to depend on the exact premise that Logan going to open up with is like how much of LeBron is still there. And like the numbers suggest in limited minutes that he's still pretty effective. But when you watch him, and we were talking about this offline before we hit record on this pod, watching him is the disturbing part, right? Because you don't see the same level of just explosion and pop and that, that intimidating sense. Like LeBron is settling for a lot of threes. I've got the numbers. I'll, I could jump into those in a

second, but like he's certainly settling for a lot of threes and deeper jumpers and not attacking as much. When he does attack, I can't, I, he, dude could still get to the hoop and I don't think anybody wants to get in this path. So, um, he's just not attacking as often, but also we're a couple games into the regular season of year 21. If he's going to be unleashing what, you know, the best of him, what he has left, what he needs to do to impose himself on a game, that's going to be in like, you know, April, maybe May and June if they get there. It's not like I don't expect we're going to see him completely unleash everything he's got in October. So I'm going to withhold judgment on how much of LeBron James is still there as we see the opening days of year 21. He has defied all logic,

all reason, all physics, all biology up until now. I know that there's a limit even for him. But he's still a really effective player. If they're going to be contenders, though, yeah, it goes to what Raja was saying about Anthony Davis, which is basically like, Anthony Davis has to be reliable. Anthony Davis has to be a superstar. Anthony Davis has to be the young star who has taken the torch and is carrying more of it. And I don't think anybody in the NBA trusts him to do that. Yeah, look, I agree with every single thing you said there, Howard, except one, and I will get to it.

I think that they can be a very good team in the Western Conference. Like, I think LeBron still can be great in spurts. And even when he's like not at superhero LeBron powers is still phenomenal. I've been one of the people that that have been on record are saying like I won't bet against a LeBron-led team. And I still kind of feel that way. And having said all of that, you know, I think your best, you know, the point I agree with the most is like that can all be true. And if you don't have a guy that can supplement him in a way that you trust and it can be consistent and it can be at a very high level, it could still

be all for not. And I will say that I didn't mean to throw shade like being a good role player in the NBA is not throwing shade at anybody, but I don't think they have guys that are like, man, that's a really dope bench. Like personally,

like I could be in the minority, but they're good players. I mean, no shade thrown at them. What I would disagree with is this. I know LeBron didn't play a lot in the preseason and he's probably buying his time. But every time you lace him up and get yourself ready to play and go out there and play any modicum of time

in an NBA game, it makes it less likely that you can tap into that super power six months from now. And those are just in little fractional increments, right? And so, you know, like, yeah, I think LeBron might be able to summon it in a couple games,

but asking him to have to summon it in like enough to win a seven game series without a reliable, consistent number two that on any given night can say, LeBron, just chill, I got you. Like, that's unrealistic. And it's even like, like, he was showing his age even post game, right? Like, I don't even, they play Orlando. The Lakers play Orlando tonight.

And I don't know if LeBron is playing. We'll see what happens. But on the day to day, like, and I guess this goes back to your point, Roger, on the day to day, you can't necessarily rely on him to play a week straight. So, but how does that affect rhythm, especially during the start of the season? Or do you think the Lakers are a. team that can, you know, they played together last year got some continuity, but are they a team that can, you know, similar to the 19 Raptors who could kind of just interchange their superstar in and out

and they will, they can weather the storm. Do you think this is a team set up for that? Well, I think it's going to have to be to some degree. You know, LeBron's averaging 34 minutes a game right now. Like, that's not going to happen. Look at, look at the last, what, four years as a, as a kind of blue blueprint of what he's going to need to play this year and then just kind of factor in for a little bit more age. Like, he's going to have to miss time. Hopefully it's not due to injury, but it's just, you know, penciled in in a way that's smart and well thought out that he can rest and have him, you know, kind of navigate the injury bug better. And so if that's already, you know, baked into the pie from start, yeah, they're going to have

to be a team where, you know, other people around LeBron figure out. And again, I don't, this is in a bashing session. It's not a bashing session, but like, you know, DeAngelo Russell is going to do what DeAngelo Russell does. Austin Reeves is going to do what Austin Reeves does. Like Leandro Barbosa, Boris Diao, Eddie House, Rajabelle, like Aaron McKees, role players on teams I was on. We do what we do. But someone has to be the breadwinner in LeBron's absence. And if we can do what we do, and if you don't have someone breadwinning consistently, it could just be a train wreck.

they're going to have to figure out how to make sure that AD is consistent, whether that's putting him on places on the floor that they think are going to help him be more consistent or whether that's, you know, I don't know, just having frank conversations over and over and over again about what this needs to look like when LeBron's not here. But yeah, they're going to have to figure out how to play without him. And AD is going to have to be the champion of that. And then role players are going to have to do a good job. And they might have to step out of themselves, you know, to a six to eight point, you know, per game average when he's not there to help supplement. But yeah, it's going to have to look like that, Logan, just because, like, LeBron is not going to be able to play 34 minutes over the course of 75 games.

