The Ringer NBA Show - Elite, but Overlooked: The Pacers and the Nuggets | The Mismatch (Ep. 361)

Episode Date: January 2, 2019

The Indiana Pacers remain consistently among the Eastern Conference elite (2:59), the Denver Nuggets continue their dominant run atop the West (9:33), and James Harden’s propensity for drawing fouls fuels his scorching stretch of games (18:00). Plus, five questions for the NBA in 2019 (39:55). Hosts: Chris Vernon, Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. After a three-year hiatus, Bill Simmons is back with his NBA trade value rankings for the 2018 and 2019 season. You can check that out as well as our year-in-review articles wrapping up everything 2018 on the site. Also, throughout the holidays, we will be sticking to a regular podcast schedule, so make sure to tune in to your favorite shows as usual. Happy holidays from The Ringer. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Varner. And joining me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Brien.

Bomber, A.K. A.K. A. Kevin O. Climler, A.K.A. Kevin O'Conflict. Kevin. Happy New Year, Chris. How you doing? Happy New Year to you. It is 2019. We've got a lot of stuff to get to. And I swear, every single week, by the time we come on this podcast, I look at the Western Conference standings and the Eastern Conference standings. And dependent on how a team is performed in that week, it feels like everything has changed. And teams go on one little run, and all of a sudden, you look, and in the standings, they're a home court advantage team in the Western Conference. And then teams lose for a week, and they're out of the playoffs completely.

We are now, you know, almost halfway through the season, Kevin. And I know most people think at the very end, the Warriors are going to be there. But I still don't have a great. great grasp on who the eight playoff teams in the West are going to be. A little bit better, it shook out a little bit better in the East, but in the Western Conference, who knows? There's still only eight and a half game separating the one seed and the 14 seed, which is Denver and then New Orleans in that 14 slot right now.

So at this point, it still is really, really hard to figure out what teams are actually going to make it. Even a team like Oklahoma City, who we've talked about before. and praise their top-rank defense, even they're a question because of their struggles against teams over 500. With Houston, if James Hardin weren't having this ridiculous run, they wouldn't be in that four spot. With Portland, despite having guys like C.J. McCollum and Damien Lillard,

they're still on that bubble. They're still only the two-and-a-half games separated from being the nine-spot where Sacramento is now. I think it has shook out a little bit like you said, Chris. I think most of the teams that are in there now are probably going to be in there at the end. But I think that seven, eight spot will be between a group like Portland, L.A. Clippers, jazz, and maybe the King sustained success.

But even I have questions about them being able to do that. It's wild, Chris. It's more fun than I can remember it, though. The two teams that have not gotten enough talk, and we are, we've talked a lot more about the nuggets, I think, certainly, than we have the Pacers. Those would be the two. Because, I mean, you look at the standings, again, or almost midway through the season, and the nuggets are sitting in the number one spot in the Western Conference. And on the flip side, in the Eastern Conference, you know, we thought the Bucks would be up there.

We thought the Raptors would be up there. Certainly the Sixers and the Celtics. But the longer the season goes on, the more you start to think that the, we left the Pacers out. And everybody did. And the Pacers could crash that party. I don't know. I honestly, I think with Indiana, they were a team that, you know, they won 48 games last year. And I think with them, you're expecting Oladipo if he were to sustain his success that, you know, they'd at least be a top four or five seed.

I don't know about number three like they're right now, but. But don't you think it was presumptive that we thought the Bucks, the Raptors, the Sixers, and the Celtics, those will be your Eastern Conference semifinal teams. We thought we knew that. I think everybody did. Yeah, I think that's fair. Right. And all I'm saying is the Pacers could crash that party. I'm not sure that's really changed though, to be honest. Really?

No. Oh, I'm really liking the Pacers. I still view those teams as having higher upside in the playoffs. When you're projecting ahead, when rotations are at eight or nine guys, I think at that point, when you're projecting forward, I would still put those teams as the favorites ahead of Indiana. I certainly think that Indiana, if they, you know, obviously everybody's got a stand. healthy. But if they stay healthy and they were a home court advantage team, that a lot of these series are going to go to seven games. I believe that. And if you go to seven games and you've got home court advantage in that game seven, I could totally see them being in the Eastern Conference

final. No doubt. Indiana, despite everything I just said, Indiana is a team that when it comes to the playoffs, they will not be an easy out. They will not be an easy out. Indiana will be a team that can easily take another Eastern Harbor team to six or seven games. I think with them, they're so interesting because they can play different styles. I think you're seeing Thaddeus Young have one of, if not the best season of his career, playing the four. Victor Oladipo, obviously sustaining the same success that he had last year. But the guy who's taking the leap this season, though, Chris, is DeMontosabonis.

We knew at Gonzaga when he was in college what he could do as an interior scorer. There was flashes of his passing. There was little moments that he had on the defensive end of the Florida, Fendingwell. But this year, year three of his career, his second one, Indiana, he's put it all together. And he's somebody who their bench was already good last year. But now with the depth they've added, adding to T.R. Tiger Evans this year, with Sabona's taking a leap.