It's his playmaking, though, right, Roger? Like, that's the thing. Like, LeBron is such, he's the absolute hub of every team he's ever been on. And his scoring is really important, but it's the playmaking that interplays with that. right the playmaking sets up the scoring the scoring sets up the playmaking and when your second star not only is anthony davis oft injured and sometimes unreliable but he's also like he's not a playmaker like he's he's he's a class i don't say classic big man because he's more of a modern big man but he's not nicola yokic you know he's not the hub of your offense in that kind of sense and so to me

this is a lot about the two guys you named d angelo russell austin rives and austin rives is off to a really rough start. They have obviously very high expectations for him. And so to me, like the whole season, if LeBron is ratcheting back either in minutes or just overall load, how much responsibility, how much playmaking, like to me, it falls on DeAngelo Russell, who has a track record of being able to score and playmate at a pretty high level. And it's about Austin Reeves. Like those two guys have to come through so that Anthony Davis can do what he does. And LeBron James. can ratchet back a little. And then if there's enough left there,

then you can get the other LeBron, hopefully, in the spring. That would be, that would be the plan. So here's what's really interesting about that. And I love where you just went with that. When Kauai was missing, when Kauai was in and out, because of the way that team was constructed, they didn't change their style of play. Someone else just plugged into the main ISO guy,

that being Kauai. But when he was out, like the rest of that team basically kind of played ISO ball, right? Like that's the way they kind of played. and they lived by that. To your point, like I watched the Lakers against Denver, and what blew me away was like,

you know, Denver has so much action that creates. Now, they got guys that can go ISO, but the action just puts you in such a bind defensively, the guys wind up with all kind of open looks. The Lakers have very little action. Like, it was like,

LeBron AD, LeBron AD. And so to the point that you just made, if LeBron's not there, an AD isn't a facilitator and an orchestrator, then what you're going to have to do as a team is play different. when he's not there,

which means you're going to have to be in more sets. You're going to have to be in more, you know, things that have a little bit more continuity so some of those other dudes can get off because, or maybe it's just pick and roll, but like I don't see,

you know, some of those guys operating to the level that some of the Raptors did and just pure isospace, if that makes sense. That's the conundrum though with playing with LeBron, right,

or playing with, it's similar to like when, and Howard could probably attest it is, but it seemed like when you, remember what, When Kobe was the leader of the offense, and if he was out for an extended stretch, they would go more, Phil Jackson would go more to the triangle. It seems like those two types of different teams, right, where you do that.

I don't, do you, if you're a role player, Rob, how do you adjust to that on a night-to-night basis when you don't know, like, what is your mindset in that way where one day you might be playing within a system where the ball is humming? And on other nights, you have to adjust back to, I'm now standing in the corner and I'm around pick and roll. Yeah. Well, I think it's really important to practice like that. Like, so for me, you know, it's harder to play seamlessly and have things go right in a continuity-based offense if you don't work on it a lot. Like you can always just stand in the corner if you have one of the blessed players on the planet and wait for him to throw you to throw you to.

ball. Like, you know, it might be frustrating because you're not touching it a lot at times if you're not one of the recipients of the passes. But anyone can do that. So I think the answer to your question, I don't know if it's a good one, is like we've got to script practices in a way that we are playing like that a lot in practice. So LeBron leaves the floor. Like we, every time he's not on the floor, we're going to play like that so that we get conditioned to understand it. Everyone understands the roles within it. I start to figure out where I'm going to get shots. like how I operate within this because it's different. And it's an easier thing to just say, all right, he's back.

We're going to strip, you know, the offense down a little bit. We're going to go high pick and roll right into an ISO for either LeBron or AD. Everybody hold your position, be ready to fire. Like that's an easier thing to do. But to learn how to play in those Phoenix Sun's offenses, it was, you know, people just saw it and thought like, oh, man, that's easy. No, fuck, no, it wasn't. Like, I had to be programmed to do that. You know what I mean?

I had to be programmed. That was practice after practice after practice. after practice after practice after practice of committing yourself. What Golden State does is I've been at their practices, but I would imagine when they are practicing and working, they are working on those actions like at repetitive nausea. So like it's like, hey, man, we know this dance like the back of our hand. And that's what you have to do if you're going to expect to play like that

when he's not there. That's a point. Howard, from an organizational standpoint, talking about the Lakers here. LeBron has a player option for next season. He could decline it. He could take it on. Or, you know, the way he is talking, this could be his last season.