They have gone from a nice, cute 48-win team to a team that's a little bit more serious as a playoff. I still put them below other teams. but with their depth and with their top-end talent led by Ola Depot, they definitely would not be an easy outcome playoff time. I actually saw the sub-bonous thing coming in the preseason this year. People could go probably find this. But I saw him in a pre-season game and thought, my God, this guy is in unbelievable shape.

You know, he'd been really concentrating on getting in the best shape of his life. And he dominated the game. It was a preseason game, but it was obvious. This was a guy that was ready to, he just looked different. He looked different this year than he had in the past. And one of the shocking things is, when you see him out on the floor there with Ola Depot, that's two of their top three scorers on a team that's ranked third in the Eastern Conference right now. And it is probably the greatest lesson in trade reaction we could ever get, right?

Because who? I know about it. I mean, it is, it really is. It's one of those where we look back and if you could find everything that everyone said after that trade went down for Paul George. And there is a tremendous argument to be made that they won that trade now. I don't think there's any question. O'Aidibo might be, you know, the best shooting guard in the conference. I mean, I don't know if they won the trade, but both teams won.

I think there's no loser in that trade. I mean, I look back at my reaction to that trade, and my shock was founded on like the lack of a pick. And I'm still surprised Oklahoma City didn't have to give up a pick in the deal. But it's beside the point because Ola Depot is a player that in 2013, I had him ranked number one. I gave up. I gave up after four seasons.

And I shouldn't have. A lot of people shouldn't have. The leap he made last season was remarkable to watch. He became a better shooter, a better athlete working with David Alexander down in Miami. Development is not linear. And for every player, it's different. And for Oladipo, it just happened to coincide with him going back to Indiana. And then with Sabonis, he was stuck in a tough situation as a rookie big man in Oklahoma City,

playing off ball being forced to be a spot-up shooter. And that's pretty much it. Never mind the fact that young big men typically always suck. Right? So it's unfair to expect him as a rookie to look like anything of value. And yet, not only doesn't speak to like the reaction to, trades, but also with how draft picks depreciate and value so quickly. So with Sabonis, he's a guy drafted 11th.

Oklahoma City traded for him in the draft in 2016. I liked him in Gonzaga. A lot of people like, love Sabonis and his ability to become the guy that we're seeing today. And yet after one season that wasn't an ideal situation for him in which he struggled, it's like, ah, he doesn't have much value. but Indiana obviously saw through that and got a player that's for them already really, really good playing 25 minutes per game. But as he gets older, as he's playing 32, 33, 34 minutes per game, maybe it becomes a guy that's averaging like 20 and 12. I think he has that in him.

If he's fed the opportunity and if he starts shooting threes instead of deep mid-range jumpers, that's there for him. In addition to being an elite rebounder and a solid defender and a good passer, talking about a centerpiece for Indiana moving forward. And then on the flip side, that Denver Nuggets team, who sit there through 35 games at 24 and 11, they are in the midst of another three-game win streak. And they are one that throughout the year, we say, oh, well, if they lose him or if they lose him,

if they have to withstand injury, they could fall back. I mean, they've withstood. all manner of injury. And here they are still through 35 games at the very top of the conference. They are 15 and 3 on their home floor. They're 15 and 6 in games against the Western Conference. So poking holes in what they have done so far is nearly impossible. They have just been fantastic.

They're top 10 in offensive efficiency. Their top 10 in defensive efficiency. Again, Yokic has another huge night last. night, but I think at the beginning of the season, we thought Denver, just like everybody else, is going to be in the fight for a playoff spot. A lot of people had them as a playoff team. Not many. I don't know if any, had them as a top four seed. But the longer we go, the more you've got to start believing in them because they have done this. I mean, they lost Will Barton at the very beginning of the year. They lost Millsat for a chunk of games. They've lost Gary Harris

for a chunk of games. They've been playing guys that were in the G League last year for God's sake. Seriously, G League, a starting guys that were in the G League last year. And here they are 24 and 11. What do you make of it?

Well, the only players that have played in all 35 games for them are Jamal Murray, Malik Beasley, Mason Plumley, Montemois, Nicola Yokic, and Trey Liles. Two of the guys on that list stand out to me. Malik Beasley and Montae Morris.

and the reason why is because we're talking about Beasley as a guy who was drafted 19th in the 2016 draft, and then with Morris, somebody who was drafted 51st in the 2017 drafts. And so for a team that has suffered the amount of injuries that they have, those are two guys that have elevated their play and really, really done a kick-ass job coming off their bench playing smart basketball.

I mean, Monti Morris still, I believe, leads the NBA and assist turnover ratio. Malik Beasley, all his athleticism that we saw at Florida State and the flashes of, you know, of attacking closeouts is starting to manifest for him. I didn't see last science game, but he had 23 points, which continues a trend over just the past week. He said 22 points, 21 points, 15 points, 23 points. So they're getting all these unexpected high-level performances from guys that you wouldn't

expect it from, in addition to Yokic, continuing to get better and better with Jom. Jamal Murray right now at only 21 years old, still being an inconsistent player, but here and there he's going to drop 46 points for you. He's going to push for 50. Jamal Murray, only 21 continuing to get better too. I think it speaks to the job that front office has done over the past three, four seasons of just finding talent at areas of the draft that you're not going to, you typically don't get it. And that that is the truest with Yokic, their star player who's drafted 41st. Well, and look no further than the guy you mentioned right at the beginning, Monte Morris. I mean, he's the 51st pick in the second round. A lot of those, you know, 50 first picks are sold, thrown away,

included in trades just to make them work. You know, and they snatch a guy who's a four-year point guard at Iowa State, who was certainly not a household name by any means. He's playing last year in the G.E. League and now this year he has been he it's it's van fleetish you know what he's doing because he shoot 47 you bring him off the bench he's 47% from the field he's 44% from three i mean i've seen this guy this year at least three or four times i've watched him where he you would never in a million years suspect it's his first year through the league he looks like a 35 year old point card

that's been doing this for over a decade right right right like a veteran And guess what? He might end up being one of those guys because he's such a stabilizer. He's such a smart player who doesn't make mistakes who can play off ball if you need him to

as a spot-up three-point shooter. I mean, Monta Morris' defense isn't great, but at least he tries on that end of the floor. What more could you want from a backup point card? Do you even remember him in college? I honestly don't. Yeah, with Van Blede and Monta-Morris and guys like Josh Hart as well,

you look at those guys that are upperclassmen and it's like, you know, great college player. He's probably going to be a pretty good role player in the NBA. And then yet these guys go undrafted, or undrafted that go in the second round every year. And, like, I look back at my rankings and I always kick myself with these upper classmen.

It's like, geez, you're drafting for, like, you want to hit a home run in the draft, right? You want to hit a home run, even if you have a pick in the 20s or the 30s, so you end up ranking these guys who you know are probably going to be solid pros behind guys with upside, I wonder if maybe, instead of swing for the fences... Is Kevin O'Connor coming around to my way of thinking?

No, I'm talking about, like, in the 30s. I'm not saying you draft Monta Morris with the 20th pick. We literally had this argument about Jalen Brunson. Literally had the exact argument. He's another guy, too, where it's like, I think I had him ranked 36th or 37th, and I look at some of the names ahead of him, and maybe some of those guys will pan out. But it's like, geez, you know, Jalen Brunson's going to be a good. good player, and he's already a solid player for Dallas. I look at guys like that, and it's like,

hmm, maybe they should be bumped up a little bit more than they are right now. Their age is certainly held against them. There's no way around. And it's happened for years. Yeah, I mean, it's not even necessarily the age that's held against them. As much as I think it's the potential of some of the younger guys or more athletic guys that is favored over them. That's right. We want to guess if they're going to be good rather than what we already know. is good. And so therefore, it's Van Vleet and it's Jay Crowder and it's Draymond Green and it's Malcolm Brogden on and on and on, right? Guys that he saw for a longness. It is an endless list of guys like that. I mean, the draft is hard, man. It's tough. That's why NBA teams miss every single

year. Yeah. So now we have given the love to the Denver Nuggets who deserve it. We have given the love to the Indiana Pacers who deserve it. Yesterday, It was one of those massive Kauai games. And this is right before he's about to head back to San Antonio tomorrow night. I bet he's going to get a real hero's welcome in San Antonio, I guess. Oh, boy. Yeah, I'm really, really excited just to see the response from that San Antonio crowd tomorrow. It's going to be as mad as we have probably heard a San Antonio crowd.

I mean, this has never happened before, right? Like, they'll probably put a crown on Tony Parker when he comes back. and visits for Charlotte, whereas has there been anybody that ever left that they would ever be mad about? Certainly, I can't recall a time where a San Antonio player has gone that it wasn't San Antonio's choice. I mean, listen, Kyle Anderson went back there this year and they give him a standing ovation. They loved their players, and that's been the thing with the Spurs for the last 20 years. We've never really been through this before with San Antonio, but I bet they're going to blew the absolute hell out of him.

What kind of odds would you give it that they give him a standing O? When he's announced, and then maybe boom during the game, but a standing ovation to start. A billion to one. There's no way. I mean, if you're giving me a billion to one odds, I'd find. There's absolutely no way. I put a buck on it at least that I could win a million. No.

There is absolutely no way they are going to cheer, Kauai Leonard. No way. No way. Yeah, I don't think so either. There's no way. And if they do chair them, they'll probably be booing by at the end of the night at least. If Kauai Leonard does what he did last night with 45 points on 16 of 22 and 17 free throw attempts. That's quite a lot, Chris.

It is a lot for Kauai Leonard, for sure. A lot of free throws. Imagine if that happened every night. All right, you want to do this now? Because people were sending me that Kauai Leonard went to the lane last night. How many of those times was he flailing around? How many times those was he throwing his hand in the air? kicking his neck back.

Not sure. All right. Obviously, you are trying to get under my skin about James Harden taking 27 free throws the other night. Of course, I watched every play of this game. Career high, 27 free throws. Just for you, Chris. Just for me.