I don't believe that. I think if LeBron goes out, he's going to want the retirement tour. But from a Laker standpoint, how are you approaching these next few years where it seems like you're in this purgatory of, is LeBron going to be a top five player as the years get into the 20s? And then we have this guy in Anthony Davis. And then also we have the clutch influence, right, where they have infiltrated that organization in a way that I don't think an agency has ever done so. How do you navigate this as a Lakers front office going forward over the next few years? Well, real quick, just to throw one piece aside in the tradition of Rogerville,

torching parts of your premise before answering the rest of it. Oh, God. No, no, I'm just going to say like the agency, like infiltrating an organization. Like, that's happened for, like, for decades. Like, that's, that's for years. There's been plenty of times when there's been, like, when we joked about a certain agent being like the unofficial GM of certain teams at times. It's happened.

It's happened. Or, I mean, even in NICs with CAA, right? Like, even that influence is there. Even more so there. And it's a whole other level. But anyway, but prior to that, too, and with other organizations and other agencies. The Lakers were in a really tough spot. But, I mean, it's like, it's a tough spot that, like, who,

who has any sympathy for them? Like, oh, you're in a tough spot. You've got one of the greatest players in the history of the game and still playing at a pretty high level late in his career. And you have to worry about what to do when and if he hangs it up. Look, they've got Anthony Davis, who will continue to be a top 10, 15, 20 player for several years to come. So if LeBraw James, like, we're way ahead of things here. But like if LeBron James hug it up at the end of this season decided to decline the option,

retiring, whatever. I don't think anybody believes that. But all right, you've still got Anthony Davis. And I'm not saying you can build a contender around Anthony Davis alone. I think it's pretty clear at this stage you cannot. But they've got enough pieces around that are movable. They still have held onto some of their picks. Each year that passes, they get some of those picks back.

It's a seven-year thing, right? Where you trade it out picks and swaps in the Anthony Davis deal. And so for the longest time, you had nothing you could deal. And each year that goes by, you get a little bit back. And they traded one away last year when they were doing the Russell Westbrook dump. But I think they'll be fine. I would say they're always going to be a destination. But then again, they had all those fallow years where they couldn't get anybody to come play with Kobe.

Once Kobe retired, they couldn't get anybody to come for a while until LeBron finally signed up. Like, it's not foolproof for any organization in any market, even the glamour markets, even the Lakers, the most glamorous team in the NBA. Just being the Lakers is not always enough. all that said, like they are stuck for the time being. Again, no sympathy for the Lakers being stuck with LeBron, James, Anthony Davis, and a pretty decent cast. But you can't really pivot in the meantime. You are on this course until you're not.

And I think that's why they were so reluctant to part with any picks at all to get out of Russell Westbrook and to re-fortify the right. Now, they did. They finally traded one pick. not two. But that's why because they're, and this happens, right? We saw it with the Cavaliers. The last year that LeBron was playing there, the Cavs had a pick from the Nets, which was supposed to be this great pick that was one of the ones that the Nets had sent to Boston initially in the Pierce Garnett deal. The Cavs end up with it. It ended up being the eighth overall pick became Colin Sexton, did not change their world. But they would not trade that pick to fortify the roster

around LeBron in his final season because they were worried that they needed that pick to rebuild after LeBron. This is the bind that you get in with an aging star, but it's just the cycle of the NBA. So I will say just a quick aside, because I ran the numbers earlier, I want to get to these on Stadhead. That's part of basketball reference. If you run the numbers on guys who played in age 39 or later, I don't want to do year 21 because only a handful of guys have ever even gotten to year 21.

But a lot of guys have gotten to age 39 because back in the day, guys came in a little older, right? Players aged 39 or later, so 39, 40, 41. And that's as of January 31st within that season is the cutoff. Only 86 players ever and only 47 of those guys played 41 or more games. So half the season. Of those 47, only seven of them averaged over 30 minutes. a game. Only three of them, well, I should say two, two guys. So this is age 39 or later, average 20 plus points. Michael Jordan, Cromelone, end of list. LeBron James would be the third

to do it. Usage rate, percentage of possessions that you use while you're on the court, only two of them over 25. The reason that's important is you usually, if you're a star in this league, you're usage of 30, 35 these days, and probably minimum 25 if you're saying that you are the engine of your offense. Only guys with usage over 25 at age 39 or later. Again, MJ in that last year with the Wizards and Carl Malone. So that's it. And LeBron's at 28.5 usage right now. So there's just very little precedent for this. And LeBron's already defied, like we say, all kinds of, of, of, of, odds and precedents and everything else.

But it is historically, it's just asking a lot of him to still be leading this team at a high level at this stage. There is, look, ain't no way LeBron, however many years ago they traded for AD. There's no fucking way that LeBron sitting there then thought he was in this situation now. Point blank, period. Ain't no way. With this much burden still on him. Ain't no way.

Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Roger has not been falling for the banana in the tailpipe. From jump. From the start, I told you. From the start. Since 2020, he was fed up already.

What a reasonable expectations so far right now for the Lakers for you, Raj. Are you, are you, is this about where you thought they'd be? Or did you think that they could be a little bit better? Do you think maybe two and one? Let me say again, I'm not in panic more. This isn't like a knee jerk to what I've seen through three games. That's not what I'm here to do. I think they could wind up being a really good team.

I just am really concerned about how long they could be that team for. Because of everything we talked about in terms of LeBron's age, amount of time played, what he will have to miss to stay fresh, and the inconsistency of the other guy that you would then rely on to get it done. I think they could be a good team. I don't see them as a championship team. I see them in a tier that isn't like to be to be mocked or made fun of like below that like in a group of teams that could be fighting, you know, but I think ultimately, you know, it's going to be really hard for them to get over the hump. And it reared its head last year in the playoffs.

Like it reared its head. Like you were having, you'd have good games and they'd be right there and you'd think, man, yeah, I could see that. And then there's a dud because, you know, it's hard for one to get his body back up to to really, you know, win the game. for you like on back-to-back nights or you know this the second night and then the other one doesn't show up and so that's going to bite them it's just going to it is what it is one parting thought one parting thought what if this is not the finished lakers changes everything what it what if there's a midseason trade for oh i don't know the guy who's been trying to angle his way to l.A. for the last couple years it is currently stuck in dallas in a marriage of

convenience that may or may not work out. Like the Kyrie thing is still on the table. It's out there somewhere. I'm not predicting it's going to happen. This is not a rumor. This is not a report. This is not sources say. I'm just saying there's a reasonable thought,

expectation, not expectation, a reasonable curiosity. So that maybe that is still in the cards. If that's what we're talking, Howard, Kyrie, James Hardin, and I'm just throwing names out there, people of that ilk that you know historically will get you a game or, you know, are just, look, I like DeAngelo. I didn't mean to be it like that. Like, who the fuck am I to be throwing shade?

I was a career role player. My highest average was 15 points a game. Like, that's not what I'm doing. But those dudes aren't like the guys you're depending on in playoff games to consistently win you games. You get me another one of those out there in L.A. to partner with AD and LeBron. We're talking.

This is, that changes everything. Changes everything. And again, yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't expect it. I'm not predicting it. And if the Mavericks get off to a good start over the first couple of months, they would be loath to do it. But we know that Kyrie wanted to play with LeBron again.

We know LeBron wanted him in L.A. We know that Kyrie wasn't angling to get to Dallas when he made his trade demand last season. And yeah, he resigned because nobody else had the ability or the means to sign him to the kind of contract he wanted to. Like I say, it's a marriage of convenience. And we'll see how it works out. But the Lakers do have a decent collection now of movable players at reasonable salary. that you could combine. And if you have to throw in another future pick or swaps or whatever, I'm just saying.

It's a possibility out there. I'm not predicted, but it's possible. I'll just, well, I'll take that. And I'm not even a Laker fan, but I will champion that. Let's put that out. Let's get that out there on the Twitter sphere. That's what they need. Make that move.

Don't even wait. You ain't got to watch that. I'm telling you. Hey, Polinka, I'm telling you right now. You ain't got to watch that shit. You don't got to watch it to do what it's going to do. you need to make the move make it Roger of those

of those two or three names you named what you want on the Lakers What about you Howard Kyrie Harden or who is there Was there anybody else in that mix Is there a who? I don't think there's a person Yeah I mean we'll see who else Shakes loose this season because somebody always does

But between Kyrie and James Hardin I can't believe I'm saying this but definitely Kyrie All that though Kerm puts in the chat Kerm, Laker fan of the pod, says, please don't bring up Hardening the Lakers ever again. So we will stop on that. Let's take a quick break and we're going to talk about teams to panic for in the Eastern Conference. Wow. Jump into the NBA action with Fanduel, America's number one sports book.

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We are now going to Milwaukee. It's three games in, but, you know, we're here. What else are going to do? The Hawks went into Milwaukee and beat the Bucks, 127, 110, and it wasn't even that close. The Hawks had eight players and double figures. Trey Young, leading the pack with 20 and 11, but he, on 35% shooting, yuck. Dame Lillard was two of 12 for six points and a team low minus 29 plus minus.

The best thing, honestly, about this game was that Flavor Flavid did the national anthem. But, Raja, my question to you, is this a symptom of we just got here and we're learning each other and these things happen when you put two players together? Or is this something that we need to panic about a few games into the season, a week into the season? No. Are the bucks cooked? No, the bucks cooked.

That's fantastic. There's no panic. Like, we need to wait and see. And to the other part of the question, I need to wait and see. Like, I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking at yet through two games. Like, it's hard for me to tell you if this is, If there's some symptoms with the roster, if there's some things philosophically that have been changed by the new

coaching staff that are going to be problems for the way they play. Like, I don't know yet. I got to sit and watch. So for right now, I'm going to tell you that like, look, 39 and 6, I think is what he had,

right? Like 39 in his debut, Dame Lillard, that is, and 6 in game 2. That just screams like I'm not comfortable here yet. And I don't think that's that's a crazy like thing to expect from a player like that trying to join forces with a with a with a bucks team with Janus that's been really, really successful. Like there is going to be a feeling out period. There's going to be an adjustment period. There's going to be a experimental period for for them offensively to figure out how everyone works together on a night to night basis consistently. So then we don't have this.

variance and output from a guy that's way too good of a player to do that, right? And so I think I chop it up to that at this point. Now, there are probably some things that you've seen throughout the games that may wind up being like, hey, man, we need to address that defensively or X, Y, and Z. But right now, I think it's so early that I'm going to chalk this up to like, hey, bro, this is just them trying to figure out. They're going to be some games. There are going to be some clunkers along the way. Howard, this is your 27th season covering the league. When you see a new team, how many games do you give them before you judge whether they're good or bad? Like, how do you, how do you, and how does that, and how do you go from your judgment to,

how do you apply that to this team right here? I mean, NBA people always say 20, 25 games, right? Like, you get a month and a half, two months into the season. And at that point, you kind of are who you are, I think it's a good rule of thumb. I mean, I'm not, you know, like I said, I already, already, I already made all my jokes about overreaction theater at the, the opening of the pod. Like, I just, the first week of the season, we freak out about everything. Remember the year when, like, the Sixers during the tanking, during the process, like, I don't know, went off to like a six and oh, start or something one year. Didn't that happen? There was one year where they were like surprisingly good, oh, look at the Sixers. They're on the, no, they weren't. Like, no, no.

Like, just there's no point. The Bucks didn't have Chris Middleton yesterday. That's not the whole thing. And Chris Middleton has been missing a lot of time the last couple of years. It's probably going to continue to miss time. So it's actually fair to judge them without Middleton because Middleton being off and on is just kind of the state of things. But like, they really want to be playing Jay Crowder 26 minutes a night because that's what he's doing so far. That guy didn't even play almost all of last season.

They're incorporating Malik Beasley. incorporating dame obviously they've got some other new pieces they're trying to to you know give a little more time to like beauchamp and um you know it's early in the look the hawks aren't a bad team like you know you don't want to lose a home game to them but like the hawks are a good team and you know new year to quince snider and um i don't know there's there's not a lot if i'm I'm going to play Pollyanna glass half full. Janice out of the cunbo made eight of his 10 free throws. That's a good sign.

That's a good side for them. Bobby Ford has had a strong performance off the bench, five of ten from the field. Beasley in the spot start comes through with 18 points on six or 12 shooting, made four of his 10 threes. The bucks are going to be fine. I'm not. Howard talked about just even for the quadrants,

because I've heard that as well from NBA players, right? like the first 20 games. You even said it on the pod, the second 20 games, you always judge an NBA season in those quadrants. From inside of the locker room, what are those quadrants like? What is this one like versus when we get to March?

And like just from an overall vibe standpoint, what is the vibe check of those things? Not just for the bucks, but for teams in general. And how do you use that to get into the season? Yeah, that's an interesting question. Look, when you're playing, you come out the gate and you come out the gate hot, right?

And you're winning games and you're winning games and you're winning games and you're winning games and you're winning games. Like at the beginning of that, you're waiting for the next shoot you drop. You're waiting for like, okay, well, this can't, maybe this isn't exactly who we are. Like, let's try to keep it going. But probably, you know, because you don't know who you are at the start of a season. I mean, especially when you put a collection of new talent together, right? I mean, you got Janice's and the best players on the planet you do, but teams that don't have that, you know, they don't have necessarily the all-star or tandem of all-stars that should automatically put you in a top four or five spot in your respective conference. Like, you're just trying to see who you are.

And so in that first window of time, like if you're winning and you're and you're waiting and you're waiting, like by about 10 games, you start to say, well, shit. Like, you know, we, we ain't got to wait for 20. Like, this is what it is. Expectations, you know, then start to change. Like, understanding of what's possible changes, even before you get out of the first 20, right? Because you're like, no, this ain't, this isn't like we ran off four or five or even to to Howard's point six.