As I have expressed my discontent with the amount of free throws that James Harden takes. This has led to roughly 48 to 72 hours of me. somehow being included in everybody's tagged arguments about James Harden, of which I couldn't care less. But this is what you deal with, right? When you tweet about James Harden and all of a sudden people seem to care, I think they think I care. Here's the thing. I made my statement, which is it's gross basketball. I never said that James Hardin isn't great.

Yet people have sent me like, oh, well, look at what he does. If he doesn't score free throws or stop fouling him or whatever other kind of nerdy crap they want to send me. here's the deal. I never said he wasn't great. I didn't say he's one of the best players in the NBA. I said his style of basketball is gross. I don't like it. And frankly, no one else, the majority of people don't either because there is nothing less entertaining in basketball than the free throw. Nothing. It grinds the game to a halt and then everybody's just sitting there and it kills the flow of the game. And so a guy taking 27, free throws. I didn't say he didn't get fouled either. I didn't say any of that. I said it's gross basketball, which it is. And people want to say, well, then just don't foul him. He is playing with the intent to get fouled. And you can bring me up everybody else's numbers. You can bring me up Janus's numbers. You can bring me up Joe L. M. B's numbers. If you want to talk about guys, by the way, neither of those guys shoot threes. This guy only takes 44% of his shots from two-pointed.

range, two point range, forget going to the basket, two point range at all. So less than 50% of his shots are even in the two point area. And yet he goes to the free throw line more than everybody else. And he is great at what he does, which is attempting to get foul. And that many times is the primary goal of the possession. And I don't like it. Have you ever seen that great YouTube video of highlights of fouls drawn you've ever seen that? I don't know I don't think so

oh it's because it doesn't exist nobody wants to watch that crap there's no there's no YouTube video of oh watch this look at these awesome drawn fouls you know what you do see though is you might see as part of highlight rails for a player and ones

you might you might see that which you might see that scoring against context and so we live in a highlight age. And so what people do is they see the highlights. You know what they show on ESPN? They show the eight shots he made. They don't show the 27 free throws or the times that he

got found. It's not fun to watch. I don't know how anyone could argue that. Why is that fun to watch? A guy go to the free throw line all the time. I just have a couple questions for you, Chris. I'm curious why, and this is not me arguing. Let me make that

clear. It's me trying to understand. What I'm curious about is why is it gross in your mind or why is it a problem with hardened style drawing fouls but not for large ball handlers that are driving from the perimeter drawing a high frequency of files like yannison acupun and ben simmons i mean those guys are posting higher free throw rates than hard in this season because i never feel like the intention of the play is to get fouled i feel like the intention of the play is to score and in many cases you are way better off foul that guy. So it's not, it's not the intent of LeBron James ever, ever to get filed when he's driving

to the room. He doesn't flail his head. Do you get the sense that when LeBron James, LeBron James gets a lot of superstar calls too? But do you watch LeBron James and think, wow, he's flailing around everywhere trying to get a call? Or he is making this play. I don't get that sense with James Harden. What? I don't. I think he does it, of course. He and he probably does it more than anybody else. but it doesn't happen every single drive to the rim. I don't know, type in on YouTube. I don't care about YouTube. I can literally pull up the NBA.com tracking data.

And like you can look that up right now, guys who attempt over 10 drives per game. And the percentage of possessions where they draw a personal file on that, number one is Spencer Dinwiddie, number two is LeBron James, number three is Zach Levine, Yonatan de Kupo,

and then James Hardin his fifth. He draws a personal file on 10.6. of his drives to the rim. Then you get Kauai Leonard, John Wall, DeMarters Rosen, De Aaron Fawkes. And how many on jump shots? This is just drives to the rim. No, I'm not.

No, no. No, no. We're talking about drives right now. No, how many are jumpers? He draws more falls on three-pointers than anybody else in the league by a wide margin. And he also takes more than anybody else. I don't know what the percentage of shots.

I don't have that in front of me. But right now we're talking about drives to the rim specifically. A lot of other guys also draw pretty similar amount of personal files on drives through, which according to NBA.com, is defined as when the player gains possession of the ball from behind the three-point arc and drives to the rim. So this is shots near the restricted area or in the restricted area. The point is, statistically, from NBA.com camera tracking data, he's fifth behind Spencer

Dindamity, LeBron James, Zach Levine, and Ina sent to the Kumpo. And I guess I'm just curious, again, why is it gross with Hardin, but not with larger ball hands? and not with other guys that draw a similar amount. Okay, because those guys, their percentage of shots within the two-point area, are much greater, much greater. Look at where their shots are taken from, Kevin. This is a ridiculous stat unless you are going to tell me. No, but I'm talking specifically about drives to the room.

Only drives to the rim. That's the only thing you want to talk about. Hardin takes 19 of them for a game, which is more than anybody. 19 drives to the room per game. So you're talking about two-point attempts, but he drives more than anybody else to the rim. So he leads the NBA and drives the rim. He might not lead in field goal attempts from two-point range,

but he leads to the rim. He also leads in free-throw attempts by a wide margin. By a wide margin. That might have to do with him leading in drives, too, with the rocket system, which maybe it's just the system. No, you're telling me he's fifth, Kevin. So how is he leading the league in free throw? taken if you tell me, well, why doesn't it bother you? Because.