Like, we're 10 and 11 in. We're 10 and one. And our loss was one where we could point to any number of things that we did wrong to lose the game. Like, this is, this is sustainable. And so you can quickly. like get into a space where you start getting hungrier. You're like, oh, shit, like we might have grossly underestimated who we are.

Let's get hungry. Start owning this and see what we can make out of it, you know? On the flip side of that, like, if you come out, you know, as a team that it's underachieving in the first 20, like you take the opposite approach. It's so crazy how perspectives will change things. You're like, no, we're good. We're good. We just, look, let's hover around 500 until we get things figured out.

Like, don't want to be two and nine, like three and eight. Like, that's not good. like now we're having team meetings and shit not now they're talking about the coach possibly getting fired that's an ugly place to be i've been there but like we're hovering around 500 one game over one game below now you're like look man we just need to stay focused on like the message stay focused on the details continue to go in every day and practice and try to iron this stuff out because if we can get those right like we're right there like by the nature of our record we could go we could go either way. So let's, let's keep pushing to about that 20 mark, see where we're at then.

Like we were five and six, you know, at 11. Let's see if we can be at like, I don't know, 12 and 8 at 20. You know what I mean? And then, you know, let's just keep pulling away in a way that gets better. And so that's what you're doing in that first, you know, first 20, man, like trying to figure out who you are if it's good, better than you thought. Let's keep riding with it and double down. If we're not where we're supposed to be. We got time to fix it. You're just. start getting up into the 30s and you ain't fixed it yet, I mean, that's, that's when people start, you know, the early, the early all-star break. Hey, man, we need a break from this shit. Roger, the Bulls had a players-only meeting after game one last week. Have you ever heard of that?

Oh, my God, that is not, no, bueno. No, bueno. That's got to be a record. That's definitely a record. Players-only meetings. I'm trying to think of any that were on a team that was in a good head, and wound up being really productive. And I really can't draw in one. What's the earliest you were ever in a player's only meeting? The earliest in the season. Well, it was definitely in Charlotte. It was definitely in Charlotte.

I think Tyson Chandler probably called it. And I don't remember how early it was in that season, but it was relatively early in the season. What is said in the players only meetings? what are what are what are what is set into players only meetings besides like you know stuff a lot of screaming a lot of cursing it's a um you guys Seinfeld fans oh yeah you remember festivist it's air it's airing of grievances it's airing of grievances i don't know what day a festivist erins and grievances erring of grievances was but that's essentially what it is man

you're in there um there there can be finger pointing um sometimes it's amongst each other in the room. Sometimes it's, it's fingers being pointed collectively at someone that's not in the room. But it's generally not, it's generally never coming from a place of like, hey, everything's good here. We just need to have a team meeting. Wait, so this is so fascinating because we had Howard try to, trying to lock the code on team meetings all the time.

That's how we break our numbers, right? But like, how does, how like, so from the moment. Sorry, let me just pin it real quick. you know what it's good team meeting is? What? We all went out to dinner and we shared a couple bottles of wine. That's a good team meeting. Yeah.

Not we're in this fucking random room in an arena that's cold as fuck after a shoot around. When that shit happens and they've labeled it team meeting, things are not going well. So how does it get from the point where y'all are like, you know, talking and like airing each other's grievances out, right? To the point where you guys come outside and lie to us saying everything is okay. Like how do you get from the first point? to like talking to us. No, I mean, that's, that's discussed in the team meeting, right? Like when we leave the team meeting, everything is fine.

Like, we will come out of this and the United Front will be problem solved. Grievances aired. Differences like gaps closed. We're ready to play ball. That rarely winds up being what transpires, but that's what we're going to tell y'all. And we talk about that in the meeting. Howard, what's been the best team meeting you've covered? And what was the most team median is shit?

Yes. I'm glad you asked. 98, 99, which is really only 99 because the lockout wipes out much of that season. They end up pressing 50 games into 90 days after the lockout. And I'm covering the Lakers. They start off the season in a bad way already. Shaq and Kobe are already at each other's throats. Derek Harper, one of my favorite all-time guys.

Derek Harper has been brought in as the voice of wisdom. And if you guys know Derek Harper and listeners, if you've ever watched League Pass at minimum, even if you were not alive to see Derek Harper play, he's on the broadcast. And you can hear Harp's voice, which I cannot possibly do an impression of because it's like so many registers down here. Like it's really low and it's like baritone and it's it's swab, it's cool. Very white ain't got shit on Derek Harper, huh? No, very white. Got nothing on it.

him. Harp's got, like, there's gravitas, man, partially because of his career, right? He was like 34, 35 at that stage. It had been around a while, respected, really smart, thoughtful player, natural leader type, right? But also, damn, that voice doesn't hurt. So the Lakers have a back to back to back, three straight nights, because this is how the league was going to get 50 games done in 90 days. You all should see the stink face on Roger Bell's face right now on our video here. back to back to back and the Lakers were set from they started in Seattle they went to Denver and then back to Vancouver oh go for yeah on three straight nights and they lose all three and so the game is over in Vancouver we the media are standing outside the locker and waiting

to get in usually there's like a 10 15 minute cool off period we've already talked to del Harris who was head coach although as it turned out that was his last night as has as head coach We're standing outside the locker room. It has not opened yet. We're waiting. We're waiting. We're on fucking deadline. Like, come on, guys, get the locker room up and what's going on. And you could hear the voices through the door.