No, I mean, I'm just curious. That was my original question. Okay, because you fouled these other guys, because the reason you foul these other guys is because it's a much less lower proposition. You make them go earn it from the free throw line, right? Everybody knows that that is not the case with James Harden. He is most deficient. It's an 85% proposition. I'm not telling you that the guy doesn't get fouled. What I'm telling you is if there are a million YouTube videos of a guy flopping, flailing, and acting like he was shot by a sniper when he's driving to the basket of Janus Hunter de Kumpo, of which I'm unaware, then by all means, let me know.

So what you're saying brings to mind an argument that I was in the minority a couple years ago with Drayvon Green kicking. Yes, Drayvon Green kicked more than anybody else. but you could also watch any other big man coming down with a rebound in traffic and see their leg flailing up. It's just a natural kinetic motion that happens with a lot of big men.

Maybe with Dream on it happen a little bit more than anybody else because he's not having the same control of his body. Are you claiming that other people flop and flail and attempt to draw fouls? They changed a fucking rule for James Hardin with the rip-through. They literally changed a rule.

Wasn't it the KD rip-through? Oh, you're talking. Okay, never mind. Sorry. Yeah. Where do you think KD got it? I mean, it's what the guy does. From his ex-teammate, James Hart.

Hard to believe all three of those guys were on the same team. Like, that still baffles my mind. It does baffle the mind. If you, listen, if you watch the games that he has played and anybody wants to tell me that watching a guy go to the free throw line all the time and killing all flow to the game is. enjoyable basketball to watch. I don't know what to tell you.

It's like watching a shitty movie and then saying, but I really enjoyed the cinematography. I mean, what are we talking about here? I'll respond to that in a second. I have one other question for you, though. When it comes to the traveling accusations with Hardin,

yes, he travels. A lot of players travel, though, and that's where I tend to fall with this. Like, there's a lot of players who travel while dribbling toward the rim. And with Hardin, it's a little different. I mean, he travels sometimes, Not all the time.

He travels when he's moving away from the rim on step-back jumpers. And we haven't really seen a guy like this that has used the quote-unquote zero step, which is when you gain possession of the ball and that initial step is considered zero before one, two. There hasn't been a guy who's used it like Hardin has for his step-back jumper, right? And some of the time it's a travel, but not all the time. But what is typical is referees, I think, are generally good. Like basketball is a hard game to officiate. But one thing they typically stink at is calling traveling because it's so hard to spot with the game moving so fast when you're looking for so much.

So with Hardin, he has used that to his advantage. And he has a better stepback jumper than perhaps anybody ever. It is his trademark move. And I think part of the reason why people get so annoyed with it with him is because we are used to players traveling moving toward the room. Like that is so normal. And it happens every single night, every single quarter. very often. But with Hardin, it's different.

And I think that makes it a little bit more frustrating because we're just not used to it. I give the refs a little bit of a break on this because I've watched it up close and personal. The reason that they don't catch it, you know why? Because they're waiting for a pinky to land on his elbow. Oh, please. That's what they're waiting for because he has trained them to blow the whistle no matter what. If anybody's within breathing space of him. Instead of Pavlov's dogs, it's Hardin's refs, is that what it is?

If you want to tell me that all of these other players that go to the free throw line all the time, flop and flail into defenders and initiate contact and kick their neck back constantly in attempts to get calls, then by all means do that. But that's just not true. It's just not. The way he goes about it with attempting to get fouled all of the time, Listen, he is exposing a loophole. It is certainly very efficient.

I don't find it fun basketball to watch. I don't find somebody dribbling the ball for 15 seconds and then kicking their head back and getting you to locking your arm in between their arms so they can throw both of their arms up in the air and say, oh, and then go into the free throw line. That's not fun to me. Who likes watching free throws? Who likes watching fouls?

Who wants to see that? I think it's disappointing that so many people share your failings. And I think it's okay to feel that way. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way. You like free throws? I remember when I was like 16 years old, there was one point where it was like I was a real classic rock snob when I was a teen.

And I remember like thinking of one of my friends, Dana loves Taylor Swift. And it's like, how do you like Taylor Swift? Or like, how do you like Justin Beaver? And then there came a point in my life where I was like, Oh, it's no different than me liking Jimmy Hendricks. Are you kidding me? People just like different things.

Are you trying to act like, oh, I grew up and all of a sudden started to appreciate. No, it's not that I grew up. Horrible basketball. It's the point is that people like different things. People have different tastes. And for Hardin, he's a tough acquired taste. I look at him as like some people like Math Rock. I don't really care for Math Rock, but some people do it.

What is it? What the hell is that? Some people like jazz. Some people hate jazz. What is math rock? Rock about math? Trust the math, Chris. That's what the rock is to. What is it? You've never heard of that. I don't even know what that is. Isaac, can we pull up like some math rock?