The one that I heard the most clearly, Derek Harper, because that baritone was just resonating through the closed doors. I could hear like harp was at these guys. And we finally get in. We're making the rounds and we get to harp. and we're like, so, you know, hey, you know, we're trying to be, like, gentle about it. We're trying to be, like, polite, but ask the question. Like, so what the hell's going on and what's going on with this team meeting?

And I said, at one point to harp, I said, you know, we could hear you right through the door. Like, your voice is kind of carrying. And harp, it was just kind of fun. I don't know why I remember this from like 20-something years later. He said something like, well, so I'm like, sorry, Howard, if I, you know, offended you by, by yell it so loud you could hear me through the door. It was like this weird apology. Like, I don't remember the exact words, but it was like, Harp, and the,

This kind of Ryeway was apologizing for being so emphatic and loud that we could hear him on the other side of the door of the locker room of Vancouver. But yeah, the next morning, Del Harris gets fired and Dennis Rodman gets signed. And those press conferences, by the way, this is a story for another day. Those press conferences were back to back. Del Harris, heartfelt, sad, attended his own firing press conference. Only twice I've seen that my career. Del Harris and Avery Johnson when they got fired in New Jersey. Were we already in Brooklyn?

No, we were in Brooklyn by then. Avery Johnson being fired by the Nets. Del Harris being fired by the Lakers. The only two times I've seen a head coach attend a press conference of his own firing. Dell heartfelt, extensive, as Dell tends to be. And then he walked out and Dennis Rodman walked in. And then we had a Dennis Rodman press conference. What a week.

It's like, what a fucking reporting week. So in that that shit is only meeting. I bet that shit did. D. Harp is just phenomenal. Like, he's great. Love that dude.

Fingers were being pointed at everyone. Outside the room, inside the room. That sounds like just a finger pointing. Like everyone was under the gun that night. Howard, we had the Roger point of view of how you approach the quadrants of the season. From a reporting standpoint,

point, when do you, when is it time to lay the hammer down? Like, I know if you were Chicago Tribune or like, you know, or something like that after one game, you'd probably, you know, kick their ass after players meeting one game. But like on a normal team, when do you lay down the gaunt? So I'm like, in the years that I was a beat writer, like you're, you're more news reporter than you are columnists. So you're not, you could do an analysis that's kind of like, here's everything that's fundamentally wrong with this team that just cannot be fixed and it's hopeless, something

like that. But you're not, like, it's not really the hammer hammer. Like in the last 10 years, I've been more of just like, you know, roving national writer columnist. So, you know, I could just jump in and bury anybody at any time, I suppose. But as a beat writer, and you're kind of monitoring the rhythms of the team as you go. And there are times you know, like stuff is just off kilter. And there are times that you don't see it coming. And it can change quickly. So I don't know. You guys know me. I'm pretty measured. And so, like, I don't, I don't usually rush to judgment on these things personally. But, um, but, you know, like last season, I thought, you know, like the Lakers get off to that, what was two and eight, two and ten, whatever it was, two and something start.

And all I kept thinking was, holy crap, they're, they're like, they're not going to abandon this, this failed Russell Westbrook experiment. They're not, they didn't fix the roster in the offseason. They're showing no inclination to do it now. And LeBron James is going to spend one of his last really good years on a dead team that can't make the playoffs. And so I wrote a big piece that many folks with that organization were not very happy about. But I wrote a big piece in like mid to late December last year that was, yeah, past the quarter mark where it was like, if they don't do something, they really are going to waste one of the last best years of LeBron's career. And I did some his same thing I did earlier in the pod, did a stathead research, did some ransom numbers,

try to figure out guys this late in their career still playing at X level and how many of them got to the playoffs or how far they got. And like LeBron was like an outlier of being still that effective on a team that looked like it was going nowhere. To the Lakers credit, they recovered. Not saying it was because of any of my writing or reporting. But, you know, there was obviously a lot of pressure on them. I, you know, didn't need it from me. And they fixed things in midseason. They recovered well. Rob Polinkett did a great job. I thought he could have done so sooner would be my only standing critique, but they did what they needed to do. But there was a case where, yes, there was certain circumstances that I think made it clear

to me at that stage of a season. Like, you know, you can judge what this is right now. We know enough to know that this is headed the wrong direction. Last question I have for this before we get out of here, to Raja. What type of mental fortitude does it take to change the trajectory of your season in a way at Howard just described for a basketball team, mid-season and that second quadrant going into the trade deadline. What kind of mindset do you have to have in order to be able to do what a Lakers team did last season or any team for that matter? What do you need to have mentally to get there?