Can we not listen to math rock, actually? It's not fun. Yeah. Not very fun to listen to. It's a style of indie rock that's like that's influenced by like serialist music complex time signatures

yeah a lot of complex times signatures weird sounding chords and like changes and tempo and time signatures and yeah it's not what you hear on the radio typical four four time oh boy but the point I'm really gonna have to look into this

are you comparing James Harden to math rock yes my point is it sounds it sounds applicable my point is this though Chris is that I'm less interested in arguing about what people like and don't like because tastes are different, right? That's true. In music, movies, so like you mentioned earlier, people like, oh, the cinematography was outstanding. There are some people that watch movies and that's what they take away from

it. Like, they are just blown away. Like, it's what they love. Maybe they'll come away and be like, oh, the script wasn't great. You know, the acting could have been better, but some people watch movies that way. And those people are called weirdos. That's what they're called. No, they shouldn't be. And that's too bad. And so, like, if I'm a weirdo for loving, If I'm a weirdo for loving James Hardin's ability to use his body to manipulate defenders to create space for stepback jumpers for having one of the best handles in the NBA today, if I'm weird for that, so what. And he draws a lot of files. I don't let that taint my enjoyment of his brilliance as a scorer. I tweeted the other day, his numbers, the past five seasons in comparison to Dwayne Wade, Jerry West, and Oscar Roberts.

And you can go down the list to other guys as well, like Alan Ivers. he's putting up this season and the past five seasons are historic. And I understand if people don't like that style of play, it's fine. It's okay. If you don't like it, whatever. But I think it's disappointing that it's tainting the greatness that we're seeing from him. He's having one of the greatest scoring seasons ever again, and he's continuing his elite scoring success from the past five years.

I just think it's disappointing that it's not more appreciated. I don't even know what to say. I think you're right, Kevin. People, the same way they give a standing ovation for LeBron James Dunking on someone, they give a standing ovation for James Hardin drawing another foul, because it's just so exciting. But why focus on that so much? Why is it with Hardin?

He's a 27 free throws. Yeah, that was one game. Okay, he has infinitely more free throws made than he has field goals made over his career. That is not true of anybody. He's one of the most unique players ever. That's for damn sure. Like, you're right about that. It's a weird style.

We haven't seen a guy to this extreme level before. So not appreciating a guy that scores more that has made more free throws than more field goals by a large number over the course of his career. And that's not true of any other great players is somehow somebody not being high-minded enough to appreciate it. People don't like free throws. It's not about being high-minded or anything. There's nothing to do with it for what it's worth. like drawing fouls and people don't like free throws. There's nothing to do with that, Chris.

It simply has to do with just I wish people appreciate it anymore. That's all. I wish he would stop flopping and flailing around. That's what I wish. It's fine. But I think part of that, like I mentioned with Dream on and kicking earlier, part of that is just due to the reputation when you can look at the numbers, you can watch the film and see that this happens with other players too.

And I just find an interesting how with him, with his style of drawing files, Maybe he doesn't just barrel into people to draw fouls like some larger players do. That's their technique, you know, just barreling into a player and then they naturally get filed with Hardin. Sometimes he just used a little bit more finesse to get foul. I think there's a quote that I saw from Jerry West. Someone tweeted this to me the other day. Jerry West said in his book, quickness in the ability to draw falls as an art. There are people who have great quickness who don't know how to draw falls.

And that's true. hardened to somebody who is better than anybody at using his body to manipulate defenders to draw files. And I understand that some people don't like that. No, that's perfectly basic. You greatly appreciate that skill. I resent it. Yeah. Yeah.

We like different things. We like different things. That's it. It's really that simple. And I am with 99% of the basketball watching population that don't like free throws. That's okay. All right. Before we go on, let's quickly discuss our NBA watch of the night.

Today is Wednesday, January 2nd, and the big game going on at 8 p.m. Eastern is the Minnesota Timberwolves at the Boston Celtics on ESPN. That is going to be the national TV game that everybody can watch at 7th Central 8 Eastern. But it sounds, Kiv, like Minnesota is going to be down some guys going into this game. Yeah, Tom Timito said today that most of the first. Most likely, Jeff Teague, Derek Rose, and Robert Covington will be out. But the game is still going to be interesting. With Carl Anthony Towns this past week, scored 31, 34, 28 points. He's been on a tier.

He had that gigantic 34.18 rebounds, 7 assists, 6 block, 3-steal game against Miami on Sunday. And then with Boston, they've gotten back on track as of late, getting a handful of impressive performances from Jalen Brown lately, Carrie Irving, his past month in December was just outrageous, a lot of star power on tonight's game and it was an intriguing matchup. Well, I saw Boston since we last spoke. I saw them in person and the Grizzlies were killing them at halftime and then the second half Boston came roaring back and ended up winning the game.

I saw one of the strangest things I have seen at a half time that you just don't normally see. So I'm walking back, you know how if you're at an arena and you walk back to like where the media room is? Yeah. Many times you will walk by a corridor that would like lead to the locker room, right? And so anyways, as I'm walking back towards that way, I'm walking by where the Celtics would be coming out of the tunnel.

And in this like hallway right next to me, there stands Kyrie Irving. and he is having this discussion with Danny Aange right there at halftime. You do not see this often. And whatever Danny Ains said to him worked because he came back out in the second half and he was awesome. But I thought that was very bizarre, very rarely. I don't know if I've ever seen a general manager and a player in the middle of a game talking. But this was at halftime and they were there for a good little while. and Aange and Grosbeck, one of the owners, were both at the game, but I had never seen that before.

And obviously, Kyrie was great in the second half of that game and the Celtics ended up winning that game. But it stood out to me greatly because it's very uncommon in the midst of the actual 48 minutes that you would see a conversation between two guys like that. But there I was. I was like, this is bizarre. And they were both standing there. I don't know what they were talking about. I didn't eavesdrop. But, I mean, they were away from everybody else.

Like, no other Celtic was around. Nobody else was around. No coach was around, nothing. It was just Ainge and Kyrie standing in the hallway. I didn't know what it was about. Whatever, Danny said to Kyrie Irving, he must have passed along to Marcus Morris as well, who was outstanding in that game. Who, by the way, Marcus Morris, playing the best basketball of his life this season for the Celtics.

Oh, yeah. He's, I mean, the other thing is he's one of those that when you see him in person, much, much bigger than you think. He is huge. Oh, just huge. He's six to end and broad as all get out. And he steps out to three and the shot looks good. And, yeah, they got a lot of talent on that team.

That's for sure. Because Jason Tatum had one of the most spectacular dunks I've ever seen in my life in person on a putback. But he didn't do much at all in that game. And it didn't particularly matter because they've got other guys that could step up. But anyway, yeah, those. one of those strange ones. They're certainly fun to watch play. That'll be a fun one tonight. Yeah, Minnesota, at Boston.

And remember, if you want to watch every NBA game, subscribe to NBA League Pass on NBA.com, Amazon, or your local cable or satellite provider. All right, Kevin. Five questions. Oh, yeah. For 2019 in the NBA season. The team in the Western Conference

with the best chance to knock off the Warriors is... The Memphis Grizzlies. I'm only... kidding. I don't want to get back in the vaccine conversation we were just having, but I think if Chris Paul is healthy, it's the Houston Rockets, which is a question, if Chris Paul's healthy, that's quite a qualifier.

But if he's not, it's got to be the L.A. Lakers just because of LeBron James, right? I say Oklahoma City. I think Oklahoma City could do the whole, we out rebound you by a lot and play great, great defense. That 04 pistons type of style, right? I just don't think that, you know, last year, Houston was able to do it by defensively

being able to hold them down and play them in low-scoring games. Oklahoma City kind of looks like the team, I think, that would be able to do that this year. If Russell Westbrook could fix himself, and there's been flashes over the past couple days, he had a huge game against Phoenix and then against Dallas. Granted, those aren't great teams, but there's been some flashes of him fixing his offense, which has been just dismal this season at scoring the ball.

So if he's able to even just get on a hot streak in a series, then in addition to them having an elite defense, maybe they have a shot. I think that's a good choice, too. Okay, Blank will end up the MVP. Earlier, we talked about Kauai Leonard and his monster game. Obviously, we've talked a lot about Hardin and the tear that he has been on. When it's all said and done,

I think we both thought Janus had a great chance at the beginning of the season. I would still say Janus, yeah. I think it's Janus. I think so, too. Number three, Carmelo Anthony plays over, under, 100 more NBA games in his career. Under. Under.

50. I'll take the under still. Yeah. One. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. I'll tell you what, man. Like, we're now at two months, right?

Two months with him not playing. Oh, boy. I mean, he might be under. Might be under, yeah. You think he plays in the playoffs? I'll take the over for one. I think somebody's... You think he plays in the playoffs for somebody.

I can see it. I don't know. I'm surprised Carmelo Anthony was one of your five questions. He's won't. I mean, the guy's been an all-star and a premier player for, like, the last 15 years, Kevin. Oh, I know. big, big name. Yeah.

And he is without job. You know, the new cycle moves so fast. Carmelo is the point of his career where he's on the way out. It just, you know, we move on quickly in the NBA. I guess so. Oh, this is a good one. And I say that because I wrote it. The surprise team.

You're not biased at all. The surprise team of 2019. So two years ago, we had the 1130 Miami Heat go, 30 and 11, something like that, like down the stretch. Last year, it was the Utah Jazz, who went absolutely bonkers post-January, and were able to get themselves not only in the playoffs firmly, but also a first round win.

If there is a Miami of two years ago, a jazz of last year, what do you think? It's got to be the Utah Jazz, right? Again. I think it has to be. When you currently look at the standings and where teams are at, I think it has to be Utah. They're five and five in their last 10, but their defense has been elite since Thanksgiving. I believe it's second behind Indiana since Thanksgiving still.

So if their offense is able to get better, then they seem like a strong candidate for that. Who do you have in mind for that? I don't know if we will have another one of those teams that reels off the 30 and 10. You know what I'm saying? Because that's roughly about what both of those teams were. It's hard to not look at the Rockets right now. I mean, I didn't choose them because they're already kind of. They already are, but I mean, they're 21 and 15.

And so if they ended up with 50 wins, that'd be pretty incredible. Oh, yeah. I mean, you look at this run recently for Houston, winning 10 of 11 games led by James Hardin scoring 40 points per game with a true shooting of like 64. percent, racking up assists and rebounds. I mean, this stretch has been, regardless of everything we talked about earlier, this has just been ridiculous to watch.