Well, it helps if a, I mean, if you're a flailing team and you just, you know, can't it right, it helps to have some personnel change. It helps to have some fresh blood. Like, you know, it just, it does because it gives you a renewed sense of anything's possible just because, you know, you don't know what you are now because you have this new piece. And if it's a piece of any real substance or a couple pieces that fill holes that everyone knew existed, that's going to organically give you more hope. Like the things are possible now. We've made, we've made a move, right? So that helps. If you're a team that doesn't make a move, personnel. A coach can do that too. A change in coaching philosophy. If there's something going on

where, you know, I don't mean to beat the players-only meeting thing. But like, say, we've had these meetings and everyone identifies like, look, this isn't a player issue. This is a messaging philosophy issue. Like, if we could just get someone in here that would free us up and let us go to work. Like sometimes. Magic Johnson Paul Westfall action. Yeah. Sometimes that can happen. And then the, You know, the third case scenario would be just a team that that finds their stride, I guess, later in the season. It's just been kind of hovering.

And then they just get it together. That type of team, Logan, that's, I mean, yeah, you got to have some tough-minded, competitive people in there. A lot of times, I think, in cases like that, you wind up with maybe some, some situations within the current roster. If the roster doesn't flip, like you wind up trying an experience. with some new things within that roster that might unlock a little bit more of a potential. Do you know what I mean? And it allows that team that may be kicking to another gear and you might

have found something as a staff. But generally speaking, I got a job to do. And you got guys like myself and others that may be on a two-year deal or on a one-year deal or whatever that are playing for another deal. And we're always out there. Every time we get out on the court, we're auditioning for every team in the league because we're not locked into any big max deal. And so like there's a lot of pride people taking that. So you just stick with it. You keep going out there.

There's never any quit. And so, you know, if you can wind up with a little shakeup of maybe shit, maybe we were playing a lot of man to man. And we were in old school terminology because very few people blitz now. But maybe we were in blitz where we're trapping, pick and roll a lot up top. And we said,

hey man, that's just not been good. Like, so let's try to cover the turn or being a drop coverage. We're going to drop that big a little bit and you get over and corral him and force him into this tight space and then he'll have to spray it out. We'll build back. Maybe it's something like that where we just change it and we're like, that's better. That helps. But there's got to be some ember of like, of something that gives you a little renewed hope

and a little restored faith and then that can spark, you know, kind of the rest of your season. But you just stick with it and you keep being a pro and you keep understanding it. look, dog, I got to figure out where that next deal is coming from. And every time I go out here and lace these things up, somebody's got tape on me. And I want that tape to represent the best version of me and can every single time. I don't give a damn what's going on up in the front office

or with the coach winning and losing or like real talk. Like, I'm trying to take care of this. That was wise words from a decent man. Jeez. Jesus. Way to go. Hey, dog. We're trying to eat.

I don't got a degree. That was a sermon. I don't have a degree, damn it. I got out of the world. I got a degree, but you got a kid. No, but can you dig what I'm saying? Like, look, when I played, you know, I was a knucklehead in school, man. I didn't get that damn degree.

Like, I had a lot of eggs in that basket. And I was very fortunate and blessed. So, like, real talk, that was about this is the only path I have to really feed these people. So, like, to the best of my ability, like, we might be losing and it might suck, but I'm going to take my ass out there. try to put on. That's why you got to check up more shots, Roger. You got to get yours.

We had played with a lot of those too, Howard. I played with a lot of those, man. This person will remain nameless. But I had a cat tell me, I shit you not. I couldn't even, like, I couldn't even dignify it with a response. I just walked away. I was like, hey, man, you know, look, we could be so much better of such and such would just, you know, like, we got to play a little bit of defense, man.

Like, if we could do that. And his teammate who was who I was trying to kind of get the message to him by talking about someone else, right? Like without going at him and getting him defensive, his answer to me was, yeah, but sometimes asking somebody to play defense just takes away from their offense. I said, well, there, there it is. There it is, my guy. Wow.

Well, that is a great place to end. our motherfucking Mondays. Thank you for story time with Roger Bell. Thank you, Howard, motherfucking, Beck, for holding it down every Monday with us. We will see you guys on Thursday. Tap in. We are here Mondays and Thursdays. Ah, all the shits.

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