He's unreal. It's not fair to say because either of the other, you know, the teams that we were presumptive favorites at the beginning of the season, we could see both of them doing it, which are the Celtics and Golden State. I mean, again, if they went 30 and 10 down the stretch, that's going to get them to a pretty high number, but we didn't expect them to be 25 and 13 for the Warriors and 21 and 15 for the Celtics at this point right now. So that's not particularly fair, right? It's almost like the teams that we expected to be awesome, like Boston, like Golden State, like Houston, are probably

the best guesses. But if we're trying to find somebody that's like kind of on the outside looking in like Miami once was, like Utah once. was, I guess I could go with you on Utah. Because they are on the outside looking in. I don't think that you look at the kings, the grizzlies, the mavericks, the timber wolves, the pelicans. I don't see any of them being able to pull that off.

The Lakers, if they got LeBron back, possible, but doubtful. And then in the Eastern Conference, the wizard, now that they've gotten John Wall out of their system. Did you see it? You know what I mean? Like Otto Porter and Brad Beale?

Like have a new lease on life? You know, it's like we talked about an argument on Twitter last December, almost a year to the day. I think it was December 30th, 2017 when we had this argument on Twitter about how the Grizzlies losing Conley and Gasol was probably for the best. They'd get a chance at a top pick with Washington. If they get worse without John Wall instead of better. If they get worse. I don't think that that's going to happen. I don't.

We'll see. We'll see. I mean, last year with Satteransky moving the ball around, you know, Bradley Bale's going to get more picking on all opportunities because he knew dimensions of his game. It's going to be interesting to watch this team without wall. You know, what's interesting, when I saw that news come out, that is exactly how the Conley injury was described.

Oh, yeah. With the Bonesboro and the Achilles. Oh, and it's a bitch. I mean, it's going to take him a long time to get back, and he wasn't in great shape already. Like, he was already a guy that, when everybody saw him during the summer, they thought he had blown up a little bit.

You know, when you have to be, with that rehab process is bad and obviously, you can't be doing a ton of exercise. And it didn't look like John Wall did a ton of exercise even when he was healthy. Well, this off-season. Either way, they should be taking a pay from the Grizzlies Playbook and tank in the helicopter.

I mean, not the Grizzlies tank, but they should be trying to fall down the standings. I think they'll make the playoffs. How about that? for the bests if they do. Easily for the worst if they do. Chris, if the Grizzlies made the playoffs as an eight seat and got smoked in the first round last year,

they wouldn't have Jaron Jackson. That's true. That is true. And if the Wizards make the playoffs and get pounded in the first round by Milwaukee, they're not going to have a chance at Zion or RJ Barrett or even like a lesser prospect, like Kevin Porter, someone like that. I'm glad you said this, Kevin.

because the last one is the 2019 number one pick in the NBA draft will be. Zion Williamson. Really? I think so. You think it is without question? Because you answered that fast. I don't think it's without question. There are still NBA people that I've talked to that

have RJ Barrett, Zion's teammate at Duke, rank number one. There's people who still view him as a better all-around pro. So no. I think it depends on which team ends up landing the pick. And with the new lottery odds, the flattened odds, there's an increased chance a team, you know, with the eighth or ninth or tenth best odds could jump up to that spot. So I think it'll be Zion or RJ Barrett. I just, I don't see anybody else

elevating to that number one spot besides those two. But I would lean towards Zion. Yeah. This kid at Murray State's got a ton of talk, man. People, I've been reading a lot of stuff about him. John Rantz is killing it. Yeah. Sophomore point guard. He even got a shout out on when Durant did that podcast with Simmons. That was one of the first times. That was. I saw him get big pub. He was, like when he was asked about, which was an obvious, Kevin Durant really keeps up with all this.

Because he shouted out the kid, which I thought was interesting. I mean, you got obviously very busy when you are an NBA player and everybody knows Zion, but there it was Kevin Durant talking about John Morant.

John Morant is the type of player who his ball handling ability is elite. Like he can get anywhere on the floor that he wants. His three-pointer needs to get better, but he can get to the rim at Warrant. will. As he develops and gets stronger, he could be a guy who draws a lot of files on the NBA. I'm just saying, he could be one of those guys that gets to the room and just draw.

How did South Carolina let him get out of the state? I guess late bloomer, you know? Yeah. But, I mean, that would have been right after they made the final four, right? He's a sophomore. That'd have been right after South Carolina was there the final four. Could have brought this kid in. Wow. He's exciting. sure. I think he's, I think he could easily play into the top five conversation, not number one, but top five conversation with his performance. That's going to do it for today's show, Kevin. I hope you enjoy your afternoon of watching James Harden, Drawfowls. Yeah. Woo! Math rock. Math rock, yeah. And cinematography.

Happy New Year, Chris. I'm looking forward to another year doing this with you. It's been great. Be new year to you. I am too. Thanks to Isaac Lee, as always. It's going to do it for today's show. If you dig with your hand, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, five stars, five stars. It really helps. And we will talk to you next week.